I've been playing orks for quite some time. And as much as i love the codex, there are some ballance problems within the book. For example, i do love walkers but we all know how mediocre-at-best they are. Just can't bring a walker for a footslogging army - and it should be the exact place they'd shine. Also, i'm not quite happy with how flashgitz and snikrot kommandoes perform. I often run min squad of kommandoes with rokkits but it's just not exactly what i depict they should do on the field. And a large squad with snikrot is pretty meh. Relics are interesting but the current restrictions of one per character almost always exclude such cool stuff like Dead Shiny Shoota. And there's an obvious problem of dominating DLS cause it's simply too good to pass by.
Besides, some special rules are not thought out well enough imo.
So, here is a list of changes i'd apply to Codex: Orks to make our lists even more variable and internal ballance even better! WARNING! There might be a large number of changes
Mob rule:
Spoiler:
Gives +1 ld for fear tests
Breaking Heads - The wounds must be allocated to models closest to the character (but not other characters). If there are multiple characters, can allocate wounds to models closest to any of the characters
Squabble - The controlling player allocates wounds himself. Can't allocate wounds to characters.
Wargear, Equipment, Vehicle Equipment, Gifts
Spoiler:
Burna - straight up flamer, no secondary mellee capabilities. Costs 5 pts. Able to make one s5 ap2 unwieldy attack in mellee. Does not prevent from shooting a flamer. Costs 10 pts.
Da Dead Shiny Shoota - Can be taken in addition to other artifacts
Da Fixer Upperz - Can be taken in addition to other artifacts
Eadwompa Killchoppa - Rending and ID on a 5+ +2 str ap3, rending, ID on a 6. Costs 20 pts
Da Lukky Stikk - Allows to reroll only till the first fail per turn. Counts as a bosspole too.
Warboss Gazbag's Blitzbike adds Skilled Rider
Cybork Body goes back to 5++. Costs 10 pts for a warboss and Big mek. Painboss gets it for 5 pts.
Deff Rolla inflicts d3 s10 ap4 hits when ramming. No additional hits when Death Or Glory.
Grabbing Klaw - immobilizes a ground target on a 3+; Skimmers on a 4+ and they suffer an ignore cover Glancing Hit; Gliding FMC on a 4+ and they suffer an ap- wound, ignores cover. Can't target flyers or swooping FMC but when something attempts a vector strike against a vehicle equipped with a grabbing Klaw, an ork player can attempt to grab it! One of this might happen:
If it's a FMC (but not a Garganaught FMC), on a roll of 6+ it takes an ap-, ignores cover wound and must emidiately pass a grounding test and if failed, must be placed as close to the vehicle as possible.
If it's a flyer (but not a superheavy flyer), on a roll of 6+ it suffers an ignore cover glancing hit and an immobilized result. If it crashes, the blast must be placed upon the center of a Vehicle (that crashed the flyer with it's Klaw) and than scatter normally.
Wrekking Ball - Heavy 1, s9 ap4, 3" - costs 3 pts. Rerolls to-hit against Immobilized targets
Red Paint Job - back to +1 both while moving and performing flat-out move. Flyers get +1 to jink saves. Costs 5 pts for ground vehicles and 10 pts for Dakkajets, 15 pts for bombers.
Stikkbomb Chukka - counts as assault and defensive grenades for walkers (15 pts).
Extra Armour add +1 to ramshakkle - costs 5 pts for Trukks, Buggies, Kanz, Looted Wagons; 10 pts for Deff Dreads; 15 pts for Battlewagons and 20 pts for Naughts.
Grot Riggers cost 3 pts for Kanz and Buggies, 5 pts for Trukks, Looted Wagons and Deff Dreads; 10 pts for Battlewagons and Naughts.
'Ard case - Free.
Skorcha missiles are Large Blast and cost 15 pts per missile.
Screamin' Descent result of 10-12 Dakka-Dakka-Boom! specifically states that the plane's weapons ignore LOS restrictions for this shooting attack and the shots are resolved as if they're coming from the center of the target model.
