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The warp is often described as an Ocean, with currents, storms, eddies and sea (warp) creatures. The currents themselves are allegedly 'random' and they can block off systems from warp travel due to storms or other anomalies, slow down ships and even displace them or swallow them entirely. We also know that they can send a ship to a different time; there are some references to ships arriving at their destination before they even left etc.



So here's my theory -

1. The reason that the Warp's currents are considered random is because no one has the sensor capacity to analyze the activity and patterns of the Warp. To be fair, such an endeavor would require a huge number of warp sensitive sensors placed across the entire galaxy and would probably need many years of data collection.

2. If the Warp is like an Ocean as so many describe it, then at least some of the currents should be predictable and constant, like our currents on Earth. Now, taking this a step further, even if 99.9999% of the currents are forward-moving in time, somewhere in the ridiculous amount of space in the galaxy there is a high probability that there must be constant/predictable currents that take ships back through time.

3. The next question is, how far back in time could you go? I believe the maximum limit would be to the origination of the Warp current that takes you back in time. Unfortunately, there'd be no real way to tell how far back you could travel until you tried and found out. Another problem is that it still takes time (in your personal frame of reference), to go back in time. For example, you might spend a year travelling in the warp current to go back ten years in real time, or (!) ten years in the warp only to go back one year in real time. The ratio itself wouldn't be known until the current was used and even then it might not be constant.



One more step -

I believe at least one of these currents has been found and is being capitalized upon.

The Fire Hawks were a chapter of space marines who disappeared in the warp and were declared lost. Some survivors from their fleet were seen 25 odd years later with different colours and fighting styles, and they were then named 'The Legion of the Damned', as you all know.
The LOTD has appeared at locations and relatively recent moments in time, where their limited numbers (200 odd marines), could make a huge difference. I believe this is no coincidence and unlike some theories (such as they are directed to where they are needed by the Emperor himself etc.), I have evidence to support mine.



The Fire Hawks Chapter was lost in 963 M.41 and became the LOTD after that event.
The highlighted dates occurred before the Fire Hawks Chapter was even declared lost, which indicates that some form of Time Travel has taken place.

Dates of the LOTD's appearances:
006.M40 - The Pyrocataclysm of Vilidad Prime
343.M41 - The Battle of Ghodba
852.M41 - Aiding the Invaders in their assault on Idharae
922.M41 - The Battle of Andraxas
940.M41, they saved the Iron Snakes from Tau forces during the Timeaon Deliverance.
FORMATION OF THE LEGION OF THE DAMNED 963 M.41
967.M41 - Battle of Thersuis
999.M41, the Legion of the Damned appeared to aid the Imperial Fists at the Battle of the Phalanx.

I believe that the LOTD has found a constant current that can transport them back in time. The reason why and how they can appear at the exact time and places where they are needed is because to them it has already occurred and they are simply travelling back in time to moments where their limited numbers can change the course of history for the benefit of the Imperium of Man.



Now you're wondering, why don't they go back to the Horus Heresy and prevent everything bad from happening Etc. Etc.?
There are a couple reasons potentially as to why not:
1. The Current itself may not go that far back.
2. The amount of time they would have to spend in the current to go that far back may not be feasible. We don't know how long it takes them to go back 1 year in real time. For example, for all we know it could take them 5 years of travelling to go back 1 year, and therefore they'd have to live to at least 50,000 years old to make it back to the HH.
3. Every trip back in time alters history. The further back they go the more they will effect. They are probably wary of going too far back in time, just in case they somehow prevent their chapter's formation and their very existence, and everything they have ever accomplished. It basically risks too much.

Considering that the LOTD has been going backwards in time to critical moments where they could make a difference, we have no idea how long (in their frame of reference), they have been doing it and they might be nearing the end of their natural lifespans. If that is the case, soon there may be no more LOTD. Therefore I believe the most important question, upon which perhaps this entire theory hangs, is why haven't they told the Imperium of that specific warp current?
Maybe they did..... and maybe it caused a lot more problems and perhaps they rectified that mistake as well. The problem is, I don't believe we'll ever know.




What are your thoughts, theories and opinions on this entire matter?
Do you think I'm bonkers or right?

Any and all comments are appreciated.

Thank you for reading.

Interesting but I think it breaks with the idea that the Warp is completely random with no patterns.

Except we no longer even know if the Fire Hawks are the Legion of the Damned by the Legion of the Damned Codex, which retconned the Legion into being a complete unknown.

pm713 wrote:
Interesting but I think it breaks with the idea that the Warp is completely random with no patterns.

I'm working on the belief that the idea that the warp is completely random, comes from the fact that none of the races have the resources and opportunity to study the warp in full. From what they can see the warp is completely random.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except we no longer even know if the Fire Hawks are the Legion of the Damned by the Legion of the Damned Codex, which retconned the Legion into being a complete unknown.

If that is the case..... then, well feth. I hate retcons. The Lexicanum and other sources don't mention this -- still claiming there's a link between the Fire Hawks to the LOTD.

 Otto Weston wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Interesting but I think it breaks with the idea that the Warp is completely random with no patterns.

