Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Alright. So, I thought Ferrus Manus got his Iron hands by dipping a colossal silver worm in a river of magma. What's this about a C'tan?
Asirnoth has long been theorized to have been a C'tan or a Necron construct, especially with the descriptions of Ferrus' hands (rippling, chrome, seemingly alive) matching the descriptions of Necrodermis to a T.
If that is the case then Medusa should be covered with Necrons. But then again, maybe it is and they haven't awoken yet, Idk, I just find it hard to believe a single Necron being could be left on a planet. So it could be that or it just wasn't a Necron but something similar. Perhaps the Necrons aren't the only "living metal" beings in the galaxy.
Or it wasn't a Necron, but a C'tan shard that had been awoken by the populace a la Uriel Ventris and the Nightbringer. Also, there are other examples of Necrons being present in one form or another during the Heresy/Great Crusade era. Sanguinius apparently met the Silent King and Alpharius wielded a spear that is all but stated to be a Necron Warscythe.
Darth Bob wrote: Also, there are other examples of Necrons being present in one form or another during the Heresy/Great Crusade era. Sanguinius apparently met the Silent King and Alpharius wielded a spear that is all but stated to be a Necron Warscythe.
And there's always the C'tan phase blades used by the Callidus (I think) temple. I'm not sure when those first appeared but I know Codex: Assassins was out before Codex: Necrons.
Darth Bob wrote: Also, there are other examples of Necrons being present in one form or another during the Heresy/Great Crusade era. Sanguinius apparently met the Silent King and Alpharius wielded a spear that is all but stated to be a Necron Warscythe.
And there's always the C'tan phase blades used by the Callidus (I think) temple. I'm not sure when those first appeared but I know Codex: Assassins was out before Codex: Necrons.
Yeah, I can't remember if they were used pre-Heresy though. The only example of a Callidus during that era that I can think of was the one in Nemesis, and I don't think she used a Phase Blade. I'm thinking they probably started to see use after more of the Necrons started waking up, which would be post-Heresy.
I'd also like to mention that the new Necron fluff actually makes Ferrus killing a C'tan a lot more plausible. Since the C'tan shards are said to be mere fractions of the power a full C'tan would be, it'd be a lot more plausible that Ferrus would have the power to kill it. I know that this wasn't taken into account since the Ferrus thing predates the new Necron fluff, but it's interesting to think about.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/24 07:28:11
Yeah, I'd argue that is the implication of the new Necron fluff. But the story of Ferrus Manus fighting the dragon comes from before that time.
I guess Necrodermis makes perfect sense, curtesy of the almost mocking descriptions but if that is the case then I would love for Necrons to burst from the surface of Medusa and fight the IH. It would be much more interesting that way.
I'm getting a kick out of where this discussion is going, since I model my snowflake chapter (which uses IH tactics) with Necron bits to represent bionics, and some pieces of Necron wargear on the characters...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/24 07:41:32
Lord Tarkin wrote: .....I'm mildly interested now actually. Would you mind giving me a source for that please, Darth Bob?
It's in a short story called The Word of the Silent King by LJ Goulding. It takes the BA/Necron team-up and makes the whole thing a lot less cringeworthy, to be honest. I enjoyed it. It certainly makes more sense than how it's randomly presented in the codices.
Here's a quote from the book. Spoilers, obviously:
Spoiler:
It is curious what the humans choose to know of their past, and what remains unremembered. They do not heed the lessons that they have already learned, because they often elect to forget them. Perhaps, had he not fallen to illogical and prideful infighting, their Sanguinius-Angel might have steered them towards a more enlightened destiny. Certainly, he would have made a more amenable emperor than a preserved witch-corpse. If ever there were a human to be mourned, noble Szarekh would say that it was him. That alliance – the first alliance, perhaps? – might have ended the threat of the Devourer before it ever surfaced. At least, the tyranids might never have been drawn to this galaxy in the first instance.
Earlier in the book, it's shown that he had a Sanguinius Deathmask modeled in honor of his meeting with Sanguinius back in the Great Crusade era. He had apparently offered to ally with Sanguinius for an unknown reason, but it is implied he had foreseen the coming of the Tyranids and this was one of his first steps in preparing for the Hive Fleet's arrival. It's a really interesting read.
