My question is a simple one. In all honesty, do you want GW to fail? By failure we mean go out of business, shutter their doors forever and never return.

What spurs this question is the general mood of the board that I feel whenever there is news concerning GW, its releases and financial related news. The latest threads about Eldar and the anger and frustration expressed by many is a fine example. Folks come in and express their frustration and outright anger about the release and inevitably the discussion turns to reminding people GW is losing sales and is on a bad road if it wants to remain a viable company. There will usually be a contingent to say "good riddance" and the white knights ride in to tilt at windmills. I am also curious to see the vitriol and what I would describe as almost glee from some people when there is a thread about the latest GW financials that is negative. There is a perception created, on my part perhaps, that there are people who would do a dance of joy if GW were to fold up and go away.

My own perspective is a relatively simple one. I am a hobbyist first and foremost. I love to paint, build cool looking models, do some conversions, etc. I play a game once in a very blue moon and it is a friendly game. I am not a competitive player, have never attended a tournament and at this stage am unlikely to change. I appreciate the competitive scene and the tournaments because i think in general they inject a lot of passion and appreciation for the game into the hobby. Its because of the competitive players i have learned how to tell if a unit is actually good or how to make a list. I enjoy listening to those podcasts as it expands my knowledge and appreciation of the game beyond just the hobby. Despite the issues the game is having I have to wonder if there are people who really want to see this company go away? I agree with the general sentiments that the rules are sucky and the prices are too damned high, but I can live with it as long as every once in a while I get a gorgeous model or a cool codex. However, if the company were to go away we would lose that.

I've heard the arguments that if GW goes away someone will pick up the IP. Personally think it would likely not be the same and frankly better the devil you know. But that's not what my question is about. It's about trying to understand some of the negative mood about GW that pervades those threads. Are some people rooting for the company to fail and if so can you let us know why that would be? What purpose or end for the hobby in general would be positively served by losing GW?

I want them to fail, and the sooner the better. The IP is too valuable to be abandoned completely, and there's really nowhere to go but up from here.


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Stravo wrote:
What purpose or end for the hobby in general would be positively served by losing GW?

The desired end is GW's IP improving once it is free of GW's poor management. Virtually all of the problems right now are the direct result of GW being hilariously incompetent. The IP itself is still strong, and in the right hands could be a much better game. Since GW and its shareholders show no interest in firing the people responsible for this poor management the only remaining hope is that GW dies and their current management has the IP taken away from them by force.

No. I just want them to crank out nice models, which they're doing.

No matter what they do with the game, my friends and I will continue to have fun playing 40k; there's literally nothing they can do to wreck the gaming component for us, because at worst, if they came out with 8e that said, "Flip a coin, and the person who calls it wins", we'd just ignore it and do our own thing. Having played 40k and many dozens of RPGs and board games since the 80's we've just gotten used to essentially changing anything we don't like to something we like better, by consensus.

The one thing GW does uniquely is churn out Scifi armies in a aesthetic that I like, and at a rate exceeding my paintbrush and modelling ability, and while the model's aren't exactly cheap, they're within my budget. That's all it really takes to make me happy

I unfortunately don't have time right now for a long answer, but the short answer is: I want the current management gone. Removed entirely. They have been a blight on GW for many years and have hampered the company and its IPs significantly in the pursuit of short-term profit. GW could be so much more than it is. So it's not so much the company as it is the people managing it.

Personally, I would love for them to have to file for bankruptcy and have to take a moment to see how they have failed their loyal following. At the end of the day the reason GW exists is because its fanbase is willing to pay absurd amounts of money for a book that sometimes feels like a 7 year old made the rules up for, and for bits of plastic that are beautifully crafted to look like something.

GW needs to listen to its fans more and stop trying to force models down our throats. Every year they do this they lose people from the game. I personally know two players who have completely quit the hobby this year because of the rules changing and new codex's forcing them to buy new models or not be competitive. Im waiting to see the results of the new Eldar Love fest codex and see if another buddy who has been on the fence quits now.

I started this hobby with 2 armies, Space marines and Orks, I had to sell my Space marines to focus on my ork army because of how expensive hte models were. If the prices were 30% cheaper I would be fielding 2 armies and they would have made more money off of me. Instead they jack up the prices even higher and expect people to play several different armies. Good luck to them if that is the model they will continue to use.


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SIDE NOTE: 90% of my army is EBAY and this website, 10% was actually GW purchased. I refuse to support them now.

I want GW to improve and make games and minis that I can enjoy again instead of pumping out more and more poorly designed crap, god awful rules and charging a premium for them.

Sadly I don't think that will happen. Assuming it doesn't then yes, I do want them gone. I think it would help my local gaming scene grow if the local GW store and the local GW gamiNg club where to disappear as they offer nothing to the wider community and seem to very intentionally isolate themselves from other games on the market. Having these people start looking at the other products on the market would, I think, be a real boost to the FLGSs doing good work and growing the community while the loss of the GW store wouldn't hurt it at all as it is only there to milk money from kids and turn them off the hobby as a whole when they grow up.


I feel the same holds true for my country as whole and possibly the entier wargameing world. We can already see people and clubs working their way off of a GW dependence until local stores are able to operate without GWs presence. I consider this a very good thing as long as GW continues to sink, and given they have a habit of drilling holes in their own hull I can't see them turning it around.

Does GW need to actually die?

No, but, simply put, the management needs to go.

Probably most of the rules design team, as well. Depending on how much of the bad rules and bad writing is caused by management's interference/directives vs. the actual skills and abilities of the designers themselves.

I don't want GW to fail to the point where a "For Sale" goes up in front of GWHQ, but I do want them to reach the point where the investment groups actually take notice and dump the stock. That's when the board will (hopefully) realize that their not doing the right things. Whether that will be before or after their financials go into the red, I don't know. They're certainly on their way there. Despite the flurry of new releases this year, it may not change much in their total sales. Sales still dropped last year, and that was after a new 40K edition, new Space Marines codex, the new Imperial Knights, etc. GW hasn't quite figured out that the key to their future success is to make their current product worth buying, not throwing as much new product out as they can hoping some of it will succeed.

@Ghazkuul -- in my opinion, the only way they could generate the kinds of numbers that they would like is not on the back of miniatures and games, but by doing something that is leverages IP instead of manufacturing. A hit computer game, or a hit movie, for instance would do the trick.

The world being where it's at, with shrinking apartments and home sizes, widening gaps between the working and wealthy, and generally lower median disposable income and free time make it such that this extremely time-consuming hobby is not going to ever catch up to the next GTA or the next Avengers movie.

If GW listened to its fans, it would be well-loved, but I don't believe the fundamentals would change, and without selling stuff to its player base, it's not going to make money. Perhaps profits would be a little better, but I don't think seismically so, because even at half the current prices and even GREAT rules, it's still not the ideal hobby for a lot of people, and would still be out of reach in terms of price (and time commitment) for many.

I wish they would either get up to par with their business practices, as well as competence in general, or die like they deserve to, and free up the IP for someone more competent.

 Talys wrote:
@Ghazkuul -- in my opinion, the only way they could generate the kinds of numbers that they would like is not on the back of miniatures and games, but by doing something that is leverages IP instead of manufacturing. A hit computer game, or a hit movie, for instance would do the trick.

You mean like making a game called Total War: Warhammer? And then blowing up the Warhammer setting and rebooting it into something completely different before that video game even comes out? Or making Dawn of War and then doing absolutely nothing to support it within the 40K tabletop game to capitalize on the new interest generated?

Sadly, that's the reality of GW.

Yes, but only because I feel it would be for the long term good of the IP, game and customers. No matter who picked it up, they could probably do a better job than their current upper management has done. This IP is worth $200 million per year, probably more if it was done right. The current management seems to believe that cutting costs to the bone, releasing new things at the fire rate of an M2 machine gun and raising prices until even the long time customers are burnt out. Ditch the retail chains and leave it to the FLGS to sell your product for you. Use half the money you save to pay quality "press gangers" to go around to different FLGS' running leagues, tournaments, painting and conversion competitions, and generally getting people excited about the hobby. Do market research to find out why some new releases sell like hot cakes and others linger on the shelves collecting dust. Play test rules to make it fair and balanced so that people who don't want to get roflstomped have more than 5-6 armies to choose from. Wait 4-5 years to replace BRB and codexes so people don't drop $150-200 on a limited edition book only to have it invalidated 2 years later. Reopen forums and Facebook pages to give your fans an official place to discuss the hobby. These are all things that a company taking over the IP would do as they all involve little cost and risk for a potentially significant boost in customer satisfaction and therefore revenue.

No, but this management needs to either disappear or change it's tactics for reasons stated.

I know dozens of people who played DoW and never even knew that a table top game for it existed. Furthermore, I know of even more people who played the fantasy MMORPG and likewise didn't know it was a board game first.

The reason GW is failing is they have doubled the price of their models in less then 20 years. Inflation is always there but 100% inflation in 20 years just isn't right. Yes the models have gotten nicer looking and yeah they added a few new bitz to every box but that is not worth 100% increase in price. When I started playing in the late 90s you could buy a tactical squad for less then 20 and a tank for around 30. now its closer to 35 for a tactical squad and 60+ for a vehicle.

They bill themselves as a "Model Manufacturing Company" but they are called Games Workshop. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people come into my local GW store looking to buy video games.

Yes... the management needs to go...

I want them to fail so that they realize they need to actual work on balancing their game

Median Trace wrote:
They bill themselves as a "Model Manufacturing Company" but they are called Games Workshop. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people come into my local GW store looking to buy video games.

This. I work 3rd shift and I have a GW <1 mile from home so I spend a lot of time there. At least 5 people a day come in asking if we sell video games. The ones who have played any of the video games don't even know the TTG exists. How is a $200M/yr company that bad at cross promotion?

GWs management needs to be fired, and if anything fined for what they've done so far with the codex creep. They need a competent group of players, to actively test and attempt to BREAK the game so they can actively try to fix things appropriately

I agree with Peregrine. The game needs to figure out what it wants to be. It tries to be a beer and pretzels game but sells messy overcomplicated rules. It tries to be a narrative driven game but fails to portray a plausible narrative (flyers being incredibly slow and low altitude, warlords forgetting their specialisations between battles, the game's complete failure at matching its own background). It tries to be a game that's all about the hobby, the collecting, modeling and painting, yet sells expensive rules with more expensive extra rules slapped on top. It tries to be a small detailed game with duels and lots of special wargear and items, yet continues to push for larger games, which results in a slowed-down mess.

The heroic scale oddities and inter-model scale failures is also killing my interest in the entire MEQ model range.

Pull the plug, sell the corpse, and let someone else resuscitate it in a manner of their choosing.

I either want:

GW to close down and someone to buy the IP, anyone else would do a better job, its a well known company, and a well known product, someone would definitely pick it up.

OR

I want them to clear out managers and idiots and reorder the company. They COULD fix themselves, we just need one smart guy with some power.

January 1st GW elected a new CEO Kevin Rountree. So theirs your new CEO, whether or not he fires the upper management is doubtful as the CEO he replaced was shuffled into a non executive chairman role instead of being fired.

I want GW to fail to a point where they realise their wrongs at long last. Then, like a majestic phoenix, for a new form of GW to rise from those ashes, something lovable and respectable and ultimately richer for it.

It probably won't happen, but that's what I want.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I know dozens of people who played DoW and never even knew that a table top game for it existed. Furthermore, I know of even more people who played the fantasy MMORPG and likewise didn't know it was a board game first.

The reason GW is failing is they have doubled the price of their models in less then 20 years. Inflation is always there but 100% inflation in 20 years just isn't right. Yes the models have gotten nicer looking and yeah they added a few new bitz to every box but that is not worth 100% increase in price. When I started playing in the late 90s you could buy a tactical squad for less then 20 and a tank for around 30. now its closer to 35 for a tactical squad and 60+ for a vehicle.

Actually, it's interesting that you bring up inflation. GW products have outpaced inflation, but just barely. To give you an idea,

http://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/related/inflation-calculator/

The rate of inflation since 1980 averages 3.15% per annum and a $100 product would cost $296 today.
The rate of inflation since 1985 averages 2.39% per annum and a $100 product would cost $203 today.
The rate of inflation since 1990 averages 1.97% per annum and a $100 product would cost $163 today.

So a $20 product in 1990 would be $33 today; a $30 product would be $49 today. a $30 kit bought in 2000 would be $40 today, accounting for only nflation.

I'm sure that GW outperforms inflation, but so have most other luxury and entertainment goods (golf clubs, movie tickets, video games, comic books, for example). It isn't as egregious as some might think.

A lot of people actually don't realize how much inflation is; also, a lot of people's salaries haven't kept up with inflation. It's actually one of the reasons for a widening wealth gap.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
January 1st GW elected a new CEO Kevin Rountree. So theirs your new CEO, whether or not he fires the upper management is doubtful as the CEO he replaced was shuffled into a non executive chairman role instead of being fired.

The new CEO was already high up within the company and a right hand man of sorts to Kirby. I doubt you will see very much change with the new CEO.

I believe that very few people actually want GW to fail. Most people want them to change. If that means that they have to declare bankruptcy then so be it.

When you read half of the threads here, you will see that there is a large numbers of members who is actively working towards making GW fail because the rules arent tailored to suit their personal preferences.

That is their agenda. personally, i only see poor mnagement and decision making. I dont want them to fail but i would love to see any of the "suits" and "decision makers" moved out and replaced with ones ho have a little more business and gaming sense.

 EVIL INC wrote:
When you read half of the threads here, you will see that there is a large numbers of members who is actively working towards making GW fail because the rules arent tailored to suit their personal preferences.

That is their agenda. personally, i only see poor mnagement and decision making. I dont want them to fail but i would love to see any of the "suits" and "decision makers" moved out and replaced with ones ho have a little more business and gaming sense.

