So on the other end of the Jetbike doom that shall visit us soon, I'm trying to compile a list of good units/equipment/weapons that will be direct counters to Jetbikes. Don't worry about survivability, just what will kill jetbikes most efficiently.

Obviously to know what will kill them, we'll need to see what they got going for them -

3+ armor, Toughness 4, 4+ Jink from shooting, 36' range (assuming scatter laser), 12 in movement, and very fast with their turboboost of 36'. and despite battle focus not really working, can still move 2d6 in assault phase after shooting (cause eldar), Any difficult terrain tests are dangerous terrain to jetbikes (means they take a wound on a 1 and can then try to save it on a 3+.) They are also ld8 naturally and can upgrade one guy to a warlock with psy mastery 1 (guide most likely) - gives 1 member a 4++

Interesting but not really part of this discussion is that they also have Bs4, WS4, Str 3, 1 attack, Initiative 5, hammer of wrath, and are not slowed by difficult terrain when charging. Falls back by 3d6 when failing morale. Has ancient doom rule too (hatred of slanesh and suffers -1 ldr if in combat with slanesh units). Cannot go to ground (not like it needs to) and cannot be pinned.


So... to sum it up, we're looking for ways to kill a unit at 36'-48' range generally that is T4, 3+ armor, 4+ cover all the time at will, and probably has a single 4++ character in it.

A few units come to mind -

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IOM -
Imperial Bombard/colossus heavy seige mortar - str 8-6, AP3, ignore cover, long range, large blast (I believe they changed the strength in the recent Vraks book but I don't have that one yet)
Hellhammer cannon (on various chassis LoW) - 36' str 10, AP1, ignores cover 10' blast
Divination inquisitor or librarian with perfect timing + plasma cannon servitors or plasma cannon devastators
Legion of the dammed with plasma cannons (they ignore cover) or plasma guns deep striking.
Earthshaker artillery battery - 120' range, str 9, AP3, attach a psyker with perfect timing will give them the ignore cover. Also can use Krieg order set for ignore cover (Krieg armored assault, the seige company does not have this order*credit AnmanderRake*
Typhon seige tank - 48' demolisher cannon (ap2) with 7' blast and ignores cover if it doesn't move *credit AnomanderRake*
Scorpius missile system + battle of keylek (see appendix for all the legacies of war - Imperial armour vol 2, second edition) for d3+1 str 8AP3 ignore cover blasts at 48' range *credit AnmanderRake*
Malcador Infernus (LoW) - str 7, ap3 hellstorm template (6' move + 18' torrent +16' template = 40' threat range - IA1 second edition) *credit KiloFix*
Fellblade with battle of keylek (LoW) 7" TL S7AP3 blast will comfortably toast an entire squad at once, while the Quad-Lascannons can fire reasonably effectively against flyers/Wraith monsters, and the Demolisher cannon is the bane of Wraithguard. The main gun can also fire a S9AP2 Armourbane round to get rid of pesky things like Fire Prisms & Wave Serpents. Also, as a Super-Heavy, it moves 12", so can at least keep pace with the Jetbikes unless they elect not to shoot, can outrange almost all of the ranged D in the codex, and is tough enough to not be a guaranteed corpse if it is caught by a Distortion volley. It can also do all of the above at once *credit IHateNids*
Deredeo with hellfire plasma cannonade - 36' large blast or heavy 4 plasma cannon (str 7, AP2). Can take battle of keylek to give it ignore cover on the blast option. Also has heavy bolter chest mount as a bonus and can have an additional aiolos missle launcher and if it doesn't move, can get helical targeting array. (skyfire and interceptor) *credit Mavnas*

Runner ups -

By drop pod/deep strike options:

drop pod sternguard with perfect timing and vengance rounds or at least an auspex (pushed down to runner up section as their mobility makes them only really being able to get to one maybe 2 units of bikes)
drop pod Psychic shriek also would be effective *credit Jimsolo* *also credit to AnomanderRake* - adds that any army with psy shriek - added entries to the ones that can deliver said power effectively
drop pod devestator centurion with grav cannons and hurricane bolters - averages 6 dead bikes even with jink *credit ansacs*
drop pod space wolf rune priest with plasma + biomancy primaris with helm of durfast for ignore cover shooting with str7 Ap2 and apparently the relic helmet also confers the ignore cover to the witchfire shooting attack too *credit to Mavnas* - drop pod units lack mobility usually to keep up the pressure so only rated in the runner up category
callidus assasin with neuroshredder vs ld8
Drop pod Fragioso dreads. Use with heavy flamers to get some 3-4 hits per dread at least. str 6 so 2's to wound and has chance to rending. Can also force them to run away afterwards or risk getting charged. *credit th3mainblak*

IG heavy weapons crews with missile launchers and lascannons with ignore cover order - really low shots to make it worth it but can get a few kills *credit KiloFix*
deep striking or by grav chute - hotshot volley guns (ap3, str 3) with ignore cover orders or perfect timing though will need to have orders character available at the desired range too. dropping in with a command squad with 4 plasma guns would work too to give the order to themselves (either allied pod/valk/vendetta*credit KiloFix and ansacs*


By other template/blast ideas:

flamestorm cannon (on land raider or predator) - AP3, good str, and template to ignore cover but too slow and short ranged to get a hit in. Can also be mounted on a space marine Siege Dreadnought chassis that can be drop podded in so it's a viable deep strike option as well. (see imperial armour warmachines of the adeptus astartes - requires lucius pattern drop pod however) - *credit Leth*
GK heavy incinerators - good speed and torrent, high str, and ignores cover but still allows armor saves
Cerastus Knight-Acheron (LoW)- Acheron pattern flame cannon - 12' move + giant hellstorm template (16' long so max of 28' threat range unfortunately puts it into the runner up section at best -not torrent like the sonic lance at last check) at str 7, AP3 *credit AnmanderRake*
Volcano cannon (various platforms - thunderhawk / shadowsword LoW) - str D at range but limited number of shots/ targets hit as well as only ignore cover on a 6' to wound so only an honorable mention
Deathstrike missile - Apoc blast, str 10, AP1, ignores cover but won't be shooting it reliably and one shot *Credit Kilofix*


By high volume of fire options:

Thunderfire cannon (possibly on achilles land raider) - for just lots of ranged fire to pile on wounds
Battle cannons - high str, high range, AP3, but still allows cover save
Tyranic war vets with 6 infiltrated storm talons to just dump loads of firepower into things but doesn't really stop armor/cover
Blood angel turn 1 storm raven formation with huricane bolters + assault cannons or plasma cannons to get firepower on target but won't really ignore armor(for all shots)/cover *credit Martel732*
Avenger bolt cannon /punisher cannon - avenger strike fighter/ Fire Raptor/ Vulture gunship - tons of shots but does not ignore cover saves. Drown them in bullets and make them jink at least
vulcan megabolter (various chassis LoW) - str 6, AP3, 64' range, and 15 -30 shots to get past the cover saves (note: can split the fire if the stormlord tank that it's mounted on usually doesn't move -- at 2 seperate targets and average of 10 wounds through jink/cover which you can essentially split 5 and 5 between 2 units to force more jinks) bubble wrap to protect the stormlord from charges/ D templates, and have a DA character with power field generator to give it 4++. *credit Mavnas*
sciaran tank - 48' str 7, AP4, but ignores the jink cover save
Retributor sisters with rending heavy bolters - lots of shots but will be slowed down by armor/cover.
Rapier batteries with quad heavy bolters are in the same boat *credit Kremlin*
Dark angel ravenwing with banner of devestation (12' move +24' boltguns at salvo 2/4 from 6 bikes can kill 4 bikes) *credit ansacs*
Wyverns - to just force save numbers but won't make the enemy jink and can be vulnerable to return fire from side armors *credit triant308*
Dominous Triple Bombard - moving it will throw a ST 10 AP 3 large blast up to 36 inches, but standing still it'll throw a apocalyptic template (the clover) with 3 hits at a much greater range (60" max) same ST and AP. Might saturate the area enough to hopefully wipe out some bikes. *credit Engine of war*
Valkyrie bolter boat - HB sponsons + multi-laser + missle pods to just bullet hose things down. *credit Tau Tse Tung*

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Tau -
Markerlights + riptide ion accelerator - AP2, ignores cover, large blasts or hammerhead ion cannon works as well
Another IMO good counter for Tau is the Skyray. With markerlights (out of which the Skyray itself provides 2 network ML at BS 4) you can fire s8 ap3 Seeker Missiles at BS 5 with Ignore Cover (one missile per markerlight). Takes some six missiles to kill about 4.2 deadbikes, almost makimg the Skyray's points back (4 bikes are 108, skyray is 115) and forcing a Ld check. After the missiles are spent, Skyray still provides 2 markerlights and a SMS. *credit LordBlades*

Runner ups -

broadsides - high yield missiles will simply force wounds but won't ignore cover or armor saves
Crisis suits dropping in with plasma at rapid fire range with at least 4ML (to get ignore cover and bs5) will kill bikes fairly well. *credit Vector Strike* added - drop in a 7 man suit bomb with commander farsight and split fire can do some good damage *credit A Town Called Malus*
If you can get the XV109 Y'vahra in range, it might do ok. 6' move + 6' torrent +6' flamer only gets up to 18' however so it's not as effective as I'd like to fully make the list but I'll add it in. experimental rules- phased pasma-flamer - single canister - torrent (this one is 6' only) and is str6, ap 3, heavy 1 or str 6 AP2 heavy 2 (gets hot). It's also got a 12' str 8, AP3 heavy 3 blind/haywire burst ionic discharge cannon. *credit Co'tor Shas*
The XV107 R’varna might be useful as well. It has two large blasts at 60", and will hit bikes twice at S7 for each model under the blast. Assuming 3-4 bikes under each blast, that could mean something like 16 hits a turn from each one. That would mean 4.4 dead bikes are turn as I make it out, not the best, but better than nothing. *credit Co'tor Shas*


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Necrons - Tessract vault (LoW)- lots of long range low AP, high str weapons in there with some ignores cover powers

Runner ups -
tomb blades - str 6, ignores cover but doesn't stop the armor save
night scythes - can get in range and decent number of high str shots but does not ignore armor or cover
Deepstriking destroyers with preferred enemy and AP3, but doesn't ignore cover *credit Drakmord*
Doomsday Ark - 72, high str/lowAP but doesn't ignore cover. only single large blast so not many wounds but can force jinks potentially. *credit Drakmord*
Oblisk - 24' str 7 guns heavy 5 and you might have some folks argue over the firing arcs but it can deep strike, is AV 14 all around and has decent volume of fire. It also has 18' circle around it of where a jetbike moves through will suffer a dangerous terrain test. *credit Ferros*

Conclave of the Burning One is a Necron formation in the Shield of Baal: Exterminatus book.

You pair two crypteks (which can take any wargear options / artifacts as normal) with a C'Tan Shard (Nightbringer, obviously). The three become one unit, cannot seperate, and no other ICs can join the unit for the game.

The crypteks get to use the C'Tan's toughness though when determining to wound rolls. (T7 normally, T8 if one of the crypteks takes a god shackle, a 10pt upgrade). The crypteks also give the C'Tan a point of FNP each (5+ when both are alive),

This also allows the unit to DS, since you can give one of the crypteks the Veil of Darkness, and the other one can take the Solar Staff, which makes everything else snap shoot at the unit once per game.

Of course, they still only move 6" once they land, but they should wipe out a squad of bikes the turn they paradrop in. *credit Eggzavier*

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Orks - can't think of any direct counters to bypass armor +cover but some runner ups

Runner ups - lootas - high str and range but doesn't ignore the cover or armor save. Shove in battlewagon to keep 'em alive *credit to Pipealley*
supashooter + waaagh on dakkajet has good volume of str 6 fire, not ignoring armor/jink however.
Supa-gatler on the stompas have 48', str7, AP3, and 2d6 shots so possibly can deliver the firepower if you roll well. Poor rolling means your gun stops shooting all game lol
flashgitz in a fast truk or other fast vehicle - 12' move + 24' snazzguns can make a suicide attack vs some bikes if you are desperate *credit Dakkafang Dreggrim*
Lobbas will dump enough fire on clustered bikes to just force enough wounds to stop the bikes along with able to stand strong with T7 and cover which will help vs some wraithcannons *credit Koooaei*
Ork Weirdboy spam may work if multiple CAD is allowed. Use Da Jump to get into range (assuming good deep strike) and use power vomit of str 7 AP2 flamer. It's got alot to be desired for but hey it's something. *credit JimonMars*

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Eldar -
Dark Reaper exarch with tempest launcher (36' str4, AP3, 2 small blasts) + perfect timing or reaper rangefinder upgrade to ignore jink, also the regular reaper launcher works too at str 5, ap3 with reaper rangefinder.
Sonic Lance on the Revenant Titan and Lynx tank (LoW) - super sized inferno weapon, 3+ wound, Ap2, hellstorm (12'move +16' hellstorm template. +18' torrent for sonic lances = enough range) credit AnomanderRake*

Runner ups -
Your own jetbikes with a farseer to twin link your own scatter lazers to just overwhelm the other jetbikes saves.
Wraithknight / helmock -distortion weapons - no saves on 6's on D table *credit Kilofix*

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DE -
Sonic Lance on the Revenant Titan (LoW) - super sized inferno weapon, 3+ wound, Ap2, hellstorm (12'move +16' hellstorm template. +18' torrent for sonic lances = enough range) credit AnomanderRake* (can be taken by primary dark eldar according esclation codex)

Jimsolo wrote:TGL's and the Archangel of Pain both require a Ld test, and cause a wound (with no cover or armor saves) for each point by which the test is failed. This is made much better by the ability of the Dark Eldar/Harlequins to stack negative modifiers out the wazoo. (Each Haemmy coven formation projects a stacking 12" -1, the Shadowseer can take a 12" -2 as well as applying a further -1 from Terrify, and any Codex DE HQ can take a 6" -2. The Shadowseer can also take Psychic Shriek, which is even more effective than the TGL or Archangel of Pain.

All of these units have access to Deep Strike, and the DE HQs can take a Webway Portal to negate scatter. You could theoretically drop a Raider in with four HQs aboard (provided that you are taking a Harlequin, DE, and Covens detachment) which can cause 3d6-one unit's Ld in wounds (no saves for bikes) in the psychic phase, followed by a different unit suffering a TGL hit (Ld test, 1 wound-unsavable for bikes-per point it is failed by), as well as every unit within range of the Archangel of Pain suffering the same (although THIS test must be taken with a further -2 due to the Archangel's special rules). The unit inside the Raider (a unit of Harlies works well, as would a unit of Grotesques, who could potentially add another -1 to the equation) is also still free to shoot, although the Shadowseer can use his own Hallucinogen Grenade Launcher to throw out an attack which causes a Pinning test if it even hits, and this can target a different unit than the two previously hit!

Furthermore, in the above example, units within 6" of any part of the Raider are at a -5 or -6 to Ld normally, those within 12" are at -3 or -4.

This is only one example. The Freakish Spectacle rule, Mask of Secrets, Archangel of Pain, and Armor of Misery play well with the Torment Grenade Launcher, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Hallucinogen Grenade Launcher, as well as the Death Jester's Death is Not Enough! rule and the Shadowseer's guarantee-able Psychic Shriek and potential Terrify. These can all be mixed and matched to devastating effect against infantry (the TGL, PGL, and Archangel do not work against models with ATSKNF or Fearless, but Eldar don't have those normally) to devastating effect, and if allied with Codex: Eldar or a Corsairs army, the leadership-based tactics get even more gruesome.

(For reference, the Codex: Dark Eldar selections in the last paragraph are in Red, the Harlequins in Pink, and the Covens in Blue, with the selections that both DE forces can take in Purple.)

(Although I didn't list it in the example unit, the Death Jester pairs well in this grouping. Any unit he wounds must take a Morale test with a -2 penalty, and upon failure will flee in a direction of the Death Jester's choosing, strongly increasing the chances the bikes will flee off the board.)

