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It actually takes a while to kill a Rhino with a single lascannon shot per turn.

If you had a land raider with no guns and a 20 transport capacity for 120 I might actually start fielding hammernator termies again. What would it be for 10 termies in these? 570 points? Or you could just field 5 for 345. Not a bad deal.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
If you had a land raider with no guns and a 20 transport capacity for 120 I might actually start fielding hammernator termies again. What would it be for 10 termies in these? 570 points? Or you could just field 5 for 345. Not a bad deal.

As an Ork player, I'd be annoyed Marines could get a no gun, 14/14/14 transport for 120 points when my Battle Wagon is a no gun transport that's 14/12/10 for 110 points. While Open Topped might be a bonus for the BW, it still makes it super vulnerable. :( A land raider for that cheap with a battle wagon transport capacity would be a slap to everyone else and another 'marines need even better stuff' syndrome.

Seriously, what Landraider is only firing a single Lascannon a turn?

Its the 8000lb gorilla. Back off and slow it down works, but lets the LR player dictate the engagement. Outside large Melta drops - where killing 250points isn't a huge return on investment - a LR probably won't die when shot at with a melta or two. Takes more. And they need to be in range.

In a mech heavy list, you've got 2x LC (one snapfiring) or a TL Assault Cannon ripping a light vehicle, where a POTMS MM melts a heavy tank. While moving 6". Or 12, snapfire everything but the MM.

Against infantry mixes, those flamers or hurricane bolters do some damage. Heavy Bolters are a threat then, too.

Its not 250 points worth of glass cannon shooting. You're paying for one of the most durable tanks (pre-LOW) in the game (No, the Serpent isn't more durable). With a smattering of weapons a TAC list can't ignore if it gets close.

Its usually popped the turn it gets in range, because if its not, its going to destroy stuff. So the opponent must do what he can to pop it, or yield ground. Either way, you've forced his hand.

No, I'm not saying a Land Raider is always the answer. I'm just saying that, if it weren't for the current meta, the Land Raider would be quite the answer when used right in some games, just like any other balanced piece.

Orks, and probably Nids, have the chaff to throw in its way. Not every army has that, or 35pt transports in spades. But that is one reasonable tactic for stalling it.

Its job isn't -and shouldnt be - gunlining. It also shouldnt be nih-immune to a thousand points of anti-AV14. It will usually survive a 3-melts podded squad. It shouldn't survive a 10-melts podded squad.

It also shouldn't be a scalpel. Its the final word of handling what ever is in its way. So it should have both anti-infantry and anti-vehicle weapons fluff-wise. It, like a lot of Marine stuff, is decent at a lot of things, and so pays for it. Instead of whining that it can't put out more lascannon shots than equal points of Dev squads, try not ignoring its non-lascannon weapons. Heck, you dont even need to shoot them for them to be a threat.

The LR has a lot going for it. A little overcosted, sure. But its hard counter also hard counters the current cornerstones of the meta, so until those are fixed, people will be prepared for it. Just making it OP just exascorbates the problem.

Melevolence wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
If you had a land raider with no guns and a 20 transport capacity for 120 I might actually start fielding hammernator termies again. What would it be for 10 termies in these? 570 points? Or you could just field 5 for 345. Not a bad deal.

As an Ork player, I'd be annoyed Marines could get a no gun, 14/14/14 transport for 120 points when my Battle Wagon is a no gun transport that's 14/12/10 for 110 points. While Open Topped might be a bonus for the BW, it still makes it super vulnerable. :( A land raider for that cheap with a battle wagon transport capacity would be a slap to everyone else and another 'marines need even better stuff' syndrome.

I guessed at 120. Maybe 140 is the real price. Not sure, really. But putting guns on this thing is STUPID.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Seriously, what Landraider is only firing a single Lascannon a turn?

Its the 8000lb gorilla. Back off and slow it down works, but lets the LR player dictate the engagement. Outside large Melta drops - where killing 250points isn't a huge return on investment - a LR probably won't die when shot at with a melta or two. Takes more. And they need to be in range.

In a mech heavy list, you've got 2x LC (one snapfiring) or a TL Assault Cannon ripping a light vehicle, where a POTMS MM melts a heavy tank. While moving 6". Or 12, snapfire everything but the MM.

Against infantry mixes, those flamers or hurricane bolters do some damage. Heavy Bolters are a threat then, too.

Its not 250 points worth of glass cannon shooting. You're paying for one of the most durable tanks (pre-LOW) in the game (No, the Serpent isn't more durable). With a smattering of weapons a TAC list can't ignore if it gets close.

