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 j31c3n wrote:
...Okay? What does that have to do with my post? I'm confused.

You said that the Iron Hands lost massive amounts of manpower and a lot of equipment and vehicles, but Ferrus only had the Morlocks fighting alongside him at Istvaan.

 dusara217 wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
...Okay? What does that have to do with my post? I'm confused.

You said that the Iron Hands lost massive amounts of manpower and a lot of equipment and vehicles, but Ferrus only had the Morlocks fighting alongside him at Istvaan.

that doesn't mean the rest of the Iron Hands wheren't presence, just the Ferrus ran out ahead of everyone else

Istvaan is where the Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard were laid so low they were out of the fight for the rest of the Heresy. The three Legions have never really recovered from how hard they were beaten, even in M41.

 j31c3n wrote:
Istvaan is where the Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard were laid so low they were out of the fight for the rest of the Heresy. The three Legions have never really recovered from how hard they were beaten, even in M41.

Iron Hands Morlock Companies
80,000 Raven Guard
Salamanders
Imperial Army armoured units
Legio Atarus

Loyalists forces engaged on Istvaan V "
Source: Lexicanum
You will note that only the Iron Hands Morlock Companies (basically Iron Hands most elite warriors, maybe a couple thousand at most) were engaged there

Vulkan's Legion assaulted the left flank of the Traitors' battle line while Ferrus Manus, First Captain Gabriel Santor, and 10 full companies of elite Morlock Terminators charged straight through the centre of the Traitor Legions' lines. Meanwhile, Corax's Legion hit the right flank of the enemy's position.

Source: Wiki, regarding the Iron Hands within the first wave that attacked Istvaan V, and the Iron Hands that attacked.


You will notice that both sources agree that ONLY THE MORLOCKS WERE ENGAGED ON ISTVAAN V

Actually, you're both partially right. I have HH: Massacre right here in front of me. While the Morlocks were fighting directly alongside Ferrus Manus while he dueled Fulgrim, the entire Avernii Clan, which is much more than just Morlocks and was also Ferrus Manus's favored clan at the time, was present on Istvaan V with Ferrus Manus in the initial assault.

However, Avernii is still only one clan, and there were dozens of clans in the Iron Hands legion, of which only two-thirds were at Istvaan V.

However however, those Iron Hands ships that arrived later, were immediately set upon in the void war and suffered large numbers of casualties, so there were plenty of more losses beyond the Avernii clan, who were almost completely destroyed. But it is stated that because of this, overall the Iron Hands suffered the least of the three loyalist legions at Istvaan V.

The Iron Hands also had a large gene-seed reserve on Medusa, and a newly formed council of Iron Fathers immediately began working towards rebuilding the legion, but the fruits of those labors wouldn't be seen until the time of Terra. Meaning that as a cohesive unit, the Iron Hands did not have an overwhelming presence during the Horus Heresy, but would've recovered enough to probably play a significant role during The Scouring.

jareddm wrote:
Actually, you're both partially right. I have HH: Massacre right here in front of me. While the Morlocks were fighting directly alongside Ferrus Manus while he dueled Fulgrim, the entire Avernii Clan, which is much more than just Morlocks and was also Ferrus Manus's favored clan at the time, was present on Istvaan V with Ferrus Manus in the initial assault.

However, Avernii is still only one clan, and there were dozens of clans in the Iron Hands legion, of which only two-thirds were at Istvaan V.

However however, those Iron Hands ships that arrived later, were immediately set upon in the void war and suffered large numbers of casualties, so there were plenty of more losses beyond the Avernii clan, who were almost completely destroyed. But it is stated that because of this, overall the Iron Hands suffered the least of the three loyalist legions at Istvaan V.

However however however, they also lost their Primarch, which is a massive deal both in terms of losing their leader/strategist and a powerful fighting force, but also had a big impact on their psyche. And it also meant they had no firm leadership which is why they splintered into the shattered legions alongside some RG that escaped with them and the surviving Salamanders.

 ImAGeek wrote:

jareddm wrote:
Actually, you're both partially right. I have HH: Massacre right here in front of me. While the Morlocks were fighting directly alongside Ferrus Manus while he dueled Fulgrim, the entire Avernii Clan, which is much more than just Morlocks and was also Ferrus Manus's favored clan at the time, was present on Istvaan V with Ferrus Manus in the initial assault.

However, Avernii is still only one clan, and there were dozens of clans in the Iron Hands legion, of which only two-thirds were at Istvaan V.

However however, those Iron Hands ships that arrived later, were immediately set upon in the void war and suffered large numbers of casualties, so there were plenty of more losses beyond the Avernii clan, who were almost completely destroyed. But it is stated that because of this, overall the Iron Hands suffered the least of the three loyalist legions at Istvaan V.

However however however, they also lost their Primarch, which is a massive deal both in terms of losing their leader/strategist and a powerful fighting force, but also had a big impact on their psyche. And it also meant they had no firm leadership which is why they splintered into the shattered legions alongside some RG that escaped with them and the surviving Salamanders.

True, but in terms of simple numbers, which is really what seemed to have been what was being argued about, there were still plenty of Iron Hands around the galaxy.