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My question is a simple one. In all honesty, do you want GW to fail? By failure we mean go out of business, shutter their doors forever and never return.

What spurs this question is the general mood of the board that I feel whenever there is news concerning GW, its releases and financial related news. The latest threads about Eldar and the anger and frustration expressed by many is a fine example. Folks come in and express their frustration and outright anger about the release and inevitably the discussion turns to reminding people GW is losing sales and is on a bad road if it wants to remain a viable company. There will usually be a contingent to say "good riddance" and the white knights ride in to tilt at windmills. I am also curious to see the vitriol and what I would describe as almost glee from some people when there is a thread about the latest GW financials that is negative. There is a perception created, on my part perhaps, that there are people who would do a dance of joy if GW were to fold up and go away.

My own perspective is a relatively simple one. I am a hobbyist first and foremost. I love to paint, build cool looking models, do some conversions, etc. I play a game once in a very blue moon and it is a friendly game. I am not a competitive player, have never attended a tournament and at this stage am unlikely to change. I appreciate the competitive scene and the tournaments because i think in general they inject a lot of passion and appreciation for the game into the hobby. Its because of the competitive players i have learned how to tell if a unit is actually good or how to make a list. I enjoy listening to those podcasts as it expands my knowledge and appreciation of the game beyond just the hobby. Despite the issues the game is having I have to wonder if there are people who really want to see this company go away? I agree with the general sentiments that the rules are sucky and the prices are too damned high, but I can live with it as long as every once in a while I get a gorgeous model or a cool codex. However, if the company were to go away we would lose that.

I've heard the arguments that if GW goes away someone will pick up the IP. Personally think it would likely not be the same and frankly better the devil you know. But that's not what my question is about. It's about trying to understand some of the negative mood about GW that pervades those threads. Are some people rooting for the company to fail and if so can you let us know why that would be? What purpose or end for the hobby in general would be positively served by losing GW?

I want them to fail, and the sooner the better. The IP is too valuable to be abandoned completely, and there's really nowhere to go but up from here.


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Stravo wrote:
What purpose or end for the hobby in general would be positively served by losing GW?

The desired end is GW's IP improving once it is free of GW's poor management. Virtually all of the problems right now are the direct result of GW being hilariously incompetent. The IP itself is still strong, and in the right hands could be a much better game. Since GW and its shareholders show no interest in firing the people responsible for this poor management the only remaining hope is that GW dies and their current management has the IP taken away from them by force.

No. I just want them to crank out nice models, which they're doing.

No matter what they do with the game, my friends and I will continue to have fun playing 40k; there's literally nothing they can do to wreck the gaming component for us, because at worst, if they came out with 8e that said, "Flip a coin, and the person who calls it wins", we'd just ignore it and do our own thing. Having played 40k and many dozens of RPGs and board games since the 80's we've just gotten used to essentially changing anything we don't like to something we like better, by consensus.

The one thing GW does uniquely is churn out Scifi armies in a aesthetic that I like, and at a rate exceeding my paintbrush and modelling ability, and while the model's aren't exactly cheap, they're within my budget. That's all it really takes to make me happy

I unfortunately don't have time right now for a long answer, but the short answer is: I want the current management gone. Removed entirely. They have been a blight on GW for many years and have hampered the company and its IPs significantly in the pursuit of short-term profit. GW could be so much more than it is. So it's not so much the company as it is the people managing it.

Personally, I would love for them to have to file for bankruptcy and have to take a moment to see how they have failed their loyal following. At the end of the day the reason GW exists is because its fanbase is willing to pay absurd amounts of money for a book that sometimes feels like a 7 year old made the rules up for, and for bits of plastic that are beautifully crafted to look like something.

GW needs to listen to its fans more and stop trying to force models down our throats. Every year they do this they lose people from the game. I personally know two players who have completely quit the hobby this year because of the rules changing and new codex's forcing them to buy new models or not be competitive. Im waiting to see the results of the new Eldar Love fest codex and see if another buddy who has been on the fence quits now.

I started this hobby with 2 armies, Space marines and Orks, I had to sell my Space marines to focus on my ork army because of how expensive hte models were. If the prices were 30% cheaper I would be fielding 2 armies and they would have made more money off of me. Instead they jack up the prices even higher and expect people to play several different armies. Good luck to them if that is the model they will continue to use.


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SIDE NOTE: 90% of my army is EBAY and this website, 10% was actually GW purchased. I refuse to support them now.

I want GW to improve and make games and minis that I can enjoy again instead of pumping out more and more poorly designed crap, god awful rules and charging a premium for them.

Sadly I don't think that will happen. Assuming it doesn't then yes, I do want them gone. I think it would help my local gaming scene grow if the local GW store and the local GW gamiNg club where to disappear as they offer nothing to the wider community and seem to very intentionally isolate themselves from other games on the market. Having these people start looking at the other products on the market would, I think, be a real boost to the FLGSs doing good work and growing the community while the loss of the GW store wouldn't hurt it at all as it is only there to milk money from kids and turn them off the hobby as a whole when they grow up.


