Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Area denial point is well made.

Again, I'm trying to tackle this problem in parts. The notion of D-Scythes seemed rather overwhelming at first. It's nice to see that some "groups" of things can survive.

Sigh... a Super Heavy survives one round of D-Scythes, typically eating about 6 HP or so, without an Invul to rely upon. Two rounds, or a second unit would wipe it, nearly guaranteed.

 Jimsolo wrote:
T5 and T7 models, respectively, in groups of 3-10 or 5, respectively. FNP on both. If there's a Cronos in range it's a 4+ FNP. A dark artisan formation probably not, but possibly. (T7, 3 models, 9 wounds, FNP 4+ with the possibility of rerolling FNP rolls of 1.)

D - weapons ignore toughness, and fnp.

D-sythes simply inflict d3 wounds on a 3+ per hit.

So, corpsthieft claw is actually one of the worst things to throw at them as pain engines would die almost as easy as a bunch of grots.

And you need something to eat overwatch as 5 overwatching d-scythes will kill a claw outright.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Any Superheavy with nine or more Hull Points and/or an Invulnerable save. A big Necron Warrior unit with the Decurion benefit is still getting 4+ saves, not sure if that'd be enough to save them. Depends on how spread out they are.

Do you mean 5+ saves with the Chronometron? Reanimation Protocols don't work against D-weapons, correct?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A three-monster Carnifex brood will survive with one left and wounded, I think.

Lots of wounds in few models seems to be a working solution.

Invuls help with that, not that Carnies have that... but as a rule.

Units with gigantic footprints and units with multiple wounds and Invuln Saves are most likely candidates. Khorne Dogs sound good. Particularly if you decided to put them on the new 50mm bases.

Soooo.... from another thread, according to the 40k RB, pg 164 - Feel No Pain...

"Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against Destroyer attacks..." without restriction. So only Invuls are any meaningful defence against D-Scythes.

Screamstar would survive this

then get tarpitted and stomped out by a wraithknight

Ah, didn't see that abou D weapons and FNP.

Hey, it's a brave new world. I'm learning too, trying to feel out the way it's going to be.

Big hordes will be able to survive and thrive against D weapon span and Eldar. Unless, of course, they bring those fancy new jetbikes that put out 4 S6 shots each... Then, the hordes will suffer greatly.

Yeah, I figured the list of things that could survive D-Templates would likely be shorter than things that would die to Scatter Spam.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Area denial point is well made.

Again, I'm trying to tackle this problem in parts. The notion of D-Scythes seemed rather overwhelming at first. It's nice to see that some "groups" of things can survive.

Sigh... a Super Heavy survives one round of D-Scythes, typically eating about 6 HP or so, without an Invul to rely upon. Two rounds, or a second unit would wipe it, nearly guaranteed.

If your super heavy is allowing the Scythes to survive a turn next to it, it's probably not the right super heavy to bring to this fight. (This is probably true of the super heavies with a limited number of Str D weapons rather than massive numbers of shots.)

I think personally if I had to face Scatter Spam + D weapons, my tailored list would be one Stormlord, and whatever it takes to protect it from eating D-weapon fire. As long as the D weapons can be dealt with, the AV 14 tank will wreck the bikes. (I guess the alternative would be to try to gun down as many bikes as possible before the tank gets wrecked, then having the rest of the list be MSU that don't care about taking a few D hits.)

100+ Green Tide Fearless Boyz will suck up the D-scythes.
Then krump them back to the stone garden.

Orikan and Company..gotta love that metal freak.

Why are people making arguments, primarily the Centurion star, about how their multi-part unit, utilizing a number of psychic powers, can defeat a WK, but not allowing the WK to have any psychic buffs himself or any other covering units?

If you're argument comes down to "the vast majority of my offensive power, supplemented by numerous abilities can defeat your lone and untouched unit" then you've kind of already lost the argument.

Particularly given how strong Eldar powers are. It'd be interesting to see Turn 1 the Farseer open up with an Apoc Blast EStorm (Given, not with the 5 WK list, but still.)

