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Post by: david choe
are there time machine in 40K?
In the Warp... I know you can go forward in time.. but can you travel backward in time?
Like Chaos SM from 30K poping up in 40K ....
Has there been Chaos SM from 30K pop back up to real space in say... 20K?
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Post by: Shidank
david choe wrote:are there time machine in 40K?
In the Warp... I know you can go forward in time.. but can you travel backward in time?
Like Chaos SM from 30K poping up in 40K ....
Has there been Chaos SM from 30K pop back up to real space in say... 20K?
Apocryphal fluff from Ian Watson suggests the Black Library IS a time machine.
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Post by: Manchu
Time as we know it does not exist in the Warp. According to DH, there are cases where ships arrived at their destination before leaving (whatever that could mean).
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Post by: david choe
 Shidank wrote:david choe wrote:are there time machine in 40K?
In the Warp... I know you can go forward in time.. but can you travel backward in time?
Like Chaos SM from 30K poping up in 40K ....
Has there been Chaos SM from 30K pop back up to real space in say... 20K?
Apocryphal fluff from Ian Watson suggests the Black Library IS a time machine.
Then why not travel in there before the fall and fix things?
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Post by: Shidank
 Manchu wrote:Time as we know it does not exist in the Warp. According to DH, there are cases where ships arrived at their destination before leaving (whatever that could mean).
Since the Warp itself is raw energy and time itself is measured as such, time would be largely irrelevant in the warp. While it seems plausible for a time machine to exist, one would think the very nature of the warp would make it impossible to work with any kind of precision. Automatically Appended Next Post: david choe wrote: Shidank wrote:david choe wrote:are there time machine in 40K?
In the Warp... I know you can go forward in time.. but can you travel backward in time?
Like Chaos SM from 30K poping up in 40K ....
Has there been Chaos SM from 30K pop back up to real space in say... 20K?
Apocryphal fluff from Ian Watson suggests the Black Library IS a time machine.
Then why not travel in there before the fall and fix things?
Because the Eldar know better.
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Post by: david choe
Manchu wrote:Time as we know it does not exist in the Warp. According to DH, there are cases where ships arrived at their destination before leaving (whatever that could mean).
Yeah.. I've heard that too..
What I'm saying is that why nobody or faction trying to hardness this time travel power to their benefit?
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Post by: Shidank
david choe wrote: Manchu wrote:Time as we know it does not exist in the Warp. According to DH, there are cases where ships arrived at their destination before leaving (whatever that could mean).
Yeah.. I've heard that too..
What I'm saying is that why nobody or faction trying to hardness this time travel power to their benefit?
Like I said, the very nature of the warp means that doing so with any precision would be intrinsically impossible. The Black Library alone seems to actually work and it's inside the webway(and outside reality itself, for all intents and purposes).
No machine or mathematics would accurately predict warp spontaneity to such a degree as to make practical time travel functional in 40k.
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Post by: curran12
The nature of the Warp itself is erratic and unreliable. The instances of a ship arriving before it left are not repeatable, and that same ship may leave and arrive 5000 years late. Harnessing it is not feasible given the dangerous nature of the warp to anything but daemons, who can just burst through wherever the barrier is weak enough.
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Post by: Otto Weston
A theory I proposed a while back - including currents that go backwards in time.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/613298.page
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Post by: Manchu
david choe wrote:What I'm saying is that why nobody or faction trying to hardness this time travel power to their benefit?
Let's just think it through. Who would/could do such a thing? - Imperium: they have the motive (save Emperor) but they don't have the tech - Necrons: no motive -- they have made no progress since the War In Heaven that would give them an advantage - DE: no motive - they like how things turned out - Chaos Daemons: probably have little concept of time - CSM: disparate motives; Ahriman presumably has thought of this and not been successful - Craftworld Eldar: no motive -- they could not prevent the demise of the Eldar Empire back then, what good would it do to go back and try again? - Tau: no motive (things have mostly gone well for them) and they don't have the tech - Nids: no motive -- hunger is eternal
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Post by: david choe
Manchu wrote:david choe wrote:What I'm saying is that why nobody or faction trying to hardness this time travel power to their benefit?
Let's just think it through. Who would/could do such a thing?
- Imperium: they have the motive (save Emperor) but they don't have the tech
- Necrons: no motive -- they have made no progress since the War In Heaven that would give them an advantage
- DE: no motive - they like how things turned out
- Chaos Daemons: probably have little concept of time
- CSM: disparate motives; Ahriman presumably has thought of this and not been successful
- Craftworld Eldar: no motive -- they could not prevent the demise of the Eldar Empire back then, what good would it do to go back and try again?
- Tau: no motive (things have mostly gone well for them) and they don't have the tech
- Nids: no motive -- hunger is eternal
I was thinking the humans would want this because they have the gak end of the sticks for both Imperials and Chaos humans.
Whom ever travel back to 29000 should warn the Imperial of the Horus heresy and the Chaos human faction also should warn of Horus that he will die so.. don't feth around with the lower shield and just finished Terra and the Emperor quick.....
I mean... Chaos themselves should try to send their boys back to key point and harness whatever they wish....
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Post by: curran12
Each faction has problem.
As Manchu said, Chaos Space Marines are fractured. There is no dedicated ability to research. Not a lot of Chaos Gods devotees to research and study of time travel. Plus, as thralls of the gods, they also are at their whim, and the Chaos Gods are quite content with things. There's no need for them to go back to muck about with the Heresy.
As far as the Imperium of Man, it just isn't in the cards. Technology and its development is either stagnant or backwards, combine that with a rather justified fear of the Warp and nobody is going to go near that. As I said before, the Warp is unstable, and more to the point, there's no way to safely research it.
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Post by: Shidank
 curran12 wrote:Each faction has problem.
As Manchu said, Chaos Space Marines are fractured. There is no dedicated ability to research. Not a lot of Chaos Gods devotees to research and study of time travel. Plus, as thralls of the gods, they also are at their whim, and the Chaos Gods are quite content with things. There's no need for them to go back to muck about with the Heresy.
As far as the Imperium of Man, it just isn't in the cards. Technology and its development is either stagnant or backwards, combine that with a rather justified fear of the Warp and nobody is going to go near that. As I said before, the Warp is unstable, and more to the point, there's no way to safely research it.
We're still ignoring that the nature of the warp makes it impossible to perform accurate time travel. You're right when you say there's just not a way to research it.
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Post by: EngulfedObject
Using the Warp is basically like using a time machine, except it is extremely unreliable and dangerous, and is inhabited by malevolent gods.
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Post by: Shidank
 EngulfedObject wrote:Using the Warp is basically like using a time machine, except it is extremely unreliable and dangerous, and is inhabited by malevolent gods.
Going to sleep and waking up 7 hours later is a more reliable time machine.
And way less likely to kill you.
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Post by: EngulfedObject
Shidank wrote: EngulfedObject wrote:Using the Warp is basically like using a time machine, except it is extremely unreliable and dangerous, and is inhabited by malevolent gods.
Going to sleep and waking up 7 hours later is a more reliable time machine.
And way less likely to kill you.
Yea, which is why building a time machine seems entirely crazy in a universe with the Warp. The Chaos Gods would mess it up anyhow!
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Post by: david choe
curran12 wrote:Each faction has problem.
As Manchu said, Chaos Space Marines are fractured. There is no dedicated ability to research. Not a lot of Chaos Gods devotees to research and study of time travel. Plus, as thralls of the gods, they also are at their whim, and the Chaos Gods are quite content with things. There's no need for them to go back to muck about with the Heresy.
As far as the Imperium of Man, it just isn't in the cards. Technology and its development is either stagnant or backwards, combine that with a rather justified fear of the Warp and nobody is going to go near that. As I said before, the Warp is unstable, and more to the point, there's no way to safely research it.
I'm not saying to go looking for time travel, I am saying if it landed on your lap... go with it. It should be protocol for the Imperial who uses Warp travel that if they went back in time ... do something useful for the cause. This whole theory and concept in of itself is interesting and could be a fluff.
The Imperial should have a protocol that if somebody did went back in time... come and support the Imperial cause and save it from trouble.
Has there been a fluff that has some Imperial agent come back from the future and stated what must be done? I guess they have.. kind of like the Eldar Farseer...
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Post by: curran12
Again, that doesn't quite work as neatly and cleanly as you think it would. For one, there's no telling where or when a ship might pop out, so you'd need commanders who are absolutely perfect on all aspects of history, as well as armed with enough foresight to make such a move. After all, what if in stopping one war, you create a war ten times bigger?
I believe you might want to look into the Ordo Chronos,as taken from Lexicanum:
"This Ordo is believed to have been established to study the temporal anomalies or other such effects that might emerge within the vicinity of the Jericho Reach with a view to controlling or combating them. Inquisitors of the Ordo Chronos were particularly concerned with the effects of time distortions which could lead to a disruption of the proper flow of time due to unintended interventions in the past. Such actions are deemed as interference in the fate of Mankind and against the will of the God-Emperor. Over the course of centuries, the Ordo Chronos expanded their mandate to relate to all forms of temporal phenomena and include other such events that might be a deliberate attempt to interfere with the flow of time.[1]"
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ordo_Chronos
The Inquisition sees tampering with the past as something of an affront to the Emperor's plan, so to speak. Now there are Inquisitors who run the whole scale of how harshly they enforce that, but with an entire Ordo dedicated to ensuring it doesn't happen, I doubt they would give free reign to muck about in the past should it happen.
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Post by: david choe
curran12 wrote:Again, that doesn't quite work as neatly and cleanly as you think it would. For one, there's no telling where or when a ship might pop out, so you'd need commanders who are absolutely perfect on all aspects of history, as well as armed with enough foresight to make such a move. After all, what if in stopping one war, you create a war ten times bigger?
I believe you might want to look into the Ordo Chronos,as taken from Lexicanum:
"This Ordo is believed to have been established to study the temporal anomalies or other such effects that might emerge within the vicinity of the Jericho Reach with a view to controlling or combating them. Inquisitors of the Ordo Chronos were particularly concerned with the effects of time distortions which could lead to a disruption of the proper flow of time due to unintended interventions in the past. Such actions are deemed as interference in the fate of Mankind and against the will of the God-Emperor. Over the course of centuries, the Ordo Chronos expanded their mandate to relate to all forms of temporal phenomena and include other such events that might be a deliberate attempt to interfere with the flow of time.[1]"
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ordo_Chronos
The Inquisition sees tampering with the past as something of an affront to the Emperor's plan, so to speak. Now there are Inquisitors who run the whole scale of how harshly they enforce that, but with an entire Ordo dedicated to ensuring it doesn't happen, I doubt they would give free reign to muck about in the past should it happen.
So the imperial protocol for time travel is...if you did went back in time, you must do everything the same and let everything fall as is.
A space wolf ship went back in time to the hersy...and they don't warn anybody? They just hide in the shadows and live out 10,000 years to catch up?
If CSM from hersy era pop in 10,000 to the future...ther must be just about equal of loyalist or traitor form current time time going back to the past?
BTW- that order is no longer around.
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Post by: toasteroven
Aren't you guys missing one faction in the whole motive thing?
Orks: Instead of fighting everyone everywhere, they could get to fight everyone, everywhere, in every time, all the time. Truly the happiest of outcomes.
As for the technology... ok yeah, they probably haven't got that.
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Post by: curran12
I doubt there is a written policy in some kind of book that SPECIFICALLY says what happens when you go back in time but ideally, people are expected not to interfere with the Emperor's Plan.
Also, you need to keep in mind that should something actually make it back to Heresy era, there are a lot of things that are different. Chief among them is that there is no Astronomicon, the beacon that all 40k Warp travel needs to navigate. Even if a ship managed to pop out of the Warp in just the right time to actually influence something as monumental as the Heresy, they are not going to be able to just get to Terra. And it isn't like the clocks on the ship just roll back to the right time, either. That Space Wolf ship you mentioned would come out and go do their mission, they would only know something is wrong once they made planetfall or were otherwise given some huge sign of it. Likewise, communications are not going to be much help. We've seen how glacially slow communications are in the Imperium, and while in Heresy era things were better with clearer leaders, there is still that gargantuan backlog of communications that might not make it anywhere. The long and short of it is that, while we with perfect hindsight and an omniscient view of the universe can see it working, once you're commanding that ship, you can't tell.
