I've heard a lot of people talk about hard counters to armies (Drop pods vs. Tau for example), but is there a hard counter to Necrons currently? I feel like while Necrons may not have tons of firepower in a general list, a regular TAC list doesn't really seem to have a hard counter other than faster units who can grab objectives first.

Yes. Blood angels furious charge turns 1 and 2 using lots of dreadnoughts.

Or use eldar mobility to lock your entire army one a small part of the decurion each turn until it's gone.

Or swamp the army with no where to go with 500 guardsmen or orcs.

Or just blow the slow moving decurion off the board with massed rail guns...

Ffyllotek wrote:
Yes. Blood angels furious charge turns 1 and 2 using lots of dreadnoughts.

Or use eldar mobility to lock your entire army one a small part of the decurion each turn until it's gone.

Or swamp the army with no where to go with 500 guardsmen or orcs.

Or just blow the slow moving decurion off the board with massed rail guns...

Theoretically.

Mass S8? Can you still ID them? Might want S10 for the wraiths.

Bring a bunch of those S10 AP4 rockets for guard paired with a giant couple blobs and i bet you'd get somewhere.

Three squads of two lascannon units for the vehicles. Lascannons wreck AV13.

The necrons are going to swing the meta hard towards heavier weapons. Av13 and the rp rolls means you want more str8+ in the army, which is a huge changes from the massed str6/7 you see now. People taking flyrants for their killing potential only are going to be VERY disappointed if they run into a Necron decurion.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The necrons are going to swing the meta hard towards heavier weapons. Av13 and the rp rolls means you want more str8+ in the army, which is a huge changes from the massed str6/7 you see now. People taking flyrants for their killing potential only are going to be VERY disappointed if they run into a Necron decurion.

Dunno, according to very confident people, 5 flyrants will still wreck a Decurion. *cough*no it wont*cough*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ffyllotek wrote:
Three squads of two lascannon units for the vehicles. Lascannons wreck AV13.

Yes, and how many people have been playing AV13 spam since the new codex? Everyone is using Destroyers or Wraiths, all of which shrug off lascannons with ease.

There is no hard counter to remove them from the table, excluding vehicles (and D-weapon blasts like Vortex maybe). That's the conceptual design of the army. The other Necrons units need to be played through 6-7 turns.

These seem effective:
- Debuffs and effects to sneak around their Toughness/Armour/Jink/RP
- Armies with the mobility to exploit range over 36" or concentrate force on flanks
- Increasing your own resiliency through rerolls or FNP
- Reducing Necron resiliency through ID
- Sweeping Advance if you can manage it

Basically, don't throw all your effort into countering Necrons at their strength, which is defeating mid-strength firepower through layered saves.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The necrons are going to swing the meta hard towards heavier weapons. Av13 and the rp rolls means you want more str8+ in the army, which is a huge changes from the massed str6/7 you see now. People taking flyrants for their killing potential only are going to be VERY disappointed if they run into a Necron decurion.

Dunno, according to very confident people, 5 flyrants will still wreck a Decurion. *cough*no it wont*cough*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ffyllotek wrote:
Three squads of two lascannon units for the vehicles. Lascannons wreck AV13.

Yes, and how many people have been playing AV13 spam since the new codex? Everyone is using Destroyers or Wraiths, all of which shrug off lascannons with ease.

Pplease do not up talk necrons. They aren't THAT great. My orks love how slowly you guys try to kill our tides.

There isn't. Because if you list tailor to beat them then seven other armies beat you. It's poor game design and a complete 180 from the codex they had put out since tau that nobody sane predicted these levels of unnecessary buffs. And even if they fix eldar and tau soon as rumored this turd of a codex will be here for years. My necron friend is bummed because he gets the eldar look when he puts his army on the table. Its going to take an edition change with massive changes, possibly in the meelee side making major gains, to fix this.

Honestly, I haven't seen a Necron army lose a game yet with the new book or even just tie a game. Nothing dies, and some of what you do kill just gets brought back (Warriors, Scarabs).

For everything that might be a weakness for some units, Necrons have other units that can engage on such terms exceedingly well, and they just have so much resiliency that you can't kill enough of anything to matter.

Ffyllotek wrote:
Three squads of two lascannon units for the vehicles. Lascannons wreck AV13.

Hrm, not so much through a Jink save however. I mean, they're not useless, but AV13 with Jink is pretty astoundingly hard to get through. It takes an average of twelve BS3 Lascannons to average 1 penetrating hit on a Jinking AV13 skimmer.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The necrons are going to swing the meta hard towards heavier weapons. Av13 and the rp rolls means you want more str8+ in the army, which is a huge changes from the massed str6/7 you see now. People taking flyrants for their killing potential only are going to be VERY disappointed if they run into a Necron decurion.

Dunno, according to very confident people, 5 flyrants will still wreck a Decurion. *cough*no it wont*cough*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ffyllotek wrote:
Three squads of two lascannon units for the vehicles. Lascannons wreck AV13.

Yes, and how many people have been playing AV13 spam since the new codex? Everyone is using Destroyers or Wraiths, all of which shrug off lascannons with ease.

This. I can handle AV 13's fine, but it's the 20 man blobs with 4+ RP that are killing me. I can't keep them down.

 jreilly89 wrote:

This. I can handle AV 13's fine, but it's the 20 man blobs with 4+ RP that are killing me. I can't keep them down.

I think only melee is a good answer to that. As long as you bring at least AP4 (power maul), they'll eventually lose combat AND initiative.

If they have a zealot/fearless guy involved... don't melee them with elite people

Or, if you're talking about Flayed ones... no melee unless you're T9

 Orock wrote:
There isn't. Because if you list tailor to beat them then seven other armies beat you. It's poor game design and a complete 180 from the codex they had put out since tau that nobody sane predicted these levels of unnecessary buffs. And even if they fix eldar and tau soon as rumored this turd of a codex will be here for years. My necron friend is bummed because he gets the eldar look when he puts his army on the table. Its going to take an edition change with massive changes, possibly in the meelee side making major gains, to fix this.

This. One of my cron friends literally stopped playing because the army got "too OP" for his tastes, and he doesn't like "competitive games." I liked playing with him before, and I have to agree. To stand a decent chance I can't screw around with some Sanguinor-led silly list with dreadnoughts as long range fire like we used to. I have to at least bring a B+ or better game against them. A-game if they have decurion bonuses.

The only cron lists I've personally seen lose with my own eyes were CAD's with 3 or less wraiths (not units, 3 or less models.)

I may be a new player, but I have played against the new Necrons and have some thoughts as to dealing with them.

First, treat them as you would any specialist army: focus all your army's firepower on one unit at a time, and they will crumble.

Second, target priority is critical. Kill the most dangerous unit(s) first. In most cases, this is the unit closest to your own models.

Third, stay mobile. Necrons can be mobile, but only in short bursts (apart from Tomb Blades, but they are a distraction unit to be ignored). Going back to the second point, Necrons don't do long range firepower, apart from a couple units. Kite them around the board and contest their backfield objectives. The necron player will have to choose between slowly advancing to take objectives to backtracking onto his own.

As far as wraiths go, I've found that shooting them to death is the best and most viable option. Massed S5/6/7 shots will force the necron player to roll saves, and wraiths fail as often as any 3+ save. Massed snipers and/or poison shots also work well.

As for melee, it works well against Necron Warriors/Immortals, but not wraiths. Unless you have a unit that hits at I6 or better with massed S5 or better attacks with insane WS, you won't be able to kill them. They simply mulch any unit they come into contact with. Tarpitting them also doesn't work, as they have too many attacks at too high an initiative. The only way I could see tarpitting wraiths working is with Tyranids' 30-strong broods of gaunts, as those are cost-effective enough to be expendable, and for the same price as a unit of wraiths, you con have another 30-stong brood waiting to charge after the first is eliminated.

I suppose at ~43 points a Coil Wraith is about as durable to AP4 as a 3x Tac Marines. 18 S4 hits;

18(1/2)(1/3) = 18/6 = 3 (3x Dead Tacs)
18(1/3)(1/3) = 18/9 = 2 (1x Dead Wraith)

I play vs crons alot... I don't think theres a specific counter to them. But they are slow (other than wraiths) heavy flamers seem to do pretty well in my experience but there is little way through the RP even if you ID them, theyre still pretty tough... Grab the objectives before them, tie them up in some other area of the board and just make them chase you!

Yeah Imperial Guard has them, it's called out of LOS Manticore Blasts and Basilisk shots.

It's really annoying reduces the RP of saves and is a high enough ST to Instant Death models.

Things I hate fighting

1. Wraithknights
2. Manticores and out LOS ST10
3. Anything with Invisibility

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah Imperial Guard has them, it's called out of LOS Manticore Blasts and Basilisk shots.

Basilisks have a gigantic minimum range of most of the board however, and give up a lot over an AV14 Russ to get that Barrage capability. Manticores are ok, but are only really effective against Warriors and Flayed ones. Against anything else, all it's doing is subtracting 1 from RP for the most part, and ID'ing Wraiths that fail their 3++ Invul (and 5+ RP if in Decurion). They *can* do something, but aren't exactly spectacularly effective at 170pts a pop and useless after turn 4.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

This. I can handle AV 13's fine, but it's the 20 man blobs with 4+ RP that are killing me. I can't keep them down.

I think only melee is a good answer to that. As long as you bring at least AP4 (power maul), they'll eventually lose combat AND initiative.

If they have a zealot/fearless guy involved... don't melee them with elite people

Or, if you're talking about Flayed ones... no melee unless you're T9

Melee would be a good option, but even then I've seen Necrons own in that department. I've been charged by 5 bloodcrushers with only my 9 warriors and some non-combat characters, popped a res orb, and tied combat the turn they charged. Same thing with a squad of Ork Nobz and a warboss. Heck, even 10 of my Flayed Ones took on a 10 man squad of Khorne Berserkers with Chain Axes and held them up for like, 3 turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:


This. I can handle AV 13's fine, but it's the 20 man blobs with 4+ RP that are killing me. I can't keep them down.

Yup, my guard friend has said the same thing. It's a blessing when I decide to play a few more vehicles in a list.

So DA Dakka Banner doesn't cut the cheese?

 TheNewBlood wrote:
I may be a new player, but I have played against the new Necrons and have some thoughts as to dealing with them.

First, treat them as you would any specialist army: focus all your army's firepower on one unit at a time, and they will crumble.

Second, target priority is critical. Kill the most dangerous unit(s) first. In most cases, this is the unit closest to your own models.

Third, stay mobile. Necrons can be mobile, but only in short bursts (apart from Tomb Blades, but they are a distraction unit to be ignored). Going back to the second point, Necrons don't do long range firepower, apart from a couple units. Kite them around the board and contest their backfield objectives. The necron player will have to choose between slowly advancing to take objectives to backtracking onto his own.

As far as wraiths go, I've found that shooting them to death is the best and most viable option. Massed S5/6/7 shots will force the necron player to roll saves, and wraiths fail as often as any 3+ save. Massed snipers and/or poison shots also work well.

As for melee, it works well against Necron Warriors/Immortals, but not wraiths. Unless you have a unit that hits at I6 or better with massed S5 or better attacks with insane WS, you won't be able to kill them. They simply mulch any unit they come into contact with. Tarpitting them also doesn't work, as they have too many attacks at too high an initiative. The only way I could see tarpitting wraiths working is with Tyranids' 30-strong broods of gaunts, as those are cost-effective enough to be expendable, and for the same price as a unit of wraiths, you con have another 30-stong brood waiting to charge after the first is eliminated.

I don't want it to seem like I'm arguing just for the sake of arguing, and I don't want to constantly talk up Necrons, as some of you might think I'm doing, but I would like to add my 2 cents here from my experiences with the 10 games I've played so far.

First, my friend fired 2000 points into my squad of Wraiths for 2 turns, still couldn't kill them all. And another friend fired manticore shots into my warriors in another game, did 17 wounds, lost 5 models. now, it is a sound strategy to focus fire, just not as much as it was in the previous codex. They're just that resilient in the Decurion, at least with how I've played them.

Second, same as the first, Wraiths/praetorians will typically be the first scary thing you want to shoot at, but again, not really point-n-click killable.

Third, Necrons have a ton of mobility, especially depending on your local meta. I've used Monoliths 3 times now, and they have proved extremely useful for getting blobs wherever you want on the board. Tomb Blades are great, Wraiths and Praetorians will threaten things very quickly, almost anything can take a Night Scythe (36" move, 6" Disembark is needed to get anywhere you want), Destroyers can kite units themselves, as well as Deep Strike, along with Flayed Ones and Deathmarks. Necrons have more mobility than people give them credit for. Also, my Tau friend kited me for most of the game, and by turn 5 I cornered him and wiped him off the board.

As far as massed S5/6/7 shooting, my friend fired nothing but twin-linked missile pods at my Wraiths for those couple of turns. Just putting that out there.

Also, see my other posts as to how melee can be won easily with Warriors/immortals. I'm not meaning to downplay strategies, but from my experience it's not as easy as everyone makes it seem.

 Filch wrote:
So DA Dakka Banner doesn't cut the cheese?

Is this serious? Bolters aren't even AP 5. I think general SM with Grav Centurions have a better chance against Cron Hordes than Dakka Banners.

 Filch wrote:
So DA Dakka Banner doesn't cut the cheese?

When did it ever?

The army has a problem with really high toughness models that also have a good armour save, Wraith Knights , Rip Tides ,etc..

Sweeping them in mellee can work if you can simultaniusly get rid of wraiths somehow. Be it tarpitting or shooting them to death. Shooting is an option but they're dead hard - especially with 4+++ from a spiderman.

Martel732 wrote:

 Filch wrote:
So DA Dakka Banner doesn't cut the cheese?

When did it ever?

