Hi folks,

Just wondering... 5 D-Scythe Wraiths in a Wave Serpent isn't terribly expensive. Certainly less than your typical Deathstar, and I was wondering what units would survive being hit by 5x D-Scythes? Assuming all models from the targeted unit are within range. Obviously 50 Conscripts would have some survivors as I doubt they'd all be within range... but I don't think it would be terribly hard to get a typical 10-man unit within range of at least one Template, if you dropped out of a Wave Serpent.

I'm thinking that a Serpent, 1st turn, can often move / flat out to be right beside a target. Using Jink + Shield, they could reasonably survive a round of shooting, and then move 6", deploy 6", and then D-Scythes could smother a target in Templates. While there are some units that could simply move to avoid... like Eldar Jetbikes... many units would not be so fortunate. Anything slower than a "fast" vehicle, or a Bike / Jetbike unit couldn't avoid that range, and even then those units would need to flat out, preventing shooting or assault, to get away.

While I'm not sure of the points, such a versatile "kill anything" unit seems like a total no-brainer... so I'm wondering what kinds of units could reasonably survive about 20 hits on large unit, on the D-Scythes' modified Destroyer Table? AP to penetrate Terminator Armour, with Ignores cover, wounding automatically for d3 Wounds / HP on a 3+ per hit? 5 Hits on a single model, such as a Daemon Prince. I suppose that if you only rolled 2x 3+, you'd only average 4 wounds, so after Invuls you'd probably survive, although on average you'd inflict 6 wounds, and then after [Tzeentch] invuls... you'd still be alive. With 1 wound. On average.

Not a whine thread, just a curiosity thread.

Failing that, any reasonable strategies for dealing with them? Someone had mentioned you could use a "throw away" unit to eat overwatch before assaulting with a second unit... but if you're facing two of these you're probably losing one unit to deployment shooting, another to eating overwatch, and then possibly a 3rd to tying them up / killing them in CC. I mean, it's not like they're just going to fall down in CC unless you've got a dedicated Assault unit to plow into them. High Toughness and MEQ save, you know.

So I guess I'll start with suggesting that a 4 [Or more] Wound MC, with a 4+ Invul would typically survive 5x D-Scythes, with one wound left.

Examples off the top of my head include Tzeentchian Daemon Princes and Riptides, as RT have enough wounds to survive a single round of fire.

Any unit in the game with invisibility.

Any unit that stretches beyond the 8 inch range of the scythes.

Other than that, as you pointed out in your post, anyone that spreads their models properly. You will probably only hit 4-5 per scythe. With something like wraiths probably only 2.

So 5 wraithguard will get maybe 10 wraith hits. 3-4 of those do nothing. Then only about 2 will fail, killing on average 2 wraiths.

Right on. I always forget Invisibility.

So Be'Lakor, or any unit with 2x 2 Rolls on Telepathy has a 56% chance to get Invis, or a 50% chance with someone taking 3 rolls on Telepathy can, assuming a successful manifestation, become immune.

I would imagine that an elder force focussing on 15 - 20 Scatterbikes, plus a couple of D-Scythe units in Serps wouldn't have much left over for Psychic stuff at 1500 points, so the manifestation would probably occur if you could throw 6 or so dice at the attempt... not hard with that many psychic levels.

Good stuff!

[My local group has house ruled Invis to be less amazing, but in the outside world that's a working option.]

EDIT: Also looks like 3+ Invuls on well spread models can help. Assault Termies spread to only take a total of 10 hits would hopefully only lose a couple of guys as well. They would be ill-advised to then do a follow up assault [as would Necro-Wraiths] since they'd hypothetically then lose 2 more dudes... but they'd survive the initial blast, so that's something.

A D-Scythe might as well be a heavy flamer for anything T3 4+ with 1 wound.

Actually it's worse since the heavy flamer wiil wound on 2s and the DScythe on 3s.

So better said, it is a flamer for anything T3 5+ with 1 wound.

Agreed that a D-Scythe is no better than a Flamer vs Guardsmen... but 10 Guardsmen aren't going to survive being hit by 5 flamers either, so that has little to do with the price of eggs. I can assure you that 10 Guardsmen aren't going to survive being hit by 5 flamers.

Orikanstar would remain mostly unscathed from D-scythes.

Would you mind explaining? I'm not sure what Orikanstar is.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Would you mind explaining? I'm not sure what Orikanstar is.

5+ Lychguard with Dispersion shields (a 3++ save), and a named character Orikan the Diviner, which lets them reroll saving throws of 1. They wouldn't get their reanimate from the D-scythes, but they'll have a 3++ rerolling 1s, so would mostly remain intact.

Also, 150 points worth of wyches will tie up that 210 points worth of d-scythe wraithguard for an entire game.

Unit of 5 wyches charges to soak wall of death overwatch. Dies horribly.
Unit of 10 wyches charges and ties them down for the rest of the game.
Profit.

This works with any other cheap model with at least a 4+ save in CC too. 150 points of Kabalite warriors could do the same thing. 150 points of SM Scouts, Imperial Guardsmen, Tyranid Hormagaunts, etc. Basically, less points worth of pretty much every cheap troops choice in the game can nullify them while using less points than they cost. The hormagaunts don't have 4+ saves, but they make up for it by costing 5 points each and being fearless.