I feel the same holds true for my country as whole and possibly the entier wargameing world. We can already see people and clubs working their way off of a GW dependence until local stores are able to operate without GWs presence. I consider this a very good thing as long as GW continues to sink, and given they have a habit of drilling holes in their own hull I can't see them turning it around.

Does GW need to actually die?

No, but, simply put, the management needs to go.

Probably most of the rules design team, as well. Depending on how much of the bad rules and bad writing is caused by management's interference/directives vs. the actual skills and abilities of the designers themselves.

I don't want GW to fail to the point where a "For Sale" goes up in front of GWHQ, but I do want them to reach the point where the investment groups actually take notice and dump the stock. That's when the board will (hopefully) realize that their not doing the right things. Whether that will be before or after their financials go into the red, I don't know. They're certainly on their way there. Despite the flurry of new releases this year, it may not change much in their total sales. Sales still dropped last year, and that was after a new 40K edition, new Space Marines codex, the new Imperial Knights, etc. GW hasn't quite figured out that the key to their future success is to make their current product worth buying, not throwing as much new product out as they can hoping some of it will succeed.

@Ghazkuul -- in my opinion, the only way they could generate the kinds of numbers that they would like is not on the back of miniatures and games, but by doing something that is leverages IP instead of manufacturing. A hit computer game, or a hit movie, for instance would do the trick.

The world being where it's at, with shrinking apartments and home sizes, widening gaps between the working and wealthy, and generally lower median disposable income and free time make it such that this extremely time-consuming hobby is not going to ever catch up to the next GTA or the next Avengers movie.

If GW listened to its fans, it would be well-loved, but I don't believe the fundamentals would change, and without selling stuff to its player base, it's not going to make money. Perhaps profits would be a little better, but I don't think seismically so, because even at half the current prices and even GREAT rules, it's still not the ideal hobby for a lot of people, and would still be out of reach in terms of price (and time commitment) for many.

I wish they would either get up to par with their business practices, as well as competence in general, or die like they deserve to, and free up the IP for someone more competent.

 Talys wrote:
@Ghazkuul -- in my opinion, the only way they could generate the kinds of numbers that they would like is not on the back of miniatures and games, but by doing something that is leverages IP instead of manufacturing. A hit computer game, or a hit movie, for instance would do the trick.

You mean like making a game called Total War: Warhammer? And then blowing up the Warhammer setting and rebooting it into something completely different before that video game even comes out? Or making Dawn of War and then doing absolutely nothing to support it within the 40K tabletop game to capitalize on the new interest generated?

Sadly, that's the reality of GW.

Yes, but only because I feel it would be for the long term good of the IP, game and customers. No matter who picked it up, they could probably do a better job than their current upper management has done. This IP is worth $200 million per year, probably more if it was done right. The current management seems to believe that cutting costs to the bone, releasing new things at the fire rate of an M2 machine gun and raising prices until even the long time customers are burnt out. Ditch the retail chains and leave it to the FLGS to sell your product for you. Use half the money you save to pay quality "press gangers" to go around to different FLGS' running leagues, tournaments, painting and conversion competitions, and generally getting people excited about the hobby. Do market research to find out why some new releases sell like hot cakes and others linger on the shelves collecting dust. Play test rules to make it fair and balanced so that people who don't want to get roflstomped have more than 5-6 armies to choose from. Wait 4-5 years to replace BRB and codexes so people don't drop $150-200 on a limited edition book only to have it invalidated 2 years later. Reopen forums and Facebook pages to give your fans an official place to discuss the hobby. These are all things that a company taking over the IP would do as they all involve little cost and risk for a potentially significant boost in customer satisfaction and therefore revenue.

No, but this management needs to either disappear or change it's tactics for reasons stated.

I know dozens of people who played DoW and never even knew that a table top game for it existed. Furthermore, I know of even more people who played the fantasy MMORPG and likewise didn't know it was a board game first.

The reason GW is failing is they have doubled the price of their models in less then 20 years. Inflation is always there but 100% inflation in 20 years just isn't right. Yes the models have gotten nicer looking and yeah they added a few new bitz to every box but that is not worth 100% increase in price. When I started playing in the late 90s you could buy a tactical squad for less then 20 and a tank for around 30. now its closer to 35 for a tactical squad and 60+ for a vehicle.

They bill themselves as a "Model Manufacturing Company" but they are called Games Workshop. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people come into my local GW store looking to buy video games.

Yes... the management needs to go...

I want them to fail so that they realize they need to actual work on balancing their game

Median Trace wrote:
They bill themselves as a "Model Manufacturing Company" but they are called Games Workshop. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people come into my local GW store looking to buy video games.

This. I work 3rd shift and I have a GW <1 mile from home so I spend a lot of time there. At least 5 people a day come in asking if we sell video games. The ones who have played any of the video games don't even know the TTG exists. How is a $200M/yr company that bad at cross promotion?