*credit Jimsolo*

Runner ups -
Nothing super direct counter that I can think up but splinter cannons can give decent volume of fire from venoms
Disintegrator cannons can ignore armor and has decent volume but still allows cover save
Implosion missles also work at str 6 AP2 but 1 shot only. Also allows cover saves

Archon, phantasm GL, webway, 3 medusae and a venom with 2 cannons.
Unit deep strikes in without scatter.
Medusae disembark and toast a squad with 3 templates, S4 AP3 (ie, no cover or armor for bikes).
Archon fires his phantasm at another unit within 18" while the venom fires it's 12 poison shots at a 3rd unit. *credit Hawaiimatt*

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Tyranids -
Flying hive tyrants to get in range and fire with alot of Str 6 shots in kind - allows armor / cover however psychic scream can be effective


Runner ups -
Mawloc has str 6 ap2 ignore cover for a nice bite out of some bikes but somewhat harder to use repeatedly due to the lag in digging/emerging *credit rollawaythestone*
drop pod zoanthropes with neurothrope with spirit leech or psychic scream *credit rollawaythestone*

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CSM -
Heldrake - even with the nerfs to firing arc, the baleflamer is still one of the best wounds on 2+, AP3, and ignores cover torrent
*Chaos Rapiers with Attached Chaos Sorcerer for perfect Timing. 3 Str 10 AP 1 Large Blasts Ignores Cover from Cyclotrath Conversion Beamers, that wind up to str 10 at only 48" is monstrous. That and Typhon Heavy Siege tanks.* credit to GoliothOnline
Psychic shriek with daemon princes inclding Be'lakor *credit AnomanderRake*


Runner up -
Doom siren - if you can ever get that thing in range it's an AP3 flamer but only for noise marines and Lucius the eternal (I guess you can infiltrate him in somewhere)
Lord of Skulls (LoW) - gorestorm cannon - str 8 Ap3 hellstorm template but only 12' move + 16' template for 28' range so not full points. *credit KiloFix*
noise marine Blastmaster - single frequency is 48', str 8 AP3 and ignores cover *moved down due to single shot small blast being less likely to hit multiple bikes*
battle cannons on defilers or other units to just force jinks with AP3. This would include the plague hulk : the Nurgle Soul Grinder from FW and it is in IA13. It has a S6 rending battle cannon and a 3+ poison ap3 flamer *credit CrownAxe*
Chaos lord or sorc jump pack burning brand s4 ap3 torrent in a unit of raptors with a couple of flamers ds in and burn and if a sorc with telep psy shiek as well. Mark them as slaanesh for fnp banner and they could become a real pain to shift. - though they are kind of vulnerable to return fire next turn and have no precision deep strike, it's an option at the very least *credit Skullhammer*
Infernal Relic Predator in IA13 can take Ap3 autocannon and rending HB side sponsons to at least force jinks. *credit Camundongo*

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Chaos Daemons -
Psychic shriek with daemon princes inclding Be'lakor *credit AnomanderRake*
Greater brass scorpion - soulburner canon (str 6, AP2, large blast, ignores cover) *credit KiloFix*

Runner up -
deep striking herald of nurgle or daemon prince - essentially going for stream of corruption and or rancid visitation which is kind of crappy honestly vs T4, also plague wind can work too with AP2, 4+ to wound, but doesn't ignore cover.
Deep striking herald of slanesh/daemon prince/ masqe with Pavane (cascading ld- test, no armor or cover saves
Burning chariot of Tzeentch with pink fire of Tzeentch - str 5, AP3 torrent flamer. I'd rank this thing higher but it's too dependent on deep strike to keep up afterwards.
deep striking plague hulk - rancid vomit with AP3 template that wounds on a 3+ *credit KiloFix*
Mamon - Contagion spray - template, poison 2+, AP3) *credit KiloFix*
Tzeench has a S8 AP1 beam that cannot be jinked as it is not directly targeting apparently. Useful vs serpents as well *credit koooaei*

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I can't think up every system that is a direct or at least counters a bit in all the books and hoping that folks will have some ideas. I'll keep updating this thing as folks think of more things and we get more info. I kind of lumped all the IoM armies together as well to save space
I also did not include melee as the jetbikes as most can see from up top can get out of melee range of most things fairly easily even when shooting.

Appendix:

For those that don't know, IA2 has a back section that lets you buy specific upgrades for one vehicle per 1000 points. Think of them as a relic for vehicles.

Some of them are pretty powerful and some are more flavorful. These include:

ignore cover for any blast makers by this vehicle
preferred enemy orks, hatred orks, and if charged, attacking units reroll successful to hits
Monster hunter, also gives marines within 6' fearless
Once per game, gain skyfire, interceptor, tank hunters and night vision ( does it mean it can give itself interceptor on the enemy's turn? - not sure)
perferred enemy chaos space marine, and auto pass ruins dangerous terrain tests
Adamantium will
No scatter via deep strike
perferred enemy chaos space marine, and enemy warlords within 12' suffer -1 to ld
Perferred enemy (chaos Daemons), marines within 6' gain furious charge
Jink saves improved by 1 for storm eagle/varients. superheavy flyer gains 6+ jink
Marines gain fearless within 12'
Tank Hunters, ignore haywire on a 4+, and gains +1bs against things with daemonforge (i,e, heldrake)
It Will Not Die
+1 BS or +1 WS, if warlord is within 2'-the range of command trait is +6'. If destroyed, the vehicle = +1 victory point to the enemy
gain venerable rule but counts as ally of convenience to own detatchment or desperate ally to any allied detatchment
Reroll mysterious terrain/objective if desired if this vehicle discovers them

The various battle of keylek things are referencing the above list.

As an Eldar Unification player, I'm looking for Psychic Shriek/Terrify/Torment Launchers to do pretty well.

Place the Lootas in battlewagons to increase both survivability AND to be able to see the bikes. 15 Lootas can have problems all being able to see the same unit. An open-topped vehicle can fix this. Place on a Landing Pad for 4++ save against other Eldar Shooting.

They're 3+/4+ cover, T4? Am I missing something else?

Mavnas wrote:
They're 3+/4+ cover, T4? Am I missing something else?

Ld8, and can in the future buy a warlock (sgt sorta) upgrade that can have 4++ for just himself and a psy mastery 1. Don't think it ups their ld at all though, so still ld8

LD8 is fine. Relying on opponents to blow LD8 checks is a losing strategy.

 Jimsolo wrote:
As an Eldar Unification player, I'm looking for Psychic Shriek/Terrify/Torment Launchers to do pretty well.

what's a torment launcher do again?

I don't think the dakka flyrant is a good option. His shots only kill 3 bikes a turn, and he would probably be dead very very quickly.

Working under the assumption that the eldar player will not have left a complete blind spot in his list for AV13 and 14, I can't think of any realistic points-efficient counters in my own army. Pods will only work if the eldar player is mediocre or worse, skill-wise...

But Xenos players say pods are the overpowerd chez!

niv-mizzet wrote:
I don't think the dakka flyrant is a good option. His shots only kill 3 bikes a turn, and he would probably be dead very very quickly.

Working under the assumption that the eldar player will not have left a complete blind spot in his list for AV13 and 14, I can't think of any realistic points-efficient counters in my own army. Pods will only work if the eldar player is mediocre or worse, skill-wise...

this list isn't a points efficient counter list mind you. It's just a list of effective weapons for people to ponder about that are good at killing jetbikes. Don't worry so much about recommendations that depend on survival of said unit. The list is simply of good weapons platforms that kills jetbikes if it had a chance to fire at them.

" if it had a chance to fire at them."

Fair enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that I think about it, the BA turn 1 assault formation might do okay. But that's a tailored solution for sure.

Im just going to field Chaos Rapiers with Attached Chaos Sorcerer for perfect Timing. 3 Str 10 AP 1 Large Blasts Ignores Cover from Cyclotrath Conversion Beamers, that wind up to str 10 at only 48" is monstrous. That and Typhon Heavy Siege tanks.

Well in that case, the list is literally anything that can kill at least 3 T4 3+/4+Jink models to at least hope for a failed morale. That's a long list.

Cutting out the things that will never get a chance to do that, and the ones that are obviously inefficient at it, makes the list a lot more manageable.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Well in that case, the list is literally anything that can kill at least 3 T4 3+/4+Jink models to at least hope for a failed morale. That's a long list.

Cutting out the things that will never get a chance to do that, and the ones that are obviously inefficient at it, makes the list a lot more manageable.

It's actually not that long a list when you put your mind to it since you need Ap3, ignore cover, and 36'+ range or a way of getting it there or just some way of getting volume at that range would work too. Also, the inefficient ones are listed in the "runner up" section. The really optimized ones are not as common as it may seem actually. If you got something not on the list, please put it down and I'll update it to the top.

Anyone know what weapon the typhon seige tank has on it again?

It's actually not that long a list when you put your mind to it since you need Ap3, ignore cover,

No. Anything that can bury them in volume of fire works just fine without ignores cover.

For example, Pask in a Punisher will wipe out the squad if they don't jink or kill 4-5 if they do. A Punisher with just a regular tank commander (no rending, but BS4) will still probably kill 4. And the tank is AV14/13/11, so they'd have to get behind it to have a shot at killing it. Getting behind it while staying more than 30" away is harder.

Other possible observations, these guys will fold in melee pretty quickly to a number of units.

Consider a LR full of DCAs/Crusaders/Priests. They can't do anything to the LR. If they end their turn within 18" of it, it can move 6", disembark 6", and still have a reasonable charge distance. The overwatch is bad (2-3 dead crusaders), but each DCA kills 4 * 8/9 * 3/4 = 2 2/3 bikes assuming the priests can make one leadership test (or you allied in a SoB one with the book) If they fail that test, you only kill 1 7/9s. Assuming 6 DCAs, that's a dead squad. Worst case scenario is you now have to beat him in an opposed I test where you have +1 and the squad is basically done for.

That landraider has a decently large threat bubble to keep the bikers out as long as you can avoid getting it hit with ranged D weapons.

Something like necron wraiths or TWC can get reasonably close without being totally chewed up. Or at least close enough to force the bikes back from the rest of your army. Rememeber, if they have to flat out to get back in the action, they lost a turn, and they're not shooting on the turn they put themselves closer to you.

(Do they have hit and run?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scatterlasers are S6, 24" 5 shots?

I actually included several things with volume of fire but remember you have to deliver that volume at >36'. Scatter lasers are 36', str 6, AP6, 4 shots. The jetbikes have a threat range of 48'. The JSJ they do can keep them at 36+2d6 (avg of 6-7 so 42-43') range at the end of their turns. an Eldar jetbike moves 12' +36' flatout. They can move really fast. 48' movement every turn if not shooting. 18-19' while shooting. They do not have hit and run by default.

Pask punisher didn't make the list actually since the punisher cannon is only 24'.

Also the rules for making the list specifically said that we're not including melee counters. That's a different list for a different day. We have several threads already about "if I do this, then that thing then this thing happens threads through the rest of the threads here vs the next Eldar book' but I wanted to start isolating down specific weapon systems and did not want to put in a giant tactics discussion as that will be nearly limitless as you then can start debating between things like how hard things get hit back or sheer survivability of things and so forth. You can technically counter the 100+ str 6 shots with constantly recycling units formations like nids have and or chaos renegades from Vraks and then throw in some more discussions on range D weapons too but that I believe is outside the limited scope of this particular thread.

I'd rather start that kind of discussion in a separate tactical thread of which I think there are 2 on the first page right now. I'm doing a very narrow view focused look at just one aspect.

You missed Psychic Shriek in literally every book that can take it (most prominently Be'lakor and Daemon Princes), the Typhon and the Knight with the AP3 Hellstorm flamer for the Imperium, and the Sonic Lance (available on the Revenant and the Lynx) for the Eldar off the top of my head. I'd have more for you but Windows Explorer just died and I have to reboot now.

Well I'm building an Ork army and will be the only thing I have so I'll need to work with options from there. Looks like a combined firepower thing will be required. A full squad of Lootas and a Dakkajet with flyboss and the xtra pair of twin linked supa shootas will bring lots of dice to thin the herd. Considering adding a couple Traktor kannons to the big gun batteries to deal with the more powerful models.

ProwlerPC wrote:
A full squad of Lootas and a Dakkajet with flyboss and the xtra pair of twin linked supa shootas will bring lots of dice to thing the herd. Considering adding a couple Traktor kannons to the big gun batteries to deal with the more powerful models.

Not enough Lootas. I have a regular opponent who runs thirty rain or shine at any points level because they effectively counter so many things.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You missed Psychic Shriek in literally every book that can take it (most prominently Be'lakor and Daemon Princes), the Typhon and the Knight with the AP3 Hellstorm flamer for the Imperium, and the Sonic Lance (available on the Revenant and the Lynx) for the Eldar off the top of my head. I'd have more for you but Windows Explorer just died and I have to reboot now.

Thanks for those, added to the list under runner ups sections as the hellstorm templates are only 16' and +12' movement only gives them a 28' threat window. What's a Typhon btw? I'm not familiar with that.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Not enough Lootas. I have a regular opponent who runs thirty rain or shine at any points level because they effectively counter so many things.

Yeah this was a concern of mine when I first began reading of the possibility of a bike horde. If I roll Hvy1 for my Lootas it'll only be 15 shots which is why I think a Dakkajet with full kit and probably 2 Traktors since the previous two options won't ignore the armour of the bikes adding in a bit more reliability mixed in with the mass of dice. Still even with this setup you are probably right if I again get a bad roll for how many shots the Lootas will unleash that turn. But.... It would be fun to play out. I want a pair of Traktor Kannons available as an option anyways. Orks always had an issue before with ranged tank killing ability, this makes high armoured flyers dreadful. Those Traktor Kannons not only look cool but seem pretty effective on paper (at least it doesn't toss in another layer of randomness on the mtn of layers already)

Relic Predators with the Flamestorm Cannon if you have a way of getting them up close, Land Raider Redeemers because the scatbikes can't actually hurt them, Loyalist or Chaos Marines both have the Typhon, if you have the Reserves interaction to pull it off a Hell Blade is six autocannons for a hundred and fifteen points, a Blastmaster isn't really optimal since it's so expensive and a small blast is only going to hit one bike most of the time but it is S8/AP3 Ignores Cover, a Brass Scorpion is a solid tool since it's got Flamestorm cannons, an Ignores Cover demolisher cannon, ten S6/AP3 shots, the speed to get upfield with them (12" move and 3d6" charge), and it's impervious to scatbikes from the front and sides (you have an Invul and Cursed Earth to fight other things) but it has to be properly used and supported. Any unit with the Artillery type has the range to threaten the bikes and it's T7 against shooting so they have a hard time removing it, Kriegers can give Ignores Cover to a S6 Large Blast with Shred or an Earthshaker carriage.

A Plague Hulk can Deep Strike and lay down a S5/AP3 template and a S6/AP3 Large Blast while 13/13/11 and an Invul keeps it alive, Hellchickens are flying around with an AP3 torrent flamer, the humble Russ can toss AP3 Large Blasts downrange to keep the bikes Jinking, the Thunderer is a 140pt squadronable 14-13-10 Vindicator, Bane Wolves have a Poisoned 2+ AP2 torrent weapon if you can keep them alive...

Lots of tools in lots of books.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.......T7 grots standing in front of anti-air batteries.

 sudojoe wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You missed Psychic Shriek in literally every book that can take it (most prominently Be'lakor and Daemon Princes), the Typhon and the Knight with the AP3 Hellstorm flamer for the Imperium, and the Sonic Lance (available on the Revenant and the Lynx) for the Eldar off the top of my head. I'd have more for you but Windows Explorer just died and I have to reboot now.

Thanks for those, added to the list under runner ups sections as the hellstorm templates are only 16' and +12' movement only gives them a 28' threat window. What's a Typhon btw? I'm not familiar with that.

Super-heavy oversized Vindicator. Not sure how much of the rules I'm allowed to be specific about but it's got Land Raider AV, six hull points, a 7" blast Demolisher cannon with Ignores Cover that's 48" range if it doesn't move, it's under four hundred points, and Chaos and Loyalist Space Marines can both get them so that's every Legacy of Ruin/Legacy of Glory to make it funnier.

Speaking of Legacies of Ruin/Legacies of Glory you can buy Battle of Keylek for Ignores Cover on all blasts on a Scorpius, that might be a reasonable counter. Hide it way back out of LOS and drop d3+1 S8/AP3 ignores cover barrage small blasts out a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm thinking the funniest Legacies of Ruin/Glory for the Typhon would be Maelstrom Raider for Outflank, Death of Kasyr Lutien to let any Malefic Daemonology casts within 12" of the tank reroll one die for every hull point it has left (go summoning!), or War of Murder (Fearless bubble and Monster Hunter).