Also, as far as Hersey era CSM, they already do that. Time flows differently in the Warp, so there are tons of Heresy-era Chaos Marines fighting in the modern time, including such big names as Abbadon, Kharn, Typhus, Fabius Bile, Lucius the Eternal...and so on so on.
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Post by: Shidank
david choe wrote: curran12 wrote:Again, that doesn't quite work as neatly and cleanly as you think it would. For one, there's no telling where or when a ship might pop out, so you'd need commanders who are absolutely perfect on all aspects of history, as well as armed with enough foresight to make such a move. After all, what if in stopping one war, you create a war ten times bigger?
I believe you might want to look into the Ordo Chronos,as taken from Lexicanum:
"This Ordo is believed to have been established to study the temporal anomalies or other such effects that might emerge within the vicinity of the Jericho Reach with a view to controlling or combating them. Inquisitors of the Ordo Chronos were particularly concerned with the effects of time distortions which could lead to a disruption of the proper flow of time due to unintended interventions in the past. Such actions are deemed as interference in the fate of Mankind and against the will of the God-Emperor. Over the course of centuries, the Ordo Chronos expanded their mandate to relate to all forms of temporal phenomena and include other such events that might be a deliberate attempt to interfere with the flow of time.[1]"
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ordo_Chronos
The Inquisition sees tampering with the past as something of an affront to the Emperor's plan, so to speak. Now there are Inquisitors who run the whole scale of how harshly they enforce that, but with an entire Ordo dedicated to ensuring it doesn't happen, I doubt they would give free reign to muck about in the past should it happen.
So the imperial protocol for time travel is...if you did went back in time, you must do everything the same and let everything fall as is.
A space wolf ship went back in time to the hersy...and they don't warn anybody? They just hide in the shadows and live out 10,000 years to catch up?
If CSM from hersy era pop in 10,000 to the future...ther must be just about equal of loyalist or traitor form current time time going back to the past?
I never knew about the Ordo dedicated to time. Good find!
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Post by: j31c3n
I thought there was some piece of fluff recently that implied the Necrons did hold time-travel tech?
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Post by: david choe
curran12 wrote:I doubt there is a written policy in some kind of book that SPECIFICALLY says what happens when you go back in time but ideally, people are expected not to interfere with the Emperor's Plan.
Also, you need to keep in mind that should something actually make it back to Heresy era, there are a lot of things that are different. Chief among them is that there is no Astronomicon, the beacon that all 40k Warp travel needs to navigate. Even if a ship managed to pop out of the Warp in just the right time to actually influence something as monumental as the Heresy, they are not going to be able to just get to Terra. And it isn't like the clocks on the ship just roll back to the right time, either. That Space Wolf ship you mentioned would come out and go do their mission, they would only know something is wrong once they made planetfall or were otherwise given some huge sign of it. Likewise, communications are not going to be much help. We've seen how glacially slow communications are in the Imperium, and while in Heresy era things were better with clearer leaders, there is still that gargantuan backlog of communications that might not make it anywhere. The long and short of it is that, while we with perfect hindsight and an omniscient view of the universe can see it working, once you're commanding that ship, you can't tell.
Also, as far as Hersey era CSM, they already do that. Time flows differently in the Warp, so there are tons of Heresy-era Chaos Marines fighting in the modern time, including such big names as Abbadon, Kharn, Typhus, Fabius Bile, Lucius the Eternal...and so on so on.
But that is my point...you got tons of CSM from the past in 40k...and in the hersy....it would have been cool to see current SM helping out in 30k.
In the SW example...so they landed and no orks....the planets is normal...with humans farming the planet as normal. They ask for date... The found out they are in 29k...they know their chapter history...maybe now would be the time to travel to places that needed help?
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Post by: Shidank
I would like to see a novella on David's idea. It could create some nice back-fluff.
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Post by: curran12
Possibly. Though at the same time, I can only imagine the response on the other said going something like...
Emperor: Hey, Russ, we got this ship full of guys who say they are with you.
Russ: Huh? No. I got everyone here.
Emperor: They say they're from the future.
Russ: Uh huh...
And then they shoot every lance battery at them.
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Post by: Shidank
curran12 wrote:Possibly. Though at the same time, I can only imagine the response on the other said going something like...
Emperor: Hey, Russ, we got this ship full of guys who say they are with you.
Russ: Huh? No. I got everyone here.
Emperor: They say they're from the future.
Russ: Uh huh...
And then they shoot every lance battery at them.
Malcador would quarantine them. They would likely have never seen the light of day, but he would have wrung every drop of intel from them.
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Post by: Psienesis
david choe wrote: Manchu wrote:Time as we know it does not exist in the Warp. According to DH, there are cases where ships arrived at their destination before leaving (whatever that could mean).
Yeah.. I've heard that too..
What I'm saying is that why nobody or faction trying to hardness this time travel power to their benefit?
Orikan the Diviner does exactly this. He makes a prophecy, and then goes skipping through time to make sure it comes true.
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Post by: dusara217
curran12 wrote:Again, that doesn't quite work as neatly and cleanly as you think it would. For one, there's no telling where or when a ship might pop out, so you'd need commanders who are absolutely perfect on all aspects of history, as well as armed with enough foresight to make such a move. After all, what if in stopping one war, you create a war ten times bigger?
I believe you might want to look into the Ordo Chronos,as taken from Lexicanum:
"This Ordo is believed to have been established to study the temporal anomalies or other such effects that might emerge within the vicinity of the Jericho Reach with a view to controlling or combating them. Inquisitors of the Ordo Chronos were particularly concerned with the effects of time distortions which could lead to a disruption of the proper flow of time due to unintended interventions in the past. Such actions are deemed as interference in the fate of Mankind and against the will of the God-Emperor. Over the course of centuries, the Ordo Chronos expanded their mandate to relate to all forms of temporal phenomena and include other such events that might be a deliberate attempt to interfere with the flow of time.[1]"
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ordo_Chronos
The Inquisition sees tampering with the past as something of an affront to the Emperor's plan, so to speak. Now there are Inquisitors who run the whole scale of how harshly they enforce that, but with an entire Ordo dedicated to ensuring it doesn't happen, I doubt they would give free reign to muck about in the past should it happen.
An entire Ordo doesn't mean much, though, there's an Ordo comprised of a single Inquisitor
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Post by: King Pariah
 Psienesis wrote:david choe wrote: Manchu wrote:Time as we know it does not exist in the Warp. According to DH, there are cases where ships arrived at their destination before leaving (whatever that could mean).
Yeah.. I've heard that too..
What I'm saying is that why nobody or faction trying to hardness this time travel power to their benefit?
Orikan the Diviner does exactly this. He makes a prophecy, and then goes skipping through time to make sure it comes true.
It's more like he makes a prediction and then uses his time machine to go back and fix (read as remove) any outlier he didn't take into consideration or failed to see when he originally made his prediction.
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Post by: koooaei
Shidank wrote:
Since the Warp itself is raw energy and time itself is measured as such
Time's definitely not energy.
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Post by: david choe
Time is a dimension and measure in....time...
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Post by: Grey Templar
People have gone backwards and forwards in time in 40k before, usually involving a Warp Travel accident. Ravenor did this in the Ravenor trilogy, and managed to get back to the future. But its not reliable in any way.
Time as we know it doesn't exist in the warp, or rather its not linear at the very least. There is always a semi-predictable time distortion done while traveling. IE: If you spent 3 weeks from your perspective traveling to a planet, but in real space somewhere between 18 and 30 days could pass. But in freaky accidents you could show up at your destination before you even left your starting point(effectively traveling back in time), or arrive weeks or years late(effectively traveling forward in time)
There was the story of a ship newly created on Mars setting sail on its maiden voyage, only to exit the warp in the same location 100 years before the ship was built. The ship was not in any records and was destroyed upon contact.
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Post by: david choe
 Grey Templar wrote:People have gone backwards and forwards in time in 40k before, usually involving a Warp Travel accident. Ravenor did this in the Ravenor trilogy, and managed to get back to the future. But its not reliable in any way.
Time as we know it doesn't exist in the warp, or rather its not linear at the very least. There is always a semi-predictable time distortion done while traveling. IE: If you spent 3 weeks from your perspective traveling to a planet, but in real space somewhere between 18 and 30 days could pass. But in freaky accidents you could show up at your destination before you even left your starting point(effectively traveling back in time), or arrive weeks or years late(effectively traveling forward in time)
There was the story of a ship newly created on Mars setting sail on its maiden voyage, only to exit the warp in the same location 100 years before the ship was built. The ship was not in any records and was destroyed upon contact.
See, this is one of those loophole in 40k stories that I disagree.
They know time travel accidents is "common" when using warp, but they have no protocol guideline ....
If ship x is detected, they should have protocol that it might be from the future or the past.
If I am not mistaking...it is almost allways never on schedule when using warp travel. The time scale is between weeks and years...
To open fire at a human ship unexpected schedule is silly.
Time exist in the warp, it is just not liner...whatever that means..if there is no time...then that is like frozen or freezes....no motion.
Oh and the Mars example... It is a different dimension.
Dim 1 ship went out at year 100 capt. Mike is it it.
Dim 2 ship arrived at year 1 same location and was destroyed. Capt. Mike is dead.
Dim 1 ship was lost and never arrive...gone forever capt. Mike died.
Dim 2 we destroyed some ship year 1. Year 100 we send a ship and that ship was lost and never found again. Capt. Mike is alive and lost with the ship (dead) in year 1.
That is how I view time travel. Don't get confuse.
If they didn't destroy the ship on year 1. Capt Mike might get to meet his great grand parent and tell them and the rest of mankind the next 100 years of future to come....this will change the future and this is now Dim2 because I doubt that the guy who won the life "lotto" will be the same guy from dim1, more likely, the winner will be people from that ship.
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Post by: koooaei
There was an ork Warboss who travelled back in time, met himself there and killed to get two of his favourite shootas!
BTW, if you're not familliar, Sergei Kikalev - a russian astronaut - is the one who's managed to travel in time 'the furthest' yet. He went 0,02 seconds in future due to spending 803 days in orbit 
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
Abaddon uses time travel to trick a daemon in the black legion supplement. 
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Post by: Mallich
If ship x is detected, they should have protocol that it might be from the future or the past.
This is 40k. Let's say an unidentified ship appears in a system. It could be a ship from the future, filled with secrets that aid the Imperium. Or it could just be filled with alien/daemonic/heretical horrors beyond mortal ken that doom the system to a fate worse than death.
It's always going to be the second one.
Humanity has learned from bitter experience to look every gift horse in the mouth. That's because every time they didn't look the gift horse in the mouth, said gift horse turned out to be [a steed of Slaneesh/filled with genestealer eggs/a donkey played by Eddie Murphy] and killed several billion people.
Also, the Warp will move you through both time and space. So:
Day 01: System AllGoingToDie comes under attack. System sends distress signal.
Day 12: The Imperial base at Bakka receive the message. Ships are dispatched to aid the system.
Day 07: The ships arrive 5 days before they departed.
What are they going to do? They're all the way over in system AllGoingToDie.
Option 1: They could try to head back to Bakka and hope that the trip is less than 5 days. Yeah, good luck with that.
Option 2: They could try to send everything they know of days 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12. But to who? The crew only know of the events that happened on Bakka. The people who would benefit the most from that information - the people of Bakka to whom the events are going to happen to - are on Bakka. Bakka might not receive those messages for another 5 days, thus making the messages utterly useless.
Option 3: Take advantage of the fact they arrived much, much earlier than expected. Help out the people of system AllGoingToDie.
EDIT, in response to David's question: Let's assume an average travel-time would be 20 days (both for the ship and for the rest of the universe).
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Post by: david choe
Mallich wrote:If ship x is detected, they should have protocol that it might be from the future or the past.
This is 40k. Let's say an unidentified ship appears in a system. It could be a ship from the future, filled with secrets that aid the Imperium. Or it could just be filled with alien/daemonic/heretical horrors beyond mortal ken that doom the system to a fate worse than death.
It's always going to be the second one.
Humanity has learned from bitter experience to look every gift horse in the mouth. That's because every time they didn't look the gift horse in the mouth, said gift horse turned out to be [a steed of Slaneesh/filled with genestealer eggs/a donkey played by Eddie Murphy] and killed several billion people.
Also, the Warp will move you through both time and space. So:
Day 01: System AllGoingToDie comes under attack. System sends distress signal.
Day 12: The Imperial base at Bakka receive the message. Ships are dispatched to aid the system.
Day 07: The ships arrive 5 days before they departed.
