Hey all. Some of you may remember me from a long time ago. I haven't been on Dakka for quite some time, possibly many months or perhaps a year or 2 but however, Lord Tarkin is back, and his ferocious debates have returned to plague the many forums of DakkaDakka. Now, for my first question. My intellect may be limited due to my absences, perhaps even more so limited than I originally thought. It has come to my attention that my kin and their dark allies have managed to sway an ULTRAMARINE in recent years? Could this in fact be true? Years ago, I read on Lexicanum and many other 40k fluff sites that Ultramarines have never had a traitor before but now, things seem to have changed. I have searched and I cannot find this being said anywhere anymore. No mention of the lapdog Ultramarines being "the purest" and a matter of fact, the Grey Knights have now acquired the title of never having a traitor (which will soon end, you fools). Is...this...true?
This is a lie and has never been true. Every chapter has at least one traitor that fell in some point in their history, obviously exceptionally young chapters being exempt. The Grey Knights are an anomaly and not really anything that should be compared with other chapters.
Not to mention being "purest" has nothing to do with falling to chaos.
This is a lie and has never been true. Every chapter has at least one traitor that fell in some point in their history, obviously exceptionally young chapters being exempt. The Grey Knights are an anomaly and not really anything that should be compared with other chapters.
Not to mention being "purest" has nothing to do with falling to chaos.
I understand all that but what I meant by purest was obviously that they never had a traitor, which has changed in recent years but I know at least 3 or 4 years ago, UM were always known to have never harboured a traitor. And if they have had a traitor than who is he/they? Because if memory serves me right an UM sergeant (forgot his name) went traitor.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And on the same note, the Grey Knights are for all intents and purposes a Space Marine chapter.
This is a lie and has never been true. Every chapter has at least one traitor that fell in some point in their history, obviously exceptionally young chapters being exempt. The Grey Knights are an anomaly and not really anything that should be compared with other chapters.
Not to mention being "purest" has nothing to do with falling to chaos.
I understand all that but what I meant by purest was obviously that they never had a traitor, which has changed in recent years but I know at least 3 or 4 years ago, UM were always known to have never harboured a traitor. And if they have had a traitor than who is he/they? Because if memory serves me right an UM sergeant (forgot his name) went traitor.
There doesn't need to be name for a character just because they went traitor. The Ultramarines have been around for 10,000 years. They've had traitors. Most likely the records for them just get expunged or otherwise sealed away.
This is a lie and has never been true. Every chapter has at least one traitor that fell in some point in their history, obviously exceptionally young chapters being exempt. The Grey Knights are an anomaly and not really anything that should be compared with other chapters.
Not to mention being "purest" has nothing to do with falling to chaos.
I understand all that but what I meant by purest was obviously that they never had a traitor, which has changed in recent years but I know at least 3 or 4 years ago, UM were always known to have never harboured a traitor. And if they have had a traitor than who is he/they? Because if memory serves me right an UM sergeant (forgot his name) went traitor.
There doesn't need to be name for a character just because they went traitor. The Ultramarines have been around for 10,000 years. They've had traitors. Most likely the records for them just get expunged or otherwise sealed away.
Again, I understand that but like I was trying to say, this was not the case years ago.
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sudojoe wrote: Arent there ultramarine successor chapters that have turned to chaos before?
Of course but they are never mentioned as counting "as Ultramarines".
jareddm wrote: There doesn't need to be name for a character just because they went traitor. The Ultramarines have been around for 10,000 years. They've had traitors. Most likely the records for them just get expunged or otherwise sealed away.
Again, I understand that but like I was trying to say, this was not the case years ago.
Yes it was. As I said before, being called "pure" does not mean you've never had traitors.
If you need an example, the story Daemonblood, which was published in 2001 features an Ultramarine turned champion of Nurgle.
This is a lie and has never been true. Every chapter has at least one traitor that fell in some point in their history, obviously exceptionally young chapters being exempt. The Grey Knights are an anomaly and not really anything that should be compared with other chapters.
Not to mention being "purest" has nothing to do with falling to chaos.
I understand all that but what I meant by purest was obviously that they never had a traitor, which has changed in recent years but I know at least 3 or 4 years ago, UM were always known to have never harboured a traitor. And if they have had a traitor than who is he/they? Because if memory serves me right an UM sergeant (forgot his name) went traitor.
There doesn't need to be name for a character just because they went traitor. The Ultramarines have been around for 10,000 years. They've had traitors. Most likely the records for them just get expunged or otherwise sealed away.
Again, I understand that but like I was trying to say, this was not the case years ago.
Yes it was. As I said before, being called "pure" does not mean you've never had traitors.
I apologize, I don't think you understand what I'm saying. It's quite simple. Years ago, Ultramarines never had a traitor in their very long history dating back to the HH. Now it seems games workshop has changed the history a lil bit because the ultramarines are suddenly known to have had traitors.
Look at it this way, 2/3rds of all successor chapters supposedly have Ultramarines gene-seed. Obviously they're going to have a lot of traitors, if not the most simply because of artithmetic.
I apologize, I don't think you understand what I'm saying. It's quite simple. Years ago, Ultramarines never had a traitor in their very long history dating back to the HH. Now it seems games workshop has changed the history a lil bit because the ultramarines are suddenly known to have had traitors.
See my edit. An example of an Ultramarine fallen to chaos from a source at least 14 years old.
EngulfedObject wrote: Look at it this way, 2/3rds of all successor chapters supposedly have Ultramarines gene-seed. Obviously they're going to have a lot of traitors, if not the most simply because of artithmetic.
Well, I know that but I was referring to single chapters, in this case the Ultramarines, not necessarily their geneseed and all their successors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But nevertheless, jareddm has revealed to me a personally very confusing bit of information. Perhaps I have been brainwashed by my loyalist brother. Ultramarines never cease to annoy me, apparently.