Gotcha. So it looks like High-Wound MC's with decent Invuls are able to survive a round, as are small, well spread units of 3++ units, based on only being tagged with 10 hits.

After that, we have units that are simply so large as to not be within range of a template. And those grunts aren't likely to have much impact on those WG.

Then there's Invisibility... which is itself a hugely broken power. Not guaranteed if you're rolling on the table.

Fast units that can avoid the WG in their Serpent.

While having many units around to soak overwatch / prevent assault are possible... the Wyches need a unit to get mushed by D Scythes, a unit to soak overwatch, and a unit to assault with. So three units going into the WG to tie them up. Further... they aren't surviving 5 hits from D-Scythes, which is my focus here. It is a method to deal with ONE unit of WG, but not the focus of what I'm asking.

Other suggestions on what could survive?

It really depends on how many hits per model the unit is taking too. If they're spread enough that each model is taking 1-2 hits it's different than a unit that is clumped and getting all 5 templates on itself.

That said, if the enemy moves a WS next to a 10 man unit which has krak grenades. The correct course of action is probably to pop the wave serpent in an assault, lose the unit but effectively deny the D-Scythes their mobility from that point on.

I believe grotesques or a Corpsethief claw could maybe do it?

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Also, 150 points worth of wyches will tie up that 210 points worth of d-scythe wraithguard for an entire game.

Unit of 5 wyches charges to soak wall of death overwatch. Dies horribly.
Unit of 10 wyches charges and ties them down for the rest of the game.
Profit.

This works with any other cheap model with at least a 4+ save in CC too. 150 points of Kabalite warriors could do the same thing. 150 points of SM Scouts, Imperial Guardsmen, Tyranid Hormagaunts, etc. Basically, less points worth of pretty much every cheap troops choice in the game can nullify them while using less points than they cost. The hormagaunts don't have 4+ saves, but they make up for it by costing 5 points each and being fearless.

-Flat out next to unit desired.
-Move serpent 6" then deploy 6" (next turn after opponent has moved any units to try counter).
-With formation you can move a further d6" before shooting
Even without the last point, no 5 man unit without MASSIVE bases is going to prevent the wave serpent and wraiths simply moving over them or around them to get at the unit they want. And even if they could, that would mean you would have to buy tons of 5 man units as the wraiths could simply pick any of your units. And outside of a vacume, such a unit will very likely die to 3 scatter bikes anyway to pave the way for the wraiths.

Any unit that assaults a Serpent will probably be rather clustered, without a Consolidation move afterwards. Perfect target for D-Scythes. So again, a way to deal, but not a way to survive.

Could you explain Grots / Corpsethief Claw to me? I don't know what they are.

My overall goal is looking at ways to counter 20 or so Scatter Bikes, with a Couple of WG Scythes in Serpents at 1500 pts. I think that's within reason, being without a codex to check points. Since Scatter Lasers can deal with most targets, and I think D-Scythes can deal with most anything else, I'm wondering what could hypothetically survive even one round of D-Scythes to then try to deal with something else.

I dunno, just spitballing some ideas.

T5 and T7 models, respectively, in groups of 3-10 or 5, respectively. FNP on both. If there's a Cronos in range it's a 4+ FNP. A dark artisan formation probably not, but possibly. (T7, 3 models, 9 wounds, FNP 4+ with the possibility of rerolling FNP rolls of 1.)

Toughness doesn't factor much, due to the D table. However, if they can get 10 hits total, those should inflict 6 damage results, with an average of 2 wounds each. Cutting that roughly in half with a 4+ FNP keeps one of those guys alive, so that's a good answer.

Solid.

Literally anything with a 15 point Solar Staff.

A Flyer is a true counter. Not even a Template that goes through it to hit another unit can land wounds on it.

I dont know where you guys are getting this "only 10 hits" from. Even with 40mm bases you should get at LEAST 3 each. Even if it were possible to position like that, they could just target something more clumped, hop back in the serpent, and do it again in 2 turns. Also, Corpsethief and Grots get rekt thanks to no invul, no FNP and taking d3 wounds each.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Also, Corpsethief and Grots get rekt thanks to no invul, no FNP and taking d3 wounds each.

Grots can have an Invulnerable save if there is a KFF nearby and D3 wounds each does nothing because they don't spill over.

Although Grots will probably run away unless backed by a Stompa or some other method of making them Fearless.

Any Superheavy with nine or more Hull Points and/or an Invulnerable save. A big Necron Warrior unit with the Decurion benefit is still getting 4+ saves, not sure if that'd be enough to save them. Depends on how spread out they are.

Could you please explain the Solar Staff?

Flyers indeed are a counter. I was wondering about things that could be "hit" by Templates.

The 10 hits are a concession to actively spreading models, as I'm not familiar with some of the sizes. 3 hits per template might be more accurate in reality, but I've never used many of these units so I can't judge the practicality of doing so. Response to D-Scythes might create a meta-shift to actively spread such units when facing them, potentially limiting their effectiveness.