I disagree, I think it is because they have been burned by GW's blunders to many times. They don't believe there is any way GW can succeed now and they just keep dragging the game they love further and further down the toilet. As pointed out, nothing has changed. GW has let go anyone that thinks differently. Their CEO made a moronic statement about not needing to do market research and poor sales is totally fine. And then they hired someone within their company who rumor has it is just a yes man to the former CEO. They have no faith at all in GW as a company and really if you were a betting person you should agree with them on that point.

The only reason I don't want GW to go under is because I think them going down would take the IP and game with them.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I believe that very few people actually want GW to fail. Most people want them to change. If that means that they have to declare bankruptcy then so be it.

Pretty much.

40k and GW could be so much more, so much better, just not the way they are currently running things.

Very true. it is still a very good "mythos" and still a decent game. With proper leadership, it could once more be great.
I disagree with many though in that I would rather many of the "leaders" fail and be replaced with proper ones who will work to make it all great than have the entire company fail and thus destroy it all.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I believe that very few people actually want GW to fail. Most people want them to change. If that means that they have to declare bankruptcy then so be it.

My thoughts exactly. I want a full change of the management and rules design team, and I just don't see this happening without current GW going down first.

 Peregrine wrote:
I want them to fail, and the sooner the better. The IP is too valuable to be abandoned completely, and there's really nowhere to go but up from here.

if you really belive that, you sir are remarkably optimistic.

the IP could certinly be abandoned, or picked up by someone even worse.
Maybe someone whom rather then make the game we all know and love instead decides to make a cheap CMG that they abandon after a few years of milking for profit while raping the setting?

Some people want GW to go down so that someone else can pick up the IP, but really I don't think there's much chance of that ending well. I think GW will drag the game down with them in a slow and drawn out process, doing irreparable harm to the community and the game After that there's a good chance the IP will not be picked up or picked up by someone who's not going to do it justice anyway.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Some people want GW to go down so that someone else can pick up the IP, but really I don't think there's much chance of that ending well. I think GW will drag the game down with them in a slow and drawn out process, doing irreparable harm to the community and the game After that there's a good chance the IP will not be picked up or picked up by someone who's not going to do it justice anyway.

yeah I remember what happened when FASA closed, Wizkids aquired the rights to mechwarrior, produced their CMG for a bit (which used the same system as all their other games thus quickly fell outta favor for hero cliz) , where bought out by Topps and pretty much abandoned. the classic game is now produced under lisence sure, but it's a far way away from it's glory days

Do I want GW to fail? Most certainly not - most of their stuff is great.
Do I want to see fundamental change in their business model? Emphatically yes.
Sadly, the only way this is likely to happen is when the company is aquired by the likes of Hasbro. The present board will never be changed whilst they are paying shareholders such over-generous dividends. A strategy which is of course draining vital lifeblood from the company, and hastening the takeover.

I do not really mind either way. I do know that I want the game to still be around, but I do not very much care if it GW own their game or if they are bought out by Hasbro, or whatever. I think GW will fail in the long run if they do not adjust their current strategy.

In a time where most niched hobby companies move toward relationship oriented marketing strategies, GW keeps going into the other direction, to a purely transaction focused strategy. They cut all communication to their customers, beside their own magazine which is basically a sales catalogue showcasing and promoting new products.

Do they need to have two way communication with their customers via social media or forums? Yes, people interested in video games, role playing games, miniature games etc. are used to be allowed limited access to the design team where representatives of the company can explain and put developments of the product into a context. Instead GW chooses to act like they are a company selling something generic in a market that looks like it did 15-20 years ago. Only the short term sale of shiny thing to customer matters.

If you visit a store, the people working there generally like the game and you can talk to them about whatever. Yet they are defiantly uneasy if you hint at balance problems or as in the rules. And they constant try to get you buy something you did not come to the store for, white dwarf, some apocalypse book or whatever.

But do they need to communicate with customers? Yes, the lack of communication leads to strife, confusion and discontent amongst their customers. Us, the customers, are used that companies who deal with high engagement products are accessible which adds to the dissatisfaction when GW acts like the odd fish in the pond.

I want GW to start explaining their actions, justify design decisions and patch things in a reasonable time frame if they turn out to not work out. Having a codex or product line be the uncontestdly best one for years while others are barely playable is in itself a poor idea.

In the end, I have not looked into their financial situation, but I doubt they face any immediate threat of bankruptcy. However, I do believe their marketing strategy is outdated and untenable in the long run and has to be adjusted if they wish to keep going. As a customer, I do not particularly care someone buys their company or if they adjust themselves. I do want it to happen sooner rather than later, though.

Not at all.

I think some people that want a different company buying the IP mentioned better/ more advertising among the reasons but that would inevitably lead to a more polticaly correct and even more kid friendly content. Not to mention I hear FFG a lot as a proposition but I cringe reading dark heresy rulebook, the artwork actualy puts me off 40k (except the gw ones there ofc), the best art there is on par with the worst in GW codieces imo. I like FFG some of my favourite boardgames are theirs and their style was great for dust tactics (though the rules werent much better or more balanced than 40k imo even when it was 2 factions only and despite using a grid) but I surely dont want them as a main creative force behind 40k.

Rules you can just stop using them, like I did for 7th. I stopped playing pickup games and play 5th or 6th with friend as a filler before I find an alternate ruleset or write my own. Sucks a bit yes but the regular flow of new plastic models is imo more important and GW has been great lately, no tauroxes or heldrakey crap just good designs.

Not to mention that GW rules suck but are still playable and if they cross the line, some new standard will emerge. Too many people play the game, it could even be healthy maybe to let GW live with their collector company delusions and let people create or convert the rules. Or GW outsourcing just rules to someone else that would be perfect but it's more daydreaming heh.

I want GW to retire Tom Kirby before his manic rule destroys any chance of recovery GW may have.

Let the game developers ACTUALLY develop games, rather than be an extension of the short term focused sales department.
look at the long view.
Inspire people to buy, then support them so they want to stay !

If GW are JUST a minature company great!
STOP selling rules and codex books, cut the retail chain, and stock the shelves of independent retailers with a good range of competitively priced minatures.
(Maybe so collectors edition source books for hobby inspiration, instead of the codex books/rules?)

If GW are a games company , who want to supply all games related products great!
Write good rules that add value to the product range and retain players.

Currently the short term sales focus and obvious money grabs,coupled with poor quality publications is alienating masses of potential customers.
The minatires are not as good value as they could be to be more competitive.

Higher volume sales allows lower prices and higher profits.
(Plastic manufacture is geared up to mazximize the profits of high volume sales.)

I don't want them to fail, I've been playing this game for nearly twenty years... although not much recently. As some have said, I just want them to work on producing a game that works.

I want to be able to play any army from my codex with any army from another codex against someone of equal skill, and have a fair chance of winning. I don't want to annihilate their army, nor do I want to have my army annihilated.

These are real people with real mortgages and most moved to Nottingham for the job, so no, I would be gutted and feel a piece of my childhood to be missing.

 rustproof wrote:
These are real people with real mortgages and most moved to Nottingham for the job, so no, I would be gutted and feel a piece of my childhood to be missing.

...that have watched the money in their bank accounts pile up while screwing over their customer base. In the case of a buyout, they could afford to move wherever their job took them. Anyone high enough in the company to move to GW HQ from far away will do fairly well in the case of a large buyout.

i doubt most these backseat corporate leaders would make things better over at GW.

GW is taking a wildly different approach right now with mini dexes, alliances, introducing new factions and units, updating codexes rapidly, etc. most of these are interesting ideas, some could be great ideas. the problem is not a lack of change or innovation, it is quality control.

GW probably has a pretty good idea of how price effects sales, just like any business. They are supporting themselves on a small, specialized and shrinking audience, and they will probably have to keep pricing out the casual gamer; because the casual gamer is not and never again will be interested in Warhammer. In the 90's sure, but not now. You could charge $10 for 10 models and I honestly doubt you would see much of a sales jump; and you would see a massive profit drop. This is about a massive demographic shift in gaming; one that is not going to reverse no matter what GW does. Gamers play computer games, they don't model.

As to rules - GW has always had wonky rules. The other game companies have wonky rules. GW does need to work on these, but it's more because they are catering to a small, specialized audience. Back when it was a beer and pretzels game the wonky rules didn't matter so much. Now it is more of a fine wine and expensive cheeses game; and it needs to reflect that. It's audience is old men who grouse on message boards nowadays, not kids who think spikey models are awesome. They need to come to terms with this change. So do the players.

Or GW needs to shift over to some kind of computer based gaming system. I suspect they eventually will any way - or some other company will buy them out and do it for them.

This discussion comes up so often that what really surprises me is that GW is still there at all.

As many gamers have (rightly) commentated we are living in an unparalleled golden age of choice and quality in tabletop gaming.

Corvus Belli (Infinity)
Wyrd Miniatures (Malifaux)
Megalith Games (Godslayer)
Spartan Games (Firestorm Armada, Planetfall, Dystopian Wars, Dystopian Legions, Halo)
Privateer Press (Warmachine, Hordes)
Fantasy Flight Games (X-Wing, Star Wars Armada)
Mantic Games (Kings of War, Dwarf King's Hold, Warpath, Deadzone, Mars Attacks)
Hawk Wargames (Dropzone Commander)
GCT Studios (Bushido)

That's just a few off the top of my head. Games Workshop is destined to fail because it hasn't seen the writing on the wall for some considerable time now.

Gamers have more choice than ever before, suiting every setting, scale and budget but they keep doubling down on the same mistakes.

1.Set the price of minis at a comparable level to skirmish game pieces, but market them for a mass battle game.
2. Constantly increase the number of models required thus either overcrowding the play area of forcing people to have impractibly large gaming tables. If you want epic battles, you need smaller miniatures (you know, like in 'Epic' )
3. Constantly retcon the background (and make it generally sillier in each iteration), did they not notice the backlash to the Star Wars prequels? If it ain't broke don't fix it!
4. Persist in writing poor and unbalanced rules, assuming that their customers won't notice, at a time when thanks to the internet there is more awareness and analysis than ever.
5. Refuse to interact with their customers in the defining age of social media.

If GW disappeared up it's own fundamental orifice tomorrow huge swathes of the gaming community would barely bat an eyelid and those that did shed a tear would swiftly find new (and better) sources for their own plasticrack addiction.

Despite all the above I still believe GW is salvageable, but time is running out and unless there is the kind of shift in attitude that has been noticeable by its absence in the last decade, they will fall.

And they will not be missed...

I want GW stock to sink to such an unfathomable depth that I, personally, am capable of gulping up the majority of her shares, after which I will turn the game of 40k into a living nightmare for anyone who ever had, has, or will have had an Eldar army.

 jasper76 wrote:
I want GW stock to sink to such an unfathomable depth that I, personally, am capable of gulping up the majority of her shares, after which I will turn the game of 40k into a living nightmare for anyone who ever had, has, or will have had an Eldar army.

"Steve, didn't you have an Eldar army at some point."
"What of it? I'm playing Dark Angels now."
"Well, it says here in the rules that if you have had an Eldar army, you only get 40% of the points allowance... and we get to punch you in the dick."

 Purifier wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
I want GW stock to sink to such an unfathomable depth that I, personally, am capable of gulping up the majority of her shares, after which I will turn the game of 40k into a living nightmare for anyone who ever had, has, or will have had an Eldar army.

"Steve, didn't you have an Eldar army at some point."
"What of it? I'm playing Dark Angels now."
"Well, it says here in the rules that if you have had an Eldar army, you only get 40% of the points allowance... and we get to punch you in the dick."

Exactly

 Talys wrote:
No. I just want them to crank out nice models, which they're doing.

No matter what they do with the game, my friends and I will continue to have fun playing 40k; there's literally nothing they can do to wreck the gaming component for us, because at worst, if they came out with 8e that said, "Flip a coin, and the person who calls it wins", we'd just ignore it and do our own thing. Having played 40k and many dozens of RPGs and board games since the 80's we've just gotten used to essentially changing anything we don't like to something we like better, by consensus.

The one thing GW does uniquely is churn out Scifi armies in a aesthetic that I like, and at a rate exceeding my paintbrush and modelling ability, and while the model's aren't exactly cheap, they're within my budget. That's all it really takes to make me happy

Yeah agree with this, though Peregrine's post is valid also!

 Hollowman wrote:
GW is taking a wildly different approach right now with mini dexes, alliances, introducing new factions and units, updating codexes rapidly, etc. most of these are interesting ideas, some could be great ideas. the problem is not a lack of change or innovation, it is quality control.

I very much disagree. The only change and innovation they can come up with is "we are losing sales and need to release more stuff for 40k!"

Mini codices, making allies standard, sub factions and a rapid release cycle.... none of these are terribly innovative things.

They've also really lacked the drive or ability to push their IP in to other markets. The DOW games were hugely popular but GW made little to no effort to capitalise on that popularity. They could have expanded on it more, had tie ins with the table top game, released board games or starter sets that revolved around it, lots of stuff they COULD have done but just sat on their hands. Now they're just selling their IP cheaply to little developers to make some quick cash instead of genuinely trying to grow the IP.

They've culled Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Epic and so on. They've culled their events right back. They've just narrowed themselves to milking the main 40k game for all it's worth.

I want to see them make a return to how they were in early 2000s. A welcoming place, being about the hobby of gaming and modeling, not the hhhobby of buying GW models.

Toss Kirby and bring on leadership that will work.

 Talys wrote:

I'm sure that GW outperforms inflation, but so have most other luxury and entertainment goods (golf clubs, movie tickets, video games, comic books, for example). It isn't as egregious as some might think.

A lot of people actually don't realize how much inflation is; also, a lot of people's salaries haven't kept up with inflation. It's actually one of the reasons for a widening wealth gap.

Actually,

NES games were about $50 USD in 1985, a PS4 game is about $60 USD. Even the NES in 2013 dollars would be $434.69 USD. When you consider that the games will end up being the majority of money spent, Video Games have probably failed to keep up with inflation.

Long answer short. No. I do not want GW to fail. My opinion is that currently, if GW fell under, it would drag over months, years perhaps, destroying GW's reputation for mini gaming, and perhaps wrecking the game to a point where the IP is irreparable.