You'd do well to look beyond their codex if you're looking for Ultramarine information that doesn't make a complete fool of itself. The next Forgeworld Horus Heresy book is predicted to be out in May and will feature the Ultramarines and the battle of Calth. They've made a great showing in the Horus Heresy imho.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Years ago, Ultramarines never had a traitor in their very long history dating back to the HH.
Can you cite a source for this claim?
No, I can't because that said "source" doesn't exist anymore or perhaps never existed and as I have stated, I was fooled. Read more before asking questions I have already cleared up.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Read more before asking questions I have already cleared up.
Oh -- is this you admitting you were wrong?
Lord Tarkin wrote: But nevertheless, jareddm has revealed to me a personally very confusing bit of information. Perhaps I have been brainwashed by my loyalist brother. Ultramarines never cease to annoy me, apparently.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Read more before asking questions I have already cleared up.
Oh -- is this you admitting you were wrong?
Lord Tarkin wrote: But nevertheless, jareddm has revealed to me a personally very confusing bit of information. Perhaps I have been brainwashed by my loyalist brother. Ultramarines never cease to annoy me, apparently.
I prefer you not ask me to formerly admit to you (someome I don't directly know) that I am "wrong". I will assume you meant no harm, but since I was just asking a question, I was not necessarily wrong about anything, just trying to find some truth to the matter, which I have indeed found.
I ... have no idea what is going on in this thread. It seems like everyone is talking past each other. Ultramarines were never the "purest" except possibly in term of geneseed, and even then only in a very particular way of looking at it. Plenty of other chapters have pure and stable geneseed, the High Lords just favor them for creating new chapters for various reasons. Nowadays we have Forge World's Red Scorpions who are obsessed with genetic purity but I don't know if they necessarily have the "purest" geneseed themselves.
sounds to me like you're confusing sources. when people refer to the purity of the Ultramarines they're not refering to "ohh they never had a traitor" rather they're refering to the Ultramarines GENESEED. which is noted as being some of the purest geneseed in existance (this is why the Ultramarines are often used to make new chapters ) compare the Ultramarines to the other sucessor chapters.
Space Wolves have some serious flaws in the form of the Wulfen.
Imperial Fists Geneseed is missing the Betcher's Gland and the Sus-an Membrane (despite the issues with this they're apparently a popular choice for sucessor chapters thus indicating the gene seed is very stable and not prone to mutation)
Raven Guard are a complete mess, and even before hand had the whole "Dark hair pale skin" problem going for em.
Salamanders have the coal skin red eyes thing
etc
the Ultramarines are noted for their gene-seed being both very stable and not prone to mutation. the dark angels can claim this as well but they don't get as many sucessors because no body trusts them
Well, I'll never use Lexicanum again. I swear that's where I read about Ultramarines never having a traitor. This isn't the first time that place has come up with terrible sources.
BrianDavion wrote: Space Wolves have some serious flaws in the form of the Wulfen.
Imperial Fists Geneseed is missing the Betcher's Gland and the Sus-an Membrane (despite the issues with this they're apparently a popular choice for sucessor chapters thus indicating the gene seed is very stable and not prone to mutation)
Raven Guard are a complete mess, and even before hand had the whole "Dark hair pale skin" problem going for em.
Salamanders have the coal skin red eyes thing
Then there's the Dark Angels not being used often because they're suspected of Legion-building, and the Blood Angels have the Red Thirst/Black Rage.
The Salamanders have a very pure geneseed - their mutation is not caused by genetics, it's caused by exposure to the absolutely insane levels of radiation and heat of Nocturne and Prometheus. They don't have Successors because they don't have the manpower for it and haven't since Isstvan.
The White Scars and the Iron Hands, on the other hand... they have no geneseed issues to the best of my knowledge, yet they have very few Successors.
Tarkin, I don't think anyone is trying to slight or shame you. Cool down, man.
EngulfedObject wrote: Look at it this way, 2/3rds of all successor chapters supposedly have Ultramarines gene-seed. Obviously they're going to have a lot of traitors, if not the most simply because of artithmetic.
The raw numbers do create a (potential) illusion, up to the point where I have sometimes wondered about the UM, whether something is off about them deep down. Of course, the relevant ratio may be very small compared to other chapters. We don't know. The other issue is, subsequent corruption cannot be solely attributed to the underlying genestock antecedent as new chapters can be formed from subsequent foundings (e.g., the Iron Champions). And the founding process itself can lead to problems. Let's just say that half of the Thirteenth Founding were direct UM successors. That by itself would drive up the UM ratio without casting any reasonable suspicion on the UM.
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j31c3n wrote: The White Scars and the Iron Hands, on the other hand... they have no geneseed issues to the best of my knowledge, yet they have very few Successors.
I think there is a positive correlation between Codex adherence and volume of successor chapters. That just makes sense, given the main point of Codex Astartes was limiting the size of SM formations. But it's also interesting to note that the spawning-Chapter probably has little say in the matter considering the High Lords control the gene tithe. So Codex adherence is probably, all other things being equal, taken to be a mark of genetic reliability. The main counter example would be the BA, who try to adhere to the Codex but cannot because of their unique problems. Whether they have a lot of successors overall, I don't know. But we certainly know about a lot of them.
EngulfedObject wrote: Look at it this way, 2/3rds of all successor chapters supposedly have Ultramarines gene-seed. Obviously they're going to have a lot of traitors, if not the most simply because of artithmetic.