I think also that a lot of people are missing the fact (maybe not on this thread - just in general) that such a unit effectively makes a 18-20", 'you can't stand there' bubble, due to serp move + disembark. I know the original question was 'what could survive it', but it misses pointing out that a serp, filled with d scythe wraiths is simply preventing ANY non-flyer unit in the game moving within that bubble or it will either die, or suffer such horrendous casualties that it may as well be dead. And taking down the serp is not an easy task in itself. That kind of area denial is pretty much unheard of in the game for anything remotely near those points.
2 such units will give total bully board control (I mean that as a bully unit before any posters decide to make a post with the word 'tears' in it), and mean the opposing player is always on the back foot reacting to the eldar player rather than being able to take the initiative. This problem of always reacting is exacerbated by other units in the dex.

Funny enough any of the C'tan shards can survive it.

Oberron wrote:
Funny enough any of the C'tan shards can survive it.

Umm, how? 5 hits, lets say 3 wound, he makes 1 save (usually my luck with 4++ saves) and fails 2, takes 2d3 wounds. On average from that, he's dead.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I think also that a lot of people are missing the fact (maybe not on this thread - just in general) that such a unit effectively makes a 18-20", 'you can't stand there' bubble, due to serp move + disembark. I know the original question was 'what could survive it', but it misses pointing out that a serp, filled with d scythe wraiths is simply preventing ANY non-flyer unit in the game moving within that bubble or it will either die, or suffer such horrendous casualties that it may as well be dead. And taking down the serp is not an easy task in itself. That kind of area denial is pretty much unheard of in the game for anything remotely near those points.
2 such units will give total bully board control (I mean that as a bully unit before any posters decide to make a post with the word 'tears' in it), and mean the opposing player is always on the back foot reacting to the eldar player rather than being able to take the initiative. This problem of always reacting is exacerbated by other units in the dex.

The Wave Serpent is sitting on a 4+ Jink or a 5+ Inv now, no more 3+ Jink, and it remains AV 12 front. The problem with Serpents before was the target saturation because the Wave Serpents themselves were a threat, now the passengers in these two or three specific Wave Serpents are a threat and those particular Wave Serpents are going to get focused down quickly.

I expect WWP to be much more of an issue with D-scythe Wraithguard since they get their shot off before you have a chance to whittle them down at all or pop their transport and you can't avoid them except by completely bubble-wrapping anything big.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Could you please explain the Solar Staff?

It's a 15 point relic that Necrons have. Once per game, until the start of your next turn, the bearer and his unit can essentially become pseudo invisible. "Any enemy unit that shoots at the bearer and his unit are treated as making Snap Shots"

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I think also that a lot of people are missing the fact (maybe not on this thread - just in general) that such a unit effectively makes a 18-20", 'you can't stand there' bubble, due to serp move + disembark. I know the original question was 'what could survive it', but it misses pointing out that a serp, filled with d scythe wraiths is simply preventing ANY non-flyer unit in the game moving within that bubble or it will either die, or suffer such horrendous casualties that it may as well be dead. And taking down the serp is not an easy task in itself. That kind of area denial is pretty much unheard of in the game for anything remotely near those points.
2 such units will give total bully board control (I mean that as a bully unit before any posters decide to make a post with the word 'tears' in it), and mean the opposing player is always on the back foot reacting to the eldar player rather than being able to take the initiative. This problem of always reacting is exacerbated by other units in the dex.

The Wave Serpent is sitting on a 4+ Jink or a 5+ Inv now, no more 3+ Jink, and it remains AV 12 front. The problem with Serpents before was the target saturation because the Wave Serpents themselves were a threat, now the passengers in these two or three specific Wave Serpents are a threat and those particular Wave Serpents are going to get focused down quickly.

I expect WWP to be much more of an issue with D-scythe Wraithguard since they get their shot off before you have a chance to whittle them down at all or pop their transport and you can't avoid them except by completely bubble-wrapping anything big.

Very true. However, the target saturation is still there, just in the form of wraithknights and jetbikes sitting at over 24" away and thus requiring your heavy weaponary.

Yeah. Any super heavy is taking on average 5x4/3 = about 7HP. That's survivable for most.

Toss on a dude with a PFG near it to give it a 4++ and it's only 3.5. (For the record the guy can be hidden from it and hidden among enough models that they can't scythe him down.

Area denial point is well made.

Again, I'm trying to tackle this problem in parts. The notion of D-Scythes seemed rather overwhelming at first. It's nice to see that some "groups" of things can survive.

Sigh... a Super Heavy survives one round of D-Scythes, typically eating about 6 HP or so, without an Invul to rely upon. Two rounds, or a second unit would wipe it, nearly guaranteed.

 Jimsolo wrote:
T5 and T7 models, respectively, in groups of 3-10 or 5, respectively. FNP on both. If there's a Cronos in range it's a 4+ FNP. A dark artisan formation probably not, but possibly. (T7, 3 models, 9 wounds, FNP 4+ with the possibility of rerolling FNP rolls of 1.)

D - weapons ignore toughness, and fnp.

D-sythes simply inflict d3 wounds on a 3+ per hit.

So, corpsthieft claw is actually one of the worst things to throw at them as pain engines would die almost as easy as a bunch of grots.

And you need something to eat overwatch as 5 overwatching d-scythes will kill a claw outright.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Any Superheavy with nine or more Hull Points and/or an Invulnerable save. A big Necron Warrior unit with the Decurion benefit is still getting 4+ saves, not sure if that'd be enough to save them. Depends on how spread out they are.