GWs management needs to be fired, and if anything fined for what they've done so far with the codex creep. They need a competent group of players, to actively test and attempt to BREAK the game so they can actively try to fix things appropriately

I agree with Peregrine. The game needs to figure out what it wants to be. It tries to be a beer and pretzels game but sells messy overcomplicated rules. It tries to be a narrative driven game but fails to portray a plausible narrative (flyers being incredibly slow and low altitude, warlords forgetting their specialisations between battles, the game's complete failure at matching its own background). It tries to be a game that's all about the hobby, the collecting, modeling and painting, yet sells expensive rules with more expensive extra rules slapped on top. It tries to be a small detailed game with duels and lots of special wargear and items, yet continues to push for larger games, which results in a slowed-down mess.

The heroic scale oddities and inter-model scale failures is also killing my interest in the entire MEQ model range.

Pull the plug, sell the corpse, and let someone else resuscitate it in a manner of their choosing.

I either want:

GW to close down and someone to buy the IP, anyone else would do a better job, its a well known company, and a well known product, someone would definitely pick it up.

OR

I want them to clear out managers and idiots and reorder the company. They COULD fix themselves, we just need one smart guy with some power.

January 1st GW elected a new CEO Kevin Rountree. So theirs your new CEO, whether or not he fires the upper management is doubtful as the CEO he replaced was shuffled into a non executive chairman role instead of being fired.

I want GW to fail to a point where they realise their wrongs at long last. Then, like a majestic phoenix, for a new form of GW to rise from those ashes, something lovable and respectable and ultimately richer for it.

It probably won't happen, but that's what I want.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I know dozens of people who played DoW and never even knew that a table top game for it existed. Furthermore, I know of even more people who played the fantasy MMORPG and likewise didn't know it was a board game first.

The reason GW is failing is they have doubled the price of their models in less then 20 years. Inflation is always there but 100% inflation in 20 years just isn't right. Yes the models have gotten nicer looking and yeah they added a few new bitz to every box but that is not worth 100% increase in price. When I started playing in the late 90s you could buy a tactical squad for less then 20 and a tank for around 30. now its closer to 35 for a tactical squad and 60+ for a vehicle.

Actually, it's interesting that you bring up inflation. GW products have outpaced inflation, but just barely. To give you an idea,

http://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/related/inflation-calculator/

The rate of inflation since 1980 averages 3.15% per annum and a $100 product would cost $296 today.
The rate of inflation since 1985 averages 2.39% per annum and a $100 product would cost $203 today.
The rate of inflation since 1990 averages 1.97% per annum and a $100 product would cost $163 today.

So a $20 product in 1990 would be $33 today; a $30 product would be $49 today. a $30 kit bought in 2000 would be $40 today, accounting for only nflation.

I'm sure that GW outperforms inflation, but so have most other luxury and entertainment goods (golf clubs, movie tickets, video games, comic books, for example). It isn't as egregious as some might think.

A lot of people actually don't realize how much inflation is; also, a lot of people's salaries haven't kept up with inflation. It's actually one of the reasons for a widening wealth gap.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
January 1st GW elected a new CEO Kevin Rountree. So theirs your new CEO, whether or not he fires the upper management is doubtful as the CEO he replaced was shuffled into a non executive chairman role instead of being fired.

The new CEO was already high up within the company and a right hand man of sorts to Kirby. I doubt you will see very much change with the new CEO.

I believe that very few people actually want GW to fail. Most people want them to change. If that means that they have to declare bankruptcy then so be it.

When you read half of the threads here, you will see that there is a large numbers of members who is actively working towards making GW fail because the rules arent tailored to suit their personal preferences.

That is their agenda. personally, i only see poor mnagement and decision making. I dont want them to fail but i would love to see any of the "suits" and "decision makers" moved out and replaced with ones ho have a little more business and gaming sense.

 EVIL INC wrote:
When you read half of the threads here, you will see that there is a large numbers of members who is actively working towards making GW fail because the rules arent tailored to suit their personal preferences.

That is their agenda. personally, i only see poor mnagement and decision making. I dont want them to fail but i would love to see any of the "suits" and "decision makers" moved out and replaced with ones ho have a little more business and gaming sense.

I disagree, I think it is because they have been burned by GW's blunders to many times. They don't believe there is any way GW can succeed now and they just keep dragging the game they love further and further down the toilet. As pointed out, nothing has changed. GW has let go anyone that thinks differently. Their CEO made a moronic statement about not needing to do market research and poor sales is totally fine. And then they hired someone within their company who rumor has it is just a yes man to the former CEO. They have no faith at all in GW as a company and really if you were a betting person you should agree with them on that point.

The only reason I don't want GW to go under is because I think them going down would take the IP and game with them.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I believe that very few people actually want GW to fail. Most people want them to change. If that means that they have to declare bankruptcy then so be it.

Pretty much.

40k and GW could be so much more, so much better, just not the way they are currently running things.

Very true. it is still a very good "mythos" and still a decent game. With proper leadership, it could once more be great.
I disagree with many though in that I would rather many of the "leaders" fail and be replaced with proper ones who will work to make it all great than have the entire company fail and thus destroy it all.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I believe that very few people actually want GW to fail. Most people want them to change. If that means that they have to declare bankruptcy then so be it.

My thoughts exactly. I want a full change of the management and rules design team, and I just don't see this happening without current GW going down first.