The raw numbers do create a (potential) illusion, up to the point where I have sometimes wondered about the UM, whether something is off about them deep down. Of course, the relevant ratio may be very small compared to other chapters. We don't know. The other issue is, subsequent corruption cannot be solely attributed to the underlying genestock antecedent as new chapters can be formed from subsequent foundings (e.g., the Iron Champions). And the founding process itself can lead to problems. Let's just say that half of the Thirteenth Founding were direct UM successors. That by itself would drive up the UM ratio without casting any reasonable suspicion on the UM.
Yea, I didn't realize the OP meant the Ultramarines chapter only. When I think of the First Founding chapters, I tend to consider their successors as well. Too much 30K
The Salamanders have a very pure geneseed - their mutation is not caused by genetics, it's caused by exposure to the absolutely insane levels of radiation and heat of Nocturne and Prometheus. They don't have Successors because they don't have the manpower for it and haven't since Isstvan.
The White Scars and the Iron Hands, on the other hand... they have no geneseed issues to the best of my knowledge, yet they have very few Successors.
I was under the impression that the Salamanders mutation was part of their genetics. I always thought it was a direct response by their melanin genes to the radiation on Nocturne. I could be wrong, though. Also, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Iron Hands have some kind of genetic defect caused by the genetic memory of the death of their Primarch, plus it's been alluded that their compulsion to replace their flesh with cybernetics is more than just traditional, but an actual genetic addiction.
TBF many (maybe all?) of the UM successors we know about appear to be direct successors. So if something is wrong with their genestock, that problem was either (a) inherited from the UM themselves of (b) a product of the High Lords' manipulations during the Founding process.
In 40k, there seems to be a kind of moral dimension to genetics. After all, many of the traitor legions exhibited no inherent genetic deficiencies (such as the SW or 1ksons). But their geneseed is sealed away and never (openly) used to create successors.
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Darth Bob wrote: plus it's been alluded that their compulsion to replace their flesh with cybernetics is more than just traditional, but an actual genetic addiction.
If true, I wonder if this was inherited from Ferrus post-reunification, and therefore has something to do with his own genetic makeup being altered by his encounter with the [C'tan?].
EngulfedObject wrote: Look at it this way, 2/3rds of all successor chapters supposedly have Ultramarines gene-seed. Obviously they're going to have a lot of traitors, if not the most simply because of artithmetic.
The raw numbers do create a (potential) illusion, up to the point where I have sometimes wondered about the UM, whether something is off about them deep down. Of course, the relevant ratio may be very small compared to other chapters. We don't know. The other issue is, subsequent corruption cannot be solely attributed to the underlying genestock antecedent as new chapters can be formed from subsequent foundings (e.g., the Iron Champions). And the founding process itself can lead to problems. Let's just say that half of the Thirteenth Founding were direct UM successors. That by itself would drive up the UM ratio without casting any reasonable suspicion on the UM.
Yea, I didn't realize the OP meant the Ultramarines chapter only. When I think of the First Founding chapters, I tend to consider their successors as well. Too much 30K
Probably not a great idea, as minor variations in geneseed across chapters even of the same lineage could certainly make geneseed unique. We have no idea of just how many hundreds of minor variations in geneseed there might be between Ultramarines, Fire Angels, Doom Legion, Howling Griffons and many others. Probably mostly still compatible, but different enough to be noticeable. A slightly higher risk of the neuroglottis failing to take, a chance for a faulty mucranoid that produces a thinner than average resistant skin for example. All minor, but all still unique.
Darth Bob wrote: I was under the impression that the Salamanders mutation was part of their genetics.
It was a part of it. Prior to finding Vulkan, Salamanders had somewhat darkened skin and red-colored eyes. However, after starting recruitment from Nocturne and being reunited with their primarch, there was a much more noticeable darkening of their skin to coal black and there eyes practically glowed red.
Darth Bob wrote: plus it's been alluded that their compulsion to replace their flesh with cybernetics is more than just traditional, but an actual genetic addiction.
If true, I wonder if this was inherited from Ferrus post-reunification, and therefore has something to do with his own genetic makeup being altered by his encounter with the [C'tan?].
I'm pretty sure this is briefly referred to in their Index Astartes entry. It's definitely possible that the C'tan's living metal altered Ferrus' geneseed in some manner. Even during the Great Crusade they were obsessed with hating weakness and frailty and were constantly preaching about how the flesh is weak. Perhaps the living metal that integrated with Ferrus' body also integrated itself into his geneseed, and tries to assert itself by making the Iron Hands prone to replace their bodies with metal like, say, Necrons.
Darth Bob wrote: I was under the impression that the Salamanders mutation was part of their genetics. I always thought it was a direct response by their melanin genes to the radiation on Nocturne. I could be wrong, though. Also, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Iron Hands have some kind of genetic defect caused by the genetic memory of the death of their Primarch, plus it's been alluded that their compulsion to replace their flesh with cybernetics is more than just traditional, but an actual genetic addiction.
From White Dwarf 274, Salamanders Index Astartes article: "As far as can be ascertained, the Salamanders' gene-seed appears to be stable and as yet uncorrupted. The reflexes of Salamanders Space Marines are not as fast as those of other Chapters, although still quick when suited in power armour. However, it is unknown whether this is due to a defect in the gene-seed, a result of their high gravity world, or comes about from the Chapter's doctrines against hastiness and impetuosity."
As for the Iron Hands, their "FLESH IS WEAK" nonsense is entirely cultural in my personal opinion. The Brazen Claws, Iron Lords, Red Talons, Sons of Medusa, and Steel Confessors are all IH successors and none of them are obsessed with mechanical augmentation. The Iron Hands dove off the deep end into their obsession with logic and augmentation because Ferrus Manus began to doubt it prior to Isstvan. Then he lost his cool and subsequently his head. His Legion (and later, chapter - Isstvan reduced their strength to the point they had no chapters to split into for the second founding) recoiled from his idea that they should lay off the logic and bionics and rushed headlong into it. Kardan Stronos is essentially the only M41 character to speak against the idea.
jareddm wrote: Prior to finding Vulkan, Salamanders had somewhat darkened skin and red-colored eyes. However, after starting recruitment from Nocturne and being reunited with their primarch, there was a much more noticeable darkening of their skin to coal black and there eyes practically glowed red.