Do you mean 5+ saves with the Chronometron? Reanimation Protocols don't work against D-weapons, correct?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A three-monster Carnifex brood will survive with one left and wounded, I think.

Lots of wounds in few models seems to be a working solution.

Invuls help with that, not that Carnies have that... but as a rule.

Units with gigantic footprints and units with multiple wounds and Invuln Saves are most likely candidates. Khorne Dogs sound good. Particularly if you decided to put them on the new 50mm bases.

Soooo.... from another thread, according to the 40k RB, pg 164 - Feel No Pain...

"Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against Destroyer attacks..." without restriction. So only Invuls are any meaningful defence against D-Scythes.

Screamstar would survive this

then get tarpitted and stomped out by a wraithknight

Ah, didn't see that abou D weapons and FNP.

Hey, it's a brave new world. I'm learning too, trying to feel out the way it's going to be.

Big hordes will be able to survive and thrive against D weapon span and Eldar. Unless, of course, they bring those fancy new jetbikes that put out 4 S6 shots each... Then, the hordes will suffer greatly.

Yeah, I figured the list of things that could survive D-Templates would likely be shorter than things that would die to Scatter Spam.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Area denial point is well made.

Again, I'm trying to tackle this problem in parts. The notion of D-Scythes seemed rather overwhelming at first. It's nice to see that some "groups" of things can survive.

Sigh... a Super Heavy survives one round of D-Scythes, typically eating about 6 HP or so, without an Invul to rely upon. Two rounds, or a second unit would wipe it, nearly guaranteed.

If your super heavy is allowing the Scythes to survive a turn next to it, it's probably not the right super heavy to bring to this fight. (This is probably true of the super heavies with a limited number of Str D weapons rather than massive numbers of shots.)

I think personally if I had to face Scatter Spam + D weapons, my tailored list would be one Stormlord, and whatever it takes to protect it from eating D-weapon fire. As long as the D weapons can be dealt with, the AV 14 tank will wreck the bikes. (I guess the alternative would be to try to gun down as many bikes as possible before the tank gets wrecked, then having the rest of the list be MSU that don't care about taking a few D hits.)

100+ Green Tide Fearless Boyz will suck up the D-scythes.
Then krump them back to the stone garden.

Orikan and Company..gotta love that metal freak.

Why are people making arguments, primarily the Centurion star, about how their multi-part unit, utilizing a number of psychic powers, can defeat a WK, but not allowing the WK to have any psychic buffs himself or any other covering units?

If you're argument comes down to "the vast majority of my offensive power, supplemented by numerous abilities can defeat your lone and untouched unit" then you've kind of already lost the argument.

Particularly given how strong Eldar powers are. It'd be interesting to see Turn 1 the Farseer open up with an Apoc Blast EStorm (Given, not with the 5 WK list, but still.)

Against the Centstar? They tank the hits on their 2+ save and a 5+ deny the witch if they wanted to bother.

You can also buff friendly units, obviously. Or if they put more points into WC-generating units, they could probably make it damn difficult to get those crucial rolls.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Oberron wrote:
Funny enough any of the C'tan shards can survive it.

Umm, how? 5 hits, lets say 3 wound, he makes 1 save (usually my luck with 4++ saves) and fails 2, takes 2d3 wounds. On average from that, he's dead.

using your 3 wounds on average you save 1.5 so 50/50 on taking 2d3 or just 1d3, even on the 2d3 you have 1/3 of a chance to live any way. On the T c'tan with it's extra wound has a 66% on living on the 2d3.

Warp Spiders.
Dance out of range with flicker jump when the scythes target you.

Beast Pack of Khymereae, speed to get to the target, large enough bases to really spread out, and 5+ invul to reduce losses.

Lychstar has been mentioned, but I'll do the mathammer.

Assuming barebones lychstar, Orikan + 5 LG sword and board.
Assuming every model is hit by every template.
6x5, 30 hits, 20 D-wounds. ~3 dead lychguard ,+3 rerolls, = 4 dead total.

So assuming All 5 WG hit all 6 models (somehow), of the weakest Lychstar, they will still leave at least one Lg,+ orikan standing.

On top of this, LG are swinging S5 powerswords and can tank the overwatch easily.

2x5 hits, 6 wounds, 4.6 saved, before the WG are stuck in a combat they don't want to be in.

Barebones lychstar costs 270 pts. Usually it comes stocked with a 2+ re-rollable armor save to handle scatbikes.
WG are 210? + the WS, which is probably dead because it ran right into the army, to unload.

With a proper spread of models, WG will mostly bounce off the unit.

Poor C'tan Shards. You were viable for 2 months. Now a squad of scatter laser jetbikes will kill you in one turn.

Well, the "wall of death" will land approx 2 hits per template, causing 1.33 kills.

So anything cheap can assault it without much worries.


Actually SHOOTING the template? anything outside the reach of the furmost template is immune, so they got a maximum effective range of about 20 inch, IF the WS is alive and well, any model beyond that is completely safe.
Hordes will typically not worry too much either, even assuming the wraiths gets within 2" of the horde, nothing more than 8" of the front wraith can die, with proper spacing and "arrowheading", that's about 6-10 models max-not really cost effective against 4-6 PPM units. heck, hardly efficient against 10PPM units, given the fact you are now out in the open, likely beyond reach of additional targets (low range, no longer quick), and can be blasted apart.