Its usually popped the turn it gets in range, because if its not, its going to destroy stuff. So the opponent must do what he can to pop it, or yield ground. Either way, you've forced his hand.

No, I'm not saying a Land Raider is always the answer. I'm just saying that, if it weren't for the current meta, the Land Raider would be quite the answer when used right in some games, just like any other balanced piece.

Orks, and probably Nids, have the chaff to throw in its way. Not every army has that, or 35pt transports in spades. But that is one reasonable tactic for stalling it.

Its job isn't -and shouldnt be - gunlining. It also shouldnt be nih-immune to a thousand points of anti-AV14. It will usually survive a 3-melts podded squad. It shouldn't survive a 10-melts podded squad.

It also shouldn't be a scalpel. Its the final word of handling what ever is in its way. So it should have both anti-infantry and anti-vehicle weapons fluff-wise. It, like a lot of Marine stuff, is decent at a lot of things, and so pays for it. Instead of whining that it can't put out more lascannon shots than equal points of Dev squads, try not ignoring its non-lascannon weapons. Heck, you dont even need to shoot them for them to be a threat.

The LR has a lot going for it. A little overcosted, sure. But its hard counter also hard counters the current cornerstones of the meta, so until those are fixed, people will be prepared for it. Just making it OP just exascorbates the problem.

I understand your point, but its firepower is terrible for its price. It also constantly has to compromise between movement and shooting. Marines can't afford to pay 250 pts for some snap shot heavy weapons. Marines already have a plethora of firepower problems. I find these things consistently ignorable, and that's not acceptable for a 250 pt model.

Why have a relic of the chapter that is supposed to be the be-all end-all intended to duke it out with any threat they could encounter while driving through a siege line and not put any weapons on it? I could see IG doing something like that, but not Marines. This isn't some do-the-job transport for an engagement or two, these are the pinnicle of SM armor, each one a priceless relic!

With no guns, it would still be around 200 points. Nothing short of s8 can even glance it, even in melee. And 4 HP is a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And choices are good. It shouldn't cost as much as something that can do both just as well, but it should certainly cost more than something that can only do one just as well. Choices like this - move more or shoot more - are critical to playing SM. Unless you bikespam, because they get to do both. For fewer points. But Tacs, Devs, and even ASMs (jetpack to move or charge?) all have to make tradeoffs. And that's what I love about my SMs.

I'm going to get real here. Sometimes I use a god hammer LR. I take it with an IK and 3 dreadknights and it does work. It works because who can spare sucide meltas to shoot a LR when there is a knight in front of it. Problem is the only way I can get the thing to survive is to put titans on the board to draw fire from it. Offensively I think the god hammer is perfect but defensively - it might as well be a predator vs a melta gun and it's mainly the defense you are paying for + the assault transport factor. Best suggestion ive seen so far is to give LR a serpent shield type ability vs pens. I think a 4+ would be more realistic than 2+ obviously and it doesn't need to have a 7 shot str 7 ignore cover 60 inch gun to go with it, or the ability to gain 3+ cover on demand...is that too much to ask?

Bharring wrote:
Why have a relic of the chapter that is supposed to be the be-all end-all intended to duke it out with any threat they could encounter while driving through a siege line and not put any weapons on it? I could see IG doing something like that, but not Marines. This isn't some do-the-job transport for an engagement or two, these are the pinnicle of SM armor, each one a priceless relic!

With no guns, it would still be around 200 points. Nothing short of s8 can even glance it, even in melee. And 4 HP is a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And choices are good. It shouldn't cost as much as something that can do both just as well, but it should certainly cost more than something that can only do one just as well. Choices like this - move more or shoot more - are critical to playing SM. Unless you bikespam, because they get to do both. For fewer points. But Tacs, Devs, and even ASMs (jetpack to move or charge?) all have to make tradeoffs. And that's what I love about my SMs.

Except that the land raider is not worth firepower for the price. It's a false choice in the case of the land raider. Why would I not drive my CC hammer to its target asap? Every turn they spend in the thing is a waste of their points. There is no way an AV 14 box with no guns costs 200 pts, because of how poor assault is in the game now.

Also, I don't care about it being a relic of the chapter. Nothing in 40K makes any sense, anyway. The LR is a stupid WW I tank. We quit using this concept by the 1930s. We also quit using sponson guns. The LR is terrible in the game, and that's what matters to me. If cutting it's price by a huge amount by taking the guns off makes it playable, that's what I care about.