I do think it's likely that genseed stability is only PART of the issue for new SM chapters yes. I suspect the IoM also values a high degree of...... political orthadoxy from the parent chapter
BrianDavion wrote: Space Wolves have some serious flaws in the form of the Wulfen.
Imperial Fists Geneseed is missing the Betcher's Gland and the Sus-an Membrane (despite the issues with this they're apparently a popular choice for sucessor chapters thus indicating the gene seed is very stable and not prone to mutation)
Raven Guard are a complete mess, and even before hand had the whole "Dark hair pale skin" problem going for em.
Salamanders have the coal skin red eyes thing
Then there's the Dark Angels not being used often because they're suspected of Legion-building, and the Blood Angels have the Red Thirst/Black Rage.
The Salamanders have a very pure geneseed - their mutation is not caused by genetics, it's caused by exposure to the absolutely insane levels of radiation and heat of Nocturne and Prometheus. They don't have Successors because they don't have the manpower for it and haven't since Isstvan.
The White Scars and the Iron Hands, on the other hand... they have no geneseed issues to the best of my knowledge, yet they have very few Successors.
Tarkin, I don't think anyone is trying to slight or shame you. Cool down, man.
Manchu wrote: The motto of the Sons of Medusa is "purge the weak." I'm not sure they are a good example of a successor chapter diverging from its antecedent.
That's just a motto though. They really don't show a predisposition towards bionics or augmentation of any kind. Plus, it's kind of generic Space Marine fare.
Are you speaking from a source (a source says they are not obsessed with augmentation) or from the lack of a source (no source saying they are obsessed with augmentation)?
Also -- it stands to reason that IH successors are not just spouting generic SM lines when they scream PURGE THE WEAK.
The Sons of Medusa are not a traditional successor, either. They were not cooked up in the High Lords' labs. They are actually descended from IH clans. They voluntarily left the IH to prevent chapter war.
It's possible that the later foundings aren't as susceptible to the defect as those that came directly from Ferrus Manus. It's also possible that the genetic defect has disseminated over time and its effect on the Iron Hands has evolved into more of a cultural practice.
The Badab War Part Two, p. 97 wrote:In character the Sons of Medusa owe much to their forebears, being utterly intolerant of physical or mental weakness in others and least of all in themselves. This obsession manifests most notably in a distinct preference for high levels of biomechanical and cybernetic rebuild among their Battle Brothers.
Ferrus Manus spoke about the problem himself, stating his chapters obsession with bionics was becoming an unhealthy practice and that he was gonna abolish it but of course he died before he could do that. It really is only a culture.
The Badab War Part Two, p. 97 wrote:In character the Sons of Medusa owe much to their forebears, being utterly intolerant of physical or mental weakness in others and least of all in themselves. This obsession manifests most notably in a distinct preference for high levels of biomechanical and cybernetic rebuild among their Battle Brothers.
So put that one to rest.
I confess I'm not very familiar with the newer non-Codex fluff. But if they're a literal splinter of the Iron Hands, as said in a previous post, then I think the culture idea still holds water.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Ferrus Manus spoke about the problem himself, stating his chapters obsession with bionics was becoming an unhealthy practice and that he was gonna abolish it but of course he died before he could do that. It really is only a culture.
Maybe for him. He never himself replaced any parts of his body with bionics, his hands were a direct result of fighting a C'tan. For the Marines whose geneseed was (potentially) infested with living metal, it could very well have been an actual biological compulsion. It could go either way. However, it's a pretty big coincidence that the sons of a Primarch with living metal hands subsequently became obsessed with replacing their body parts with metal by way of the same exact "the flesh is weak" mentality as the Necrontyr.
j31c3n wrote: But if they're a literal splinter of the Iron Hands, as said in a previous post, then I think the culture idea still holds water.
Conversely:
Darth Bob wrote: It's possible that the later foundings aren't as susceptible to the defect as those that came directly from Ferrus Manus.
But is there any evidence that IH successors are generally not keen on [unnecessary] augmentation?
The Blood Angels successors suffer from varying degrees of the Black Rage; the Lamenters almost never fell to it (though it's eluded that it may be making a resurgence in the 41st millennium). Same goes for the Raven Lords successors.
That's actually an interesting thought, regarding the Necrontyr/living metal that I'd never considered before. It's kinda cool, too. For the time being I'm going to file it in the same area as Alpharius speculation, though. Certainly fun to think about.
The other issue is, the IH (and the Sons of Medusa) have extremely close ties with the Cult Mechanicus -- perhaps even to the point of worshiping the Omnissiah. It is therefore little surprise that they too fetishize augmentation ... and again probably no coincidence that Martian culture seems to be heavily influenced by a C'tan.
Except the necrontyr had their reasons for favoring bionics over flesh, didn't they? The IH just seem to think flesh is inherently weak and prefer to replace limbs with bionics but they don't have a very specific reason to do so.
Couple of points: while the Lamenters appear to be direct successors to the BA, they are part of the cursed 21st Founding. So it's hard to say what explains their unique (among BA successors) genetic expression.
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Lord Tarkin wrote: Except the necrontyr had their reasons for favoring bionics over flesh, didn't they? The IH just seem to think flesh is inherently weak and prefer to replace limbs with bionics but they don't have a very specific reason to do so.