Did we already include:

+ Knight Acheron
+ Lord of Skulls
+ Malcador Infernus

All high Str AP3 Hellstorm.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Relic Predators with the Flamestorm Cannon if you have a way of getting them up close, Land Raider Redeemers because the scatbikes can't actually hurt them, Loyalist or Chaos Marines both have the Typhon, if you have the Reserves interaction to pull it off a Hell Blade is six autocannons for a hundred and fifteen points, a Blastmaster isn't really optimal since it's so expensive and a small blast is only going to hit one bike most of the time but it is S8/AP3 Ignores Cover, a Brass Scorpion is a solid tool since it's got Flamestorm cannons, an Ignores Cover demolisher cannon, ten S6/AP3 shots, the speed to get upfield with them (12" move and 3d6" charge), and it's impervious to scatbikes from the front and sides (you have an Invul and Cursed Earth to fight other things) but it has to be properly used and supported. Any unit with the Artillery type has the range to threaten the bikes and it's T7 against shooting so they have a hard time removing it, Kriegers can give Ignores Cover to a S6 Large Blast with Shred or an Earthshaker carriage.

A Plague Hulk can Deep Strike and lay down a S5/AP3 template and a S6/AP3 Large Blast while 13/13/11 and an Invul keeps it alive, Hellchickens are flying around with an AP3 torrent flamer, the humble Russ can toss AP3 Large Blasts downrange to keep the bikes Jinking, the Thunderer is a 140pt squadronable 14-13-10 Vindicator, Bane Wolves have a Poisoned 2+ AP2 torrent weapon if you can keep them alive...

Lots of tools in lots of books.

most of those are already on the list but I did add in anything I missed with credit to you. I especially like the krieg one that I forgot about. Several suggestions I already thought about like the banewolf for example but the chem cannon isn't actually a torrent (the other flamer template however is a torrent but not AP3) and doesn't meet the criteria for a superior weapon system since it's too short ranged. Thunderer is also too short ranged to always be effective so I didn't include it. The battle cannon already listed above.

While folks keep saying lots of tools, You've listed most of the same things I thought of at first glance then I had nothing left lol. I thought it was a much larger myself but the above is what I'm thinking is the bulk of things that are fairly good at that kind of job. I'll move the blast master down a bit.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You missed Psychic Shriek in literally every book that can take it (most prominently Be'lakor and Daemon Princes), the Typhon and the Knight with the AP3 Hellstorm flamer for the Imperium, and the Sonic Lance (available on the Revenant and the Lynx) for the Eldar off the top of my head. I'd have more for you but Windows Explorer just died and I have to reboot now.

Hey, now I can bring the knight and not feel like TFG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also for Space Wolves, a Rune Priest with plasma pistol and the Helm that gives his shooting attacks ignores cover (works on witchfire powers) would be nice to add to a pod. Not sure which discipline gives you the most firepower, but I'd lean Biomancy since the primaris is 4 shots at AP2.

 KiloFiX wrote:
Did we already include:

+ Knight Acheron
+ Lord of Skulls
+ Malcador Infernus

All high Str AP3 Hellstorm.

Added to the list and credited. The lord of skulls didn't get full points as it is not actually a torrent hellstorm template so it's range is limited to 12' move + 16' template = 28' threat window

Btw, what's a plague hulk? I'm not sure where to find the stats for that one.
Also still wondering what a torment launcher does.

I love the ideas so far btw. Keep'em comming folks.

What about:

+ Necron Monoliths (Gravity Pulse - not ideal, but huge diameter)

+ IG LasCannon or Missile Squads with Ignores Cover Orders
+ Eldar Wraithguard with D-Scythes (Template D-Weapon)
+ Flamestorm Cannons on Land Raiders / Relic Preds (Template S6 AP3)

+ Daemons - Plague Psychic - Rancid Visitations (Nova T-test, no Armor or Cover Saves)
+ Daemons - Excess Psychic - Pavane (Cascading Ld-test, no Armor or Cover Saves)
+ Daemons - Plague Psychic - Choir (Nova Ld-test, no Armor or Cover Saves)

+ Daemons - Masque - Dance of Death
+ IA Daemons - Mamon - Contagion Spray (Template, Poison 2+, AP3)
+ IA Daemons - Plague Hulk - Rancid Vomit (Template, Poison 3+, AP3)
+ IA Daemons - Greater Brass Scorpion - Soulburner Cannon (S6 AP2 Large Blast, Ignores Cover)


+ Aquila Strongpoints
+ Eldar Wraithknight / Hemlock D-Weapons (6 on D-Table allows no saves)
+ Aquila Strongpoints (6 on D-Table)
+ Any Super Heavy Stomp (6 on Stomp-Table)

Typhon Heavy Siege Tank has the Dreadhammer str 10 AP 1 Massive Blast Ignores Cover. I wont list the range nor point values, but yeah, you'll want one

 KiloFiX wrote:
What about:

+ Necron Monoliths (Gravity Pulse - not ideal, but huge diameter)

+ IG LasCannon or Missile Squads with Ignores Cover Orders
+ Eldar Wraithguard with D-Scythes (Template D-Weapon)
+ Flamestorm Cannons on Land Raiders / Relic Preds (Template S6 AP3)

+ Daemons - Plague Psychic - Rancid Visitations (Nova T-test, no Armor or Cover Saves)
+ Daemons - Excess Psychic - Pavane (Cascading Ld-test, no Armor or Cover Saves)
+ Daemons - Plague Psychic - Choir (Nova Ld-test, no Armor or Cover Saves)

+ Daemons - Masque - Dance of Death
+ IA Daemons - Mamon - Contagion Spray (Template, Poison 2+, AP3)
+ IA Daemons - Plague Hulk - Rancid Vomit (Template, Poison 3+, AP3)
+ IA Daemons - Greater Brass Scorpion - Soulburner Cannon (S6 AP2 Large Blast, Ignores Cover)


+ Aquila Strongpoints
+ Eldar Wraithknight / Hemlock D-Weapons (6 on D-Table allows no saves)
+ Aquila Strongpoints (6 on D-Table)
+ Any Super Heavy Stomp (6 on Stomp-Table)

Good ideas but again, this list is not using any melee units as it's too hard to pin jet bikes to melee most of the time and I wanted to keep the list on track. Added things that can get 36' range or deep strike in at least to make it on the list. Quite a few items mentioned just don't have the range to be all that useful like the flamestorm cannons until there's a unit that can deliver that thing within range in one go. There are tons of stuff at AP3 and ignore cover but the list shrinks alot when you factor in the ranges required to deal with the new jetbikes. Credited though with ideas that did not yet get mentioned.

A little question does the cover save of Jink reduce their shooting power significantly?

No reason not to put the Traktor Kannons up there for the Orks. 36" Str8 AP3 Hvy1 Skyfire and Immobilizes flyers on glances and pens, that's a 1/3 chance of killing one from a crash and burn if they are zooming (do these bikers zoom?) If they are hovering then the traktor part doesn't really help but it's still a skyfire str8 ap3 35" artillery piece. Up to 5 in one chart selection deployable as 5 seperate units and can have 4 T7 grots as a crew. BS3 too which means it's a sniper gun as far as Orks are concerned =P.

More:

Dark Eldar - Phantasm Grenade Launchers
Harlequin - Hallucinogen Grenade Launchers
Above - especially with up to -5 or more in stacked Ld debuffs from their other equipment / units.

IG - Banewolf - Chem Cannon (Template Poison 2+ AP2)
IG - Deathstrike (Apoc Blast, S10 AP1 Ignores Cover)
IG - Hotshot Volley Guns (AP3) with Ignores Cover Orders

Skitarii - Vanguards or Rangers - Phospor + Omnispex + Plasma Cavaliers

 KiloFiX wrote:
More:

Dark Eldar - Phantasm Grenade Launchers
Harlequin - Hallucinogen Grenade Launchers
Above - especially with up to -5 or more in stacked Ld debuffs from their other equipment / units.

IG - Banewolf - Chem Cannon (Template Poison 2+ AP2)
IG - Deathstrike (Apoc Blast, S10 AP1 Ignores Cover)
IG - Hotshot Volley Guns (AP3) with Ignores Cover Orders

Skitarii - Vanguards or Rangers - Phospor + Omnispex + Plasma Cavaliers

I like the ideas but remember the required 36' delivery range requirement. A bunch of those are too short to be viable unless there's a deep strike / infiltrate package available to deliver said weapons. What's the skitarii combo do? I'm not as familiar with their stuff as yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
No reason not to put the Traktor Kannons up there for the Orks. 36" Str8 AP3 Hvy1 Skyfire and Immobilizes flyers on glances and pens, that's a 1/3 chance of killing one from a crash and burn if they are zooming (do these bikers zoom?) If they are hovering then the traktor part doesn't really help but it's still a skyfire str8 ap3 35" artillery piece. Up to 5 in one chart selection deployable as 5 seperate units and can have 4 T7 grots as a crew. BS3 too which means it's a sniper gun as far as Orks are concerned =P.

jetbikes aren't flyers so you'd be trying to snapfire at them. Also not vehicles


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:
A little question does the cover save of Jink reduce their shooting power significantly?

yes it does. forces the bikes to snap fire next turn at least.

I would add for nids a living artillery node. Biovores have range and the exocrine, once in range, would devour them with the bio plasmic cannon. I have been using this node for quite a few games now and the whole node is really my shinning star.

 sudojoe wrote:

jetbikes aren't flyers so you'd be trying to snapfire at them. Also not vehicles

Oh......shoot I thought they flew about swooping and harrassing. I'll have to look into dropping templates on them if the swarm is big enough then.

So, even though it's sort of breaking the spirit of the OP (lacks 36" range...), I personally consider the Taghmata Omnissiah list in 30K to be the ultimate in waltzing through Scatterbikes.

Mostly because everything is so damn tough that even the mass of S6 firepower that Scatterbikes bring is irrelevant. Since, you know, when you can bring JSJ-capable, T5/3W/4+/6+++ infantry that penalize cover (IE Jink) by -2, as Troops... those Jetbikers don't seem as scary.

Or if you go full robo, then you can bring Castellax Battle-Automata, T7/4W/3+ MCs. As Troops. In squads. For 100 ppm, as that also makes them BS5, and penalizes cover saves by -1 taken against the automata's shooting.

And they have an S6/AP3 gun. Alas, you'll still need some other guys to fill out your compulsory Troops requirement... but hey, Thallax are pretty beast and thanks to being Jetpack Infantry they can DS in. With S7/Rending guns by default, and access to a number of mid/high RoF S6 weapons (or MMs, if you choose), they can do great at cracking AV10 rear vehicles.

Alternately, you can bring Scyllax Guardian-Automata, which are T5/2W/4+ infantry that are real easy to make Fearless.

You can also bring Triaros Conveyors (14/12/12 4HPs with a Flare Shield), and Thanatar Siege Automata (T8/4W2+/5++). Thanatars also bring Large Blast Barrage S8/AP2 weapons that force successful cover saves to be re-rolled.

Thanatars also have access to the same wargear option that gives +1BS and -1 cover against the unit's shooting. Oh, and Thanatars also carry a TL version of the same basic gun that a Castellax carries.

The only failing of the Taghmata is that it's limited to around 18-24" range shooting for most of its weapons. Of course, given how ~95-100% of the list (army composition depending) is functionally immune to S6 firepower... I don't see much issue with it. You can basically put it on the table and ignore Scatterbikes; against Thallax, they'll average ~2 models killed with another standing with 1 wound remaining.

For the Castellax Battle Automata, you can get 3 for 30 points more than 10 Scatterbikes. That's 12 T7 3+ armor wounds. Scatterbikes can take 3 wounds off of one Castellax.

In order to kill the entire squad of Castellax, you'd need 40 Jetbikes, all shooting the Castellax at the same time. Or, in other words, 3 times the cost of the Castellax to kill them with Scatterbikes.

Some things for Necrons:

Destroyers: AP3, can Deep Strike into range, Preferred Enemy, rerolls to wound if taken in a formation, does not ignore cover
Doomsday Ark: 72" range, high strength/low AP, Large Blast, does not ignore cover


Also, the Tesseract Vault does have Ignores Cover on one of its shooting attacks. So do the rest of the C'Tan, but at half the range. The Nightbringer's Gaze of Death has Ignores Cover and targets their Leadership, but the range is too short to rely on.

I miss the Abyssal Staff.

Has anyone considered wyverns? they still get their armor, but it'll force some serious zone denial.

This list is probably a really good idea so as to help people brainstorm ideas on how to handle the new eldar. I think you might want to open it up somewhat to include high RoF that can kill T4 Sv3+ models really well. An example being banner of devastation ravenwing which gets enough shots per 6 bikes to kill average 4 dead eldar bikers per turn. Honestly though most of the best units have been discussed.

BTW the ignore cover order is from the new IG codex. The Death Korps Assault Brigade has access to it but the new Death Korps Siege Regiment does not.

I would also recommend upgrading the utility of the vulcan megabolter as most of the LoW with this on it get to fire twice and thus 30 BS3 TL Str6 AP3 shots is an average of 9 failed 4+ jink saves. That is a whole bike unit. Also the stormlord could very likely keep most of your army safe for a couple of turns while they stay embarked in it.

Some of the units I like for the job;
IG
*IG Command Squad w/ 4 plasmaguns. (I usually add an allied inquisitor or libby for prescience, a 2+ save, and Ld 10) This unit can give itself ignore cover and also order a unit next to it. There are 3 major methods of delivery: 1) allied Drop Pod, 2) Elysian Drop Troops Command Squads get DS automatically, or 3) put them insider a vendetta or valk. This with just the ignore cover order will average 4.4 dead jet
*IG vet squads in drop pods or in the elysian drop troops coming in beside their command squad (I run drop lists with this combo all the time)
*Leman Russ punisher. Just sit the tank in the middle of the board
+Note: IG actually have a massive firefight advantage against the new eldar thank to the order get back into the fight + an aegis defense line. This combo means IG can have a 2+ cover save against the eldar shooting and then fire normally the next turn. This is why the earthshaker heavy artillery carriages with yarrick and some psykers will become extremely nasty against eldar jetbike spam.

SM
*Legion of the Damned w/ combi-grav, plasmagun, and plasma cannon. Relatively cheap, useful against a variety of targets, and kills an average of 3.5 bikes.
*Devastator centurions w/ grav cannons and hurricane bolters in drop pod. Averages 6 dead bikes even after jink.

Psychic shriek needs its own category. It is available to most armies and is pretty effective against the Ld8 jetbike units, averaging ~3 dead bike a use before any Ld modifiers. This is probably going to be the primary answer for most psyker heavy armies. DS or fly up to the bikes and hammer unit after unit with psychic shrieks until it dies.

...to be continued

For Tyranids, Mawlocs seem like an effective way to strike Jetbikes on turn 2.

Drop pod full of Zoanthropes with Neurothrope might also be effective. Target the biggest unit with Spirit Leech (although psychic defenses might make this difficult).

IMO, you've got basically 3 options.
1) AV13 to be immune to the bikes and pink away.
2) Deep Strike to strike the bikes before the bikes can respond. Either AP3 or better + ignore cover, or a ton of normal shooting. Jink doesn't matter if you just flak the 3+ armor to death.
3) MSU and rapid assault units. Accept the losses, but bring enough units to have something that can still assault.

The problem with AV13+ is the mass of D weapons that eldar just got handed. most AV13+ is expensive, which prevents taking enough of them.
The problem with option 2 is that you've got to survive the first turn of shooting.

My best choice so far is Archon, phantasm GL, webway, 3 medusae and a venom with 2 cannons.

Unit deep strikes in without scatter.
Medusae disembark and toast a squad with 3 templates, S4 AP3 (ie, no cover or armor for bikes).
Archon fires his phantasm at another unit within 18" while the venom fires it's 12 poison shots at a 3rd unit.

 sudojoe wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
As an Eldar Unification player, I'm looking for Psychic Shriek/Terrify/Torment Launchers to do pretty well.

what's a torment launcher do again?

If they even get hit by it they take a LD test, and suffer one wound for every point they fail by. No armor saves (or cover, I believe, but I might be mistaken). Coupled with the stacking Ld penalty bubbles of a Freakshow list, it adds up to some serious hurt.

Anything for Dark Angels? I'm really quite anxious to find a counter with my Dark Angels. I'm guessing plasma spam, So, Ravendeath with Plasma spam?

