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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 02:45:05
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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Hey all. Some of you may remember me from a long time ago. I haven't been on Dakka for quite some time, possibly many months or perhaps a year or 2 but however, Lord Tarkin is back, and his ferocious debates have returned to plague the many forums of DakkaDakka. Now, for my first question. My intellect may be limited due to my absences, perhaps even more so limited than I originally thought. It has come to my attention that my kin and their dark allies have managed to sway an ULTRAMARINE in recent years? Could this in fact be true? Years ago, I read on Lexicanum and many other 40k fluff sites that Ultramarines have never had a traitor before but now, things seem to have changed. I have searched and I cannot find this being said anywhere anymore. No mention of the lapdog Ultramarines being "the purest" and a matter of fact, the Grey Knights have now acquired the title of never having a traitor (which will soon end, you fools). Is...this...true?
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"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 02:58:19
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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This is a lie and has never been true. Every chapter has at least one traitor that fell in some point in their history, obviously exceptionally young chapters being exempt. The Grey Knights are an anomaly and not really anything that should be compared with other chapters.
Not to mention being "purest" has nothing to do with falling to chaos.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/24 02:59:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 03:02:43
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yeah. Besides, in regards to that the Red Scorpions beat the UM years ago at purity.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 03:07:17
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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jareddm wrote:This is a lie and has never been true. Every chapter has at least one traitor that fell in some point in their history, obviously exceptionally young chapters being exempt. The Grey Knights are an anomaly and not really anything that should be compared with other chapters.
Not to mention being "purest" has nothing to do with falling to chaos.
I understand all that but what I meant by purest was obviously that they never had a traitor, which has changed in recent years but I know at least 3 or 4 years ago, UM were always known to have never harboured a traitor. And if they have had a traitor than who is he/they? Because if memory serves me right an UM sergeant (forgot his name) went traitor. Automatically Appended Next Post: And on the same note, the Grey Knights are for all intents and purposes a Space Marine chapter.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/24 03:10:28
"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 03:10:42
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Lord Tarkin wrote:jareddm wrote:This is a lie and has never been true. Every chapter has at least one traitor that fell in some point in their history, obviously exceptionally young chapters being exempt. The Grey Knights are an anomaly and not really anything that should be compared with other chapters.
Not to mention being "purest" has nothing to do with falling to chaos.
I understand all that but what I meant by purest was obviously that they never had a traitor, which has changed in recent years but I know at least 3 or 4 years ago, UM were always known to have never harboured a traitor. And if they have had a traitor than who is he/they? Because if memory serves me right an UM sergeant (forgot his name) went traitor.
There doesn't need to be name for a character just because they went traitor. The Ultramarines have been around for 10,000 years. They've had traitors. Most likely the records for them just get expunged or otherwise sealed away.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 03:12:57
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Arent there ultramarine successor chapters that have turned to chaos before?
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+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 03:13:14
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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jareddm wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote:jareddm wrote:This is a lie and has never been true. Every chapter has at least one traitor that fell in some point in their history, obviously exceptionally young chapters being exempt. The Grey Knights are an anomaly and not really anything that should be compared with other chapters.
Not to mention being "purest" has nothing to do with falling to chaos.
I understand all that but what I meant by purest was obviously that they never had a traitor, which has changed in recent years but I know at least 3 or 4 years ago, UM were always known to have never harboured a traitor. And if they have had a traitor than who is he/they? Because if memory serves me right an UM sergeant (forgot his name) went traitor.
There doesn't need to be name for a character just because they went traitor. The Ultramarines have been around for 10,000 years. They've had traitors. Most likely the records for them just get expunged or otherwise sealed away.
Again, I understand that but like I was trying to say, this was not the case years ago. Automatically Appended Next Post: sudojoe wrote:Arent there ultramarine successor chapters that have turned to chaos before?
Of course but they are never mentioned as counting "as Ultramarines".
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/24 03:14:52
"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 03:15:01
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Lord Tarkin wrote:jareddm wrote:There doesn't need to be name for a character just because they went traitor. The Ultramarines have been around for 10,000 years. They've had traitors. Most likely the records for them just get expunged or otherwise sealed away.
Again, I understand that but like I was trying to say, this was not the case years ago.
Yes it was. As I said before, being called "pure" does not mean you've never had traitors.
If you need an example, the story Daemonblood, which was published in 2001 features an Ultramarine turned champion of Nurgle.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/24 03:20:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 03:18:59
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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jareddm wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote:jareddm wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote:jareddm wrote:This is a lie and has never been true. Every chapter has at least one traitor that fell in some point in their history, obviously exceptionally young chapters being exempt. The Grey Knights are an anomaly and not really anything that should be compared with other chapters.