What are they going to do? They're all the way over in system AllGoingToDie.
Option 1: They could try to head back to Bakka and hope that the trip is less than 5 days. Yeah, good luck with that.
Option 2: They could try to send everything they know of days 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12. But to who? The crew only know of the events that happened on Bakka. The people who would benefit the most from that information - the people of Bakka to whom the events are going to happen to - are on Bakka. Bakka might not receive those messages for another 5 days, thus making the messages utterly useless.
Option 3: Take advantage of the fact they arrived much, much earlier than expected. Help out the people of system AllGoingToDie.
I really don't understand your example... sounds like Imperial ship arrived on day 7 and it should have arrived on what day? You didn't explain first that the travel time should be 1 day or 5 years? Lets assume that it was a 5 day journey and the ship should have arrive at Day17th....
By getting there at day 7 vs. 17... this is a good thing for the imperial. The system allgoingtodie got help 10 days ahead of schedule. Not a big deal....
But.... if the Imperial ship arrive 100 years before ... this is a big event. The is a bonus in a way. The Ship will know that in 100year and 1 day.. .the system will be under attack. This could be a useful prediction and they can take that to the bank. They can now report to Terra that 13th crusade will happen on year X and so on....
OR ... if the plot dictate that BAMB! the ship arrived 100 years too soon... so Allgoingtodie system destroyed that ship right away.
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Post by: Iracundus
The problem with time travel in any story is it swiftly risks interfering with causality and collapsing things into nonsense. There are various narrative ways around that but we don't know if GW has a particular policy applying to 40K:
1) Changing the past in any large scale way is impossible and events conspire to prevent any large scale change
For example, say an Eldar tries to go back from 40K to pre-Fall times to warn people against becoming decadent. They fail to convince anyone and are dismissed as crazy and Fall proceeds anyway. At best, maybe this Eldar from the future convinces a few individual Eldar and these individuals flee with Exodites or the Craftworlds and survive when they might otherwise not have. Sure the past has changed slightly, but 10,000 years later the big picture is still essentially the same.
2) Change is possible but then the alternate timeline splits off, leaving things unchanged for the observers in the original timeline
Using example from above, Eldar from the future somehow prevents the Fall. This forks the timeline, with timeline 1 being the 40K timeline and timeline 2 being a new alternate timeline where the Eldar Empire still exists. From the perspective of the 40k timeline Eldar, nothing has changed and the Fall still occurred.
3) Events conspire so that attempts to prevent the past end up ensuring it comes to pass when it otherwise might not have.
This has been used by GW before. There is a Black Library book, Desert Raiders, in which 2 Imperial Guard regiments are sent to investigate an uninhabited planet with no apparent known Imperial forces there after receiving a garbled Astropath message filled with terror and image of the shreds of an Imperial flag. They discover Tyranids and are overwhelmed. Just before the last of them fall after a last stand around their standards, the Astropath sends off a desperate terror filled message trying to warn people not to go to the planet. The message gets garbled and transmitted back in time to be received by their past selves, who then go on to investigate the planet they would otherwise have ignored etc...
A similar loop occurs in Gav Thorpe's Path of the Eldar books wherein the new Eldar Farseer's desperate attempts to prevent the attack on the craftworld she keeps seeing ends up actually causing it.
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Post by: david choe
Iracundus wrote:The problem with time travel in any story is it swiftly risks interfering with causality and collapsing things into nonsense. There are various narrative ways around that but we don't know if GW has a particular policy applying to 40K:
1) Changing the past in any large scale way is impossible and events conspire to prevent any large scale change
For example, say an Eldar tries to go back from 40K to pre-Fall times to warn people against becoming decadent. They fail to convince anyone and are dismissed as crazy and Fall proceeds anyway. At best, maybe this Eldar from the future convinces a few individual Eldar and these individuals flee with Exodites or the Craftworlds and survive when they might otherwise not have. Sure the past has changed slightly, but 10,000 years later the big picture is still essentially the same.
2) Change is possible but then the alternate timeline splits off, leaving things unchanged for the observers in the original timeline
Using example from above, Eldar from the future somehow prevents the Fall. This forks the timeline, with timeline 1 being the 40K timeline and timeline 2 being a new alternate timeline where the Eldar Empire still exists. From the perspective of the 40k timeline Eldar, nothing has changed and the Fall still occurred.
3) Events conspire so that attempts to prevent the past end up ensuring it comes to pass when it otherwise might not have.
This has been used by GW before. There is a Black Library book, Desert Raiders, in which 2 Imperial Guard regiments are sent to investigate an uninhabited planet with no apparent known Imperial forces there after receiving a garbled Astropath message filled with terror and image of the shreds of an Imperial flag. They discover Tyranids and are overwhelmed. Just before the last of them fall after a last stand around their standards, the Astropath sends off a desperate terror filled message trying to warn people not to go to the planet. The message gets garbled and transmitted back in time to be received by their past selves, who then go on to investigate the planet they would otherwise have ignored etc...
A similar loop occurs in Gav Thorpe's Path of the Eldar books wherein the new Eldar Farseer's desperate attempts to prevent the attack on the craftworld she keeps seeing ends up actually causing it.
I agree with the idea of muti timeline. Perhaps there are time line that Chaos has destroyed the universe in 40K or Emperor has won in 40K....we don't know.
I think the time travel discussion is just too deep for 40K to get too much into with out it becoming too central focus. This will take away the fluff of the 40K universe. In this grim dark universe of 40K and man is about to be destroyed... time travel might be their last hope. Go back and change the past or go forward and run away from the current destructive factions.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
In 40k's case, I'd go with stable time loops. Every time traveller who tries to change something already did, and that's why the present is how it is.
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Post by: SirDonlad
Theres that bit of fluff where some warp entity (can't remember what/who) takes some traitor marines (can't remember who) back to the chamber where the primarchs are being created and the warp entity (whomever it is) warns the traitors (whomever they are) not to touch anything because the emperor will sense them and destroy them. so it is possible but it feels like you can't make a machine specifically to do it.
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Post by: Poly Ranger
It is impossible.
Let us take the Space Wolf Battlecruiser mentioned earlier. Say events even pan out in the best possible way.
-Goes back in time to before Horus was corrupted.
-Warns Horus about Chaos and what will happen.
-Horus listens and is prevented from turning to chaos.
-Horus Heresy fails to happen.
-Space Wolves (who came back in times) timeline ceases to exist.
-Space Wolves in question cease to exist.
-Space Wolves unable to go back in time to warn Horus as they do no exist.
-Horus does not get the warning.
-It all plays out like it did.
Due to the butterfly effect, it is impossible to alter time without altering yourself/your decisions that influenced you to go back in time in the first place, thus preventing you going back in time to change that specific thing in the first place (you wouldn't still go back in time to stop something which never actually happened, thus by not going back to stop it, it actually happens).
It's why the movie Looper does not work when you think about it for more than a split second.
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Post by: david choe
Poly Ranger wrote:It is impossible.
Let us take the Space Wolf Battlecruiser mentioned earlier. Say events even pan out in the best possible way.
-Goes back in time to before Horus was corrupted.
-Warns Horus about Chaos and what will happen.
-Horus listens and is prevented from turning to chaos.
-Horus Heresy fails to happen.
-Space Wolves (who came back in times) timeline ceases to exist.
-Space Wolves in question cease to exist.
-Space Wolves unable to go back in time to warn Horus as they do no exist.
-Horus does not get the warning.
-It all plays out like it did.
Due to the butterfly effect, it is impossible to alter time without altering yourself/your decisions that influenced you to go back in time in the first place, thus preventing you going back in time to change that specific thing in the first place (you wouldn't still go back in time to stop something which never actually happened, thus by not going back to stop it, it actually happens).
It's why the movie Looper does not work when you think about it for more than a split second.[/quote
Well, it depends how this universe view time. Some universe only have one time line and other have multiple timeline.
There is one flaw in your example you assume that this current time line is the primer or the true timeline.
In your example..Horus stop the heresy and then cause the SW to cease to exist so they can't go back...but they don't need to go back because Horus didn't turn traitor.
Also - maybe the primer time line should be heresy free...meaning that 40k wars is not suppose to be here... SW fix everything and emperor is alive and well and human ruled the galaxy.
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Post by: Poly Ranger
But if the Heresy didn't happen then the SW don't go back to stop it, thus they do not stop it, thus it happens. A paradox.
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As they are now no longer there to stop it, hence it still needs to be stopped, because they failed to stop it themselves as their actions caused them to cease to exist.
In otherwords, by stopping it, they cause themselves to fail to stop it. Giving the paradox.
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Post by: david choe
Poly Ranger wrote:But if the Heresy didn't happen then the SW don't go back to stop it, thus they do not stop it, thus it happens. A paradox.
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As they are now no longer there to stop it, hence it still needs to be stopped, because they failed to stop it themselves as their actions caused them to cease to exist.
In otherwords, by stopping it, they cause themselves to fail to stop it. Giving the paradox.
s
There is no paradox if the heresy free is the primer timeline. Meaning that Horus should never turned traitor, some how chaos got him to turn. SW went back to fix the time as it should have been. So Horus stays loyal... SW started to fade from existence in30k....and this timeline is the primer now.....then
In 40k...those SW who went back in time from the other time line are now borne and now alive...and are free to make their own time line. They don't go back now...this is a new timeline for them. This new timeline is new and we don't know the outcome.
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Post by: Poly Ranger
But upon completing their task of stopping Horus turning, they would not merely begin to fade from existance, they would have stopped existing entirely BEFORE they even made contact with Horus (and thus not actually stopped him) as they would never have gone back in time in the first place as they wouldn't have existed.
They definitely wouldn't have been born in the future if the HH didn't happen, as that would require that, despite the lack of a cataclysmic (for the imperium) war, then the lack of 10,000 years of oppression and also the lack of multiple wars that resulted from that, the exact same people would have to meet and copulate at the exact same time for the exact same sperm to fertilize the exact same egg, over and over for 10,000 years worth of generations across the entire galaxy. Which lets face it - would just never happen.
The same applies to the reverse. If the original timeline was supposed to be Horus staying loyal, then chaos could not have timetravelled to get him to turn, because if they did then their future selves would not have needed to go back in time to turn Horus, thus they wouldn't have done, thus Horus remains unturned.
As to the theory mentioned previously of timelines being parallel universes and the same timeline continuing but a different one affected... well that's not really time travel at all - that's parallel universe travel.
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Post by: david choe
Poly Ranger wrote:But upon completing their task of stopping Horus turning, they would not merely begin to fade from existance, they would have stopped existing entirely BEFORE they even made contact with Horus (and thus not actually stopped him) as they would never have gone back in time in the first place as they wouldn't have existed.
They definitely wouldn't have been born in the future if the HH didn't happen, as that would require that, despite the lack of a cataclysmic (for the imperium) war, then the lack of 10,000 years of oppression and also the lack of multiple wars that resulted from that, the exact same people would have to meet and copulate at the exact same time for the exact same sperm to fertilize the exact same egg, over and over for 10,000 years worth of generations across the entire galaxy. Which lets face it - would just never happen.
The same applies to the reverse. If the original timeline was supposed to be Horus staying loyal, then chaos could not have timetravelled to get him to turn, because if they did then their future selves would not have needed to go back in time to turn Horus, thus they wouldn't have done, thus Horus remains unturned.
As to the theory mentioned previously of timelines being parallel universes and the same timeline continuing but a different one affected... well that's not really time travel at all - that's parallel universe travel.
You don't understand the concept of multiple timeline?
What you are debating with me is based on one timeline theory. There are other theories in time travel such as multiple timeline.
Most people accepted the multiple theory because you are breaking time and already causing time to split in to more than one out come.
In my example
Timeline heresy 1 SW goback and fix things which create heresy free time line 2. After SW left ...regardless if SW is sucessful or not, this timeline 1 continue as is...nothing will change....heresy already happened and will stays as is for this timeline.
Timeline 2 no heresy - SW can continue to exist or vanish...depends on the narrative...but SW fixed everything and no heresy. This future is not know by us.
Timeline 3 heresy - SW went back and tried to stop Horus...but failed or even cause heresy to happened! SW dies in the heresy war....then 10,0000 years... SW are now born and alive to continue the loop by going back not knowing they caused the heresy.
This is why I think timetravel will cause multiple timeline.
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Post by: Poly Ranger
I understand it. But that is not actually technically timetravel. If you end up on a different timeline compared to the one you left (and your original timeline continued the same), what you have actually done is travel to a parallel universe. Different timelines would be parallel universes to each other.