Whilst I agree that GW must improve their rules, you do need to remember what GW and White Dwarf passed on. They don't get paid for rules. They get paid for minis. It makes sense to make books and formations that sell minis. But again, its at the expense of the average gamer, and we need to reinforce that to them.

I think people forget the number of reprehensible things GWhas done in its current era, things that I doubt anyone would have a good defense for, including:

- Suing a children's book author for the use of the term "Space Marine," and trying to claim they had originated that concept
- Suing any third party component producer (a legal process, look at cell phones for a good example), and destroying them all by sheer weight until they got to CHS with its pro-Bono defense.
- In the court case, claiming ownership of things they never owned, while trying to cover up that the were contacting the owners to try to get them to sign over the rights.
- Again in the case, suing CHS over concepts they thought they owned, such as fur and Roman numerals on shoulder pads. Claiming all of their developers' concepts originated out of their imagination with no outside inspiration.
- A number of other under-handed decisions during the case, and the clear showing of the management's opinion of its customers as "collectors engaged in the hobby of purchasing Citadel miniatures." I could write another page about CHS alone!
- Gutting all of their Specialist Games- not stopping them from being produced per say, but taking away access to rules in attempt to force everyone in 40k or WFHB
- Sending cease-and-decists to people who manage 40k fan sites because they showed upcoming content early and GW thinks they're Apple
- Gutting out the entire mid-management, leaving only the top and the "managers" in the stores, who are given unrealistic goals and then replaced if they cannot attain them.
- Recycling their rules at an increasingly faster rate, raising the cost of gaming aids in order to maximize revenue without producing goods of significant value, just transient books that will be replaced in a year or two.

GW has become a bit like Scientology in its management, the upper core removing anything that could question or threaten them in the goal of ultimate power. You can argue against a couple of lines in the text above, but I sincerely doubt anyone can honestly argue that at least half of those are deplorable.

I just don't want to support a company that has such a bad track record, and being just a miniatures company, that isn't exceedingly difficult. Maybe GW's management could one-day be replaced if the company were to continue to shudder profit, and you at least perhaps see something that at least isn't so damn vindictive arise.

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

 Talys wrote:

I'm sure that GW outperforms inflation, but so have most other luxury and entertainment goods (golf clubs, movie tickets, video games, comic books, for example). It isn't as egregious as some might think.

A lot of people actually don't realize how much inflation is; also, a lot of people's salaries haven't kept up with inflation. It's actually one of the reasons for a widening wealth gap.

Actually,

NES games were about $50 USD in 1985, a PS4 game is about $60 USD. Even the NES in 2013 dollars would be $434.69 USD. When you consider that the games will end up being the majority of money spent, Video Games have probably failed to keep up with inflation.

A quick googling tells me that movie ticket prices have apparently been quite constant over the years when you correct for inflation.

 jasper76 wrote:
I want GW stock to sink to such an unfathomable depth that I, personally, am capable of gulping up the majority of her shares, after which I will turn the game of 40k into a living nightmare for anyone who ever had, has, or will have had an Eldar army.

A worthy endeavour! First exalt in my life.

Make them grow ponytails, glue special edition 200£ pound red plastic stones to their foreheads and dance the wardance while having a huge bisexual man on viagra impersonating Slaneesh behind their backs waiting for a tiniest mistake, each game. Make them glue their models with GW plastic glue and remove mold lines with GW tool. Make them subscribe Warhammer Visions.

On the other hand, the codex they've just got is kind of punishment too, imagine loosing with it - the shame, the sneery eyes, the barely hidden smiles and meaningful handshakes. Packing the models would take forever, shaking hands breaking scatter lasers between wraithknight legs, then the walk to the shop exit like the Way of the Cross and finaly home for the ultimate realisation that not only you're alone in the universe but also have nothing to make up for it anymore.

<All in jest>

No. GW is awesome.

No, I would like to see a few things change however.

I would like to see more codices balanced against each other, which we were seeing for awhile, then the Necros/Eldar + new formations blew that out of the water. Making armies have interesting character, without making them grossly overpowered is tough, so spend the time and stop spamming us with new codices.

I would like the codices to be cheaper. $60 for a thin hardcover, which doesn't need to be a hardcover, filled mostly with picture and bad stories, greatly angers me. That and the layouts are terrible.
E-rules that cost as much as physical ones, E-only rules that cost $15 for a page of rules, are an abomination.

Get rid of dual kits, like the hive crone/harpy kits. Not kits with a few alternate weapons. Paying extra money for a bunch of bits that are pretty much useless really annoys me. If you make good rules for every unit, so we have reasons to want to field each unit every now and again, will get you more sales then making dual kits that people basically only build one of, since the other variant is nearly useless.

Glad to see White Dwarf becoming a bit more of what it was, a magazine which supported the game, not just ad space for their newest products and how they paint them. But they need to do more in terms of rules/battle reports. Still, much better then it was a few years ago.

Forgeworld, put rules for your models in with your kits. Having to buy a book from overseas just to field a model is vastly frustrating.

Better written rules with examples.

FAQs and errata, even an old man like myself uses the internet, no reason to be shy about fixing/explaining problems (looking straight at the volatile rule for pyrovores). And being responsive to problems the community find (or at least saying why you choose not to change something) would at least give your customers the idea that you value the game, and not just our pocketbooks.

Everything is awesome, Tom Business can do no wrong.

 Chimera_Calvin wrote:
This discussion comes up so often that what really surprises me is that GW is still there at all.

As many gamers have (rightly) commentated we are living in an unparalleled golden age of choice and quality in tabletop gaming.

Corvus Belli (Infinity)
Wyrd Miniatures (Malifaux)
Megalith Games (Godslayer)
Spartan Games (Firestorm Armada, Planetfall, Dystopian Wars, Dystopian Legions, Halo)
Privateer Press (Warmachine, Hordes)
Fantasy Flight Games (X-Wing, Star Wars Armada)
Mantic Games (Kings of War, Dwarf King's Hold, Warpath, Deadzone, Mars Attacks)
Hawk Wargames (Dropzone Commander)
GCT Studios (Bushido)

That's just a few off the top of my head. Games Workshop is destined to fail because it hasn't seen the writing on the wall for some considerable time now.

Gamers have more choice than ever before, suiting every setting, scale and budget but they keep doubling down on the same mistakes.

And the greatest irony of all, is that many of those choices in other scales and genres exist and flourish because GW abandoned their own matching games. Necromunda, Mordheim, Blood Bowl, Battlefleet Gothic, Epic, etc., if still around and actively supported by GW, would have prevented many of those other games and companies from flourishing. There are still small companies whose primary business is to produce alternative fantasy football models for Blood Bowl, a game GW no longer supports, and yet money is still changing hands for it (just not GW's hands anymore).

I don't want them to fail. I want them to change.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
January 1st GW elected a new CEO Kevin Rountree. So theirs your new CEO, whether or not he fires the upper management is doubtful as the CEO he replaced was shuffled into a non executive chairman role instead of being fired.

When I say new CEO I mean like fresh blood for the company, not some guy who was already pretty close with the old CEO

 Hollowman wrote:

GW probably has a pretty good idea of how price effects sales, just like any business. They are supporting themselves on a small, specialized and shrinking audience, and they will probably have to keep pricing out the casual gamer; because the casual gamer is not and never again will be interested in Warhammer. In the 90's sure, but not now. You could charge $10 for 10 models and I honestly doubt you would see much of a sales jump; and you would see a massive profit drop. This is about a massive demographic shift in gaming; one that is not going to reverse no matter what GW does. Gamers play computer games, they don't model.

As to rules - GW has always had wonky rules. The other game companies have wonky rules. GW does need to work on these, but it's more because they are catering to a small, specialized audience. Back when it was a beer and pretzels game the wonky rules didn't matter so much. Now it is more of a fine wine and expensive cheeses game; and it needs to reflect that. It's audience is old men who grouse on message boards nowadays, not kids who think spikey models are awesome. They need to come to terms with this change. So do the players.

I dunno - I see plenty kids playing and enjoying 40k. It's not just old men grousing on message boards. Table top wargaming is certainly a niche hobby, but it's not one populated by 'old men' at all. Just like theatre continues to survive and thrive in an era of tv, cinema and dvd, and continues to pick up new fans, both old and young, table top wargaming will do the same. It simply scratches that creative arty itch that computer games don't do- thryre just too impersonal. Plenty parents would and do encourage their kids to be involved with quality and craft based hobbies - it might be old school, but it's certsinly not obselete.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
No. GW is awesome.

How's the kool-aid?

 Blacksails wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
No. GW is awesome.

How's the kool-aid?

Well, he's 12. So clearly it isn't spiked Kool-Aid.

Yes, I want GW (in its current incarnation) to fail and die, and I want that death to happen quickly before the IP is irreparably tarnished by the company's toxic business practises.

GW may have to fail before it can change.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
No. GW is awesome.

How's the kool-aid?

Well, he's 12. So clearly it isn't spiked Kool-Aid.

Are we referencing Jonestown? Otherwise, I don't understand what "how's the kool-aid" is a reference to.

 Purifier wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
No. GW is awesome.

How's the kool-aid?

Well, he's 12. So clearly it isn't spiked Kool-Aid.

Are we referencing Jonestown? Otherwise, I don't understand what "how's the kool-aid" is a reference to.

Yes. In the current vernacular in the US it is used to denote someone who has unswerving loyalty and blind obedience to an organization, person or ideal.

I just want those that are currently in charge of GW to be sacrificed in an unholy ritual to Khorne.

They created such an awesome hobby but are robbing its players big time. I for one havent bought a single GW model from their store in over 2 years. I will only buy from ebay or such... The pricing is getting out of hand.. And next to that i HATE how they make their codexes now. Ooh yeah lets break the rules and lets see... eldar and Necrons are kicking ass... Lets make em even better! Ohhh orks and dark angels have it rough... lets make em even worse!

In a sence i want them to fail hard... But the hobby itself is awesome enough that i want them to stay

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
I just want those that are currently in charge of GW to be sacrificed in an unholy ritual to Khorne.

They created such an awesome hobby but are robbing its players big time. I for one havent bought a single GW model from their store in over 2 years. I will only buy from ebay or such... The pricing is getting out of hand.. And next to that i HATE how they make their codexes now. Ooh yeah lets break the rules and lets see... eldar and Necrons are kicking ass... Lets make em even better! Ohhh orks and dark angels have it rough... lets make em even worse!

In a sence i want them to fail hard... But the hobby itself is awesome enough that i want them to stay

It's the highlighted belief that allows them to persist. GW are neither the creators nor the perpetrators of any hobby, any more than Sony created music or Disney created movies.

The fact that there are still people who consciously or sub consciously think that GW are somehow the be all and end all of wargaming, rather than just the owners of a popular wargaming IP, and there's probably a goodly number of people who live entirely within the GW eco system and have little to no idea of the wider hobby that has arrested any potential decline thus far.

I don't want GW to fail, never have, never will, but I'd dearly love them to change.

Does the owner of GW have many kids? If he does then there is a good chance that he may want his firm to bring in cash after he goes on a pension.

Makumba wrote:
Does the owner of GW have many kids? If he does then there is a good chance that he may want his firm to bring in cash after he goes on a pension.

It's a publicly traded company so there is no "owner"; Tom Kirby (Board Chairman) does kind of treat the company like his own personal domain though...Since his wife, a former secretary, somehow got the contract to head the development of the 4million pound new website... Nepotism is a wonderful thing.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
I just want those that are currently in charge of GW to be sacrificed in an unholy ritual to Khorne.

They created such an awesome hobby but are robbing its players big time. I for one havent bought a single GW model from their store in over 2 years. I will only buy from ebay or such... The pricing is getting out of hand.. And next to that i HATE how they make their codexes now. Ooh yeah lets break the rules and lets see... eldar and Necrons are kicking ass... Lets make em even better! Ohhh orks and dark angels have it rough... lets make em even worse!

In a sence i want them to fail hard... But the hobby itself is awesome enough that i want them to stay

It's the highlighted belief that allows them to persist. GW are neither the creators nor the perpetrators of any hobby, any more than Sony created music or Disney created movies.

The fact that there are still people who consciously or sub consciously think that GW are somehow the be all and end all of wargaming, rather than just the owners of a popular wargaming IP, and there's probably a goodly number of people who live entirely within the GW eco system and have little to no idea of the wider hobby that has arrested any potential decline thus far.

Indeed, not only did GW not create any hobby, the people who run GW these days basically have nothing to do with any of the things that made/make 40k great. All of their ideas came from concepts created roughly twenty years ago. All the current GW does now is plunder the old concepts and re-hash them. Sure, a lot of their remakes are quite good, but there is not much in the way of novel concepts these days.

Realistically GW needs to lose enough buisness to trigger the investors to force out the current management and get some fresh blood. who hopefully have the slightest idea that they have a game company on their hands and that making rules for a game should be more important than just an afterthought or marketing tool for selling products. Balanced rules sell cool models while broken rules turn off a portion of your customer base from wanting to buy new products.

Except, as has been pointed out in many of these thread's previous incarnations, GW isn't big enough for the investors to care sufficiently to do that.

Outside of Kirby, all significant stakeholders are institutional investors. If GW stops offering them the returns they're looking for they won't 'force out the current management' they'll simply take their cash out and put it in another company that will. We even saw what appeared to be that exact thing when the share price tanked at the beginning of 2014.

 Vankraken wrote:
Realistically GW needs to lose enough buisness to trigger the investors to force out the current management and get some fresh blood. who hopefully have the slightest idea that they have a game company on their hands and that making rules for a game should be more important than just an afterthought or marketing tool for selling products. Balanced rules sell cool models while broken rules turn off a portion of your customer base from wanting to buy new products.

This is true. The difference is that there is a difference between losing enough business to force a change in policy and going completely out of business. Most here want them to go completely out of business while others, myself included only want a positive change.

Lets look at what will happen if they go under. Many think they will sell the IP. I honestly dont think they would. They would take it to their grave only to make $ sueing over it in the future. This means it would not be picked up by anyone else.
If they did sell the ip, it would be sucked dry in a get rich quick and then dumped after being ruined even worse and faster then the current slow decline. Either way is a lose lose situation and I think this is something we can all agree on. The only way to "win" is for them to fix it from within which would have to have a catalyst I feel.