In the magic land where DA are overpowered and mowing down Eldar and Knights left and right. Oh, and winning the BAO

What update are you using so you can play with Spider Man in your list thanks .

Martel732 wrote:

 Filch wrote:
So DA Dakka Banner doesn't cut the cheese?

When did it ever?

Ravenwing used to be SAVAGE against wraithwing-- a rad grenade to drop them to toughness not much then 24-48 bolter shots. Before the RP and T buff that wraiths got, the RW used to be able to cripple a squad a turn, if not completely wipe them. They were tough, but that's a butt-ton of bolter shots to take to the face at reduced toughness.

Ravenwing still do have a bunch of blinding tricks-- and Blinding remains a pretty good tactic against crons since their initiative is usually pretty lousy. But its a pretty tough battle now. Plus, if they bring any kind of airplane... sad times unless you splurged for some forgeworld stuff.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The necrons are going to swing the meta hard towards heavier weapons. Av13 and the rp rolls means you want more str8+ in the army, which is a huge changes from the massed str6/7 you see now. People taking flyrants for their killing potential only are going to be VERY disappointed if they run into a Necron decurion.

Dunno, according to very confident people, 5 flyrants will still wreck a Decurion. *cough*no it wont*cough*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ffyllotek wrote:
Three squads of two lascannon units for the vehicles. Lascannons wreck AV13.

Yes, and how many people have been playing AV13 spam since the new codex? Everyone is using Destroyers or Wraiths, all of which shrug off lascannons with ease.

Flynids wreck my crons hard. Everytime. I usualy lose with crons. Against tournament lists i still find it hard to manage a win

Two words; heavy bolter.

Put as many on the table as you possibly can and watch the warriors and wraith drop like grechin infront of a baneblade.

It's just crazy enough to work!

Two things are super effective I've found (I stopped playing Decurion because I started getting looks):

1. Mass poison shots make all my sexy T5 units worthless. It is infuriating to have 20 bolter shots wound on a 2+ or 4+. Sternguard, Dark Eldar, and Tyranids are hotness against me.

2. Stop being an idiot and shoot Triarch Stalkers or Spyders first. Almost all Necron armies have units that support other units that make them seem OP. Those units are fairly easy to remove. Killing the right units first will make me hurt more than other armies.

 Registered Ork Offender wrote:
Two words; heavy bolter.

Put as many on the table as you possibly can and watch the warriors and wraith drop like grechin infront of a baneblade.

It's just crazy enough to work!

Unfortunately, you need 8 BS3 Heavy Bolters (24 shots) to average a single dead Wraith. With 4+ Decurion RP, that's 16 BS3 Heavy Bolters (48 shots) to down a single Wraith, about 375pts worth of IG HWS's with Heavy Bolters

Debilitate wrote:


2. Stop being an idiot and shoot Triarch Stalkers or Spyders first. Almost all Necron armies have units that support other units that make them seem OP. Those units are fairly easy to remove. Killing the right units first will make me hurt more than other armies.

Nobody has forgotten about this. However, not every army has the ability to immediately and adequately strike the Spyder before it's ultimately too late (especially if the Necron player is going first, you only get one turn before the Wraiths are probably getting stuck in)

Debilitate wrote:
Two things are super effective I've found (I stopped playing Decurion because I started getting looks):

1. Mass poison shots make all my sexy T5 units worthless. It is infuriating to have 20 bolter shots wound on a 2+ or 4+. Sternguard, Dark Eldar, and Tyranids are hotness against me.

2. Stop being an idiot and shoot Triarch Stalkers or Spyders first. Almost all Necron armies have units that support other units that make them seem OP. Those units are fairly easy to remove. Killing the right units first will make me hurt more than other armies.

I have never NOT shot stalkers first, ever since I first read what they do. And they're not so hard to bring down.

Spyders in a harvest on the other hand are insane. I can deal with normal scarab spawner spyders, but canoptek harvest spyders may possibly be the most durable 50 points in the game. I don't have access to high str good ap ignore cover shooting, so it's definitely living past t1 unless his dice turn traitor. And as the above said, after t1 those wraiths are down your neck.

Debilitate wrote:
Two things are super effective I've found (I stopped playing Decurion because I started getting looks):

1. Mass poison shots make all my sexy T5 units worthless. It is infuriating to have 20 bolter shots wound on a 2+ or 4+. Sternguard, Dark Eldar, and Tyranids are hotness against me.

2. Stop being an idiot and shoot Triarch Stalkers or Spyders first. Almost all Necron armies have units that support other units that make them seem OP. Those units are fairly easy to remove. Killing the right units first will make me hurt more than other armies.

This. Though, Dark Eldar don't really seem very effective overall against Necrons. You'd think they would be, but eh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:

Debilitate wrote:
Two things are super effective I've found (I stopped playing Decurion because I started getting looks):

1. Mass poison shots make all my sexy T5 units worthless. It is infuriating to have 20 bolter shots wound on a 2+ or 4+. Sternguard, Dark Eldar, and Tyranids are hotness against me.

2. Stop being an idiot and shoot Triarch Stalkers or Spyders first. Almost all Necron armies have units that support other units that make them seem OP. Those units are fairly easy to remove. Killing the right units first will make me hurt more than other armies.

I have never NOT shot stalkers first, ever since I first read what they do. And they're not so hard to bring down.

Spyders in a harvest on the other hand are insane. I can deal with normal scarab spawner spyders, but canoptek harvest spyders may possibly be the most durable 50 points in the game. I don't have access to high str good ap ignore cover shooting, so it's definitely living past t1 unless his dice turn traitor. And as the above said, after t1 those wraiths are down your neck.

Yeah, Stalkers, and most of our vehicles actually, are rather easy to kill, especially the Stalker.

Hollismason wrote:
What update are you using so you can play with Spider Man in your list thanks .

Canoptek harvest. It features wraiths, scarabs and a spiderman.

To win them, you got to find a hard counter to spiderman.

He's not talking about everyone with the "stop being an idiot and shoot the important thing first" comment, he's talking about guys like this guy I fought recently:

I play a CAD with a Canoptek Harvest formation.

My opponent gets first turn before I'm allowed to pick reanimation, and has a Drop Melta squad.

He drops next to my Destroyer unit instead, deeming AP3 scary.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Registered Ork Offender wrote:
Two words; heavy bolter.

Put as many on the table as you possibly can and watch the warriors and wraith drop like grechin infront of a baneblade.

It's just crazy enough to work!

Unfortunately, you need 8 BS3 Heavy Bolters (24 shots) to average a single dead Wraith. With 4+ Decurion RP, that's 16 BS3 Heavy Bolters (48 shots) to down a single Wraith, about 375pts worth of IG HWS's with Heavy Bolters

So 2x Imperial Fists Devastators with 8 Heavy Bolters (well under 375 pts (just a little over 200, IIRC) for 8x BS4, re-roll 1s) would be decent?

If I had to pick a list to beat necrons at the minute, I think i would go with TWC space wolves.

Lots of TWC with iron priests and cyber wolves. Sprinkle PFs and TH/SS to taste.

Str 10 for ID'ing everything (lower RP roll, very good vs wraiths), high damage output to hopefully sweep necron squads rather than shoot them, fast speed to cover the board (good when you consider most cron units need to be in 24 to shoot), decent durability, and still works great as a tac list vs other armies too.

Yea sorry guys I wasn't calling anyone out specifically. I was referring to the people who boneheadedly go after a single unit they deem a threat (example: wraiths or your Warlord) when they could make tactical decisions to win. And then they go on the forums to shout to the world that Canoptek Harvest is OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This one has already been brought up too:


3. Abuse my 24" range to death. Park your units 24" away from me and I will have to eat a whole extra turn of shooting before I can charge you. It makes me sad.

 JTFirefly wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Registered Ork Offender wrote:
Two words; heavy bolter.

Put as many on the table as you possibly can and watch the warriors and wraith drop like grechin infront of a baneblade.

It's just crazy enough to work!

Unfortunately, you need 8 BS3 Heavy Bolters (24 shots) to average a single dead Wraith. With 4+ Decurion RP, that's 16 BS3 Heavy Bolters (48 shots) to down a single Wraith, about 375pts worth of IG HWS's with Heavy Bolters

So 2x Imperial Fists Devastators with 8 Heavy Bolters (well under 375 pts (just a little over 200, IIRC) for 8x BS4, re-roll 1s) would be decent?

If they don't have RP, you'll put an average of 3 wounds on a turn, if they do have 4+ RP, they'll do 1.55 wounds a turn. Better, but still not spectacular.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 JTFirefly wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Registered Ork Offender wrote:
Two words; heavy bolter.

Put as many on the table as you possibly can and watch the warriors and wraith drop like grechin infront of a baneblade.

It's just crazy enough to work!

Unfortunately, you need 8 BS3 Heavy Bolters (24 shots) to average a single dead Wraith. With 4+ Decurion RP, that's 16 BS3 Heavy Bolters (48 shots) to down a single Wraith, about 375pts worth of IG HWS's with Heavy Bolters

So 2x Imperial Fists Devastators with 8 Heavy Bolters (well under 375 pts (just a little over 200, IIRC) for 8x BS4, re-roll 1s) would be decent?

If they don't have RP, you'll put an average of 3 wounds on a turn, if they do have 4+ RP, they'll do 1.55 wounds a turn. Better, but still not spectacular.

So basically the Wraiths won't care. Got it.

There isnt any real true hard counter as there bonuses cannot be denied at all

The best you can do is bypass armor and thats it.

Edit: Oh actually also D weapons.

since they actually can bypass the bonus RP and generally there armor saves as well.

Deathstrike launcher maybe ?

 Desubot wrote:
There isnt any real true hard counter as there bonuses cannot be denied at all

The best you can do is bypass armor and thats it.

Edit: Oh actually also D weapons.

since they actually can bypass the bonus RP and generally there armor saves as well.

Yeah guys, stock on D-weapons and you should be fine.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
There isnt any real true hard counter as there bonuses cannot be denied at all

The best you can do is bypass armor and thats it.

Edit: Oh actually also D weapons.

since they actually can bypass the bonus RP and generally there armor saves as well.

Yeah guys, stock on D-weapons and you should be fine.

What ya want from me? there really isnt a true hard counter to there survivability.

The best you can do is stall em out with a tar pit of equal caliber.

Heck we went through listing this out when the codex was leaked.

 Desubot wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
There isnt any real true hard counter as there bonuses cannot be denied at all

The best you can do is bypass armor and thats it.

Edit: Oh actually also D weapons.

since they actually can bypass the bonus RP and generally there armor saves as well.

Yeah guys, stock on D-weapons and you should be fine.

What ya want from me? there really isnt a true hard counter to there survivability.

The best you can do is stall em out with a tar pit of equal caliber.

Heck we went through listing this out when the codex was leaked.

Obj Sec and play to objectives. Those have been the closest times that I've lost.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
There isnt any real true hard counter as there bonuses cannot be denied at all

The best you can do is bypass armor and thats it.

Edit: Oh actually also D weapons.

since they actually can bypass the bonus RP and generally there armor saves as well.

Yeah guys, stock on D-weapons and you should be fine.

What ya want from me? there really isnt a true hard counter to there survivability.

The best you can do is stall em out with a tar pit of equal caliber.

Heck we went through listing this out when the codex was leaked.

Obj Sec and play to objectives. Those have been the closest times that I've lost.

Right we dredged that up too during that thread.
Though its entirly possible to block out a standard sized objective with bodies still and with the initative 2 you will be piling in last (so the enemy will be moving up first (harder to pull you off objectives))) in assault.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 JTFirefly wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Registered Ork Offender wrote:
Two words; heavy bolter.

Put as many on the table as you possibly can and watch the warriors and wraith drop like grechin infront of a baneblade.

It's just crazy enough to work!

Unfortunately, you need 8 BS3 Heavy Bolters (24 shots) to average a single dead Wraith. With 4+ Decurion RP, that's 16 BS3 Heavy Bolters (48 shots) to down a single Wraith, about 375pts worth of IG HWS's with Heavy Bolters

So 2x Imperial Fists Devastators with 8 Heavy Bolters (well under 375 pts (just a little over 200, IIRC) for 8x BS4, re-roll 1s) would be decent?

If they don't have RP, you'll put an average of 3 wounds on a turn, if they do have 4+ RP, they'll do 1.55 wounds a turn. Better, but still not spectacular.

So basically the Wraiths won't care. Got it.

Pretty much.

I mean, it's one thing to kill Warriors or Flayed ones, but the T5 units with invuls/Jink saves (Wraiths, Lyghguard, Tomb Blades) are mind-bogglingly resistant to just about anything you throw at them.

So is there any way to kill necrons?

Sounds a lot like its the kind of game where you may as well have 1 shooting phase and when you fail to kill anything you pack up and leave.

Boniface wrote:
So is there anyway to kill necrons?

Sounds a lot like its the kind of game where you may as well have 1 shooting phase and when you fail to kill anything you pack up and leave.

Dont count on EVER tabling necrons

Also if you roll purge the aliens then you might as well scoop there.

I genuinely feel like 40k might not be worth getting back in to.

Boniface wrote:
I genuinely feel like 40k might not be worth getting back in to.

Because of Necrons?

There are still WS and Riptides running around, too.

My knight army does well against Necrons. Adamantine lance then a lancer, castigator (anti-air) and acheron (love that giant flamer).

DE don't suck vs Necrons either either.

Tau do ok, as long as the Wraiths don't make it to the backfield.


Speaking of knights:

The Deflagrate rule on my Castigator does automatic hits equal to the number of unsaved wounds. Since the sword is S10 AP2, if the necron gets back up, does it still count as an unsaved wound?

And Knights, don't forget Knights!