Not to mention being "purest" has nothing to do with falling to chaos.
I understand all that but what I meant by purest was obviously that they never had a traitor, which has changed in recent years but I know at least 3 or 4 years ago, UM were always known to have never harboured a traitor. And if they have had a traitor than who is he/they? Because if memory serves me right an UM sergeant (forgot his name) went traitor.
There doesn't need to be name for a character just because they went traitor. The Ultramarines have been around for 10,000 years. They've had traitors. Most likely the records for them just get expunged or otherwise sealed away.
Again, I understand that but like I was trying to say, this was not the case years ago.
Yes it was. As I said before, being called "pure" does not mean you've never had traitors.
I apologize, I don't think you understand what I'm saying. It's quite simple. Years ago, Ultramarines never had a traitor in their very long history dating back to the HH. Now it seems games workshop has changed the history a lil bit because the ultramarines are suddenly known to have had traitors.
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"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 03:19:21
Subject: Re:Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions
Caliban
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Look at it this way, 2/3rds of all successor chapters supposedly have Ultramarines gene-seed. Obviously they're going to have a lot of traitors, if not the most simply because of artithmetic.
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And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
My hands. They, too, are golden. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 03:23:10
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Lord Tarkin wrote:
I apologize, I don't think you understand what I'm saying. It's quite simple. Years ago, Ultramarines never had a traitor in their very long history dating back to the HH. Now it seems games workshop has changed the history a lil bit because the ultramarines are suddenly known to have had traitors.
See my edit. An example of an Ultramarine fallen to chaos from a source at least 14 years old.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/24 03:25:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 03:30:13
Subject: Re:Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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EngulfedObject wrote:Look at it this way, 2/3rds of all successor chapters supposedly have Ultramarines gene-seed. Obviously they're going to have a lot of traitors, if not the most simply because of artithmetic.
Well, I know that but I was referring to single chapters, in this case the Ultramarines, not necessarily their geneseed and all their successors. Automatically Appended Next Post: But nevertheless, jareddm has revealed to me a personally very confusing bit of information. Perhaps I have been brainwashed by my loyalist brother. Ultramarines never cease to annoy me, apparently.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/24 03:32:46
"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 03:40:12
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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You'd do well to look beyond their codex if you're looking for Ultramarine information that doesn't make a complete fool of itself. The next Forgeworld Horus Heresy book is predicted to be out in May and will feature the Ultramarines and the battle of Calth. They've made a great showing in the Horus Heresy imho.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 03:43:17
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Lord Tarkin wrote:Years ago, Ultramarines never had a traitor in their very long history dating back to the HH.
Can you cite a source for this claim?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 03:52:08
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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Manchu wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote:Years ago, Ultramarines never had a traitor in their very long history dating back to the HH.
Can you cite a source for this claim?
No, I can't because that said "source" doesn't exist anymore or perhaps never existed and as I have stated, I was fooled. Read more before asking questions I have already cleared up.
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"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 03:57:00
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Oh -- is this you admitting you were wrong? Lord Tarkin wrote:But nevertheless, jareddm has revealed to me a personally very confusing bit of information. Perhaps I have been brainwashed by my loyalist brother. Ultramarines never cease to annoy me, apparently.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 04:02:30
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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Manchu wrote:Oh -- is this you admitting you were wrong? Lord Tarkin wrote:But nevertheless, jareddm has revealed to me a personally very confusing bit of information. Perhaps I have been brainwashed by my loyalist brother. Ultramarines never cease to annoy me, apparently.
I prefer you not ask me to formerly admit to you (someome I don't directly know) that I am "wrong". I will assume you meant no harm, but since I was just asking a question, I was not necessarily wrong about anything, just trying to find some truth to the matter, which I have indeed found.
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"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 04:03:41
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller
Strike Cruiser Vladislav Volkov
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I ... have no idea what is going on in this thread. It seems like everyone is talking past each other. Ultramarines were never the "purest" except possibly in term of geneseed, and even then only in a very particular way of looking at it. Plenty of other chapters have pure and stable geneseed, the High Lords just favor them for creating new chapters for various reasons. Nowadays we have Forge World's Red Scorpions who are obsessed with genetic purity but I don't know if they necessarily have the "purest" geneseed themselves.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/24 04:05:13
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 04:07:37
Subject: Re:Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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sounds to me like you're confusing sources. when people refer to the purity of the Ultramarines they're not refering to "ohh they never had a traitor" rather they're refering to the Ultramarines GENESEED. which is noted as being some of the purest geneseed in existance (this is why the Ultramarines are often used to make new chapters ) compare the Ultramarines to the other sucessor chapters.
Space Wolves have some serious flaws in the form of the Wulfen.