LOW
Spoiler:
Ghazghkull Traka The Beast Of Armageddon Must issue and accept challenges hate this but it's a rule even for regular warlords from Ghaz supplement. He's supposed to have it too Gets Fear, Effigy (fearless for units within 6"), Units within 12" containing at least one model with 'ere We Go get Stubborn and +1 LD Adamantite Scull: Ghazghkull gets +1 to his Invulnerable save (resulting in 4++), Adamantium Will and inflicts d3 HOW hits that are ap2, concussive has HOW that is ap2, Concussive Ghazghkull and any model wearing Megaarmour in his squad are Relentless instead of SNP Gets a twin-linked bigshoota
Once per game while calling WAAAAAGH, Ghazghkull grands all affected models Crusader. If he can call WAAAAGH! multiple times, for example, as a bonus from special detachment, Crusader can still be granted only once - in this case you specify when you use Crusader.
Looses his special ability to become 2++.
Favorite enemy: Preferred Enemy (Comissar Yarikk). If Yarikk is slain in a duel with Ghazghkull for the first time in current game, instead of rolling on Iron Will (3+ to resurrect) Yarikk is placed in ongoing reserves. This does not grant any VP or count as completed missions like Slay The Warlord, Assasinate, etc.
HQ:
Spoiler:
Warboss can take a Snazzgun for 5 pts or a master-crafted Snazzgun for 8 pts. Warboss in Mega Armor can exchange tl-shoota for a Snazzgun for 2 pts or a master-crafted Snazzgun for 5 pts.
Mad Dok Grotsnik - 40 mm base. Gets Rage (only for himself), looses Rampage. Allows to take one slotless Painboy in detachment. Comes stock with 3 Grot Orderlies (the ones who 'saved' him).
Painboss costs 60 pts. 32 mm base. Comes stock with one Grot Orderly. Has access to 'eavy armor and Cybork body (CB costs 5 pts for Doks). May replace a choppa with a combi-weapon for standard price. Allows to take one slotless Painboy per every Painboss in detachment.
Big Mek 32 mm base, 40 mm when with SAG or Megaamour. allows to take one slotless Mek per every Big Mek in detachment.
SAG costs 30 pts. The roll of 1-1 gives 1 VP to a controling player cause it's hilarious . Doesn't give VP, Kingslayer or Slay The Warlord to your opponent when removed from play as a result of rolling 1-1.
Tellyport Blasta Costs 15 pts, Range increased to 18", Gets Hot! Can be fired in addition to any other weapon
Kustom Mega Blasta and Kustom Mega Slugga are Master-Crafted for a Big Mek. Big Mek's Mega armor comes with a master-crafted Kustom Mega Blasta which he can exchange for a master-crafted Snazzgun.
Can take Snazzgun for 5 pts or a master-crafted Snazzgun for 8 pts
Can take Burna for 10 pts
Wierdboy 32 mm base, has access to 'eavy armor and may replace his force Stave with a Force Axe.
'Eadbanger - Can't be reallocated with a look out, sir!
Da Jump - no snapshots on a roll of double.
Power vomit - s7 ap-, rending, 1 Warpcharge.
Painboy - character akin to a slotless mek. Boy statline, Dok's tools - costs 30 pts.
Mek - Killsaw costs 20 pts
Badrukk and Zaggy moved to Elites and FA respectively.
Take note that slotless meks are no longer one per indep but are one per big mek. And you'd generally not want to eat challenges with a painboy. So, it's an intended side-nerf of cheap challenge eaters. If you want some, get a big mek. But i think, big meks are quite appealing now as 3-d or 4-thHQ in most lists
Troops:
Spoiler:
Boyz can take a Big Choppa per every 10 boyz in the squad (instead of a bigshoota or rokkit launcha)
Grots - a runtherd gets a Squig houd for free. Can replace his Grabba Stikk with a Grot Prod for free
Elites:
Spoiler:
Burna Boyz cost 15 ppm
Nobz cost 16 ppm 32 mm base
Banner costs 10 pts
If the squad consists of at least 5 nobz, can choose one of the following:
Cybork Slashas - the whole squad can perform a Scout Move (but not outflank), gets Cybork bodies, Rending in mellee, Fearless and Bulky for 5 ppm, can't take any special wargear and equipment, can't ride a transport.