I've done well against Necrons with Dark Eldar coven things. The Necrons have no counter to the corpsethief squadron, as they have few High Strength/low AP weapons. Wraiths can tarpit, but not well enough and he is just feeding me VP's. He can't just play the objectives because i place all of my objectives within striking distance of each other, so his only choice is to tarpit them or let me have board dominance. They also rock at killing those Spyders first turn, 5 TL Splinter Cannons seems to do that well.

Definitely second the wolfstar beating up on Necrons. Obviously Adlance + anything will be a tough match up for them as well. Daemons; either flying circus, screamerstar or khornedog rush, or some combination.

Those aside, as tough as the Decurion is, they sacrifice obsec. So drop pod MSU armies are probably pretty good (don't play one myself). I wouldn't call it a hard counter like the above, but I'd bet on you. Against CAD crons, well, it'd be a dogfight.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Boniface wrote:
I genuinely feel like 40k might not be worth getting back in to.

Because of Necrons?

Partially. No army should be invincible.
But too many OP things in general.

On the counter them idea, what about a Farsight bomb?
Farsight and 7 suits (6 touting dual burst cannons, 1 support for c&cn)?
That's 48 S5 Ap5 burst cannon shots at BS3 and 2 plasma at BS5 with re-rolls.

Boniface wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Boniface wrote:
I genuinely feel like 40k might not be worth getting back in to.

Because of Necrons?

Partially. No army should be invincible.
But too many OP things in general.

On the counter them idea, what about a Farsight bomb?
Farsight and 7 suits (6 touting dual burst cannons, 1 support for c&cn)?
That's 48 S5 Ap5 burst cannon shots at BS3 and 2 plasma at BS5 with re-rolls.

You still need to burn straight through a 4+ 4+++
You become twice as better if you can get past the 4+ even more if you can make it Instant death

I think the best options for Tau is sooooo many broadsides with missile fists.
but in general, everything should be poring shots into it.

Small arms fire isn't going to do it. Think about it like this, if you're not denying their armor (or cover) saves, you're giving them a whole extra layer of protection. You're letting them roll two saves instead of one. Let them roll the RP; whatever, it's just like a save so long as you deny them armor/cover.

A bomb would be an ok idea, but think plasma, not burst.

Overall though, I think it's clear CC is superior to ranged solutions. Even against the CC-oriented Necron lists, liek wraithwing or Flayed Ones, you're still better off in combat. FOs have lots of attacks and Wraiths have the invul, but neither are truly eilte CC units. Wolfstars, Knights, Terminators (lulz, can't believe I just mentioned them in any relevant tactical context), et cetera are going to be better than they are in CC.

Gravcents are the one true exception. A centstar with Draigo+5cents kiting around can really mulch through Necrons (except Wraiths).

 The Shrike wrote:
Small arms fire isn't going to do it. Think about it like this, if you're not denying their armor (or cover) saves, you're giving them a whole extra layer of protection. You're letting them roll two saves instead of one. Let them roll the RP; whatever, it's just like a save so long as you deny them armor/cover.

A bomb would be an ok idea, but think plasma, not burst.

Overall though, I think it's clear CC is superior to ranged solutions. Even against the CC-oriented Necron lists, liek wraithwing or Flayed Ones, you're still better off in combat. FOs have lots of attacks and Wraiths have the invul, but neither are truly eilte CC units. Wolfstars, Knights, Terminators (lulz, can't believe I just mentioned them in any relevant tactical context), et cetera are going to be better than they are in CC.

Gravcents are the one true exception. A centstar with Draigo+5cents kiting around can really mulch through Necrons (except Wraiths).

And you should FEEL bad about mentioning Terminators in any tactical context. Ever compare the similar point values? That's 15 Flayed Ones against 5 Terminators at minimum value.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:
Small arms fire isn't going to do it. Think about it like this, if you're not denying their armor (or cover) saves, you're giving them a whole extra layer of protection. You're letting them roll two saves instead of one. Let them roll the RP; whatever, it's just like a save so long as you deny them armor/cover.

A bomb would be an ok idea, but think plasma, not burst.

Overall though, I think it's clear CC is superior to ranged solutions. Even against the CC-oriented Necron lists, liek wraithwing or Flayed Ones, you're still better off in combat. FOs have lots of attacks and Wraiths have the invul, but neither are truly eilte CC units. Wolfstars, Knights, Terminators (lulz, can't believe I just mentioned them in any relevant tactical context), et cetera are going to be better than they are in CC.

Gravcents are the one true exception. A centstar with Draigo+5cents kiting around can really mulch through Necrons (except Wraiths).

And you should FEEL bad about mentioning Terminators in any tactical context. Ever compare the similar point values? That's 15 Flayed Ones against 5 Terminators at minimum value.

I know; I feel dirty I'm not editing it out though; I'm leaving it there for my shame.

A squad of Flayed Ones with beat the crap out of a unit of Terminators twice their point cost, they've got 5 attacks a piece 20 are 230 points, put them against 460 points of terminators and they'll still beat them. It's a 100 attacks that reroll wounds.

They'll kill anything that's T5 or less in CC, a unit of them can and will straight up murderize Wraiths. Even with Wraiths getting the charge because they still get their Decurion 4+ bonus vs the rending attacks.

They just have problems with Tanks and High toughness value.

Hollismason wrote:
They just have problems with Tanks and High toughness value.

So basically, hit them with a Dread or a sizeable MC.

Yeah pretty much they can always fall back because of the Our weapons are useless rule vs. that but it's still a way to annoy the crap out of them.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah pretty much they can always fall back because of the Our weapons are useless rule vs. that but it's still a way to annoy the crap out of them.

Except we'll get overrun.

The reason I said TWC over knights is due to gauss weapons.

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
The reason I said TWC over knights is due to gauss weapons.

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Meh, I don't see TWC as being that good against Necrons though. Yeah, T5 with a 3++ save. but you'll be in my face in no time, which is my threat range. We can also spam S5 guns, so putting wounds through won't really be an issue.

Mass numbers of ap 4 attacks... That's all i think?

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
The reason I said TWC over knights is due to gauss weapons.

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Meh, I don't see TWC as being that good against Necrons though. Yeah, T5 with a 3++ save. but you'll be in my face in no time, which is my threat range. We can also spam S5 guns, so putting wounds through won't really be an issue.

24 range is only 2 movement turns.... it doesn't give necrons very long to bring the targets down. Necrons like to be at mid range, but the wolves won't stay there.

Against a full TWC list you won't be killing them all before some of them reach you.

Str 5 is ok (whether you spam it or not is list dependent) but it's not a great solution. Wraiths, flayed ones, warriors and arks are all at a disadvantage.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
The reason I said TWC over knights is due to gauss weapons.

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Meh, I don't see TWC as being that good against Necrons though. Yeah, T5 with a 3++ save. but you'll be in my face in no time, which is my threat range. We can also spam S5 guns, so putting wounds through won't really be an issue.

24 range is only 2 movement turns.... it doesn't give necrons very long to bring the targets down. Necrons like to be at mid range, but the wolves won't stay there.

Against a full TWC list you won't be killing them all before some of them reach you.

Str 5 is ok (whether you spam it or not is list dependent) but it's not a great solution. Wraiths, flayed ones, warriors and arks are all at a disadvantage.

Oh I'm not saying the TWC won't do some serious damage. I'm just saying Wraiths could tarpit them easily, and we could probably kill a few before they get into close combat. Then, if they wipe our entire unit, well then there you go, another shooting phase we get at them before they charge again.

With str 10 attacks the wolves won't be tarpitted by wraiths for too long.

Necron's really aren't good when it comes to shooting high toughness good save models.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
With str 10 attacks the wolves won't be tarpitted by wraiths for too long.

Necron's really aren't good when it comes to shooting high toughness good save models.

True. But this also describes the vast plurality of units available to play in the game Given the option, my whole army would be shooty, high toughness with multiple saves, hehehe. And of course 10 points per model.

 Talys wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
With str 10 attacks the wolves won't be tarpitted by wraiths for too long.

Necron's really aren't good when it comes to shooting high toughness good save models.

True. But this also describes the vast plurality of units available to play in the game Given the option, my whole army would be shooty, high toughness with multiple saves, hehehe. And of course 10 points per model.

Of course, but not every model needs to be able to counter them, just a few. Necrons seem to have less options than many in this regard imo.

Lets think about tools from other armies: grav guns, poison, psychic powers, rending/pseudo rending, plasma, instant death. Necrons lack all of these. (ok the wraiths have rending and those instant death on 6's pistols).

Consider what counters the necrons have to things like riptides, wraithknights, dreadknights (insert high toughness good save model here).

Wraiths are a common suggestion, however TWC can beat them in a fair fight, especially with str 10 in there.

Tarpitting big threats is also talked about, whilst this can work well vs big guys with few attacks, a TWC squad has a large damage output which will mulch through most cron units.

Destroyers are good vs TWC, especially from their formation. You have to play smart and try to get your fire on the non SS models. Iron priests could be used to tank the ap3 hits.

Lychguard? Possibly, but they are a bit slow.

Personally I find TWC to hit that sweet spot vs crons. They are fast and tough enough to reach the target, but also have a high damage output that prevents tarpitting and threatens all potential targets.

Boniface wrote:
So is there any way to kill necrons?

Sounds a lot like its the kind of game where you may as well have 1 shooting phase and when you fail to kill anything you pack up and leave.

Well, I had a game with my Necrons (Decursion plus two Canoptek formations) against a skimmer heavy Eldar army (with one WK).
We played the relic and he never got close enough to pick it up, since my Crons always got back up.
What helps against Canoptek formations is to kill the spyder. But its hard to kill it early in the game and later on the Crons won't bother.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Adamantine Lance; they still have to roll hits and then 6s to strip a hull point and then I get my rerollable invul 4++. I know the internet makes it sound like Necrons just hit the table and vehicles melt in front of them but the reality is much different. It's not like I'm not shooting them with weapons strong enough to make the Necron player make the decision to jink or not; then it's 6s to hit and 6s to strip a hull point. Sure, give your opponent one big target and they'll focus on it but I field 4-5 knights depending upon pts.


I nearly always have a turn 2 charge with my lancer (that 3d6" run is nice) and if he focuses on the Lancer then the other knights are picking his army apart. I've come to find that the Acheron loves Necrons, that reaper chainfist eats their vehicles and big bads like candy (can choose to reroll on the D chart).

 agnosto wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Adamantine Lance; they still have to roll hits and then 6s to strip a hull point and then I get my rerollable invul 4++. I know the internet makes it sound like Necrons just hit the table and vehicles melt in front of them but the reality is much different.

Not really. Necrons are very good at stripping vehicles. A ghost ark at 12 inches will take 3 HP off any vehicle without a save.

The problem is that you are comparing other vehicles in the game, to 18 HP with re-rollable 4+ saves lol.

The adamantine should be durable enough for some to survive, though they will in all likelihood have to play more carefully than vs other armies.

To be honest though, when playing crons I would be less worried about the lance then if I was playing a different army. I'm not saying its a sure thing, but certainly necrons have the tools for the job.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
With str 10 attacks the wolves won't be tarpitted by wraiths for too long.

Necron's really aren't good when it comes to shooting high toughness good save models.

Yup, Dreadknights are the bane of my necrons. They make me want to stop playing the crons all together sometimes. Needing 6s to do anything is a really boring way to play.

 agnosto wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Adamantine Lance; they still have to roll hits and then 6s to strip a hull point and then I get my rerollable invul 4++. I know the internet makes it sound like Necrons just hit the table and vehicles melt in front of them but the reality is much different. It's not like I'm not shooting them with weapons strong enough to make the Necron player make the decision to jink or not; then it's 6s to hit and 6s to strip a hull point. Sure, give your opponent one big target and they'll focus on it but I field 4-5 knights depending upon pts.


I nearly always have a turn 2 charge with my lancer (that 3d6" run is nice) and if he focuses on the Lancer then the other knights are picking his army apart. I've come to find that the Acheron loves Necrons, that reaper chainfist eats their vehicles and big bads like candy (can choose to reroll on the D chart).

Yes, saying that a formation of cheap super-heavies is the way to beat Necrons. What wouldn't that beat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
With str 10 attacks the wolves won't be tarpitted by wraiths for too long.

Necron's really aren't good when it comes to shooting high toughness good save models.

Yup, Dreadknights are the bane of my necrons. They make me want to stop playing the crons all together sometimes. Needing 6s to do anything is a really boring way to play.

Dreadknights? Pssh, I used to hate fighting them, but we have the Nightbringer now, who eats them for breakfast.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Adamantine Lance; they still have to roll hits and then 6s to strip a hull point and then I get my rerollable invul 4++. I know the internet makes it sound like Necrons just hit the table and vehicles melt in front of them but the reality is much different.

Not really. Necrons are very good at stripping vehicles. A ghost ark at 12 inches will take 3 HP off any vehicle without a save.

The problem is that you are comparing other vehicles in the game, to 18 HP with re-rollable 4+ saves lol.

The adamantine should be durable enough for some to survive, though they will in all likelihood have to play more carefully than vs other armies.

To be honest though, when playing crons I would be less worried about the lance then if I was playing a different army. I'm not saying its a sure thing, but certainly necrons have the tools for the job.

You're assuming the Ghost Ark makes it to 12", Knights can shoot (thermal cannons in particular are great at taking out ghost arks) and unless the Necron player wants his warriors slogging across the field, he's making a decision to jink which results in 6's to hit and 6's to stip a HP. Ultimately, none of this stuff happens in a vacuum; Necrons have toys but so do other armies. Are Necrons tough now? Yes. Annoying to play against? Yes, more so than against 5th edition plague marines (how many times do you get to roll dice to not die?). The answer to people playing 'net cheese Necrons to take the fun out of the game in order that they always win is to do the same so I don't feel bad taking 5 knights vs Necrons.

