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elotar wrote:
What chance got riptyde, which is cheaper and looks much less durable than LR,to be one shoted by melta?

Obviously LRs need ceramite plating and count as dozer blades(or just ignore terrain ) free of charge.

Then it need something to keep all it's weapons normally firing on the move.

Then it needs smth like 5++, and/or more hp

And then price reduction to 200+/- points

Yes, but the Riptide can be one-shoted by a psylincer whilst the Land Raider cannot.

How likely is that, though? And how often does it actually happen? What's the range on the psylincer?

Martel732 wrote:
How likely is that, though? And how often does it actually happen? What's the range on the psylincer?

24" and just saiyan and a Land Raider is also unlikely to be one-shotted too due to the 7th vehicle damage chart.

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
How likely is that, though? And how often does it actually happen? What's the range on the psylincer?

24" and just saiyan and a Land Raider is also unlikely to be one-shotted too due to the 7th vehicle damage chart.

I'm not the one complaining about the one-shot thing. I'm complaining, because like 66% of all Imperial equipment, it can't decide what it's actual job is and fails at all jobs for its point cost. The LR is one of the most ignorable things in the marine codex given its cost.

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
How likely is that, though? And how often does it actually happen? What's the range on the psylincer?

24" and just saiyan and a Land Raider is also unlikely to be one-shotted too due to the 7th vehicle damage chart.

I'm not the one complaining about the one-shot thing. I'm complaining, because like 66% of all Imperial equipment, it can't decide what it's actual job is and fails at all jobs for its point cost. The LR is one of the most ignorable things in the marine codex given its cost.

It is highly resilient though. I hate it when CSM use one with a dirge caster and drives it right at my Tau as I can't kill it so I lose my overwatch :(

Just go have a Riptide step on it. I've seen so many LRs destroyed that way. CSM doesn't have grav; your Riptides are effectively immortal against their shooting attacks.

LRs are really not good. Bad, even. They're just so expensive for what they are supposed to do.

Martel732 wrote:
Just go have a Riptide step on it. I've seen so many LRs destroyed that way. CSM doesn't have grav; your Riptides are effectively immortal against their shooting attacks.

LRs are really not good. Bad, even. They're just so expensive for what they are supposed to do.

How? Str 9 nova charge will glance it on a 5+ and if it smashes it glances on a 4+ with one die only...

I don't use Riptides anymore and when I used to they would often be destroyed by a nurgle biker squad with burgle lord since I never kept them hidden at the back like a dick.

I guess it's harder after the smash nerf, but still doable.

Just put a fire warrior squad or something else throwaway in front of it.

If he tank shocks you, his dudes can't get out.
If his dudes get out, the throwaway squad is in the way.
Then murder them with bullets on your next turn. Let the LR do whatever it wants. There's almost no way for it to pay for itself with the squad inside neutralized.

Once his army is just a land raider, then you can start taking the long shots at it, like a smash from a riptide and such.

What if we made the Land Raider able to both tank-shock and let people out during the same turn? There's not much that'd it'd care about not running over.

Another fix could of course be to make it so that there's a unit that isn't Assault Terminators that is actually worth putting inside, but even then the Land Raider itself would be rather iffy at best.

Make it Av 15-15-14 and suddenly its WAY better.
I don't know if I'm evn being serious here, because I know this would never fly by ANY xeno players.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:What if we made the Land Raider able to both tank-shock and let people out during the same turn? There's not much that'd it'd care about not running over.

Another fix could of course be to make it so that there's a unit that isn't Assault Terminators that is actually worth putting inside, but even then the Land Raider itself would be rather iffy at best.

There are other units worth putting in one. I run 15 blood claws and a wolf priest, with the Wulfen stone, in a LRC. You ever seen what happens when 15 marines, doing 4 attacks each at S5, rerolling ones to hit plus another marine doing 5 S8 attacks gets stuck in to CC? It's beautiful. And without the Land Raider, there'd be no chance of them all surviving to get into CC.