Imperial Fists Geneseed is missing the Betcher's Gland and the Sus-an Membrane (despite the issues with this they're apparently a popular choice for sucessor chapters thus indicating the gene seed is very stable and not prone to mutation)
Raven Guard are a complete mess, and even before hand had the whole "Dark hair pale skin" problem going for em.
Salamanders have the coal skin red eyes thing
etc
the Ultramarines are noted for their gene-seed being both very stable and not prone to mutation. the dark angels can claim this as well but they don't get as many sucessors because no body trusts them
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 04:12:52
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Me either. Bottom line, jareddm has been correct since his first post ITT. Automatically Appended Next Post: BrianDavion wrote:the Ultramarines are noted for their gene-seed being both very stable and not prone to mutation
Plus it's complete, unlike (for example) the IF.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/24 04:13:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 04:16:56
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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Well, I'll never use Lexicanum again. I swear that's where I read about Ultramarines never having a traitor. This isn't the first time that place has come up with terrible sources.
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"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 04:19:37
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Lexicanum is generally pretty reliable. It's 40k wiki that you want to completely avoid, it is full of fan fiction.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 04:20:07
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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Manchu wrote:Me either. Bottom line, jareddm has been correct since his first post ITT.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:the Ultramarines are noted for their gene-seed being both very stable and not prone to mutation
Plus it's complete, unlike (for example) the IF.
It's not about being right or wrong, I was just looking for answers. You don't have to slight me.
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"Glory to the Iron father!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 04:34:44
Subject: Re:Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller
Strike Cruiser Vladislav Volkov
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BrianDavion wrote:Space Wolves have some serious flaws in the form of the Wulfen.
Imperial Fists Geneseed is missing the Betcher's Gland and the Sus-an Membrane (despite the issues with this they're apparently a popular choice for sucessor chapters thus indicating the gene seed is very stable and not prone to mutation)
Raven Guard are a complete mess, and even before hand had the whole "Dark hair pale skin" problem going for em.
Salamanders have the coal skin red eyes thing
Then there's the Dark Angels not being used often because they're suspected of Legion-building, and the Blood Angels have the Red Thirst/Black Rage.
The Salamanders have a very pure geneseed - their mutation is not caused by genetics, it's caused by exposure to the absolutely insane levels of radiation and heat of Nocturne and Prometheus. They don't have Successors because they don't have the manpower for it and haven't since Isstvan.
The White Scars and the Iron Hands, on the other hand... they have no geneseed issues to the best of my knowledge, yet they have very few Successors.
Tarkin, I don't think anyone is trying to slight or shame you. Cool down, man.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/24 04:35:52
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 04:44:04
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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[MOD]
Solahma
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EngulfedObject wrote:Look at it this way, 2/3rds of all successor chapters supposedly have Ultramarines gene-seed. Obviously they're going to have a lot of traitors, if not the most simply because of artithmetic.
The raw numbers do create a (potential) illusion, up to the point where I have sometimes wondered about the UM, whether something is off about them deep down. Of course, the relevant ratio may be very small compared to other chapters. We don't know. The other issue is, subsequent corruption cannot be solely attributed to the underlying genestock antecedent as new chapters can be formed from subsequent foundings (e.g., the Iron Champions). And the founding process itself can lead to problems. Let's just say that half of the Thirteenth Founding were direct UM successors. That by itself would drive up the UM ratio without casting any reasonable suspicion on the UM. Automatically Appended Next Post: j31c3n wrote:The White Scars and the Iron Hands, on the other hand... they have no geneseed issues to the best of my knowledge, yet they have very few Successors.
I think there is a positive correlation between Codex adherence and volume of successor chapters. That just makes sense, given the main point of Codex Astartes was limiting the size of SM formations. But it's also interesting to note that the spawning-Chapter probably has little say in the matter considering the High Lords control the gene tithe. So Codex adherence is probably, all other things being equal, taken to be a mark of genetic reliability. The main counter example would be the BA, who try to adhere to the Codex but cannot because of their unique problems. Whether they have a lot of successors overall, I don't know. But we certainly know about a lot of them.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/24 04:54:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 04:54:58
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions
Caliban
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Manchu wrote: EngulfedObject wrote:Look at it this way, 2/3rds of all successor chapters supposedly have Ultramarines gene-seed. Obviously they're going to have a lot of traitors, if not the most simply because of artithmetic.
The raw numbers do create a (potential) illusion, up to the point where I have sometimes wondered about the UM, whether something is off about them deep down. Of course, the relevant ratio may be very small compared to other chapters. We don't know. The other issue is, subsequent corruption cannot be solely attributed to the underlying genestock antecedent as new chapters can be formed from subsequent foundings (e.g., the Iron Champions). And the founding process itself can lead to problems. Let's just say that half of the Thirteenth Founding were direct UM successors. That by itself would drive up the UM ratio without casting any reasonable suspicion on the UM.