Than again, jetbikes ruin horde's day.


The key here, I think, is speed.
As long you maintain 20" away from the WS, you are immune. anything that can afford to move away and still be lethal (or better yet, the WS flatting out to it is suicidal for both it and its cargo) will do just fine agains wavewraiths.

I'm far more concerned about DE making them DS-as here you can't make buffers, and you KNOW they are getting the first shot. (though placement issues will make it hard for some of them to shoot, given that templates cannot go over your own models.


Wraiths are tough, but nothing close in threat level to bikes, or the aspect shrine. both scare me FAR more.
Heck, aspect shrine fire dragons will put out not far firepower against big targets for a smaller cost, and given that the tactic is suicidal, durability hardly matters.



Overall, not my worst concern facing new eldar.

Screamer star will not only survive, but then rip the unit a new hole. ++2 save re-rolling? Probably going to start bringing it to more games.

Anything with a good invul save? 50% of stuff on a landing pad?

D scythes are the ones that cannot roll the i wreck your face in 6?

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, the "wall of death" will land approx 2 hits per template, causing 1.33 kills.

aren't those wraith units usually SNP? honest question its been a while and i dont have the new book

rollawaythestone wrote:
Units with gigantic footprints and units with multiple wounds and Invuln Saves are most likely candidates. Khorne Dogs sound good. Particularly if you decided to put them on the new 50mm bases.

Yeah Flesh hounds definitely is a good bet against WG, bring 15 of them on 50mm bases, spread them out 2" apart and keep them near a cursed earth HoT for that 4++. If invisibility isn't nerf at a particular tournament, I'd probably cast that on them.

Screamer star would work the best tho, after grimoire and cursed earth. Even 2++ reroll on 4++, they'll take about 2.5 wounds for one dead screamer assuming a unit of 6 all got hit by each of the 5 templates. I'd probably use the screamer star to charge first before the hounds if I don't have any sacrificial summoned daemons to do it.

Wraithguard should be, but aren't Slow and Purposeful.

That said, 10 Tacs in a Rhino.
The Rhino is toast, but the Tacs are mostly fine.

On a more serious note, sans Formation:

-Serpent pivots on spot, 0" gain
-Disembark 6"
-Shoot 8/9"

That's a 15" threat range, not 20.

Alternately:
-Serpent moves up6", doesnt pivot. 9" long, so a gain of -3"
-Same as above

That's only 12" threat...

Remember that no part of the Serpent can move more than 6". So, unless it starts with its hind end facing you (then, why haven't you popped the expensive AV10 with no Shield?), the Serpent only helps the round before they disembark.

Huh thats strange i would of sworn they where SNP.. o well.
Still seems like any flavor of invul saves punk them a bit.

it seems like its a good idea to start taking more DT non open tops to stop the WWP instagib

Or simply give no noteworthy targets.

If no single unit in your army costs over 100 points, do you really care that his combo can instagib one?

Been said before, but anything in cheap transports. At least not considering scatter bikes. Grimoire would offer excellent protection. Also flying dreadclaws ^^

The OP describes exactly how I played my scythes in the last codex - flat out, survive and wreck. Not played a game yet with the next dex but I will do exactly the same.

As others have said in various ways, invulns are the bane of D-sythes (aside from flyers and invisible units). Most 3++ units have a decent chance of surviving depending on their size and positioning and such.

I play against thunderwolf cav occasionally with storm shields and they do good. We'll see how the new rules change things but I think they will survive to get into combat.

Ah! Someone that uses this idea!

So, combined with say, 15 Scatter Bikes, what kinds of units / strategies would survive well? My concern is that between 15-20 Scatter Bikes, and a couple 5-man units of D-Scythe guard, I'd have precious little left after 3 turns.

AV 12- or infantry without a 2+ save will likely be shredded pretty effectively by the long range Scats, and then anything sufficiently tough to survive them is apt to be targeted by D-Scythes. It seems like a pretty workable idea at 1500 points, more so at 1850, I'd guess.

Does that seem like a practical [abusive?] build? I'm not sure what a person could take to counter it. I've never faced Screamer Star, but it seems like Daemons in general would have a tough time with the rest of their units being wrecked by Scats, leaving just the one Deathstar to whittle down / avoid as best as possible. Score a handful of objectives at the end of the game [I play 95% Eternal War missions] and life should be easy.

Trying to dance at the outer edges of Necron ability to return fire seems like a good solution to their durability. Admittedly, 3/4 of the Scatter wounds get shrugged off, but with so much firepower focussing on one unit at a time, it feels like you could just dance around them all game. Anything that gets too close gets smothered in templates?

White Scars with Knights should be able to wipe a squad of bikes per turn with D-Scythes, and if not the Scats could probably drown them in saves.

Scatter Bikes should be able to overwhelm TWC, if they have SS. Without an invul, D-Scythes should get them too.

*Smirk* I think I might be derailing my own thread here. Are there many "high end" lists that 20 Scatter Bikes + 2x 5-Man D-Scythes in Serps would have a lot of trouble with? Say, at 1500 points? I haven't faced a proper Decurion list yet, so I don't know how insanely resilient they are.

