Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
No. GW is awesome.

How's the kool-aid?

Tasting great. It's watermelon-flavored.

Dewd, watermelon koolade is for posers. Real GW faithful drink KhornAde! One flavor, blood-red for the blood god.

Honestly, I don't care about GW. Let them fail, let them be replaced, let them stay their course. As long as I have 40k, and I'm having fun playing, I simply don't care about GW itself.

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
I love 40k so I don't want GW to fail, just change.
what I do want to see 'die' is the constant bitching from people. the models are personal taste. if you don't like them dont use them. as for the rules, im not totally down with the rules side, but if you don't quite like the a certain rule alter it to suit you. we're all free thinking adults, so childish "its not exactly how I want it, so I hate it" is stupid

not trying to start a flame war, just expressing my opinion

It's not "its not exactly how I want it, so I hate it" is stupid." It's "GW has turned a game I love into something I really don't enjoy anymore."
Also, not everyone has the luxury of a close knit group that can fix the poor rules to how they see fit.

I will say that i'd prefer gw to remain as it is than to disappear completely. While i no longer play their games, the entertainment value i get from watching their business practices is rather large. Is it possible for them to keep performing dick moves against their fans and losing customers while continuing to remain in business as they are?

 Torga_DW wrote:
I will say that i'd prefer gw to remain as it is than to disappear completely. While i no longer play their games, the entertainment value i get from watching their business practices is rather large. Is it possible for them to keep performing dick moves against their fans and losing customers while continuing to remain in business as they are?

Their accountants are apparently very good at what they do. It seems like on their current path GW can continue to shrink just faster thn they are losing customers to keep their numbers in the black.
That means we are likely to get a few more years of dumb decisions out of them, in increasing severity as the end approaches, but when the end comes it will be a quiet, little death s only the most hard core fans will still be playing the game at that point.

I really hope something else happens to stop or speed that up though, people quietly losing interest as they are could lead to no one seeing value in the IP when they do die whereas if they died tomorrow the setting is guaranteed to live on.

I would never flame someone because GW's insanity just begs for controversial posts. I personally think they deserve to go down in flames, but I can understand the opposing view.

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
I love 40k so I don't want GW to fail, just change.
what I do want to see 'die' is the constant bitching from people. the models are personal taste. if you don't like them dont use them. as for the rules, im not totally down with the rules side, but if you don't quite like the a certain rule alter it to suit you. we're all free thinking adults, so childish "its not exactly how I want it, so I hate it" is stupid

not trying to start a flame war, just expressing my opinion

Tries not to start a flame war, calls all opinions contrary to his "bitching" and "stupid"

I think it's a valid position that 40K is not even *close* to being exactly the way I want it, so I ignored that part of the statement.

I just don't get the rational of "Oh, you don't like GW? Well then I DON'T LIKE YOU!"

They're a freaking company. That sells plastic miniatures. They aren't your family, you don't need to rise up and swing at someone giving them flak.

 Accolade wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
This thread seems a bit douchey to me. We're talking about a (worldwide) company that employs a whole lot of people to make and sell their products. Yes they have their issues to address, but do we want them to go under? No. Cause it'd make a lot of peoples' lives miserable. Not just the execs/shareholders at the top.

Some of you I think don't appreciate how upsetting putting a company into liquidation is.

A worldwide company that has actively tried to shut down the competition (other companies) via lawsuits, getting to the point of having its employees spit blatant lies under oath in order to do so.

They deserve any gak they may get.

Angel, I think the other you are forgetting is the massive purge GW's upper management has already done to the company. They have cut vast swathes of jobs, liquidated all HQs and warehouses except for the one in London, moved paper good production to China, removed almost everything besides uppers and the peons in the one-man stores, who are generally replaced at exceedingly high rates (as well as blamed for the company woes, according to the most recent report). They have already made a lot of people's lives miserable, there aren't really that many left to suffer compared to ten years ago. And I think Tom Kirby will be just fine with his golden parachute.

Good point. The GW I go to is on its 5th manager in 2 years. They just now hired a new manager over 2 months after the last one was fired. The part time fill in guy has a real day job so the store was open 5-8 wed-Fri, 12-8 Saturday and 12-5 sunday. Then they wonder why we all started going to other stores.

