4042
Post by: Da Boss
So, after a three year long hiatus from wargaming, I am starting to get ready to play a game or two with my poor girlfriend in the near future. I'm quite excited by the current KOW rules and am looking forward to using them.
That got me thinking about the changes for KOW 2. I know somewhere on Dakka some of the guys involved had done a summary of the changes, but I couldn't find it in my search. So I thought I'd post this thread and hopefully start a discussion or get a link from someone helpful!
A second question...
Is it a rebalancing, or a re-focus? What elements of KOW are unbalanced, and if I am planning an intro game for my girlfriend, what should I consider to ensure she has a good time but isn't overwhelmed (some roleplaying experience, no wargaming experience but she's an engineer so she won't have problems with the system)?
I can put together small armies for-
Kingdoms of Men
Orcs
Goblins
Ogres
Dwarves
Undead
Abyssals
So any suggestions on which of these would give the best experience would be helpful. I was thinking about leaving out warmachines and characters for the first game.
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Post by: SilverMK2
Interested in answers to this myself as I will be starting KoW with version 2 and an abyssal army 
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Post by: privateer4hire
IMO some of the unit costings and army lists/construction were a little off. There's currently a difference in what you can take in a casual game (anything) versus compettion play (x number of unit size of any unit type so you can't spam). Some lists just are stronger (e.g., Basileans can easily dominate if you stock up on angels and horde human infantry).
The core mechanics for the 2012 edition are pretty solid in my book.
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Post by: Tyr13
From what Ive heard, a couple of special rules are changing (mostly to be less annoying/require less bookkeeping/scale better), there are a few new spells, warmachines get nerfed slightly, TLoS gets dumped, and everything gets rebalanced a bit.
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Post by: Paradigm
Ah, here we go:
83501
Post by: Nostromodamus
Looks great!
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Post by: Da Boss
Thank you! Very useful.
From looking at that, it looks like Vicious and Elite armies just got a huge boost, and magic users are a little more flexible. The change to war machines looks good to me. I vastly prefer those rules for Line of Sight too, I hate TLOS.
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Post by: Azazelx
Well, Elite and Vicious were one re-roll regardless of the dice roll. Now it's all 1s, so it's a slight upgrade, albeit one that scales with the size of a unit (or their attacks) when previously it was more effective for smaller, more elite units (and Warmachines, heroes, etc).
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Post by: Riquende
And as a side effect, the change to Elite might fix the horrible "Dwarf Warsmith Cannon Battery" combo.
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Post by: Da Boss
Oh, I misread the rule as all misses. Okay, that's a lot less powerful then. Interesting.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
That height bit looks helpful for LoS stuff
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Post by: Da Boss
Yeah, I much prefer abstracted LOS than TLOS because it allows for more creative modelling and is just a lot clearer and easier to work with. You don't need laser pointers and there's no interpretation needed or getting down to a model's eye view bollocks.
On the whole I am happy with these changes. I would still like to see "Evil Humans" as a faction so I have impetus to finish my chaos marauder army, but I suppose I can always ally Kingdoms of Men with Abyssals or something.
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Post by: Sigvatr
LoS is vastly superior to TLoS. No "I CAN SEE THAT SHOULDER BRAH" arguments and people can freely model any...model...to their liking without having to fear being constantly in LoS.
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Post by: .Mikes.
 Riquende wrote:And as a side effect, the change to Elite might fix the horrible "Dwarf Warsmith Cannon Battery" combo.
It's only horrible if you're standing on the wrong side of the barrel 
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Post by: Azazelx
 Da Boss wrote:Yeah, I much prefer abstracted LOS than TLOS because it allows for more creative modelling and is just a lot clearer and easier to work with. You don't need laser pointers and there's no interpretation needed or getting down to a model's eye view bollocks.
On the whole I am happy with these changes. I would still like to see "Evil Humans" as a faction so I have impetus to finish my chaos marauder army, but I suppose I can always ally Kingdoms of Men with Abyssals or something.
The RC are apparently making some "officially unofficial" lists to come out after the 2e rules with analogues for a lot of "other forces" found in "other games".
41998
Post by: angelshade00
I love these changes. First off, the model height idea is great. No more TLOS,  !
I like the changes in Elite and Vicious. Elite especially will now prevent Dwarf and Elf Warmachine spam. Elven Bolt Throwers with Elite were too much, as were Dwarven cannons with engineers. This is a shift towards units, not warmachines.
I didn't expect the lack of long range for shooting, to be honest. Also, maybe this was just a typo, but it says: -1 for moving. I suppose it means if the shooting unit has moved, but it would be interesting if it would be -1 if the target unit had moved. It would somewhat balance the lack of long range shooting modifier.
The Bane-Chant is awesome! About time there was a buff in the spell list!
Also, loved the change in Breath Attack. Finally I might actually be able to play my Ogres!
Can't wait, Mantic!