Yes when you look at Alien you'd think it's a gold mine if you treat it right but Alien Isolation is a first great thing that happened for it in years. At least for GW 40k is the main thing, we dont know who might pick it up. Look at dust tactics, Im not following it closely but it seems to be in a halt and it really has potential imo, I love the mechs there and an alien race was supossed to be introduced afair, I gues under FFG it would be in a much better place right now. 40k can meet similar fate to one of those and why risk it? I hate what they do to local shops but it's their product, their right and they will suffer the consequences, similar with all the lawyer crusades, they bullied a few but in the end they lost and paid tons of money in the process. The game is bad and close to a breaking point now probably but again it's their game, their risks and at least it goes forward in some direction (or not heh), also the books while overpriced and being made obsolete much too fast are still good looking with lots of good art and rules that show some kind of effort (ussualy failed but still) to represent the fluff and make it work as a wargame. Ugh it's really exhausting to find words to defend GW, anyway in the end it's not like they poison the oceans, market junk food to kids or sponsor wars and all the crash and burn wishes do appear to me as some kind of nerdrage tbh.

 Toofast wrote:

 rustproof wrote:
These are real people with real mortgages and most moved to Nottingham for the job, so no, I would be gutted and feel a piece of my childhood to be missing.

...that have watched the money in their bank accounts pile up while screwing over their customer base. In the case of a buyout, they could afford to move wherever their job took them. Anyone high enough in the company to move to GW HQ from far away will do fairly well in the case of a large buyout.

So you're saying everyone that works for GW is rolling in riches?

 Azreal13 wrote:
Except, as has been pointed out in many of these thread's previous incarnations, GW isn't big enough for the investors to care sufficiently to do that.

Outside of Kirby, all significant stakeholders are institutional investors. If GW stops offering them the returns they're looking for they won't 'force out the current management' they'll simply take their cash out and put it in another company that will. We even saw what appeared to be that exact thing when the share price tanked at the beginning of 2014.

Exactly, the institutions will just dump their their shares when GW is no longer seen as a profitable investment. Now, it could be possible that someone who does care about GW might then swoop in, buy up the shares, and start taking action like some of those activist investors we hear about in the news. The sad truth is that the shares may simply be bought up by GW itself with the cash they have on hand or by the boardmembers so they can keep cutting themselves nice dividend checks until the well runs dry.

No, I don't. GW has provided me with products that I have enjoyed for a very long time. Starting with the release of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay all those years ago, then branching off into tabletop battles. Prices are a bit steep, and balance often gets out of whack with new releases, but the fact remains that (at least for me) WHFB and 40K are my favorite settings to play in. The setting is very important to me in a game, even more so than rules or balance to some extent because these things I can just correct with the people I play against. As long as they continue to provide me with good models and an interesting backstory I hope they prosper. If I couldn't afford the miniatures or if I were a diehard tournament player perhaps I could understand the frustration of some on these boards, but I just don't have the same perspective.

I desperately want positive change - at least on the rules front and business ethics if nothing else. I can ignore questionable model releases, high prices to a point, but when the rules become such a mess that I no longer want to play the game in spite of a rather respectable collection and love for the setting, and when gak like the Dire Avenger reboxing and 1-click bundles exist purely to scam the customer base? 40k is no longer a good game and a fun hobby with a few irritating aspects, it's a massive source of frustration with a few points in its favour.

And I have absolutely zero confidence in GW changing direction. They've said themselves their interest is in continued revenue (i.e. dividend) generation for as long as possible, and view their customers with such contempt, as stated under oath and through several PR guffaws, they simple don't have the capacity nor interest in actually changing things for the better, even on purely corporate/revenue stream grounds. They're happy with their current level of stagnation and decline, as it works well enough.

Kind of like the Imperium of Man.

To continue this analogy, they are beset on all sides by threats which are individually miniscule, but combined profit from GW's continued stagnation and incompetence, they are stuck in completely outmoded ways of thinking and dogma of a bygone age of design and business practices, and are headed by a clique of individuals so out of touch with proper management they might as well be corpses atop a throne.

So, burn it to the ground.

Besides, as has been seen elsewhere, wargaming is, surprisingly by most metrics, a growing market and increasingly socially acceptable (FFG has done a lot on that front in particular with X-Wing) - companies are increasingly expanding their IP's impact on the video game world and other licensing and there is plenty of money to be had. GW going under or showing enough weakness will tempt no small number of companies, from Hasbro who has already invested heavily into Magic and generated a superb revenue stream and might seek to expand in a similar direction, to smaller actors, such as the recent FFG merger, building upon their own experience with the IP and recognition of its profitability should the price drop low enough.

Smaller brands whither and die, as we're seeing with Dust, but GW is like the city of Rome in 450 CE: its importance and dominance is a shadow of what it once was, but controlling it, in theory, grants dominance to whomever can control it, and its decline inspires many to seek to revitalize it or out-do its accomplishments. There is, however too much rot in the structure itself to be saved as it is, and Rome at least had Flavius Aetius - some people within the dying Empire actually tried to save it rather than ride the sinking ship to the bottom of the ocean while pillaging it down to the rivets.

 Doctadeth wrote:
Long answer short. No. I do not want GW to fail. My opinion is that currently, if GW fell under, it would drag over months, years perhaps, destroying GW's reputation for mini gaming, and perhaps wrecking the game to a point where the IP is irreparable.

Whilst I agree that GW must improve their rules, you do need to remember what GW and White Dwarf passed on. They don't get paid for rules. They get paid for minis. It makes sense to make books and formations that sell minis. But again, its at the expense of the average gamer, and we need to reinforce that to them.

They don't get paid for rules?! I just spent $58 on the eldar codex that cost probably $5 to produce. This time last year, I spent $85 on a rulebook. Oh don't forget the space marine codex ($58) along with the space wolves codex and supplement ($100) and the 6E eldar codex and supplement ($100). I've spent over $400 on rulebooks in less than 18 months for 2 armies. Not to mention the fact that good rules DO sell models. Otherwise privateer press wouldn't be in business. Especially in the early days, nobody was buying those mediocre PP models because they were such fantastic sculpts and so much fun to build/paint. They were buying them because PP makes good rules and they wanted to play the game.

Relapse wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

 rustproof wrote:
These are real people with real mortgages and most moved to Nottingham for the job, so no, I would be gutted and feel a piece of my childhood to be missing.

...that have watched the money in their bank accounts pile up while screwing over their customer base. In the case of a buyout, they could afford to move wherever their job took them. Anyone high enough in the company to move to GW HQ from far away will do fairly well in the case of a large buyout.

So you're saying everyone that works for GW is rolling in riches?

Did you miss the yellow part? Obviously not everyone in the company makes 6 figures. Anyone who moved to Nottingham to take the job is doing pretty well for them self or they wouldn't have been able to afford the move and a mortgage.

Die? No, they're too entertaining. I'm hoping the next financial report preamble from Kirby will go full-on Charlie Sheen.

 Peregrine wrote:
I want them to fail, and the sooner the better. The IP is too valuable to be abandoned completely, and there's really nowhere to go but up from here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stravo wrote:
What purpose or end for the hobby in general would be positively served by losing GW?

The desired end is GW's IP improving once it is free of GW's poor management. Virtually all of the problems right now are the direct result of GW being hilariously incompetent. The IP itself is still strong, and in the right hands could be a much better game. Since GW and its shareholders show no interest in firing the people responsible for this poor management the only remaining hope is that GW dies and their current management has the IP taken away from them by force.

Perfect first post. Thread didn't even need to be expanded on from here. Well said, GW is literally writing the book on how to ruin a game with almost every update change and decision they make concerning 40k over the last few years. They've done a couple things right in there too, but a million things wrong. At this stage, ANYTHING is an improvement. I'd even rather let a couple of posters from here write the books.

At this point yes, but not out of spite. I want them to fail so they realize that higher prices than everybody else, basically zero community support and the idea that they're selling figures and not a game is the reason for the failure, and then whomever takes it over can take steps to fix that.

The "dream" GW writes and tests good rules, supports the community, prices things reasonably without it feeling like everything from the books to the figures to the paints to the hobby tools are trying to cheat you by offering not as good quality for a high price. The current GW has always been the opposite, just in recent years it's been more pronounced since they decided to essentially drop the illusion of pretending it was anything else.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'd even rather let a couple of posters from here write the books.

Well, why don't you guys do it, then? Seriously. Nine tenths of the complaints on here are about the rules - would be great if people used the same energy invested in that, and devoted it to setting up new rules and, perhaps, points/codex adjustments.


I don't want GW to fail; better the devil you know.

Want them to fail? Of course not. I 100% support and enjoy their trolling of their fanbase and long may it continue!

Nope. I just want competent FAQs, really.

And my DE SCs back.

When GW fails - they will sell the company to smart people. Said smart people will make good rules. At this point the game has the potential to be fun again.

Fail? No.

Have a 'Road to Damascus' moment, Yes.

 Xenomancers wrote:
When GW fails - they will sell the company to smart people. Said smart people will make good rules. At this point the game has the potential to be fun again.

GW is a publicly owned company, they have absolutely no say in who buys them, it is just a question of funds and desire, and neither of those things is a guarantee of the right kind of smart that 40K needs.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
When GW fails - they will sell the company to smart people. Said smart people will make good rules. At this point the game has the potential to be fun again.

GW is a publicly owned company, they have absolutely no say in who buys them, it is just a question of funds and desire, and neither of those things is a guarantee of the right kind of smart that 40K needs.

Ok but stands to pretty good chance that the new owners will see why GW failed (not hard to see) and improve on this. I think it's highly unlikely anyone could do worse than GW at this point

 Xenomancers wrote:
When GW fails - they will sell the company to smart people. Said smart people will make good rules. At this point the game has the potential to be fun again.

the grass is always greener scenario rarely turns out that way, sadly.

Especially when finance is tricky, you're more likely to find a get-rich-quick merchant taking over, who will gouge the consumer and move production to China for a short-term profits lift.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
When GW fails - they will sell the company to smart people. Said smart people will make good rules. At this point the game has the potential to be fun again.

GW is a publicly owned company, they have absolutely no say in who buys them, it is just a question of funds and desire, and neither of those things is a guarantee of the right kind of smart that 40K needs.

Ok but stands to pretty good chance that the new owners will see why GW failed (not hard to see) and improve on this. I think it's highly unlikely anyone could do worse than GW at this point

History shows us that this simply isn't the case. There are plenty of occasions where companies have been bought out, staggered on for an indeterminate period and then fallen flat on their faces, or equally transformed beyond all recognition in the pursuit of profit.

Fully articulated Space Marine action figures could be the future of 40K after a buyout, that could be immensely profitable for the new powers, less than popular with the existing fan base though.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'd even rather let a couple of posters from here write the books.

Well, why don't you guys do it, then? Seriously. Nine tenths of the complaints on here are about the rules - would be great if people used the same energy invested in that, and devoted it to setting up new rules and, perhaps, points/codex adjustments.


I don't want GW to fail; better the devil you know.

The funny thing about that is 1) it's already been done, sorry if you're unable to see the numerous fandexes and houserule threads in the proposed rules forum (sure most of it is the product of a 12 year old's fevered imagination BUT there is some good stuff in there too) and 2) there are several posters on this board who write game rules in a professional capacity.

Edit:
The simpler thing is to just move on to a game that doesn't require me to rewrite the rules because the people paid to do so at GW are incompetent and have an incomplete grasp of the English language.

None of the other games have lore that makes me give a care, however, making that not a valid choice forme.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
When GW fails - they will sell the company to smart people. Said smart people will make good rules. At this point the game has the potential to be fun again.

GW is a publicly owned company, they have absolutely no say in who buys them, it is just a question of funds and desire, and neither of those things is a guarantee of the right kind of smart that 40K needs.

Ok but stands to pretty good chance that the new owners will see why GW failed (not hard to see) and improve on this. I think it's highly unlikely anyone could do worse than GW at this point

History shows us that this simply isn't the case. There are plenty of occasions where companies have been bought out, staggered on for an indeterminate period and then fallen flat on their faces, or equally transformed beyond all recognition in the pursuit of profit.

Fully articulated Space Marine action figures could be the future of 40K after a buyout, that could be immensely profitable for the new powers, less than popular with the existing fan base though.

Agreed. A perfect world scenario would be one in which a group of motivated venture capitalists with a passion for wargaming and WHFB/40K in particular buy the company out and then "fix" everything. Reality would be that many would still be unhappy because, well, people are unhappy animals.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
When GW fails - they will sell the company to smart people. Said smart people will make good rules. At this point the game has the potential to be fun again.

GW is a publicly owned company, they have absolutely no say in who buys them, it is just a question of funds and desire, and neither of those things is a guarantee of the right kind of smart that 40K needs.

Ok but stands to pretty good chance that the new owners will see why GW failed (not hard to see) and improve on this. I think it's highly unlikely anyone could do worse than GW at this point

History shows us that this simply isn't the case. There are plenty of occasions where companies have been bought out, staggered on for an indeterminate period and then fallen flat on their faces, or equally transformed beyond all recognition in the pursuit of profit.

Fully articulated Space Marine action figures could be the future of 40K after a buyout, that could be immensely profitable for the new powers, less than popular with the existing fan base though.

You are probably right. I second the guy above though that new ownership would be hard pressed to under-perform current GW.

alright guys im going to go open up a new bank account and we are all going to donate money into it instead of buying new GW crap. In a few years when we have saved up enough we will wage a VIOLENT TAKE OVER OF GW! WHO IS WITH ME!


WAAAAAGGHHHHHHH!

If they get bought out, it would be good if...
If they can find fluff writers that are actually...I don't know, good and not filled with one dimensional characters and absurd ideas of scale. (1,000 marines making a difference in a battle of several millions)
If they can find rules writers that can design something more coherent than Candyland.
If they can form a company that doesn't alienate their players and business partners.