Lance845 wrote:I would add for nids a living artillery node. Biovores have range and the exocrine, once in range, would devour them with the bio plasmic cannon. I have been using this node for quite a few games now and the whole node is really my shinning star.

I thought about it but since bikes are immune to pinning and the spores are only str4, and doesn't cancel out the armor, I find them lackluster. I didn't include the exocrine as it's range is not sufficient for this list. Good idea but doesn't fit the spirit of the list.

Whiskey144 wrote:So, even though it's sort of breaking the spirit of the OP (lacks 36" range...), I personally consider the Taghmata Omnissiah list in 30K to be the ultimate in waltzing through Scatterbikes.

Mostly because everything is so damn tough that even the mass of S6 firepower that Scatterbikes bring is irrelevant. Since, you know, when you can bring JSJ-capable, T5/3W/4+/6+++ infantry that penalize cover (IE Jink) by -2, as Troops... those Jetbikers don't seem as scary.

Or if you go full robo, then you can bring Castellax Battle-Automata, T7/4W/3+ MCs. As Troops. In squads. For 100 ppm, as that also makes them BS5, and penalizes cover saves by -1 taken against the automata's shooting.

And they have an S6/AP3 gun. Alas, you'll still need some other guys to fill out your compulsory Troops requirement... but hey, Thallax are pretty beast and thanks to being Jetpack Infantry they can DS in. With S7/Rending guns by default, and access to a number of mid/high RoF S6 weapons (or MMs, if you choose), they can do great at cracking AV10 rear vehicles.

Alternately, you can bring Scyllax Guardian-Automata, which are T5/2W/4+ infantry that are real easy to make Fearless.

You can also bring Triaros Conveyors (14/12/12 4HPs with a Flare Shield), and Thanatar Siege Automata (T8/4W2+/5++). Thanatars also bring Large Blast Barrage S8/AP2 weapons that force successful cover saves to be re-rolled.

Thanatars also have access to the same wargear option that gives +1BS and -1 cover against the unit's shooting. Oh, and Thanatars also carry a TL version of the same basic gun that a Castellax carries.

The only failing of the Taghmata is that it's limited to around 18-24" range shooting for most of its weapons. Of course, given how ~95-100% of the list (army composition depending) is functionally immune to S6 firepower... I don't see much issue with it. You can basically put it on the table and ignore Scatterbikes; against Thallax, they'll average ~2 models killed with another standing with 1 wound remaining.

For the Castellax Battle Automata, you can get 3 for 30 points more than 10 Scatterbikes. That's 12 T7 3+ armor wounds. Scatterbikes can take 3 wounds off of one Castellax.

In order to kill the entire squad of Castellax, you'd need 40 Jetbikes, all shooting the Castellax at the same time. Or, in other words, 3 times the cost of the Castellax to kill them with Scatterbikes.

I have no experience with the 30k mechanicum but it is a very interesting build idea. I'd add it but it's not commonly used for 40k vs 30k armies so I have elected to keep it off the list for now.

Drakmord wrote:Some things for Necrons:

Destroyers: AP3, can Deep Strike into range, Preferred Enemy, rerolls to wound if taken in a formation, does not ignore cover
Doomsday Ark: 72" range, high strength/low AP, Large Blast, does not ignore cover


Also, the Tesseract Vault does have Ignores Cover on one of its shooting attacks. So do the rest of the C'Tan, but at half the range. The Nightbringer's Gaze of Death has Ignores Cover and targets their Leadership, but the range is too short to rely on.

I miss the Abyssal Staff.

Added to the list and credited. I miss that writhing worldscape thing actually hahaha. Te nightbriner was not added due to the range of the attack.

triant308 wrote:Has anyone considered wyverns? they still get their armor, but it'll force some serious zone denial.

added the wyverns and credited though the math is not as good for the wyrvens as they'd be vs lighter armored infantry

ansacs wrote:This list is probably a really good idea so as to help people brainstorm ideas on how to handle the new eldar. I think you might want to open it up somewhat to include high RoF that can kill T4 Sv3+ models really well. An example being banner of devastation ravenwing which gets enough shots per 6 bikes to kill average 4 dead eldar bikers per turn. Honestly though most of the best units have been discussed.

BTW the ignore cover order is from the new IG codex. The Death Korps Assault Brigade has access to it but the new Death Korps Siege Regiment does not.

I would also recommend upgrading the utility of the vulcan megabolter as most of the LoW with this on it get to fire twice and thus 30 BS3 TL Str6 AP3 shots is an average of 9 failed 4+ jink saves. That is a whole bike unit. Also the stormlord could very likely keep most of your army safe for a couple of turns while they stay embarked in it.

Some of the units I like for the job;
IG
*IG Command Squad w/ 4 plasmaguns. (I usually add an allied inquisitor or libby for prescience, a 2+ save, and Ld 10) This unit can give itself ignore cover and also order a unit next to it. There are 3 major methods of delivery: 1) allied Drop Pod, 2) Elysian Drop Troops Command Squads get DS automatically, or 3) put them insider a vendetta or valk. This with just the ignore cover order will average 4.4 dead jet
*IG vet squads in drop pods or in the elysian drop troops coming in beside their command squad (I run drop lists with this combo all the time)
*Leman Russ punisher. Just sit the tank in the middle of the board
+Note: IG actually have a massive firefight advantage against the new eldar thank to the order get back into the fight + an aegis defense line. This combo means IG can have a 2+ cover save against the eldar shooting and then fire normally the next turn. This is why the earthshaker heavy artillery carriages with yarrick and some psykers will become extremely nasty against eldar jetbike spam.

SM
*Legion of the Damned w/ combi-grav, plasmagun, and plasma cannon. Relatively cheap, useful against a variety of targets, and kills an average of 3.5 bikes.
*Devastator centurions w/ grav cannons and hurricane bolters in drop pod. Averages 6 dead bikes even after jink.

Psychic shriek needs its own category. It is available to most armies and is pretty effective against the Ld8 jetbike units, averaging ~3 dead bike a use before any Ld modifiers. This is probably going to be the primary answer for most psyker heavy armies. DS or fly up to the bikes and hammer unit after unit with psychic shrieks until it dies.

...to be continued

credited with ideas not already on the list. I'm not sold completely on the vulcan megabolter being higher ups though I like the tank alot actually since I've used it for a shooty fortress for my IG for a while now (stormlord chassis). The fact that I have to stand still for the double fire bothers me I guess and ever since malestorm missions forced me to move alot, I've depended less and less on static gunlines especially since I can't give orders to the things inside the tank. The punisher on a LR was not added as it's just too short ranged and slow to make this particular list but I do appreciate the firepower. It's fine and made the list on the flying platform already.

rollawaythestone wrote:For Tyranids, Mawlocs seem like an effective way to strike Jetbikes on turn 2.

Drop pod full of Zoanthropes with Neurothrope might also be effective. Target the biggest unit with Spirit Leech (although psychic defenses might make this difficult).

added to the list and credited =)

HawaiiMatt wrote:IMO, you've got basically 3 options.
1) AV13 to be immune to the bikes and pink away.
2) Deep Strike to strike the bikes before the bikes can respond. Either AP3 or better + ignore cover, or a ton of normal shooting. Jink doesn't matter if you just flak the 3+ armor to death.
3) MSU and rapid assault units. Accept the losses, but bring enough units to have something that can still assault.

The problem with AV13+ is the mass of D weapons that eldar just got handed. most AV13+ is expensive, which prevents taking enough of them.
The problem with option 2 is that you've got to survive the first turn of shooting.

My best choice so far is Archon, phantasm GL, webway, 3 medusae and a venom with 2 cannons.

Unit deep strikes in without scatter.
Medusae disembark and toast a squad with 3 templates, S4 AP3 (ie, no cover or armor for bikes).
Archon fires his phantasm at another unit within 18" while the venom fires it's 12 poison shots at a 3rd unit.

Added to the list and credited. I've added section labels to the list as I realized the same thing while writing it up and organized it accordingly. Edited to make the list easier to read. I did not include assault units due to the narrow view of this list. It's not meant to be a full tactical fight scenario though the weapons above can certainly help dictate the tactics available to a commander. I'll probably make a different list later on to discuss assault assets but that's a different list. Heck, if someone wants to tackle that, please feel free to start one. I can only edit so many posts a day


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 Doctadeth wrote:
Anything for Dark Angels? I'm really quite anxious to find a counter with my Dark Angels. I'm guessing plasma spam, So, Ravendeath with Plasma spam?

I'm guessing the standard of devestation on bikes could help. That and plasma talons possibly. Also can ally in anything else on the list from the Imperium of man choices would probably help anyway.

Crisis Suits with Plasma, BS5 and Ignores Cover (so 4 MLs) will kill 8.333 bikes. The remaining 2 bikes won't even kill 1 Crisis model.

Of course, this means DSing them nearby bikes

 Vector Strike wrote:
Crisis Suits with Plasma, BS5 and Ignores Cover (so 4 MLs) will kill 8.333 bikes. The remaining 2 bikes won't even kill 1 Crisis model.

Of course, this means DSing them nearby bikes

And having marker lights in range, and survive until the crisis suits come in.

-Matt

Cerastus Knight-Acheron, S7 AP 3 Hellstorm.

I'd like to chip in with a Battle of Keylek (ignores cover blasts) Felblade

7" TL S7AP3 blast will comfortably toast an entire squad at once, while the Quad-Lascannons can fire reasonably effectively against flyers/Wraith monsters, and the Demolisher cannon is the bane of Wraithguard.

The main gun can also fire a S9AP2 Armourbane round to get rid of pesky things like Fire Prisms & Wave Serpents.

EDIT: Also, as a Super-Heavy, it moves 12", so can at least keep pace with the Jetbikes unless they elect not to shoot, can outrange almost all of the ranged D in the codex, and is tough enough to not be a guaranteed corpse if it is caught by a Distortion volley. It can also do all of the above at once

IHateNids wrote:I'd like to chip in with a Battle of Keylek (ignores cover blasts) Felblade

7" TL S7AP3 blast will comfortably toast an entire squad at once, while the Quad-Lascannons can fire reasonably effectively against flyers/Wraith monsters, and the Demolisher cannon is the bane of Wraithguard.

The main gun can also fire a S9AP2 Armourbane round to get rid of pesky things like Fire Prisms & Wave Serpents.

EDIT: Also, as a Super-Heavy, it moves 12", so can at least keep pace with the Jetbikes unless they elect not to shoot, can outrange almost all of the ranged D in the codex, and is tough enough to not be a guaranteed corpse if it is caught by a Distortion volley. It can also do all of the above at once

I forgot about that guy. Always seen it run with schism of mars vs all that haywire but I guess keylek is good option too. Credited and added to list. Maybe just have a list with that thing along sciarian and fire raptor. I always wanted to throw something like that together with possibly something that gives shrouding or some such. I'll have to work something else for the interceptor fire, maybe a bunch of onager dune walkers with icarus or something like that. Haven't figured out a list I want to go into the next phase of 7th for. No large tourneys where I live anyway so it's just me messing around with a few folks (some are quite competitive)

God In Action wrote:Cerastus Knight-Acheron, S7 AP 3 Hellstorm.

was already on the list.

Vector Strike wrote:Crisis Suits with Plasma, BS5 and Ignores Cover (so 4 MLs) will kill 8.333 bikes. The remaining 2 bikes won't even kill 1 Crisis model.

Of course, this means DSing them nearby bikes

Added to the list and credited.

Flame throwers. Real life flame throwers. Melt those space elves down to a puddle.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Flame throwers. Real life flame throwers. Melt those space elves down to a puddle.

some might be pewter still. (I still have a squad or two of jetbikes that are metal)

 sudojoe wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Flame throwers. Real life flame throwers. Melt those space elves down to a puddle.

some might be pewter still. (I still have a squad or two of jetbikes that are metal)

Pewter melts too. 170-230 degrees C. Nice shiny puddles.

I'm surprised this hasn't been said yet, but I might say take 2-3 Vindicators. S10 AP2 pie plates should scare anybody. Also, large units of Ravenwing Black Knights (admittedly expensive) should be able to wreck those jetbikes, especially if a biker librarian with an auspex is nearby to reduce their cover.

2-3 Vindicators don't scare me, even. They are AV 11.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I'm surprised this hasn't been said yet, but I might say take 2-3 Vindicators. S10 AP2 pie plates should scare anybody. Also, large units of Ravenwing Black Knights (admittedly expensive) should be able to wreck those jetbikes, especially if a biker librarian with an auspex is nearby to reduce their cover.

vindicators don't scare me either. It's too short ranged and too vulnerable to side shots to be all that effective. Also too low ranged on too slow a chassis to threaten something that's shooting at 36' range and moves much faster.

Ravenwing does have the plasma talons but 12' + 18' is only 30' threat window. The asupex can't even function at that range yet. The standard of devestation + bikes is already on the list.

CSM have the Typhon and Sicarans too, though unfortunately the Legacies of Ruin in IA13 don't include one that gives Ignores Cover.


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Land Raider Prometheus is impervious to Scabikes and has an auspex for everyone else, might be worth looking into. Problem with trusting your Land Raider or Typhon is the abundance of D weapons on the other side of the Jetbikes.

The HYMP broadsides don't need ignores cover as their missiles don't get past the 3+ armour save, so the attached commander doesn't actually contribute to the unit (unless you also have them with twin-linked plasma rifles, in which case carry on but you need to get closer which will be difficult). Also, the Puretide chip doesn't give ignores cover, it's the one that gives out tank hunter, counter-attack etc. so if that's on there for other reasons then carry on.

For Tau, I'd say a possibility is the Farsight 7 man bodyguard team with buffmander/buff'vre and a load of drones as ablative wounds.

So many twin-linked ignores cover plasma rifles...

Necron Nightbringer may be too short range if taken as itself.

If taken in a conclave though, you can DS it, should be close enough to get in a PotC'Tan and a gaze of death. Plus 6 S5 AP3 shots from the crypteks that are with it.

It'll also be T8 if you build the conclave correctly.

Another thing: Necron Doom Scythe formation. They'll get some S10 AP1 blasts, and one of them will deviate less. Add to that the Tesla Destructors, and the formation can reduce their leadership to a 7, which might make them run after getting some hits in, and also pairs well with the aforementioned gaze of death.

Sort of a hybrid in the Shooting/Melee counter:

Catacomb Command Barge: Kitted out, you can get a S7 AP2 one use only flamer, an AP3 2 shot heavy guass cannon, and/or a staff of light on the overlord riding. For the melee list, it can move 12" and flat out 18", so it should be able to catch them and the scatter laser can't touch the Barge's AV13.

The tau XV109 Y'vahra might do rather well. It's pretty tough, very mobile, and it's plasma flamer will ignore their armour and save, and has a 6" torrent to extend the range. Also has another 3 shots with the ionic discarge cannon at 12", which ignore armour and blind them, if you then want to charge and attack them.

For orks flash gitz might come in handy. It a lot of S5 shots and half the time you ignore armor and they can take a battle wagon as a transport.

Deff koptas with twin rokkits are almost just as fast, have 4+ armor and 2 wounds.

I'm a bit dissapointed with the range of their snazguns but they are essentially Nobz with 2 wounds each. They look amazing and I'm certainly going to pick up some for painting but as soon as they lose the mobility of their transport I fear those bikes will have no issue staying out of range while still being able to reach them with their own guns.

Deff Koptas are Orks version of jetbikes. I'm juggling the idea of getting them or buggies. Hard to say. Maybe/probably both.

I might have missed it, but was there a reason Torment Grenade Launchers and the Archangel of Pain aren't on the list for Dark Eldar?

Also, Harlequins: a Shadowseer with the Mask of Secrets and Psychic Shriek (and/or Terrify) could do some serious damage to the new bikes. Death is Not Enough on the Death Jesters could seriously hurt the bikes too, especially given that they are likely to be hanging around backfield and that they flee farther than other units.

As an addition to what's already stated about the Wyvern, Jink is useless against it, and if you take Renegades you can field batteries of 5 and each tank is 10pts cheaper to boot. 20x twin-linked shredding cover-ignoring barrage small blasts. All for slightly more than a Land Raider.

My Wyvern battery did really well at wiping small squads of bikes out this past weekend. They accounted for 90% of the kills in both squads. Admittingly their first volley only killed two of a 5 man unit but the rest of the volleys did major damage to both units I was against. That said, it was a wraith list and the bikes were pretty much the only thing worth shooting at with them in the entire list.