Yea, I didn't realize the OP meant the Ultramarines chapter only. When I think of the First Founding chapters, I tend to consider their successors as well. Too much 30K
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And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
My hands. They, too, are golden. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 04:55:52
Subject: Re:Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Huge Hierodule
United States
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j31c3n wrote:
The Salamanders have a very pure geneseed - their mutation is not caused by genetics, it's caused by exposure to the absolutely insane levels of radiation and heat of Nocturne and Prometheus. They don't have Successors because they don't have the manpower for it and haven't since Isstvan.
The White Scars and the Iron Hands, on the other hand... they have no geneseed issues to the best of my knowledge, yet they have very few Successors.
I was under the impression that the Salamanders mutation was part of their genetics. I always thought it was a direct response by their melanin genes to the radiation on Nocturne. I could be wrong, though. Also, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Iron Hands have some kind of genetic defect caused by the genetic memory of the death of their Primarch, plus it's been alluded that their compulsion to replace their flesh with cybernetics is more than just traditional, but an actual genetic addiction.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 04:58:19
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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[MOD]
Solahma
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TBF many (maybe all?) of the UM successors we know about appear to be direct successors. So if something is wrong with their genestock, that problem was either (a) inherited from the UM themselves of (b) a product of the High Lords' manipulations during the Founding process.
In 40k, there seems to be a kind of moral dimension to genetics. After all, many of the traitor legions exhibited no inherent genetic deficiencies (such as the SW or 1ksons). But their geneseed is sealed away and never (openly) used to create successors. Automatically Appended Next Post: Darth Bob wrote:plus it's been alluded that their compulsion to replace their flesh with cybernetics is more than just traditional, but an actual genetic addiction.
If true, I wonder if this was inherited from Ferrus post-reunification, and therefore has something to do with his own genetic makeup being altered by his encounter with the [C'tan?].
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/24 04:59:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 05:03:03
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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EngulfedObject wrote: Manchu wrote: EngulfedObject wrote:Look at it this way, 2/3rds of all successor chapters supposedly have Ultramarines gene-seed. Obviously they're going to have a lot of traitors, if not the most simply because of artithmetic.
The raw numbers do create a (potential) illusion, up to the point where I have sometimes wondered about the UM, whether something is off about them deep down. Of course, the relevant ratio may be very small compared to other chapters. We don't know. The other issue is, subsequent corruption cannot be solely attributed to the underlying genestock antecedent as new chapters can be formed from subsequent foundings (e.g., the Iron Champions). And the founding process itself can lead to problems. Let's just say that half of the Thirteenth Founding were direct UM successors. That by itself would drive up the UM ratio without casting any reasonable suspicion on the UM.
Yea, I didn't realize the OP meant the Ultramarines chapter only. When I think of the First Founding chapters, I tend to consider their successors as well. Too much 30K
Probably not a great idea, as minor variations in geneseed across chapters even of the same lineage could certainly make geneseed unique. We have no idea of just how many hundreds of minor variations in geneseed there might be between Ultramarines, Fire Angels, Doom Legion, Howling Griffons and many others. Probably mostly still compatible, but different enough to be noticeable. A slightly higher risk of the neuroglottis failing to take, a chance for a faulty mucranoid that produces a thinner than average resistant skin for example. All minor, but all still unique.
Darth Bob wrote:I was under the impression that the Salamanders mutation was part of their genetics.
It was a part of it. Prior to finding Vulkan, Salamanders had somewhat darkened skin and red-colored eyes. However, after starting recruitment from Nocturne and being reunited with their primarch, there was a much more noticeable darkening of their skin to coal black and there eyes practically glowed red.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/24 05:05:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/02/24 05:06:20
Subject: Ultramarines no longer the purest?
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Huge Hierodule
United States
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Manchu wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Darth Bob wrote:plus it's been alluded that their compulsion to replace their flesh with cybernetics is more than just traditional, but an actual genetic addiction.
If true, I wonder if this was inherited from Ferrus post-reunification, and therefore has something to do with his own genetic makeup being altered by his encounter with the [C'tan?]. I'm pretty sure this is briefly referred to in their Index Astartes entry. It's definitely possible that the C'tan's living metal altered Ferrus' geneseed in some manner. Even during the Great Crusade they were obsessed with hating weakness and frailty and were constantly preaching about how the flesh is weak. Perhaps the living metal that integrated with Ferrus' body also integrated itself into his geneseed, and tries to assert itself by making the Iron Hands prone to replace their bodies with metal like, say, Necrons.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/24 05:06:30
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