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Post by: timetowaste85
 .Mikes. wrote: Riquende wrote:And as a side effect, the change to Elite might fix the horrible "Dwarf Warsmith Cannon Battery" combo.
It's only horrible if you're standing on the wrong side of the barrel
Crap, that will feth up my dwarf gunline, won't it?! Cavatorrrrrrrrrreeeeeeee!!!!!!!!
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Post by: Sigvatr
Thank god! Nobody wants WHFB Dwarfs in any other game...
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
 angelshade00 wrote:I didn't expect the lack of long range for shooting, to be honest. Also, maybe this was just a typo, but it says: -1 for moving. I suppose it means if the shooting unit has moved, but it would be interesting if it would be -1 if the target unit had moved. It would somewhat balance the lack of long range shooting modifier.
More that they have made shooting at short range easier - instead of a penalty at long range you get a bonus at short.
My cannon batteries are weeping for the changes, though.... 
The Auld Grump
41998
Post by: angelshade00
Just realized how powerful the Jar of the Four Winds suddenly becomes. 40 Golbin Spiitters shooting 20 attacks hitting at 5+ no matter where you are. Combine this with a Piercing 1 by a well-placed Bane-Chant, and they will eventually wear you down.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
I tried out the rules changes last night... fairly brutal - dwarfs vs. dwarfs.
My force was mobile, hers was artillery and a gunline, with bulwarkers to fend off attack.
The unit most affected on my side was my rangers - the choice between charging in on the Bulwarkers with two handed weapons or standing back and shooting with that +1 to hit bonus.... If I had been fighting anything but dwarfs... I think that I would have gone with the shooting.
For her... the changes for Blast was very, very painful. It meant that my Brock had the chance to actually reach her gunline - and her Ironwatch ended up doing more damage than the cannon had.
It was her Ironbelcher Organ Gun that saw the rangers off the field. (Short ranged, but enough dice to hit that giving it Elite really hurt. A lot. If I had charged the gun instead of her Ironwatch... I think that the rangers would still have been wiped off the table - they never Wavered, just got crushed under the weight of fire.) The change to Elite really helps the Organ Guns and their like, while the changes to Blast really hurts regular cannon.
Makes the Organ Guns worth taking.
The only Heroes on the table was her Warsmith and my Standard Bearer - which was marching behind the rangers.
I think that next time I will get a Berserker Lord to ride with the Brock - it would have made a game changing difference, I think.
The battle ended up being dead even on victory points - both sides badly hurt, well beyond decimation.
The Auld Grump
41998
Post by: angelshade00
So I take it the overall feel of the new rules was good? I am thinking of telling the guys at my gaming group to start playing them already, even they are almost certainly not complete yet.
One question about the Counter-Charge rules. The Counter-Charging unit does not suffer a -1 penalty due to difficult terrain. So Unit A charges Unit B which is just within a forest. It gets a -1 to Hit as normal. Unit B does not break and Counter-Charges, without a penalty. If Unit A does not break, it then Counter-Charges Unit B with no penalty? I mean, does this rule mean that in extended battles, the -1 penalty will actually only be applied to the first charger?
(I do hope I worded this correctly )
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Post by: judgedoug
angelshade00 wrote:So I take it the overall feel of the new rules was good? I am thinking of telling the guys at my gaming group to start playing them already, even they are almost certainly not complete yet.
One question about the Counter-Charge rules. The Counter-Charging unit does not suffer a -1 penalty due to difficult terrain. So Unit A charges Unit B which is just within a forest. It gets a -1 to Hit as normal. Unit B does not break and Counter-Charges, without a penalty. If Unit A does not break, it then Counter-Charges Unit B with no penalty? I mean, does this rule mean that in extended battles, the -1 penalty will actually only be applied to the first charger?
(I do hope I worded this correctly )
Correct. Basically, you get the penalty for moving into the forest on the initial charge, but now both units are well stuck in to the forest so no more -1's
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Post by: Riquende
Good change. The combats where both sides got -1 on every attack would just drag on for ages sometimes. This way, you still get something for defending a good position (the initial -1) but can't rely on it to tar-pit something nasty.
41998
Post by: angelshade00
Riquende wrote:Good change. The combats where both sides got -1 on every attack would just drag on for ages sometimes. This way, you still get something for defending a good position (the initial -1) but can't rely on it to tar-pit something nasty.
Exactly. Just had this happen to me this morning when two units were locked in combat between them for 2 rounds (beyond the first charge). By the time they were finished the game was pretty much over.
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Post by: Azazelx
 TheAuldGrump wrote:I tried out the rules changes last night... fairly brutal - dwarfs vs. dwarfs.
What are you guys using? The 1-page document?
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
Heh, Baragash beat me to it.
Over a hundred pages of crispy Beta goodness.
Last night I intended to take my girlfriend out to karaoke - instead she dragged me to my first Deadzone game in months... And she stomped everyone!