That's a tall order that I find 'not likely.'

1k marines making a difference in a battle with several millions.....how about a historical reference from a bygone time?

There was this war many years ago called the "Korean War" *GASP* yes that war. At a place called Chosin Reservoir the 18,000 marines of the 1st Marine division were cut off and surrounded by 4 chinese field armies totally around 180-200,000. In a not stop fighting withdrawal the US Marines killed or captured around 60,000 Chinese and successfully withdrew from the trap.

So that was in the 1950s and that was with a bunch of Jarheads with no better technology then the Chinese. Why do you think that genetically altered super humans wearing the best armor mankind can provide wouldn't be able to provide lightning attacks at C&C nodes throughout an enemy invading army that would cripple it?

but that is neither here nor their.

VIOLENT TAKE OVER OF GAMES WORKSHOP

WAAAAAGH!

If GW got rid of the management team and any designers that were incompetent and made serious efforts to turn 40k around and make it a good game that would be fine. I don't see that as very likely. More likely is that if things were to spiral down financially to a point where GW feels it has to respond they will likely do something but I expect it will be a botched job that doesn't begin to go far enough.

That said, if GW did suddenly collapse tomorrow I would celebrate as the company deserves to go bankrupt. And then, however slim a chance, there is a chance the IP might get bought out and 40K turned into a good game.

So yes GW having an epiphany and overhauling 40K into a good game is the ideal - but GW has shown many times that it doesn't really care about the game or customers, as long as they buy product. So if GW feels forced to change 40K it will likely be to change it in a way to get players to buy more product again rather than to improve the game.

 MWHistorian wrote:
If they get bought out, it would be good if...
If they can find fluff writers that are actually...I don't know, good and not filled with one dimensional characters and absurd ideas of scale. (1,000 marines making a difference in a battle of several millions)
If they can find rules writers that can design something more coherent than Candyland.
If they can form a company that doesn't alienate their players and business partners.

That's a tall order that I find 'not likely.'

Let me guess - you play imperial guard?

I want you to imagine something here. Imagine that we gave a Navy Seal a near indestructible suit of armor that increased his physical abilities and armed him with an automatic grenade launcher. Then we inserted him into battle at the exact time in the exact location we wanted him. How many dug in taliban do you think hed end up owning? Could they stop him at all? Probably not. Pretty sure this would make a difference no matter what kind of battle you were in.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
If they get bought out, it would be good if...
If they can find fluff writers that are actually...I don't know, good and not filled with one dimensional characters and absurd ideas of scale. (1,000 marines making a difference in a battle of several millions)
If they can find rules writers that can design something more coherent than Candyland.
If they can form a company that doesn't alienate their players and business partners.

That's a tall order that I find 'not likely.'

Let me guess - you play imperial guard?

I want you to imagine something here. Imagine that we gave a Navy Seal a near indestructible suit of armor that increased his physical abilities and armed him with an automatic grenade launcher. Then we inserted him into battle at the exact time in the exact location we wanted him. How many dug in taliban do you think hed end up owning? Could they stop him at all? Probably not. Pretty sure this would make a difference no matter what kind of battle you were in.

Nope. I had an Imperial Fist and SOB.

 MWHistorian wrote:
If they get bought out, it would be good if...
If they can find fluff writers that are actually...I don't know, good and not filled with one dimensional characters and absurd ideas of scale. (1,000 marines making a difference in a battle of several millions)
If they can find rules writers that can design something more coherent than Candyland.
If they can form a company that doesn't alienate their players and business partners.

That's a tall order that I find 'not likely.'

Which is a shame because FFG meets many of those requirements.
1. By all accounts the RPG books are fairly well written,
2. the rules, though often very simple are tight and easily understood,
3. they seem to play nice with most others.

It would be interesting if Asmodee bought GW; I don't think they're in a position to do so after their recent acquisition of FFG but it's an interesting thought. Larry Vela had an interesting take on GW v Asmodee back in January on BoLS: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/01/games-workshop-vs-asmodee-tale-2-companies.html

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
If they get bought out, it would be good if...
If they can find fluff writers that are actually...I don't know, good and not filled with one dimensional characters and absurd ideas of scale. (1,000 marines making a difference in a battle of several millions)
If they can find rules writers that can design something more coherent than Candyland.
If they can form a company that doesn't alienate their players and business partners.

That's a tall order that I find 'not likely.'

Let me guess - you play imperial guard?

I want you to imagine something here. Imagine that we gave a Navy Seal a near indestructible suit of armor that increased his physical abilities and armed him with an automatic grenade launcher. Then we inserted him into battle at the exact time in the exact location we wanted him. How many dug in taliban do you think hed end up owning? Could they stop him at all? Probably not. Pretty sure this would make a difference no matter what kind of battle you were in.

Don't need a navy seal.. Couple 19 year old paratroopers with a case of beer and rusty gurber knife could do it

 agnosto wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
If they get bought out, it would be good if...
If they can find fluff writers that are actually...I don't know, good and not filled with one dimensional characters and absurd ideas of scale. (1,000 marines making a difference in a battle of several millions)
If they can find rules writers that can design something more coherent than Candyland.
If they can form a company that doesn't alienate their players and business partners.

That's a tall order that I find 'not likely.'

Which is a shame because FFG meets many of those requirements.
1. By all accounts the RPG books are fairly well written,
2. the rules, though often very simple are tight and easily understood,
3. they seem to play nice with most others.

It would be interesting if Asmodee bought GW; I don't think they're in a position to do so after their recent acquisition of FFG but it's an interesting thought. Larry Vela had an interesting take on GW v Asmodee back in January on BoLS: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/01/games-workshop-vs-asmodee-tale-2-companies.html

FFG made a right hash of Deathwatch, by all accounts that game has very little balance.

zerosignal wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
If they get bought out, it would be good if...
If they can find fluff writers that are actually...I don't know, good and not filled with one dimensional characters and absurd ideas of scale. (1,000 marines making a difference in a battle of several millions)
If they can find rules writers that can design something more coherent than Candyland.
If they can form a company that doesn't alienate their players and business partners.

That's a tall order that I find 'not likely.'

Which is a shame because FFG meets many of those requirements.
1. By all accounts the RPG books are fairly well written,
2. the rules, though often very simple are tight and easily understood,
3. they seem to play nice with most others.

It would be interesting if Asmodee bought GW; I don't think they're in a position to do so after their recent acquisition of FFG but it's an interesting thought. Larry Vela had an interesting take on GW v Asmodee back in January on BoLS: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/01/games-workshop-vs-asmodee-tale-2-companies.html

FFG made a right hash of Deathwatch, by all accounts that game has very little balance.

I have no personal experience myself with playing the game, I was primarily speaking to the "fluff"; the rules I was referring to were in their other games as I don't think RPG rules would translate well to a wargame but people who understand and are able to write good board game rules should be able to do the same for a wargame (assumption).

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
If they get bought out, it would be good if...
If they can find fluff writers that are actually...I don't know, good and not filled with one dimensional characters and absurd ideas of scale. (1,000 marines making a difference in a battle of several millions)
If they can find rules writers that can design something more coherent than Candyland.
If they can form a company that doesn't alienate their players and business partners.

That's a tall order that I find 'not likely.'

Let me guess - you play imperial guard?

I want you to imagine something here. Imagine that we gave a Navy Seal a near indestructible suit of armor that increased his physical abilities and armed him with an automatic grenade launcher. Then we inserted him into battle at the exact time in the exact location we wanted him. How many dug in taliban do you think hed end up owning? Could they stop him at all? Probably not. Pretty sure this would make a difference no matter what kind of battle you were in.

Nope. I had an Imperial Fist and SOB.

Why play an army that you don't like the fluff?

 agnosto wrote:

zerosignal wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
If they get bought out, it would be good if...
If they can find fluff writers that are actually...I don't know, good and not filled with one dimensional characters and absurd ideas of scale. (1,000 marines making a difference in a battle of several millions)
If they can find rules writers that can design something more coherent than Candyland.
If they can form a company that doesn't alienate their players and business partners.

That's a tall order that I find 'not likely.'

Which is a shame because FFG meets many of those requirements.
1. By all accounts the RPG books are fairly well written,
2. the rules, though often very simple are tight and easily understood,
3. they seem to play nice with most others.

It would be interesting if Asmodee bought GW; I don't think they're in a position to do so after their recent acquisition of FFG but it's an interesting thought. Larry Vela had an interesting take on GW v Asmodee back in January on BoLS: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/01/games-workshop-vs-asmodee-tale-2-companies.html

FFG made a right hash of Deathwatch, by all accounts that game has very little balance.

I have no personal experience myself with playing the game, I was primarily speaking to the "fluff"; the rules I was referring to were in their other games as I don't think RPG rules would translate well to a wargame but people who understand and are able to write good board game rules should be able to do the same for a wargame (assumption).

While RPG rules don't translate well to a wargame, balance is something that should be universal. Deathwatch is pretty bad, some chapters are just amazing compared to others, and two of the "classes" are really bad.
Dark Heresy is really well balanced though.

Akiasura wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

zerosignal wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
If they get bought out, it would be good if...
If they can find fluff writers that are actually...I don't know, good and not filled with one dimensional characters and absurd ideas of scale. (1,000 marines making a difference in a battle of several millions)
If they can find rules writers that can design something more coherent than Candyland.
If they can form a company that doesn't alienate their players and business partners.

That's a tall order that I find 'not likely.'

Which is a shame because FFG meets many of those requirements.
1. By all accounts the RPG books are fairly well written,
2. the rules, though often very simple are tight and easily understood,
3. they seem to play nice with most others.

It would be interesting if Asmodee bought GW; I don't think they're in a position to do so after their recent acquisition of FFG but it's an interesting thought. Larry Vela had an interesting take on GW v Asmodee back in January on BoLS: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/01/games-workshop-vs-asmodee-tale-2-companies.html

FFG made a right hash of Deathwatch, by all accounts that game has very little balance.

I have no personal experience myself with playing the game, I was primarily speaking to the "fluff"; the rules I was referring to were in their other games as I don't think RPG rules would translate well to a wargame but people who understand and are able to write good board game rules should be able to do the same for a wargame (assumption).

While RPG rules don't translate well to a wargame, balance is something that should be universal. Deathwatch is pretty bad, some chapters are just amazing compared to others, and two of the "classes" are really bad.
Dark Heresy is really well balanced though.

How does the overall writing compare with current GW BL and staff writing? Does it seem that, balance issue aside, that the rules are understandable and clear and that the fluff is enjoyable and doesn't seem to have been written by a drunk monkey banging his/her head on the keyboard?

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'd even rather let a couple of posters from here write the books.

Well, why don't you guys do it, then? Seriously. Nine tenths of the complaints on here are about the rules - would be great if people used the same energy invested in that, and devoted it to setting up new rules and, perhaps, points/codex adjustments.

People do and have done what you're talking about, but when there's no central source of rules the community as a whole suffers. It's hard to get the community to agree on the finer details, It's GW's job to filter the community response and suggestions into a coherent rules system, they just don't give a flying feth to actually do it.

You also have to take in to account that while I'm sure a lot of dakkanauts could write better rules than GW, it's still a full time job to do so when the game is so large. Not impossible by any means, but a full time job definitely.

Since no one is going to pay us $100k a year to write rules, it's not something that most people are going to be investing the time in (especially since we wouldn't really be able to sell the rules without risking copyright infringement lawsuits).

 agnosto wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

zerosignal wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
If they get bought out, it would be good if...
If they can find fluff writers that are actually...I don't know, good and not filled with one dimensional characters and absurd ideas of scale. (1,000 marines making a difference in a battle of several millions)
If they can find rules writers that can design something more coherent than Candyland.
If they can form a company that doesn't alienate their players and business partners.

That's a tall order that I find 'not likely.'

Which is a shame because FFG meets many of those requirements.
1. By all accounts the RPG books are fairly well written,
2. the rules, though often very simple are tight and easily understood,
3. they seem to play nice with most others.

It would be interesting if Asmodee bought GW; I don't think they're in a position to do so after their recent acquisition of FFG but it's an interesting thought. Larry Vela had an interesting take on GW v Asmodee back in January on BoLS: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/01/games-workshop-vs-asmodee-tale-2-companies.html

FFG made a right hash of Deathwatch, by all accounts that game has very little balance.

I have no personal experience myself with playing the game, I was primarily speaking to the "fluff"; the rules I was referring to were in their other games as I don't think RPG rules would translate well to a wargame but people who understand and are able to write good board game rules should be able to do the same for a wargame (assumption).

While RPG rules don't translate well to a wargame, balance is something that should be universal. Deathwatch is pretty bad, some chapters are just amazing compared to others, and two of the "classes" are really bad.
Dark Heresy is really well balanced though.

How does the overall writing compare with current GW BL and staff writing? Does it seem that, balance issue aside, that the rules are understandable and clear and that the fluff is enjoyable and doesn't seem to have been written by a drunk monkey banging his/her head on the keyboard?

Overall, it seems a lot better. I think we only had one issue with the rules not being clear (something about the squad leader and how it switches). The fluff was very very good.

Akiasura wrote:


Overall, it seems a lot better. I think we only had one issue with the rules not being clear (something about the squad leader and how it switches). The fluff was very very good.

That's encouraging but also saddening from a business perspective. You would think that GW would want to tap into established, high-quality writing when it presents itself instead of just sending out an "open casting call" for potential BL writers.

My gut tells me that if the community wanted 40K to stay pretty much the way it currently is but be better written, the best thing would be for Asmodee to buy out GW. There is zero chance of this happening for a number of reasons (I feel) but that would still be our best bet. Imagine, better written rules, fluff and BL stories.... *sigh* ah well.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
1k marines making a difference in a battle with several millions.....how about a historical reference from a bygone time?

There was this war many years ago called the "Korean War" *GASP* yes that war. At a place called Chosin Reservoir the 18,000 marines of the 1st Marine division were cut off and surrounded by 4 chinese field armies totally around 180-200,000. In a not stop fighting withdrawal the US Marines killed or captured around 60,000 Chinese and successfully withdrew from the trap.