The Necrontyr were culturally morbid thanks to being plagued by radiation poisoning from their sun. In other words, they believed their flesh was weak and therefore inferior to metal bodies. Although no particular solar radiation is at issue, the Adeptus Mechanicus and IH believe basically the same thing.
Couple of points: while the Lamenters appear to be direct successors to the BA, they are part of the cursed 21st Founding. So it's hard to say what explains their unique (among BA successors) genetic expression.
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Lord Tarkin wrote: Except the necrontyr had their reasons for favoring bionics over flesh, didn't they? The IH just seem to think flesh is inherently weak and prefer to replace limbs with bionics but they don't have a very specific reason to do so.
The Necrontyr were culturally morbid thanks to being plagued by radiation poisoning from their sun. In other words, they believed their flesh was weak and therefore inferior to metal bodies. Although no particular solar radiation is at issue, the Adeptus Mechanicus and IH believe basically the same thing.
Is there a source available? If so, please do post it.
Couple of points: while the Lamenters appear to be direct successors to the BA, they are part of the cursed 21st Founding. So it's hard to say what explains their unique (among BA successors) genetic expression.
True, but they were just the first that came to mind. There's also the Carcharadons, who don't seem to have any of the flaws or features of the Raven Guard. Or the Raptors, who have a a Betcher's Gland despite the Raven Lords lacking it genetically.
Is there a source available? If so, please do post it.
For the reasoning behind the Necrontyr's "flesh is weak" mentality, just read the story in the Necron codex about their origins. For the Adeptus Mechanicus and Iron Hands...well... read literally anything to do with Adeptus Mechanicus Iron Hands philosophy. You'll see that they have quite different mentalities, even if their motivations are different.
They have one thing in common, though: some connection to the C'tan. The Necrontyr for obvious reason, the Adeptus Mechanicus with the Void Dragon being heavily implied to be the Omnissiah, and the Iron Hands being derived from a Primarch who was infused with living metal.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Ferrus Manus spoke about the problem himself, stating his chapters obsession with bionics was becoming an unhealthy practice and that he was gonna abolish it but of course he died before he could do that. It really is only a culture.
Maybe for him. He never himself replaced any parts of his body with bionics, his hands were a direct result of fighting a C'tan. For the Marines whose geneseed was (potentially) infested with living metal, it could very well have been an actual biological compulsion. It could go either way. However, it's a pretty big coincidence that the sons of a Primarch with living metal hands subsequently became obsessed with replacing their body parts with metal by way of the same exact "the flesh is weak" mentality as the Necrontyr.
j31c3n wrote: But if they're a literal splinter of the Iron Hands, as said in a previous post, then I think the culture idea still holds water.
Conversely:
Darth Bob wrote: It's possible that the later foundings aren't as susceptible to the defect as those that came directly from Ferrus Manus.
But is there any evidence that IH successors are generally not keen on [unnecessary] augmentation?
The Blood Angels successors suffer from varying degrees of the Black Rage; the Lamenters almost never fell to it (though it's eluded that it may be making a resurgence in the 41st millennium). Same goes for the Raven Lords successors.
Alright. So, I thought Ferrus Manus got his Iron hands by dipping a colossal silver worm in a river of magma. What's this about a C'tan?
BrianDavion wrote: I do think it's likely that genseed stability is only PART of the issue for new SM chapters yes. I suspect the IoM also values a high degree of...... political orthadoxy from the parent chapter
It's orthodoxy, but yes, absolutely agree. Otherwise the Dark Angels would have the highest number of successor chapters. Their geneseed is the purest. Or at least, the Dark Angel geneseed that gets tithed to the High Lords is the purest .
@Darth Bob -- The AdMech and IH have a lot in common. Like I said, it may even be the case that the IH share the beliefs of the Cult Mechanicus. That would go a long way towards explaining why the Moirae Heresy almost cost them a chapter war.
@Lord Tarkin -- The biomechanical dragon slain by Ferrus Manus is rumored among fans to have been a C'tan. I am not aware of a source that flat-out confirms it.
LOL nice coincidence about the SW-themed usernames.
Alright. So, I thought Ferrus Manus got his Iron hands by dipping a colossal silver worm in a river of magma. What's this about a C'tan?
Asirnoth has long been theorized to have been a C'tan or a Necron construct, especially with the descriptions of Ferrus' hands (rippling, chrome, seemingly alive) matching the descriptions of Necrodermis to a T.
Alright. So, I thought Ferrus Manus got his Iron hands by dipping a colossal silver worm in a river of magma. What's this about a C'tan?
Asirnoth has long been theorized to have been a C'tan or a Necron construct, especially with the descriptions of Ferrus' hands (rippling, chrome, seemingly alive) matching the descriptions of Necrodermis to a T.
If that is the case then Medusa should be covered with Necrons. But then again, maybe it is and they haven't awoken yet, Idk, I just find it hard to believe a single Necron being could be left on a planet. So it could be that or it just wasn't a Necron but something similar. Perhaps the Necrons aren't the only "living metal" beings in the galaxy.
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Manchu wrote: @Darth Bob -- The AdMech and IH have a lot in common. Like I said, it may even be the case that the IH share the beliefs of the Cult Mechanicus. That would go a long way towards explaining why the Moirae Heresy almost cost them a chapter war.
@Lord Tarkin -- The biomechanical dragon slain by Ferrus Manus is rumored among fans to have been a C'tan. I am not aware of a source that flat-out confirms it.
LOL nice coincidence about the SW-themed usernames.
Alright. So, I thought Ferrus Manus got his Iron hands by dipping a colossal silver worm in a river of magma. What's this about a C'tan?
Asirnoth has long been theorized to have been a C'tan or a Necron construct, especially with the descriptions of Ferrus' hands (rippling, chrome, seemingly alive) matching the descriptions of Necrodermis to a T.