I was so happy.
The Auld Grump - Orx... suit her. (And I had just started putting together some Gorka Morka stuff for her....)
41998
Post by: angelshade00
Thank you Baragash, that proved an interesting read.
So a unit of shooters will not be Disordered in the unlikely event the charger fails to inflict any wounds, right?
And Thunderous Charge as well works this way I suppose.
Oh, they forgot the Twilight Kin out.
Also, why are the Ogre Heroes still not Individual?
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Post by: LordOfSmurfs
All large infantry heroes have nimble now  .
41998
Post by: angelshade00
They do? Where does it mention that? I must have missed it. Still can't give him Wings of the Honeymaze and send him war-machine hunting though.
Thanks by the way.
EDIT: OK found it, thanks.
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Post by: doc1234
Wait are the twilight kin lists missing for a reason on the beta? My group just started this in 6mm (meaning the LOS changes are a great thing for us) but i'v nearly finished nearly 3K points of dark elves....
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Post by: Paradigm
 doc1234 wrote:Wait are the twilight kin lists missing for a reason on the beta? My group just started this in 6mm (meaning the LOS changes are a great thing for us) but i'v nearly finished nearly 3K points of dark elves....
I believe the reason given was that Mantic weren't happy with where the range/army were kit/style/aesthetic-wise (in other words, too Not-Dark-Elf) and plan to revisit them entirely once the Abyssals and Nature armies are done. Make of that what you willl.
All that said, if you are playing in a differnt scale anyway, why not just mix/match the bits you like. If you like the look of KOW2 LoS but want to keep using V1 army lists, then there's no one to stop you!
I do wish that at some point Mantic would release some kind of points-calculating metric, even a rough one. It would do wonders for self-updating lists and for creating House Rules for new units. I'm sure there's a reason why they haven't, but it would be handy.
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Post by: doc1234
Probably will. Getting them list access to drakon riders is a nice bonus though. Shame the elf scout cavalry still sucks donkey. Big changes abound, and in fairness if the mantic forum was any idea TK players were a bit thin on the ground.
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Post by: angelshade00
Also, no musicians and banners. They canceled each other out anyway.
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Post by: JoshInJapan
After a very quick read-through, it appears that the Elf list covers pretty much every troop type for all flavors of elf (High, Wood, or Dark). The only thing I see missing is Witch-elves/Wardancers (or the Mantica equivalent thereof).
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Post by: doc1234
From the TK Buccaneers became Sea guard (gaining phalanx and an upgrade from thrown weapons to bows), and outside of the heroes lost the Abyssal units from their main list (and can't ally as all elves are Good now). They've also lost the Death Stalker Simulacre (the not- avatar of khaine).
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Post by: JoshInJapan
I wonder if you could pick up some monsters from the Forces of Nature list to make up the difference? I know you'd need to pick up a "solid" unit but Sylvan Kin could stand in for Witch-elves, and Centaur for Cold One riders, for example.
That said, having it all in one list would make bookkeeping easier.
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Post by: .Mikes.
The combination of the expanded FoN list and the Salamander concepts really amke me wish I'd held off on completing the pledge manager.
And had more money.
And some spare time.
Who am I kdding, they'd just sit in my 'to paint' pile ;(
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Post by: doc1234
Am curious as to whether shooter Regiments are viable now though. Used to be that Troops we're superior given that the only Reg buff was a bit of nerve. +2 attacks now don't seem like much but I am curious how much effect maximizing your dice will have...
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Post by: Azazelx
 JoshInJapan wrote:After a very quick read-through, it appears that the Elf list covers pretty much every troop type for all flavors of elf (High, Wood, or Dark). The only thing I see missing is Witch-elves/Wardancers (or the Mantica equivalent thereof).
The 1e TK (Dark Elf) list had not-witch elves in it, and I used their entry for my Wardancers. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Paradigm wrote: doc1234 wrote:Wait are the twilight kin lists missing for a reason on the beta? My group just started this in 6mm (meaning the LOS changes are a great thing for us) but i'v nearly finished nearly 3K points of dark elves....
I believe the reason given was that Mantic weren't happy with where the range/army were kit/style/aesthetic-wise (in other words, too Not-Dark-Elf) and plan to revisit them entirely once the Abyssals and Nature armies are done. Make of that what you willl.
I'm sure it's got absolutely nothing to do with the Raging Heroes Dark Elf KS starting a week after the Beta rules and lists dropped. 
/cough.
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Post by: JoshInJapan
 Azazelx wrote: JoshInJapan wrote:After a very quick read-through, it appears that the Elf list covers pretty much every troop type for all flavors of elf (High, Wood, or Dark). The only thing I see missing is Witch-elves/Wardancers (or the Mantica equivalent thereof).
The 1e TK (Dark Elf) list had not-witch elves in it, and I used their entry for my Wardancers.