I think that if 10 man bikes become a thing, Wyverns will be a great weapon to use. Especially as hopefully the IG player is using target saturation to his advantage.

Would using Rapier batteries with quad heavy bolters work? Not ideal given 36" range and low mobility, as bikes can dart in range then back out again - but they can deny large areas of board to the Eldar, in theory, while being at least relatively resilient and useful against other targets, and not particularly expensive points-wise.

More useful in Maelstrom games where the Eldar might actually have to come in range of the artillery position, I suspect.

That reminds me of fortifications. They are largely immune to S6, so it might be possible to get some board denial with them.

Land raider redeemer with Deathwing knights and Ezekiel inside. Ezekiel mindworms champion, deathwing knights are T5 with special ability, 2+ and 3++. On the charge they get 15 attacks, and can charge to str 10. Could also use belial with Thunder Hammer. and challenge.

AnomanderRake wrote:CSM have the Typhon and Sicarans too, though unfortunately the Legacies of Ruin in IA13 don't include one that gives Ignores Cover.


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Land Raider Prometheus is impervious to Scabikes and has an auspex for everyone else, might be worth looking into. Problem with trusting your Land Raider or Typhon is the abundance of D weapons on the other side of the Jetbikes.

already on the list though you are correct in that I didn't put it in CSM as I find the lack of ignore cover making it not much better than just battlecannons (which are now added)

A Town Called Malus wrote:The HYMP broadsides don't need ignores cover as their missiles don't get past the 3+ armour save, so the attached commander doesn't actually contribute to the unit (unless you also have them with twin-linked plasma rifles, in which case carry on but you need to get closer which will be difficult). Also, the Puretide chip doesn't give ignores cover, it's the one that gives out tank hunter, counter-attack etc. so if that's on there for other reasons then carry on.

For Tau, I'd say a possibility is the Farsight 7 man bodyguard team with buffmander/buff'vre and a load of drones as ablative wounds.

So many twin-linked ignores cover plasma rifles...

I forget, can you deep strike all of them close enough (thought there was a broadside in there)? and in the end, isn't it the same effectively as a bunch of crisis suits with plasma + farsight enclaves?

I'll correct the broadsides entry

Eggzavier wrote:Necron Nightbringer may be too short range if taken as itself.

If taken in a conclave though, you can DS it, should be close enough to get in a PotC'Tan and a gaze of death. Plus 6 S5 AP3 shots from the crypteks that are with it.

It'll also be T8 if you build the conclave correctly.

Another thing: Necron Doom Scythe formation. They'll get some S10 AP1 blasts, and one of them will deviate less. Add to that the Tesla Destructors, and the formation can reduce their leadership to a 7, which might make them run after getting some hits in, and also pairs well with the aforementioned gaze of death.

Sort of a hybrid in the Shooting/Melee counter:

Catacomb Command Barge: Kitted out, you can get a S7 AP2 one use only flamer, an AP3 2 shot heavy guass cannon, and/or a staff of light on the overlord riding. For the melee list, it can move 12" and flat out 18", so it should be able to catch them and the scatter laser can't touch the Barge's AV13.

how do you build this conclave? I am not familar with crypteks that can attach with a C'tan. Please elaborate on the rules on this one. I might have overlooked it in the codex.

the command barge does not make this list since it is too short ranged. Someone else please make a melee counter if you want. I'm sticking with a narrow view to stay on topic.

Co'tor Shas wrote:The tau XV109 Y'vahra might do rather well. It's pretty tough, very mobile, and it's plasma flamer will ignore their armour and save, and has a 6" torrent to extend the range. Also has another 3 shots with the ionic discarge cannon at 12", which ignore armour and blind them, if you then want to charge and attack them.

the ranges are a tad too short to make this list technically though I guess I'll add it as an honorable mention. 6' move + 12' torrent +6 ' flamer = 24' only so it's not as great as I'd initially thought (according to experimnental rules on forgeworld)

Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:For orks flash gitz might come in handy. It a lot of S5 shots and half the time you ignore armor and they can take a battle wagon as a transport.

Deff koptas with twin rokkits are almost just as fast, have 4+ armor and 2 wounds.

hrm... good ideas. 12' truck (fast vehicle move) and then typical ork shooting with snazguns can sorta work. I'll add it in as a runner up. deffkoptas are not putting out the amount of dakka necessary to make this list with rockets or shootas honestly.

ProwlerPC wrote:I'm a bit dissapointed with the range of their snazguns but they are essentially Nobz with 2 wounds each. They look amazing and I'm certainly going to pick up some for painting but as soon as they lose the mobility of their transport I fear those bikes will have no issue staying out of range while still being able to reach them with their own guns.

Deff Koptas are Orks version of jetbikes. I'm juggling the idea of getting them or buggies. Hard to say. Maybe/probably both.

it's still 24' + 12' truck move but ya... that AV10 vs all the str6 isn't gonna last long lol.

Jimsolo wrote:I might have missed it, but was there a reason Torment Grenade Launchers and the Archangel of Pain aren't on the list for Dark Eldar?

Also, Harlequins: a Shadowseer with the Mask of Secrets and Psychic Shriek (and/or Terrify) could do some serious damage to the new bikes. Death is Not Enough on the Death Jesters could seriously hurt the bikes too, especially given that they are likely to be hanging around backfield and that they flee farther than other units.

I'm not familar with the torment grenade launcher or harliquins and how to get it into range. Are you deep striking something with this plan? I'm not familar with the archangel of pain so you'll have to explain it a bit for me please. I can't really add it without knowing how it'd work or where to put it in terms of strength of counter. All I really know of harliquins is that stupid blitz thing from solitares and how annoying shadowseers make long range shooting lol.

MarsNZ wrote:As an addition to what's already stated about the Wyvern, Jink is useless against it, and if you take Renegades you can field batteries of 5 and each tank is 10pts cheaper to boot. 20x twin-linked shredding cover-ignoring barrage small blasts. All for slightly more than a Land Raider.

It's already on the list.

Col. Dash wrote:My Wyvern battery did really well at wiping small squads of bikes out this past weekend. They accounted for 90% of the kills in both squads. Admittingly their first volley only killed two of a 5 man unit but the rest of the volleys did major damage to both units I was against. That said, it was a wraith list and the bikes were pretty much the only thing worth shooting at with them in the entire list.

I think that if 10 man bikes become a thing, Wyverns will be a great weapon to use. Especially as hopefully the IG player is using target saturation to his advantage.

target saturation meaning what exactly in this case? that the wyverns have too many targets?

The Kremlin wrote:Would using Rapier batteries with quad heavy bolters work? Not ideal given 36" range and low mobility, as bikes can dart in range then back out again - but they can deny large areas of board to the Eldar, in theory, while being at least relatively resilient and useful against other targets, and not particularly expensive points-wise.

More useful in Maelstrom games where the Eldar might actually have to come in range of the artillery position, I suspect.

the quad heavy bolters are kind of OK and heavy bolters are already on the list so it's not too crazy if you can get enough shots downrange but you aren't ignoring armor or cover but just wound saturation.

Co'tor Shas wrote:That reminds me of fortifications. They are largely immune to S6, so it might be possible to get some board denial with them.

true, and I like the fortifications but that's a different list than this one. trying to stay with just the weapons. we can have other threads on how to survive 100+ str 6 shots per turn.

Doctadeth wrote:Land raider redeemer with Deathwing knights and Ezekiel inside. Ezekiel mindworms champion, deathwing knights are T5 with special ability, 2+ and 3++. On the charge they get 15 attacks, and can charge to str 10. Could also use belial with Thunder Hammer. and challenge.

I think alot of folks are interested in a melee counter to jetbikes but its outside the scope of this particular list. Feel free to start a seperate discussion on melee and or ways to kill wraithknights. I find I can't manage to moderate more than one thread a day if I wanna keep my day job lol.

 sudojoe wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:The HYMP broadsides don't need ignores cover as their missiles don't get past the 3+ armour save, so the attached commander doesn't actually contribute to the unit (unless you also have them with twin-linked plasma rifles, in which case carry on but you need to get closer which will be difficult). Also, the Puretide chip doesn't give ignores cover, it's the one that gives out tank hunter, counter-attack etc. so if that's on there for other reasons then carry on.

For Tau, I'd say a possibility is the Farsight 7 man bodyguard team with buffmander/buff'vre and a load of drones as ablative wounds.

So many twin-linked ignores cover plasma rifles...

I forget, can you deep strike all of them close enough (thought there was a broadside in there)? and in the end, isn't it the same effectively as a bunch of crisis suits with plasma + farsight enclaves?

I'll correct the broadsides entry

Oh, I didn't mean his Farsight Enclaves command team (which yes, does have a broadside in it). But Farsight also has a special rule (whether taken as Farsight Enclaves or from Codex: Tau Empire) where his standard Shas'vre Bodyguard unit can have up to 7 members, rather than the usual maximum of 2 for other Crisis commanders.

Combine with pinpoint deepstrike from Farsights warlord trait and that gives you a lot of plasma (and fusion if you wanted to kill some tanks) you can drop into enemy lines. Make sure to have enough target locks to allow split fire and prevent massive overkill (no point in pointing 25 plasma rifles at a unit of three jetbikes, after all).

Though they would be susceptible to any Strength D which the Eldar player had, so killing that would also be vitally important.

got'cha. updated and credited. It's basically the farsight bomb all over again lol. They need more split fire to get at the other things.

I'm debating between melta or plasma on all the suits to hopefully target something like a wraithknight nearby too.

TGL's and the Archangel of Pain both require a Ld test, and cause a wound (with no cover or armor saves) for each point by which the test is failed. This is made much better by the ability of the Dark Eldar/Harlequins to stack negative modifiers out the wazoo. (Each Haemmy coven formation projects a stacking 12" -1, the Shadowseer can take a 12" -2 as well as applying a further -1 from Terrify, and any Codex DE HQ can take a 6" -2. The Shadowseer can also take Psychic Shriek, which is even more effective than the TGL or Archangel of Pain.

All of these units have access to Deep Strike, and the DE HQs can take a Webway Portal to negate scatter. You could theoretically drop a Raider in with four HQs aboard (provided that you are taking a Harlequin, DE, and Covens detachment) which can cause 3d6-one unit's Ld in wounds (no saves for bikes) in the psychic phase, followed by a different unit suffering a TGL hit (Ld test, 1 wound-unsavable for bikes-per point it is failed by), as well as every unit within range of the Archangel of Pain suffering the same (although THIS test must be taken with a further -2 due to the Archangel's special rules). The unit inside the Raider (a unit of Harlies works well, as would a unit of Grotesques, who could potentially add another -1 to the equation) is also still free to shoot, although the Shadowseer can use his own Hallucinogen Grenade Launcher to throw out an attack which causes a Pinning test if it even hits, and this can target a different unit than the two previously hit!

Furthermore, in the above example, units within 6" of any part of the Raider are at a -5 or -6 to Ld normally, those within 12" are at -3 or -4.

This is only one example. The Freakish Spectacle rule, Mask of Secrets, Archangel of Pain, and Armor of Misery play well with the Torment Grenade Launcher, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Hallucinogen Grenade Launcher, as well as the Death Jester's Death is Not Enough! rule and the Shadowseer's guarantee-able Psychic Shriek and potential Terrify. These can all be mixed and matched to devastating effect against infantry (the TGL, PGL, and Archangel do not work against models with ATSKNF or Fearless, but Eldar don't have those normally) to devastating effect, and if allied with Codex: Eldar or a Corsairs army, the leadership-based tactics get even more gruesome.

(For reference, the Codex: Dark Eldar selections in the last paragraph are in Red, the Harlequins in Pink, and the Covens in Blue, with the selections that both DE forces can take in Purple.)

(Although I didn't list it in the example unit, the Death Jester pairs well in this grouping. Any unit he wounds must take a Morale test with a -2 penalty, and upon failure will flee in a direction of the Death Jester's choosing, strongly increasing the chances the bikes will flee off the board.)

Conclave of the Burning One is a Necron formation in the Shield of Baal: Exterminatus book.

You pair two crypteks (which can take any wargear options / artifacts as normal) with a C'Tan Shard (Nightbringer, obviously). The three become one unit, cannot seperate, and no other ICs can join the unit for the game.

The crypteks get to use the C'Tan's toughness though when determining to wound rolls. (T7 normally, T8 if one of the crypteks takes a god shackle, a 10pt upgrade). The crypteks also give the C'Tan a point of FNP each (5+ when both are alive),

This also allows the unit to DS, since you can give one of the crypteks the Veil of Darkness, and the other one can take the Solar Staff, which makes everything else snap shoot at the unit once per game.

Of course, they still only move 6" once they land, but they should wipe out a squad of bikes the turn they paradrop in.

How about the Dominous Triple Bombard?

moving it will throw a ST 10 AP 3 large blast up to 36 inchs, but standing still it'll throw a apocalyptic template (the clover) with 3 hits at a much greater range (60" max) same ST and AP.

Might saturate the area enough to hopefully wipe out some bikes.


Also. The Imperial Armor: Vol 1, 2nd Edition Hydra Flak Tank still holds the Auto Targeting System ability that ignores jink saves or cover saves made by super sonic or Jink (or something along those lines, can't remember the exact thing). A squadron of them still throws out plenty of Autocannon shots and with the Anti-Jink ability might be able to bring them down. Or at least kill a bunch.

If absolutely needed I suppose 9 of them (all 3 Heavy support taken up) could hold them at bay for a period of time.

The Praetor Launcher with its Firestorm missiles of ST 6 AP 4 ignore cover, 7inch blast Twin Linked Barrage Ordenance 2 might be able to burn enough of the bikes to make them think twice. Not to mention its extreame range would help it hit the bikes multiple times before they get close enough.

Even its Foehammer rockets (anti tank rockets): with battle cannon stats ST 8 AP 3, with barrage, TL, Ordinance, 2 large blasts Could remove chunks of the Bikes group.

Plasma Blastguns like from the Stormblade or the Omega Pattern Blast gun on the Omega Macharius might throw enough plasma templates to mlet the jetbikes through sheer number of saves.


Edit:
The new Icarus Array mounted on the Skittarii Dunewalker while its short ranged for an AA weapon (I think) is still longer range then Jetbike weapons like the scatter cannon. Unleashing its weapons into jetbikes all of which have skyfire could kill plenty of bikes, squadroned into 3s the walkers could hold back the tide and their invul save for standing close to each other might stave off some of the glances they will defiantly get when bombarded by the Scatter cannon (hopefully frontally!)

The XV107 R’varna might be useful as well. It has two large blasts at 60", and will hit bikes twice at S7 for each model under the blast. Assuming 3-4 bikes under each blast, that could mean something like 16 hits a turn from each one. That would mean 4.4 dead bikes are turn as I make it out, not the best, but better than nothing.


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Also, how much is a sinlgr bike+gun, I'd like to see if it makes it's points back.

Another IMO good counter for Tau is the Skyray. With 3 markerlights (out of which the Skyray itself provides 2 at BS 4) you can fire 6 s8 ap3 Seeker Missiles at BS 5 with Ignore Cover. This results in about 4.2 deadbikes, almost makimg the Skyray's points back (4 bikes are 108, skyray is 115) and forcing a Ld check. After the missiles are spent, Skyray still provides 2 markerlights and a SMS.

I can see any battle cannon equivalent being useful as well.

Orks have Lobbas that can kill a couple of bikes per shooting. Considering the lobba's point cost, range, t7 3+, ammo runts and ability to snipe out warlocks, i'd consider mass lobbas to be the weapon of choice against both bikers and bunched up wraithguards. Much better than lootas i think.

Also, as mentioned above, Flashgitz might be fine. Te thing with gitz is that they have d6 AP and bikes have to jink before you actually make a shooting attack, so they can't know if they WILL need that jink or not. So, even if you screw up with rolls, you still tickle the eldar's nerves. The downside is they're 24" which jetbikes laugh at. They eat up HS slots that are very valuable for orkses. Gitz are very expensive, squishy and fully rely on transports. Thus, you need either a battlewaron or a gun wagon. BW are also expensive and gun wagons eat up another HS slot. Yes, you can squadron them but the squadron will get easier eliminated by eldar firepower. Furthermore, Gitz in opentopped transports will get one-shotted by D-Scythe squad that would cost half their price.

Thus, i think gitz are not an option.