So that was in the 1950s and that was with a bunch of Jarheads with no better technology then the Chinese. Why do you think that genetically altered super humans wearing the best armor mankind can provide wouldn't be able to provide lightning attacks at C&C nodes throughout an enemy invading army that would cripple it?

but that is neither here nor their.

VIOLENT TAKE OVER OF GAMES WORKSHOP

WAAAAAGH!

Because marines don't move any faster than guardsmen. Nor do their vehicles. And they don't really live that much longer vs Xeno firepower. Marines wouldn't be able to cripple anything.

I just want a management change, most notably Kirby out.

I want a game that is worth investing into as a player. If gw failing is what is required for that to happen, then so be it.

I would not like GW to fail. I would actually like for them to be successful.

However, I feel very strongly that their actions and methods of operation of late are not in either the consumers best interests nor their own long term interests, and we have seen such through a decade long decline in Real (inflation-adjusted) revenue.


I would like GW to change, not fail.

Martel we were talking about fluff not how much you hate your space marines.

Some Marine players aren't happy unless they win an overwhelming majority of games, otherwise it's "not fluffy".

 Melissia wrote:
Some Marine players aren't happy unless they win an overwhelming majority of games, otherwise it's "not fluffy".

Or they just want to feel like they're playing Space Marines and not overpriced cannon fodder. No one said anything about winning or losing.

I wish Space Marines were represented more like they were in Rogue Trader than as these demi-gods we have today. They just exceed the realm of reality by too much (I realize that 8ft tall, genetically-modified soldiers are obviously fictional, but I still don't think it makes sense for 4-5 of them to decimate an entire planet).

 Melissia wrote:
Some Marine players aren't happy unless they win an overwhelming majority of games, otherwise it's "not fluffy".

Those are fighting words to me. I'm just asking to not be auto-tabled against Space Elves.

Fluff should be separate from rules. Save the fluff for the novels

 Chute82 wrote:
Fluff should be separate from rules. Save the fluff for the novels

They should go hand in hand, but that would take effort on the game designer's part.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Some Marine players aren't happy unless they win an overwhelming majority of games, otherwise it's "not fluffy".

Or they just want to feel like they're playing Space Marines and not overpriced cannon fodder. No one said anything about winning or losing.

The whines have always been there. This is just another excuse to do so. It just takes a very quick look at first page of almost any 40k forum to find "I wish Marines were more like movie marines".

 Melissia wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Some Marine players aren't happy unless they win an overwhelming majority of games, otherwise it's "not fluffy".

Or they just want to feel like they're playing Space Marines and not overpriced cannon fodder. No one said anything about winning or losing.

The whines have always been there. This is just another excuse to do so. It just takes a very quick look at first page of almost any 40k forum to find "I wish Marines were more like movie marines".

Makes sense...if you ignore what's actually being said.

I want GW to NOT fail like they did with eldar.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Fluff should be separate from rules. Save the fluff for the novels

They should go hand in hand, but that would take effort on the game designer's part.

I don't know this new eldar codex seems to run with their fluff more then game balance

GodDamUser wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Fluff should be separate from rules. Save the fluff for the novels

They should go hand in hand, but that would take effort on the game designer's part.

I don't know this new eldar codex seems to run with their fluff more then game balance

The idea that fluffy rules and balanced rules are mutually exclusive is a uniquely 'GW' concept that I am sure confuses anyone outside looking in who themselves didn't start with GW games. Seriously, there is nothing preventing fluffy rules being balanced other than GW's incompetence.

This thread seems a bit douchey to me. We're talking about a (worldwide) company that employs a whole lot of people to make and sell their products. Yes they have their issues to address, but do we want them to go under? No. Cause it'd make a lot of peoples' lives miserable. Not just the execs/shareholders at the top.

Some of you I think don't appreciate how upsetting putting a company into liquidation is.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
This thread seems a bit douchey to me. We're talking about a (worldwide) company that employs a whole lot of people to make and sell their products. Yes they have their issues to address, but do we want them to go under? No. Cause it'd make a lot of peoples' lives miserable. Not just the execs/shareholders at the top.

Some of you I think don't appreciate how upsetting putting a company into liquidation is.

It would certainly be the wakeup call that GW has been doing virtually everything wrong and with complete arrogance and ignorance. Sometimes the only way to right the ship is to mutiny and throw the captain overboard.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
This thread seems a bit douchey to me. We're talking about a (worldwide) company that employs a whole lot of people to make and sell their products. Yes they have their issues to address, but do we want them to go under? No. Cause it'd make a lot of peoples' lives miserable. Not just the execs/shareholders at the top.

Some of you I think don't appreciate how upsetting putting a company into liquidation is.

But not nearly as douchey as the new Eldar codex.

I'd rather have community armybooks. The base rules are fine enough. Just fix the armies, let GW make the models, which are still great, and that's it.

I know it's impossible with how people are of course. The books would have to be written from ground up and would have to be so different that people wouldn't go "You nerfed my Wraithknight I'm playing GW rules thank you very much".

 jonolikespie wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Fluff should be separate from rules. Save the fluff for the novels

They should go hand in hand, but that would take effort on the game designer's part.

I don't know this new eldar codex seems to run with their fluff more then game balance

The idea that fluffy rules and balanced rules are mutually exclusive is a uniquely 'GW' concept that I am sure confuses anyone outside looking in who themselves didn't start with GW games. Seriously, there is nothing preventing fluffy rules being balanced other than GW's incompetence.

Also, they don't do it because the fluff is often so puerile that it wouldn't make for much of a game. Something that GW, and many fans apparently, have never gotten is that you can have "grim dark sc-fi" without rubbish writing that involves a handful of super soldiers taking down entire planetary defense forces. A fluffy marine list would look like a single marine at 2000 pts; if you just go by fluff.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
This thread seems a bit douchey to me. We're talking about a (worldwide) company that employs a whole lot of people to make and sell their products. Yes they have their issues to address, but do we want them to go under? No. Cause it'd make a lot of peoples' lives miserable. Not just the execs/shareholders at the top.

Some of you I think don't appreciate how upsetting putting a company into liquidation is.

A worldwide company that has actively tried to shut down the competition (other companies) via lawsuits, getting to the point of having its employees spit blatant lies under oath in order to do so.

They deserve any gak they may get.

 agnosto wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Fluff should be separate from rules. Save the fluff for the novels

They should go hand in hand, but that would take effort on the game designer's part.

I don't know this new eldar codex seems to run with their fluff more then game balance

The idea that fluffy rules and balanced rules are mutually exclusive is a uniquely 'GW' concept that I am sure confuses anyone outside looking in who themselves didn't start with GW games. Seriously, there is nothing preventing fluffy rules being balanced other than GW's incompetence.

Also, they don't do it because the fluff is often so puerile that it wouldn't make for much of a game. Something that GW, and many fans apparently, have never gotten is that you can have "grim dark sc-fi" without rubbish writing that involves a handful of super soldiers taking down entire planetary defense forces. A fluffy marine list would look like a single marine at 2000 pts; if you just go by fluff.

But we can't have that. Otherwise mediocre BL writers would have to actualy think about the battles they send their heros in instead of letting them rush headlong into battle against everything from Gretchin to Eldar Warhosts.

 agnosto wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:
Fluff should be separate from rules. Save the fluff for the novels

They should go hand in hand, but that would take effort on the game designer's part.

I don't know this new eldar codex seems to run with their fluff more then game balance

The idea that fluffy rules and balanced rules are mutually exclusive is a uniquely 'GW' concept that I am sure confuses anyone outside looking in who themselves didn't start with GW games. Seriously, there is nothing preventing fluffy rules being balanced other than GW's incompetence.

Also, they don't do it because the fluff is often so puerile that it wouldn't make for much of a game. Something that GW, and many fans apparently, have never gotten is that you can have "grim dark sc-fi" without rubbish writing that involves a handful of super soldiers taking down entire planetary defense forces. A fluffy marine list would look like a single marine at 2000 pts; if you just go by fluff.

. If a space marine is 5x better then a ork then the point value should represent this, But it does not. They just lower the pts every new codex just to sell more crap to people. The game is a total mess and needs a complete reboot.

KingDeath wrote:

But we can't have that. Otherwise mediocre BL writers would have to actualy think about the battles they send their heros in instead of letting them rush headlong into battle against everything from Gretchin to Eldar Warhosts.

Yeah, there's a reason (actually many) that I don't read BL trash but I guess there is a market for it; heck, I enjoyed the A-Team when I was a kid.

 Korinov wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
This thread seems a bit douchey to me. We're talking about a (worldwide) company that employs a whole lot of people to make and sell their products. Yes they have their issues to address, but do we want them to go under? No. Cause it'd make a lot of peoples' lives miserable. Not just the execs/shareholders at the top.

Some of you I think don't appreciate how upsetting putting a company into liquidation is.

A worldwide company that has actively tried to shut down the competition (other companies) via lawsuits, getting to the point of having its employees spit blatant lies under oath in order to do so.

They deserve any gak they may get.

Angel, I think the other you are forgetting is the massive purge GW's upper management has already done to the company. They have cut vast swathes of jobs, liquidated all HQs and warehouses except for the one in London, moved paper good production to China, removed almost everything besides uppers and the peons in the one-man stores, who are generally replaced at exceedingly high rates (as well as blamed for the company woes, according to the most recent report). They have already made a lot of people's lives miserable, there aren't really that many left to suffer compared to ten years ago. And I think Tom Kirby will be just fine with his golden parachute.

http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?ticker=GAW:LN
Market Cap on the company is 165M
Stock price now= $7.89 USD per share
They have 32.1M shares.
I don't really understand high finance, this is more of a thought experiment. Forgive my math below.
So you'd need roughly $240,750,000.00 USD to buy all the shares. Spit balling here, if you wanted to buy the company outright they'd, want lets say, double market cap, $320M USD. So you'd need lets say $600M USD to buy the company outright and buy back all the shares. Then you can claim sole ownership, dissolve the board and answer to only yourself. Start saving/win a powerball lotto! Or form an ownership group of like minded gamers and start raising money.
Personally
I totally want them to fail and be bought out by a Consortium of companies that include a toy/model manufacturer, a video game developer and a german-style board games maker. Examples include:
Bandai or Hasbro
Sega/Relic
German-style games developer or a company headed by one of the people listed below who are all master games designers and winners of game design awards:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-style_board_game

Make two ranges of models - ones you build and paint and ones that are prebuilt and painted(both of which are acceptable for gaming). This would keep the hobbyists and attract new players.

Hire some big name sci-fi writers to retconn and fix the lore(so its well written, coherent and follows one universal narrative/timeline) and progress the storyline.

Remove all IP licensing from crap games designers and get people into the universe by making quality games on par-with top games coming out today.
Ditch MMOs. Move to Moba style games for casual players(mobile devices and pc friendly, revive dawn of war series(pc and consoles), Card based game(mobile), Squad based-FPS like Gears of War or Call of duty and a character based adventure game like a drakes fortune or resident evil, focused around an epic character as he/she moves across a planet. Draigos adventures!

The Games designer re-works the tabletop game to make it extremely balanced. - I'm partial to the German-style game design applied to 40k because in the long run it will grow the game and take out the hardcore elements much to the neckbeards and hardcore tourney players disgust. Obviously the main hangup with german-style games is that they are no combat focused so that would have to change. However the design theory and play elements are what you want.
Below are snipits from the Wikipedia entry on German-style game design if you are not familiar:

Easy and short
German-style games are usually multiplayer and can be learned easily and played in a relatively short time, perhaps multiple times in a single session. A certain amount of socializing might typically be expected during game play,
Simple rules
German-style games are generally simpler than the wargames that flourished in the 1970s and 1980s from publishers such as SPI and Avalon Hill, but nonetheless often have a considerable depth of play, especially in some "gamers' games" such as Tigris and Euphrates and Caylus.
Games made for everyone
While many titles (especially the strategically heavier ones) are enthusiastically played by gamers as a hobby, German-style games are, for the most part, well suited to social play. In keeping with this social function, various characteristics of the games tend to support that aspect well, and these have become quite common across the genre.

No player elimination - This is a big one.
Another prominent characteristic of these games is the lack of player elimination. Eliminating players before the end of the game is seen as contrary to the social aspect of such games. Most of these games are designed to keep all players in the game as long as possible, so it is rare to be certain of victory or defeat until relatively late in the game. Some of the mechanics, like hidden scoring or scoring at the end of the game, are also designed around this avoidance of player elimination.
Balancing mechanisms are often integrated into the rules, giving slight advantages to lagging players and slight hindrances to the leaders. This helps to keep the game competitive to the very end.

Lastly, Game mechanics - These games contain elements we are used to.
A wide variety of often innovative mechanisms or mechanics are used, and familiar mechanics like rolling dice and moving, capture, or trick taking are avoided. If a game has a board, the board is usually irregular rather than uniform or symmetric (like Risk rather than chess or Scrabble); the board is often random (like Settlers of Catan) or has random elements (like Tikal). Some boards are merely mnemonic or organizational and contribute only to ease of play, like a cribbage board; examples of this include Puerto Rico and Princes of Florence. Random elements are often present, but do not usually dominate the game. While rules are light to moderate, they allow depth of play, usually requiring thought, planning, and a shift of tactics through the game and often with a chess- or backgammon-like opening game, middle game, and end game.

Naaris wrote:
The Games designer re-works the tabletop game to make it extremely balanced. - I'm partial to the German-style game design applied to 40k because in the long run it will grow the game and take out the hardcore elements much to the neckbeards and hardcore tourney players disgust.

The price, complexity, and time investment of 40k do more to kill the game's mass appeal than any kind of codex imbalance. It's funny because a lot of the more dramatic complainers in this thread don't seem to grok that.

Good post mate. Knowing a bit about game design in general (not just pertaining to 40k) is worthwhile in these discussions.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Naaris wrote:
The Games designer re-works the tabletop game to make it extremely balanced. - I'm partial to the German-style game design applied to 40k because in the long run it will grow the game and take out the hardcore elements much to the neckbeards and hardcore tourney players disgust.