It is impossible to actually change your own timeline thus making time travel on your own timeline (real time travel), impossible due to the butterfly effect.
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Post by: david choe
Poly Ranger wrote:I understand it. But that is not actually technically timetravel. If you end up on a different timeline compared to the one you left (and your original timeline continued the same), what you have actually done is travel to a parallel universe. Different timelines would be parallel universes to each other.
It is impossible to actually change your own timeline thus making time travel on your own timeline (real time travel), impossible due to the butterfly effect.
You are not picking on the word time travel. Btw SW went back in time, so it is time travel.nothing has changed up to that point...they are the one who will change the timeline. That is the whole concept of time timetravel...you go back and change things or not...but it is the same time.
What you are suggesting is parallel travel in time...like SW goes back to this other parallel time where Horus never commit the heresy and enjoy this wonderful timeline with out doing anything.
My example is not that...they went back to create or hope to create a new timeline which can change the future of mankind. This is time traveling.
You have to understand from the primer pov ( SW) their timeline 1 is gone and they can't hope to chage or fix anything...the second they jump off it...they are gone....now they are in timeline 2,,.. And the future of this timeline 2 will be indentical to time line one if they don't make a change like stop the heresy.
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Post by: Poly Ranger
No you're misrepresenting what I'm saying there. What I am saying is IF they went back and managed to change the timeline (as in - Horus would have rebelled if they hadn't) and still existed as did the timeline, they would be on a parallel timeline not their own. If it was their own timeline, it would be impossible for the reasons mentioned previously.
If they do happen to be in a parallel universe, they will not have travelled back in time, they will have just travelled to 30k of this parallel universe. They have not travelled backwards in time as that would require them to travel on their own timeline.
Think of it this way: draw 2 lines originating from a point. These represent 2 seperate linear timelines branching from a seperate point in time. Going up each line represents going forward in time, going down each line represents going backward in time. Now label 3cm and 4cm along one line "30k 1" and "40k 1". Now label on your second line 3cm and 4cm along "30k 2" and "40k 2". Now draw a line from "40k 1" to "30k 2". At anypoint did you go back along line 1? Going backwards on the timeline represents going back in time, skipping to any point on parallel timeline involves no timetravel whatsoever, rather, travel across parallel universes (or multiverses). Hence the idea/name of a timemachine in fiction is misrepresentational - what it actually usually refers to is a machine which can travel across parallel universes. Otherwise we reach a logic paradox.
Technically to make things more understandable, you could say they have travelled in time as they started off at 40k and ended up at 30k (not the same 30k - important distinction), but if it is a parallel universe (the only possible way to do it whilst changing the timeline) this is not actually the case (as timetravel would have required them to travel to their 30k).
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I think we are probably in agreement about everything barring our definitions of timetravel.
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Post by: david choe
Poly Ranger wrote:No you're misrepresenting what I'm saying there. What I am saying is IF they went back and managed to change the timeline (as in - Horus would have rebelled if they hadn't) and still existed as did the timeline, they would be on a parallel timeline not their own. If it was their own timeline, it would be impossible for the reasons mentioned previously.
If they do happen to be in a parallel universe, they will not have travelled back in time, they will have just travelled to 30k of this parallel universe. They have not travelled backwards in time as that would require them to travel on their own timeline.
Think of it this way: draw 2 lines originating from a point. These represent 2 seperate linear timelines branching from a seperate point in time. Going up each line represents going forward in time, going down each line represents going backward in time. Now label 3cm and 4cm along one line "30k 1" and " 40k 1". Now label on your second line 3cm and 4cm along "30k 2" and " 40k 2". Now draw a line from " 40k 1" to "30k 2". At anypoint did you go back along line 1? Going backwards on the timeline represents going back in time, skipping to any point on parallel timeline involves no timetravel whatsoever, rather, travel across parallel universes (or multiverses). Hence the idea/name of a timemachine in fiction is misrepresentational - what it actually usually refers to is a machine which can travel across parallel universes. Otherwise we reach a logic paradox.
Technically to make things more understandable, you could say they have travelled in time as they started off at 40k and ended up at 30k (not the same 30k - important distinction), but if it is a parallel universe (the only possible way to do it whilst changing the timeline) this is not actually the case (as timetravel would have required them to travel to their 30k).
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I think we are probably in agreement about everything barring our definitions of timetravel.
But I thought that it was understood that they didn't show up at the same 30k. The only way for it to be the same 30k...it would have to be the loop thing. Example....orginal 30k timeline. Nobody really know in40k history when Horus turned (as in the date and time) they just know when he started the heresy. Horus already about to turn and still thinking about it. Then SW showup and talked to him in private...they told him what would happen...Horus thought that with the future on his side...he can win the heresy now. He will kill the emperor fast and show no mercy...and Horus will live and not die....so he killed all the SW and the heresy started as is....this.
That was a single timeline theory....nothing you do will change anything...it is impossible to change timeline. Everything is and was...just the players don't know the full details.
I will say this we do agree on the concept...just the minor definition.
I do not think that there is a difination for this because it is all sci fi theories...and it really depends on the fiction narrative of which style of theory they want. I would recommend a time travel movie...Primer, very good film....but I think you have seen it.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Poly Ranger wrote:But if the Heresy didn't happen then the SW don't go back to stop it, thus they do not stop it, thus it happens. A paradox.
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As they are now no longer there to stop it, hence it still needs to be stopped, because they failed to stop it themselves as their actions caused them to cease to exist.
In otherwords, by stopping it, they cause themselves to fail to stop it. Giving the paradox.
The Wolves would be incapable of changing Horus's mind.
Thats the idea that if time travel is possible you cannot change the past. Either you would fail OR you would cause the event you are trying to change. The wolves would go back, try to stop Horus, but would either fail or cause him to fall to Chaos in the first place.
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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
My simple answer to this is that:
Time travel (whilst it exists, as evidenced by in-universe sources) cannot be used or harnessed in any way, shape or form. People are not warned about this or given any kind of mission to perform if they ever did time travel as a result of Warp dickery, because it is so absurdly uncommon, or that it could be viewed as HERESY by the Ordo Chronos. Or, any time travel that COULD occur, has occurred and this is how the timeline has played out. Basically, time travel should never be used in any work of 40k fanfiction to explain anything. ANYTHING!
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Post by: david choe
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:My simple answer to this is that:
Time travel (whilst it exists, as evidenced by in-universe sources) cannot be used or harnessed in any way, shape or form. People are not warned about this or given any kind of mission to perform if they ever did time travel as a result of Warp dickery, because it is so absurdly uncommon, or that it could be viewed as HERESY by the Ordo Chronos. Or, any time travel that COULD occur, has occurred and this is how the timeline has played out. Basically, time travel should never be used in any work of 40k fanfiction to explain anything. ANYTHING!
Tell that to the veteran of chaos space marines from heresy.
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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
 david choe wrote: Sgt_Smudge wrote:My simple answer to this is that: Time travel (whilst it exists, as evidenced by in-universe sources) cannot be used or harnessed in any way, shape or form. People are not warned about this or given any kind of mission to perform if they ever did time travel as a result of Warp dickery, because it is so absurdly uncommon, or that it could be viewed as HERESY by the Ordo Chronos. Or, any time travel that COULD occur, has occurred and this is how the timeline has played out. Basically, time travel should never be used in any work of 40k fanfiction to explain anything. ANYTHING!
Tell that to the veteran of chaos space marines from heresy.
I amend my point to BACKWARDS time travel, one that could affect the past. Better?
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Post by: david choe
Sgt_Smudge wrote: david choe wrote: Sgt_Smudge wrote:My simple answer to this is that:
Time travel (whilst it exists, as evidenced by in-universe sources) cannot be used or harnessed in any way, shape or form. People are not warned about this or given any kind of mission to perform if they ever did time travel as a result of Warp dickery, because it is so absurdly uncommon, or that it could be viewed as HERESY by the Ordo Chronos. Or, any time travel that COULD occur, has occurred and this is how the timeline has played out. Basically, time travel should never be used in any work of 40k fanfiction to explain anything. ANYTHING!
Tell that to the veteran of chaos space marines from heresy.
I amend my point to BACKWARDS time travel, one that could affect the past. Better?
1 - I mentioned from the very beginning... that there should be a protocol for warp traveling... such as if you happens to go back in time ... use your knowledge to help the present to avoid the "bad" future. I don't think nobody here is talking about on purpose traveling back after it was established that there is no time machine.
2 - Ordo Chronos is gone... the ordo was so small in the first place that most don't even know jack about them. Because nobody wants them around. If they are useful and "good" for the Imperial... the High Lords would create a new one. The reason why nobody what them.. think about it...they would have all the power! Who the heck would know if the Ordo Chronos is making gak up or they are telling the truth about this past or that future. They could be abusing the power. They are gone.. missing ... say to have travel in time to fix or something. I just think that one of the High Lords terminate them all because they were a threat to their interest.
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Post by: jhe90
Any time machine would use the warp most like.
So minus powerful warding, or Geller protection your basically warp chow in a fancy machine.
And warp is massively unpredictable your as likely to time travel as end up anywhere, get ripped to bits, somehow odds on living are not great.
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Post by: david choe
 jhe90 wrote:Any time machine would use the warp most like.
So minus powerful warding, or Geller protection your basically warp chow in a fancy machine.
And warp is massively unpredictable your as likely to time travel as end up anywhere, get ripped to bits, somehow odds on living are not great.
Yeah... I know... the topic is about accident time travel. I am telling my idea is that Imperial should have a protocol set in place like a book ... if you travel to the past... do the following to help us change the present... Like if you get back to 30K STOP THE HERESY! Save the Emperor. etc....
It is rare, but common enough that it happens.. so all it takes is one lucky accident to change everything. A protocol wouldn't hurt anybody.
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Post by: Grey Templar
david choe wrote: jhe90 wrote:Any time machine would use the warp most like.
So minus powerful warding, or Geller protection your basically warp chow in a fancy machine.
And warp is massively unpredictable your as likely to time travel as end up anywhere, get ripped to bits, somehow odds on living are not great.
Yeah... I know... the topic is about accident time travel. I am telling my idea is that Imperial should have a protocol set in place like a book ... if you travel to the past... do the following to help us change the present... Like if you get back to 30K STOP THE HERESY! Save the Emperor. etc....
It is rare, but common enough that it happens.. so all it takes is one lucky accident to change everything. A protocol wouldn't hurt anybody.
Nope. Most imperial citizens know little to nothing about the Heresy other than something really bad happened. They're not told the truth.
And Time Travel is so ridiculously uncommon that the vast majority of people probably don't even know or care that its possible. besides, if the present is how it currently is then the past is set in stone. because if anyone did go back in time to change the future then the present wouldn't be the cluster feth it currently is.
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Post by: david choe
Grey Templar wrote: david choe wrote: jhe90 wrote:Any time machine would use the warp most like.
So minus powerful warding, or Geller protection your basically warp chow in a fancy machine.
And warp is massively unpredictable your as likely to time travel as end up anywhere, get ripped to bits, somehow odds on living are not great.
Yeah... I know... the topic is about accident time travel. I am telling my idea is that Imperial should have a protocol set in place like a book ... if you travel to the past... do the following to help us change the present... Like if you get back to 30K STOP THE HERESY! Save the Emperor. etc....
It is rare, but common enough that it happens.. so all it takes is one lucky accident to change everything. A protocol wouldn't hurt anybody.
Nope. Most imperial citizens know little to nothing about the Heresy other than something really bad happened. They're not told the truth.
And Time Travel is so ridiculously uncommon that the vast majority of people probably don't even know or care that its possible. besides, if the present is how it currently is then the past is set in stone. because if anyone did go back in time to change the future then the present wouldn't be the cluster feth it currently is.
I told you a protocol book. Meaning that when this gak happens... they can get the book out and read it what to do. Like a safety book in every ship. Also... who travels a lot and gone missing a lot... Space marines and IG ships.... lost in the warp... these are guys who can change the future.
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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
david choe wrote: Grey Templar wrote: david choe wrote: jhe90 wrote:Any time machine would use the warp most like.
So minus powerful warding, or Geller protection your basically warp chow in a fancy machine.
And warp is massively unpredictable your as likely to time travel as end up anywhere, get ripped to bits, somehow odds on living are not great.