Yeah, that was my plan as well. I though the TK list worked better for wood elves than the regular elf list, as it included horse archers as well.
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Post by: Daedleh
Azazelx wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Paradigm wrote: doc1234 wrote:Wait are the twilight kin lists missing for a reason on the beta? My group just started this in 6mm (meaning the LOS changes are a great thing for us) but i'v nearly finished nearly 3K points of dark elves....
I believe the reason given was that Mantic weren't happy with where the range/army were kit/style/aesthetic-wise (in other words, too Not-Dark-Elf) and plan to revisit them entirely once the Abyssals and Nature armies are done. Make of that what you willl.
I'm sure it's got absolutely nothing to do with the Raging Heroes Dark Elf KS starting a week after the Beta rules and lists dropped.
/cough.
It has absolutely nothing to do with that.
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Post by: Tyr13
JoshInJapan wrote: Azazelx wrote: JoshInJapan wrote:After a very quick read-through, it appears that the Elf list covers pretty much every troop type for all flavors of elf (High, Wood, or Dark). The only thing I see missing is Witch-elves/Wardancers (or the Mantica equivalent thereof).
The 1e TK (Dark Elf) list had not-witch elves in it, and I used their entry for my Wardancers.
Yeah, that was my plan as well. I though the TK list worked better for wood elves than the regular elf list, as it included horse archers as well.
Well, they did add mounted archers to the basic elf list. And they significantly buffed the tree herder.
(never mind the new heroes)
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Post by: doc1234
The mounted archers getting a buff too. They still don't look like a great ranged option, but they can at least do vaguely proper hit and run now the shooting rules +elite have changed.
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Post by: Azazelx
Dunno. The rest of the RC seem to have been taken completely by surprise by their lack of inclusion, and the official explanation seems particularly weak...
edit - fixed broken quote.
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Post by: Baragash
Azazelx wrote:
Dunno. The rest of the RC seem to have been taken completely by surprise by their lack of inclusion, and the official explanation seems particularly weak...
edit - fixed broken quote.
We were surprised because we assumed that they would still get a re-pointed version of the list, we'd already combed through it and submitted stat/rules adjustments so we assumed when WiP5 came through to do points costs it was going to be in there.
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Post by: Da Boss
I was using TK/Goblin alliance to represent a Mordor or "hobgoblin" force. (Theoretically, I haven't played any games!)
So I hope they bring back the Twilight Kin in some sort of recognisable form.
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Post by: Azazelx
Good to hear that the rules work on practice as well. My issues have all been with the lists - the core rules stuff all seems to be an improvement on paper. Hopefully we have the next Beta list within a week. (as has been hinted)
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Post by: melkorthetonedeaf
doc1234 wrote:Wait are the twilight kin lists missing for a reason on the beta? My group just started this in 6mm (meaning the LOS changes are a great thing for us) but i'v nearly finished nearly 3K points of dark elves....
Just curious: how does it play in 6mm? How do you do distances?
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Post by: doc1234
 melkorthetonedeaf wrote: doc1234 wrote:Wait are the twilight kin lists missing for a reason on the beta? My group just started this in 6mm (meaning the LOS changes are a great thing for us) but i'v nearly finished nearly 3K points of dark elves....
Just curious: how does it play in 6mm? How do you do distances?
Distances have just been a straight swap of inches to cm, and we've been using a standard base sizes from Renedra (the 40mmx20mm strips). HQ's and single models all go on 20x20 squares, larger beasties on 40x40. It works fairly well, we've had maybe a half dozen games each in the last few weeks. The CM conversions work fine and we've had no problems with it (even less now considering the LOS changes).
Edit:
One from todays game to give you an idea
It mainly works because the basing standards are applied across the board. Unit footprint changes are less er, devastating when its pretty much kept universal.
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Post by: melkorthetonedeaf
So a 40x20 is a troop then or a regiment? Math sez troop.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
It just seems like there are a lot more dudes on the right in red.
OT, I know guys. Just curious. I'm enjoying reading the red ink on this beta pdf.
77271
Post by: .Mikes.
I'm more a tad dissapointed Dwarves didn't get some heavy badger cavalry with boar spears. But then again it was apparently only me that wanted 'em.
56050
Post by: doc1234
melkorthetonedeaf wrote:So a 40x20 is a troop then or a regiment? Math sez troop.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
It just seems like there are a lot more dudes on the right in red.
OT, I know guys. Just curious. I'm enjoying reading the red ink on this beta pdf.
Yep a single stand is a troop. The blokes in red are Baccus 6mm Romans. they're actually a LOT smaller than the Microworld 6mm stuff (the baccus horses are nearly a full third smaller than the elven outriders pictured. They look like shetland ponies in comparison). Seeing as the game goes by the base as a whole, we're mostly just going by what looks "right". The baccus models come in strips of 4, two strips of 4 looked empty on the base, so the player did them 4 strips to a base. Doesn't change how the game plays as it's all the same frontage.