Yes. Annoying to play against? Yes, more so than against 5th edition plague marines (how many times do you get to roll dice to not die?).

You mean the guys who were two and a half times the cost of warriors and carried mostly bolters? While being the only real effective troop in Mech Meta.

A game in which some units require hard counters is a poorly designed game.

Alcibiades wrote:
A game in which some units require hard counters is a poorly designed game.

Well, then most games are poorly designed. Yugioh, Magic, Heroclix, ext.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
A game in which some units require hard counters is a poorly designed game.

Well, then most games are poorly designed. Yugioh, Magic, Heroclix, ext.

Chess!

What I mean is that an army that forces all other armies to field one particular thing is poorly designed, if not internally then externally.

Alcibiades wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
A game in which some units require hard counters is a poorly designed game.

Well, then most games are poorly designed. Yugioh, Magic, Heroclix, ext.

Chess!

What I mean is that an army that forces all other armies to field one particular thing is poorly designed, if not internally then externally.

Necrons are very well balanced internally, but that's the point of this thread. There isn't one thing that can be brought to guarantee a victory against Necrons (Except Knights), it's mainly just having to think strategically and play to objectives and/or bring weight of fire and focus certain units down. It's less of what to bring, then how you use what you bring. At least in my opinion.

If I were playing against Necrons (I'm really the only Cron player in my little circle), and wanted to put the hurt on, I'd take a hard look at what my Psychic Phase capabilities could bring.

Necrons can't roll anything beyond the D6 Warp Pool to counter Psykers, and if you bring alot of Warp Points, you can basically do as you please in the Psychic phase.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Yes. Annoying to play against? Yes, more so than against 5th edition plague marines (how many times do you get to roll dice to not die?).

You mean the guys who were two and a half times the cost of warriors and carried mostly bolters? While being the only real effective troop in Mech Meta.

Hey, I played Tau in 4th and 5th. I remember firing my entire army into a unit of 7 and maybe killing 3 then they were fearless so they didn't need to check leadership. I had to man the entire unit to get rid of the two plasma guns hidden in there that was picking apart the rest of my army (times 3 other rhinos full of the buggers). Sometimes I'd hit 'em with a railgun just so I could feel some sense of accomplishment by actually killing one.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
A game in which some units require hard counters is a poorly designed game.

Well, then most games are poorly designed. Yugioh, Magic, Heroclix, ext.

Chess!

What I mean is that an army that forces all other armies to field one particular thing is poorly designed, if not internally then externally.

Necrons are very well balanced internally, but that's the point of this thread. There isn't one thing that can be brought to guarantee a victory against Necrons (Except Knights), it's mainly just having to think strategically and play to objectives and/or bring weight of fire and focus certain units down. It's less of what to bring, then how you use what you bring. At least in my opinion.

Knights don't guarantee a victory over Necrons. They're just very effective vs infantry lists. Doomscythes are an absolute nightmare for IK, and Necrons can now spam them.

Tekron wrote:


Knights don't guarantee a victory over Necrons. They're just very effective vs infantry lists. Doomscythes are an absolute nightmare for IK, and Necrons can now spam them.

Yeah, I have trouble if they bring more than a couple of them but the Castigator is decent anti-air.

Well yeah, Doom Scythes are awesome, but aren't typically seen in many tac lists. If I wanted to tailor against Knights, sure.

Man I really need to get my hands on that codex. The only necron player in my area is on vacation and hasn't even picked it up, so all of us don't know how bad it is

 agnosto wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Adamantine Lance; they still have to roll hits and then 6s to strip a hull point and then I get my rerollable invul 4++. I know the internet makes it sound like Necrons just hit the table and vehicles melt in front of them but the reality is much different.

Not really. Necrons are very good at stripping vehicles. A ghost ark at 12 inches will take 3 HP off any vehicle without a save.

The problem is that you are comparing other vehicles in the game, to 18 HP with re-rollable 4+ saves lol.

The adamantine should be durable enough for some to survive, though they will in all likelihood have to play more carefully than vs other armies.

To be honest though, when playing crons I would be less worried about the lance then if I was playing a different army. I'm not saying its a sure thing, but certainly necrons have the tools for the job.

You're assuming the Ghost Ark makes it to 12", Knights can shoot (thermal cannons in particular are great at taking out ghost arks) and unless the Necron player wants his warriors slogging across the field, he's making a decision to jink which results in 6's to hit and 6's to stip a HP. Ultimately, none of this stuff happens in a vacuum; Necrons have toys but so do other armies. Are Necrons tough now? Yes. Annoying to play against? Yes, more so than against 5th edition plague marines (how many times do you get to roll dice to not die?). The answer to people playing 'net cheese Necrons to take the fun out of the game in order that they always win is to do the same so I don't feel bad taking 5 knights vs Necrons.

Thermal cannons are pretty bad for their cost. 370 points for a single melta shot is pathetic.

At melta range you have less than a 25% chance of destroying a ghost ark.

Compared to other anti tank threats out there, that is very manageable.

By the way, jinking does not effect passengers, so the warriors still fire at full BS.

Melta range is also 18, so next turn the barge could get its warriors into rapid fire range if it wanted to.

Necrons vs knights is one of the toughest match ups for the latter. I can see adamantine lance as a fair match up, but not a counter.

The Adamantine Lance is also generally seen as one of the more abusive things in 40k right now in and of itself.

Obviously the Daemonkin Codex with Beserkers everywhere and buying their ap4 chainaxes upgrade!


Actually I am curious to how well it would work now.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Knights have a fair chance of being stripped down by all the guass weapons, whereas tough units with decent saves are more durable.

Adamantine Lance; they still have to roll hits and then 6s to strip a hull point and then I get my rerollable invul 4++. I know the internet makes it sound like Necrons just hit the table and vehicles melt in front of them but the reality is much different.

Not really. Necrons are very good at stripping vehicles. A ghost ark at 12 inches will take 3 HP off any vehicle without a save.

The problem is that you are comparing other vehicles in the game, to 18 HP with re-rollable 4+ saves lol.

The adamantine should be durable enough for some to survive, though they will in all likelihood have to play more carefully than vs other armies.

To be honest though, when playing crons I would be less worried about the lance then if I was playing a different army. I'm not saying its a sure thing, but certainly necrons have the tools for the job.

You're assuming the Ghost Ark makes it to 12", Knights can shoot (thermal cannons in particular are great at taking out ghost arks) and unless the Necron player wants his warriors slogging across the field, he's making a decision to jink which results in 6's to hit and 6's to stip a HP. Ultimately, none of this stuff happens in a vacuum; Necrons have toys but so do other armies. Are Necrons tough now? Yes. Annoying to play against? Yes, more so than against 5th edition plague marines (how many times do you get to roll dice to not die?). The answer to people playing 'net cheese Necrons to take the fun out of the game in order that they always win is to do the same so I don't feel bad taking 5 knights vs Necrons.

Thermal cannons are pretty bad for their cost. 370 points for a single melta shot is pathetic.

At melta range you have less than a 25% chance of destroying a ghost ark.

Compared to other anti tank threats out there, that is very manageable.

By the way, jinking does not effect passengers, so the warriors still fire at full BS.

Melta range is also 18, so next turn the barge could get its warriors into rapid fire range if it wanted to.

Necrons vs knights is one of the toughest match ups for the latter. I can see adamantine lance as a fair match up, but not a counter.

Lol. I'm old I guess and sometimes get previous editions' rules mixed up with current; I guess the old way made more sense to me than the passengers not being affected by their transport performing evasive maneuvers.

And the lance can assault. Again, none of this stuff happens in a vacuum. Necrons are tough vs knights but they die to them just as easily. Should I just say, "yeah, you're all right and necrons are unbeatable, I'll just put my toys on a shelf."? Nah. I've been beaten by them but I've also tabled necrons (it is possible) with not only knights but Grey knights and dark eldar as well.

<Ooops, I repeated myself>

Recap, Necrons are vulnerable to lots of warp charge points.

 luky7dayz wrote:
Man I really need to get my hands on that codex. The only necron player in my area is on vacation and hasn't even picked it up, so all of us don't know how bad it is

Oh, you're in for a treat, I'll tell you hwhat.

Should I just say, "yeah, you're all right and necrons are unbeatable, I'll just put my toys on a shelf."?

Do whatever you like.

I just disagree with your sentiment that adamantine lance is a hard counter to necrons.

It is competitive to be sure, but necrons are stronger against them than most.

If the lance is a hard counter to necrons, then its a hard counter to almost everything in the game.

I sincerely don't believe Necrons are unbeatable and that we're even bringing up "spamming DArks" is ridiculous.

People whining about it haven't shifted how they play.
Yes, they are very hard to kill. Get over it. There are plenty of ways around out that are counter-intuitive to a meta that pretty much until now screamed and ranted how assault was worthless outside of a few units.

Answer, again: Poison. Pie plates. Psychic powers.

I have played with pretty even odds against Necrons using my IG and a friends SM. It's not impossible.

Yes, they can be beaten, so can Eldar and Daemon flying circuses.

The point of this thread, however, is there any matchup which would be inherently very difficult for 'Crons to beat? Marines melt to Eldar, Tyranids to Dark Eldar, Dark Eldar to Guard, there are certain codex matchups which are very difficult to eek out a win with "normal" lists for most armies. Necron durability means that point for point, they will out-last anything in the game, so the question as to their standout vulnerability is much more awkward than most.

How do you fight something that will always have, sans D weapon, a 4++? Un-ignorable FNP is godly, and while 'crons don't have the raw firepower of Tau or Eldar, or the assault potential of Daemons, that ability to survive in a game where so much of a power creep has been in firepower which means, for the most part, feth all vs 'crons counts for an awful lot. For armies which rely on low volume of fire, high power weapons like Marines, the situations rapidly becomes untenable.

I think the general consensus is an assault focus tied with objectives; get durable units of your own to tie down the bulk of Necron forces; you won't kill many of them even with the best of units, but their own assault potential is limited to a few units which aren't as scary durable, aside from Wraiths. Things with 2+ saves or a lot of wounds at a decent price will tie the 'crons up for a very long time, and win or lose in that assault you'll have time to go for VPs. Don't even bother shooting at warriors, focus on those units you can't tie down with your firepower and drown them in bullets/lasers/monomolecular cheese (that's what Eldar shoot, right?). By no means a hard counter, as I don't believe one exists shy of a squadron of Reaver Titans, but the only real conclusion I can draw.

Ferros wrote:
I sincerely don't believe Necrons are unbeatable and that we're even bringing up "spamming DArks" is ridiculous.

People whining about it haven't shifted how they play.
Yes, they are very hard to kill. Get over it. There are plenty of ways around out that are counter-intuitive to a meta that pretty much until now screamed and ranted how assault was worthless outside of a few units.

Answer, again: Poison. Pie plates. Psychic powers.

I have played with pretty even odds against Necrons using my IG and a friends SM. It's not impossible.

For some of my own anecdotal evidence, I've placed 1st in three of my last four tournaments (all running IG) and 2nd at the 4th (with CSM's). I won't claim to be a Warhammer Napoleon, but I'd like to think I'm at least halfway competent. I haven't seen a Necron army with the new book lose yet, and at least one of those first-place finishes was due to not having drawn a game against the Necrons.

Simply saying "deal with it" when referring to their resiliency is both absurdly dismissive of very real issues, and unproductive. Many armies, even if relatively tailored, often simply cannot generate the sheer volume of fire needed to put down many units which Necrons can field, and many more cannot do so while remaining viable Take All Comers armies or within the context of a reasonable theme.

Lets go through your suggestions.

Poison. Well, ok, DE have that. Tyranids have it on some CC units but little/no shooting. So pretty much just DE. All this does is mitigate Toughness however, and Necrons get their full armor saves and RP against it, requiring incredible volume and concentration, and only really comes into play against T5+ units over more basic weapons like bolters and shootas, while against T4 units like Warriors, Flayed Ones, and Immortals there's no advantage conferred.


Psychic Powers: Well, lets start. Not every army has access to these. Of those that do, not all of them have access to Discpiplines that are worth anything. Even for those that do, what you get is random (in the majority of cases), while Necrons are particularly resistant to many psychic powers by dint of high toughness and leadership/widespread Fearless. An extremely high degree of variability here and a lack of universal availability.

Pie Plates. Ok, well, these are about the easiest to mitigate weapons in the game, and aside from D strength pieplates, you don't exactly see pie-plate driving wins. A modicum of spread will vastly decrease the potency of blast weapons, as will any sort of cover. Combine the two and their effectiveness drops dramatically, and that's not even getting into RP or the fact that their efficacy depends heavily on the simple size of the enemy unit (hitting a 3 man unit of Wraiths isn't anywhere near as productiive as hitting a 20man Warrior unit). *Can* they do stuff? Sure, I'm not saying they're impotent, but they're extremely unreliable and variable, and are much more a psychological deterrent than outstandingly effective weapons.

Lets look at an example. Lets take a Leman Russ Eradicator and see how it does against basic Warriors in a Decurion. Lets assume the Warriors are in 5+ cover ,and the pieplate can be placed such that it reasonably hits 5 models. Well, *assuming* a direct hit, that gives us 5 hits, all of which ignore cover. They're wounded on 2's, no armor, no cover, and thus we get 4.166 wounds. 4+ RP kicks into play, and that gets reduced to 2.08 wounds. Lets assume the Eradicator also has a trio of heavy bolters. So from that we get 4.5 hits, 3 wounds, no armor but 5+ cover applies so 2 unsaved wounds, 4+ RP kicks in and we get 1 dead Necron Warrior. So we had a ~150pt tank tossing a pieplate that ignored the armor save of the Warriors and any Cover, and three other heavy weapons contributing, and ended up killing 3 on average, assuming a direct hit from the main gun. 39pts worth of Warriors from an armor-and-cover-ignoring tank with auxiliary heavy weapons and a direct hit and no Reclamation Legion rerolls. And that's about as good as you can reasonably hope to get against what's probably the weakest unit Necrons have. How many Necron players are going to be terribly afraid of something like that?

