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I guess it is probably not a coincidence that the Necrontyr were also completely obsessed with the weakness of their flesh ...

 Darth Bob wrote:
I was under the impression that the Salamanders mutation was part of their genetics. I always thought it was a direct response by their melanin genes to the radiation on Nocturne. I could be wrong, though. Also, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Iron Hands have some kind of genetic defect caused by the genetic memory of the death of their Primarch, plus it's been alluded that their compulsion to replace their flesh with cybernetics is more than just traditional, but an actual genetic addiction.

From White Dwarf 274, Salamanders Index Astartes article: "As far as can be ascertained, the Salamanders' gene-seed appears to be stable and as yet uncorrupted. The reflexes of Salamanders Space Marines are not as fast as those of other Chapters, although still quick when suited in power armour. However, it is unknown whether this is due to a defect in the gene-seed, a result of their high gravity world, or comes about from the Chapter's doctrines against hastiness and impetuosity."

As for the Iron Hands, their "FLESH IS WEAK" nonsense is entirely cultural in my personal opinion. The Brazen Claws, Iron Lords, Red Talons, Sons of Medusa, and Steel Confessors are all IH successors and none of them are obsessed with mechanical augmentation. The Iron Hands dove off the deep end into their obsession with logic and augmentation because Ferrus Manus began to doubt it prior to Isstvan. Then he lost his cool and subsequently his head. His Legion (and later, chapter - Isstvan reduced their strength to the point they had no chapters to split into for the second founding) recoiled from his idea that they should lay off the logic and bionics and rushed headlong into it. Kardan Stronos is essentially the only M41 character to speak against the idea.

jareddm wrote:
Prior to finding Vulkan, Salamanders had somewhat darkened skin and red-colored eyes. However, after starting recruitment from Nocturne and being reunited with their primarch, there was a much more noticeable darkening of their skin to coal black and there eyes practically glowed red.

Source?

I do think it's likely that genseed stability is only PART of the issue for new SM chapters yes. I suspect the IoM also values a high degree of...... political orthadoxy from the parent chapter

 j31c3n wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Space Wolves have some serious flaws in the form of the Wulfen.
Imperial Fists Geneseed is missing the Betcher's Gland and the Sus-an Membrane (despite the issues with this they're apparently a popular choice for sucessor chapters thus indicating the gene seed is very stable and not prone to mutation)
Raven Guard are a complete mess, and even before hand had the whole "Dark hair pale skin" problem going for em.
Salamanders have the coal skin red eyes thing

Then there's the Dark Angels not being used often because they're suspected of Legion-building, and the Blood Angels have the Red Thirst/Black Rage.

The Salamanders have a very pure geneseed - their mutation is not caused by genetics, it's caused by exposure to the absolutely insane levels of radiation and heat of Nocturne and Prometheus. They don't have Successors because they don't have the manpower for it and haven't since Isstvan.

The White Scars and the Iron Hands, on the other hand... they have no geneseed issues to the best of my knowledge, yet they have very few Successors.

Tarkin, I don't think anyone is trying to slight or shame you. Cool down, man.

I am cool.....thank you very much....

The motto of the Sons of Medusa is "purge the weak." I'm not sure they are a good example of a successor chapter diverging from its antecedent.

 Manchu wrote:
The motto of the Sons of Medusa is "purge the weak." I'm not sure they are a good example of a successor chapter diverging from its antecedent.

That's just a motto though. They really don't show a predisposition towards bionics or augmentation of any kind. Plus, it's kind of generic Space Marine fare.

Are you speaking from a source (a source says they are not obsessed with augmentation) or from the lack of a source (no source saying they are obsessed with augmentation)?

Also -- it stands to reason that IH successors are not just spouting generic SM lines when they scream PURGE THE WEAK.

The Sons of Medusa are not a traditional successor, either. They were not cooked up in the High Lords' labs. They are actually descended from IH clans. They voluntarily left the IH to prevent chapter war.

It's possible that the later foundings aren't as susceptible to the defect as those that came directly from Ferrus Manus. It's also possible that the genetic defect has disseminated over time and its effect on the Iron Hands has evolved into more of a cultural practice.

Personally, I put more stock in the former.

In terms of geneseed, I thought dark angels were the purest, though it obviously doesn't mean they can't be corrupted.

In any case:

The Badab War Part Two, p. 97 wrote:In character the Sons of Medusa owe much to their forebears, being utterly intolerant of physical or mental weakness in others and least of all in themselves. This obsession manifests most notably in a distinct preference for high levels of biomechanical and cybernetic rebuild among their Battle Brothers.

So put that one to rest.

Ferrus Manus spoke about the problem himself, stating his chapters obsession with bionics was becoming an unhealthy practice and that he was gonna abolish it but of course he died before he could do that. It really is only a culture.