I'll be honest, I love the Land Raider. Is it overpriced? Hells to the yes, you won't hear an argument there from me. When you compare it to say, the Stormwolf, which has Jink, HtH, Ceramite plating, tl helfrost cannon, tl lascannon, 2 tl multi-melta, while still having PotMS and Assault Vehicle, for 25 points less, and can still carry the same 16 man squad, it definitely raises some big questions about what orifice GW pulled the 240-260pt cost for Land Raiders out of.

The Land Raider is overpriced, no doubt. But I definitely don't think it's a useless unit. It packs some decent dakka, especially the Crusader, and they can give a hard hitting unit some decent protection on their way into CC. Or multiple units, if utilized right. I tend to use mine like a moving shield.

But, I did come to realize a while back that SW tend to have different perspectives on certain units compared to other SM players, so YMMV.

DoomShakaLaka wrote:Make it Av 15-15-14 and suddenly its WAY better.
I don't know if I'm evn being serious here, because I know this would never fly by ANY xeno players.

Of course not, because how dare Marine players want to be balanced compared to xenos armies.

What about the 12,96 % chance of a melta weapon destroying a Land Raider, making an average of 7,7 shots needed for every one-shot kill? (Within half range of course). Is it good? Should it be lowered?

Making it super heavy would give it:
12" move and still fire all weapons at full BS
Fire weapons at different targets (suddenly the lascannon/heavy bolter is less of a mismatch)
Cannot be stunned, immobilized or exploded, significantly helping boost its survive-ability

The cost of the raider and an weak melee unit inside (say a CSM) is already equal to the cost of an Imperial Knight. It has similar firepower and vastly inferior survivability and melee potential (the guys inside). I think making it super heavy would definetly help justify it as a unit that is allegedly supposed to be 'nearly impervious to all save the most destructive weaponry' and be able to 'deliver punishing fire support capable of decimating enemy infantry and armour alike.'

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Make it Av 15-15-14 and suddenly its WAY better.
I don't know if I'm evn being serious here, because I know this would never fly by ANY xeno players.

Maybe AV 15 on the front but keep the side AV as 14.

240ish points for a land raider. I pay more then that for my Morkanaut, especially when you give it the 5++ against shooting, which is the only reason to take it. So im spending I think 300+ pts for a Regular Walker, 2 TL Big Shootas, 2 TL Rokkitz, KMB and KMK. 13/13/12 with 4 HPs and the 5++ invul bubble (6in). I have BS2 because even my expensive units don't get access to Gitfindas for some F*cking reason. I can't split fire, I can only care 6 models and its not an assault transport. So why, dear god, are you SM players complaining about your assault vehicle which has 2 TL S9 weapons that can destroy my Naut in a single turn of firing while in return I have a KMB and a KMK that will probably miss/get hot and only glance on a 6. Ohh I do have TL rokkitz which have a 50/50 chance of hitting so 1 hit and glance on a 6......3 weapons which probably won't hit and only glance on a 6. When I played Marines I used my Landraider to transport termies to where I needed reinforcements and I utilized it and my Las Pred as Anti tank weapons. my LR survived every game I played and demonstrated his worth by killing tanks and infantry in excess of his points cost. If you don't like the vehicle don't take it, but arguing about how its under powered and needs more for less is the same as me complaining about my Naut needing a massive upgrade to make it feasible, I think it does and no other race does. :-p