The price, complexity, and time investment of 40k do more to kill the game's mass appeal than any kind of codex imbalance. It's funny because a lot of the more dramatic complainers in this thread don't seem to grok that.

That's because most of the "dramatic complainers" in the thread are players or ex players, and consequently prove that neither price, complexity or time commitments were sufficient to discourage their participation, but the rules imbalance is.

The marine players want the marines to be as powerful as they are in the fluff. This is understandable.
the thing is, if that were true, a squad of 10 tacticals could take out a 2,000 point army of pretty much anything without batting an eye and likely without losing a single "man". The marine players want that power but to keep the full size armies and points values they currently have. To have their cake and eat it too so to speak. However, thats a topic for a different thread.

far too many have on rose tinted glasses thinking that GW failing automatically means that the IP will be picked up by some guru who will "magically" make everything better. Even if that were to be the case, not every player would be happy. You would just be trading which players are unhappy for others and vice versa.
But the fact is, the chances of the IP being "picked up" are practically non-existant. And the chances of it being picked up by someone who would care enough about the game to keep it going and not put it down the tubes are about 100% times less likely yet. If we care about the game, fluff "universe" of 40k, the best thing we could hope for is to have a radical change in management and the heads of the different "teams".

I want GW the IP holder and it's stories and character to live-on.
The management at the helm to be gone, the faster the better.

All it takes is any of the top 3 management to actually care about the product as entertainment and it could be far more than it is now.

If one must "throw the baby out with the bathwater" and shut down GW to get rid of their management and there is no other means: then the answer is yes.

I could go into long-winded reasoning... but no, get rid of that management, now.

I want them to change. I don't actually think that failure would be good because, to be blunt, the current investment community prioritizes payout to stockholders over stable company growth, to the point where foundational/flagship products tend to be gutted when something is acquired. And because Warhammer and especially 40K has had some 'modern' successes-- Dawn of War, for example-- that were divorced from the tabletop, we could very easily see the 'traditional' IP neglected or even dropped to whatever minimum is necessary to keep the rights in order to exploit the gak out of peripheral IP like DoW. And that doesn't just mean 'good' games; imagine Dawn of War not in the hands of Your Favorite Studio but in the hands of the studio with the biggest advertisement presence and lowest bid. Imagine Gaunt's Ghosts or Ciaphas Cain hitting the silver screen... in Uwe Boll's hands. Trust me, folks, things can get worse. They can always get worse.

New models and rules aren't a bad thing; in fact, they're necessary to keep the environment dynamic. Ditto new editions. But the way that they're handled by GW is the problem, and it comes back down to the attitude of "we don't do market research." I'm sure someone over there thinks that makes them edgy and indy, but what it actually means is "We don't want to hear from you peons, unless it's the sound of your money." New models, rules, and new editions would help if they were competitive with the rest of the market-- or better yet, underpricing and upping quality. Given how cheap industrial 3D printers are-- and how cheap _personal_ 3D printers are getting, if GW doesn't expand the marketplace soon, there's going to be a critical drop.

Put it another way-- if I have to spend $350 to get into the hobby, and maybe twice that at the 1500-2000 level, and it costs what, about $200 to get a 3D printer capable of making small to medium units or better yet, pseudosprues, I'm going to be taking a long, hard look at raw materials and maintenance costs. And as that number drops, it becomes easier and easier for people who _can't_ usually make large outlays at once to cut in. Then there's the rules thing; to KEEP loyalty and interest in new models, rather than resentment of their interest, the rules need to support a changing meta without becoming the only thing worth buying. That takes real, extensive, out-of-house playtesting, even if it means mailing your playtesters appropriately sized and approximately shaped cardboard boxes with the names of the units on the side so they can test them in play. Without data, you WILL end up polarizing.

To be plainly blunt, having a-- what, $350 or more price tag for a beginning army at even the 1K level unless you scrounge here and e-bay, is immensely stupid. While luxury goods have stayed slightly ahead of inflation, hobby games can't afford to follow luxury goods. Especially not the wargame/roleplaying game contingent. Our market is shrinking, rather than growing. If we're going to expand the market, we need to look at the people we want to get into the game.

By 'want', by the by, I don't mean "the sort of people you want to play with in an ideal situation." I mean we want teenagers, not just boys but girls, and on the latter, we don't want nerf's purple and pink sparkle guns. We want obsessives; and if it means occasionally having to teach and make compromises, we need to do that. Because that means that when they grow up-- or in some cases, as they are now, there are some mature teenagers out there just like there are some tweebish adults-- we don't have to drive 30 miles to get a game; it means strategies and lists get stress tested, and most importantly, a broad fanbase helps insure against economic downturn.

The only way to do it is to make sure that getting in at the 500 point level doesn't cost more than $100 for a _midrange to competive_ if cookie-cutter army. The best way I can think of it is this: make a triple tier. First Tier is "original mage knights" quality. Precolored, cruddy (but not TOO cruddy) molds, and cheap as feth. Small mini range; basically enough for people to start a new army and play with it, but not enough that they aren't willing to go to Tier 2: current quality using modern methods to increase the cheapness. NEITHER of these tiers should cost anything like our current range. And then a "Collector's Tier" including industrial/commercial-quality 3D printing of custom models. If I didn't have to sacrifice hundreds to get an army, period, I wouldn't mind occasionally having to sink $50 into a single model if it meant it was goddamn gorgeous.

GW needs to change so that people don't say "I want some scifi wargaming... but that game over there costs half of what this one does, so..." and walking away from fluff they enjoy to a game they can perform. And given the technical breakthroughs recently, there's no excuse for the current prices and durability issues.

I don't think we need to simplify the rules too much at this point; most of them are "do what they say." But flavorful or not, things like "And They Shall Know No Fear" need to be replaced with "Stubborn 2" or something. And the points budget needs to be balanced. Again, see playtesting.

Do I think the current group is likely to do that? Nope. Looks like more of the same, even with the new CEO. But they're still human beings and that means they have the ability and the responsibility to learn. I suppose I'd like them to ALMOST fail and then actually learn something. The problem is, I don't know GW's investors. If they're standard investors, a near fail won't be a lesson, it'll be an excuse to tear apart the company anyway.

 Azreal13 wrote:
That's because most of the "dramatic complainers" in the thread are players or ex players, and consequently prove that neither price, complexity or time commitments were sufficient to discourage their participation, but the rules imbalance is.

"Mass appeal" dude. I see a lot of people playing cards in hostels whole traveling. Some backgammon too. Or there's probably social games nights at the bar in your own city.

You won't ever see 40k around these situations because there's too much drag involved to get started. So in terms of reach, less barriers to entry = more players. It's not rocket science. Otherwise you're pitching to a very limited market

 Blacksails wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
No. GW is awesome.

How's the kool-aid?

Tasting great. It's watermelon-flavored.

Yoyoyo wrote:
So in terms of reach, less barriers to entry = more players. It's not rocket science. Otherwise you're pitching to a very limited market

Which is only part of the equation. You won't retain customers, regardless of the barrier to entry, if the rules are garbage. Barriers to entry are just that; only relevant for getting new blood in. Keeping them will depend on other factors like rules, fluff, and models. That's not even considering that if the rules are poor and the balance is off that some players may be turned away if the faction they want to play is terribly underpowered. If I started 40k now and tried to sort out the mess and balance issues as a newcomer, I'd be very put off.

But you know this isn't rocket science, eh?

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
That's because most of the "dramatic complainers" in the thread are players or ex players, and consequently prove that neither price, complexity or time commitments were sufficient to discourage their participation, but the rules imbalance is.

"Mass appeal" dude. I see a lot of people playing cards in hostels whole traveling. Some backgammon too. Or there's probably social games nights at the bar in your own city.

You won't ever see 40k around these situations because there's too much drag involved to get started. So in terms of reach, less barriers to entry = more players. It's not rocket science. Otherwise you're pitching to a very limited market

But that's an apples and oranges situation, you will never see someone playing a full blooded war game with a couple of forces, terrain, dice templates etc while travelling out of a rucksack. I could apply your same argument to video gaming, with the exception of a few handheld devices (a good comparison to CCGs or Backgammon) the up front investment and demands on space etc could be considered a drag to get started, doesn't seem to be holding that sector back any. Actually, pretty much any hobby which requires any sort of equipment and skill to perform would substitute almost as well.

You're right in the sense that less barriers to entry is a good thing, but there are certain presuppositions attached to any tabletop wargame that will remain inherent unless you change the nature of the beast beyond all recognition. What 40K does is take those existing and inherent barriers to entry and jack them up to 11.

I love 40k so I don't want GW to fail, just change.
what I do want to see 'die' is the constant bitching from people. the models are personal taste. if you don't like them dont use them. as for the rules, im not totally down with the rules side, but if you don't quite like the a certain rule alter it to suit you. we're all free thinking adults, so childish "its not exactly how I want it, so I hate it" is stupid

not trying to start a flame war, just expressing my opinion

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
No. GW is awesome.

How's the kool-aid?

Tasting great. It's watermelon-flavored.

Dewd, watermelon koolade is for posers. Real GW faithful drink KhornAde! One flavor, blood-red for the blood god.

Honestly, I don't care about GW. Let them fail, let them be replaced, let them stay their course. As long as I have 40k, and I'm having fun playing, I simply don't care about GW itself.

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
I love 40k so I don't want GW to fail, just change.
what I do want to see 'die' is the constant bitching from people. the models are personal taste. if you don't like them dont use them. as for the rules, im not totally down with the rules side, but if you don't quite like the a certain rule alter it to suit you. we're all free thinking adults, so childish "its not exactly how I want it, so I hate it" is stupid

not trying to start a flame war, just expressing my opinion

It's not "its not exactly how I want it, so I hate it" is stupid." It's "GW has turned a game I love into something I really don't enjoy anymore."
Also, not everyone has the luxury of a close knit group that can fix the poor rules to how they see fit.

I will say that i'd prefer gw to remain as it is than to disappear completely. While i no longer play their games, the entertainment value i get from watching their business practices is rather large. Is it possible for them to keep performing dick moves against their fans and losing customers while continuing to remain in business as they are?

 Torga_DW wrote:
I will say that i'd prefer gw to remain as it is than to disappear completely. While i no longer play their games, the entertainment value i get from watching their business practices is rather large. Is it possible for them to keep performing dick moves against their fans and losing customers while continuing to remain in business as they are?

Their accountants are apparently very good at what they do. It seems like on their current path GW can continue to shrink just faster thn they are losing customers to keep their numbers in the black.
That means we are likely to get a few more years of dumb decisions out of them, in increasing severity as the end approaches, but when the end comes it will be a quiet, little death s only the most hard core fans will still be playing the game at that point.

I really hope something else happens to stop or speed that up though, people quietly losing interest as they are could lead to no one seeing value in the IP when they do die whereas if they died tomorrow the setting is guaranteed to live on.

I would never flame someone because GW's insanity just begs for controversial posts. I personally think they deserve to go down in flames, but I can understand the opposing view.

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
I love 40k so I don't want GW to fail, just change.
what I do want to see 'die' is the constant bitching from people. the models are personal taste. if you don't like them dont use them. as for the rules, im not totally down with the rules side, but if you don't quite like the a certain rule alter it to suit you. we're all free thinking adults, so childish "its not exactly how I want it, so I hate it" is stupid

not trying to start a flame war, just expressing my opinion

Tries not to start a flame war, calls all opinions contrary to his "bitching" and "stupid"

I think it's a valid position that 40K is not even *close* to being exactly the way I want it, so I ignored that part of the statement.

I just don't get the rational of "Oh, you don't like GW? Well then I DON'T LIKE YOU!"

They're a freaking company. That sells plastic miniatures. They aren't your family, you don't need to rise up and swing at someone giving them flak.

 Accolade wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
This thread seems a bit douchey to me. We're talking about a (worldwide) company that employs a whole lot of people to make and sell their products. Yes they have their issues to address, but do we want them to go under? No. Cause it'd make a lot of peoples' lives miserable. Not just the execs/shareholders at the top.

Some of you I think don't appreciate how upsetting putting a company into liquidation is.

A worldwide company that has actively tried to shut down the competition (other companies) via lawsuits, getting to the point of having its employees spit blatant lies under oath in order to do so.

They deserve any gak they may get.

Angel, I think the other you are forgetting is the massive purge GW's upper management has already done to the company. They have cut vast swathes of jobs, liquidated all HQs and warehouses except for the one in London, moved paper good production to China, removed almost everything besides uppers and the peons in the one-man stores, who are generally replaced at exceedingly high rates (as well as blamed for the company woes, according to the most recent report). They have already made a lot of people's lives miserable, there aren't really that many left to suffer compared to ten years ago. And I think Tom Kirby will be just fine with his golden parachute.

Good point. The GW I go to is on its 5th manager in 2 years. They just now hired a new manager over 2 months after the last one was fired. The part time fill in guy has a real day job so the store was open 5-8 wed-Fri, 12-8 Saturday and 12-5 sunday. Then they wonder why we all started going to other stores.

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
I love 40k so I don't want GW to fail, just change.
what I do want to see 'die' is the constant bitching from people. the models are personal taste. if you don't like them dont use them. as for the rules, im not totally down with the rules side, but if you don't quite like the a certain rule alter it to suit you. we're all free thinking adults, so childish "its not exactly how I want it, so I hate it" is stupid

not trying to start a flame war, just expressing my opinion

If I buy a Bugatti and it doesn't run right, I don't expect to have to fix it myself. I expect the company making the most expensive item on the market to have it working properly when they release it. GW has by far the most expensive rules of any gaming company. Their rules also need more fixing than any other gaming company. Your little solution only applies to a small fraction of the community. When I'm in a league, we can't just change the rules however we want. When I'm in a tournament, we can't just change the rules. If I'm playing against a random person, I don't want to spend 30 minutes arguing over how/what to fix in the rulebook. That suggestion is asinine. I can't think of any other industry where fans of a certain brand would say "if your $200 item is faulty when you receive it, fix it yourself. The company will just tell you you're using it wrong if you ask them to fix it." The blind fanboyism flies in the face of all logic and reason. Keep drinking the Kool aid...

