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Hi folks,

Just wondering... 5 D-Scythe Wraiths in a Wave Serpent isn't terribly expensive. Certainly less than your typical Deathstar, and I was wondering what units would survive being hit by 5x D-Scythes? Assuming all models from the targeted unit are within range. Obviously 50 Conscripts would have some survivors as I doubt they'd all be within range... but I don't think it would be terribly hard to get a typical 10-man unit within range of at least one Template, if you dropped out of a Wave Serpent.

I'm thinking that a Serpent, 1st turn, can often move / flat out to be right beside a target. Using Jink + Shield, they could reasonably survive a round of shooting, and then move 6", deploy 6", and then D-Scythes could smother a target in Templates. While there are some units that could simply move to avoid... like Eldar Jetbikes... many units would not be so fortunate. Anything slower than a "fast" vehicle, or a Bike / Jetbike unit couldn't avoid that range, and even then those units would need to flat out, preventing shooting or assault, to get away.

While I'm not sure of the points, such a versatile "kill anything" unit seems like a total no-brainer... so I'm wondering what kinds of units could reasonably survive about 20 hits on large unit, on the D-Scythes' modified Destroyer Table? AP to penetrate Terminator Armour, with Ignores cover, wounding automatically for d3 Wounds / HP on a 3+ per hit? 5 Hits on a single model, such as a Daemon Prince. I suppose that if you only rolled 2x 3+, you'd only average 4 wounds, so after Invuls you'd probably survive, although on average you'd inflict 6 wounds, and then after [Tzeentch] invuls... you'd still be alive. With 1 wound. On average.

Not a whine thread, just a curiosity thread.

Failing that, any reasonable strategies for dealing with them? Someone had mentioned you could use a "throw away" unit to eat overwatch before assaulting with a second unit... but if you're facing two of these you're probably losing one unit to deployment shooting, another to eating overwatch, and then possibly a 3rd to tying them up / killing them in CC. I mean, it's not like they're just going to fall down in CC unless you've got a dedicated Assault unit to plow into them. High Toughness and MEQ save, you know.

So I guess I'll start with suggesting that a 4 [Or more] Wound MC, with a 4+ Invul would typically survive 5x D-Scythes, with one wound left.

Examples off the top of my head include Tzeentchian Daemon Princes and Riptides, as RT have enough wounds to survive a single round of fire.

Any unit in the game with invisibility.

Any unit that stretches beyond the 8 inch range of the scythes.

Other than that, as you pointed out in your post, anyone that spreads their models properly. You will probably only hit 4-5 per scythe. With something like wraiths probably only 2.

So 5 wraithguard will get maybe 10 wraith hits. 3-4 of those do nothing. Then only about 2 will fail, killing on average 2 wraiths.

Right on. I always forget Invisibility.

So Be'Lakor, or any unit with 2x 2 Rolls on Telepathy has a 56% chance to get Invis, or a 50% chance with someone taking 3 rolls on Telepathy can, assuming a successful manifestation, become immune.

I would imagine that an elder force focussing on 15 - 20 Scatterbikes, plus a couple of D-Scythe units in Serps wouldn't have much left over for Psychic stuff at 1500 points, so the manifestation would probably occur if you could throw 6 or so dice at the attempt... not hard with that many psychic levels.

Good stuff!

[My local group has house ruled Invis to be less amazing, but in the outside world that's a working option.]

EDIT: Also looks like 3+ Invuls on well spread models can help. Assault Termies spread to only take a total of 10 hits would hopefully only lose a couple of guys as well. They would be ill-advised to then do a follow up assault [as would Necro-Wraiths] since they'd hypothetically then lose 2 more dudes... but they'd survive the initial blast, so that's something.

A D-Scythe might as well be a heavy flamer for anything T3 4+ with 1 wound.

Actually it's worse since the heavy flamer wiil wound on 2s and the DScythe on 3s.

So better said, it is a flamer for anything T3 5+ with 1 wound.

Agreed that a D-Scythe is no better than a Flamer vs Guardsmen... but 10 Guardsmen aren't going to survive being hit by 5 flamers either, so that has little to do with the price of eggs. I can assure you that 10 Guardsmen aren't going to survive being hit by 5 flamers.

Orikanstar would remain mostly unscathed from D-scythes.

Would you mind explaining? I'm not sure what Orikanstar is.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Would you mind explaining? I'm not sure what Orikanstar is.

5+ Lychguard with Dispersion shields (a 3++ save), and a named character Orikan the Diviner, which lets them reroll saving throws of 1. They wouldn't get their reanimate from the D-scythes, but they'll have a 3++ rerolling 1s, so would mostly remain intact.

Also, 150 points worth of wyches will tie up that 210 points worth of d-scythe wraithguard for an entire game.

Unit of 5 wyches charges to soak wall of death overwatch. Dies horribly.
Unit of 10 wyches charges and ties them down for the rest of the game.
Profit.