As it stands now, the LR can't duke it out with anything in an efficient manner.

"And that's what I love about my SMs."

It's all fun and games until you face an efficient list.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm going to get real here. Sometimes I use a god hammer LR. I take it with an IK and 3 dreadknights and it does work. It works because who can spare sucide meltas to shoot a LR when there is a knight in front of it. Problem is the only way I can get the thing to survive is to put titans on the board to draw fire from it. Offensively I think the god hammer is perfect but defensively - it might as well be a predator vs a melta gun and it's mainly the defense you are paying for + the assault transport factor. Best suggestion ive seen so far is to give LR a serpent shield type ability vs pens. I think a 4+ would be more realistic than 2+ obviously and it doesn't need to have a 7 shot str 7 ignore cover 60 inch gun to go with it, or the ability to gain 3+ cover on demand...is that too much to ask?

I ignore them w/o knights on the table. What is it going to do? Shoot a gun at me once in a while? After playing WS over and over, land raiders are a walk in the park. They might as well have zero guns.

Personally, making a landraider a super heavy is a bad idea. Besides getting the Invincible Behemoth special rule, you would also be giving it the ability to thunder blitz and tank shock at the same time. I think giving the land raider the ability to by cernite plating would be nice. Also giving it a dozer blade would be helpful as well. Out side of that I would leave it the way it is. For the point cost you have suggest, why not take a super heavy tank from IG. You would get the same effect.

As I'm sure others have pointed out, if you make it too good people will not want to play you.

I completely forgot that this thing can't take a dozer blade. It's an immobilization waiting to happen.

So, to paraphrase, you want an IG army called space smurfs?

Martel732 wrote:
I completely forgot that this thing can't take a dozer blade. It's an immobilization waiting to happen.

Which is my biggest problem with the vehicle. Supposed to be the big bad ass tank, but it can get stuck on a rock. Dozer blades would be a nice bonus. A buddy of mine and myself like to play test ideas for changes to the game. Dozer blade on a landraider was amazing. Or just simply give it a special rule allowing you to re-roll your terrain rolls for the vehicle. Not much a raider of the land when land raids you.

Also, average dice glance a LR on any facing, but pen a Pred on front. And lol av 10/11 rear/front.

And no POTMS.
And 4HP vs 3.
And much better shooting, although less than at equal points.

Even when moving 12", it can still do some shooting.

Honestly, if you want each model to be a specialist in the one thing it does, why play an army of generalists?

Bharring wrote:
Also, average dice glance a LR on any facing, but pen a Pred on front. And lol av 10/11 rear/front.

And no POTMS.
And 4HP vs 3.
And much better shooting, although less than at equal points.

Even when moving 12", it can still do some shooting.

Honestly, if you want each model to be a specialist in the one thing it does, why play an army of generalists?

It's what I own. I really, really dislike GWs concept and pricing for generalists, but they're what I've got.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
So, to paraphrase, you want an IG army called space smurfs?

How did you get that out of my posts?

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Why have a relic of the chapter that is supposed to be the be-all end-all intended to duke it out with any threat they could encounter while driving through a siege line and not put any weapons on it? I could see IG doing something like that, but not Marines. This isn't some do-the-job transport for an engagement or two, these are the pinnicle of SM armor, each one a priceless relic!

With no guns, it would still be around 200 points. Nothing short of s8 can even glance it, even in melee. And 4 HP is a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And choices are good. It shouldn't cost as much as something that can do both just as well, but it should certainly cost more than something that can only do one just as well. Choices like this - move more or shoot more - are critical to playing SM. Unless you bikespam, because they get to do both. For fewer points. But Tacs, Devs, and even ASMs (jetpack to move or charge?) all have to make tradeoffs. And that's what I love about my SMs.

Except that the land raider is not worth firepower for the price. It's a false choice in the case of the land raider. Why would I not drive my CC hammer to its target asap? Every turn they spend in the thing is a waste of their points. There is no way an AV 14 box with no guns costs 200 pts, because of how poor assault is in the game now.

Also, I don't care about it being a relic of the chapter. Nothing in 40K makes any sense, anyway. The LR is a stupid WW I tank. We quit using this concept by the 1930s. We also quit using sponson guns. The LR is terrible in the game, and that's what matters to me. If cutting it's price by a huge amount by taking the guns off makes it playable, that's what I care about.

As it stands now, the LR can't duke it out with anything in an efficient manner.

"And that's what I love about my SMs."