On the other end of the scale the unit in the middle that's not ranked up, and the one on the far left are Microworld Lizardmen (counts as orcs). We're handwaving the alignment constraints on allies due to fluff (like my Dark Elves suddenly being vaguely "good" ). The lizards are nearly twice the size of baccus infantry, so in that case they we're just kinda mobbed on. About 8 per base.
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Post by: melkorthetonedeaf
Okay, got ny new profiles printed out. I'll give the new rules a go this weekend. Gonna have to be in 28mm until my wee dudes show up....
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Post by: Daedleh
Hopefully there'll be an update before the weekend.
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Post by: Azazelx
Good to see you're back on the committee as well, Daedle.
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Post by: melkorthetonedeaf
I think it's just editing and formatting mostly at this point. I still wish they'd give the magic items more generic names. I can never remember which one does what... I guess that's on me though.
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Post by: doc1234
I thought the magic item names are fairly characterful and fun
Had an...interesting game today. KoM cannon batteries and a bow horde with the Piercing (1) item, and a LOT of very jammy rolling on his part. Pretty much tabled my elves by turn 4 nearly, and all I really tuck back was a militia horde and a troop of mounted sergeants.. . there's really something to be said about 20 shots even at Ra5+
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Post by: lord_blackfang
I'd shave down the magic item list by half, but that's just me.
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Post by: melkorthetonedeaf
I would add Tenser's Floating Disk.
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Post by: Aesop the God Awful
I was hoping for more magic artifacts, but perhaps not three damn pages of them But as long as no one is immediately game breaking I don't have a problem with it. If you can't remember what your opponents items do you can always ask.
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Post by: melkorthetonedeaf
Building a Goblin force right now, and I just don't have enough bodies to pull off the "hordes of hordes" thing.... so everyone gets items.
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Post by: Baragash
 Aesop the God Awful wrote:I was hoping for more magic artifacts, but perhaps not three damn pages of them But as long as no one is immediately game breaking I don't have a problem with it. If you can't remember what your opponents items do you can always ask.
There are less magic items in 2nd Ed than there were in first Ed ( IIRC there were 60 in 1st, there's now 40 or 41).
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Post by: GiraffeX
Do we know why the Vampire on Pegasus was removed, I was hoping to use the new Neferata (Mortarch) for my undead army.
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Post by: Tyr13
The pegasus was turned into an upgrade. Its still there, its just listed under the vampire heading. Probably to a) make it more like other flying mounts and to b) make the dragon more unique.
22639
Post by: Baragash
 GiraffeX wrote:Do we know why the Vampire on Pegasus was removed, I was hoping to use the new Neferata (Mortarch) for my undead army.
He hasn't been, there is an attempt to roll it into the same entry as the normal Vampire, as an option (like KoM Pegasus are presented).
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Post by: GiraffeX
Cool thanks, I misinterpreted the spreadsheet.
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Post by: .Mikes.
melkorthetonedeaf wrote:I think it's just editing and formatting mostly at this point. I still wish they'd give the magic items more generic names. I can never remember which one does what... I guess that's on me though.
I haven't checked out the new magical rules yet, but if they're the same ones from the Basiliean Lagacy Alessio canvassed the official forum for suggestions and feedback on magic items and named the ones used after the forum handles of those who suggested them. Nice little nod to the community.
78655
Post by: melkorthetonedeaf
Well, that is pretty rad then!
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Post by: Azazelx
They are quite characterful, but that sadly means that most of them are just confusing to remember what they do...
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Post by: Daedleh
It also didn't help that Alessio pretty much just straight copied + pasted from the forums with very little/no editing. Gamers might have good ideas, but they often aren't great at turning them into solid rules or putting a good points value on them...
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Post by: melkorthetonedeaf
Played a small game today without magic items. New LOS rules.
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Post by: doc1234
The thursday list updates aren't as big as i thought they'd be (unless your Abyssal Demons). Elves have gone up in points again though. It's starting to sting a bit.
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Post by: Azazelx
There doesn't seem to have been a Thursday update, according to the Beta forum...
56050
Post by: doc1234
It wasn't a major one, but if you look in the changelist on the google drive doc there was changes made. Not sure why it wasn't announced.
Tweaked all ranged infantry % costs
Army standard bearers in every army have had their melee values increased by one (in most cases 4+ to 5+)
Goblin Flaggits defence increased to 4 (from 3)
Orc Flaggers attacks reduced to 1 (from 2)
Orc Flagger Points decreased to 50 (from 60)
Removed Regeneration and Divine off Elohi, ur-elohi and the living legend elohi, reduced nerve by 1 but they are now unwavering. Normal Elohi now also have inspiring.
Removed Regeneration from Werewolves
Reduced points on Soul Reaver Infantry to 180/260 from 200/285
Orcsbains amulet points increased
Ogres are still smashing skulls everywhere. No change there.