'Ard nob wrekkaz - the whole squad has 'eavy armor and big choppas for 5 ppm, can't take bikes and PK Da Speed Freakz - the whole squad takes warbikes and gets Move through cover for 25 ppm
Tankbustas cost 16 ppm Can take tankhammers for free
Bomb Squigs are s8 ap3, ignore cover and can work vs any target other than a flyer (that's up in the air) or swooping FMC
Kaptin Badrukk costs 85 pts 32 mm base
Character - not IC. Has a Bosspole. Drops to ld8.
Does not take up a slot if joins Flash Gitz
He and a unit of Flah Gitz he joins get Preferred Enemy
Flash Gitz - Elite finally! Cost 22 ppm 32 mm base
Roll for AP before choosing a target Are equipped with 'eavy armor instead of bosspoles. Can purchase bosspoles for 5 pts.
Snikrot da Green Ghost costs 70 pts. 32 mm base
Only snapshots allowed against his squad the turn they deploy or arrive from reserves. No longer gives shrowded to the squad the turn they arrive. When Snikrot is the only model in his squad, gains Fleet, Stealth and Shrowded.
Kommandoes cost 9 ppm
Heavy Support
Spoiler:
Walker Skwadron :
0-1 Naut, 0-3 Deff Dreads, 0-6 Killa Kanz
Naughts, Deff Dreads and Kanz - all get Ramshakkle 6+.
Kanz cost 40 pts, can purchase Extra armour for 5 pts
Deff Dreads can purchase Extra armour for 10 pts and Stikkbomb Chukkas for 15 pts
Gorkanaut goes down to 4 HP, looses Rampage, Costs 165 pts
Can purchase Extra armour for 15 pts and Stikkbomb Chukkas for 15 pts
Can purchase: Da Furry of Gork (or possibly Mork) - Gives Rampage for the whole squadron while the Gorkanaught is still...ehm...alive, costs 50 pts.
Morkanaut goes down to 4 HP, Costs 165 pts
Can purchase Extra armour for 15 pts and Stikkbomb Chukkas for 15 pts
Eh, seemed like a good idea until i realised how screwed squadron rules are for vehicles with different AV. New rule ideas incoming.
Naughts, Deff Dreads and Kanz - all get Ramshakkle 6+.
Kanz cost 35 pts, can purchase Extra armour for 5 pts and Grot Riggers for 3 pts.
Kanz auto-pass Cowardly grots when within 6" of a Naught or Stompa.
Deff Dreads can purchase Extra armour for 10 pts, Grot Riggers for 5 pts and Stikkbomb Chukkas for 15 pts
Can be taken in squadrons of 1-3.
Naughts become Superheavies but can still only move 6" in the movement phase.
Can purchase Extra armour for 20 pts, Grot riggers for 10 pts, Stikkbomb chukkas for 15 pts.
Stomps recieve a -1 modifier on the stomp table and Catastrophic Damage table is always a 1 - Explosion.
Gorkanaught costs 255 pts, Morkanaught costs 240 pts.
Lobbas become 21 pts base
Zzap guns - when the 2d6 result on a str roll is 11+, the hits are auto-penetrates.
Bubblechukkas get Ignore Cover and cost 24 pts. They need a pt drop and even with ignore cover they're strictly an anti-infantry weapon that's still not very reliable due to random str and ap. They need to have something over lobbas. Large blast and ignore cover could outweigh multi-barrage and 48 range in some cases
Smasha guns get Lance special rule.
Lootas cost 6 pts base, come stock with a slugga + choppa, loose deffguns. Can exchange slugga for:
Shoota for 1 pts
Bolter for 1 pts
Stormbolter for 2 pts
Heavy Stubber for 2 pts
Sniper Rifle for 2 pts
Heavy Bolter for 7 pts
Autocannon for 7 pts
Missile Launcher for 11 pts that come stock with Flak Missiles (like it should)
Lazcannon for 15 pts
The upgrade to mek costs 9 pts.