A squad of 10 lootas has a potential to kill from 0.74 to 2.22 bikes. Statistically. And they even don't force bikes to jink. That's for a 150 pt squad that's gona get erazed by return fire next turn. Not great.

Lootas are also not an option imo.

Tankbustas are not very point-efficient against jinking bikers but they can pull a wound or two on a wraithknight and can potentially do something with wraiths and serpents. So, taking them in a gun wagon might be an option. And they're allready in many ork lists. 24 range, though and are once again super vulnerable to scythes in OT transports. But better than gitz and lootas as they're much cheaper than gitz, more mobile lootas and more universal than both of them.

So, all we've really got are lobbas and tankbustas, kmk to force eldar jink. Nothing to actually counter but can try to deal with them. And if you're lucky, can even kill enough to make them less frightening.

 koooaei wrote:
Orks have Lobbas that can kill a couple of bikes per shooting. Considering the lobba's point cost, range, t7 3+, ammo runts and ability to snipe out warlocks, i'd consider mass lobbas to be the weapon of choice against both bikers and bunched up wraithguards. Much better than lootas i think.

Also, as mentioned above, Flashgitz might be fine. Te thing with gitz is that they have d6 AP and bikes have to jink before you actually make a shooting attack, so they can't know if they WILL need that jink or not. So, even if you screw up with rolls, you still tickle the eldar's nerves. The downside is they're 24" which jetbikes laugh at. They eat up HS slots that are very valuable for orkses. Gitz are very expensive, squishy and fully rely on transports. Thus, you need either a battlewaron or a gun wagon. BW are also expensive and gun wagons eat up another HS slot. Yes, you can squadron them but the squadron will get easier eliminated by eldar firepower. Furthermore, Gitz in opentopped transports will get one-shotted by D-Scythe squad that would cost half their price.

Thus, i think gitz are not an option.

A squad of 10 lootas has a potential to kill from 0.74 to 2.22 bikes. Statistically. And they even don't force bikes to jink. That's for a 150 pt squad that's gona get erazed by return fire next turn. Not great.

Lootas are also not an option imo.

Tankbustas are not very point-efficient against jinking bikers but they can pull a wound or two on a wraithknight and can potentially do something with wraiths and serpents. So, taking them in a gun wagon might be an option. And they're allready in many ork lists. 24 range, though and are once again super vulnerable to scythes in OT transports. But better than gitz and lootas as they're much cheaper than gitz, more mobile lootas and more universal than both of them.

So, all we've really got are lobbas and tankbustas, kmk to force eldar jink.

I know this is kinda reaching for LoW and FW again. But a friend of mine runs Orks and I don't want him to be grasping at straws if the local Eldar players use mass jetbikes (of which several actually have the jetbikes to in theory attempt it, maybe not WYSIWYG per model, but certainly enough bikes!).

But what about a Killabursta with the D Gun (Which I built my friend one) or the Kill Blasta with the Giga-Shooter that might spit out enough bullets to do serious damage.

That or maybe the Kill Krusha tank maybe? I can't recall its shell types but Im sure ONE of them could be used to make holes in jetbike groups.

That or mounting a Supa Cannon to a Battlewagon maybe? I don't know the stats but a gun of THAT size must be able to throw a big template and plenty of ST and AP Dakka for 'urtin' dem twiggy Eldar.

I don't think that big expensive tanks are an option against D-weapons in the first place. Remember, they can one-shot your 400+ pt tank with a 120 pt squad up close or a 295 pt wraithknight from across the board.

Even worse with stompa as it's combo with a KFF and meks is around 1000 pt.

Yep, if there are no D-weapons, tank could work. It will not work if there are. So, if ranged D-weaposns are allowed, don't think that ANY big ork vehicles can work.

You could potentially get a MFF mek and hope he doesn't roll 6-s but the combination is very expensive once again.

Chaos lord or sorc jump pack burning brand s4 ap3 torrent in a unit of raptors with a couple of flamers ds in and burn and if a sorc with telep psy shiek as well. Mark them as slaanesh for fnp banner and they could become a real pain to shift.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I can see any battle cannon equivalent being useful as well.

Max spacing, yo!

I'd not go for flamers with raptors. It's not a good weapon for a deepstriking squad that can't mitigate scatter.

Not sure if psy powers ar an answer cause eldar have good psychic protection via a ton of psy dice here and there and psychers in most valuable squads.

Anywayz, Tzeenc is worth looking at with their s8 ap1 beam. You'll probably kill one of your own guyz but...why not! Can also destroy serpents that would carry wraiths.

 sudojoe wrote:

Co'tor Shas wrote:

Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:For orks flash gitz might come in handy. It a lot of S5 shots and half the time you ignore armor and they can take a battle wagon as a transport.

Deff koptas with twin rokkits are almost just as fast, have 4+ armor and 2 wounds.

hrm... good ideas. 12' truck (fast vehicle move) and then typical ork shooting with snazguns can sorta work. I'll add it in as a runner up. deffkoptas are not putting out the amount of dakka necessary to make this list with rockets or shootas honestly.

ProwlerPC wrote:I'm a bit dissapointed with the range of their snazguns but they are essentially Nobz with 2 wounds each. They look amazing and I'm certainly going to pick up some for painting but as soon as they lose the mobility of their transport I fear those bikes will have no issue staying out of range while still being able to reach them with their own guns.

Deff Koptas are Orks version of jetbikes. I'm juggling the idea of getting them or buggies. Hard to say. Maybe/probably both.

it's still 24' + 12' truck move but ya... that AV10 vs all the str6 isn't gonna last long lol.

I don't think I saw this mentioned but I may have missed it. If you are going with the 12' vehicle move with 24' range, 10 Necron Warriors in a Ghost Ark at AV 13 (until something pops the quantum sheilds, then its still an AV 11) can put some hurt on even if you only get 20 shots out of it at range (salvo 10 from the ark with relentless and 10 from the crons inside as it's an open topped vehicle)

th3maninblak wrote:Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but fragioso dreads in pods? 2 of them should be able to wipe 2 bike squads on the drop, or at least weaken them enough to not matter. Wounds on 2s, averages 3-4 hits per shot even with spacing, so 6 to 8 rending hits that ignore cover. Throw in a heavy flamer and watch those space pansies vaporize.

I'll add it in as well and credited

JimOnMars wrote:Ork Weirdboy spam may take them out. If your opponent allows multiple CADs, take a lot of weirdboyz in a unit of boyz. Then use Da Jump to get the unit close and Power Vomit (S7 AP2 Template) to fry away.

I'll add it in and credited.

Camundongo wrote:The Infernal Relic Predator for Chaos in IA13 can take a AP3 autocannon and rending HB side sponsons, which might be useful for forcing the bikes to jink?

Didn't know this one, added and credited.


Also fixed the error with the HYMP's. As to the skyray issue, it already says that it will require additional ML to do that particulra manuver.

As to the meleeing jetbikes option, I've decided not to include that in this list. We should make a seperate thread on melee options vs bikes.

As to the oblisk, I'm not entirely sure about that thing as locally we don't allow it to shoot as a turret but your local meta may vary. The board denial is indeed useful and I like it. Since it can deep strike, I'll include it but it's not my personal favorite now a days lol. Also, with the way things are going, alot of folks are going to be using D-scythes + DE perfect deep strikes to wipe out anything super heavy. Don't need the Wraith Knight at all now a days actually.

I like all the out of the box thinking we got going on here. Hopefully it'll help some folks find some options that they may not have thought of to fight bikes in the future.

Sicaran, doesn't ignore cover, it ignores jink.

Space Marines - legion of the damned. All weapons ignore cover, deep strike them.

Go unbound and bring 2 squads of 3 gravturians. Put each one in a drop pod with a bad ass Libby. Tigirius or loath and give them ignores cover and prescience

Also, FW imperial Armor 2 2nd edition, allows Space Marines to purchase upgrades for vehicles and super heavies called legacies of war.

You can purchase one legacy of war for one vehicle every 1000 points. Can only give one legacy of war to one vehicle.
One of the legacies you can purchase is Ignores Cover for like 25points.

Find a weapon platform you like and give it ignores cover.

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
Sicaran, doesn't ignore cover, it ignores jink.

Space Marines - legion of the damned. All weapons ignore cover, deep strike them.

Go unbound and bring 2 squads of 3 gravturians. Put each one in a drop pod with a bad ass Libby. Tigirius or loath and give them ignores cover and prescience

Also, FW imperial Armor 2 2nd edition, allows Space Marines to purchase upgrades for vehicles and super heavies called legacies of war.

You can purchase one legacy of war for one vehicle every 1000 points. Can only give one legacy of war to one vehicle.
One of the legacies you can purchase is Ignores Cover for like 25points.

Find a weapon platform you like and give it ignores cover.

those are already on the list as is the list of legacy of wars and the ignore cover only applies to blasts but it's in there already

sudojoe wrote:
As to the oblisk, I'm not entirely sure about that thing as locally we don't allow it to shoot as a turret but your local meta may vary. The board denial is indeed useful and I like it. Since it can deep strike, I'll include it but it's not my personal favorite now a days lol. Also, with the way things are going, alot of folks are going to be using D-scythes + DE perfect deep strikes to wipe out anything super heavy. Don't need the Wraith Knight at all now a days actually.

Honestly, I can hope that that's what people will do. Guard or anyone else that can afford some cheap blobs can laugh at the hubris of an eldar player that thinks perfect deep strike will get him close to things of value every time. (Rememeber at max spacing, it only takes 12 small bases to cover a square foot of table.)

Speaking of guard, the stormlord can fire 30 S5AP3 shots. They're BS3 and don't ignore cover, but you can split fire half at a unit and half at another. It's an average of 10 wounds total, which means on average, you forced two squads to jink and still killed 5 bikes. The sponsons can then target a third unit and force them to jink as well, and up to 20 of the 40 passengers can fire while embarked on your AV14 vehicle which can accomodate multiple units. (So really, it and its passengers could force 4+ squads to jink while still wiping about a third of them out or more depending on the passengers.) Assuming your opponent didn't bring all the D weapons and you can set up enough bubble wrap around your tank, it might live long enough to ruin someone's day. Oh, and while you can't twin-link the passenger's guns with a divination psyker, you could easily do that for the tank itself giving you another 5 (or 2.5 if jinking) wounds from the main gun and a kill or two from the sponsons.

(OK... now I kind of want to assemble mine. I didn't want to be TFG, but I think against Eldar it's actually a balanced choice.)

Actually... this is the part where things get broken. If you attach multiple techmarines/techpriests/whatever to three servitors, RAW, each of them gets to repair a hull point on like a 2+. It's expensive, but a super heavy that repairs 3-4 HP a turn and can ignore the bikers while sheltering 40 dudes is a scary thing if you can keep the D weapons at bay.

If you don't go that route, then I still think the low AP weapons' best bet would be to take MSU that do just enough damage that the enemy will want to jink. Then if he jinks, either your next unit forces the same choice on a second squad or you get free ignores cover. With the lasers not being twin-linked forcing a jink negates 75% of the unit's offensive potential for a turn. If you can find ways to do that cheaply enough, that's better than trying to send 600-800 points at the unit only to see those points wiped by a D weapon the next turn.

That's just mean.

If we're presuming the Jetbikes are backed up by a WK, then I get to back up my Obelisk with Spyders.
Keeping in mind it'll have IWND, and the Spyders will likely be screened.. (If they want to get around the Obelisk LOS, they'll have to take the dangerous terrain test), it'll be extremely hard to kill without a lucky 6, plus it provides protection from witchfires and etc.

You'll almost always get AT LEAST one Tesla sphere off, and likely a second if they're really massing the bikes. Just my opinion


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alternative:

Use formation with two Mono's and an Obelisk.
Deploy behind enemy lines, activate both Eternity Gate's and deploy two full troop squads of your choice. Eliminate WK. Then laugh because no matter what happens to your troops after, your Obelisk and Mono's obliterate the jetbikes with impunity.

Oh, other fun thing you can do with a Stormlord. Add a DA character with a PFG to the blob wrapped around it. Now you have a 4++. It won't help with the rolls of a 6 on the D weapons, but the 2-5 are now only 1 HP on average.

You could also have 20 of the non-shooting models pop out of it in any given turn and replace the blob around it preventing the enemy from approaching closer than 7" (so no melta, and deep striking D-Scythes will be hard pressed to get the whole unit within range).

I'm starting to think that they key to defeating the cheesiest Eldar lists is having a few AV13-14 front and sides tanks along with enough firepower to kill the wraithknights. Once you get those down, the bikes are a mere annoyance to your tanks unless they can get behind you. 13/11/10 are OK, but you really need to hide them between some 14/13/??s or terrain and only show the AV 13 side.

In this regard, I almost think not buying the sponsons might be the better bet for things. People talk about the Relic Sicaran with lasers, and ceramite, and the legacy, but you're probably better off just having two of them for slightly more points (Assuming multi-CAD is allowed in your meta.)

Otherwise, guard can field a bunch of Lehman Russes and a Stormlord and enough cheap infantry to last until the enemy has done his deep striking. By my math, a 2'x4' deployment zone could be completely filled with 96 troops if it contains nothing else (like no terrain and tanks). If you deploy on your own back line, you don't really need the full 12"+ buffer against deep strikers, but really you just need to protect the super heavy. A command unit + 3 separate LRs would require the enemy to bring 4 different sets of D weapons into range. If your enemy's army can do that, bikes are the least of your problems.

 ProwlerPC wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

A squad of 10 lootas has a potential to kill from 0.74 to 2.22 bikes. Statistically. And they even don't force bikes to jink. That's for a 150 pt squad that's gona get erazed by return fire next turn. Not great.

Lootas are also not an option imo.

Lootas are 14 pts each now and you can bring up to 15 in a squad now so it's 15-45 shots per turn instead of 10-30. (I'm guessing they used to be 15 pts each and only a squad of 10 from your post)

They used to cost 15 ppm but could still be taken in 5-15 squas. I'm talking about 10 cause it's the most common ammount of lootas you see on board. It's way harder to effectively hide a larger squad, remain spread out to avoid blasts and keep everyone within los / not giving easy cover at the same time.

15 will simply kill 1.5 times more, right? So, 1.11 - 3.33. That's 59.94 of bikes on average from a 210 pt squad. 210 pt of bikes will put 17.28 wounds on lootas before cover. So, if you're camping ruins, it's 8.64 dead lootas - 120.96 pt of dead lootas in cover! Than lootas have ld7 to not run away.

 Ferros wrote:
If we're presuming the Jetbikes are backed up by a WK, then I get to back up my Obelisk with Spyders.
Keeping in mind it'll have IWND, and the Spyders will likely be screened.. (If they want to get around the Obelisk LOS, they'll have to take the dangerous terrain test), it'll be extremely hard to kill without a lucky 6, plus it provides protection from witchfires and etc.

You'll almost always get AT LEAST one Tesla sphere off, and likely a second if they're really massing the bikes. Just my opinion


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alternative:

Use formation with two Mono's and an Obelisk.
Deploy behind enemy lines, activate both Eternity Gate's and deploy two full troop squads of your choice. Eliminate WK. Then laugh because no matter what happens to your troops after, your Obelisk and Mono's obliterate the jetbikes with impunity.

If you're going to use Spyders, why not use the Tesseract Vault instead? 3 more HP and a selection of guns that can threaten both the WK and the bikes.

EDIT: Also,

How about the Valkyrie Missile pods, surely the bikes would suffer under two large blasts? It would also force a Ld check if a few died.

Tesseract Vault could do a lot of damage for 2 reasons.

A) you target the bikes with C'tan powers, ask if they want to jink, then find out if you get an AP3 large blast, either they jink, or potentially take a lot of damage. On top of that, if you dont get the AP3, you're still killing a few bikes (assault 20 S6/Apocalyptic barrage/ Apocalytic Blast/ 2 dead bikes D/2-6 dead bikes las cannon)

And B) if there is another threat involved, eg. WK, target it, and either it gets hurt by the big guns, or the blasts hurt everything around it. Then theres the Tesla spheres.

Problems are, 1) 550 points, and loses obelisk dangerous terrain bubble,
2) its a big 9 HP super heavy, you might as well add in almost all titans at this stage.

The obelisk is just sort of a bigger (super heavy) monolith, it would be more accpetable to pull out in a TAC game.