Yeah, If you try to shoot them down, it's not gonna work,but they are still vulnerable to CC.

I have played plenty of games with the new dex, and the decurion. It is tough, and against casual pick up lists, even basic lists walked over the enemies.
However against people practicing for tourney lists, they are easy enough to bring down. People have cheese to match ours.

Against draigo/centstar. It struggles, ghost arks are at the minimum getting immobilised if they look at them. Bring as many warriors as you want, but 6+ to hit, 5+ to wound,2+ armor. You dont have enough shots to remove them.
Then come the Dreadknights. mobile enough to stay out of your ideal range until they want to assault and sweep you. Flamer cuts through warriors, and psycannon helps.

Necrons DO NOT have widespread fearless. Our only fearless units are canoptek/C'tan/Praets.

Next up, Adamantine lance.
People like to pretend that we are the strongest match up against them. Far from. Necrons are the best army to deal with 1 knight, the worst to deal with 3.

Math it out, assume 20 warriors + Gark w/10 warriors, all in rapid fire range. 70 shots - 46 hits - 8 Hp - 2 unsaved.
505 points for 2 hp, and you WILL lose them all next turn.
3xStr9 melta cannons in melta range if needed. then the knight charges. D3 S10 HoW, 4 D attacks, then stomps. You will lose at least 4/5 warriors, and they will get swept. Only 1 knight really needs to focus them.

Try to tie them up with scarabs? STOMP Wraiths(tried this) STOMP. Anything else, they can out maneuvre. Thats all excluding the other 500 points in the knight army.

The way to deal with lance is either get into CC on your terms (deathwing knights in a stormwolf, / Dreadknights etc.) or negate the shield (firedragons in a raider+webway portal). We have no real way to force either situation. (no transport for Warscythes/No deepstrike melta.)

I havent played against other tourney lists, but i'd feel we can tank a flyrant list, but AdLance and draigostar, are uphill battles.

-Counters. (Tested)
Adamantine Lance
Dreadknights + Draigostar

My Wraiths fear S10 weapons and massive small arms fire.
The latter they can avoided as they are fast enough to pick their target.
The S10 problem (e.g. Manticore, DK, and WK) can be hard to counter as a Necron player.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Should I just say, "yeah, you're all right and necrons are unbeatable, I'll just put my toys on a shelf."?

Do whatever you like.

I just disagree with your sentiment that adamantine lance is a hard counter to necrons.

It is competitive to be sure, but necrons are stronger against them than most.

If the lance is a hard counter to necrons, then its a hard counter to almost everything in the game.

Anecdotal evidence not counting, Ad Lance hasn't had any trouble with Necrons Decurion for me and if you're focusing on the lance, the Lancer and Acheron or Castigator are in your backfield sweeping through your units and believe me, if you think 1 ghost ark is enough to take a Ad Lance down before it's in your face, you're playing the wrong people, you're dedicating your entire army to take down 1 knight a turn. You think people hate Necron rerolls, Ad Lance 4++ rerolls on glances and pens really gets to people. The Ad Lance is big enough to multi-assault so anything you put in rapid fire range to try and shave hull points is likely getting assaulted and will die, no if, will.

I want you to focus on the lance. Ignore that Acheron coming up the side and laying the Hellstorm template across half your army, please do that or the Castigator wading into your big herd of warriors and using his tempest attack.

Are IKs an auto-win vs Crons? Nope. Will they more easily wreck a Necron players day than most other armies? Yep, in my opinion and experience.


Side note:
If I take an allied psyker, is there anything stopping me from dropping invisibility on an IK? Never done it and it just occurred to me.

Are IKs an auto-win vs Crons? Nope. Will they more easily wreck a Necron players day than most other armies? Yep, in my opinion and experience.

Stripping hull points is not too difficult for a Necron army.

I'm not talking competitive W40k, because I haven't done any of that stuff. I play in a 6month campaign in which the more you win territory, the more chance you have to win the big brize at the end. So people usually try to win. I play Orks only in this campaign.

My personal results is: It's a fair fight against Necron if I play Green Tide. They wreck my Speedfreaks, but Green tide do well. You have so many bodies to chew through, and a high volume of fire/attack. Yes they have double saves, but it's pretty much like swarming 2+ save: make them roll a 100 per turn, and you will see them fail a bunch. (there a big factor chance, I have to agree. But Orks are lucky bastards )

Take Lias Issodon, atleast 5 Grav cents, and a large amount of scouts with the sergeants having combigravs ( everyone having Raptors chapter tactics ) and a Smashf***** with gravgun bikers.

If you win the starting roll you can delete 200-700 points of Necrons on the first turn depending on the vaurious variables such as knowing what you're doing and how to play Issodon and Raptors. If you don't, you can do it next turn if you know how to deploy your army in a way that you can maximize benefits from stealth and shrouded.

Just to make sure, double T weapons give the minus 1 to RP rolls right?

Edit: I don't think Necrons are unbeatable, I just think there isn't a lot of lists that are straight up loses for Necrons.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Are IKs an auto-win vs Crons? Nope. Will they more easily wreck a Necron players day than most other armies? Yep, in my opinion and experience.

Stripping hull points is not too difficult for a Necron army.

Because 6s are so easy to roll? And a 4++ rerollable is so much harder?

 agnosto wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Are IKs an auto-win vs Crons? Nope. Will they more easily wreck a Necron players day than most other armies? Yep, in my opinion and experience.

Stripping hull points is not too difficult for a Necron army.

Because 6s are so easy to roll? And a 4++ rerollable is so much harder?

Stripping three hull points certainly isn't difficult. The real problem is half-killing the knight with something hard hitting before it does too much damage.

 agnosto wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Are IKs an auto-win vs Crons? Nope. Will they more easily wreck a Necron players day than most other armies? Yep, in my opinion and experience.

Stripping hull points is not too difficult for a Necron army.

Because 6s are so easy to roll? And a 4++ rerollable is so much harder?

Seriously check some statistics from some tournaments. Overall out of all the opposing codices Knights have the lowest win rate vs necrons.

Also, why do you think every shot is going to be at the shield? With every weapon in most squads across the entire army capable of harming a knight it will be very difficult to cover all your angles all the time.

changemod wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Are IKs an auto-win vs Crons? Nope. Will they more easily wreck a Necron players day than most other armies? Yep, in my opinion and experience.

Stripping hull points is not too difficult for a Necron army.

Because 6s are so easy to roll? And a 4++ rerollable is so much harder?

Stripping three hull points certainly isn't difficult. The real problem is half-killing the knight with something hard hitting before it does too much damage.

And a half-dead knight does what exactly? It's still fully-functional until all 6 hull points are gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Are IKs an auto-win vs Crons? Nope. Will they more easily wreck a Necron players day than most other armies? Yep, in my opinion and experience.

Stripping hull points is not too difficult for a Necron army.

Because 6s are so easy to roll? And a 4++ rerollable is so much harder?

Seriously check some statistics from some tournaments. Overall out of all the opposing codices Knights have the lowest win rate vs necrons.

Also, why do you think every shot is going to be at the shield? With every weapon in most squads across the entire army capable of harming a knight it will be very difficult to cover all your angles all the time.

Am I the only person in the universe that plays with terrain on the table? It's like people play on open tables, always have clear fields of fire and always roll 6s. I've had to blow-up buildings just so I could move my knights around on tables that I've played on (urban).

On tournaments. Tournaments often/always limit rules in some way, change them in others and the results are skewed accordingly. They also have their own missions, often with very little terrain...etc. I'm not a competitive player, have played in exactly 1 tournament in the more than 20 years of 40k I've played and probably never will play in another so, yeah, tournaments are tournaments.

All I've got is anecdotal evidence which means nothing to anybody else, all that I can say is that yes, Gauss can be a pain but 6's are not as common as some people think they are and if you're spending the points for destroyers, you're missing volume of fire to strip enough HP so it's often 6's you'll need. The only thing that I truly fear from crons is cron-air with my knights.

Edit: The pic below is from adepticon 2015, seriously, where's the terrain? "In the grim darkness of the future, there are no buildings and no fighting in urban areas, all combatants agree to fight in empty wastelands." Of course it's easy to flank knights when there aren't buildings to get in the way of your ghost arks...

Does anyone have any Bat Reps of Knights vs. Crons? I'd be super interested to see some data, because going in, I think Crons have the maneuverability and firepower to kill Knights. I don't think its an auto win, but I think Crons have a bit more advantage.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Take Lias Issodon, atleast 5 Grav cents, and a large amount of scouts with the sergeants having combigravs ( everyone having Raptors chapter tactics ) and a Smashf***** with gravgun bikers.

If you win the starting roll you can delete 200-700 points of Necrons on the first turn depending on the vaurious variables such as knowing what you're doing and how to play Issodon and Raptors. If you don't, you can do it next turn if you know how to deploy your army in a way that you can maximize benefits from stealth and shrouded.

This post is why Space Marines need a new codex this year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

harkequin wrote:

-Counters. (Tested)
Adamantine Lance
Dreadknights + Draigostar

While I'm not directly disagreeing with you, we do have tools to deal with things like this, just no one would bring them in a competitive setting (Nightbringer, Doom Scythes, Monoliths, ext). Also, saying that the best counters for even casual Necron lists are the cheesiest lists out there right now really isn't that shocking.

 wuestenfux wrote:
My Wraiths fear S10 weapons and massive small arms fire.
The latter they can avoided as they are fast enough to pick their target.
The S10 problem (e.g. Manticore, DK, and WK) can be hard to counter as a Necron player.

They should be practically immune to small arms fire. A single Wraith, without RP, should require an average of 27 BS4 Bolter shots to take down. A unit of 6 in a Harvest formation within a Decurion will require an average of 324 BS4 Bolter shots, or 864 BS3 Lasgun shots. They're one of the most small-arms resistant units in the game.

Even S10, with that 3++ save, they're falling a lot less than something like TWC's typically (especially for their base cost), and if they're getting Decurion 4+ RP (downgraded to 5+), you're needing an average of 5.4 S10 hits to kill a single Wraith.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lets take a Leman Russ Eradicator and see how it does against basic Warriors in a Decurion... 39pts worth of Warriors from an armor-and-cover-ignoring tank with auxiliary heavy weapons and a direct hit and no Reclamation Legion rerolls.

Thematically, that's how it's supposed to work. Necrons are supposedly balanced out by low range and low speed. Are they going to be in cover during 5 turns of footslogging across the table? You're not supposed to be removing them en masse every time you shoot. That whole example is looking at things the wrong way -- you should be looking at how many turns of consequence-free fire you have, before that Eradicator is actually taking damage.

I think it's more the fast harassment units getting in your face on turn 2 that are causing people problems. You hear a lot more resentment about Wraiths and Tomb Blades than Warriors.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lets take a Leman Russ Eradicator and see how it does against basic Warriors in a Decurion... 39pts worth of Warriors from an armor-and-cover-ignoring tank with auxiliary heavy weapons and a direct hit and no Reclamation Legion rerolls.

Thematically, that's how it's supposed to work. Necrons are supposedly balanced out by low range and low speed. Are they going to be in cover during 5 turns of footslogging across the table? You're not supposed to be removing them en masse every time you shoot. That whole example is looking at things the wrong way -- you should be looking at how many turns of consequence-free fire you have, before that Eradicator is actually taking damage.

Again, that example was about as optimal as you're going to get. When that's *above* average, that should tell you something.

With any decent spread or scatter, that wound output will drop, netting you a more realistic average of ~1.5 dead Warriors a turn. For a ~150pt battle tank optimized for killing 4+sv infantry, that's not exactly a stellar output against 13ppm infantry. Against anything else in the Necron army it'll do far worse.

As for consequence free shooting, assuming it only has to worry about the Warriors, the Eradicator only gets 36" of range, with a 12" deployment, even if it's sitting with its butt to the board edge, the Warriors can engage turn 2 at worst (6" move from 12" up turn one, plus a run move of at least one inch, then a turn two move of 6" puts them within 24" of the enemy table edge and likely 19" away from the front of the Eradicator hull). So two turns at best if the IG player goes first, one turn otherwise. If the Eradicator is within the forward 6" of its deployment zone, it can be engaged turn 1 (if we're assuming these are being deployed such that the Eradicator is going to have range turn 1 and they're not on opposite corners of the board where they both have to advance for several turns before either can engage).

I think it's more the fast harassment units getting in your face on turn 2 that are causing people problems. You hear a lot more resentment about Wraiths and Tomb Blades than Warriors.

Absolutely, but that doesn't mean that there aren't wider issues as well. The changes to the RP functionality and the east with which it can be enhanced, and that it effectively can't be worked around (i.e. by killing the entire unit in one phase the way it used to work) coupled with the inherent issues with pie plate weapons, make the earlier suggestions of "use pie plates" much less effective than it would appear.

This guy managed to counter quite effectively, follow his lead next time you play against decurion!

 Vaktathi wrote:
by killing the entire unit in one phase the way it used to work

Vak I respect your analysis but I think you are still looking at this the wrong way. You are not supposed to win over the course of one shooting phase. Necrons are supposed to force a grinding war of attrition over 6-7 turns.

We need to start getting away from the idea that 40k dogmatically revolves around single turn shooting damage erasing units. Let's look at the issues with movement, damage mitigation, and assault/counter-assault. There is no common "hard counter" in the sense of erasing them for the board in one phase. But if the 6x4 board is often too small to allow us to play a defensive withdrawal to pick apart the advancing horde, there may still be a problem.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Thematically, that's how it's supposed to work.

Thematically, Terminators aren't supposed to die to every sixth Las pistol shot. Many Chaos Marines are supposed to have the same equipment and training as regular Space Marines. Etc etc.