This works with any other cheap model with at least a 4+ save in CC too. 150 points of Kabalite warriors could do the same thing. 150 points of SM Scouts, Imperial Guardsmen, Tyranid Hormagaunts, etc. Basically, less points worth of pretty much every cheap troops choice in the game can nullify them while using less points than they cost. The hormagaunts don't have 4+ saves, but they make up for it by costing 5 points each and being fearless.

Gotcha. So it looks like High-Wound MC's with decent Invuls are able to survive a round, as are small, well spread units of 3++ units, based on only being tagged with 10 hits.

After that, we have units that are simply so large as to not be within range of a template. And those grunts aren't likely to have much impact on those WG.

Then there's Invisibility... which is itself a hugely broken power. Not guaranteed if you're rolling on the table.

Fast units that can avoid the WG in their Serpent.

While having many units around to soak overwatch / prevent assault are possible... the Wyches need a unit to get mushed by D Scythes, a unit to soak overwatch, and a unit to assault with. So three units going into the WG to tie them up. Further... they aren't surviving 5 hits from D-Scythes, which is my focus here. It is a method to deal with ONE unit of WG, but not the focus of what I'm asking.

Other suggestions on what could survive?

It really depends on how many hits per model the unit is taking too. If they're spread enough that each model is taking 1-2 hits it's different than a unit that is clumped and getting all 5 templates on itself.

That said, if the enemy moves a WS next to a 10 man unit which has krak grenades. The correct course of action is probably to pop the wave serpent in an assault, lose the unit but effectively deny the D-Scythes their mobility from that point on.

I believe grotesques or a Corpsethief claw could maybe do it?

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Also, 150 points worth of wyches will tie up that 210 points worth of d-scythe wraithguard for an entire game.

Unit of 5 wyches charges to soak wall of death overwatch. Dies horribly.
Unit of 10 wyches charges and ties them down for the rest of the game.
Profit.

This works with any other cheap model with at least a 4+ save in CC too. 150 points of Kabalite warriors could do the same thing. 150 points of SM Scouts, Imperial Guardsmen, Tyranid Hormagaunts, etc. Basically, less points worth of pretty much every cheap troops choice in the game can nullify them while using less points than they cost. The hormagaunts don't have 4+ saves, but they make up for it by costing 5 points each and being fearless.

-Flat out next to unit desired.
-Move serpent 6" then deploy 6" (next turn after opponent has moved any units to try counter).
-With formation you can move a further d6" before shooting
Even without the last point, no 5 man unit without MASSIVE bases is going to prevent the wave serpent and wraiths simply moving over them or around them to get at the unit they want. And even if they could, that would mean you would have to buy tons of 5 man units as the wraiths could simply pick any of your units. And outside of a vacume, such a unit will very likely die to 3 scatter bikes anyway to pave the way for the wraiths.

Any unit that assaults a Serpent will probably be rather clustered, without a Consolidation move afterwards. Perfect target for D-Scythes. So again, a way to deal, but not a way to survive.

Could you explain Grots / Corpsethief Claw to me? I don't know what they are.

My overall goal is looking at ways to counter 20 or so Scatter Bikes, with a Couple of WG Scythes in Serpents at 1500 pts. I think that's within reason, being without a codex to check points. Since Scatter Lasers can deal with most targets, and I think D-Scythes can deal with most anything else, I'm wondering what could hypothetically survive even one round of D-Scythes to then try to deal with something else.

I dunno, just spitballing some ideas.

T5 and T7 models, respectively, in groups of 3-10 or 5, respectively. FNP on both. If there's a Cronos in range it's a 4+ FNP. A dark artisan formation probably not, but possibly. (T7, 3 models, 9 wounds, FNP 4+ with the possibility of rerolling FNP rolls of 1.)

Toughness doesn't factor much, due to the D table. However, if they can get 10 hits total, those should inflict 6 damage results, with an average of 2 wounds each. Cutting that roughly in half with a 4+ FNP keeps one of those guys alive, so that's a good answer.

Solid.

Literally anything with a 15 point Solar Staff.

A Flyer is a true counter. Not even a Template that goes through it to hit another unit can land wounds on it.

I dont know where you guys are getting this "only 10 hits" from. Even with 40mm bases you should get at LEAST 3 each. Even if it were possible to position like that, they could just target something more clumped, hop back in the serpent, and do it again in 2 turns. Also, Corpsethief and Grots get rekt thanks to no invul, no FNP and taking d3 wounds each.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Also, Corpsethief and Grots get rekt thanks to no invul, no FNP and taking d3 wounds each.

Grots can have an Invulnerable save if there is a KFF nearby and D3 wounds each does nothing because they don't spill over.

Although Grots will probably run away unless backed by a Stompa or some other method of making them Fearless.