Removed Regeneration from Lycanis
Ranger captain is now inspiring to rangers only (points increased by 10)
War Drum changed to a new and exciting rule!, it's now also fearless but has reduced defence
Dwarf Rifles increased by 5 points at regiment level
Abyssal Berserkers are now unwavering
Naiads Are now Regen 4+ (From 5)
Flamebearers now have Firebolt (18" ranged weapon)
Lots of changes to Abyssals
Magequeen costs rebalanced
Pegasus is now a Hero(Large Cav)
Slightly increases points on Immortal Guard
Fixed a typo with slyvan kin in the nature list, they now correctly have speed 6 like the ones in th elf list.
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Post by: Daedleh
That was the previous update. We didn't have enough playtest data to make changes so there wasn't an update on Thursday. We're now looking at making weekly rather than twice-weekly updates.
New version is out: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nhZLDFOHUXC2MCA6NwYQWr0HF2mSyvEWIlNH4oCtBeQ/edit#gid=549196905
Changelog:
All - Reworked Breath Attack War Engines
All - Pets reduced cost in all lists except Abyssal Dwarfs
All - Adjusted prices for all ranged hordes (slight increase)
All - Lesser mounts (For Wizards and Army Standards etc) have all been upped by 5 points to 15.
All - Balanced points between Dwarf Earth Elementals and Nature Elementals
All - Increased the Necromancer/Basilean War-Wizard Lightning bolt option to (3) (From 2), Points also increased.
Abyssal Dwarfs - Removed Pathfinder from Lesser and Greater Obsidian Golems, decreased points to compensate
Abyssal Dwarfs - Katsuchan Rocket Launcher has been reworked to have multiple attacks but very small blasts.
Abyssal Dwarfs - Grog Mortar has had it's blast decreased by 1.
Abyssals - Abyssal Champs revisited
Abyssals - Elite removed from the Iffrit and points increased
Abyssals - Hellhounds and Mawbeasts and now Height 1.
Basileans - Abbess on Panther chariot has lost Headstrong but gained Vicious.
Basileans - Jullius is now Very Inspiring
Basileans - Twin souls now changed to have global range
Dwarfs - Warsmith rules amended to improve synergy with cannons.
Dwarfs - Dwarf Rangers now hit on a 5+, Their points have been decreased to compensate.
Elves - Elves equipped with bows no longer hit on a 4+, instead they hit on a 5+ and have Piercing (1).
Elves - Elven Silverbreeze cavalry have been rebalanced and points have increased to compensate.
Goblins - Trolls no longer irregular in Goblins
Goblins - Goblin Sharpstick Thrower has been reworked to have 2 shots. (as per the KS concept arts)
KoM - The Captain points reduced
KoM - KoM Mounted Scouts no longer have the options for rifles, but can now choose to pay for an upgrade to carbines which have range 18" and Piercing (1). No more Reload!
Nature - The Druid has been reworked and rebalanced.
Ogres - Ogre Warlocks Breath reduced to 12 (from 15) and Lightning Bolt increased to 3 (from 2)
Orcs - Morax nerve increased
Orcs - Orc Gore Riders reduced
Orcs - Orc wardrum is now -2 to all nerve tests, with pts decrease
Orcs - Wip the halfcast no longer has Crushing Strength
Undead - Zombie horde's attacks fixed
Undead - Zombie trolls now hit on a 4+
56050
Post by: doc1234
Ah my mistake then! I thought that was the update and the original post just hadn't been modified.
41998
Post by: angelshade00
I still see no trace of the Twilight Kin however. I don't mind, but I do have a friend that was too happy to put his old dark elves to use. Any news on them?
77271
Post by: .Mikes.
angelshade00 wrote:I still see no trace of the Twilight Kin however. I don't mind, but I do have a friend that was too happy to put his old dark elves to use. Any news on them?
Matt Gilbert has confirmed (on the official forums I belive, although I can't remember where) that there will be an interim army list to tide people over.
9969
Post by: Daedleh
That's the plan. As soon as we've finished the 2nd ed beta we'll be launching head first into the not-Warhammer army lists, and I suspect TK will be one of the first releases since it's a quick update from the 1st edition list.
41998
Post by: angelshade00
Great! I admit it was fun trolling him that his army is being "retired", but he will be happy to know. I'll be out of the battlefields for the next 5 months due to work, so I can't wait for October to try the new edition! I'll also expand my armies, hopefully there will be new Ogres models!
115
Post by: Azazelx
TK or Dark Elves? Because they're not entirely the same (especially with Mantic wanting to change their TK up a bit from Dark Elves...)
41998
Post by: angelshade00
Azazelx wrote:TK or Dark Elves? Because they're not entirely the same (especially with Mantic wanting to change their TK up a bit from Dark Elves...)