If that is the case then Medusa should be covered with Necrons. But then again, maybe it is and they haven't awoken yet, Idk, I just find it hard to believe a single Necron being could be left on a planet. So it could be that or it just wasn't a Necron but something similar. Perhaps the Necrons aren't the only "living metal" beings in the galaxy.
Or it wasn't a Necron, but a C'tan shard that had been awoken by the populace a la Uriel Ventris and the Nightbringer. Also, there are other examples of Necrons being present in one form or another during the Heresy/Great Crusade era. Sanguinius apparently met the Silent King and Alpharius wielded a spear that is all but stated to be a Necron Warscythe.
Darth Bob wrote: Also, there are other examples of Necrons being present in one form or another during the Heresy/Great Crusade era. Sanguinius apparently met the Silent King and Alpharius wielded a spear that is all but stated to be a Necron Warscythe.
And there's always the C'tan phase blades used by the Callidus (I think) temple. I'm not sure when those first appeared but I know Codex: Assassins was out before Codex: Necrons.
Darth Bob wrote: Also, there are other examples of Necrons being present in one form or another during the Heresy/Great Crusade era. Sanguinius apparently met the Silent King and Alpharius wielded a spear that is all but stated to be a Necron Warscythe.
And there's always the C'tan phase blades used by the Callidus (I think) temple. I'm not sure when those first appeared but I know Codex: Assassins was out before Codex: Necrons.
Yeah, I can't remember if they were used pre-Heresy though. The only example of a Callidus during that era that I can think of was the one in Nemesis, and I don't think she used a Phase Blade. I'm thinking they probably started to see use after more of the Necrons started waking up, which would be post-Heresy.
I'd also like to mention that the new Necron fluff actually makes Ferrus killing a C'tan a lot more plausible. Since the C'tan shards are said to be mere fractions of the power a full C'tan would be, it'd be a lot more plausible that Ferrus would have the power to kill it. I know that this wasn't taken into account since the Ferrus thing predates the new Necron fluff, but it's interesting to think about.
Yeah, I'd argue that is the implication of the new Necron fluff. But the story of Ferrus Manus fighting the dragon comes from before that time.
I guess Necrodermis makes perfect sense, curtesy of the almost mocking descriptions but if that is the case then I would love for Necrons to burst from the surface of Medusa and fight the IH. It would be much more interesting that way.
I'm getting a kick out of where this discussion is going, since I model my snowflake chapter (which uses IH tactics) with Necron bits to represent bionics, and some pieces of Necron wargear on the characters...
Lord Tarkin wrote: .....I'm mildly interested now actually. Would you mind giving me a source for that please, Darth Bob?
It's in a short story called The Word of the Silent King by LJ Goulding. It takes the BA/Necron team-up and makes the whole thing a lot less cringeworthy, to be honest. I enjoyed it. It certainly makes more sense than how it's randomly presented in the codices.
Here's a quote from the book. Spoilers, obviously:
Spoiler:
It is curious what the humans choose to know of their past, and what remains unremembered. They do not heed the lessons that they have already learned, because they often elect to forget them. Perhaps, had he not fallen to illogical and prideful infighting, their Sanguinius-Angel might have steered them towards a more enlightened destiny. Certainly, he would have made a more amenable emperor than a preserved witch-corpse. If ever there were a human to be mourned, noble Szarekh would say that it was him. That alliance – the first alliance, perhaps? – might have ended the threat of the Devourer before it ever surfaced. At least, the tyranids might never have been drawn to this galaxy in the first instance.
Earlier in the book, it's shown that he had a Sanguinius Deathmask modeled in honor of his meeting with Sanguinius back in the Great Crusade era. He had apparently offered to ally with Sanguinius for an unknown reason, but it is implied he had foreseen the coming of the Tyranids and this was one of his first steps in preparing for the Hive Fleet's arrival. It's a really interesting read.
The "never having had a traitor" thing has never been ultramarines, to my knowledge. The specific example given was in the previous (5th edition) codex: Chaos Space Marines, which has an Ultramarines Sergeant left stuck on a world to supervise the de-tyraniding of it (or it might be de-orking, I can't recall) get frustrated with how useless normal humans are and essentially set himself up as a tyrant, which ultimately ends badly and with horns and noodly appendages, as you might imagine.
That's because Grey Knights are a bunch of "Nanananana, we're better than you!" Mary Sues. You can thank Matthew Ward for that. You can also thank the Wardinator for the whole "spiritual liege" thing.
The Ultramarines have the most Stable Geneseed and are the only ones (according to C:SM) that have all of the Space Marine implants/functions still. The Imperial Fists are inable to spit acid, for example.
That's why they are used the most to found more chapters. They have the best geneseed with which to found more chapters with.
The "never having had a traitor" thing has never been ultramarines, to my knowledge. The specific example given was in the previous (5th edition) codex: Chaos Space Marines, which has an Ultramarines Sergeant left stuck on a world to supervise the de-tyraniding of it (or it might be de-orking, I can't recall) get frustrated with how useless normal humans are and essentially set himself up as a tyrant, which ultimately ends badly and with horns and noodly appendages, as you might imagine.
BrianDavion wrote: I do think it's likely that genseed stability is only PART of the issue for new SM chapters yes. I suspect the IoM also values a high degree of...... political orthadoxy from the parent chapter
It's orthodoxy, but yes, absolutely agree. Otherwise the Dark Angels would have the highest number of successor chapters. Their geneseed is the purest. Or at least, the Dark Angel geneseed that gets tithed to the High Lords is the purest .
I tend to assume both Ultramarines and dark angels have the same level of purity. "almost perfect"
jareddm wrote: Prior to finding Vulkan, Salamanders had somewhat darkened skin and red-colored eyes. However, after starting recruitment from Nocturne and being reunited with their primarch, there was a much more noticeable darkening of their skin to coal black and there eyes practically glowed red.