Gits moved to Elites
Fast Attack
Spoiler:
Deffkoptas go up to 35 pts.
Able to make one Kopta per squad a character - Mek-Kopta for 5 pts (same stats - just character). Mek-Kopta can purchase a bosspole for 5 pts and a Killsaw for 20 pts.
Saws cost 15 pts, KMB are a free swap, Bombs cost 5 ppm and get Pinning.
Buggies get Ramshakkle 6+
Can exchange rokkits for a skorcha without need to be upgraded to Trakks for 5 pts
Can be upgraded to Trakk for 5 pts
Can get Extra armour for 5 pts and Grot riggers for 3 pts
Dakkajet costs 90 pts
Can purchase Red Paint Job for 10 pts
Burna Bomber costs 90 pts
Skorcha missiles are Large Blast and cost 15 pts per bomb
Can purchase Red Paint Job for 15 pts
Blitza Bomber costs 110 pts
Can purchase Red Paint Job for 15 pts
Screamin' Descent result of 10-12 Dakka-Dakka-Boom! fixed in Warger section
Boss Zagstruk Character - not IC. Does not take a FA slot if joins stormboyz. 32 mm base.
Zagstruk and his unit scatter only d6 instead of 2d6 when they deepstrike. They can use their rokkit packs both in movement and assault phase. Furthermore, if the unit is required to use Mob Rule while Zagstruk is still alive, they autopass it getting the result Breaking Heads.
He still has Cybork body that's back to 5++ now
Other stuff coming soon. Make me know what you think about the changes?
A unit of Tankbustas may upgrade their Rokkit Launchas for Rokkit Barrages at 2 pts/model. To declare a Rokkit Barrage, select a single Ork model as the firing point. The attack is Range 24, S8/AP3, Heavy X/Blast/Barrage, where X is the number of Tankbustas in the unit divided by 3. (For example, in a unit of 10 Tankbustas, the attack is Heavy 3/Blast/Barrage). This prevents shooting normally for the turn.
Giving Kommando Nobz special wargear would rock too.
Back in Codx: Armageddon, the Kult of Speed got a lot of toys too. I wonder what it would be like to have AV 12 one-shot forcefields for your vehicles as a revival of the old forcefield idea. Or Megablastas having Blast again...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I like the Grabbin' Klaw rule by the way! Other than 10-pt Burnaboyz (I disagree with a fair bit of the Eldarification of 4th Orks), most stuff seems alright.
I would probably make the Chukka a S3 AP6 large blast though, and allow Buggies/Dreads to take them
A unit of Tankbustas may upgrade their Rokkit Launchas for Rokkit Barrages at 2 pts/model. To declare a Rokkit Barrage, select a single Ork model as the firing point. The attack is Range 24, S8/AP3, Heavy X/Blast/Barrage, where X is the number of Tankbustas in the unit divided by 3. (For example, in a unit of 10 Tankbustas, the attack is Heavy 3/Blast/Barrage). This prevents shooting normally for the turn.
Giving Kommando Nobz special wargear would rock too.
Back in Codx: Armageddon, the Kult of Speed got a lot of toys too. I wonder what it would be like to have AV 12 one-shot forcefields for your vehicles as a revival of the old forcefield idea. Or Megablastas having Blast again...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I like the Grabbin' Klaw rule by the way! Other than 10-pt Burnaboyz (I disagree with a fair bit of the Eldarification of 4th Orks), most stuff seems alright.
I would probably make the Chukka a S3 AP6 large blast though, and allow Buggies/Dreads to take them
What do you think is the correct price for burnaboyz without ap3? - changed to 12 ppm for now. And what do you think about nobz and flashgitz? What about Snikrot and Badrukk?
I missed the fact that you made the Burna a regular flamethrower and removed the cutting torch. It was one of the few things unique about them alas.
I'm not sure how to go about working on Burnas tbh. I remember in 3rd that the Power Weapon mode had the early version of Armourbane so you could also slice open vehicles. I feel Burnas should be 20 pts, 4+ armor which increases to 3+ vs Flame-based attacks (Flamers/Pyromancy/etc). Their tactical niche is sort of "ehh" otherwise.