I have been playing since 1990 ( rogue trader at the time ) I own 15 fully painted armies and have spent tens of thousands of dollars through the years ..... I finally left the game a few months back. GW is so bad at creating a coherent rule set that all they have left players with is pure chaos ( pun not intended ).
It's sad and a shame really , the execs at the company are just mailing it in , putting every single mistake they make on the backs of the gamers and increasing the price to the point that there are very few new players .
So to answer the OP's original question ...it doesn't matter what I want ....GW is failing all on it's own . I know it's been said before but this time I really think they have reached a tipping point , the game is so expensive and the rule set so completely bananas that I don't feel like they will bounce back . They have annihilated the competitive scene , so it's clear they just want to be a model company that's fine if they had affordable models but they don't even have that .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
I love 40k so I don't want GW to fail, just change.
what I do want to see 'die' is the constant bitching from people. the models are personal taste. if you don't like them dont use them. as for the rules, im not totally down with the rules side, but if you don't quite like the a certain rule alter it to suit you. we're all free thinking adults, so childish "its not exactly how I want it, so I hate it" is stupid

not trying to start a flame war, just expressing my opinion

Yeah but I don't want to spend $100+ on a rule book and dex and then have to design my own game .....c'mon man that's a crazy way to approach a business .

If I want to be a game designer then I would design my own game !

I want to see them fail in a loud and spectacular fashion and I want to hear the lamentations of their wome.....er, fanboy white knights!

I LOVE GW AND THEIR MODELS/GAME!!!

Considering how many other games are being made by FFGs atm under the warhammer/40k umbrella I would find it hard to see any outcome of GW caving in which FFGs didn't spend whatever they needed to to pick up the IP.

Do I want FFG to run 40k? feth yes! Do you have any idea how much better balanced the codexes would be?

Ok, first I apologise for sounding ignorant/white knight or whatever. I'm also sorry if I offended anyone.
GW should take responsibility for their problems and also should try to understand what customers want, unfortunately they won't because 'we don't do market research'. Gw is trying though. I don't think we'd have got Mechanicus and Skitarii otherwise
If management changed and they joined the modern era and did some market research then perhaps things would get better (and hopefully chaos would get a decent codex compared to SM)

Simple answer: i don't really care anymore, GW are good for the paints and thats it.

Given the rise of other games at my club, mostly Warmahordes and a few others. Most of us now have either go rid of all our GW stuff or are in the process of doing so. (i'm considering dumping my Tau and leaving the IG/AM as the "strategic reserve".)

Frankly apart from the price gripes, its the rules. Utterly inconsistent, full of WTF moments and other crap that is now a bore to play.

Its where WM/H and PP get it right to be blunt: good gameplay that is consistent and well rounded with plenty of variety that results in fun games all round, even in a tournament setting. Within the caveat that it requires a steep learning curve to kick out the GW mentality.

If GW failed and no one picked up their IP, the game would stop being updated in every direction at once. It would all settle down and then people would start making fixed rules to balance it, and sooner or later one would prove better than the rest, become famous and become the "accepted standard."

So basically, if GW failed, we'd lose getting new models and would gain a much better ruleset.

I'd be ok with that.

I'd personally be very happy if GW died and none of it's rules designers found work in the industry ever again and the IP got picked up by more competent people. The thought of Jervis Johnson having to work a cubicle job at a faceless insurance company for the rest of his days pleases me mightily.

 Kain wrote:
I'd personally be very happy if GW died and none of it's rules designers found work in the industry ever again and the IP got picked up by more competent people. The thought of Jervis Johnson having to work a cubicle job at a faceless insurance company for the rest of his days pleases me mightily.

Thry have good designers; let's be fair here. Plenty have moved on to bigger and better things. Thryre not the movers and shakers within the company. Sure, thry get their faces in white dwarf, but it's nothing more than pr. They have no power to direct the game; they're beholden to others.mThe problem is the company culture that creates a lack of creative freedom and multiple, conflicting and ever changing design goals for the writers. Often from corporate suits with little interest or understanding of gaming- it's about selling models, and manipulating the face to continue going that. Ultimately, the design studio is a name only, they're minions, given directives and timelines, not creative freedom to do what needs done. Gw is a hire and fire company, and plenty there simply doesn't have the job security or the clout to push for what needs done.

Deadnight wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I'd personally be very happy if GW died and none of it's rules designers found work in the industry ever again and the IP got picked up by more competent people. The thought of Jervis Johnson having to work a cubicle job at a faceless insurance company for the rest of his days pleases me mightily.

Thry have good designers; let's be fair here. Plenty have moved on to bigger and better things. Thryre not the movers and shakers within the company. Sure, thry get their faces in white dwarf, but it's nothing more than pr. They have no power to direct the game; they're beholden to others.mThe problem is the company culture that creates a lack of creative freedom and multiple, conflicting and ever changing design goals for the writers. Often from corporate suits with little interest or understanding of gaming- it's about selling models, and manipulating the face to continue going that. Ultimately, the design studio is a name only, they're minions, given directives and timelines, not creative freedom to do what needs done. Gw is a hire and fire company, and plenty there simply doesn't have the job security or the clout to push for what needs done.

Some blame has to lie with the writers. There's crap in the 7th rulebook that is still fethed up from the 6th rulebook and would have taken all of 30 seconds to fix but they didn't. And the lack of realistic playtesting, some of that has to lie on the game writer's shoulders unless they despise their own game to the point they don't even play it in their free time and/or against anyone outside the studio and/or read online comments.

Yes it's bad that you have to fix 100$ rulebook, that's why I stopped buying their rules. What about the models though, GW fails and that might be it.

Lance845 wrote:
Considering how many other games are being made by FFGs atm under the warhammer/40k umbrella I would find it hard to see any outcome of GW caving in which FFGs didn't spend whatever they needed to to pick up the IP.

Do I want FFG to run 40k? feth yes! Do you have any idea how much better balanced the codexes would be?

What makes you think so? Chaos in the Old World boardgame is unbalanced and that's few factions, basicaly every game of theirs I played that had asymetrical faction had balance problems. Dust Tactics had 2 factions and was just as unbalanced and terrain dependent as 40k. Also FFGs 40k art is atrocious imo, at least what is in Dark Heresy. I find that book getting me out of 40k mood instead of getting me more in.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Yes it's bad that you have to fix 100$ rulebook, that's why I stopped buying their rules. What about the models though, GW fails and that might be it.

Lance845 wrote:
Considering how many other games are being made by FFGs atm under the warhammer/40k umbrella I would find it hard to see any outcome of GW caving in which FFGs didn't spend whatever they needed to to pick up the IP.

Do I want FFG to run 40k? feth yes! Do you have any idea how much better balanced the codexes would be?

What makes you think so? Chaos in the Old World boardgame is unbalanced and that's few factions, basicaly every game of theirs I played that had asymetrical faction had balance problems. Dust Tactics had 2 factions and was just as unbalanced and terrain dependent as 40k. Also FFGs 40k art is atrocious imo, at least what is in Dark Heresy. I find that book getting me out of 40k mood instead of getting me more in.

TBF, I think FFG is/was just a distributor for Dust.

The copyrightable portions of Dust Tactics are © 2010 - 2013 Dust Studio, Ltd. Dust and Dust Tactics are trademarks of Dust Studio, Ltd. All rights reserved.

And the fluff writing for the 40k stuff appears to actually been written by a rational human with an above 3rd grade intelligence vs the trash that comes out of BL.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Yes it's bad that you have to fix 100$ rulebook, that's why I stopped buying their rules. What about the models though, GW fails and that might be it.

Lance845 wrote:
Considering how many other games are being made by FFGs atm under the warhammer/40k umbrella I would find it hard to see any outcome of GW caving in which FFGs didn't spend whatever they needed to to pick up the IP.

Do I want FFG to run 40k? feth yes! Do you have any idea how much better balanced the codexes would be?

What makes you think so? Chaos in the Old World boardgame is unbalanced and that's few factions, basicaly every game of theirs I played that had asymetrical faction had balance problems. Dust Tactics had 2 factions and was just as unbalanced and terrain dependent as 40k. Also FFGs 40k art is atrocious imo, at least what is in Dark Heresy. I find that book getting me out of 40k mood instead of getting me more in.

Because while FFG does hit some problems with their initial release of very complicated games. They tend to fix almost if not all those problems with a second edition. And they incorporate lessons learned into their other products. Less and less problems these years and more and more entertainment.

@Lance ok fair enough. Still I'd want GW to outsorce rules only with models art and fluff still in their hands.

@agnosto Didnt know that I have yet to read the instruction despite having dozens of games under my belt, I trust my friends heh. Dont have the box only models. Still their boardgames are not balanced and you'd think a closed environment is easier to balance even if you take more complicated rules into account.

Also I don't really want rational, intelligent, depth etc anywhere near 40k. It's supposed to be absurd billion on billion battles running down the impossible hills shooting suns at each other, an ott background for a tt wargame not a Dune competitor in space fantasy field. I cringe at the sense and realism brigade take on 40k tbh, sure I want it better written and tad less absurd than Ward but a tad only.

It's impossible to look past the far future where humanity's tanks only hit half the time. Our tanks in 2015 hit over 95% of the time today, even for tier 2 tanks. It's called a computer. Get some or lose the war.

So yeah, I think their fluff is really stupid.

Martel732 wrote:
It's impossible to look past the far future where humanity's tanks only hit half the time. Our tanks in 2015 hit over 95% of the time today, even for tier 2 tanks. It's called a computer. Get some or lose the war.

So yeah, I think their fluff is really stupid.

40k's fluff is whatever you want it to be because 40k has no canon at all.

Fanfiction is as valid as a codex.

Why? GW can't be bothered to set canon in stone, that's too much work.

Also as an Ex-Tanker in the Russian Army and someone who's tried Modern Wargames, I'd say that Modern Warfare Wargames don't really represent the accuracy of modern tanks very well either (while similarly infantry are way too accurate.)

Martel732 wrote:
It's impossible to look past the far future where humanity's tanks only hit half the time. Our tanks in 2015 hit over 95% of the time today, even for tier 2 tanks. It's called a computer. Get some or lose the war.

So yeah, I think their fluff is really stupid.

That's rules and not really a way to judge the fluff, rules are abstracted. Also Imperium is more of modernised and wierder WWI and WWII in space, personaly I think SM predators should shoot everything at full BS and generaly be a bit more hi tech because special forces and power armour but it doesnt bother me really because 40k is absurd. Applying logic is a road to disapointment.

Many games abstract the rules resolution to arrive at intuitive results that are easy to arrive at.
( They simplify the factors in the resolution to make it easy to understand and quick to resolve.)

40k rules abstract the resolution , and the results! So there is no constant logical progression or frame work of understanding for the players to use.

In the military, wargames done there have engagements resolved by experienced or very learned commanders determining who should logically win rather than by dice. It's generally been this way since Prussia started up kriegspiel in the 1800s.

So by military standards, pretty much anything that uses dice to derive results is going to be wonky as a wargame. :U

 Kain wrote:
In the military, wargames done there have engagements resolved by experienced or very learned commanders determining who should logically win rather than by dice. It's generally been this way since Prussia started up kriegspiel in the 1800s.

So by military standards, pretty much anything that uses dice to derive results is going to be wonky as a wargame. :U

Having been in the army for ten years I can safely say that the military doesn't have a firm grasp on the concept of 'fun.'
We want a fun game, not a simulation used by soulless officers.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Kain wrote:
In the military, wargames done there have engagements resolved by experienced or very learned commanders determining who should logically win rather than by dice. It's generally been this way since Prussia started up kriegspiel in the 1800s.

So by military standards, pretty much anything that uses dice to derive results is going to be wonky as a wargame. :U

Having been in the army for ten years I can safely say that the military doesn't have a firm grasp on the concept of 'fun.'
We want a fun game, not a simulation used by soulless officers.

LOL. Exalted

 MWHistorian wrote:

We want a fun game, not a simulation used by soulless officers.

Hey now, some officers have souls!

 agnosto wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
No. GW is awesome.

How's the kool-aid?

Tasting great. It's watermelon-flavored.

Dewd, watermelon koolade is for posers. Real GW faithful drink KhornAde! One flavor, blood-red for the blood god.

OK I will now drink cherry flavored.

My response is long in thought but not one that is unique. Over 15 years the fall from greatness that was the turn of the century. I have been around GW from the 90s and trolled the sites for years. Unfortunately the spark that was, has been smothered and the inspirations are gone. It beckons back to the days BEFORE GW lawyers ~ see the shimmering waives of days past.

When every hobby shop hosted a board or supported a website of some kind and sales and competition made GW the powerhouse it is\was not bulling and legal gerrymandering to get a bigger cut. (Hey GW a sale is a sale and a walk away is not.) I have seen when hobby shops had entire walls dedicated to 40K and WH now only a few models not even whole lines.

When tournaments had rules of the base model or %50 or so GW the rest could be custom. As long as the paperwork was good and the model was WYSIWYG, game on. When add-ons and ideas were revered and out of the box thinking was praised with golden statues, big swords and admiration of hundreds sometimes thousands. Where GW did not build the next round of models as a way to make it harder to customize or cannibalize but had great details for inside and outsides of the model. Parts shops were not put out of business because they sold parts rather just another way to make money (back to a sale is a sale).

When fluff and stories that toed the GW line but strayed from the path were not scraped from the internet and hunted like witches, think Fluff Bible, 13 legion.
It is unfortunate but at some time I think the leadership at GW forgot they were a game maker, a toy maker, an entertainer, an imagineer, a story teller, a dreamer. The game became a business that lost focus on what makes a game like WH and WH40K work and that is creativity.

I would hope for the fun of the hobby(s) that if new leadership would get into power it would look back and see what worked openness and what did not. And if they looked forward they may look at the Lego model that is open to uniqueness and exceptional works and ideas from those that support, play, build, and promote the game.

I think if GW keeps on the path it will be a gonner.