Yeah... I know... the topic is about accident time travel. I am telling my idea is that Imperial should have a protocol set in place like a book ... if you travel to the past... do the following to help us change the present... Like if you get back to 30K STOP THE HERESY! Save the Emperor. etc....
It is rare, but common enough that it happens.. so all it takes is one lucky accident to change everything. A protocol wouldn't hurt anybody.
Nope. Most imperial citizens know little to nothing about the Heresy other than something really bad happened. They're not told the truth.
And Time Travel is so ridiculously uncommon that the vast majority of people probably don't even know or care that its possible. besides, if the present is how it currently is then the past is set in stone. because if anyone did go back in time to change the future then the present wouldn't be the cluster feth it currently is.
I told you a protocol book. Meaning that when this gak happens... they can get the book out and read it what to do. Like a safety book in every ship. Also... who travels a lot and gone missing a lot... Space marines and IG ships.... lost in the warp... these are guys who can change the future.
Yes, the problem is that it occurs so rarely. As in, there is more chance that GW will realise how bad their business plan is. Besides, most people in the IG ships probably don't even understand the full extent of the Warp: why would they need to know about time travel? This is a universe where ignorance is bliss, where common sense and reason are forgotten. Plus, time travel rules dictate that if they did change something, they would be unable (or infinitely unlikely) to even go back in time in the first place to change the future, as illustrated previously.
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Post by: david choe
Sgt_Smudge wrote: david choe wrote: Grey Templar wrote: david choe wrote: jhe90 wrote:Any time machine would use the warp most like.
So minus powerful warding, or Geller protection your basically warp chow in a fancy machine.
And warp is massively unpredictable your as likely to time travel as end up anywhere, get ripped to bits, somehow odds on living are not great.
Yeah... I know... the topic is about accident time travel. I am telling my idea is that Imperial should have a protocol set in place like a book ... if you travel to the past... do the following to help us change the present... Like if you get back to 30K STOP THE HERESY! Save the Emperor. etc....
It is rare, but common enough that it happens.. so all it takes is one lucky accident to change everything. A protocol wouldn't hurt anybody.
Nope. Most imperial citizens know little to nothing about the Heresy other than something really bad happened. They're not told the truth.
And Time Travel is so ridiculously uncommon that the vast majority of people probably don't even know or care that its possible. besides, if the present is how it currently is then the past is set in stone. because if anyone did go back in time to change the future then the present wouldn't be the cluster feth it currently is.
I told you a protocol book. Meaning that when this gak happens... they can get the book out and read it what to do. Like a safety book in every ship. Also... who travels a lot and gone missing a lot... Space marines and IG ships.... lost in the warp... these are guys who can change the future.
Yes, the problem is that it occurs so rarely. As in, there is more chance that GW will realise how bad their business plan is. Besides, most people in the IG ships probably don't even understand the full extent of the Warp: why would they need to know about time travel? This is a universe where ignorance is bliss, where common sense and reason are forgotten. Plus, time travel rules dictate that if they did change something, they would be unable (or infinitely unlikely) to even go back in time in the first place to change the future, as illustrated previously.
Didn't you mentioned or somebody mentioned that there was a Ordo Chronos..... if the damn think is as rare as unicorn ... what is the point of a Inquisition Ordo Chronos? A million planets and all the travel in betweens... there are lots of lost ships in the warp and lots of time traveling going on my friend  All it takes is one lucky accident and boom goes the dynamite Emperor is alive again.
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Post by: Shidank
The point would be that all you have to do is prove it happened once and ungodly resources would be dedicated to research and control.
An Ordos is actually underselling the hell out of it.
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Post by: david choe
Shidank wrote:The point would be that all you have to do is prove it happened once and ungodly resources would be dedicated to research and control.
An Ordos is actually underselling the hell out of it.
Why don't you guys go argue it out.
I got you telling me that Time travel can happen and Ordos is important.. and the other guy saying it is so rare that it is pointless to even have a protocol for time traveling.
I'm right in the middle man.... Time travel happens and Ordos don't want you to screw with it. I disagree with this Ordo and we should harness this power and tries to change things.
So I will dismiss claims that it happens so rare ... yes it is so rare just like plane crash on earth.. but there are so many planes flying that a few crashes per year is common... this is how I view time travel... a Million planets man... you know every freaking year... ships get lost and some end up travel in time. It is not an IF question, it is a When it will happen... If that craps happens to me and I'm a Space Marines.... I will open that box up "INCASE YOU GET LOST IN TIME" and read the hell out of it.
63000
Post by: Peregrine
david choe wrote:I will open that box up "INCASE YOU GET LOST IN TIME" and read the hell out of it.
And then someone else will read it without getting lost in time, access forbidden information, and now you've got another chaos problem to deal with.
92786
Post by: david choe
 Peregrine wrote: david choe wrote:I will open that box up "INCASE YOU GET LOST IN TIME" and read the hell out of it.
And then someone else will read it without getting lost in time, access forbidden information, and now you've got another chaos problem to deal with.
Do you open the door on airplane? Same thing. We think that some idiot would open the plane door... but you know that is a no no... so nobody would.
The Box is also locked in the Pilot room or something with warning. I mean... I would be tempted to open... but with warning of execution if open and so on... I think people in the Imperial will have other things to deal with.
74524
Post by: Zaki66
 j31c3n wrote:I thought there was some piece of fluff recently that implied the Necrons did hold time-travel tech?
Yes. Orikan the Diviner has a way to time travel and semi-frequently uses it to make his "predictions" come true. I think its implied that he is the only who can fully time travel but given the advances in Necron tech and their tendencies to completely troll other factions with it, I wouldn't be surprised if they have things like time machines.
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Post by: Grimskul
david choe wrote: Peregrine wrote: david choe wrote:I will open that box up "INCASE YOU GET LOST IN TIME" and read the hell out of it.
And then someone else will read it without getting lost in time, access forbidden information, and now you've got another chaos problem to deal with.
Do you open the door on airplane? Same thing. We think that some idiot would open the plane door... but you know that is a no no... so nobody would.
The Box is also locked in the Pilot room or something with warning. I mean... I would be tempted to open... but with warning of execution if open and so on... I think people in the Imperial will have other things to deal with.
Given that people break the law all the time in our world, isn't it foolish to presume that no one would look inside? It doesn't even need to be an Imperial pilot or authority who reads it either, it could be stolen or lost in transit when it was being made by scribes and misplaced amongst other general texts (not surprising with the sprawling bureaucracy that is the Administratum) which could lead to inadvertent dissemination of this forbidden knowledge.
92786
Post by: david choe
 Grimskul wrote: david choe wrote: Peregrine wrote: david choe wrote:I will open that box up "INCASE YOU GET LOST IN TIME" and read the hell out of it.
And then someone else will read it without getting lost in time, access forbidden information, and now you've got another chaos problem to deal with.
Do you open the door on airplane? Same thing. We think that some idiot would open the plane door... but you know that is a no no... so nobody would.
The Box is also locked in the Pilot room or something with warning. I mean... I would be tempted to open... but with warning of execution if open and so on... I think people in the Imperial will have other things to deal with.
Given that people break the law all the time in our world, isn't it foolish to presume that no one would look inside? It doesn't even need to be an Imperial pilot or authority who reads it either, it could be stolen or lost in transit when it was being made by scribes and misplaced amongst other general texts (not surprising with the sprawling bureaucracy that is the Administratum) which could lead to inadvertent dissemination of this forbidden knowledge.
What knowledge is so important that nobody should read it? I mean... I was thinking something more like a quick history time line... like the date of Horus death, Emperor died, Terror invasion, etc.... Most of this stuff should be in the history books. The point of this protocol is to give date location and time of important events that has happened and good Imperial subjects should tries to prevent from happening or make sure it does ... depends on the context.
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Post by: dusara217
Poly Ranger wrote:It is impossible.
Let us take the Space Wolf Battlecruiser mentioned earlier. Say events even pan out in the best possible way.
-Goes back in time to before Horus was corrupted.
-Warns Horus about Chaos and what will happen.
-Horus listens and is prevented from turning to chaos.
-Horus Heresy fails to happen.
-Space Wolves (who came back in times) timeline ceases to exist.
-Space Wolves in question cease to exist.
-Space Wolves unable to go back in time to warn Horus as they do no exist.
-Horus does not get the warning.
-It all plays out like it did.
Due to the butterfly effect, it is impossible to alter time without altering yourself/your decisions that influenced you to go back in time in the first place, thus preventing you going back in time to change that specific thing in the first place (you wouldn't still go back in time to stop something which never actually happened, thus by not going back to stop it, it actually happens).
It's why the movie Looper does not work when you think about it for more than a split second.
It seems to me that the Space Wolves would have created an alternate timeline, where Horus didn't rebel, while their timeline continued to exist, where Horus did rebel.
73007
Post by: Grimskul
david choe wrote: Grimskul wrote: david choe wrote: Peregrine wrote: david choe wrote:I will open that box up "INCASE YOU GET LOST IN TIME" and read the hell out of it.
And then someone else will read it without getting lost in time, access forbidden information, and now you've got another chaos problem to deal with.
Do you open the door on airplane? Same thing. We think that some idiot would open the plane door... but you know that is a no no... so nobody would.
The Box is also locked in the Pilot room or something with warning. I mean... I would be tempted to open... but with warning of execution if open and so on... I think people in the Imperial will have other things to deal with.
Given that people break the law all the time in our world, isn't it foolish to presume that no one would look inside? It doesn't even need to be an Imperial pilot or authority who reads it either, it could be stolen or lost in transit when it was being made by scribes and misplaced amongst other general texts (not surprising with the sprawling bureaucracy that is the Administratum) which could lead to inadvertent dissemination of this forbidden knowledge.
What knowledge is so important that nobody should read it? I mean... I was thinking something more like a quick history time line... like the date of Horus death, Emperor died, Terror invasion, etc.... Most of this stuff should be in the history books. The point of this protocol is to give date location and time of important events that has happened and good Imperial subjects should tries to prevent from happening or make sure it does ... depends on the context.
We've already discussed why the details of the Horus Heresy were never revealed, never mind how much have been reduced to myths or the actual information lost after 10,000 years and why its not public knowledge. Also you haven't actually provided a rebuttal to my proposal. Simply saying that people should know what happened back then (without any argument besides possibly helping in the very rare chance they go back all the way to before the Heresy) doesn't change the fact that it can equally or be more likely used for worse things. What if a heretic/ CSM who raided an Imperial ship got access to this knowledge? Then if they went back and they would deliberately try to ensure that things went well for the Traitors instead? You can't only have it one way, and that's why its simply better not to allow the possibility of the enemy using it, even if there's a miniscule chance that it may prove beneficial for the Imperium. The potential for bad things to occur outweighs the good.
93103
Post by: Shidank
david choe wrote: Shidank wrote:The point would be that all you have to do is prove it happened once and ungodly resources would be dedicated to research and control.
An Ordos is actually underselling the hell out of it.
Why don't you guys go argue it out.
I got you telling me that Time travel can happen and Ordos is important.. and the other guy saying it is so rare that it is pointless to even have a protocol for time traveling.
I'm right in the middle man.... Time travel happens and Ordos don't want you to screw with it. I disagree with this Ordo and we should harness this power and tries to change things.
So I will dismiss claims that it happens so rare ... yes it is so rare just like plane crash on earth.. but there are so many planes flying that a few crashes per year is common... this is how I view time travel... a Million planets man... you know every freaking year... ships get lost and some end up travel in time. It is not an IF question, it is a When it will happen... If that craps happens to me and I'm a Space Marines.... I will open that box up "INCASE YOU GET LOST IN TIME" and read the hell out of it.
In all fairness, you're not looking at this in a realistic light. In all honesty, if there is an Ordos, they ARE trying to control it. The sheer volume of data to be sifted through to find individual cases is incomprehensible given the scope of the Imperium.
Information on such rare phenomena would be very difficult to coordinate.
39550
Post by: Psienesis
david choe wrote: Peregrine wrote: david choe wrote:I will open that box up "INCASE YOU GET LOST IN TIME" and read the hell out of it.
And then someone else will read it without getting lost in time, access forbidden information, and now you've got another chaos problem to deal with.
Do you open the door on airplane? Same thing. We think that some idiot would open the plane door... but you know that is a no no... so nobody would.
The Box is also locked in the Pilot room or something with warning. I mean... I would be tempted to open... but with warning of execution if open and so on... I think people in the Imperial will have other things to deal with.