EDIT: Also ,

Noise marines with sonic blasters and blastmasters will make them cry a bit

seige dreads in pods with their flamestorm cannons could put in some work

 koooaei wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

A squad of 10 lootas has a potential to kill from 0.74 to 2.22 bikes. Statistically. And they even don't force bikes to jink. That's for a 150 pt squad that's gona get erazed by return fire next turn. Not great.

Lootas are also not an option imo.

Lootas are 14 pts each now and you can bring up to 15 in a squad now so it's 15-45 shots per turn instead of 10-30. (I'm guessing they used to be 15 pts each and only a squad of 10 from your post)

They used to cost 15 ppm but could still be taken in 5-15 squas. I'm talking about 10 cause it's the most common ammount of lootas you see on board. It's way harder to effectively hide a larger squad, remain spread out to avoid blasts and keep everyone within los / not giving easy cover at the same time.

15 will simply kill 1.5 times more, right? So, 1.11 - 3.33. That's 59.94 of bikes on average from a 210 pt squad. 210 pt of bikes will put 17.28 wounds on lootas before cover. So, if you're camping ruins, it's 8.64 dead lootas - 120.96 pt of dead lootas in cover! Than lootas have ld7 to not run away.

Ughh true true. Darn leadership too. I'd say the sqaud in my hand will be minus one Loota and plus one character so would probably be a bit more expensive. A sort of character tax to mitigate the mob rule and fulfill one of it's prereqs. Sigh this opens my eyes to their performance on 3+ non vehicle units.

Great thread. Refreshing to see solutions coming through now.

Looking back at the Deredeo with its new plasma option, it can fire 7 AP2-3 shots at 36"+ and it has BS5. Buy it the jink ignoring legacy and you have some dead bikes.

OTOH, the cannon option is much better at killing flyers and you could have Skyfire and Interceptor (I hear one of the new eldar weapons is mounted on a flyer).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that I think if it, is there a reason the Fire Raptor would be unable to take the Jink ignoring legacy?

Imho jetbikes seen in a vacuum aren't such a huge problem, but integrated inside the rest of the eldar army they will present a threat much greater than themselves alone. Nonetheless great thread .

Mavnas wrote:
Looking back at the Deredeo with its new plasma option, it can fire 7 AP2-3 shots at 36"+ and it has BS5. Buy it the jink ignoring legacy and you have some dead bikes.

OTOH, the cannon option is much better at killing flyers and you could have Skyfire and Interceptor (I hear one of the new eldar weapons is mounted on a flyer).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that I think if it, is there a reason the Fire Raptor would be unable to take the Jink ignoring legacy?

Space Marine Fire Raptors can take it no problem, it's a flying tank after all.

Hmm.. the deredeo has the benefit of Interceptor meaning it would pop an incomming Hemlock before it can use its Str D weapons.

Here's a simple solution and it's so amazing it will blow your mind. Refuse to play eldar; quit justifying and trying to explain away gw's inability to write a reasonable eldar codex and plant your foot in the ground and say no to their shenanigans.

Arguing the point of playing eldar is like arguing about wether it's right or wrong to so hard drugs or not. I don't care if you haven't died on your last meth binge it doesn't make it any less stupid to do the drug in the first place. If you have to justify anything about it your the one who's a glutton for punishment.

 ionusx wrote:
Here's a simple solution and it's so amazing it will blow your mind. Refuse to play eldar; quit justifying and trying to explain away gw's inability to write a reasonable eldar codex and plant your foot in the ground and say no to their shenanigans.

Arguing the point of playing eldar is like arguing about wether it's right or wrong to so hard drugs or not. I don't care if you haven't died on your last meth binge it doesn't make it any less stupid to do the drug in the first place. If you have to justify anything about it your the one who's a glutton for punishment.

Meth is cheaper and less addictive than 40K.

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:
seige dreads in pods with their flamestorm cannons could put in some work

Spending 170 points to kill 81 (if you're a little lucky) isn't a solution.

-Matt

A very expensive solution, but a thunderhawk gunship has a 7" AP3 blast that you could give ignores cover. It's also got 2 lascannons and 4 TL heavy bolters, and for 60 points you can give it 6 S6 AP4 bombs. If you really want to spend some points you can make it a GK thunderhawk with 4 TL psycannons for an additional 105 pts. The base SM model costs 25 scatbikes though, so it could be difficult to make your points back, and as soon as they jink that have no better target than your AV12 points brick. 25 bikes will snapfire for 2.78 hullpoints off AV12, so hopefully you've got some techmarines in there and you killed some of the bikes.

EDIT: Additionally you could just give the ignores cover legacy to a reaver or warhound Titan. Blow away the D-weapons with your own then shoot the bikes.

I think there is an interesting dichotomy people haven't noticed in the general knee jerk reaction to the windriders ability to take heavy weapons on each bike. This dichotomy being that the old 3 naked jetbikes without upgrades is still actually the best configuration for quick objective snatches. What made the windrider units so effective at snatching objectives was to keep it in reserve/out of LoS until you needed it and then turbo boost it onto the objective. The addition of scatter lasers or shu catapults is in direct contrast to this paradigm. The unit becomes 60% more expensive and gains no additional abilities to turbo boost onto objectives. What this does do however is make the unit an extremely effective shooting unit with sub par durability. The most amusing part of this split purpose is the warlock. For a very reasonable price you can increase the durability of the unit and possible get a fix for the unit's morale issues but you further sink points into a unit which you will be sorely tempted to turbo boost to an objective and hide out of LoS.

There has been a complete loss of reason when talking about the windrider units. Some of the obvious double think going on;
*Windrider units are always at 36" range (which would mean rear board edge most games) but they require wiping out all their models. In reality ~30% of the time it will take 2 dead windriders and the unit will break and run off the board if kept at 36"+ from the opponent. This actually gets worse for the windriders the more windrider units the CWE player takes as they take up a lot of space on the board.
*Windrider units are always out of LoS...are people really playing on boards with 5" solid walls all over the place? Even with JSJ the unit has to roll pretty well to meaningfully change their LoS without some pretty unusual terrain setup.
*Windrider units are always maximum spaced out...people keep assuming they are jumping out of LoS so how are they also spread out? IME it is usually one or the other.
*Windrider units can claim objectives all while staying 36" from enemy units. This is really ironic as maelstorm score as you go objectives (like the ITC) will inevitably bring these jetbike units within charge distanced if the CWE player wants to keep up. Maelstorm objectives are a lot of what makes melee type armies work in 7ed.

If we look at windrider units in a realistic light then really you just have to either force a jink or kill 25% of the unit (2 of a 5 windrider unit) from each unit of windriders. The jinking units will have little return fire and on average 38% of the morale tests will fail. In addition consider that jink has to be declared before you roll to hit. So the next time you consider a grey hunter unit with 2 plasma guns shooting at a windrider unit after jumping out of a drop pod you realize that they have a nearly 40% of breaking the windrider unit if it doesn't jink and if it does they own that bit of board for the next turn (and still have a decent chance to cause the necessary causalities). Windrider units are very high damage but very very fragile. IMO calling them MEQ is actually a disservice to understanding the situation as MEQ have morale control better than fearless.

In this light most of the options in this list are complete overkill for all but the biggest units. This is a very useful list to learn how to deal with a complete Saim-Hann army though. I could see larger units of 5 scatter laser bikes, 2 regular bikes, and a warlock manifesting shrouded being a very nasty unit.

Anyways, sorry for the long wall of text.

While that is a good point Ansacs, please consider that if you advance on the windrunners, you will be moving into the neighborhood of the D-Cannons. Massed S6 that wants to play the range game couples extremely well with mass indirect D blasts that rain down on anyone who advances.

It's a very rough combo to deal with.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
While that is a good point Ansacs, please consider that if you advance on the windrunners, you will be moving into the neighborhood of the D-Cannons. Massed S6 that wants to play the range game couples extremely well with mass indirect D blasts that rain down on anyone who advances.

It's a very rough combo to deal with.

Also, severely undercosted garganaught MC.

HawaiiMatt wrote:While that is a good point Ansacs, please consider that if you advance on the windrunners, you will be moving into the neighborhood of the D-Cannons. Massed S6 that wants to play the range game couples extremely well with mass indirect D blasts that rain down on anyone who advances.

It's a very rough combo to deal with.

koooaei wrote:Also, severely undercosted garganaught MC.

I agree that the synergy of the CWE codex is incredible. I also understand your point that in reality whole armies are being played. IMO the only real balance issue in the codex is the D weapons table, but that is an issue throughout all ranged D IMO.

The fact that some armies don't have any realistic counters to GMC is not an issue with the CWE codex but an issue with other poorly thought out codexes. This has been a low simmering issue since LoW were introduced and was already a concern with the nids GMC but the less than stellar nature of the rest of the codex obscured the issue until recently. Now it is just brought out into stark contrast.

However for a considerable number of the army builds there isn't any qualitative difference between the old wraithknight or D blasts and the new ones. To a grey hunter unit or a SM bike squad there isn't any difference between Str10 and D weapons. The wraithknight is also largely just +FnP for the armies that didn't use poison/snipers to deal with MCs, which is a lot of them actually.

Also in maelstorm there is just as much chance the opponent will have to close with me as I have to close with him. This is actually why IMO score as you go missions are a much better way to play the game. By their nature they are an equalizer between melee and ranged combat...totally another discussion though.

 ansacs wrote:

I agree that the synergy of the CWE codex is incredible.

Synergy is a wrong word here. Power creep - that's what it is.

When there are severely undercosted spammable GMC with D weapons, severely undercosted spammable troops that are tough and can shoot you from across the board, severely undercosted spammable elites with massed severely undercosted spammable d-weapons...it's called bad game design - not synergy.

TBH, GMC have always been stupidly powerful. Consider the Transcendent C'Tan in the previous cron book. T9 3+/4++ FNP. 6 wounds. Good luck with that. (Cent star was the only unit that could remove it in a turn. Entire armies could fail at this task.)

The WK is 1 less T and doesn't get the 4++, but it costs less than half as much, and if it's in cover, it might as well have the 4++.

Mavnas wrote:
TBH, GMC have always been stupidly powerful. Consider the Transcendent C'Tan in the previous cron book. T9 3+/4++ FNP. 6 wounds. Good luck with that. (Cent star was the only unit that could remove it in a turn. Entire armies could fail at this task.)

The WK is 1 less T and doesn't get the 4++, but it costs less than half as much, and if it's in cover, it might as well have the 4++.

It does get an invulnerable save when you take the Suncannon and D-Sword.

Yeah, so it's not quite as over the top ridiculous since S5 fire can hurt it, and there's more S5 high-RoF guns than there are S6 (unless you're eldar lol) so it's not as unkillable as the old C'Tan.

Mavnas wrote:
Yeah, so it's not quite as over the top ridiculous since S5 fire can hurt it, and there's more S5 high-RoF guns than there are S6 (unless you're eldar lol) so it's not as unkillable as the old C'Tan.

Yeah, you statistically just need 40,5 heavy bolter marines within 36" to kill a knight. 972 pts of devastator marines, so, i guess, no big deal for games where you're alowed to take 2 times more points than your opponent! Phew! Calm down, people.

Legion of the Damned have natural Ignores Cover. Probably best kitted out with Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon and Combi-grav.

EDIT: just noticed this was already suggested.

What about Vindicaire manning one of the new Plasma Obliterators? His Spy Mask grants Ignores Cover to all rolls to hit. Question is, does roll to scatter = roll to hit?

tau tse tung wrote:How about the Valkyrie Missile pods, surely the bikes would suffer under two large blasts? It would also force a Ld check if a few died.

Added to the list and credited

quickfuze wrote:Noise marines with sonic blasters and blastmasters will make them cry a bit

It's already on the list cept the number of blasts available to a squad and points keep it from top place.

Mavnas wrote:Oh, other fun thing you can do with a Stormlord. Add a DA character with a PFG to the blob wrapped around it. Now you have a 4++. It won't help with the rolls of a 6 on the D weapons, but the 2-5 are now only 1 HP on average.

You could also have 20 of the non-shooting models pop out of it in any given turn and replace the blob around it preventing the enemy from approaching closer than 7" (so no melta, and deep striking D-Scythes will be hard pressed to get the whole unit within range).

I'm starting to think that they key to defeating the cheesiest Eldar lists is having a few AV13-14 front and sides tanks along with enough firepower to kill the wraithknights. Once you get those down, the bikes are a mere annoyance to your tanks unless they can get behind you. 13/11/10 are OK, but you really need to hide them between some 14/13/??s or terrain and only show the AV 13 side.

In this regard, I almost think not buying the sponsons might be the better bet for things. People talk about the Relic Sicaran with lasers, and ceramite, and the legacy, but you're probably better off just having two of them for slightly more points (Assuming multi-CAD is allowed in your meta.)

Otherwise, guard can field a bunch of Lehman Russes and a Stormlord and enough cheap infantry to last until the enemy has done his deep striking. By my math, a 2'x4' deployment zone could be completely filled with 96 troops if it contains nothing else (like no terrain and tanks). If you deploy on your own back line, you don't really need the full 12"+ buffer against deep strikers, but really you just need to protect the super heavy. A command unit + 3 separate LRs would require the enemy to bring 4 different sets of D weapons into range. If your enemy's army can do that, bikes are the least of your problems.

I have really liked my stormlord for years and I definately agree. It was already on the list but I added in some of your information as well so additionally credited.

ansacs wrote:I think there is an interesting dichotomy people haven't noticed in the general knee jerk reaction to the windriders ability to take heavy weapons on each bike. This dichotomy being that the old 3 naked jetbikes without upgrades is still actually the best configuration for quick objective snatches. What made the windrider units so effective at snatching objectives was to keep it in reserve/out of LoS until you needed it and then turbo boost it onto the objective. The addition of scatter lasers or shu catapults is in direct contrast to this paradigm. The unit becomes 60% more expensive and gains no additional abilities to turbo boost onto objectives. What this does do however is make the unit an extremely effective shooting unit with sub par durability. The most amusing part of this split purpose is the warlock. For a very reasonable price you can increase the durability of the unit and possible get a fix for the unit's morale issues but you further sink points into a unit which you will be sorely tempted to turbo boost to an objective and hide out of LoS.

There has been a complete loss of reason when talking about the windrider units. Some of the obvious double think going on;
*Windrider units are always at 36" range (which would mean rear board edge most games) but they require wiping out all their models. In reality ~30% of the time it will take 2 dead windriders and the unit will break and run off the board if kept at 36"+ from the opponent. This actually gets worse for the windriders the more windrider units the CWE player takes as they take up a lot of space on the board.
*Windrider units are always out of LoS...are people really playing on boards with 5" solid walls all over the place? Even with JSJ the unit has to roll pretty well to meaningfully change their LoS without some pretty unusual terrain setup.
*Windrider units are always maximum spaced out...people keep assuming they are jumping out of LoS so how are they also spread out? IME it is usually one or the other.
*Windrider units can claim objectives all while staying 36" from enemy units. This is really ironic as maelstorm score as you go objectives (like the ITC) will inevitably bring these jetbike units within charge distanced if the CWE player wants to keep up. Maelstorm objectives are a lot of what makes melee type armies work in 7ed.

If we look at windrider units in a realistic light then really you just have to either force a jink or kill 25% of the unit (2 of a 5 windrider unit) from each unit of windriders. The jinking units will have little return fire and on average 38% of the morale tests will fail. In addition consider that jink has to be declared before you roll to hit. So the next time you consider a grey hunter unit with 2 plasma guns shooting at a windrider unit after jumping out of a drop pod you realize that they have a nearly 40% of breaking the windrider unit if it doesn't jink and if it does they own that bit of board for the next turn (and still have a decent chance to cause the necessary causalities). Windrider units are very high damage but very very fragile. IMO calling them MEQ is actually a disservice to understanding the situation as MEQ have morale control better than fearless.

In this light most of the options in this list are complete overkill for all but the biggest units. This is a very useful list to learn how to deal with a complete Saim-Hann army though. I could see larger units of 5 scatter laser bikes, 2 regular bikes, and a warlock manifesting shrouded being a very nasty unit.

Anyways, sorry for the long wall of text.