Perhaps a better question, is how effective do you find a pair of WG units to be? What would you think supports them the best?

35 Chaos Cultist Zombies that have Infiltrated. What are they going to do? Go out of their way to stomp them out of existance with 3/4 of their armies single target firepower? Ok.... Then the other 2-3 squads advance up the board lock things down for the remainder of the game and you casually walk up to Objectives and capture them.

Wraithknights are a good example. Throw 35 Cultsits at it. What's the worst that can happen? It stomps them? kills maybe 6, 3-4 with its CC Attacks? they're fearless and they aren't going anywhere... There goes 2-3 Turns of wasted WK power. Wave Serpents? Ok, Force them to disembark and try to kill you, then what? They're in the open, Shoot them to crap with something from long range since theirs is short.

Alcibiades wrote:
Poor C'tan Shards. You were viable for 2 months. Now a squad of scatter laser jetbikes will kill you in one turn.

Scatter laser jetbikes have better targets then the slow t7 c'tan shard. 40shots (assuming max count) 26.4 hits needing 5+ to wound is 8.71 wounds 4+/4++ is 4.356 wounds on average. The burning one formation makes it even tougher with the crypteks and better saves and FNP. The C'tan shard has 4 powers that can reach the jetbikes.

AMM is s8 ap3 so ID and will force a jink on the jetbikes. If fired by the nightbringer scatters 3" on average depending on how spread out the bikes are hits 1-2. So around one dead but forces them to snapshot, Deceiver scatters 2" average hitting 1-3 depending on spread making 1.5 dead bikes.

Herp'd on math went back and fixed it. Should be right on the jetbikes fireing at the C'tan. But on another note that is a lot of wasted firing potential to use against the C'tan.

bikes are 4+ armor right?

3+ , they are MEQs (basically)

The strength of the C'tan would be making them declare a jink before drawing the card, Target-jink-draw power.So either they jink for the AP3 blast/D/S9ap2 , or dont. It's 50/50 wasted jink.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Warp Spiders.
Dance out of range with flicker jump when the scythes target you.

Beast Pack of Khymereae, speed to get to the target, large enough bases to really spread out, and 5+ invul to reduce losses.

I've already imagining the WG wasting their shots on spiders right now

Oberron wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Poor C'tan Shards. You were viable for 2 months. Now a squad of scatter laser jetbikes will kill you in one turn.

Scatter laser jetbikes have better targets then the slow t7 c'tan shard. 40shots (assuming max count) 20 hits

BS 4 = 26 hits.

On average they do around 4 wounds = dead C'tan Shard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
awful unit design. Awful.

Unit of Flesh Hounds on their sweet new 50 mm bases?

harkequin wrote:

bikes are 4+ armor right?

3+ , they are MEQs (basically)

The strength of the C'tan would be making them declare a jink before drawing the card, Target-jink-draw power.So either they jink for the AP3 blast/D/S9ap2 , or dont. It's 50/50 wasted jink.

Oh yeah that's pretty funny.... a small useful thing for the C'tan to have to roll for powers after picking his target.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Ah! Someone that uses this idea!

So, combined with say, 15 Scatter Bikes, what kinds of units / strategies would survive well? My concern is that between 15-20 Scatter Bikes, and a couple 5-man units of D-Scythe guard, I'd have precious little left after 3 turns.

AV 12- or infantry without a 2+ save will likely be shredded pretty effectively by the long range Scats, and then anything sufficiently tough to survive them is apt to be targeted by D-Scythes. It seems like a pretty workable idea at 1500 points, more so at 1850, I'd guess.

Does that seem like a practical [abusive?] build? I'm not sure what a person could take to counter it. I've never faced Screamer Star, but it seems like Daemons in general would have a tough time with the rest of their units being wrecked by Scats, leaving just the one Deathstar to whittle down / avoid as best as possible. Score a handful of objectives at the end of the game [I play 95% Eternal War missions] and life should be easy.

Trying to dance at the outer edges of Necron ability to return fire seems like a good solution to their durability. Admittedly, 3/4 of the Scatter wounds get shrugged off, but with so much firepower focussing on one unit at a time, it feels like you could just dance around them all game. Anything that gets too close gets smothered in templates?

White Scars with Knights should be able to wipe a squad of bikes per turn with D-Scythes, and if not the Scats could probably drown them in saves.

Scatter Bikes should be able to overwhelm TWC, if they have SS. Without an invul, D-Scythes should get them too.

*Smirk* I think I might be derailing my own thread here. Are there many "high end" lists that 20 Scatter Bikes + 2x 5-Man D-Scythes in Serps would have a lot of trouble with? Say, at 1500 points? I haven't faced a proper Decurion list yet, so I don't know how insanely resilient they are.

Perhaps a better question, is how effective do you find a pair of WG units to be? What would you think supports them the best?

I would consider scatter bikes plus scytheguard to be a power/competitive/cheese list. They synergise very well with the bikes handling the spam and the guard handling everything else. My list is using war walkers for the massed fire rather than bikes which have the same fire-power but are much easier to catch and counter (any CC or S6-7 stuff will wreck walkers) so not as cheesy (also I have 6 walkers painted). A list with mostly bikes and scythes would go toe to toe with the best other top armies have to offer and there is really very little hard counter to them.