Now I'm confused... Isn't Twilight Kin Mantic's dark elf equivalent? 
68802
Post by: TheAuldGrump
angelshade00 wrote: Azazelx wrote:TK or Dark Elves? Because they're not entirely the same (especially with Mantic wanting to change their TK up a bit from Dark Elves...)
Now I'm confused... Isn't Twilight Kin Mantic's dark elf equivalent?
Currently, yes.
Mantic wants to recreate the Twilight Kin to fit the background from their own setting, rather than imitate GWs.
And, given that they will also have an officially un-official list for not-Dark Elves that can be used for KoW using the GW figures, they are trying to satisfy both those that want Dark Elves and those that want Twilight Kin to be their own thing.
The Auld Grump
70626
Post by: Dakkamite
I know its already been done to death but...
Hell yes good riddence to TloS!
Now if only Bolt Action would do the same - this guy really needs to stop putting that crappy rule into his games
9969
Post by: Daedleh
Last I heard the plan was to make a Twilight Kin not-whfb list as part of that expansion, then later do a dedicated Mantics Twilight Kin list as part of the 3 official army lists expansion. They'll have different names to avoid confusion but they'll be two different evil-elves list like the Undead list vs Tomb Kings list.
39666
Post by: GiraffeX
That sounds like a good idea, I'm glad they listen to their customer base.
9969
Post by: Daedleh
KoW Beta 2.4 army lists released:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nhZLDFOHUXC2MCA6NwYQWr0HF2mSyvEWIlNH4oCtBeQ/edit#gid=2111976336
General - Extreme Range Removed
General - Cavalry Hordes and Large Infantry Legions Pts % Slightly Increased
General - Giants no longer suffer the penalty for hindered charges.
Magic Items - Blasting Arrow - Removed
Magic Items - Brew of Keen-eyeness - Decreased points to 45 (from 50)
Magic Items - Brew of Sharpness - Increased points to 45 (from 40)
Magic Items - Darklords Onyx ring - Reduced points to 20 (from 40)
Magic Items - Heartseeking Chant - Now works with spells.
Magic Items - Kaba's Holy Hand - No longer requires Good units to take, now always hits on a 4+ regardless of modifiers.
Magic Items - Kevinar's Flying Hammer - Changed to 12" Range, now always hits on a 4+
Magic Items - Myrddin’s Amulet of the Fire-heart - No longer requires lightning bolt
Magic Items - Myrddin’s Dwarven Rune Stones - Removed
Magic Items - Piercing Arrow - Operates like Mace of crushing for ranged attackks
Magic Items - Quicksilver Blade renamed to Quicksilver Rapier
Magic Items - Scarletmaw’s Fenulian Amulet - Now Increases Lightning bolt by 2.
Mhorgoth - Can only grant regeneration to non hero units
Abyssal Dwarfs - Abyssal Grotesques - 50x50mm bases.
Abyssal Dwarfs - Angkor Mortar - Increased points to 120 (from 110)
Abyssal Dwarfs - Brakki Barka - Increased Nerve by 1
Abyssal Dwarfs - Grog Mortar - Increased points to 100 (from 85)
Abyssal Dwarfs - Rocket Launcher - Increased points to 85
Abyssals - Flamebearers - Nerve increased by 1
Abyssals - Iffrit - Can no longer take Surge
Basileans - Elohi - Increased Nerve by 1 to 14/17 from (13/16), Points also increased slightly
Basilean - Crossbows - Reduced Points slightl
Dwarf - Rangers - Now uses the correct point % for ranged troops
Dwarfs - Bulwarkers - Increased Points slightly
Dwarfs - Cannon - Increased points to 110 (from 100
Dwarfs - Ironclad - Reduced Points slightly
Dwarfs - Ironguard - Increased Points slightly
Dwarfs - Ironwatch Crossbows - Reduced Points slightly
Dwarfs - Ironwatch Rifles - Reduced Points slightly
Dwarfs - Sharpshooters - No longer suffer from extreme range.
Elves - Scouts - Now have Melee 4 (from 5), reduced points by 5
Elves - Silverbreeze can no longer be taken as regiments, Troops points increased slightly.
Elves - War chariots - Decreased Speed to 8, Increased attacks, removed Nimble
Goblins - Fleabag Chariots - Increased attacks to 8/16, No longer have Nimbl
Goblins - Magwa and Jo'os - Slightly beefed up, increased number of attacks by 1, increased lightning bolt by 1 and increased nerve by 1, points increased by 10
Kingdoms of Men - Charioteers - Increased Speed to 8 (From 7), No longer have Nimble, Now have TC(2), Increased attacks to 8/16
Kingdoms of Men - Crossbows - Reduced Points slightl
Kingdoms of Me - Arquebuisiers - Reduced Points slightl
Nature - Air Elementals - No longer have Crushing Strength, Increased points by 5
Nature - Beast of Nature - Fly cost increased to 50 (from 40)
Nature - Centaur Chief - Bow Option reduced to 10 points (from 15)
Nature - Greater Elemental - Air option now only has CS(1), Water Elemental costs an extra 30
Nature - Pegasus - Increased points by 5
Natur - Winged Unicorn - No longer has Surge
Ogres - Heavy Crossbows - No longer suffer from extreme rang
Ogres - Red Goblins attacks reduced to match other ranged units.