You can talk about theme all you want but at the end of the day a game needs to have balance and be fun for everyone. An unkillable army that can damage anything it attacks and has plenty of support from under priced, equally unkillable fast movers is neither balanced nor fun to play against.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
by killing the entire unit in one phase the way it used to work

Vak I respect your analysis but I think you are still looking at this the wrong way. You are not supposed to win over the course of one shooting phase. Necrons are supposed to force a grinding war of attrition over 6-7 turns.

The problem is that this isn't really how they work. Essentially, if the army opposing the Necrons doesn't break them in the first turn or two, the game is pretty much over because the Necrons will be in optimal shooting range, their reserves will have arrived, and their CC units will be getting stuck in after that, and you won't have the ability to grind anything down effectively from then on. Almost every game I've seen with the Necrons was clearly decided by the time the third or fourth turn rolled around. They're not an army that drags out to turn 6 or 7 (notwithstanding that the game can end on turn 5), they're an army that usually breaks an opponent fairly decisively turns 2-4.

We need to start getting away from the idea that 40k dogmatically revolves around single turn shooting damage erasing units. Let's look at the issues with movement, damage mitigation, and assault/counter-assault. There is no common "hard counter" in the sense of erasing them for the board in one phase. But if the 6x4 board is often too small to allow us to play a defensive withdrawal to pick apart the advancing horde, there may still be a problem.

There generally isn't room to play a defensive withdrawal, especially in a typical deployment. The other issue is that Necrons do not lack for speed, they've still got some of the best flyers (and probably the best Flyer transport) in the game, some of the fastest and best assault units in the game, a good chunk of Deep Strike capability, Jetbikes, and lots of Relentless. They're not a slow, plodding, methodical army at all, they really are very fast.

Damage mitigation against a Necron army is much more limited next to say something like, IG. Necrons generally rely on simple volume of fire/attacks where most mitigation like armor and cover saves comes into full play, but is simply overwhelmed through numbers (unlike say, IG pie-plates where scatter, spread, and cover still play a huge role, or armies that mass AP2 where cover and limited availability can vastly mitigate its effectiveness). High T and high AV are of limited usefulness due to Gauss. With lots of Fearless/LD10, most Necron units also are fairly hard/impossible to break and function very well as tarpits and Relentless often means your assault units are getting pre-emptively stuck in before they can get off their sweet charge bonuses.

I'm really not trying to just be a debbie-downer chicken little, I'm just not seeing anything that's really going to be consistently effective, especially in a general TAC list.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
by killing the entire unit in one phase the way it used to work

Vak I respect your analysis but I think you are still looking at this the wrong way. You are not supposed to win over the course of one shooting phase. Necrons are supposed to force a grinding war of attrition over 6-7 turns.

We need to start getting away from the idea that 40k dogmatically revolves around single turn shooting damage erasing units. Let's look at the issues with movement, damage mitigation, and assault/counter-assault. There is no common "hard counter" in the sense of erasing them for the board in one phase. But if the 6x4 board is often too small to allow us to play a defensive withdrawal to pick apart the advancing horde, there may still be a problem.

But how does that make sense when necron standard fire is exactly the same as everyone elses. in a war of attrition necron will ALWAYS win if stats across the board are exactly the same except when defense is +1.

And lets not forget the humble ghost ark. flipin av13 that can barrel roll and poop out replacements for broken warriors. saw a fight with ghostark warrior spam vs WS spam the king of pure damage. and the necron player didnt even lose 1 model (except 1 ghost ark IIRC.)

 Desubot wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
by killing the entire unit in one phase the way it used to work

Vak I respect your analysis but I think you are still looking at this the wrong way. You are not supposed to win over the course of one shooting phase. Necrons are supposed to force a grinding war of attrition over 6-7 turns.

We need to start getting away from the idea that 40k dogmatically revolves around single turn shooting damage erasing units. Let's look at the issues with movement, damage mitigation, and assault/counter-assault. There is no common "hard counter" in the sense of erasing them for the board in one phase. But if the 6x4 board is often too small to allow us to play a defensive withdrawal to pick apart the advancing horde, there may still be a problem.

But how does that make sense when necron standard fire is exactly the same as everyone elses. in a war of attrition necron will ALWAYS win if stats across the board are exactly the same except when defense is +1.

And lets not forget the humble ghost ark. flipin av13 that can barrel roll and poop out replacements for broken warriors. saw a fight with ghostark warrior spam vs WS spam the king of pure damage. and the necron player didnt even lose 1 model (except 1 ghost ark IIRC.)

Are you comparing ten warriors + ghost ark versus a falcon? Because that outcome is pretty obvious.
Considering that 13 only lasts only the first pen, a WS will ALWAYS win over a Ghost Ark, particularly given it can fire at what, double the range?

Ferros wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
by killing the entire unit in one phase the way it used to work

Vak I respect your analysis but I think you are still looking at this the wrong way. You are not supposed to win over the course of one shooting phase. Necrons are supposed to force a grinding war of attrition over 6-7 turns.

We need to start getting away from the idea that 40k dogmatically revolves around single turn shooting damage erasing units. Let's look at the issues with movement, damage mitigation, and assault/counter-assault. There is no common "hard counter" in the sense of erasing them for the board in one phase. But if the 6x4 board is often too small to allow us to play a defensive withdrawal to pick apart the advancing horde, there may still be a problem.

But how does that make sense when necron standard fire is exactly the same as everyone elses. in a war of attrition necron will ALWAYS win if stats across the board are exactly the same except when defense is +1.

And lets not forget the humble ghost ark. flipin av13 that can barrel roll and poop out replacements for broken warriors. saw a fight with ghostark warrior spam vs WS spam the king of pure damage. and the necron player didnt even lose 1 model (except 1 ghost ark IIRC.)

Are you comparing ten warriors + ghost ark versus a falcon? Because that outcome is pretty obvious.
Considering that 13 only lasts only the first pen, a WS will ALWAYS win over a Ghost Ark, particularly given it can fire at what, double the range?

You're talking two different tanks here, the Falcon and Wave Serpent. The Wave Serpent is almost always kitted with a scatterlaser, 99% of the time.

In such a configuration, it excels against most targets, but is completely unable to penetrate a Ghost Ark, making that point moot, it's strongest attack is S7, which can only glance on 6's while the other weapons do nothing. The Ghost Ark will never lose that AV13 against a Wave Serpent the way 99% of them are kitted.

Even if ti's carrying a Bright Lance however (and reducing that shield to AV12), it's still going to need 7 shots to average that one penetration if the Ghost Ark is jinking.

Meanwhile, the Falcon has an S8 weapon that gets two shots, but isn't Lance, and takes a dedicated HS slot and nobody uses them when they can just take Wave Serpents.

." Of course it's easy to flank knights when there aren't buildings to get in the way of your ghost arks...

This Works both ways though.

If there is enough room for the ghost ark to stop on top of a building, then there is no way for your knight to get it in close combat. Enough terrain may also mean that the ghost arks wouldn't need to jink, and may actually be getting a 3+ cover save (and cover saves are the ultimate protection from knight shooting). Destroyers may be able to JSJ you with no risk to themselves.

Speaking of which, destroyers are not as bad as you think at stripping armour.
Whilst 3 warriors (the equivalent points) are better at rapid fire range, a destroyer (with preferred enemy, and re-rolls on armour pens) is actually better at mid range.

3 warriors at 13-24: 0.333 HP
A destroyer at 0-24: 0.475 HP
3 warriors at rapid fire range: 0.666 HP

Adamantine lance is good vs almost all armies. But are you really suggesting it is a hard counter to an army where practically every single gun can harm a knight?

 Vaktathi wrote:

Ferros wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
by killing the entire unit in one phase the way it used to work

Vak I respect your analysis but I think you are still looking at this the wrong way. You are not supposed to win over the course of one shooting phase. Necrons are supposed to force a grinding war of attrition over 6-7 turns.

We need to start getting away from the idea that 40k dogmatically revolves around single turn shooting damage erasing units. Let's look at the issues with movement, damage mitigation, and assault/counter-assault. There is no common "hard counter" in the sense of erasing them for the board in one phase. But if the 6x4 board is often too small to allow us to play a defensive withdrawal to pick apart the advancing horde, there may still be a problem.

But how does that make sense when necron standard fire is exactly the same as everyone elses. in a war of attrition necron will ALWAYS win if stats across the board are exactly the same except when defense is +1.

And lets not forget the humble ghost ark. flipin av13 that can barrel roll and poop out replacements for broken warriors. saw a fight with ghostark warrior spam vs WS spam the king of pure damage. and the necron player didnt even lose 1 model (except 1 ghost ark IIRC.)

Are you comparing ten warriors + ghost ark versus a falcon? Because that outcome is pretty obvious.
Considering that 13 only lasts only the first pen, a WS will ALWAYS win over a Ghost Ark, particularly given it can fire at what, double the range?

You're talking two different tanks here, the Falcon and Wave Serpent. The Wave Serpent is almost always kitted with a scatterlaser, 99% of the time.

In such a configuration, it excels against most targets, but is completely unable to penetrate a Ghost Ark, making that point moot, it's strongest attack is S7, which can only glance on 6's while the other weapons do nothing. The Ghost Ark will never lose that AV13 against a Wave Serpent the way 99% of them are kitted.

Even if ti's carrying a Bright Lance however (and reducing that shield to AV12), it's still going to need 7 shots to average that one penetration if the Ghost Ark is jinking.

Meanwhile, the Falcon has an S8 weapon that gets two shots, but isn't Lance, and takes a dedicated HS slot and nobody uses them when they can just take Wave Serpents.

My brain definitely hiccup'd, thank you for catching that and explaining. :]

Yeah, they're very similar vehicles, you just never see the Falcon anymore

From what I've picked up by checking out Necron tactics threads, most of their power comes really down to three units, which are Tomb Blades, Destroyers, and Wraiths. All of these have been cruising through conventional lists for easy wins because there's not an established counter. Often what occurs, these units jump into the backfield on turn 2-3 and opposing players simply crumble given the destruction/disruption of a few key units. They're not surviving to the late game, at least not in any effective capacity. The Warriors are really more of a clean-up crew.

Orks seem to have done ok on occasion because they don't present great targets (like a 200+ point AM command tank) and have the speed and saturation to get into assault against faster units. They're not shooting them off the table so maybe there's a lesson to be learned somewhere?

These things need to be worked out on the tabletop but right now "force protection" seems to be the big issue. Necrons are getting way too much traction in the early game.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
My Wraiths fear S10 weapons and massive small arms fire.
The latter they can avoided as they are fast enough to pick their target.
The S10 problem (e.g. Manticore, DK, and WK) can be hard to counter as a Necron player.

They should be practically immune to small arms fire. A single Wraith, without RP, should require an average of 27 BS4 Bolter shots to take down. A unit of 6 in a Harvest formation within a Decurion will require an average of 324 BS4 Bolter shots, or 864 BS3 Lasgun shots. They're one of the most small-arms resistant units in the game.

Even S10, with that 3++ save, they're falling a lot less than something like TWC's typically (especially for their base cost), and if they're getting Decurion 4+ RP (downgraded to 5+), you're needing an average of 5.4 S10 hits to kill a single Wraith.

Indeed, the math has changed in favor of the Wraiths, thanks to T5 and 4+/5+ FnP.
In my recent game vs. Eldar, one of my Wraith units got stuck against a WK in cc.
There was no coming out before the battle has ended.

Ferros wrote:

Are you comparing ten warriors + ghost ark versus a falcon? Because that outcome is pretty obvious.
Considering that 13 only lasts only the first pen, a WS will ALWAYS win over a Ghost Ark, particularly given it can fire at what, double the range?

Was gonna say where in the feth did i say anything about falcons? then saw next post

Yoyoyo wrote:
From what I've picked up by checking out Necron tactics threads, most of their power comes really down to three units, which are Tomb Blades, Destroyers, and Wraiths. All of these have been cruising through conventional lists for easy wins because there's not an established counter. Often what occurs, these units jump into the backfield on turn 2-3 and opposing players simply crumble given the destruction/disruption of a few key units. They're not surviving to the late game, at least not in any effective capacity. The Warriors are really more of a clean-up crew.

Orks seem to have done ok on occasion because they don't present great targets (like a 200+ point AM command tank) and have the speed and saturation to get into assault against faster units. They're not shooting them off the table so maybe there's a lesson to be learned somewhere?

These things need to be worked out on the tabletop but right now "force protection" seems to be the big issue. Necrons are getting way too much traction in the early game.

I don't know how Tomb Blades have been doing any real damage. They're great against specific targets, but the same as immortals against Tanks and MEQs. And I don't know who you've seen, but my Destroyers have always survived until late game, and can usually easily take objectives.

Tomb blades are great because they are cheap, fast, durable and have ignores cover. They are rightly considered to be one of the best units in the book.

Consider that their durability is 2x that of a SM bike, for the same cost, and that ignores cover on guns which are ap4 and gauss make them highly effective against some of the tougher units that other armies might struggle with.

It's just a shame how derpy the model is.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Tomb blades are great because they are cheap, fast, durable and have ignores cover. They are rightly considered to be one of the best units in the book.

Consider that their durability is 2x that of a SM bike, for the same cost, and that ignores cover on guns which are ap4 and gauss make them highly effective against some of the tougher units that other armies might struggle with.

It's just a shame how derpy the model is.

It's one of the best FA units in the game.
I use a unit of six with particle casters.
They have a decent damage output and are very durable in a decursion.

 krodarklorr wrote:


This post is why Space Marines need a new codex this year.

It should be released, and Issodon will still function the same as he isn't affected by a Space Marines Codex much, if at all, since he is FW. So I'll continue to instadelete those no skill requiring Reclamation Legions you can just push forward to win for years to come.