The "never having had a traitor" thing has never been ultramarines, to my knowledge. The specific example given was in the previous (5th edition) codex: Chaos Space Marines, which has an Ultramarines Sergeant left stuck on a world to supervise the de-tyraniding of it (or it might be de-orking, I can't recall) get frustrated with how useless normal humans are and essentially set himself up as a tyrant, which ultimately ends badly and with horns and noodly appendages, as you might imagine.
That's because Grey Knights are a bunch of "Nanananana, we're better than you!" Mary Sues. You can thank Matthew Ward for that. You can also thank the Wardinator for the whole "spiritual liege" thing.
The Ultramarines have the most Stable Geneseed and are the only ones (according to C:SM) that have all of the Space Marine implants/functions still. The Imperial Fists are inable to spit acid, for example.
That's why they are used the most to found more chapters. They have the best geneseed with which to found more chapters with.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
The "never having had a traitor" thing has never been ultramarines, to my knowledge. The specific example given was in the previous (5th edition) codex: Chaos Space Marines, which has an Ultramarines Sergeant left stuck on a world to supervise the de-tyraniding of it (or it might be de-orking, I can't recall) get frustrated with how useless normal humans are and essentially set himself up as a tyrant, which ultimately ends badly and with horns and noodly appendages, as you might imagine.
BrianDavion wrote: I do think it's likely that genseed stability is only PART of the issue for new SM chapters yes. I suspect the IoM also values a high degree of...... political orthadoxy from the parent chapter
It's orthodoxy, but yes, absolutely agree. Otherwise the Dark Angels would have the highest number of successor chapters. Their geneseed is the purest. Or at least, the Dark Angel geneseed that gets tithed to the High Lords is the purest .
I tend to assume both Ultramarines and dark angels have the same level of purity. "almost perfect"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
jareddm wrote: Prior to finding Vulkan, Salamanders had somewhat darkened skin and red-colored eyes. However, after starting recruitment from Nocturne and being reunited with their primarch, there was a much more noticeable darkening of their skin to coal black and there eyes practically glowed red.
I admit to having a good chuckle at the OP's saying "if they turned traitor they don't count as ultramarines".
Good how. Carry on, then.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Crazyterran wrote: The Ultramarines have the most Stable Geneseed and are the only ones (according to C:SM) that have all of the Space Marine implants/functions still. The Imperial Fists are inable to spit acid, for example.
That's why they are used the most to found more chapters. They have the best geneseed with which to found more chapters with.
Can you cite the specific passage that says that? Because all other sources I've come across only say their gene-seed is one of the most stable, not that its the purest. The Dark Angels are also repeatedly mentioned as having some of the purest gene-seed. As mentioned before in this thread, the reason their gene-seed is selected most often is because they are the most reliable, not because their gene-seed is the "best."
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
Crazyterran wrote: The Ultramarines have the most Stable Geneseed and are the only ones (according to C:SM) that have all of the Space Marine implants/functions still. The Imperial Fists are inable to spit acid, for example.
That's why they are used the most to found more chapters. They have the best geneseed with which to found more chapters with.
Jazzhands wrote: Yes its true. We Dark Angels are the purest. Never had anyone turn to the dark side. EVER!
And anyone who say we have is lying... or mad. Show me the evidence. What's that? it was blown up in a plasma explosion? a likely story....
What are you on about? That's hardly what I was getting at. I'm simply saying there's no fluff that states the Ultramarines have the "best" gene-seed. The reason they're selected most often is because they're the most reliable. Otherwise there are other chapters with gene-seed of similar purity, like the Dark Angels.
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
locarno24 wrote: The "never having had a traitor" thing has never been ultramarines, to my knowledge. The specific example given was in the previous (5th edition) codex: Chaos Space Marines, which has an Ultramarines Sergeant left stuck on a world to supervise the de-tyraniding of it (or it might be de-orking, I can't recall) get frustrated with how useless normal humans are and essentially set himself up as a tyrant, which ultimately ends badly and with horns and noodly appendages, as you might imagine.
Actually, I think that was a Sons of Guilliman Marine, Sergeant Constantinius of the Fourth Company. So not an actual Ultramarine, but descended from.