Against the Centstar? They tank the hits on their 2+ save and a 5+ deny the witch if they wanted to bother.

You can also buff friendly units, obviously. Or if they put more points into WC-generating units, they could probably make it damn difficult to get those crucial rolls.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Oberron wrote:
Funny enough any of the C'tan shards can survive it.

Umm, how? 5 hits, lets say 3 wound, he makes 1 save (usually my luck with 4++ saves) and fails 2, takes 2d3 wounds. On average from that, he's dead.

using your 3 wounds on average you save 1.5 so 50/50 on taking 2d3 or just 1d3, even on the 2d3 you have 1/3 of a chance to live any way. On the T c'tan with it's extra wound has a 66% on living on the 2d3.

Warp Spiders.
Dance out of range with flicker jump when the scythes target you.

Beast Pack of Khymereae, speed to get to the target, large enough bases to really spread out, and 5+ invul to reduce losses.

Lychstar has been mentioned, but I'll do the mathammer.

Assuming barebones lychstar, Orikan + 5 LG sword and board.
Assuming every model is hit by every template.
6x5, 30 hits, 20 D-wounds. ~3 dead lychguard ,+3 rerolls, = 4 dead total.

So assuming All 5 WG hit all 6 models (somehow), of the weakest Lychstar, they will still leave at least one Lg,+ orikan standing.

On top of this, LG are swinging S5 powerswords and can tank the overwatch easily.

2x5 hits, 6 wounds, 4.6 saved, before the WG are stuck in a combat they don't want to be in.

Barebones lychstar costs 270 pts. Usually it comes stocked with a 2+ re-rollable armor save to handle scatbikes.
WG are 210? + the WS, which is probably dead because it ran right into the army, to unload.

With a proper spread of models, WG will mostly bounce off the unit.

Poor C'tan Shards. You were viable for 2 months. Now a squad of scatter laser jetbikes will kill you in one turn.

Well, the "wall of death" will land approx 2 hits per template, causing 1.33 kills.

So anything cheap can assault it without much worries.


Actually SHOOTING the template? anything outside the reach of the furmost template is immune, so they got a maximum effective range of about 20 inch, IF the WS is alive and well, any model beyond that is completely safe.
Hordes will typically not worry too much either, even assuming the wraiths gets within 2" of the horde, nothing more than 8" of the front wraith can die, with proper spacing and "arrowheading", that's about 6-10 models max-not really cost effective against 4-6 PPM units. heck, hardly efficient against 10PPM units, given the fact you are now out in the open, likely beyond reach of additional targets (low range, no longer quick), and can be blasted apart.

Than again, jetbikes ruin horde's day.


The key here, I think, is speed.
As long you maintain 20" away from the WS, you are immune. anything that can afford to move away and still be lethal (or better yet, the WS flatting out to it is suicidal for both it and its cargo) will do just fine agains wavewraiths.

I'm far more concerned about DE making them DS-as here you can't make buffers, and you KNOW they are getting the first shot. (though placement issues will make it hard for some of them to shoot, given that templates cannot go over your own models.


Wraiths are tough, but nothing close in threat level to bikes, or the aspect shrine. both scare me FAR more.
Heck, aspect shrine fire dragons will put out not far firepower against big targets for a smaller cost, and given that the tactic is suicidal, durability hardly matters.



Overall, not my worst concern facing new eldar.

Screamer star will not only survive, but then rip the unit a new hole. ++2 save re-rolling? Probably going to start bringing it to more games.

Anything with a good invul save? 50% of stuff on a landing pad?

D scythes are the ones that cannot roll the i wreck your face in 6?

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, the "wall of death" will land approx 2 hits per template, causing 1.33 kills.

aren't those wraith units usually SNP? honest question its been a while and i dont have the new book

rollawaythestone wrote:
Units with gigantic footprints and units with multiple wounds and Invuln Saves are most likely candidates. Khorne Dogs sound good. Particularly if you decided to put them on the new 50mm bases.