I'm working on the belief that the idea that the warp is completely random, comes from the fact that none of the races have the resources and opportunity to study the warp in full. From what they can see the warp is completely random.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except we no longer even know if the Fire Hawks are the Legion of the Damned by the Legion of the Damned Codex, which retconned the Legion into being a complete unknown.

If that is the case..... then, well feth. I hate retcons. The Lexicanum and other sources don't mention this -- still claiming there's a link between the Fire Hawks to the LOTD.

I agree. Retcons suck.

The problem with trying to say "must" about any aspect of the Warp is that the Warp "must" do nothing of the kind. It's the Warp. It does whatever the feth it wants.

A few quick thoughts:

1. This theory is awesomely creative and seems to make good sense ( as much as warp travel can).

2. Despite being chaos and completely random, I recall song that sometimes chaos can unintentionally create order in some circumstances. I remember seeing an experiment with this on the television with two types of spheres and watching shaking force be applied to them. The large spheres gathered in an orderly fashion in one corner. Was kind of neat to see.

3. A very well designed thread. The artwork and layout really made it fun to read. Good job.

FM Argos

Very cool idea.

As for the Fire Hawks being retcon'd -- not something I know anything about, mind -- I would refer you to Lynata's discourse on why There Is No Canon In 40K, linked in my sig.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Very cool idea.

As for the Fire Hawks being retcon'd -- not something I know anything about, mind -- I would refer you to Lynata's discourse on why There Is No Canon In 40K, linked in my sig.

I would take a new Codex released by GW itself, over articles over three editions old and stuff written in IA. There is canon in 40k, unless you're going to suggest that the ultramarines still have a half-eldar member and the Dark Angels are Native American.

I hated the Fire Hawks thing because it ruined the mystery of the Legion of the Damned the whole point of them was to be a mystery. I am glad that they returned the Legion of the Damned to their original roots of being mysterious

 Wyzilla wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Very cool idea.

As for the Fire Hawks being retcon'd -- not something I know anything about, mind -- I would refer you to Lynata's discourse on why There Is No Canon In 40K, linked in my sig.

I would take a new Codex released by GW itself, over articles over three editions old and stuff written in IA. There is canon in 40k, unless you're going to suggest that the ultramarines still have a half-eldar member and the Dark Angels are Native American.

The Codex fluff is so consistently over-the-top, though, that I tend to read it as in-universe propaganda and treat everything as having an unreliable narrator.

 SisterSydney wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Very cool idea.

As for the Fire Hawks being retcon'd -- not something I know anything about, mind -- I would refer you to Lynata's discourse on why There Is No Canon In 40K, linked in my sig.

I would take a new Codex released by GW itself, over articles over three editions old and stuff written in IA. There is canon in 40k, unless you're going to suggest that the ultramarines still have a half-eldar member and the Dark Angels are Native American.

The Codex fluff is so consistently over-the-top, though, that I tend to read it as in-universe propaganda and treat everything as having an unreliable narrator.

So I take it you don't read Marvel? 40k fluff is fairly tame.

 Wyzilla wrote:
I would take a new Codex released by GW itself, over articles over three editions old and stuff written in IA. There is canon in 40k, unless you're going to suggest that the ultramarines still have a half-eldar member and the Dark Angels are Native American.

Whereas I prioritise anything that came out during late Rogue Trader and early 2nd Edition...

There is canon in 40k, unless you're going to suggest that the ultramarines still have a half-eldar member and the Dark Angels are Native American.

The canon is that everything is canon, so... yes. Maybe. Possibly. Or maybe those rumors about that half-Eldar are simply slurs slung by detractors of the Ultramarines, or propaganda spread by recidivists.

The more I think about this, the more it becomes head-canon for me. I still believe the Fire Hawks are the LOTD and believe that they found a time-travelling current.

This may or may not fit in with existing fluff/ canon atm, but I prefer it

A nice theory. I prefer the LoD being the ghosts of dead space marines empowered by the Emperor to aid the Imperium in it's times of greatest need.

The Emperor is considered a warp power by the other powers that be, although is power is constrained by the Golden Throne. Yet the SoB are granted powers due to their worship, much like chaos grants powers to their covens. As all marines bear a portion of the emperor in their gene seed, they could all return to him in death just like demons banished back to the warp. Their souls are smaller the eldar or demons, so they don't have the same powers, but they could given support from the emperor return to aid the living.

It's a pretty cool theory. A couple things:
If new fluff doesn't directly contradict old fluff, then the old fluff may very well still be canon. Saying that the LoTD's background is mysterious doesn't mean they AREN'T the Fire Hawks. I'm not sure if they were ever 100% confirmed to be the Fire Hawks to begin with. It's hinted at, and there's a quote from a guy who may or may not be crazy.

Another interesting thing about the Fire Hawks is that they were a part of the Cursed 21st Founding, and thus had their DNA tampered with. This could be another possible explanation for how they're able to navigate the "warp currents."

Lastly, it's doubtful that the LoTD could share any kind of meaningful info with the Imperium at large. Their pretty much supernatural entities themselves now, and therefore wouldn't be trusted. Remember what happened to the Flame Falcons? The only reason the Ecclesiarchy and the Administratum haven't purged the LoTD is because they show up out of nowhere, save the day, then disappear again, with no way for the powers that be to hunt them down.