 Ghazkuul wrote:
240ish points for a land raider. I pay more then that for my Morkanaut, especially when you give it the 5++ against shooting, which is the only reason to take it. So im spending I think 300+ pts for a Regular Walker, 2 TL Big Shootas, 2 TL Rokkitz, KMB and KMK. 13/13/12 with 4 HPs and the 5++ invul bubble (6in). I have BS2 because even my expensive units don't get access to Gitfindas for some F*cking reason. I can't split fire, I can only care 6 models and its not an assault transport. So why, dear god, are you SM players complaining about your assault vehicle which has 2 TL S9 weapons that can destroy my Naut in a single turn of firing while in return I have a KMB and a KMK that will probably miss/get hot and only glance on a 6. Ohh I do have TL rokkitz which have a 50/50 chance of hitting so 1 hit and glance on a 6......3 weapons which probably won't hit and only glance on a 6. When I played Marines I used my Landraider to transport termies to where I needed reinforcements and I utilized it and my Las Pred as Anti tank weapons. my LR survived every game I played and demonstrated his worth by killing tanks and infantry in excess of his points cost. If you don't like the vehicle don't take it, but arguing about how its under powered and needs more for less is the same as me complaining about my Naut needing a massive upgrade to make it feasible, I think it does and no other race does. :-p

It is underpowered. I show this every time I go up against one. Using the LR/Terminator combo is a good way to take C:SM and lose to my BA when you should be wiping the map with me. And my list is kind to LRs compared to some of the BA lists on this site. They'll drop so much cheap melta all over you that your LR will look like a Rhino.

Martel732 wrote:
Take off the guns and make it cheaper. Done. The concept of double duty transporting along with shooting is terrible.

And make it an oversized rhino? No thanks.

 scuzz_bucket wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Take off the guns and make it cheaper. Done. The concept of double duty transporting along with shooting is terrible.

And make it an oversized rhino? No thanks.

It would be a massive improvement, though.

For those who want a Rhino, it would be an improvement. For those who want a Rhino/Leman Russ cross, it'd be a massive step down.

Aren't there already super heavy transports, if that's what you're looking for? With maximum transport and minimum firepower?

Bharring wrote:
For those who want a Rhino, it would be an improvement. For those who want a Rhino/Leman Russ cross, it'd be a massive step down.

Aren't there already super heavy transports, if that's what you're looking for? With maximum transport and minimum firepower?

You can't cross Rhino/Leman Russ successfully with 40K's vehicles rules. You will necessarily be paying for abilities that can you can't use. It's much better to have one tank do nothing but shoot and have another do nothing but transport than have a single tank that does both halfway.

The LRs firepower/pt is already a joke. It's even worse on the turns it has to move. Taking the guns off is not a massive step down from its current effective firepower/pt.

Once again, you want, in your Marine army, a specialist unit that does one job very well.

I want, in my Marine army, units that can threaten in multiple ways. May not do any one task as efficiently, but the ability to do one of several options yields a lot of tactical flexibility.

Marines are, both by fluff and mechanics, intended to be better at several things other their main purpose than equally-elite specialists from other factions. So, that anti-MC shooty DE unit is better at dropping an MC at range than the Marine one, but the Marine one can pop that Devilfish or Raider parked in front of them.

Guard are a lot more focused. Leman Russes are MBTs. Guardsmen are small arms firepower in high volume. They generally outshoot Marines, but Marines are much better in melee.

Orkz smash face. But Marines shoot them hard.

DE Eldar are all about excess. Their guns hit very hard very fast, and have lots of tricks, but have no staying power.

Necrons are slow and sturdy, but have few tricks, and not as killy.

Marines do it all, but a little worse than anything. Because that's what a Marine is. Skilled at and equipped for any general role. Not as cost-effective at any one, because he can do any other in a pinch.

Please don't make my Marines just bigger-looking Guardsmen. I like the way they are. But if you play them like Guardsmen, why are you surprised that they aren't as good at being Guardsmen as IG.

(And about this whole 'poor IoM', how many Marine lists were in the top 8 in the LVO? And how many Eldar lists?)

"May not do any one task as efficiently, but the ability to do one of several options yields a lot of tactical flexibility"

Flexibility without efficacy is useless. It has to be able to do the multiple jobs well, which it can't.