Either way, I has been always said that the most reliable and pure geneseeds are those of the UM and DA, and the UM are primarily chosen because of the Ultra's track record and such. Also, turning traitor is no fault of the geneseed, that is just plain Chaos trickery! Geneseed would affect the efficiency of all implants and how well they could be preserved and re-used for other Chapter members.
Crazyterran wrote: The Ultramarines have the most Stable Geneseed and are the only ones (according to C:SM) that have all of the Space Marine implants/functions still. The Imperial Fists are inable to spit acid, for example.
That's why they are used the most to found more chapters. They have the best geneseed with which to found more chapters with.
Can you cite the specific passage that says that? Because all other sources I've come across only say their gene-seed is one of the most stable, not that its the purest. The Dark Angels are also repeatedly mentioned as having some of the purest gene-seed. As mentioned before in this thread, the reason their gene-seed is selected most often is because they are the most reliable, not because their gene-seed is the "best."
I didn't say pure, I said most stable. They haven't lost any of their Organ/Implants, while many other chapters have.
I don't necessarily mean the chapter itself, (while the chapter itself hasn't lost any of it's Organ/Implants, who knows whats happened over 10,000 years) I mean the genestock that they use on Terra to found new chapters. They don't talk about the Ultramarines own personal stash when they discuss why so many are founded from the Ultramarines, just that the master copy on Terra is the most stable. You know, the stuff they scrape a bit off when they go to found a new chapter.
As for the Red Scorpions, they had to start their geneseed from somewhere, so it's not 'their' geneseed, it's whomever their parents chapter is that they happen to use for their recruits.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
Ferrus himself allegedly wanted to purge his flesh of the living metal once the Crusade was complete. He felt that it was corrupting him in some ill-defined way. Perhaps he recognized on some level that his DNA was being rewritten?
Ferrus also allegedly felt that his Legion misunderstood his quest for perfection; Ferrus sought perfection of the Emperor's work 'in the flesh' as opposed to 'in the metal'.
natpri771 wrote: That's because Grey Knights are a bunch of "Nanananana, we're better than you!" Mary Sues. You can thank Matthew Ward for that. You can also thank the Wardinator for the whole "spiritual liege" thing.
Not.... really. The GK have always been incorruptible, most-pure, most-badass of Space Marines. Ward did nothing but capitalize on those aspects of their fluff.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Darth Bob wrote: I was under the impression that the Salamanders mutation was part of their genetics. I always thought it was a direct response by their melanin genes to the radiation on Nocturne. I could be wrong, though. Also, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Iron Hands have some kind of genetic defect caused by the genetic memory of the death of their Primarch, plus it's been alluded that their compulsion to replace their flesh with cybernetics is more than just traditional, but an actual genetic addiction.
From White Dwarf 274, Salamanders Index Astartes article: "As far as can be ascertained, the Salamanders' gene-seed appears to be stable and as yet uncorrupted. The reflexes of Salamanders Space Marines are not as fast as those of other Chapters, although still quick when suited in power armour. However, it is unknown whether this is due to a defect in the gene-seed, a result of their high gravity world, or comes about from the Chapter's doctrines against hastiness and impetuosity."
As for the Iron Hands, their "FLESH IS WEAK" nonsense is entirely cultural in my personal opinion. The Brazen Claws, Iron Lords, Red Talons, Sons of Medusa, and Steel Confessors are all IH successors and none of them are obsessed with mechanical augmentation. The Iron Hands dove off the deep end into their obsession with logic and augmentation because Ferrus Manus began to doubt it prior to Isstvan. Then he lost his cool and subsequently his head. His Legion (and later, chapter - Isstvan reduced their strength to the point they had no chapters to split into for the second founding) recoiled from his idea that they should lay off the logic and bionics and rushed headlong into it. Kardan Stronos is essentially the only M41 character to speak against the idea.
jareddm wrote: Prior to finding Vulkan, Salamanders had somewhat darkened skin and red-colored eyes. However, after starting recruitment from Nocturne and being reunited with their primarch, there was a much more noticeable darkening of their skin to coal black and there eyes practically glowed red.
Source?
Wait, but Ferrus Manus only had his bodyguard with him on Istvaan, the rest of his Legion was left behind as he went on a faster ship so that he could be in the first wave of Loyalists to attack
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