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
I love 40k so I don't want GW to fail, just change.
what I do want to see 'die' is the constant bitching from people. the models are personal taste. if you don't like them dont use them. as for the rules, im not totally down with the rules side, but if you don't quite like the a certain rule alter it to suit you. we're all free thinking adults, so childish "its not exactly how I want it, so I hate it" is stupid

not trying to start a flame war, just expressing my opinion

If I buy a Bugatti and it doesn't run right, I don't expect to have to fix it myself. I expect the company making the most expensive item on the market to have it working properly when they release it. GW has by far the most expensive rules of any gaming company. Their rules also need more fixing than any other gaming company. Your little solution only applies to a small fraction of the community. When I'm in a league, we can't just change the rules however we want. When I'm in a tournament, we can't just change the rules. If I'm playing against a random person, I don't want to spend 30 minutes arguing over how/what to fix in the rulebook. That suggestion is asinine. I can't think of any other industry where fans of a certain brand would say "if your $200 item is faulty when you receive it, fix it yourself. The company will just tell you you're using it wrong if you ask them to fix it." The blind fanboyism flies in the face of all logic and reason. Keep drinking the Kool aid...

I have been playing since 1990 ( rogue trader at the time ) I own 15 fully painted armies and have spent tens of thousands of dollars through the years ..... I finally left the game a few months back. GW is so bad at creating a coherent rule set that all they have left players with is pure chaos ( pun not intended ).
It's sad and a shame really , the execs at the company are just mailing it in , putting every single mistake they make on the backs of the gamers and increasing the price to the point that there are very few new players .
So to answer the OP's original question ...it doesn't matter what I want ....GW is failing all on it's own . I know it's been said before but this time I really think they have reached a tipping point , the game is so expensive and the rule set so completely bananas that I don't feel like they will bounce back . They have annihilated the competitive scene , so it's clear they just want to be a model company that's fine if they had affordable models but they don't even have that .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
I love 40k so I don't want GW to fail, just change.
what I do want to see 'die' is the constant bitching from people. the models are personal taste. if you don't like them dont use them. as for the rules, im not totally down with the rules side, but if you don't quite like the a certain rule alter it to suit you. we're all free thinking adults, so childish "its not exactly how I want it, so I hate it" is stupid

not trying to start a flame war, just expressing my opinion

Yeah but I don't want to spend $100+ on a rule book and dex and then have to design my own game .....c'mon man that's a crazy way to approach a business .

If I want to be a game designer then I would design my own game !

I want to see them fail in a loud and spectacular fashion and I want to hear the lamentations of their wome.....er, fanboy white knights!

I LOVE GW AND THEIR MODELS/GAME!!!

Considering how many other games are being made by FFGs atm under the warhammer/40k umbrella I would find it hard to see any outcome of GW caving in which FFGs didn't spend whatever they needed to to pick up the IP.

Do I want FFG to run 40k? feth yes! Do you have any idea how much better balanced the codexes would be?

Ok, first I apologise for sounding ignorant/white knight or whatever. I'm also sorry if I offended anyone.
GW should take responsibility for their problems and also should try to understand what customers want, unfortunately they won't because 'we don't do market research'. Gw is trying though. I don't think we'd have got Mechanicus and Skitarii otherwise
If management changed and they joined the modern era and did some market research then perhaps things would get better (and hopefully chaos would get a decent codex compared to SM)

Simple answer: i don't really care anymore, GW are good for the paints and thats it.

Given the rise of other games at my club, mostly Warmahordes and a few others. Most of us now have either go rid of all our GW stuff or are in the process of doing so. (i'm considering dumping my Tau and leaving the IG/AM as the "strategic reserve".)

Frankly apart from the price gripes, its the rules. Utterly inconsistent, full of WTF moments and other crap that is now a bore to play.

Its where WM/H and PP get it right to be blunt: good gameplay that is consistent and well rounded with plenty of variety that results in fun games all round, even in a tournament setting. Within the caveat that it requires a steep learning curve to kick out the GW mentality.

If GW failed and no one picked up their IP, the game would stop being updated in every direction at once. It would all settle down and then people would start making fixed rules to balance it, and sooner or later one would prove better than the rest, become famous and become the "accepted standard."

So basically, if GW failed, we'd lose getting new models and would gain a much better ruleset.