Crazyterran wrote: The Ultramarines have the most Stable Geneseed and are the only ones (according to C:SM) that have all of the Space Marine implants/functions still. The Imperial Fists are inable to spit acid, for example.
That's why they are used the most to found more chapters. They have the best geneseed with which to found more chapters with.
Can you cite the specific passage that says that? Because all other sources I've come across only say their gene-seed is one of the most stable, not that its the purest. The Dark Angels are also repeatedly mentioned as having some of the purest gene-seed. As mentioned before in this thread, the reason their gene-seed is selected most often is because they are the most reliable, not because their gene-seed is the "best."
Crazyterran wrote: The Ultramarines have the most Stable Geneseed and are the only ones (according to C:SM) that have all of the Space Marine implants/functions still. The Imperial Fists are inable to spit acid, for example.
That's why they are used the most to found more chapters. They have the best geneseed with which to found more chapters with.
Jazzhands wrote: Yes its true. We Dark Angels are the purest. Never had anyone turn to the dark side. EVER!
And anyone who say we have is lying... or mad. Show me the evidence. What's that? it was blown up in a plasma explosion? a likely story....
What are you on about? That's hardly what I was getting at. I'm simply saying there's no fluff that states the Ultramarines have the "best" gene-seed. The reason they're selected most often is because they're the most reliable. Otherwise there are other chapters with gene-seed of similar purity, like the Dark Angels.
locarno24 wrote: The "never having had a traitor" thing has never been ultramarines, to my knowledge. The specific example given was in the previous (5th edition) codex: Chaos Space Marines, which has an Ultramarines Sergeant left stuck on a world to supervise the de-tyraniding of it (or it might be de-orking, I can't recall) get frustrated with how useless normal humans are and essentially set himself up as a tyrant, which ultimately ends badly and with horns and noodly appendages, as you might imagine.
Actually, I think that was a Sons of Guilliman Marine, Sergeant Constantinius of the Fourth Company. So not an actual Ultramarine, but descended from.
Either way, I has been always said that the most reliable and pure geneseeds are those of the UM and DA, and the UM are primarily chosen because of the Ultra's track record and such. Also, turning traitor is no fault of the geneseed, that is just plain Chaos trickery! Geneseed would affect the efficiency of all implants and how well they could be preserved and re-used for other Chapter members.
Crazyterran wrote: The Ultramarines have the most Stable Geneseed and are the only ones (according to C:SM) that have all of the Space Marine implants/functions still. The Imperial Fists are inable to spit acid, for example.
That's why they are used the most to found more chapters. They have the best geneseed with which to found more chapters with.
Can you cite the specific passage that says that? Because all other sources I've come across only say their gene-seed is one of the most stable, not that its the purest. The Dark Angels are also repeatedly mentioned as having some of the purest gene-seed. As mentioned before in this thread, the reason their gene-seed is selected most often is because they are the most reliable, not because their gene-seed is the "best."
I didn't say pure, I said most stable. They haven't lost any of their Organ/Implants, while many other chapters have.
I don't necessarily mean the chapter itself, (while the chapter itself hasn't lost any of it's Organ/Implants, who knows whats happened over 10,000 years) I mean the genestock that they use on Terra to found new chapters. They don't talk about the Ultramarines own personal stash when they discuss why so many are founded from the Ultramarines, just that the master copy on Terra is the most stable. You know, the stuff they scrape a bit off when they go to found a new chapter.
As for the Red Scorpions, they had to start their geneseed from somewhere, so it's not 'their' geneseed, it's whomever their parents chapter is that they happen to use for their recruits.
Ferrus himself allegedly wanted to purge his flesh of the living metal once the Crusade was complete. He felt that it was corrupting him in some ill-defined way. Perhaps he recognized on some level that his DNA was being rewritten?
Ferrus also allegedly felt that his Legion misunderstood his quest for perfection; Ferrus sought perfection of the Emperor's work 'in the flesh' as opposed to 'in the metal'.
natpri771 wrote: That's because Grey Knights are a bunch of "Nanananana, we're better than you!" Mary Sues. You can thank Matthew Ward for that. You can also thank the Wardinator for the whole "spiritual liege" thing.
Not.... really. The GK have always been incorruptible, most-pure, most-badass of Space Marines. Ward did nothing but capitalize on those aspects of their fluff.
Darth Bob wrote: I was under the impression that the Salamanders mutation was part of their genetics. I always thought it was a direct response by their melanin genes to the radiation on Nocturne. I could be wrong, though. Also, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Iron Hands have some kind of genetic defect caused by the genetic memory of the death of their Primarch, plus it's been alluded that their compulsion to replace their flesh with cybernetics is more than just traditional, but an actual genetic addiction.
From White Dwarf 274, Salamanders Index Astartes article: "As far as can be ascertained, the Salamanders' gene-seed appears to be stable and as yet uncorrupted. The reflexes of Salamanders Space Marines are not as fast as those of other Chapters, although still quick when suited in power armour. However, it is unknown whether this is due to a defect in the gene-seed, a result of their high gravity world, or comes about from the Chapter's doctrines against hastiness and impetuosity."
As for the Iron Hands, their "FLESH IS WEAK" nonsense is entirely cultural in my personal opinion. The Brazen Claws, Iron Lords, Red Talons, Sons of Medusa, and Steel Confessors are all IH successors and none of them are obsessed with mechanical augmentation. The Iron Hands dove off the deep end into their obsession with logic and augmentation because Ferrus Manus began to doubt it prior to Isstvan. Then he lost his cool and subsequently his head. His Legion (and later, chapter - Isstvan reduced their strength to the point they had no chapters to split into for the second founding) recoiled from his idea that they should lay off the logic and bionics and rushed headlong into it. Kardan Stronos is essentially the only M41 character to speak against the idea.
jareddm wrote: Prior to finding Vulkan, Salamanders had somewhat darkened skin and red-colored eyes. However, after starting recruitment from Nocturne and being reunited with their primarch, there was a much more noticeable darkening of their skin to coal black and there eyes practically glowed red.