It's all fun and games until you face an efficient list.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm going to get real here. Sometimes I use a god hammer LR. I take it with an IK and 3 dreadknights and it does work. It works because who can spare sucide meltas to shoot a LR when there is a knight in front of it. Problem is the only way I can get the thing to survive is to put titans on the board to draw fire from it. Offensively I think the god hammer is perfect but defensively - it might as well be a predator vs a melta gun and it's mainly the defense you are paying for + the assault transport factor. Best suggestion ive seen so far is to give LR a serpent shield type ability vs pens. I think a 4+ would be more realistic than 2+ obviously and it doesn't need to have a 7 shot str 7 ignore cover 60 inch gun to go with it, or the ability to gain 3+ cover on demand...is that too much to ask?

I ignore them w/o knights on the table. What is it going to do? Shoot a gun at me once in a while? After playing WS over and over, land raiders are a walk in the park. They might as well have zero guns.

Do you ignore trilas preds? Because the firepower from a LR is pretty comparable - LR has better firepower once you get into 24 inch range. LR can easily do this by moving 6 inches 2 turns in a row without sacrificing any firepower - or can just snap fire a las cannon once to get 18 inches of movement in 2 turns. Also even a minimum 5 man GK term squad that can get into assault easily as a counter charge can't be ignored. Most units can't handle 2+ armor in CC these days.

Tri-las preds start shooting me from turn 1 and that's all they do. They don't have split duty. And they don't cost 250. A big part of the land raider is the other stuff NOT in my opponent's list that they could have had instead of that thing. And I really don't care about your GK terminator squad. They might kill one unit that costs less than them and then they will be shot off the table. Like most assault elements.

LR also has trouble hitting many targets with both lascannons.

To be fair, though, tri-las preds have crap firepower compared to WS as well.

I stand by my fix for them is to nerf their firepower so they have a dedicated purpose, and in the process, making them affordable to field. If these are actually space marine relics, they would have never won a battle except in the minds of the fluff writers.

Martel732 wrote:
Tri-las preds start shooting me from turn 1 and that's all they do. They don't have split duty. And they don't cost 250. A big part of the land raider is the other stuff NOT in my opponent's list that they could have had instead of that thing. And I really don't care about your GK terminator squad. They might kill one unit that costs less than them and then they will be shot off the table. Like most assault elements.

LR also has trouble hitting many targets with both lascannons.

To be fair, though, tri-las preds have crap firepower compared to WS as well.

I stand by my fix for them is to nerf their firepower so they have a dedicated purpose, and in the process, making them affordable to field. If these are actually space marine relics, they would have never won a battle except in the minds of the fluff writers.

"I stand by my fix for them is to nerf their firepower so they have a dedicated purpose, and in the process, making them affordable to field. If these are actually space marine relics, they would have never won a battle except in the minds of the fluff writers."
Which I why I proposed a price increase and making them IB. Can move and shot all weapons - so they can fill their dual purpose easy. Ignore the dmg table, get expensive units where they need to go unhindered. Within reason - all vehicals should function this way anyways...for crying outloud our current tanks of the day can track 10+ targets at once and shoot 120 mm cannons at 2 miles at full speed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tri-las preds start shooting me from turn 1 and that's all they do. They don't have split duty. And they don't cost 250. A big part of the land raider is the other stuff NOT in my opponent's list that they could have had instead of that thing. And I really don't care about your GK terminator squad. They might kill one unit that costs less than them and then they will be shot off the table. Like most assault elements.

LR also has trouble hitting many targets with both lascannons.

To be fair, though, tri-las preds have crap firepower compared to WS as well.

I stand by my fix for them is to nerf their firepower so they have a dedicated purpose, and in the process, making them affordable to field. If these are actually space marine relics, they would have never won a battle except in the minds of the fluff writers.

"I stand by my fix for them is to nerf their firepower so they have a dedicated purpose, and in the process, making them affordable to field. If these are actually space marine relics, they would have never won a battle except in the minds of the fluff writers."
Which I why I proposed a price increase and making them IB. Can move and shot all weapons - so they can fill their dual purpose easy. Ignore the dmg table, get expensive units where they need to go unhindered. Within reason - all vehicals should function this way anyways...for crying outloud our current tanks of the day can track 10+ targets at once and shoot 120 mm cannons at 2 miles at full speed.

That's why I find 40K battles and tech absurdly poor. A buff would fix the issue as well, but Xeno players would lose their minds.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tri-las preds start shooting me from turn 1 and that's all they do. They don't have split duty. And they don't cost 250. A big part of the land raider is the other stuff NOT in my opponent's list that they could have had instead of that thing. And I really don't care about your GK terminator squad. They might kill one unit that costs less than them and then they will be shot off the table. Like most assault elements.