The entire reason the Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Malleus exist is because people are dumb enough to open the door.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Thats why all those warning labels and signs you encounter in real life exist. Because somewhere, somehow, someone was stupid enough to do the thing its telling you not to do.
92786
Post by: david choe
Grimskul wrote: david choe wrote: Grimskul wrote: david choe wrote: Peregrine wrote: david choe wrote:I will open that box up "INCASE YOU GET LOST IN TIME" and read the hell out of it.
And then someone else will read it without getting lost in time, access forbidden information, and now you've got another chaos problem to deal with.
Do you open the door on airplane? Same thing. We think that some idiot would open the plane door... but you know that is a no no... so nobody would.
The Box is also locked in the Pilot room or something with warning. I mean... I would be tempted to open... but with warning of execution if open and so on... I think people in the Imperial will have other things to deal with.
Given that people break the law all the time in our world, isn't it foolish to presume that no one would look inside? It doesn't even need to be an Imperial pilot or authority who reads it either, it could be stolen or lost in transit when it was being made by scribes and misplaced amongst other general texts (not surprising with the sprawling bureaucracy that is the Administratum) which could lead to inadvertent dissemination of this forbidden knowledge.
What knowledge is so important that nobody should read it? I mean... I was thinking something more like a quick history time line... like the date of Horus death, Emperor died, Terror invasion, etc.... Most of this stuff should be in the history books. The point of this protocol is to give date location and time of important events that has happened and good Imperial subjects should tries to prevent from happening or make sure it does ... depends on the context.
We've already discussed why the details of the Horus Heresy were never revealed, never mind how much have been reduced to myths or the actual information lost after 10,000 years and why its not public knowledge. Also you haven't actually provided a rebuttal to my proposal. Simply saying that people should know what happened back then (without any argument besides possibly helping in the very rare chance they go back all the way to before the Heresy) doesn't change the fact that it can equally or be more likely used for worse things. What if a heretic/ CSM who raided an Imperial ship got access to this knowledge? Then if they went back and they would deliberately try to ensure that things went well for the Traitors instead? You can't only have it one way, and that's why its simply better not to allow the possibility of the enemy using it, even if there's a miniscule chance that it may prove beneficial for the Imperium. The potential for bad things to occur outweighs the good.
Ok, I guess I am a bit confuse here. I did not know the imperial do not have history book or they lie about the history. Is that what you are saying?
While i wait for your answer....
Here is my out line of the protocol time travel package.
Each box will contain history of imperial in general and also local package history of the sector they are traveling...so no....not all one million planets of history. So if you are in sector a and going to sector y, you will have 3 boxes. General, a, and y.
I don't see why history is so damn secret ....I could be wrong. Like in real life...America history book is public knowledge....our enemy can read it and it won't matter.
This is the future...it could be books format and cd type video also. Each package should not be larger than a suitcase.
What it is is really a history lesson and it is not public knowledge?
93103
Post by: Shidank
Let's be real. This is Warhammer 40k.
If you open the box, it WILL contain the Life-Eater virus.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Its because Chaos is kept secret. Chaos is so evil and perverting that even knowing it exists can cause you to fall. What you don't know about really can't hurt you, not as much as if you knew about it anyway.
The Imperium can't tell the truth about its history to its subjects, or at least not the whole truth. Especially about the Heresy.
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Post by: Psienesis
The spread of information is tightly controlled in the Imperium. The Heresy itself is so far in the past of the current era of the Imperium that it has taken on the status of myths.
To put it in perspective, we, the people of the early 21st century (M3), know next to nothing about the particulars of events that happened in 8000 BC. We have a few fragmented bits of pottery, some ruins, and best-guesses at translations of recovered records. We can take some decent guesses at the names of kings and some ancient kingdoms in certain areas of the world, but, by and large, we know next to nothing of the world in 8000 to 7000 BC.
That was 10,000 years ago, the same amount of time between the Heresy and M41.
Earth, however, IRL, did not suffer galaxy-wide, titanic war that saw billions slain, entire worlds burned to cinders, the total annihilation of all the repositories of human knowledge, coupled with an invasion by extra-dimensional beings made of Murder and Rape.
The Heresy, to the average citizen of the modern Imperium, is a tale similar to one that you might hear in Sunday school IRL. It's the tale of a God who is betrayed by some of his sons, and goes to war with them with his favored loyal sons. The fight between the Emperor and Horus has taken on the vibe and theme of the Fall of Lucifer, as told in the Bible.
There's a handful of people in the Imperium who might remember some of the details of the actual events, people like Bjorn the Fell-Handed, but whether their memories are intact over such a long time, or whether they ever even knew anything really worth saving is a matter of question. Bjorn was a young guy at the time, and just a cup-bearer for Russ. He can tell stories of what the Space Wolves did during that time, but was not, himself, party to most of the major events involving the Emperor. He's also over 10,000 years old and interred in a dreadnought, so his mind ain't what it used to be.
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Post by: david choe
Psienesis wrote:The spread of information is tightly controlled in the Imperium. The Heresy itself is so far in the past of the current era of the Imperium that it has taken on the status of myths.
To put it in perspective, we, the people of the early 21st century (M3), know next to nothing about the particulars of events that happened in 8000 BC. We have a few fragmented bits of pottery, some ruins, and best-guesses at translations of recovered records. We can take some decent guesses at the names of kings and some ancient kingdoms in certain areas of the world, but, by and large, we know next to nothing of the world in 8000 to 7000 BC.
That was 10,000 years ago, the same amount of time between the Heresy and M41.
Earth, however, IRL, did not suffer galaxy-wide, titanic war that saw billions slain, entire worlds burned to cinders, the total annihilation of all the repositories of human knowledge, coupled with an invasion by extra-dimensional beings made of Murder and Rape.
The Heresy, to the average citizen of the modern Imperium, is a tale similar to one that you might hear in Sunday school IRL. It's the tale of a God who is betrayed by some of his sons, and goes to war with them with his favored loyal sons. The fight between the Emperor and Horus has taken on the vibe and theme of the Fall of Lucifer, as told in the Bible.
There's a handful of people in the Imperium who might remember some of the details of the actual events, people like Bjorn the Fell-Handed, but whether their memories are intact over such a long time, or whether they ever even knew anything really worth saving is a matter of question. Bjorn was a young guy at the time, and just a cup-bearer for Russ. He can tell stories of what the Space Wolves did during that time, but was not, himself, party to most of the major events involving the Emperor. He's also over 10,000 years old and interred in a dreadnought, so his mind ain't what it used to be.
Oh that...yeah I know about the chaos secret ...
But like you said...they know Horus was a traitor and who the bad guys were...will the general back age will have that. No chaos need mentioning. So it is like a bible....i don't remember much of the bible...but if I go back to bible days and know what period I am...and there are guide package...I might be able to save jesus or help Noah buld the boat.
So if one pop in30k...the history lesson is about the heresy...not a big deal. Warn of the traitor Horus. Give the package to the imperial with the future prediction in it for the next 10,000 years.
And if you said our enemies can get it too...what makes you think chaos (the gods of time traveling themself) have not give their subjects the history books that will tell them of the future?
If anything ...the package is the imperial equalization to this issue...
Because this protocol is set in place...Imperial might even get sombody from 43k coming to 40k and give them the package so they know what the history of the next 2000 will be. This right here is a great story or battle for the suitcase lol.
39550
Post by: Psienesis
People tried to warn the Emperor about Horus. He ignored them.
73675
Post by: TiamatRoar
A few things:
The Ordos Chronos all dissappeared at some point down the line. EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL ONE OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME, IIRC (given that they were all individuals operating at different places on different matters of time travel, that's no mean feat. It's possible they accidentally retconned themselves out of existance for something like THAT to happen). Oops.
Also, the Emperor already knew the Heresy would happen somewhat early on and that he would die (evidence is he possibly knew even before Magnus gave him that warning). In order to change the past by warning him, you'd probably have to do so at some point before Magnus broke the webway. If Magnus couldn't convince him, what evidence could you (as a hypothetical extremely knowledgeable inquisitor or scholar or whatever) possibly have at that point that could convince him? Hell, what you know of the Heresy is likely clouded by ten thousand years of myths and fabrications and decay, so what you know of the heresy and your ideas for preventing it might be completely out of touch with what actually happened.
Heck, it's possible Emps WANTED the heresy to happen. Good luck changing the past if that's the case.
92786
Post by: david choe
Not from the future....E can read their minds and know that this is the truth. Or ignore and keep the package and look at other events like necron awaken or the nids is coming in 10,000 years...there are lots and lots of useful information.
Just imagen what george Washington can do or for the U.S. govt. of 1700s can do if they have a high school history book from 2015..Hitler, 911, JFK, MLK, US civil war, etc...
73675
Post by: TiamatRoar
david choe wrote:
Not from the future....E can read their minds and know that this is the truth
Can he? You'd think he would have read Horus's or Magnus' minds in that case. The latter wasn't exactly shielding himself.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
david choe wrote:
Not from the future....E can read their minds and know that this is the truth. Or ignore and keep the package and look at other events like necron awaken or the nids is coming in 10,000 years...there are lots and lots of useful information.
Just imagen what george Washington can do or for the U.S. govt. of 1700s can do if they have a high school history book from 2015..Hitler, 911, JFK, MLK, US civil war, etc...
He could read the minds of people who were trying to warn him back then. If he didn't listen to them why would he listen to somebody from the future?
92786
Post by: david choe
TiamatRoar wrote:A few things:
The Ordos Chronos all dissappeared at some point down the line. EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL ONE OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME, IIRC (given that they were all individuals operating at different places on different matters of time travel, that's no mean feat. It's possible they accidentally retconned themselves out of existance for something like THAT to happen). Oops.
Also, the Emperor already knew the Heresy would happen somewhat early on and that he would die (evidence is he possibly knew even before Magnus gave him that warning). In order to change the past by warning him, you'd probably have to do so at some point before Magnus broke the webway. If Magnus couldn't convince him, what evidence could you (as a hypothetical extremely knowledgeable inquisitor or scholar or whatever) possibly have at that point that could convince him? Hell, what you know of the Heresy is likely clouded by ten thousand years of myths and fabrications and decay, so what you know of the heresy and your ideas for preventing it might be completely out of touch with what actually happened.
Heck, it's possible Emps WANTED the heresy to happen. Good luck changing the past if that's the case.
Yeah, that is funny about the Ordos ....I think the high lords killed them off because they had too much power.
39550
Post by: Psienesis
There's some differing versions of that (helped not in the least by the writing of the HH novels).
On the one hand, we have a version that states the Emperor believed that Horus was redeemable up to the point where Horus kills Ollanius Pius (who was, in this version of the tale, just a regular Guardsman, not a Perpetual), and it is witnessing this death that makes the Emperor realize that Horus is too far gone.
On another hand, we have a version that states the Emperor had, up to this point, been directing the Crusade based on his divinatory and prophetic powers, powers which all of a sudden stopped working. So he suddenly had no idea what was going on. This kind of puts the rest of the Loyalist forces in disarray, now having to rely on the Primarchs in the field, rather than orders from Terra. Fortunately, most of the Loyalist Primarchs are suitably competent. However, denied his insights, the Emperor has no fething clue what's going on with Horus, up until the point that Horus' is above Terra and blasting the hell out of the planet. The shields drop, the Emp sees a chance, and goes for it. The rest, as they say, is history.
And we have yet another version that states that everything about the Heresy happened exactly as the Emperor planned it, because it resulted in his ascension to the Golden Throne, which allowed him to fully manifest in the Warp as a sort of God of Order, sustained by the veneration of uncounted trillions of humans and the daily sacrifice of psykers.
92786
Post by: david choe
Grey Templar wrote: david choe wrote:
Not from the future....E can read their minds and know that this is the truth. Or ignore and keep the package and look at other events like necron awaken or the nids is coming in 10,000 years...there are lots and lots of useful information.
Just imagen what george Washington can do or for the U.S. govt. of 1700s can do if they have a high school history book from 2015..Hitler, 911, JFK, MLK, US civil war, etc...
He could read the minds of people who were trying to warn him back then. If he didn't listen to them why would he listen to somebody from the future?
Don't focus so much on E and the heresy...focus on my package....if the imperial were not sure if this is the truth...after a few event went just like the prediction...you don't think they will start using the package?
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
david choe wrote: Grey Templar wrote: david choe wrote:
Not from the future....E can read their minds and know that this is the truth. Or ignore and keep the package and look at other events like necron awaken or the nids is coming in 10,000 years...there are lots and lots of useful information.