I'd be ok with that.

I'd personally be very happy if GW died and none of it's rules designers found work in the industry ever again and the IP got picked up by more competent people. The thought of Jervis Johnson having to work a cubicle job at a faceless insurance company for the rest of his days pleases me mightily.

 Kain wrote:
I'd personally be very happy if GW died and none of it's rules designers found work in the industry ever again and the IP got picked up by more competent people. The thought of Jervis Johnson having to work a cubicle job at a faceless insurance company for the rest of his days pleases me mightily.

Thry have good designers; let's be fair here. Plenty have moved on to bigger and better things. Thryre not the movers and shakers within the company. Sure, thry get their faces in white dwarf, but it's nothing more than pr. They have no power to direct the game; they're beholden to others.mThe problem is the company culture that creates a lack of creative freedom and multiple, conflicting and ever changing design goals for the writers. Often from corporate suits with little interest or understanding of gaming- it's about selling models, and manipulating the face to continue going that. Ultimately, the design studio is a name only, they're minions, given directives and timelines, not creative freedom to do what needs done. Gw is a hire and fire company, and plenty there simply doesn't have the job security or the clout to push for what needs done.

Deadnight wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I'd personally be very happy if GW died and none of it's rules designers found work in the industry ever again and the IP got picked up by more competent people. The thought of Jervis Johnson having to work a cubicle job at a faceless insurance company for the rest of his days pleases me mightily.

Thry have good designers; let's be fair here. Plenty have moved on to bigger and better things. Thryre not the movers and shakers within the company. Sure, thry get their faces in white dwarf, but it's nothing more than pr. They have no power to direct the game; they're beholden to others.mThe problem is the company culture that creates a lack of creative freedom and multiple, conflicting and ever changing design goals for the writers. Often from corporate suits with little interest or understanding of gaming- it's about selling models, and manipulating the face to continue going that. Ultimately, the design studio is a name only, they're minions, given directives and timelines, not creative freedom to do what needs done. Gw is a hire and fire company, and plenty there simply doesn't have the job security or the clout to push for what needs done.

Some blame has to lie with the writers. There's crap in the 7th rulebook that is still fethed up from the 6th rulebook and would have taken all of 30 seconds to fix but they didn't. And the lack of realistic playtesting, some of that has to lie on the game writer's shoulders unless they despise their own game to the point they don't even play it in their free time and/or against anyone outside the studio and/or read online comments.

Yes it's bad that you have to fix 100$ rulebook, that's why I stopped buying their rules. What about the models though, GW fails and that might be it.

Lance845 wrote:
Considering how many other games are being made by FFGs atm under the warhammer/40k umbrella I would find it hard to see any outcome of GW caving in which FFGs didn't spend whatever they needed to to pick up the IP.

Do I want FFG to run 40k? feth yes! Do you have any idea how much better balanced the codexes would be?

What makes you think so? Chaos in the Old World boardgame is unbalanced and that's few factions, basicaly every game of theirs I played that had asymetrical faction had balance problems. Dust Tactics had 2 factions and was just as unbalanced and terrain dependent as 40k. Also FFGs 40k art is atrocious imo, at least what is in Dark Heresy. I find that book getting me out of 40k mood instead of getting me more in.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Yes it's bad that you have to fix 100$ rulebook, that's why I stopped buying their rules. What about the models though, GW fails and that might be it.

Lance845 wrote:
Considering how many other games are being made by FFGs atm under the warhammer/40k umbrella I would find it hard to see any outcome of GW caving in which FFGs didn't spend whatever they needed to to pick up the IP.

Do I want FFG to run 40k? feth yes! Do you have any idea how much better balanced the codexes would be?

What makes you think so? Chaos in the Old World boardgame is unbalanced and that's few factions, basicaly every game of theirs I played that had asymetrical faction had balance problems. Dust Tactics had 2 factions and was just as unbalanced and terrain dependent as 40k. Also FFGs 40k art is atrocious imo, at least what is in Dark Heresy. I find that book getting me out of 40k mood instead of getting me more in.

TBF, I think FFG is/was just a distributor for Dust.

The copyrightable portions of Dust Tactics are © 2010 - 2013 Dust Studio, Ltd. Dust and Dust Tactics are trademarks of Dust Studio, Ltd. All rights reserved.