Source?
Wait, but Ferrus Manus only had his bodyguard with him on Istvaan, the rest of his Legion was left behind as he went on a faster ship so that he could be in the first wave of Loyalists to attack
j31c3n wrote: ...Okay? What does that have to do with my post? I'm confused.
You said that the Iron Hands lost massive amounts of manpower and a lot of equipment and vehicles, but Ferrus only had the Morlocks fighting alongside him at Istvaan.
j31c3n wrote: ...Okay? What does that have to do with my post? I'm confused.
You said that the Iron Hands lost massive amounts of manpower and a lot of equipment and vehicles, but Ferrus only had the Morlocks fighting alongside him at Istvaan.
that doesn't mean the rest of the Iron Hands wheren't presence, just the Ferrus ran out ahead of everyone else
Istvaan is where the Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard were laid so low they were out of the fight for the rest of the Heresy. The three Legions have never really recovered from how hard they were beaten, even in M41.
j31c3n wrote: Istvaan is where the Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard were laid so low they were out of the fight for the rest of the Heresy. The three Legions have never really recovered from how hard they were beaten, even in M41.
Iron Hands Morlock Companies
80,000 Raven Guard
Salamanders
Imperial Army armoured units
Legio Atarus
Loyalists forces engaged on Istvaan V "
Source: Lexicanum
You will note that only the Iron Hands Morlock Companies (basically Iron Hands most elite warriors, maybe a couple thousand at most) were engaged there
Vulkan's Legion assaulted the left flank of the Traitors' battle line while Ferrus Manus, First Captain Gabriel Santor, and 10 full companies of elite Morlock Terminators charged straight through the centre of the Traitor Legions' lines. Meanwhile, Corax's Legion hit the right flank of the enemy's position.
Source: Wiki, regarding the Iron Hands within the first wave that attacked Istvaan V, and the Iron Hands that attacked.
You will notice that both sources agree that ONLY THE MORLOCKS WERE ENGAGED ON ISTVAAN V
Actually, you're both partially right. I have HH: Massacre right here in front of me. While the Morlocks were fighting directly alongside Ferrus Manus while he dueled Fulgrim, the entire Avernii Clan, which is much more than just Morlocks and was also Ferrus Manus's favored clan at the time, was present on Istvaan V with Ferrus Manus in the initial assault.
However, Avernii is still only one clan, and there were dozens of clans in the Iron Hands legion, of which only two-thirds were at Istvaan V.
However however, those Iron Hands ships that arrived later, were immediately set upon in the void war and suffered large numbers of casualties, so there were plenty of more losses beyond the Avernii clan, who were almost completely destroyed. But it is stated that because of this, overall the Iron Hands suffered the least of the three loyalist legions at Istvaan V.
The Iron Hands also had a large gene-seed reserve on Medusa, and a newly formed council of Iron Fathers immediately began working towards rebuilding the legion, but the fruits of those labors wouldn't be seen until the time of Terra. Meaning that as a cohesive unit, the Iron Hands did not have an overwhelming presence during the Horus Heresy, but would've recovered enough to probably play a significant role during The Scouring.
jareddm wrote: Actually, you're both partially right. I have HH: Massacre right here in front of me. While the Morlocks were fighting directly alongside Ferrus Manus while he dueled Fulgrim, the entire Avernii Clan, which is much more than just Morlocks and was also Ferrus Manus's favored clan at the time, was present on Istvaan V with Ferrus Manus in the initial assault.
However, Avernii is still only one clan, and there were dozens of clans in the Iron Hands legion, of which only two-thirds were at Istvaan V.
However however, those Iron Hands ships that arrived later, were immediately set upon in the void war and suffered large numbers of casualties, so there were plenty of more losses beyond the Avernii clan, who were almost completely destroyed. But it is stated that because of this, overall the Iron Hands suffered the least of the three loyalist legions at Istvaan V.
However however however, they also lost their Primarch, which is a massive deal both in terms of losing their leader/strategist and a powerful fighting force, but also had a big impact on their psyche. And it also meant they had no firm leadership which is why they splintered into the shattered legions alongside some RG that escaped with them and the surviving Salamanders.
jareddm wrote: Actually, you're both partially right. I have HH: Massacre right here in front of me. While the Morlocks were fighting directly alongside Ferrus Manus while he dueled Fulgrim, the entire Avernii Clan, which is much more than just Morlocks and was also Ferrus Manus's favored clan at the time, was present on Istvaan V with Ferrus Manus in the initial assault.
However, Avernii is still only one clan, and there were dozens of clans in the Iron Hands legion, of which only two-thirds were at Istvaan V.
However however, those Iron Hands ships that arrived later, were immediately set upon in the void war and suffered large numbers of casualties, so there were plenty of more losses beyond the Avernii clan, who were almost completely destroyed. But it is stated that because of this, overall the Iron Hands suffered the least of the three loyalist legions at Istvaan V.
However however however, they also lost their Primarch, which is a massive deal both in terms of losing their leader/strategist and a powerful fighting force, but also had a big impact on their psyche. And it also meant they had no firm leadership which is why they splintered into the shattered legions alongside some RG that escaped with them and the surviving Salamanders.
True, but in terms of simple numbers, which is really what seemed to have been what was being argued about, there were still plenty of Iron Hands around the galaxy.