Guard are not invincible though and they do die when out of transports - heavy weapons, CC (which can survive the over watch) or massed fire will bring them down and scythe guard cost 42 points each so each loss is a blow - its really just how much damage they can do before going down.

Overall I think its up to Eldar players to not bring disgusting lists where they are not appropriate and after a few games of experimenting most non-tournament lists will settle down.

I was talking about this recently with a few people and they are a real threat. I generally play guard or ba but also a few other armies.

With guard I'd just fire ignore cover lascanons at the transport and make them walk while slowly picking them off.

Ba or sm I'd get grav bikes near to take out the transpot then get some plasma in there.

Vindicare vs the WS is the other option but as a mate pointed out, if your going down this road you wont rely on just one of these units. It would be a real headache for any non invis unit

Honestly, outside of deep striking I am not worried about the D scythes. Max of a 20 inch threat range(absolute max) 6 +6 disembark + 8 inch template.

If the wave serpent gets too close then I just cover the back and blow it up, forcing an emergency disembark(literally one model in the back would force a disembark since they are on larger bases)

forcing an emergency disembark(literally one model in the back would force a disembark since they are on larger bases)

Can you emergency disembark within 1"? If not then the unit would be destroyed, also you could always charge the WS , surround it and glance it to death in CC.
No disembarking then.

 Leth wrote:
Honestly, outside of deep striking I am not worried about the D scythes. Max of a 20 inch threat range(absolute max) 6 +6 disembark + 8 inch template.

If the wave serpent gets too close then I just cover the back and blow it up, forcing an emergency disembark(literally one model in the back would force a disembark since they are on larger bases)

If anyone took the Wind Rider host AND a Wraith host, you can add a 6" Battle Focus to that 20" threat range. Turn 1 I could dump D-Scythe Templates 4" into your deployment zone.

Bare Bones, this would give you
Jet Seer
Jetlock
Vyper
3x3 Jetbikes
Spirit Seer
3x5 Wraithguard
Wraithlord
Wraith Knight

That's 1323 points.
Then you pick up 3 Wave Serpents for transports (330 points), and upgrade ~2 units to scythes (100 points).
You're at 1753, and still have just under 100 points for other upgrades.

Having a wraithlord and wraith knight that gains battle focus is kind of cool, cause we know they aren't good enough as is.

-Matt

Since when do your Wraithguard have battlefocus!?

Since the Spirit Host formation.

Its just bonkersly BS. Undoes a major balancing factor on a stupidly-strong unit. At least it's D6, so its random, right? ...

(The new Formations have stupidly good buffs for units that don't need them)

Where is the spirithost formation?

In the craftworld warhost you get the automatic 6" run, with the wraithhost you get re-roll hits on enemies within 18" of the spiritseer.

Even with it, it's still 6"move 6"unload ~3.5"run 7.5" template. so about 23" threat range, assuming your ideal target starts directly across from you. I don't think a turn D-Flame is a worry

harkequin wrote:
Since when do your Wraithguard have battlefocus!?

Page 145, Wraith Host Formation.
Special rules:
*Battle Focus.

Page 95 Craftworld Warhost
Command Benefit:
Matchless Agility: If a unit complased entirely of models from this detachment runs, do not roll a D6... counts as having rolled a 6.

And the combining super sauce:
Page 94, last paragraph.
Although units cannot normally belong to more than one Detachment, units froma Formation that is part of a Craftworld Warhost are an exception. They count as part of both their Formation and the Detachment, and have all associated Command Benefits and special rules.


The Wraith Host gives them battle focus. The Craftworld formation lets them always count the run as a "6" without rolling.

Pretty powerful but still overall "meh". There is almost no ranged threat in that list, nor is there anything remotely resilient outside of the wraithknight.

It would crumble to any army with a hybrid ranged/assault presence.

I would happily play against such a list with my current forces

Ah gotcha, I know how the detatchment works. I just managed to miss the "special rules:battle focus" part of wraithhost. Only saw the next part.

Goddammit, this is just getting ridiculous.

 Leth wrote:
Pretty powerful but still overall "meh". There is almost no ranged threat in that list, nor is there anything remotely resilient outside of the wraithknight.

It would crumble to any army with a hybrid ranged/assault presence.

I would happily play against such a list with my current forces

I don't know, turn one taking 5 wraith cannon shots, 10 D-Scythes, a sun cannon, and 9 scatter lasers is a little rough, along with a shuriken cannon and 3 twin-linked shuriken cannons, and for giggles, 6D6 S6 ignore cover shots.
Wraith Knight, Wraith lord, and 15 wraith guard aren't durable? huh.
It puts a hell of a wall in front of those shuriken cannons and scatter lasers (hint, you use the remaining 97 points to buy 9 scatter lasers and the last 5 on a wraith glaive for the wraith lord).
Then you've got a level 3, level 2 and level 1 psyker floating around as well.

I don't think it's as strong as webway D-scythes disembarking from a wave serpent, but if you don't want DE allies, it's an option.

I didnt say it was not powerful, I said I am not more worried about it than I am other lists. What would this army do if it didnt go first?

With my army I have the ability to reliably kill a unit of wraith guard with 1 character in 1-2 turns. I have throw away models for eating overwatch.