Ogres - Warrior Legion - Increased Nerve by 1
Orcs - Chariots - Reduced upper nerve limit by 1, reduced points slightly
Orcs - Fight Wagons - Reduced upper nerve limit by 1, reduced points slightly
We won't be making another update next weekend (3rd May), the next one will be on the 10th. That will likely be the last public beta update before final submissions.
41998
Post by: angelshade00
Nice, also, temporary Twilight Kin list! Thank you!
50832
Post by: Sigvatr
Looks very promising so far. No TLoS is epic.
Too many magic items, however, for my taste, I'd cut them in half or more. I prefer simple games. The less you gotta explain or look up the better!
In general: three thumbs up for being so transparent. Amazing work.
37969
Post by: Tyr13
Less magic items might be problematic for listbuilding though, since you cant just add command or single models. If youve got anywhere from 5 to ~ 60 points left over, youd have a lot of trouble finding something to fill the list out.
70056
Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Besides, if balanced well, more options are always better for a game's longevity than fewer. Plus, in a game where we bring in so many models from... other games or lines, magic items help retain the flavor of many favorite models when importing them into KoW. :-)
115
Post by: Azazelx
 Tyr13 wrote:Less magic items might be problematic for listbuilding though, since you cant just add command or single models. If youve got anywhere from 5 to ~ 60 points left over, youd have a lot of trouble finding something to fill the list out.
There is that - especially since they've busily been cutting out the options for smaller units across the board as they're so terrified of "spam-lists".
6961
Post by: Mort
I heard this rumor that with 2nd edition, there might be more army lists available, and there might even be one that is made up of humanoids with rather 'rat-like' appearances. Is this accurate?
Also - any idea when these 2nd ed rules will be released?
Thanks!
77271
Post by: .Mikes.
Shipping in July for backers.
5513
Post by: privateer4hire
Azazelx wrote: Tyr13 wrote:Less magic items might be problematic for listbuilding though, since you cant just add command or single models. If youve got anywhere from 5 to ~ 60 points left over, youd have a lot of trouble finding something to fill the list out.
There is that - especially since they've busily been cutting out the options for smaller units across the board as they're so terrified of "spam-lists".
Spam and scenic basing to the point of adding a height stat
9969
Post by: Daedleh
Mort wrote:I heard this rumor that with 2nd edition, there might be more army lists available, and there might even be one that is made up of humanoids with rather 'rat-like' appearances. Is this accurate?
Also - any idea when these 2nd ed rules will be released?
Thanks!
The 2nd rules are locked in now. The army lists in our spreadsheet are final (barring typos and anything broken which crops up) and we're waiting on Mantic for a final PDF to release.
That rumour is very accurate ;-) I would hope we can start public beta of those lists before the end of July, if not much sooner.
56050
Post by: doc1234
privateer4hire wrote: Azazelx wrote: Tyr13 wrote:Less magic items might be problematic for listbuilding though, since you cant just add command or single models. If youve got anywhere from 5 to ~ 60 points left over, youd have a lot of trouble finding something to fill the list out.
There is that - especially since they've busily been cutting out the options for smaller units across the board as they're so terrified of "spam-lists".
Spam and scenic basing to the point of adding a height stat
The height stat is from the loss of TLOS, brings it more in line with how most other small model scale, large battle games handle it. The games basically a 6mm game blown up to 28mm anyway so..
115
Post by: Azazelx
TLOS was a bad thing in such a conversion and proxy-friendly game specifically designed around "elements" of troops. The Height stat is a much needed fix.
68802
Post by: TheAuldGrump
For what it is worth, the person in my group that had the bases that most needed to have a 'height stat' was also the person that first used it in our group - long before 2nd edition had a Kickstarter. (His dwarf rangers are climbing a mountain, and planting their banner at the top.... The unit is almost six inches high, and looks great. He did not try to pass the unit off as being that tall in game. they do not bring their mountain with them....)
The Auld Grump
51394
Post by: judgedoug
I play in friendly games and TLOS still sucked. We all use huge amounts of different manufacturer's miniatures and the height difference between them can be up to a centimeter, which can be the difference between being able to see a horse-mounted wizard or not. The Height stat is a nice abstraction that will make the few instances of "hmm can I see that dude" go away. I'm all for it.
115
Post by: Azazelx
Exactly what Doug said. We ended up house-ruling a kind of height stat anyway, so having it properly embedded in the rules is so much better.
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