Any Superheavy with nine or more Hull Points and/or an Invulnerable save. A big Necron Warrior unit with the Decurion benefit is still getting 4+ saves, not sure if that'd be enough to save them. Depends on how spread out they are.

Could you please explain the Solar Staff?

Flyers indeed are a counter. I was wondering about things that could be "hit" by Templates.

The 10 hits are a concession to actively spreading models, as I'm not familiar with some of the sizes. 3 hits per template might be more accurate in reality, but I've never used many of these units so I can't judge the practicality of doing so. Response to D-Scythes might create a meta-shift to actively spread such units when facing them, potentially limiting their effectiveness.

I think also that a lot of people are missing the fact (maybe not on this thread - just in general) that such a unit effectively makes a 18-20", 'you can't stand there' bubble, due to serp move + disembark. I know the original question was 'what could survive it', but it misses pointing out that a serp, filled with d scythe wraiths is simply preventing ANY non-flyer unit in the game moving within that bubble or it will either die, or suffer such horrendous casualties that it may as well be dead. And taking down the serp is not an easy task in itself. That kind of area denial is pretty much unheard of in the game for anything remotely near those points.
2 such units will give total bully board control (I mean that as a bully unit before any posters decide to make a post with the word 'tears' in it), and mean the opposing player is always on the back foot reacting to the eldar player rather than being able to take the initiative. This problem of always reacting is exacerbated by other units in the dex.

Funny enough any of the C'tan shards can survive it.

Oberron wrote:
Funny enough any of the C'tan shards can survive it.

Umm, how? 5 hits, lets say 3 wound, he makes 1 save (usually my luck with 4++ saves) and fails 2, takes 2d3 wounds. On average from that, he's dead.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I think also that a lot of people are missing the fact (maybe not on this thread - just in general) that such a unit effectively makes a 18-20", 'you can't stand there' bubble, due to serp move + disembark. I know the original question was 'what could survive it', but it misses pointing out that a serp, filled with d scythe wraiths is simply preventing ANY non-flyer unit in the game moving within that bubble or it will either die, or suffer such horrendous casualties that it may as well be dead. And taking down the serp is not an easy task in itself. That kind of area denial is pretty much unheard of in the game for anything remotely near those points.
2 such units will give total bully board control (I mean that as a bully unit before any posters decide to make a post with the word 'tears' in it), and mean the opposing player is always on the back foot reacting to the eldar player rather than being able to take the initiative. This problem of always reacting is exacerbated by other units in the dex.

The Wave Serpent is sitting on a 4+ Jink or a 5+ Inv now, no more 3+ Jink, and it remains AV 12 front. The problem with Serpents before was the target saturation because the Wave Serpents themselves were a threat, now the passengers in these two or three specific Wave Serpents are a threat and those particular Wave Serpents are going to get focused down quickly.

I expect WWP to be much more of an issue with D-scythe Wraithguard since they get their shot off before you have a chance to whittle them down at all or pop their transport and you can't avoid them except by completely bubble-wrapping anything big.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Could you please explain the Solar Staff?

It's a 15 point relic that Necrons have. Once per game, until the start of your next turn, the bearer and his unit can essentially become pseudo invisible. "Any enemy unit that shoots at the bearer and his unit are treated as making Snap Shots"

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I think also that a lot of people are missing the fact (maybe not on this thread - just in general) that such a unit effectively makes a 18-20", 'you can't stand there' bubble, due to serp move + disembark. I know the original question was 'what could survive it', but it misses pointing out that a serp, filled with d scythe wraiths is simply preventing ANY non-flyer unit in the game moving within that bubble or it will either die, or suffer such horrendous casualties that it may as well be dead. And taking down the serp is not an easy task in itself. That kind of area denial is pretty much unheard of in the game for anything remotely near those points.
2 such units will give total bully board control (I mean that as a bully unit before any posters decide to make a post with the word 'tears' in it), and mean the opposing player is always on the back foot reacting to the eldar player rather than being able to take the initiative. This problem of always reacting is exacerbated by other units in the dex.

The Wave Serpent is sitting on a 4+ Jink or a 5+ Inv now, no more 3+ Jink, and it remains AV 12 front. The problem with Serpents before was the target saturation because the Wave Serpents themselves were a threat, now the passengers in these two or three specific Wave Serpents are a threat and those particular Wave Serpents are going to get focused down quickly.

I expect WWP to be much more of an issue with D-scythe Wraithguard since they get their shot off before you have a chance to whittle them down at all or pop their transport and you can't avoid them except by completely bubble-wrapping anything big.

Very true. However, the target saturation is still there, just in the form of wraithknights and jetbikes sitting at over 24" away and thus requiring your heavy weaponary.

Yeah. Any super heavy is taking on average 5x4/3 = about 7HP. That's survivable for most.

Toss on a dude with a PFG near it to give it a 4++ and it's only 3.5. (For the record the guy can be hidden from it and hidden among enough models that they can't scythe him down.