"Once again, you want, in your Marine army, a specialist unit that does one job very well. "

Yes, because that's what works.

"Marines do it all, but a little worse than anything"

I'd argue a lot worse. But maybe familiarity breeds contempt.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
240ish points for a land raider. I pay more then that for my Morkanaut, especially when you give it the 5++ against shooting, which is the only reason to take it. So im spending I think 300+ pts for a Regular Walker, 2 TL Big Shootas, 2 TL Rokkitz, KMB and KMK. 13/13/12 with 4 HPs and the 5++ invul bubble (6in). I have BS2 because even my expensive units don't get access to Gitfindas for some F*cking reason. I can't split fire, I can only care 6 models and its not an assault transport. So why, dear god, are you SM players complaining about your assault vehicle which has 2 TL S9 weapons that can destroy my Naut in a single turn of firing while in return I have a KMB and a KMK that will probably miss/get hot and only glance on a 6. Ohh I do have TL rokkitz which have a 50/50 chance of hitting so 1 hit and glance on a 6......3 weapons which probably won't hit and only glance on a 6. When I played Marines I used my Landraider to transport termies to where I needed reinforcements and I utilized it and my Las Pred as Anti tank weapons. my LR survived every game I played and demonstrated his worth by killing tanks and infantry in excess of his points cost. If you don't like the vehicle don't take it, but arguing about how its under powered and needs more for less is the same as me complaining about my Naut needing a massive upgrade to make it feasible, I think it does and no other race does. :-p

I would interject that while all that is valid, you're coming from the viewpoint of an Ork player. Which is to say, you're coming from the viewpoint of an army that is fairly balanced compared to Marines. It's why I love playing against Orks; it's a fair fight. If everything were Marines vs Orks, I wouldn't have a complaint about the cost or abilities of just about any unit in either army. It's when you look at the OP cheesefest that many other Xenos armies have that Space Marines (and Orks) are overcosted and underpowered.

We could, of course, just fix the power balance the other way, make the OP xenos units cost more, but I see that causeing a lot more butthurt than buffing marines up a bit. And for what it's worth, there are quite a few buffs I think Orks should get, too. I can't speak for anyone else in this thread, but I'm not after advantage, just balance.

Hell, I'm the imperial player who thinks the Stompa should cost 150pts less, because right now the IK is more cost effective, hands down.

yes SM and Orks haven't gotten much love in recent the recent codex's but at the same time LR have been the bane of my existence as an ork player for awhile. Incredibly hard to pop and assault termies tend to eat my valuable back line units and ruin my BWs. I consider them over priced compared to certain other units, but by far and wide they are effective at what they do, even if Martel thinks all marines are garbage and need a 2++. Everyone complains about how LRs die to Meltas....well thats the point of a melta gun now isn't it? Anti-Tank. Meltas are designed to Mess up heavy armor, LRs are designed to kill tanks and drop off assault terminators at a specified point. Regardless if your mad at people for bringing a specialized list designed to kill vehicles then I should be mad at everyone I play who brings lots of Anti-infantry weapons. In fact by that logic, ork boyz are over priced and "useless" they clearly need a massive buff or a point reduction........See doesn't make much sense to complain about things like that does it?

I'm down for army wide point reductions all across c:SM and orks if everyone else agrees!

 Ghazkuul wrote:
yes SM and Orks haven't gotten much love in recent the recent codex's but at the same time LR have been the bane of my existence as an ork player for awhile. Incredibly hard to pop and assault termies tend to eat my valuable back line units and ruin my BWs. I consider them over priced compared to certain other units, but by far and wide they are effective at what they do, even if Martel thinks all marines are garbage and need a 2++. Everyone complains about how LRs die to Meltas....well thats the point of a melta gun now isn't it? Anti-Tank. Meltas are designed to Mess up heavy armor, LRs are designed to kill tanks and drop off assault terminators at a specified point. Regardless if your mad at people for bringing a specialized list designed to kill vehicles then I should be mad at everyone I play who brings lots of Anti-infantry weapons. In fact by that logic, ork boyz are over priced and "useless" they clearly need a massive buff or a point reduction........See doesn't make much sense to complain about things like that does it?