Y'know, I actually really like this. I think the idea behind them not going back to very pivotal points in time like the HH, or the Nova Terra civil war, or killing Vindare before he rebels, as influencing these great moments might cause too much damage to the existing time stream.

Made me think of Dr. Who actually where he comments on whether or not specific instances are set points in time and can't be altered where as other points are more malleable.

The codex still suggests they might be the fire hawks - but then also that they might not be.

Even if they were originally the fire hawks chapter, they aren't mortal anymore - they've been consumed/tainted by the warp, hence their daemon-like properties. As a result, they go wherever the hell they like because reasons.

There are about half a dozen theories in the codex - it's just that no-one knows for definite.

One theory is the Fire Hawks - or at least what's left of them after the Raptorus Rex's misjump.

Another is that they have no mortal heritage and are simply "The Emperor's Daemons" - supposedly the preferred idea of Inquisitor Qixos (although that man had his pants so firmly on his head that anything he says must be taken with a large pinch of salt).

A third that they are from a future as yet unknown which they're trying to prevent from ever coming to pass - hence the interest of the Ordo Chronus.

I might have to get the LOTD codex, but then again I'd never play them so it would be a waste really

Well considering they're essentially Imperial Demons (warp entities, they walk through fire etc.) I imagine that they're either attracted to key moments in Imperial time or that they can use Warp Portals in a similar way to Demons.

Forgemaster Argos wrote:A few quick thoughts:

1. This theory is awesomely creative and seems to make good sense ( as much as warp travel can).

2. Despite being chaos and completely random, I recall song that sometimes chaos can unintentionally create order in some circumstances. I remember seeing an experiment with this on the television with two types of spheres and watching shaking force be applied to them. The large spheres gathered in an orderly fashion in one corner. Was kind of neat to see.

3. A very well designed thread. The artwork and layout really made it fun to read. Good job.

FM Argos

Basically this. Intriguing idea, well thought out and presented, and really quite plausible. I like it!

 Otto Weston wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Interesting but I think it breaks with the idea that the Warp is completely random with no patterns.

I'm working on the belief that the idea that the warp is completely random, comes from the fact that none of the races have the resources and opportunity to study the warp in full. From what they can see the warp is completely random.

Fair enough thats a pretty good explanation.

Doesn't the Warp aka the Immmaterium respond to human thoughts and emotions (and those of other intelligent races)? That would make its behavior radically different from a physical system such as the sea or atmosphere, but still in theory suspectible to analysis and prediction .... except when the Chaos gods feth with you just because.

I like it. I like it a lot.

Now do the same creative thing with Kaldor Draigo. I always like to imagine that he and the Legion of the Damned hang out in the warp together like firemen waiting for the alarm to sound.

I agree this is a very nice and well thought out theory! =D I was thinking something along the same lines too, but probably on a much sillier scale


one of my personal theory's is that it's a lost legion that disapeared and were erased, and are now one with the warp through a misjump/ warp accident. they finally come back to the universe to find much has changed, and now fight for the Emperor.

that or the souls of dead space marines and such.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Doesn't the Warp aka the Immmaterium respond to human thoughts and emotions (and those of other intelligent races)? That would make its behavior radically different from a physical system such as the sea or atmosphere, but still in theory suspectible to analysis and prediction .... except when the Chaos gods feth with you just because.

I do agree, it probably behaves differently from the Sea or Atmosphere. There must be significant similarities though, because of all quotes that describe it as an ocean.

Regarding human thoughts and emotions (and those of other intelligent races) affecting the Immaterium, I see those as random anomalies like when we do Nuclear Tests in the oceans etc, it screws up things in the vicinity for a while but the overall ocean remains the same.

When the Chaos Gods feth with you just because ----- I'd liken that to under-ocean earthquakes that cause Tsunamis etc. Screws a lot of things for a long time, but given a while - everything settles back down again.

The Ivory Disaster wrote:
I like it. I like it a lot.

Now do the same creative thing with Kaldor Draigo. I always like to imagine that he and the Legion of the Damned hang out in the warp together like firemen waiting for the alarm to sound.

I don't really like the Draigo fluff at all though, and so wouldn't do him justice.

That is a funny image though and now we need someone to make a picture of it.

Was torn between bacon and agreeing, went with the bacon , some amazing ideas here.

I like the idea that the warp can be controlled and manipulated, and that the firehawks are going back in time using this ability, and would like to propose a counter to your argument that they are coming to an end in their lifespans: perhaps they take recruits from the battlefield.

Think about it: in the midst of battle, whos going to notice that right before Jasper got vaporized by that titan cannon someone in black fiery armor grabbed him and teleported away? Perhaps thats how they stayed around so long.

Maybe firehawks arent the original LOTD, just the newest set of recruits? The Legion saw the demise of their chapter, and jumped in to save the last of them and brought them into their close inner circle?

Abbadon actually did this in the black legion supplement. He found a time vortex and used time travel to trick a daemon into joining him.

I like this theory.