Yeah Flesh hounds definitely is a good bet against WG, bring 15 of them on 50mm bases, spread them out 2" apart and keep them near a cursed earth HoT for that 4++. If invisibility isn't nerf at a particular tournament, I'd probably cast that on them.

Screamer star would work the best tho, after grimoire and cursed earth. Even 2++ reroll on 4++, they'll take about 2.5 wounds for one dead screamer assuming a unit of 6 all got hit by each of the 5 templates. I'd probably use the screamer star to charge first before the hounds if I don't have any sacrificial summoned daemons to do it.

Wraithguard should be, but aren't Slow and Purposeful.

That said, 10 Tacs in a Rhino.
The Rhino is toast, but the Tacs are mostly fine.

On a more serious note, sans Formation:

-Serpent pivots on spot, 0" gain
-Disembark 6"
-Shoot 8/9"

That's a 15" threat range, not 20.

Alternately:
-Serpent moves up6", doesnt pivot. 9" long, so a gain of -3"
-Same as above

That's only 12" threat...

Remember that no part of the Serpent can move more than 6". So, unless it starts with its hind end facing you (then, why haven't you popped the expensive AV10 with no Shield?), the Serpent only helps the round before they disembark.

Huh thats strange i would of sworn they where SNP.. o well.
Still seems like any flavor of invul saves punk them a bit.

it seems like its a good idea to start taking more DT non open tops to stop the WWP instagib

Or simply give no noteworthy targets.

If no single unit in your army costs over 100 points, do you really care that his combo can instagib one?

Been said before, but anything in cheap transports. At least not considering scatter bikes. Grimoire would offer excellent protection. Also flying dreadclaws ^^

The OP describes exactly how I played my scythes in the last codex - flat out, survive and wreck. Not played a game yet with the next dex but I will do exactly the same.

As others have said in various ways, invulns are the bane of D-sythes (aside from flyers and invisible units). Most 3++ units have a decent chance of surviving depending on their size and positioning and such.

I play against thunderwolf cav occasionally with storm shields and they do good. We'll see how the new rules change things but I think they will survive to get into combat.

Ah! Someone that uses this idea!

So, combined with say, 15 Scatter Bikes, what kinds of units / strategies would survive well? My concern is that between 15-20 Scatter Bikes, and a couple 5-man units of D-Scythe guard, I'd have precious little left after 3 turns.

AV 12- or infantry without a 2+ save will likely be shredded pretty effectively by the long range Scats, and then anything sufficiently tough to survive them is apt to be targeted by D-Scythes. It seems like a pretty workable idea at 1500 points, more so at 1850, I'd guess.

Does that seem like a practical [abusive?] build? I'm not sure what a person could take to counter it. I've never faced Screamer Star, but it seems like Daemons in general would have a tough time with the rest of their units being wrecked by Scats, leaving just the one Deathstar to whittle down / avoid as best as possible. Score a handful of objectives at the end of the game [I play 95% Eternal War missions] and life should be easy.

Trying to dance at the outer edges of Necron ability to return fire seems like a good solution to their durability. Admittedly, 3/4 of the Scatter wounds get shrugged off, but with so much firepower focussing on one unit at a time, it feels like you could just dance around them all game. Anything that gets too close gets smothered in templates?

White Scars with Knights should be able to wipe a squad of bikes per turn with D-Scythes, and if not the Scats could probably drown them in saves.

Scatter Bikes should be able to overwhelm TWC, if they have SS. Without an invul, D-Scythes should get them too.

*Smirk* I think I might be derailing my own thread here. Are there many "high end" lists that 20 Scatter Bikes + 2x 5-Man D-Scythes in Serps would have a lot of trouble with? Say, at 1500 points? I haven't faced a proper Decurion list yet, so I don't know how insanely resilient they are.

Perhaps a better question, is how effective do you find a pair of WG units to be? What would you think supports them the best?