You do raise valid points however I think to keep using descriptors like fragile is kind of misleading as well. They are by far more fragile I'll agree with you compared to a WK but to something else like guardmen or even most other eldar like guardians, these bikes are definately much more survivable. Heck, even vs a MEQ which has much worse guns by comparison and has no options to jink and are way way slower, they have massive bonuses to survival. Staying out of range of most other anti-infantry things usually held by the other army's infantry, is a tremendous boost to their survivability. Your threat bubble is much bigger and often can use flanks to much bigger effect. If the enemy is doing a general advance, it's much easier to reposition a flank with turbo boost and to just focus down one flank and mow down the rest. Playing the malestorm missions is much easier when you have so much board control as well as being able to focus your firepower much much more effectively with the higher str and range of these weapons as opposed to traditional MEQ.

Your comparison to their old roles is also a big paradigm shift that I think is not being portrayed by these new bikes and the way you describe their use. you don't really need to just objective grab at the last second or contest anymore. You just wipe out the enemy units especially on a flank to give you the space. Spreading out the malestorm objectives or keeping them in the open also gives jetbikes a big advantage as they can jink in the open while other MEQ just get killed when out of cover with relatively common items like battle cannons/bladestorm/rending/list goes on, which is on a lot of stuff. Anything fast can be killed by volume of fire and range. The slow stuff you just leave in their corner as you can just control the rest of the board. if the slow stuff sits in the middle to get range of the various bikes, that will then leave all the malestorm objectives not in the center free to grab.

Ld8 is kind of a weakness but it's still going to pass as often as most marines like space wolves (also Ld8). Your really going to only be worse than necrons for trying not to break from shooting from one round of shooting. Yes marines will auto rally next turn, but you will have a good chance to rally also and can be much better at focusing down other units. Jinking may seem like a nerf in some ways but you don't always have to jink. You just have the option to but you can still have a 4+ cover by being behind ruins just like marines. Yes, you nerf your next round of fire power when you jink but you are still shooting back and have the same effect vs flyers. You also will then force more shooting at the bikes if they want to keep them jinking/removed as a threat vs shooting at another target.

Leth wrote:seige dreads in pods with their flamestorm cannons could put in some work

added in and credited

Mavnas wrote:Looking back at the Deredeo with its new plasma option, it can fire 7 AP2-3 shots at 36"+ and it has BS5. Buy it the jink ignoring legacy and you have some dead bikes.

OTOH, the cannon option is much better at killing flyers and you could have Skyfire and Interceptor (I hear one of the new eldar weapons is mounted on a flyer).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that I think if it, is there a reason the Fire Raptor would be unable to take the Jink ignoring legacy?

The legacy that ignores cover can be taken by any Sm vehicle including flyers. The fire raptor is actually not a tank (as you need that in your profile) so it is not eligible for every single legacy. Some like Schism of Mars is only for tanks. The problem is that the legacy only gets ignore cover on weapons that use blast markers so it's not universally useful. Fire raptor doesn't use blast markers. The hellfire plasma cannonade on the new Deredeo weapons system can however still use it with the maximal fire option though it's a get hot and single large blast plasma cannon basically. Still effective though so I'll add it on.

The deredeo can use both the anvilus autocannon or plasma cannonade with the helical targeting array to get skyfire and interceptor. Which one is more effective is up to you. The autocannon has reroll to pen vs vehicles and higher str, the plasma has Ap2 but less range

 sudojoe wrote:
You do raise valid points however I think to keep using descriptors like fragile is kind of misleading as well. They are by far more fragile I'll agree with you compared to a WK but to something else like guardmen or even most other eldar like guardians, these bikes are definately much more survivable. Heck, even vs a MEQ which has much worse guns by comparison and has no options to jink and are way way slower, they have massive bonuses to survival. Staying out of range of most other anti-infantry things usually held by the other army's infantry, is a tremendous boost to their survivability. Your threat bubble is much bigger and often can use flanks to much bigger effect. If the enemy is doing a general advance, it's much easier to reposition a flank with turbo boost and to just focus down one flank and mow down the rest. Playing the malestorm missions is much easier when you have so much board control as well as being able to focus your firepower much much more effectively with the higher str and range of these weapons as opposed to traditional MEQ.

Jetbikes are fragile as compared to a waveserpent w/ guardians or guardians + a warlock with conceal. The guardians are 3 wounds for the price of 1 scatter laser jetbike wound. Their morale is the same but the 25% morale check takes more wounds to trigger and they will struggle to flee off the board due to a much slower flee movement.

The range is an increase in survivability against some opponents. Against many opponents there is no difference as they either depend on long range weapons to do their work (Tau riptide lists, IG, Renegades and Heretics), alpha strike from DS reserves (DE, Drop Pod marines, GK, Elysians), or are fast enough to keep up (Flyrants, white scars). I know that I never counted on an opponent closing with me to be effective, but I have seen some SM bolter gunline and Tau firewarrior bases still being run so your point has some validity.

Consider the case of Drop Pod Imperial Fists though. The SM TAC squads will get the first hits in. They will kill an average of 1.8 windriders from 6 different squads assuming average rolling on the turn they drop and that they brought melta rather than plasma (which would be better). We will also assume that anything like drop pod grav cents, etc. was used for killing a wraithknight or something. On average that would be most of the units taking morale checks, lets assume only 1 unit fails morale (which BTW is likely to cause the unit to flee off board). Return fire would net an average of 2.2 dead marines for 3 windriders remaining in each unit (a better move for the CWE player might be to turbo boost out of range of the TAC squads but that leaves them unharmed). The next turn your average Drop Pod MSU army will land 2-3 more pods with the same contents and your unit that fled didn't accomplish much. If you actually play this game on a board you will find out that unless the jetbikes turbo boost they cannot get away from the drop pod marines in a single turn.

Windriders are fragile as they don't have an ability to hide in reserves and come in guaranteed turn 1 or the durability to take most firepower on the chin (like the old waveserpent could). Compounded with their morale issues (which are very real) and the fact each failed save is one less scatter laser. The comparison most people are familiar with and in many ways scatter laser windriders are replacing are the previous edition waveserpents. The effective output of the two units is very similar but the serpent was vastly more durable than the scatter laser windriders, thus they are fragile. Admittedly green tide without long range support and probably a ADL to duck behind to avoid alpha strikes will get mauled.

 sudojoe wrote:
Your comparison to their old roles is also a big paradigm shift that I think is not being portrayed by these new bikes and the way you describe their use. you don't really need to just objective grab at the last second or contest anymore. You just wipe out the enemy units especially on a flank to give you the space. Spreading out the malestorm objectives or keeping them in the open also gives jetbikes a big advantage as they can jink in the open while other MEQ just get killed when out of cover with relatively common items like battle cannons/bladestorm/rending/list goes on, which is on a lot of stuff. Anything fast can be killed by volume of fire and range. The slow stuff you just leave in their corner as you can just control the rest of the board. if the slow stuff sits in the middle to get range of the various bikes, that will then leave all the malestorm objectives not in the center free to grab.

This is only thinking about new CWE versus old lists. New lists are going to want better cover saves and ADLs can make a huge come back now that ignore cover serpents are not invalidating them. How are you going to use your windrider units to remove a IG blobb behind an ADL before the IG artillery starts causing your windriders to flee? The answer is you are not. You will need an ignore cover unit to deal with it (D scythe wraithguard could work) and the windriders will need to tackle another target. Windriders struggle dealing with 2+ cover saves (and lets just ignore 2+ rerollable cover Tz daemons) and as such will have to wait for their counter parts to clear the unit or have to snatch the objective. If we talk about maelstorm then yes the IG units cannot sit behind an ADL but the windriders also cannot sit at 36"+ range.

 sudojoe wrote:
Ld8 is kind of a weakness but it's still going to pass as often as most marines like space wolves (also Ld8). Your really going to only be worse than necrons for trying not to break from shooting from one round of shooting. Yes marines will auto rally next turn, but you will have a good chance to rally also and can be much better at focusing down other units. Jinking may seem like a nerf in some ways but you don't always have to jink. You just have the option to but you can still have a 4+ cover by being behind ruins just like marines. Yes, you nerf your next round of fire power when you jink but you are still shooting back and have the same effect vs flyers. You also will then force more shooting at the bikes if they want to keep them jinking/removed as a threat vs shooting at another target.

I agree that jink is not a weakness it is a strength (assuming you understand when to jink and not to jink, some players it is a weakness) however there is a weakness to jink as compared to cover.

However Ld8 windriders are a far shot away from Ld8 space marines when it comes to breaking and rallying. Also you just committed the double think I was talking about. How does a windrider unit both stay 36" away from the enemy (as you state above about survivability) without being within 3d6 of their board edge (that is average 10.5"). For 2/3 of the deployment types this is actually impossible turn 1 and likely impossible most of the game. Also failing morale will cause you to not move and snap fire next turn.

So I did a fun bit of math. On average the scatter laser is better at killing MEQ at over 12" than a plasma gun and better at all ranges if the target has a 4+ cover or 4++, but this is OK because it costs 2/3rds as much and doesnt get hot.

All I see here is apologists looking at solutions to a horrible army codex design decision instead of doing the smart thing and not playing these silly games gw wants you too.

Look at yourselves people are looking at the top of shelf brand new and biggest box products to solve an issue revolving an over the counter plastic kit you can pickup for chicken feed by comparison. Your chasing 1000 solutions to a 10 dollar problem. And it's not because we couldn't have a solution on the cheap but because gw doesn't want you to have a solution. If they have to in the next book eldar will simply be invincible and unkillable if gw needs to keep you pain stackingly hauling out the visa to buy storm lords and thunder hawk gunships.

And we will be back here again having all of you bending over and taking it. Justifying away gw's inability to knock the eldar down the ladder a few dozen notches because they deserve it after years of the rest of us having good and bad army books but the eldar never having a single bad egg.

You all need proper mental help if you think your going to just solve this problem and have it go away next codex and hoping for a better day that will never happen won't solve anything either.
Do the smart thing, stop playing against standard eldar.

One of my local store owners has permanently shelved his eldar because he knows he wouldn't get any games with them between now and their next codex. And he's started a new army and I think that he has the right idea. Just as nobody is telling us to play against eldar, nobody is telling you to play them either. And if you insist on it maybe you need to learn to not be so attached to plastic space elves and broaden your horizons a little.

 ionusx wrote:
All I see here is apologists looking at solutions to a horrible army codex design decision instead of doing the smart thing and not playing these silly games gw wants you too.

Look at yourselves people are looking at the top of shelf brand new and biggest box products to solve an issue revolving an over the counter plastic kit you can pickup for chicken feed by comparison. Your chasing 1000 solutions to a 10 dollar problem. And it's not because we couldn't have a solution on the cheap but because gw doesn't want you to have a solution. If they have to in the next book eldar will simply be invincible and unkillable if gw needs to keep you pain stackingly hauling out the visa to buy storm lords and thunder hawk gunships.

And we will be back here again having all of you bending over and taking it. Justifying away gw's inability to knock the eldar down the ladder a few dozen notches because they deserve it after years of the rest of us having good and bad army books but the eldar never having a single bad egg.

You all need proper mental help if you think your going to just solve this problem and have it go away next codex and hoping for a better day that will never happen won't solve anything either.
Do the smart thing, stop playing against standard eldar.

One of my local store owners has permanently shelved his eldar because he knows he wouldn't get any games with them between now and their next codex. And he's started a new army and I think that he has the right idea. Just as nobody is telling us to play against eldar, nobody is telling you to play them either. And if you insist on it maybe you need to learn to not be so attached to plastic space elves and broaden your horizons a little.

I'm going to have to disagree somewhat. I already own a Stormlord. Also it's roughly 4 points per dollar. That's way cheaper than the rest of my army.

Secondly, next codex is IK. That is basically DoA if Eldar have cheap D weapons. So I don't think there's a sinister plot to push plastic here. I think GW doesn't know what they're doing and they don't care.

Meh, overall not to worried about the new eldar. Will have to play them a few times before I can say for sure if they are good or bad. I think the builds people are worried about counter deathstar 40k, but such against so many builds that it will not win out. I think the hybrid approach with aspects and the like is what we are going to see. Which once again is not as big of a deal.

I think give it some time and we will see. I dont like it but then again I only dont like it when I am investing a LOT of points into something.

I dont care about stomps or 6s on troops, and if you invest a lot in troops you dont really care. Wraithknight is too cheap but overall still manageable

The WK being too cheap IS the problem. I don't have a problem with the most over the top Cent stars because I run MSU lists that can reasonably hope to counter whatever the enemy has left after spending 1K on a single unit.

When the enemy spends under 300 points...

So I just had a thought. If you put a 50 man blob behind an Aegis defense line. The forward rank would have a 2+ cover save when going to ground. You could probably keep them alive long enough even under concentrated fire to prevent deep striking against targets behind your line.

Enemy flamers would clean them out, or bikes turbo boosting and hitting the guys not in the front of the unit, but for turn 1-2 you should be able to keep deep strikers out of your back field, I think?

Although, now that I think of it, enemy barrage weapons could target guys in the back turn 1 then open up a gap for people to drop into, but no strategy is foolproof.

I think the biggest problem to fielding a super heavy remains WKs using D weapons from 36" away and Hemlocks coming in and using D weapons before you can shoot them.

Dont bother going to ground, just throw in cypher or Ilias Issidon for shrouded. Also wyverns should put in some work as well, provided you actually have LOS blocking on the table that is...

The new Kastelan Robots would do alright

18 str6 AP3 shots that if they wound reduce cover saves for other troops firing at them

T7 3+ save with possible FNP and 2+ save to eat wounds would stand up a little better to str6 spam than most things.

http://imgur.com/a/LoN5K

Wraithguard DSing will eat them though.

Warlocks can never have Guide.

Also, you may as well make a list of things that handle Tactical Marines. Their defensive profile is the same.

 Leth wrote:
Dont bother going to ground, just throw in cypher or Ilias Issidon for shrouded. Also wyverns should put in some work as well, provided you actually have LOS blocking on the table that is...

Umm... why spend extra points to keep a 150 point conscript blob alive. It's not like they'll blind anything with their flashlights anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Warlocks can never have Guide.

Also, you may as well make a list of things that handle Tactical Marines. Their defensive profile is the same.

Yes, tactical marines that can hang out at 36" inches, jink, and flee 36" if they get in serious trouble. Exactly like every marine tactical squad I've ever faced...

 Exergy wrote:
The new Kastelan Robots would do alright

18 str6 AP3 shots that if they wound reduce cover saves for other troops firing at them

T7 3+ save with possible FNP and 2+ save to eat wounds would stand up a little better to str6 spam than most things.

For that many points, i'd hope they kill jetbikes well.

That unit, will get 13.5 hits, 11.25 wounds, 5.6 after jink saves (assuming they're the first unit to fire). Which is...ok I guess.

Oh, and the jetbikes outrange them once you take into account Jetbikes moves.

Mavnas wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Dont bother going to ground, just throw in cypher or Ilias Issidon for shrouded. Also wyverns should put in some work as well, provided you actually have LOS blocking on the table that is...

Umm... why spend extra points to keep a 150 point conscript blob alive. It's not like they'll blind anything with their flashlights anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Warlocks can never have Guide.

Also, you may as well make a list of things that handle Tactical Marines. Their defensive profile is the same.

Yes, tactical marines that can hang out at 36" inches, jink, and flee 36" if they get in serious trouble. Exactly like every marine tactical squad I've ever faced...

Sorry, thought we were talking about a guard blob

 Leth wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Dont bother going to ground, just throw in cypher or Ilias Issidon for shrouded. Also wyverns should put in some work as well, provided you actually have LOS blocking on the table that is...

Umm... why spend extra points to keep a 150 point conscript blob alive. It's not like they'll blind anything with their flashlights anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Warlocks can never have Guide.

Also, you may as well make a list of things that handle Tactical Marines. Their defensive profile is the same.

Yes, tactical marines that can hang out at 36" inches, jink, and flee 36" if they get in serious trouble. Exactly like every marine tactical squad I've ever faced...

Sorry, thought we were talking about a guard blob

Same faction. Since they're meant to be bubble-wrap, I don't count keeping them not gone to ground that critical. If it really matters you could order them to get back up, but when you have a super heavy with 20 fire points... might as well keep the las cannons on the inside, no?

Mavnas wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Warlocks can never have Guide.

Also, you may as well make a list of things that handle Tactical Marines. Their defensive profile is the same.

Yes, tactical marines that can hang out at 36" inches, jink, and flee 36" if they get in serious trouble. Exactly like every marine tactical squad I've ever faced...

Don't forget Jump-Shoot-Jump. Those damn pesky jetpack tactical marines!

I'm pretty sure the lumigen works on their own shots as well not just other units