Next to that, it's merely justice that there are a few ways to destroy them, just like there is for everything else. Nothing less, nothing more.

 krodarklorr wrote:
I don't know how Tomb Blades have been doing any real damage. They're great against specific targets...

That's enough to be very useful. Their threat draws fire and their durability dilutes a shooting army's real offensive output. Shooting Tomb Blades is a terribly ineffective response, but not many lists can catch them in assault, keep them out of 12" with a screen or afford to let their damage go uncontested. Destroyers are the same -- they will do terrible damage against expensive mech units, their mobility makes them hard to lock down, and shooting isn't hitting them at their weak point. Drop them into cover and they're nearly as durable as Tomb Blades, their 24" range makes them much less suicidal than your average DS Melta squad.

So unless players have a lot of fast assault units with the saturation to lock down Destroyers and Tomb Blades in melee, or at least shepherd them away from their targets, opponents end up on the defensive and cannot focus on thinning out Warriors across the board. Wraiths are more or less the same. As they're fast and ignore movement constraints, they stand a good chance of slamming into a soft target without being intercepted. Meanwhile trying to crush them with a counter-assault unit risks sinking points into a tarpit.

I've seen a lot of RTS cheese over the years and many players gravitate to simple strategies that are easier to execute than counter. Tower rushing is a good example -- it drives newbies crazy because the solution is counterintuitive and difficult. Then again, RTS games are competitively balanced, players can dynamically adjust their tools through scouting and unit production, and it's easier to push through a learning curve due to the higher volume of games.

Necrons aren't just strong just due to their units, they're strong because they are meta breaking in a "shooting edition". Players lack the right tools at the table. Necrons *do* require tailoring. I like that to an extent because it gives different units and weapons a chance to shine. On the other hand, it's just more asinine "Rock-Paper-Scissors" frustration for people who can't. Even Necron players recognize this, not everyone wants an easy win from a list mismatch. Given the abandonment of the FOC, and the TAC list that isn't, I wonder if 40k wouldn't be better served by some dynamic drafting system to set up games. That way when one player chooses a 500pt formation to spam bonuses, or starts loading up on AV14 or FMCs, a conventional CAD player sees a very clear red flag to be able to tailor a counter effectively.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


This post is why Space Marines need a new codex this year.

It should be released, and Issodon will still function the same as he isn't affected by a Space Marines Codex much, if at all, since he is FW. So I'll continue to instadelete those no skill requiring Reclamation Legions you can just push forward to win for years to come.

Next to that, it's merely justice that there are a few ways to destroy them, just like there is for everything else. Nothing less, nothing more.

Well luckily I don't play against people who use Forgeworld models. I think this game is better off without point'n click units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I don't know how Tomb Blades have been doing any real damage. They're great against specific targets...

That's enough to be very useful. Their threat draws fire and their durability dilutes a shooting army's real offensive output. Shooting Tomb Blades is a terribly ineffective response, but not many lists can catch them in assault, keep them out of 12" with a screen or afford to let their damage go uncontested. Destroyers are the same -- they will do terrible damage against expensive mech units, their mobility makes them hard to lock down, and shooting isn't hitting them at their weak point. Drop them into cover and they're nearly as durable as Tomb Blades, their 24" range makes them much less suicidal than your average DS Melta squad.

So unless players have a lot of fast assault units with the saturation to lock down Destroyers and Tomb Blades in melee, or at least shepherd them away from their targets, opponents end up on the defensive and cannot focus on thinning out Warriors across the board. Wraiths are more or less the same. As they're fast and ignore movement constraints, they stand a good chance of slamming into a soft target without being intercepted. Meanwhile trying to crush them with a counter-assault unit risks sinking points into a tarpit.

I've seen a lot of RTS cheese over the years and many players gravitate to simple strategies that are easier to execute than counter. Tower rushing is a good example -- it drives newbies crazy because the solution is counterintuitive and difficult. Then again, RTS games are competitively balanced, players can dynamically adjust their tools through scouting and unit production, and it's easier to push through a learning curve due to the higher volume of games.

Necrons aren't just strong just due to their units, they're strong because they are meta breaking in a "shooting edition". Players lack the right tools at the table. Necrons *do* require tailoring. I like that to an extent because it gives different units and weapons a chance to shine. On the other hand, it's just more asinine "Rock-Paper-Scissors" frustration for people who can't. Even Necron players recognize this, not everyone wants an easy win from a list mismatch. Given the abandonment of the FOC, and the TAC list that isn't, I wonder if 40k wouldn't be better served by some dynamic drafting system to set up games. That way when one player chooses a 500pt formation to spam bonuses, or starts loading up on AV14 or FMCs, a conventional CAD player sees a very clear red flag to be able to tailor a counter effectively.

Well, there was a lot of talking about "sideboards" before 7th edition came out. I think that would be the best thing to do in a tournament situation. Have up to 500 points or so of a sideboard to swap out based on who you're fighting and such.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


This post is why Space Marines need a new codex this year.

It should be released, and Issodon will still function the same as he isn't affected by a Space Marines Codex much, if at all, since he is FW. So I'll continue to instadelete those no skill requiring Reclamation Legions you can just push forward to win for years to come.

Next to that, it's merely justice that there are a few ways to destroy them, just like there is for everything else. Nothing less, nothing more.

I'd rather play Necrons than FW crap. Winning at 40k shouldn't be who can spend the most.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


This post is why Space Marines need a new codex this year.

It should be released, and Issodon will still function the same as he isn't affected by a Space Marines Codex much, if at all, since he is FW. So I'll continue to instadelete those no skill requiring Reclamation Legions you can just push forward to win for years to come.

Next to that, it's merely justice that there are a few ways to destroy them, just like there is for everything else. Nothing less, nothing more.

Well luckily I don't play against people who use Forgeworld models. I think this game is better off without point'n click units.

By far the most consistently powerful things in the game are from normal GW books, not FW, and that's backed up pretty consistently by tournament results. Issodon is far from the most powerful SM character out there too, certainly nothing on par with the point-click usage of say, Tigurius or Lysander. Certainly there isn't much FW stuff that's as point-click as something like Wraiths.

As an aside, the itc results for 7 tournaments are currently up.

Out of those, necrons are close to top in 5 of them. (Specifically, 3 2nd places, a 4th, and a 5th.)

Out of all 7, the two tourneys where the best cron player was way down in the pack brings their average placement to 6th.(5.8 or so.)

Eldar top placement is only about 5.2, so closer to 5th on average, for comparison.

That seems pretty competitive to me.

niv-mizzet wrote:
As an aside, the itc results for 7 tournaments are currently up.

Out of those, necrons are close to top in 5 of them. (Specifically, 3 2nd places, a 4th, and a 5th.)

Out of all 7, the two tourneys where the best cron player was way down in the pack brings their average placement to 6th.(5.8 or so.)

Eldar top placement is only about 5.2, so closer to 5th on average, for comparison.

That seems pretty competitive to me.

Now just imagine when Space Marines and Eldar get updated codexes this year.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


This post is why Space Marines need a new codex this year.

It should be released, and Issodon will still function the same as he isn't affected by a Space Marines Codex much, if at all, since he is FW. So I'll continue to instadelete those no skill requiring Reclamation Legions you can just push forward to win for years to come.

Next to that, it's merely justice that there are a few ways to destroy them, just like there is for everything else. Nothing less, nothing more.

I'd rather play Necrons than FW crap. Winning at 40k shouldn't be who can spend the most.

Like a single infantry sized model costs a lot.

Next to that, asfar as I'm concerned not allowing FW is a reminiscent from 10 years ago. Infact, FW is good for the game in part, since crappy armies like DA and CSM can get something worthwhile going for them. As a sidenote, like mentioned above, the most broken things are from GW codices, not FW. Perhaps you lack the experience of playing against FW extensively and hence the knowledge about this matter.

And the sad truth in the end is, that Warhammer 40,000 is, infact, quite a bit about who can spend the most. Someone buying Dark Vengeance boxes in bulk will never dominate the tournament player with the best tools. In a casual setting it's a different story, as people often play low powered lists on purpose ( personally I think making a powerful list doesn't actually take too much skill. Anyone with half decent knowledge of the game can create one, or for the very least copypaste it from someone who can. )

But that's your opinion, which is just as valid as mine. Playing the Necrons as they currently are requires very little skill at all, I think it's perfectly fine there are ways to obliterate them with similiar ease as they obliterate certain armies. Their power comes from passive resilience which can be boosted further with Reclamation Legion and Canoptek Harvest among other things, and it requires no skill. It requires you to play Necrons.

And this thread was about a hard counter to Necrons. Some exist, and rightfully so. That is all.

9 vauls wrath d cannons? LOL.

 RunicFIN wrote:


But that's your opinion, which is just as valid as mine. Playing the Necrons as they currently are requires very little skill at all, I think it's perfectly fine there are ways to obliterate them with similiar ease as they obliterate certain armies. Their power comes from passive resilience which can be boosted further with Reclamation Legion and Canoptek Harvest among other things, and it requires no skill. It requires you to play Necrons.

And this thread was about a hard counter to Necrons. Some exist, and rightfully so. That is all.

I mean, one could say they require the same amount of skill as Eldar and Space Marines. Very little.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:


But that's your opinion, which is just as valid as mine. Playing the Necrons as they currently are requires very little skill at all, I think it's perfectly fine there are ways to obliterate them with similiar ease as they obliterate certain armies. Their power comes from passive resilience which can be boosted further with Reclamation Legion and Canoptek Harvest among other things, and it requires no skill. It requires you to play Necrons.

And this thread was about a hard counter to Necrons. Some exist, and rightfully so. That is all.

I mean, one could say they require the same amount of skill as Eldar and Space Marines. Very little.

I don't think that's a fair equivalency.

If you build a Necron list as the codex is designed for you to do so, you have one of the most powerful armies in the game with no clear weakness.

Eldar require very little more than that; almost every unit on its own is exceptionally good with few "bad" units or objectively bad combos, and the power builds just require using the biggest, baddest units in each category.

Marines require you use the ugliest models in the range, who by themselves are only mediocre combined with some FOC shenanagins to get two otherwise incompatible SCs into a single deathstar reliant on a broken base psychic power. The overwhelming majority of Marine armies don't have grav cents, Issodon or Tigurius, and are a big rad flag to see on the table. One army's deathstar option, no matter how good, is not equivalent to an army where any incarnation of the army is very powerful, if not exceptionally powerful lacking a clear counter or tactic to avoid losing horribly.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


This post is why Space Marines need a new codex this year.

It should be released, and Issodon will still function the same as he isn't affected by a Space Marines Codex much, if at all, since he is FW. So I'll continue to instadelete those no skill requiring Reclamation Legions you can just push forward to win for years to come.

Next to that, it's merely justice that there are a few ways to destroy them, just like there is for everything else. Nothing less, nothing more.

I'd rather play Necrons than FW crap. Winning at 40k shouldn't be who can spend the most.

Like a single infantry sized model costs a lot.

Next to that, asfar as I'm concerned not allowing FW is a reminiscent from 10 years ago. Infact, FW is good for the game in part, since crappy armies like DA and CSM can get something worthwhile going for them. As a sidenote, like mentioned above, the most broken things are from GW codices, not FW. Perhaps you lack the experience of playing against FW extensively and hence the knowledge about this matter.

And the sad truth in the end is, that Warhammer 40,000 is, infact, quite a bit about who can spend the most. Someone buying Dark Vengeance boxes in bulk will never dominate the tournament player with the best tools. In a casual setting it's a different story, as people often play low powered lists on purpose ( personally I think making a powerful list doesn't actually take too much skill. Anyone with half decent knowledge of the game can create one, or for the very least copypaste it from someone who can. )

But that's your opinion, which is just as valid as mine. Playing the Necrons as they currently are requires very little skill at all, I think it's perfectly fine there are ways to obliterate them with similiar ease as they obliterate certain armies. Their power comes from passive resilience which can be boosted further with Reclamation Legion and Canoptek Harvest among other things, and it requires no skill. It requires you to play Necrons.

And this thread was about a hard counter to Necrons. Some exist, and rightfully so. That is all.

What's the going rate on a Fire Raptor, nigh one of the most useful units for DA? How about a reaver titan? Most armies don't need FW to be competitive, and if you need FW to beat another army, that sounds like terrible design.

Outside of FW, 40k isn't really about who can spend the most, as most things can be bought secondhand for 25-50% off retail.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


This post is why Space Marines need a new codex this year.

It should be released, and Issodon will still function the same as he isn't affected by a Space Marines Codex much, if at all, since he is FW. So I'll continue to instadelete those no skill requiring Reclamation Legions you can just push forward to win for years to come.

Next to that, it's merely justice that there are a few ways to destroy them, just like there is for everything else. Nothing less, nothing more.

I'd rather play Necrons than FW crap. Winning at 40k shouldn't be who can spend the most.

Like a single infantry sized model costs a lot.

Next to that, asfar as I'm concerned not allowing FW is a reminiscent from 10 years ago. Infact, FW is good for the game in part, since crappy armies like DA and CSM can get something worthwhile going for them. As a sidenote, like mentioned above, the most broken things are from GW codices, not FW. Perhaps you lack the experience of playing against FW extensively and hence the knowledge about this matter.

And the sad truth in the end is, that Warhammer 40,000 is, infact, quite a bit about who can spend the most. Someone buying Dark Vengeance boxes in bulk will never dominate the tournament player with the best tools. In a casual setting it's a different story, as people often play low powered lists on purpose ( personally I think making a powerful list doesn't actually take too much skill. Anyone with half decent knowledge of the game can create one, or for the very least copypaste it from someone who can. )

But that's your opinion, which is just as valid as mine. Playing the Necrons as they currently are requires very little skill at all, I think it's perfectly fine there are ways to obliterate them with similiar ease as they obliterate certain armies. Their power comes from passive resilience which can be boosted further with Reclamation Legion and Canoptek Harvest among other things, and it requires no skill. It requires you to play Necrons.