 Manchu wrote:
In any case:

The Badab War Part Two, p. 97 wrote:In character the Sons of Medusa owe much to their forebears, being utterly intolerant of physical or mental weakness in others and least of all in themselves. This obsession manifests most notably in a distinct preference for high levels of biomechanical and cybernetic rebuild among their Battle Brothers.

So put that one to rest.

I confess I'm not very familiar with the newer non-Codex fluff. But if they're a literal splinter of the Iron Hands, as said in a previous post, then I think the culture idea still holds water.

 j31c3n wrote:
But if they're a literal splinter of the Iron Hands, as said in a previous post, then I think the culture idea still holds water.

Conversely:

 Darth Bob wrote:
It's possible that the later foundings aren't as susceptible to the defect as those that came directly from Ferrus Manus.

But is there any evidence that IH successors are generally not keen on [unnecessary] augmentation?

As far as I can tell, there is only a lack of evidence about the topic.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Ferrus Manus spoke about the problem himself, stating his chapters obsession with bionics was becoming an unhealthy practice and that he was gonna abolish it but of course he died before he could do that. It really is only a culture.

Maybe for him. He never himself replaced any parts of his body with bionics, his hands were a direct result of fighting a C'tan. For the Marines whose geneseed was (potentially) infested with living metal, it could very well have been an actual biological compulsion. It could go either way. However, it's a pretty big coincidence that the sons of a Primarch with living metal hands subsequently became obsessed with replacing their body parts with metal by way of the same exact "the flesh is weak" mentality as the Necrontyr.


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 Manchu wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
But if they're a literal splinter of the Iron Hands, as said in a previous post, then I think the culture idea still holds water.

Conversely:

 Darth Bob wrote:
It's possible that the later foundings aren't as susceptible to the defect as those that came directly from Ferrus Manus.

But is there any evidence that IH successors are generally not keen on [unnecessary] augmentation?

The Blood Angels successors suffer from varying degrees of the Black Rage; the Lamenters almost never fell to it (though it's eluded that it may be making a resurgence in the 41st millennium). Same goes for the Raven Lords successors.

That's actually an interesting thought, regarding the Necrontyr/living metal that I'd never considered before. It's kinda cool, too. For the time being I'm going to file it in the same area as Alpharius speculation, though. Certainly fun to think about.

The other issue is, the IH (and the Sons of Medusa) have extremely close ties with the Cult Mechanicus -- perhaps even to the point of worshiping the Omnissiah. It is therefore little surprise that they too fetishize augmentation ... and again probably no coincidence that Martian culture seems to be heavily influenced by a C'tan.

Except the necrontyr had their reasons for favoring bionics over flesh, didn't they? The IH just seem to think flesh is inherently weak and prefer to replace limbs with bionics but they don't have a very specific reason to do so.

 Darth Bob wrote:
the Lamenters almost never fell to it

Couple of points: while the Lamenters appear to be direct successors to the BA, they are part of the cursed 21st Founding. So it's hard to say what explains their unique (among BA successors) genetic expression.


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 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Except the necrontyr had their reasons for favoring bionics over flesh, didn't they? The IH just seem to think flesh is inherently weak and prefer to replace limbs with bionics but they don't have a very specific reason to do so.

The Necrontyr were culturally morbid thanks to being plagued by radiation poisoning from their sun. In other words, they believed their flesh was weak and therefore inferior to metal bodies. Although no particular solar radiation is at issue, the Adeptus Mechanicus and IH believe basically the same thing.

 Manchu wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
the Lamenters almost never fell to it

Couple of points: while the Lamenters appear to be direct successors to the BA, they are part of the cursed 21st Founding. So it's hard to say what explains their unique (among BA successors) genetic expression.


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 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Except the necrontyr had their reasons for favoring bionics over flesh, didn't they? The IH just seem to think flesh is inherently weak and prefer to replace limbs with bionics but they don't have a very specific reason to do so.

The Necrontyr were culturally morbid thanks to being plagued by radiation poisoning from their sun. In other words, they believed their flesh was weak and therefore inferior to metal bodies. Although no particular solar radiation is at issue, the Adeptus Mechanicus and IH believe basically the same thing.

Is there a source available? If so, please do post it.

For the Necrontyr stuff? Codex: Necrons. I'm not sure if it's in the new 7th edition Codex, but it's sure in the 3rd and 5th edition Codices.

On the Lamenters, The Badab War Part 1. On the Necrontyr, Codex Necrons (both 3E and 5E).

 Manchu wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:
the Lamenters almost never fell to it

Couple of points: while the Lamenters appear to be direct successors to the BA, they are part of the cursed 21st Founding. So it's hard to say what explains their unique (among BA successors) genetic expression.