LR also has trouble hitting many targets with both lascannons.

To be fair, though, tri-las preds have crap firepower compared to WS as well.

I stand by my fix for them is to nerf their firepower so they have a dedicated purpose, and in the process, making them affordable to field. If these are actually space marine relics, they would have never won a battle except in the minds of the fluff writers.

"I stand by my fix for them is to nerf their firepower so they have a dedicated purpose, and in the process, making them affordable to field. If these are actually space marine relics, they would have never won a battle except in the minds of the fluff writers."
Which I why I proposed a price increase and making them IB. Can move and shot all weapons - so they can fill their dual purpose easy. Ignore the dmg table, get expensive units where they need to go unhindered. Within reason - all vehicals should function this way anyways...for crying outloud our current tanks of the day can track 10+ targets at once and shoot 120 mm cannons at 2 miles at full speed.

That's why I find 40K battles and tech absurdly poor. A buff would fix the issue as well, but Xeno players would lose their minds.

because people care more for balance than fluff? anyone else find it weird that a 1500 point foot slog SM army has roughly half of the company? when a 1500 point infantry guard has less than 1/10 the expected number?

You already need dedicated AT to explode a Land Raider. That's not the real problem. You can argue it's cost too but that's not going to fix the fundamental problem either.

The real problem is that vehicles are way to easy to kill through hull points. Especially with glances so easy to achieve now

A lack of hull points should weaken a vehicle not outright destroy it. So instead of auto-wrecking at 0 HP perhaps require an additional penetrating hit to wreck. This way you can't glance anything to death anymore, you'd have to take real AT. Instead maybe have additional glances stun/shake so they don't just strip hull points.

At least HPing landraider takes quite a bit!

With s8 missile launchers:
(2/3) hit (1/6) glance = (1/9) with no saves, or *36* missile launcher shots with no cover!

Most lists need weapons dedicated to killing things like that because things like missile launchers just don't get the job done!

There's a 12,95 % chance of destroying a Land Raider by a melta weapon from within melta range. We're talking about melta weapons, the most anti-armour specialised weapon - shouldn't such a weapon be able to one-shot a Land Raider?

We could lower the chance but when the freak incident happens, we'll probably question its durability again. Where was the slight chance of 12,95 % when the OP shot it in one shot? Don't we just have to accept that a Guardsman can kill a Terminator through the eye lens with a lasgun and destroy a Land Raider with a meltagun as we cannot look back and calculate if it was due or happened to often?

@Those of you who think it's okay for a melta weapon to one-shot a Land Raider when within melta range:

How big should the chance be to destroy a Land Raider by a melta weapon from within melta range, not thinking about its cost?

I'm not so worried about the melta. I can bubblewrap my raider if necessary, but it's just not worth bringing in the first place, imo. It doesn't do enough for its points.

So the unkillable tank doesn't have enough firepower? If you don't care about it surviving, spend your points on something else, and leave the LR to those that want to use its survivability?

Bharring wrote:
So the unkillable tank doesn't have enough firepower? If you don't care about it surviving, spend your points on something else, and leave the LR to those that want to use its survivability?

It's far from unkillable. It has a 1:6 chance of neutering itself by driving through a rough field. People have also pointed out its vulnerability to melta drops.

Given how weak assault is in this edition, I can't imagine with I'd pay 250 pts for an assault enabler. Being unkillable doesn't matter if it's ignorable. Every time I see a land raider, I just think "that could have been a grav cent squad. Score!"

Positioning means more than just assault vectors.

Also, I guess it makes a difference that Space Marines have fast Bikes and Land Speeders which can wield the melta weapons while Eldar's fusion weapons are only wielded by infantry.

Chaospling wrote:
Also, I guess it makes a difference that Space Marines have fast Bikes and Land Speeders which can wield the melta weapons while Eldar's fusion weapons are only wielded by infantry.

Land Raiders are irrelevant to Eldar for different reasons.

That reason being, almost everything in a competitive Eldar list that isn't Davu is there to pop Land Raiders and things like it. When half the list is LR counters, it should be able to handle LRs.

What chance got riptyde, which is cheaper and looks much less durable than LR,to be one shoted by melta?

Obviously LRs need ceramite plating and count as dozer blades(or just ignore terrain ) free of charge.

Then it need something to keep all it's weapons normally firing on the move.

Then it needs smth like 5++, and/or more hp

And then price reduction to 200+/- points