I'm not complaining about the melta. The split nature of the tank's role makes it liability in a list.

I never said all marines are garbage. Please stop with the hyperbole. Units in the marine list that can be properly specialized are just fine. The LR and terminators don't qualify. They fail at every job assigned to them. Even your own statement makes no sense. A unit can not be both cost effective and overpriced.

It's also worth nothing that Ork boyz are sufficiently cheap that many anti-infantry options that are viable against them are not cost effective. Melta is extremely cost effective against LRs.

I said they are Overpriced compared to certain other units. Some units in this game are broken and we all know it. Don't take things I say out of context. You have argued that the LR is useless and that terminators are useless. You probably have said the same about other marine units but im not compelled to go look for your posts. Regardless Im not trying to make this a bash fest, im just pointing out that with the applications of tactics and a bit of luck both terminators and land raiders are great at what they do. A land raider can move 12 and still fire a TL LC at full BS using POTMS very few vehicles can do that. You don't like the Land raider because its not as shooty as a tank and your biggest complaint about its transport part is that it can be immobilized by DT. I agree that a simple Dozer blade upgrade would be acceptable but the rest of the proposed ideas make a LR OP as hell. It is already damned hard to pop unless you focus fire lots of anti tank against it. I would be fine with it being able to take cermite plating but only at a large point increase 30+. because realistically meltas are the only sure fire way to take a land raider out.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I said they are Overpriced compared to certain other units. Some units in this game are broken and we all know it. Don't take things I say out of context. You have argued that the LR is useless and that terminators are useless. You probably have said the same about other marine units but im not compelled to go look for your posts. Regardless Im not trying to make this a bash fest, im just pointing out that with the applications of tactics and a bit of luck both terminators and land raiders are great at what they do. A land raider can move 12 and still fire a TL LC at full BS using POTMS very few vehicles can do that. You don't like the Land raider because its not as shooty as a tank and your biggest complaint about its transport part is that it can be immobilized by DT. I agree that a simple Dozer blade upgrade would be acceptable but the rest of the proposed ideas make a LR OP as hell. It is already damned hard to pop unless you focus fire lots of anti tank against it. I would be fine with it being able to take cermite plating but only at a large point increase 30+. because realistically meltas are the only sure fire way to take a land raider out.

I don't need to pop it. That's my whole point. My opponent already crippled his own list by bringing a 250 pt vehicle with terrible firepower. The best you can usually do is dump out your assault terminators, kill one unit, and then get shot off the table. 450 pts is too high a price to kill one unit of your opponent's choosing.

"A land raider can move 12 and still fire a TL LC at full BS using POTMS very few vehicles can do that."

Any fast vehicle can fire two weapons. And they all pretty much cost a lot less.

"are great at what they do."

Killing a cheap, throw away unit and then dying horribly? That's what they'll be doing against me, at most.

Again, tactics martel. Tease out that unit that really needs to die, entice your opponent whatever. Yeah FA vehicles can fire 2 weapons when they move 12 but the difference is most FA vehicles die to bolter fire or at most heavy bolter equivalent spam. Or hell make it even nastier. Autocannons which my ork list has a lot of.

You say I would be crippled but I would find a way to out shoot you or out assault you. I stay in the back you try to Drop pod assault my LR with Melta guns. I would have a bit of bubble wrap and save 1-2 of your shots and then my termies would just hop out and eat your Drop pod and assault marines. You stay in the back and launch pot shots at it? I would start driving up with several different threats and kill your shooty bitz. You throw a throwaway unit in my face and make me assault it? nope, I will sacrifice a turn to get into a better position. It is the weak minded player who doesn't understand how to get around those small obstacles.