And the fluff writing for the 40k stuff appears to actually been written by a rational human with an above 3rd grade intelligence vs the trash that comes out of BL.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Yes it's bad that you have to fix 100$ rulebook, that's why I stopped buying their rules. What about the models though, GW fails and that might be it.

Lance845 wrote:
Considering how many other games are being made by FFGs atm under the warhammer/40k umbrella I would find it hard to see any outcome of GW caving in which FFGs didn't spend whatever they needed to to pick up the IP.

Do I want FFG to run 40k? feth yes! Do you have any idea how much better balanced the codexes would be?

What makes you think so? Chaos in the Old World boardgame is unbalanced and that's few factions, basicaly every game of theirs I played that had asymetrical faction had balance problems. Dust Tactics had 2 factions and was just as unbalanced and terrain dependent as 40k. Also FFGs 40k art is atrocious imo, at least what is in Dark Heresy. I find that book getting me out of 40k mood instead of getting me more in.

Because while FFG does hit some problems with their initial release of very complicated games. They tend to fix almost if not all those problems with a second edition. And they incorporate lessons learned into their other products. Less and less problems these years and more and more entertainment.

@Lance ok fair enough. Still I'd want GW to outsorce rules only with models art and fluff still in their hands.

@agnosto Didnt know that I have yet to read the instruction despite having dozens of games under my belt, I trust my friends heh. Dont have the box only models. Still their boardgames are not balanced and you'd think a closed environment is easier to balance even if you take more complicated rules into account.

Also I don't really want rational, intelligent, depth etc anywhere near 40k. It's supposed to be absurd billion on billion battles running down the impossible hills shooting suns at each other, an ott background for a tt wargame not a Dune competitor in space fantasy field. I cringe at the sense and realism brigade take on 40k tbh, sure I want it better written and tad less absurd than Ward but a tad only.

It's impossible to look past the far future where humanity's tanks only hit half the time. Our tanks in 2015 hit over 95% of the time today, even for tier 2 tanks. It's called a computer. Get some or lose the war.

So yeah, I think their fluff is really stupid.

Martel732 wrote:
It's impossible to look past the far future where humanity's tanks only hit half the time. Our tanks in 2015 hit over 95% of the time today, even for tier 2 tanks. It's called a computer. Get some or lose the war.

So yeah, I think their fluff is really stupid.

40k's fluff is whatever you want it to be because 40k has no canon at all.

Fanfiction is as valid as a codex.

Why? GW can't be bothered to set canon in stone, that's too much work.

Also as an Ex-Tanker in the Russian Army and someone who's tried Modern Wargames, I'd say that Modern Warfare Wargames don't really represent the accuracy of modern tanks very well either (while similarly infantry are way too accurate.)

Martel732 wrote:
It's impossible to look past the far future where humanity's tanks only hit half the time. Our tanks in 2015 hit over 95% of the time today, even for tier 2 tanks. It's called a computer. Get some or lose the war.

So yeah, I think their fluff is really stupid.

That's rules and not really a way to judge the fluff, rules are abstracted. Also Imperium is more of modernised and wierder WWI and WWII in space, personaly I think SM predators should shoot everything at full BS and generaly be a bit more hi tech because special forces and power armour but it doesnt bother me really because 40k is absurd. Applying logic is a road to disapointment.

Many games abstract the rules resolution to arrive at intuitive results that are easy to arrive at.
( They simplify the factors in the resolution to make it easy to understand and quick to resolve.)

40k rules abstract the resolution , and the results! So there is no constant logical progression or frame work of understanding for the players to use.

In the military, wargames done there have engagements resolved by experienced or very learned commanders determining who should logically win rather than by dice. It's generally been this way since Prussia started up kriegspiel in the 1800s.

So by military standards, pretty much anything that uses dice to derive results is going to be wonky as a wargame. :U

 Kain wrote:
In the military, wargames done there have engagements resolved by experienced or very learned commanders determining who should logically win rather than by dice. It's generally been this way since Prussia started up kriegspiel in the 1800s.

So by military standards, pretty much anything that uses dice to derive results is going to be wonky as a wargame. :U

Having been in the army for ten years I can safely say that the military doesn't have a firm grasp on the concept of 'fun.'
We want a fun game, not a simulation used by soulless officers.