Basically if you are advancing into that range you had better be sure you are going to get the kill. Otherwise I will kill most of your models quite easily on my first turn.

But then again I run a hybrid of Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Skitarii so I have answers to all of that(Dat -1 toughness rad grenades). If I was mono book I would definately be very worried, and in two sources I would be worried. However in 3+ sources I am not really that concerned.

Eldar can do a lot of things well, but they cant do it all at once.

If they over specialize they deal with hard counters, if they generalize then they are still powerful but not as overwhelming.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
I dont know where you guys are getting this "only 10 hits" from. Even with 40mm bases you should get at LEAST 3 each. Even if it were possible to position like that, they could just target something more clumped, hop back in the serpent, and do it again in 2 turns. Also, Corpsethief and Grots get rekt thanks to no invul, no FNP and taking d3 wounds each.

Can the Talos Cronos take FNP though, it's only Str10 for ID, so FNP would apply.

 Exergy wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
I dont know where you guys are getting this "only 10 hits" from. Even with 40mm bases you should get at LEAST 3 each. Even if it were possible to position like that, they could just target something more clumped, hop back in the serpent, and do it again in 2 turns. Also, Corpsethief and Grots get rekt thanks to no invul, no FNP and taking d3 wounds each.

Can the Talos Cronos take FNP though, it's only Str10 for ID, so FNP would apply.

You cannot take FNP Against D weapons i though or did they fix that too?

Nope, no FNP versus the D.

Bharring wrote:
Wraithguard should be, but aren't Slow and Purposeful.

That said, 10 Tacs in a Rhino.
The Rhino is toast, but the Tacs are mostly fine.

On a more serious note, sans Formation:

-Serpent pivots on spot, 0" gain
-Disembark 6"
-Shoot 8/9"

That's a 15" threat range, not 20.

Alternately:
-Serpent moves up6", doesnt pivot. 9" long, so a gain of -3"
-Same as above

That's only 12" threat...

Remember that no part of the Serpent can move more than 6". So, unless it starts with its hind end facing you (then, why haven't you popped the expensive AV10 with no Shield?), the Serpent only helps the round before they disembark.

Pivoting does not count as movement man. Also with the formation, Wraithguard can battle focus for a guaranteed 6" so it looks more like this.

Move 6" + pivot disembark 6" + run 6" +fire 8" template = 26" max range.

Possibly a farsight bomb with 7 dual fusion blasters, a buff commander and 16 gun drones. Doesnt even need to survive a round of d scythes if they are all dead. Deep strike in front of the squad and shoot them to death.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
Possibly a farsight bomb with 7 dual fusion blasters, a buff commander and 16 gun drones. Doesnt even need to survive a round of d scythes if they are all dead. Deep strike in front of the squad and shoot them to death.

until another D scythe unit DSes next to them and wipes them out.

He who DSes first dies.

Does the Pivot rule overrule the movement rules?

If the back hatch moves 6.1 inches, the vehicle moved more than 6".

If that really is overridden, I have a lot more mobility than I thought!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The second DSing Scytheguard has full scatter. Only one is precision.

The way to fight Strength D flamers isn't trying to find one unit that can survive it. It's using units that you don't mind getting killed.

No one is going to cry when 5 of their Tactical Marines die to 5 D-Scythes.

Bharring wrote:
Does the Pivot rule overrule the movement rules?

If the back hatch moves 6.1 inches, the vehicle moved more than 6".

If that really is overridden, I have a lot more mobility than I thought!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The second DSing Scytheguard has full scatter. Only one is precision.

Yes, pivots dont count towards movement, unless you are a MC/Bike with a long base.

And someone can bring up to 3 WWPs easily for precision deepstrike.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Toughness doesn't factor much, due to the D table. However, if they can get 10 hits total, those should inflict 6 damage results, with an average of 2 wounds each. Cutting that roughly in half with a 4+ FNP keeps one of those guys alive, so that's a good answer.

Solid.

FNP can never be taken against D hits of any kind. Same for reanimation protocols. From what I understand, D scythes only affect the D damage table and their effective strength for instant death, but no FNP still stands, I believe.

There is now a do-pivots-count thread in YMDC. I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be a consensus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I had thought WWP was an artefact.

Cost to do the normal config?
5x WG w/Scythes - 210
Stock Serpent - 110
Archon + WWP - 95

Total is 415. That's Super heavy territory.

So, for 3, you need 1245 points just for them alone. Without bothering with formations/CAD. At a minimum of 3 sources (at least 2 DE detachments, at least 1 CW).

So possible, yes. Scary, yes. But a ton of points.

I don't think I'd deep strike 3.
A single webway should be enough; and you don't really need battle focus when you can disembark to get the perfect spread.

That said, you can 2 source it, and you can even CAD + 1 other.
DE could get the 3 webways from coven (2x50 point wracks, 3x haemonculus with webways) 415 points.

With 3x Scythe Guard and serpents, it's 960 more, for 1375 points. Still need an HQ and 2 troops to call it a cad, but that's cheap, (137 minimum). That leaves enough points where you could bring in a Wraith knight to camp until the scythes arrive.

I still believe your better off without the triple strike, as I doubt you'll need more than one. Points saved gives you the firepower you need to remove the screening chaff before they arrive.