80 pts is far more reasonable for the Kaptin. Still not a great sell (Moar Meganobz) but you won't be laughed off the battle.
MagicJuggler wrote: I missed the fact that you made the Burna a regular flamethrower and removed the cutting torch. It was one of the few things unique about them alas.
I'm not sure how to go about working on Burnas tbh. I remember in 3rd that the Power Weapon mode had the early version of Armourbane so you could also slice open vehicles. I feel Burnas should be 20 pts, 4+ armor which increases to 3+ vs Flame-based attacks (Flamers/Pyromancy/etc). Their tactical niche is sort of "ehh" otherwise.
80 pts is far more reasonable for the Kaptin. Still not a great sell (Moar Meganobz) but you won't be laughed off the battle.
I've given him preferred enemy. And i'd tweak the formation with him and 2 squads of Gitz. The master crafted bonus is a pain to roll off. I think, the formation should allow them to reroll an ap dice. And that's it. Allready made them more expensive, but more durable with 'eavy armor. Besides, the - roll ap before choosing a target is what they've always needed to become more viable.
I really like most of the changes you made, especially regarding the differentiation between Painbosses and Painboyz.
There are however, a few quibbles I have regarding some of the other changes. Why the increase from 13 ppm for tankbustas to 16? I felt that 13 was the sweet spot given that rokkit launchas are only a 5 point upgrade now (meaning with a boy statline it would be 11 now) and I think 2 points per man for tank hunter seems about appropriate. While we no longer have to deal with the old version of Glory Hogs, they are still fragile dakka-platforms. Perhaps maybe 14 ppm at most? Or if you want it to be 16 it would be fitting for them to be included with 'eavy armour base to represent them attaching tank armour to their bodies as trophies.
Also, with regards to the Killchoppa, I feel like it would be a viable choice if it was just AP3 base and kept the previous normal rending and insta-kill rules. This way we get a weapon that can strike at initiative and still ignore the armour of the plethora of 3+ save foes we face against while still having potential utility against 2+ save foes. It certainly gives it a better niche weapon suited for zoomy platforms like a biker warboss.
First and foremost, make mob rule affect fear tests as well as pinning/morale.
Then make it count wounds, not models, which might make it actually useful for squads like nobz and deffkoptas.
Lastly, make it count wounds involved in the same close combat, so that multiple trukk boy squads can bolster each other's mob rule results. This would make assaulting trukk mobs actually useful, instead of a bunch of separate units that will break and run when they inevitably lose combat and fail morale.
Why nerf burnas? I say give them what their fluff says they have and add (S3/4) armorbane to it in melee. Or you can go the screamer route and make it armorbane, AP2, but 1 attack.
I'd love to see painboys treated like meks are now in some way. It would be great to not have to waste a HQ slot on giving one squad FNP. That being said, all other armies thus far have gotten a similar treatment (like the blood angel chalice bearer), so I don't expect to see it happen.
Yep, a lot of stuff can be done to mob rule. Especially with fear and alike. I know, it's annoying that orkses are currently the only army that's really affected by fear but i don't want to totally invalidate this rule. Maybe just give +1 ld for fear tests if there's at least one model with 'ere we go? I'd not want to make it more complicated than it is now - counting of all involved models and such cause they're still separate squads with separate nob bosses.
Tankbustas - i feel they're too good for 13 pts. Tankhunter meltabombs are not a joke. Rokkits are great too. Their only problem is their fragility but that's solved pretty easilly - especially with FW. Besides, i've made bomb squigs straight s8 ap3 ignore cover - can target anything. That's a huge improvement! What do you think about it?
On the second thought about a painboss, i think i'll lower his cost to 65 with one mandatory grot orderly. Just don't want to make footsloggas less viable compared to buffed up mech guyz with ramshakkle. What do you think about Ramshakkle to most our vehicles anywayz?
Burnas...that can be interesting to give them armorbane back. However, with current tankbustas and meltabombs, i feel the role will get confused. Or we'll simply get too much mellee anti-armor all around. PK, meltabombs, saws and now armorbane flamers. I do like the idea of making them able to perform a 1 attack ap2 strike. But without armorbane. Even though it contradicts fluff a bit, but we should think about our enemies too!