Just imagen what george Washington can do or for the U.S. govt. of 1700s can do if they have a high school history book from 2015..Hitler, 911, JFK, MLK, US civil war, etc...
He could read the minds of people who were trying to warn him back then. If he didn't listen to them why would he listen to somebody from the future?
Don't focus so much on E and the heresy...focus on my package....if the imperial were not sure if this is the truth...after a few event went just like the prediction...you don't think they will start using the package?
Your package is a terrible idea. More people will open it and abuse the knowledge than any good which might occur as a result of it.
92786
Post by: david choe
Grey Templar wrote: david choe wrote: Grey Templar wrote: david choe wrote:
Not from the future....E can read their minds and know that this is the truth. Or ignore and keep the package and look at other events like necron awaken or the nids is coming in 10,000 years...there are lots and lots of useful information.
Just imagen what george Washington can do or for the U.S. govt. of 1700s can do if they have a high school history book from 2015..Hitler, 911, JFK, MLK, US civil war, etc...
He could read the minds of people who were trying to warn him back then. If he didn't listen to them why would he listen to somebody from the future?
Don't focus so much on E and the heresy...focus on my package....if the imperial were not sure if this is the truth...after a few event went just like the prediction...you don't think they will start using the package?
Your package is a terrible idea. More people will open it and abuse the knowledge than any good which might occur as a result of it.
 What people is opening it? It is a history lesson. If you are at the present of now40k it is useless to you. Lol think about it.
If you go back to 35k and give the package to Imperial...then, they will know the future of the next 5000 years...like ork invasion, nids coming, etc...
93103
Post by: Shidank
david choe wrote:
What people is opening it? It is a history lesson. If you are at the present of now40k it is useless to you. Lol think about it.
If you go back to 35k and give the package to Imperial...then, they will know the future of the next 5000 years...like ork invasion, nids coming, etc...
In all honesty, these people would be killed. Anyone they spoke with would be killed. Their ships would be parked in the center of the nearest sun and then that sun would be killed.
63000
Post by: Peregrine
david choe wrote:Just imagen what george Washington can do or for the U.S. govt. of 1700s can do if they have a high school history book from 2015..Hitler, 911, JFK, MLK, US civil war, etc...
Very little actually, because once you start making changes in history the later events no longer have the exact circumstances that produced them. You won't get the JFK assassination because the grandfather of the guy who shot him married someone else and the assassin was never born. You won't get 9/11 because a gun manufacturer that didn't exist in the original timeline made big campaign donations and got a law requiring all pilots to carry their brand of weapon, so instead the terrorists decided to blow up the super bowl with a truck bomb. Etc. The whole "go back in time with information" thing only helps you in two ways:
1) For a short time you can gain an advantage if you have detailed enough information that allows you to respond to near-future events that have already been set in motion. For example, if you show up on 9/10/2001 with a full description of the 9/11 plot you can have all of the hijackers arrested and prevent the attacks. This only lasts until the timeline diverges and your history book is no longer accurate.
2) You can get science and engineering knowledge that you don't already have, without all of the work of obtaining it. You'll still have to do all of the work for things like building a factory to build the machines to go into your computer chip factory, but technology is going to progress a lot faster until all of your science textbook's information has been used.
That second one is probably the more important one. Getting an advantage in one battle because you know the enemy plan is a lot less useful than getting antibiotics and modern sanitation to cut the death rate for wounded soldiers. But the Imperium doesn't have this option, since 40k technology is mostly just 30k technology with more broken parts and purity seals everywhere.
david choe wrote:I don't see why history is so damn secret ....I could be wrong. Like in real life...America history book is public knowledge....our enemy can read it and it won't matter.
Because real life doesn't have demons waiting just outside of reality, eager for someone to open the door and let them in. The Imperium has to keep secrets because otherwise one of two things happens: either someone with more ambition than sense decides to "fix" everything and starts a chaos problem, or someone who wants to help chaos suddenly has more tools to do so and starts a chaos problem.
92786
Post by: david choe
david choe wrote: Grey Templar wrote: david choe wrote: Grey Templar wrote: david choe wrote:
Not from the future....E can read their minds and know that this is the truth. Or ignore and keep the package and look at other events like necron awaken or the nids is coming in 10,000 years...there are lots and lots of useful information.
Just imagen what george Washington can do or for the U.S. govt. of 1700s can do if they have a high school history book from 2015..Hitler, 911, JFK, MLK, US civil war, etc...
He could read the minds of people who were trying to warn him back then. If he didn't listen to them why would he listen to somebody from the future?
Don't focus so much on E and the heresy...focus on my package....if the imperial were not sure if this is the truth...after a few event went just like the prediction...you don't think they will start using the package?
Your package is a terrible idea. More people will open it and abuse the knowledge than any good which might occur as a result of it.
What people is opening it? It is a history lesson. If you are at the present of now40k it is useless to you. Lol think about it.
If you go back to 35k and give the package to Imperial...then, they will know the future of the next 5000 years...like ork invasion, nids coming, etc...
LOL...you guys are silly man...maybe just carry a history book in every ship and if that ship goes back in time...the protocol is to give the history book to the Imperial....there...simple. Lol. Automatically Appended Next Post: Peregrine wrote: david choe wrote:Just imagen what george Washington can do or for the U.S. govt. of 1700s can do if they have a high school history book from 2015..Hitler, 911, JFK, MLK, US civil war, etc...
Very little actually, because once you start making changes in history the later events no longer have the exact circumstances that produced them. You won't get the JFK assassination because the grandfather of the guy who shot him married someone else and the assassin was never born. You won't get 9/11 because a gun manufacturer that didn't exist in the original timeline made big campaign donations and got a law requiring all pilots to carry their brand of weapon, so instead the terrorists decided to blow up the super bowl with a truck bomb. Etc. The whole "go back in time with information" thing only helps you in two ways:
1) For a short time you can gain an advantage if you have detailed enough information that allows you to respond to near-future events that have already been set in motion. For example, if you show up on 9/10/2001 with a full description of the 9/11 plot you can have all of the hijackers arrested and prevent the attacks. This only lasts until the timeline diverges and your history book is no longer accurate.
2) You can get science and engineering knowledge that you don't already have, without all of the work of obtaining it. You'll still have to do all of the work for things like building a factory to build the machines to go into your computer chip factory, but technology is going to progress a lot faster until all of your science textbook's information has been used.
That second one is probably the more important one. Getting an advantage in one battle because you know the enemy plan is a lot less useful than getting antibiotics and modern sanitation to cut the death rate for wounded soldiers. But the Imperium doesn't have this option, since 40k technology is mostly just 30k technology with more broken parts and purity seals everywhere.
david choe wrote:I don't see why history is so damn secret ....I could be wrong. Like in real life...America history book is public knowledge....our enemy can read it and it won't matter.
Because real life doesn't have demons waiting just outside of reality, eager for someone to open the door and let them in. The Imperium has to keep secrets because otherwise one of two things happens: either someone with more ambition than sense decides to "fix" everything and starts a chaos problem, or someone who wants to help chaos suddenly has more tools to do so and starts a chaos problem.
Lol...and that is not a good thing? Event just one event...prevented...or look at my big ass spaceship...maybe just maybe there is something useful here...hey..it is a ship from the future.
You guys are being silly...I thought of a good idea and why this protocol is useful...like I said...hand them a history book...if you don't like this package idea.
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Post by: Psienesis
A voidship built in M35 is of inferior quality to one built in M25. The tech-base of the Imperium is sliding backwards, not advancing.
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Post by: david choe
Psienesis wrote:A voidship built in M35 is of inferior quality to one built in M25. The tech-base of the Imperium is sliding backwards, not advancing.
Lol...you forgot about the purpose...the history book and a FREE ship ...what if that ship has 100 space marines onboard. It is a ship...it must have important cargo...
Storm bolters and assault cannon will disagree with you.
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Post by: Shidank
The quality of debate has seriously dipped off here.
General consensus seems to indicate that the Imperium of man may delegate a small amount of resources into cataloging and monitoring these anomalies, but any attempt to control them would fail.
Likewise, any attempt made to communicate back and change events that have already come to pass would be met with grimdark quarantine protocols or would be disastrous.
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Post by: Psienesis
david choe wrote: Psienesis wrote:A voidship built in M35 is of inferior quality to one built in M25. The tech-base of the Imperium is sliding backwards, not advancing.
Lol...you forgot about the purpose...the history book and a FREE ship ...what if that ship has 100 space marines onboard. It is a ship...it must have important cargo...
Storm bolters and assault cannon will disagree with you.
100 more Space Marines appearing in the Heresy is meaningless, thousands of Marines are dying every hour of every battle. The assault cannon and the stormbolter are not post-Heresy inventions.
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Post by: david choe
Shidank wrote:The quality of debate has seriously dipped off here.
General consensus seems to indicate that the Imperium of man may delegate a small amount of resources into cataloging and monitoring these anomalies, but any attempt to control them would fail.
Likewise, any attempt made to communicate back and change events that have already come to pass would be met with grimdark quarantine protocols or would be disastrous.
But why would they not want to look at the history book from the future? They don't want an edge? BTW...I think I was clear that for people in the present to look at the package, it is useless because it is a history....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote: david choe wrote: Psienesis wrote:A voidship built in M35 is of inferior quality to one built in M25. The tech-base of the Imperium is sliding backwards, not advancing.
Lol...you forgot about the purpose...the history book and a FREE ship ...what if that ship has 100 space marines onboard. It is a ship...it must have important cargo...
Storm bolters and assault cannon will disagree with you.
100 more Space Marines appearing in the Heresy is meaningless, thousands of Marines are dying every hour of every battle. The assault cannon and the stormbolter are not post-Heresy inventions.
.... .....
The ship could arrive at other spot...not every ship travel to terra and for heresy purpose. The ship could arrive at sector z in time to help out an ork invasion. Long story short....take the damn history book...it will help you.
Yes...storm bolsters were post heresy...this is why chaos space marines do not have it...it is a loyalist trademark weapon.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Storm_Bolter
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Post by: Shidank
I've read enough 40k to know no one would look at the package and that anyone who might have would have been killed, evidence destroyed, and contacts extinguished or quarantined.
This is grimdark.
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Post by: david choe
Shidank wrote:I've read enough 40k to know no one would look at the package and that anyone who might have would have been killed, evidence destroyed, and contacts extinguished or quarantined.
This is grimdark.
What about history books Or TIME man of the year article of 40,999 issue?
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Post by: Shidank
david choe wrote: Shidank wrote:I've read enough 40k to know no one would look at the package and that anyone who might have would have been killed, evidence destroyed, and contacts extinguished or quarantined.
This is grimdark.
What about history books Or TIME man of the year article of 40,999 issue?
I could see this being grounds for the exterminatus of 200 worlds.
Grimdark.
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Post by: statu
At what point would they discover they've traveled back in time though? I can't imagine that all ships are constantly sending out a vox transmission asking the date. And even if they did travel back, a ship, appearing somewhere it shouldn't be, that may not be friendly is going to have every thing the local sector has thrown at it to ensure it ain't a threat, meaning they aren't going to get a chance to hand over this history book. And why would they? Say they survive long enough to discover they're in a different time period, and they have this book, anyone they hand it to would consider them either A. A heretic, or B. A nutcase that needs ignoring
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Post by: david choe
 statu wrote:At what point would they discover they've traveled back in time though? I can't imagine that all ships are constantly sending out a vox transmission asking the date. And even if they did travel back, a ship, appearing somewhere it shouldn't be, that may not be friendly is going to have every thing the local sector has thrown at it to ensure it ain't a threat, meaning they aren't going to get a chance to hand over this history book. And why would they? Say they survive long enough to discover they're in a different time period, and they have this book, anyone they hand it to would consider them either A. A heretic, or B. A nutcase that needs ignoring
Ok....because it is protocol...let's assume...they start this protocol in year 40,990
Year 40,992...they spot a unknow ship...the ship communicate to the planet...now they realise that the ship is from 40,998 (only went back in time by 6 years).
Because the protocol has been established in 40,990 not to blast them...after the ship and passanger has been in quarantine for two months on space port and their next of kin verify ....yes they are my grand sons, mothers, etc....genetic checking...we know they are from the future....
Let's look at the package...this package has news article, magazine, history book, etc.... What...out governor will be assassianate in 40,995 by a nut chaos cultist! Out break of Nurgle rot at sector c...