True, but they were just the first that came to mind. There's also the Carcharadons, who don't seem to have any of the flaws or features of the Raven Guard. Or the Raptors, who have a a Betcher's Gland despite the Raven Lords lacking it genetically.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Is there a source available? If so, please do post it.

For the reasoning behind the Necrontyr's "flesh is weak" mentality, just read the story in the Necron codex about their origins. For the Adeptus Mechanicus and Iron Hands...well... read literally anything to do with Adeptus Mechanicus Iron Hands philosophy. You'll see that they have quite different mentalities, even if their motivations are different.

They have one thing in common, though: some connection to the C'tan. The Necrontyr for obvious reason, the Adeptus Mechanicus with the Void Dragon being heavily implied to be the Omnissiah, and the Iron Hands being derived from a Primarch who was infused with living metal.

Edit: Fixed messed up quotes.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Ferrus Manus spoke about the problem himself, stating his chapters obsession with bionics was becoming an unhealthy practice and that he was gonna abolish it but of course he died before he could do that. It really is only a culture.

Maybe for him. He never himself replaced any parts of his body with bionics, his hands were a direct result of fighting a C'tan. For the Marines whose geneseed was (potentially) infested with living metal, it could very well have been an actual biological compulsion. It could go either way. However, it's a pretty big coincidence that the sons of a Primarch with living metal hands subsequently became obsessed with replacing their body parts with metal by way of the same exact "the flesh is weak" mentality as the Necrontyr.


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 Manchu wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
But if they're a literal splinter of the Iron Hands, as said in a previous post, then I think the culture idea still holds water.

Conversely:

 Darth Bob wrote:
It's possible that the later foundings aren't as susceptible to the defect as those that came directly from Ferrus Manus.

But is there any evidence that IH successors are generally not keen on [unnecessary] augmentation?

The Blood Angels successors suffer from varying degrees of the Black Rage; the Lamenters almost never fell to it (though it's eluded that it may be making a resurgence in the 41st millennium). Same goes for the Raven Lords successors.

Alright. So, I thought Ferrus Manus got his Iron hands by dipping a colossal silver worm in a river of magma. What's this about a C'tan?

BrianDavion wrote:
I do think it's likely that genseed stability is only PART of the issue for new SM chapters yes. I suspect the IoM also values a high degree of...... political orthadoxy from the parent chapter

It's orthodoxy, but yes, absolutely agree. Otherwise the Dark Angels would have the highest number of successor chapters. Their geneseed is the purest. Or at least, the Dark Angel geneseed that gets tithed to the High Lords is the purest .

@Darth Bob -- The AdMech and IH have a lot in common. Like I said, it may even be the case that the IH share the beliefs of the Cult Mechanicus. That would go a long way towards explaining why the Moirae Heresy almost cost them a chapter war.

@Lord Tarkin -- The biomechanical dragon slain by Ferrus Manus is rumored among fans to have been a C'tan. I am not aware of a source that flat-out confirms it.

LOL nice coincidence about the SW-themed usernames.

When it comes to being pure, I know without doubt, that the DA have never ever had a traitor within their ranks... *ehem*

In all seriousness though, I thought the DA geneseed was the purest from that perspective.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Alright. So, I thought Ferrus Manus got his Iron hands by dipping a colossal silver worm in a river of magma. What's this about a C'tan?

Asirnoth has long been theorized to have been a C'tan or a Necron construct, especially with the descriptions of Ferrus' hands (rippling, chrome, seemingly alive) matching the descriptions of Necrodermis to a T.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Alright. So, I thought Ferrus Manus got his Iron hands by dipping a colossal silver worm in a river of magma. What's this about a C'tan?

Asirnoth has long been theorized to have been a C'tan or a Necron construct, especially with the descriptions of Ferrus' hands (rippling, chrome, seemingly alive) matching the descriptions of Necrodermis to a T.

If that is the case then Medusa should be covered with Necrons. But then again, maybe it is and they haven't awoken yet, Idk, I just find it hard to believe a single Necron being could be left on a planet. So it could be that or it just wasn't a Necron but something similar. Perhaps the Necrons aren't the only "living metal" beings in the galaxy.


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 Manchu wrote:
@Darth Bob -- The AdMech and IH have a lot in common. Like I said, it may even be the case that the IH share the beliefs of the Cult Mechanicus. That would go a long way towards explaining why the Moirae Heresy almost cost them a chapter war.

@Lord Tarkin -- The biomechanical dragon slain by Ferrus Manus is rumored among fans to have been a C'tan. I am not aware of a source that flat-out confirms it.

LOL nice coincidence about the SW-themed usernames.

Alright, I was confused for a moment there.

The presence of a a C'tan does not mean there have to be Necron nearby.