And this thread was about a hard counter to Necrons. Some exist, and rightfully so. That is all.

What's the going rate on a Fire Raptor, nigh one of the most useful units for DA? How about a reaver titan? Most armies don't need FW to be competitive, and if you need FW to beat another army, that sounds like terrible design.

Outside of FW, 40k isn't really about who can spend the most, as most things can be bought secondhand for 25-50% off retail.

Things can only be bought secondhand once people decide to sell them. The guys running O'Vesa star were doing so when the Riptide had just come out...finding used Riptides wasn't exactly easy. That's just one example.

40k is an exercise in "keeping up with the Joneses" and the more money you throw at the game, the more you can adapt your army to fit the evolving meta (i.e., buy the most powerful units and armies as new codices are released).

It's not about buying minis secondhand...the more you change up your collection, the more powerful your army will be, but the more expensive the game becomes.

 krodarklorr wrote:

I mean, one could say they require the same amount of skill as Eldar and Space Marines. Very little.

I get the Eldar part but not the Marines seriously speaking. Not in a tournament enviroment anyway.

Marines are a pain in the ass to win with barring a few specific builds. The Eldar, at least, can have a multitude of builds around the WS, because it's a transport, not a specific bad model using a broken psychic power.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


Things can only be bought secondhand once people decide to sell them. The guys running O'Vesa star were doing so when the Riptide had just come out...finding used Riptides wasn't exactly easy. That's just one example.

40k is an exercise in "keeping up with the Joneses" and the more money you throw at the game, the more you can adapt your army to fit the evolving meta (i.e., buy the most powerful units and armies as new codices are released).

It's not about buying minis secondhand...the more you change up your collection, the more powerful your army will be, but the more expensive the game becomes.

I can agree with that. I've invested a ton of money into this game (and fantasy), so I have a ton of options as far as what I can field and experiment with. Whereas my girlfriend has not, so typically can only field roughly the same lists, which kinda sucks sometimes.

Wraiths are hard to kill indeed. Whole armies are based around it.
I fielded 1 unit of them in a tournament and lost them only once to a knight exploding.
Still, i don't like them because they force me to take scarabs and, more importantly, a spider that CAN be targeted and killed which is needed to get a resurrection protocol for the wraiths.
So: If facing wraiths, kill the spider first. After that they have one 3+ save, so no big problem anymore.

Furthermore the obvious Necron downside of decurion slowliness and mid-range firepower can be exploited by many armies.

But IMO decurion Necron ARE an army now that can do reasonably well against anything. I like it, that's the way i want them to play.
But i would love it even more if Space Marine tacticals were this type of army as well. An army that does good enough against anything.

But the meta of the game has changed so much to the current broken type of units that an army like the Necron, average in everything but survivable, is a problem for many now.

To be honest I consider the scarabs more of a tax. I find them less desirable than rippers or nurglings.

Spyders are pretty great
50 points for a fearless T6, 3 wound, 3+ save MC with a 4+ FNP?

Tyrannid players would kill for a comparable MC.
For comparison, a base carnifex is less than 66% as durable as a decurion sypder, for 240% of the cost!

If the opponent wants to take down the spyder then I say let him, the thing is incredibly durable for its price.

It is indeed hard to take down the spyder, but that is not my point.

Taking down the spyder that gives the reanimation protocol to the formation is the only way to be able to put down the wraiths (except D-weapons).

And I too consider the scarabs a tax.

And IMO the spyder of the kanoptek formation is also a tax, because it is just 1 spyder that has "preferred target" written all over it. At least, if the opponent knows what he's doing.

Because i find wraiths good, but little fun to play (they are mainly good at surviving, not at assault) i will not field them anymore.

ORicK wrote:
It is indeed hard to take down the spyder, but that is not my point.

Taking down the spyder that gives the reanimation protocol to the formation is the only way to be able to put down the wraiths (except D-weapons).

And I too consider the scarabs a tax.

And IMO the spyder of the kanoptek formation is also a tax, because it is just 1 spyder that has "preferred target" written all over it. At least, if the opponent knows what he's doing.

Because i find wraiths good, but little fun to play (they are mainly good at surviving, not at assault) i will not field them anymore.

It may be a preferred target, but you still have to take it out. Any Necron player worth his salt will cover the Spyder in tons of Wraiths or keep it out of range/LoS.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

If the opponent wants to take down the spyder then I say let him, the thing is incredibly durable for its price.

Agreed. One of the best distraction carnifex units in the game. I like to park mine in ruins and let it soak up my opponents shooting phase. By the the time it is dead my wraiths are usually in melee or would be out of range anyway, so it has served its purpose.

the_hanged_man wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

If the opponent wants to take down the spyder then I say let him, the thing is incredibly durable for its price.

Agreed. One of the best distraction carnifex units in the game. I like to park mine in ruins and let it soak up my opponents shooting phase. By the the time it is dead my wraiths are usually in melee or would be out of range anyway, so it has served its purpose.

It's hardly a distraction - it is a unit that must die or you can't possibly win the game.

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_hanged_man wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

If the opponent wants to take down the spyder then I say let him, the thing is incredibly durable for its price.

Agreed. One of the best distraction carnifex units in the game. I like to park mine in ruins and let it soak up my opponents shooting phase. By the the time it is dead my wraiths are usually in melee or would be out of range anyway, so it has served its purpose.

It's hardly a distraction - it is a unit that must die or you can't possibly win the game.

Agreed. Scarabs aren't as deadly as they used to be, but Spyders can still pump out lots of those annoying guys.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_hanged_man wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

If the opponent wants to take down the spyder then I say let him, the thing is incredibly durable for its price.

Agreed. One of the best distraction carnifex units in the game. I like to park mine in ruins and let it soak up my opponents shooting phase. By the the time it is dead my wraiths are usually in melee or would be out of range anyway, so it has served its purpose.

It's hardly a distraction - it is a unit that must die or you can't possibly win the game.

Agreed. Scarabs aren't as deadly as they used to be, but Spyders can still pump out lots of those annoying guys.

I personally don't see the Scarabs as a tax. I feel the new Entropic Strike better helps them resemble what they actually do in fluff. Plus, they're an excellent tarpit unit.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_hanged_man wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

If the opponent wants to take down the spyder then I say let him, the thing is incredibly durable for its price.

Agreed. One of the best distraction carnifex units in the game. I like to park mine in ruins and let it soak up my opponents shooting phase. By the the time it is dead my wraiths are usually in melee or would be out of range anyway, so it has served its purpose.

It's hardly a distraction - it is a unit that must die or you can't possibly win the game.

Agreed. Scarabs aren't as deadly as they used to be, but Spyders can still pump out lots of those annoying guys.

I personally don't see the Scarabs as a tax. I feel the new Entropic Strike better helps them resemble what they actually do in fluff. Plus, they're an excellent tarpit unit.

I don't either. I don't think they're as strong as they used to be, but the Spyder can pump out enough of them to be a hassle.

 jreilly89 wrote:


I don't either. I don't think they're as strong as they used to be, but the Spyder can pump out enough of them to be a hassle.

That low profile also makes them decently good for objective holding in some cases

Using a mallet on the Wraith models?

 jreilly89 wrote:


I don't either. I don't think they're as strong as they used to be, but the Spyder can pump out enough of them to be a hassle.

Well, 1 per turn if in the Decurion. So, they'll die easily to Serpent shields or anything S6 that focuses them. But if they get somewhere, Lordy.

I don't consider anything in the harvest a tax. Spyder is so hard to kill that he can soak up almost an entire enemy shooting phase if he was advancing through some cover. Scarabs not only have very obvious synergy with a spyder, but can accomplish anything if they aren't killed. My last non-decurion necron opponent had a group of scarabs go around his table side cleaning up drop pods like janitor-bots, in a BAO style mission. He ended up getting maelstrom because anytime destroy a unit came up, he was always about to eat another drop pod.

And the wraiths are the obvious teeth to the set.

Seriously, I wish my army had a 50 point model that would soak up an entire shooting phase so my other 1800 would be unscathed on t1.

niv-mizzet wrote:
I don't consider anything in the harvest a tax. Spyder is so hard to kill that he can soak up almost an entire enemy shooting phase if he was advancing through some cover. Scarabs not only have very obvious synergy with a spyder, but can accomplish anything if they aren't killed. My last non-decurion necron opponent had a group of scarabs go around his table side cleaning up drop pods like janitor-bots, in a BAO style mission. He ended up getting maelstrom because anytime destroy a unit came up, he was always about to eat another drop pod.

And the wraiths are the obvious teeth to the set.

Seriously, I wish my army had a 50 point model that would soak up an entire shooting phase so my other 1800 would be unscathed on t1.

They're not that tough. If they keep them back in cover, then it's harder for them to spread out the RP buff, which is why everyone want's them dead in the first place.

The harvest is good for it's points, no argue there, and above all the spyder for 50 points.
But it's not unkillable, at least not with the armies i play.

And when i play Necron i find the harvest not that intesting to field. Not because it is not good, but because it is predictable.
The units have to stay close to the spyder to get the most out of them and i like to have more freedom with my units.

ORicK wrote:
The harvest is good for it's points, no argue there, and above all the spyder for 50 points.
But it's not unkillable, at least not with the armies i play.

And when i play Necron i find the harvest not that intesting to field. Not because it is not good, but because it is predictable.
The units have to stay close to the spyder to get the most out of them and i like to have more freedom with my units.

This is exactly why I've only played the harvest once. There are so many more less-restrictive formations with just as good units.

If you are running a Decurion and a CAD, can the Spyders from the CAD add Scarabs to the Decurion, thus giving them the special rule from the Decurion Spyder?

 Suicidal.Simian wrote:
If you are running a Decurion and a CAD, can the Spyders from the CAD add Scarabs to the Decurion, thus giving them the special rule from the Decurion Spyder?

I don't see why not. They are a friendly unit of scarabs.

 Suicidal.Simian wrote:
If you are running a Decurion and a CAD, can the Spyders from the CAD add Scarabs to the Decurion, thus giving them the special rule from the Decurion Spyder?

I have a 2000 point list that is based around that.
Decurion + Canoptek Swarm + CAD (9 Spyders)

The Canoptek Swam's Sypder has yet to live past turn 4.

Player usually obsess with removing him, which works out to my advantage, since anything they direct at it isn't attacking the rest of my army.

The Canoptek Swam's Sypder has yet to live past turn 4.

Player usually obsess with removing him, which works out to my advantage, since anything they direct at it isn't attacking the rest of my army.

Oh no! My 50 pt model has been removed after 4 turns of focus fire, how tragic!

If you want to really get cheesy, (not sure on the points), You can add zahndrek to the scarab swarm, (with 20 models, he wont even slow them down), And place an Allied Buffmander within 12", for tank hunters.
Because overkill is underrated .

Other than that, I'm interested in seeing how the scarab farm preforms, It seems great on paper, almost too good to be true, I'm waiting for some glaring flaw to come across when it hits the table.

harkequin wrote:

Other than that, I'm interested in seeing how the scarab farm preforms, It seems great on paper, almost too good to be true, I'm waiting for some glaring flaw to come across when it hits the table.

It can be slow to play, requires a gak ton of models, they hit on 5's, often only wound on 6, and you have to listen to bellyaching of your opponents when you have 50-60 bases of them on the board, and the Spyders alone MSRP $330 for 500 points worth of the list.

If I had to play it with a 2 hour time limit, I don't think I could get through an entire game.

It's vulverable to large volumes of fire and blast marker heavy forces, both of which are scarce in the age of MSU.
Anyone who tries to defeat them in assualt is doing you a favor.

I think Astra Militarum with lots of cheap troops and Lemun Russ battle tanks could cripple it before it got off the ground, but that kind of army is absent in the local meta.

IG Manticores killed my Decurion pretty fast last week. But I didn't have Crypteks with them cause I didn't take Command.

 KiloFiX wrote:
IG Manticores killed my Decurion pretty fast last week. But I didn't have Crypteks with them cause I didn't take Command.

Take flyers to remove the Manticores asap.

I had the same thought as Rezolut and have a strong hunch that he is right. This would explain a lot.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:
IG Manticores killed my Decurion pretty fast last week. But I didn't have Crypteks with them cause I didn't take Command.

Take flyers to remove the Manticores asap.

I already got hit quite badly in the first Turn before flyers would have come in. It was partially luck but anyway the point is that Decurion isn't invincible. Also, Autocannons with Ignores Cover killed my Tomb Blades (I should have taken Vanes in retrospect of course).

 KiloFiX wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 KiloFiX wrote:
IG Manticores killed my Decurion pretty fast last week. But I didn't have Crypteks with them cause I didn't take Command.

Take flyers to remove the Manticores asap.

I already got hit quite badly in the first Turn before flyers would have come in. It was partially luck but anyway the point is that Decurion isn't invincible. Also, Autocannons with Ignores Cover killed my Tomb Blades (I should have taken Vanes in retrospect of course).

Well, I battled a skimmer heavy Eldar army - three Serpents, two Prisms, WK, Jetbikers, Shining Spears, Autarch with jetbike, and Jetseer - with my Necron Decurion army.
The mission was the relic and at the end of the day I won it. Wraths are great and Necron troops are very hard to remove.
I felt a bit sorry for Eldar at the end.

I am new to the game and usually play in smaller point games but if you are having trouble with canoptek harvests make sure to kill the spyder first because it is what conveys the special rules

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARON wrote:
I am new to the game and usually play in smaller point games but if you are having trouble with canoptek harvests make sure to kill the spyder first because it is what conveys the special rules

Please dont reply to a year old thread:/

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