The question to me is....are ther now two mr. James in this universe now? The one who is 30 on the planet and mr. James who is 36 on the ship.
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Post by: curran12
You have a greatly inflated view on how efficient the Imperium is.
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Post by: david choe
curran12 wrote:You have a greatly inflated view on how efficient the Imperium is.
It not a big deal at all....
You guys are making this shoot first into comedy.
You don't think there are lost ship or ship that arrived too soon or too late using unpredictable warp travel?
Yes, Pirates might lie that they are from the future...they also lie about we are late or lost too.
This is up to the authority to judge if they are telling the truth. At least know that from the future or the past is a possibility.
There are spaceship all over imperial space and on average...50% or more will not be on schedule...so it is a friendly fire shot out every where is a freaking joke.
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Post by: Sgt_Smudge
david choe wrote: curran12 wrote:You have a greatly inflated view on how efficient the Imperium is.
It not a big deal at all....
You guys are making this shoot first into comedy.
You don't think there are lost ship or ship that arrived too soon or too late using unpredictable warp travel?
Yes, Pirates might lie that they are from the future...they also lie about we are late or lost too.
This is up to the authority to judge if they are telling the truth. At least know that from the future or the past is a possibility.
There are spaceship all over imperial space and on average...50% or more will not be on schedule...so it is a friendly fire shot out every where is a freaking joke.
But the Imperium is exactly that. Nothing that makes sense to us, but it it is all they have left. There is a reason it is the grimdarkness. Plus, they would be shot for heresy before getting to say otherwise. Unmarked vessel comes out of warp? Kill it with fire. Welcome to the Imperium. Have these recycled body nutri-cookies.
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Post by: david choe
Sgt_Smudge wrote: david choe wrote: curran12 wrote:You have a greatly inflated view on how efficient the Imperium is.
It not a big deal at all....
You guys are making this shoot first into comedy.
You don't think there are lost ship or ship that arrived too soon or too late using unpredictable warp travel?
Yes, Pirates might lie that they are from the future...they also lie about we are late or lost too.
This is up to the authority to judge if they are telling the truth. At least know that from the future or the past is a possibility.
There are spaceship all over imperial space and on average...50% or more will not be on schedule...so it is a friendly fire shot out every where is a freaking joke.
But the Imperium is exactly that. Nothing that makes sense to us, but it it is all they have left. There is a reason it is the grimdarkness. Plus, they would be shot for heresy before getting to say otherwise. Unmarked vessel comes out of warp? Kill it with fire. Welcome to the Imperium. Have these recycled body nutri-cookies.
Let me think about this....
But they can check the data...
gak...what am I doing...you got a good point...
Stupid Imperium ...I handed them chaos's head on a silver plater and I got shot for it.
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Post by: SirDonlad
so in theory, just owning a time machine is enough to make sure that anything which upsets your status quo enough will just not happen; as long as you had access to your time machine afterwards.
sorted! you don't even need to do anything to keep your little section of the universe safe!
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Post by: david choe
 SirDonlad wrote:so in theory, just owning a time machine is enough to make sure that anything which upsets your status quo enough will just not happen; as long as you had access to your time machine afterwards.
sorted! you don't even need to do anything to keep your little section of the universe safe!
I think just owning a history book with a wrong printed date will get you and your family killed.
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Post by: Wyzilla
 Furyou Miko wrote:In 40k's case, I'd go with stable time loops. Every time traveller who tries to change something already did, and that's why the present is how it is.
Well, going by what is more probable in real life, time travelers to the past would never change anything. They're preordained to go back in time because they already did travel back in time.
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Post by: Peregrine
One more thing: I don't know why you're assuming that time travel with a history book automatically helps. For example, let's say you go back in time, and because you're not very creative you go kill Hitler like every other time traveler. In fact, you kill him in the perfect way, turn Germany into a progressive utopia, and create a new age of peace and prosperity for everyone in the region. You congratulate yourself on how clever you are, and return to your original time. Except you step out of your time machine into a radioactive wasteland where you're the only surviving human. Oops. Too bad you fixed one problem only to create a bigger one. Because it turns out that without the "Europe first" strategy the US effortlessly crushes Japan's imperialist ambitions with its overwhelming industrial advantages, and without an extended pacific war the original nuclear attacks never happened. So, without that horrifying example to make everyone realize how desperately they need to avoid a full-scale nuclear war the first use of nuclear weapons results in the end of human civilization. Congratulations time traveler, you just destroyed the world.
Now repeat this scenario with the Imperium, except instead of merely killing everyone you handed the universe to chaos and condemned all of humanity to a fate worse than death.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Peregrine wrote:One more thing: I don't know why you're assuming that time travel with a history book automatically helps. For example, let's say you go back in time, and because you're not very creative you go kill Hitler like every other time traveler. In fact, you kill him in the perfect way, turn Germany into a progressive utopia, and create a new age of peace and prosperity for everyone in the region. You congratulate yourself on how clever you are, and return to your original time. Except you step out of your time machine into a radioactive wasteland where you're the only surviving human. Oops. Too bad you fixed one problem only to create a bigger one. Because it turns out that without the "Europe first" strategy the US effortlessly crushes Japan's imperialist ambitions with its overwhelming industrial advantages, and without an extended pacific war the original nuclear attacks never happened. So, without that horrifying example to make everyone realize how desperately they need to avoid a full-scale nuclear war the first use of nuclear weapons results in the end of human civilization. Congratulations time traveler, you just destroyed the world. Now repeat this scenario with the Imperium, except instead of merely killing everyone you handed the universe to chaos and condemned all of humanity to a fate worse than death.
Or alternatively, your actions already happened and history doesn't change at all- rather you had a part to play all along.
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Post by: david choe
Peregrine wrote:One more thing: I don't know why you're assuming that time travel with a history book automatically helps. For example, let's say you go back in time, and because you're not very creative you go kill Hitler like every other time traveler. In fact, you kill him in the perfect way, turn Germany into a progressive utopia, and create a new age of peace and prosperity for everyone in the region. You congratulate yourself on how clever you are, and return to your original time. Except you step out of your time machine into a radioactive wasteland where you're the only surviving human. Oops. Too bad you fixed one problem only to create a bigger one. Because it turns out that without the "Europe first" strategy the US effortlessly crushes Japan's imperialist ambitions with its overwhelming industrial advantages, and without an extended pacific war the original nuclear attacks never happened. So, without that horrifying example to make everyone realize how desperately they need to avoid a full-scale nuclear war the first use of nuclear weapons results in the end of human civilization. Congratulations time traveler, you just destroyed the world.
Now repeat this scenario with the Imperium, except instead of merely killing everyone you handed the universe to chaos and condemned all of humanity to a fate worse than death.
why are you so half empty person?
What about half full...which is the whole effort.... maybe the opposite of what you stated can happened too. You walked out and people are united as one ... and no more wars ever again....
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Post by: Peregrine
Because 40k is a universe is a place where the glass isn't just half empty, it's completely empty. Oh, and by the way, the glass is actually a torture demon that just slaughtered you and filled itself with the liquefied remains of your still-beating heart.
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Post by: Psienesis
^ This, right here, what Peregrine said.
This is Warhammer 40,000. Nothing ever accidentally works out for the best. In fact, if it happens by "accident", it's probably a Tzeentchian plot, and ends up causing suffering and horrid deaths for thousands upon thousands of people. Just as planned.
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Post by: koooaei
david choe wrote:
What knowledge is so important that nobody should read it? I mean... I was thinking something more like a quick history time line... like the date of Horus death, Emperor died, Terror invasion, etc.... Most of this stuff should be in the history books. The point of this protocol is to give date location and time of important events that has happened and good Imperial subjects should tries to prevent from happening or make sure it does ... depends on the context.
Than the book gets lost and Biff Horus from the past finds it. He reads:
"...primarchs found - yep, crusade launched - correct, Horus heresy - yep, done it, Emps beats up Horus...guess i'll use some more help there, Hey, Angron!..." - and obliterates humanity.
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Post by: david choe
Peregrine wrote:
Because 40k is a universe is a place where the glass isn't just half empty, it's completely empty. Oh, and by the way, the glass is actually a torture demon that just slaughtered you and filled itself with the liquefied remains of your still-beating heart.
Well....to be fair...I was talking about your Hitler sample. Automatically Appended Next Post:  koooaei wrote: david choe wrote:
What knowledge is so important that nobody should read it? I mean... I was thinking something more like a quick history time line... like the date of Horus death, Emperor died, Terror invasion, etc.... Most of this stuff should be in the history books. The point of this protocol is to give date location and time of important events that has happened and good Imperial subjects should tries to prevent from happening or make sure it does ... depends on the context.
Than the book gets lost and Biff Horus from the past finds it. He reads:
"...primarchs found - yep, crusade launched - correct, Horus heresy - yep, done it, Emps beats up Horus...guess i'll use some more help there, Hey, Angron!..." - and obliterates humanity.
Why is everybody having a hard time thinking that history books are so rare like it is some kind of ancient artifact? The freaking ship from the future already have tons books and magazines...and God for bid....maybe eve a computer with history of information....
This concept is simple ...this is not rocket science...freaking ships in 40k are like city size,,,one of them comes back to the past from the future...the ship must have a history class Or a small library ...all it takes is one history book to and that faction has a huge edge.
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Post by: Shidank
Let's give up on the package idea. The Imperium does not work this way. If you'd like to entertain the idea this would work in one instance with one planet, you're free to do so. Convincing the rest of us that it will work is a fool's errand.
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Post by: david choe
Shidank wrote:Let's give up on the package idea. The Imperium does not work this way. If you'd like to entertain the idea this would work in one instance with one planet, you're free to do so. Convincing the rest of us that it will work is a fool's errand.
Screw imperium...this should be chaos plot....send a history book back in time...
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Post by: Shidank
david choe wrote: Shidank wrote:Let's give up on the package idea. The Imperium does not work this way. If you'd like to entertain the idea this would work in one instance with one planet, you're free to do so. Convincing the rest of us that it will work is a fool's errand.
Screw imperium...this should be chaos plot....send a history book back in time...
And the imperium would burn it, the hand holding it, the ground the man was standing on, the planet he was living on, the star he was living by, and a random kitten just because.
We all get this and have repeated it to the point of absurdity, but oh well.
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Post by: david choe
Shidank wrote: david choe wrote: Shidank wrote:Let's give up on the package idea. The Imperium does not work this way. If you'd like to entertain the idea this would work in one instance with one planet, you're free to do so. Convincing the rest of us that it will work is a fool's errand.
Screw imperium...this should be chaos plot....send a history book back in time...
And the imperium would burn it, the hand holding it, the ground the man was standing on, the planet he was living on, the star he was living by, and a random kitten just because.
We all get this and have repeated it to the point of absurdity, but oh well.
Well...what if Chaos send back just one butterfly so it can cause the effect that people keeps talking about.
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Post by: ImAGeek
It's not as simple as 'just send back...' Sometimes things go back in time in the warp, but you can't plan for it or control it.
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Post by: david choe
 ImAGeek wrote:It's not as simple as 'just send back...' Sometimes things go back in time in the warp, but you can't plan for it or control it.
Really? People told me that in the Warp.. there is no time and the past, present, and the future all existed at the same time..... And there are these 4 gods who lived there and they are the master of the Warp.. like Slaanesh who was born around 30,000 AD because of the Eldar. But Slaanesh has always exist before 30,000 AD...
So the Future Slaanesh can get a history book from 41,000AD and give it to his past Slaanesh of 30,000 AD and then Slaanesh of 30,000AD can give the book to Horus or Abaddon. Come to think of it... Slaanesh of the future can just tell Abaddon or Horus about the future. They don't need any history book.
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Post by: Shidank
I think I'm done here.This isn't progressing.
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Post by: dusara217
david choe wrote: Shidank wrote:I've read enough 40k to know no one would look at the package and that anyone who might have would have been killed, evidence destroyed, and contacts extinguished or quarantined.
This is grimdark.
What about history books Or TIME man of the year article of 40,999 issue?
Okay, and what would happen if some Chaos people got their hands on the history books, went back in time, and made the Heresy a definite victory? Or what would happen if a Genestealer cult got its hands on the books, went back in time, and made Hive Fleet Behemoth destroy Ultramar? Or, what would happen if some Necrons god their hands on the history book, went back in time and, uh... Woke up the tomb worlds?
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Post by: insaniak
SO... this appears to have gone around in circles for long enough. Moving on.
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