There's a widespread idea of burna boyz getting able to use a torrent version of their flamers. But to not make it OTT, it should be a lower str torrent flamer. Like s2 ap6 Gets Hot! to make it more situational and risky than a normal one but useful nonetheless. On the other hand, we allready have tons of anti-infantry.
Can stick to str5 ap2, unwieldy, 1 attack but not prevent the flamer shots. This way, with a cost of 13-15 ppm they will be somewhat fine.
I'm not sure about ap3 choppa. But i guess, ID and rending on a 5-6 would be too powerful. What others think about an ap3 killchoppa that rends and id on a 6? Would it need a price increase?
Added Walker skwadrons, Grotsnik and changed nobs a bit. I do want to see footslogging nobz from time to time. Think that Cybork nobz can be this footslogging version.
I am not a fan of the price and HP change on the orkanauts. The 5 HPs make them feel like more than just a walker landraider. With this in mind they need a price reduction as they are with 5 HPs as they still blow up too often to ap 1 and 2. As a squadron they would have more survivability and the 1 less HP wouldn't matter so much but that would be if you took the squadron.
On their own they need that 5th HP in addition to a little extra customizability.
The rampage upgrade would be cool for the gorkanaut but depending on your squad size might just be overkill or useless. For example how often would a full size squadron (10 models) get the special rule. Their shooting phase alone would take most units under 10 models. If you ran it as 1 Gork 1 dread and 2-3 kans then this rule would be a huge benefit and almost wipe whatever they hit.
I want to know what kind of changes you would make to the orkanauts if the squadron rule wasn't taken into account?
I'd make it a superheavy akin to knights and increase it's price. Or make it plain cheaper. Cause currently, the only real place the walkers can do something is dreadmob. And even than, they're too fragile and slow. Kanz and Naughts are overpriced. There's a problem with huge expensive vehicles. They blow up or get immobilized. Lots of stuff plain ignores their armor. Vehicle damage table becomes more problematic the more your vehicle costs.
If a melta blows up a buggie - no big deal. If it blows up a deff dread - well, it's what melta's designed for after all. But when it blows up an almost 300 pt vehicle (morkanaught with a KFF, for example), you start questioning yourself if your huge expensive vehicle is really worth the points if it gets blown up every now and than by stuff that costs WAY less than it.
What do you think about walkers? How would you change them, if you would ofc.
Definitely price reduction on the orkanauts. and this has been brought up so many times already but they really should have the invincible behemoth special rule...without being a superheavy though. this would protect them from easy explosions and getting immobilized. An immobile ork walker is just as bad as a destroyed one. Even having 6 guns doesn't make up for the immobilized result as we hit on 5's. Kans are too pricey as well. Yes they made the upgrades cheaper but they nerfed the klaw so bad that they came out worse.
With the gorkanaut maybe have some formation to buff WS or an upgrade somehow. A Banner buff similar to the Morkanauts KFF that gives units within X +1 WS. I play against daemons alot and the bloodthirster ruins my day with WS 10. It seems i can't ever hit on 5's.
The Bomb Squig change was a nice touch. I'll admit that the buff with meltabombs rather than armourbane krak grenades should come with a cost increase, but if they are in the 16 point range, being more expensive than a marine, I feel they should really come with 'eavy armour base, if only so they can survive against explodes! results from their ride being blown up.
Also regarding Grotsnik, I felt his points cost was already too high from where he originally started and I consider it to be still too prohibitive even if he gets rage, given that he lost rampage in return. For him to remain at his points cost I feel he should either let one Ork infantry unit of your choice get cybork bodies for free or give him back his old ability to give out CB to any Ork infantry model in the army for 5 points a pop.
With regards to the Mork/Gorkanauts, I have to agree with mhalko1 and say that giving them Invincible Behemoth or buffing their main guns a bit would go a long way to making them viable compared to the plethora of MC's out in the meta nowadays. Making the KMK on the Morkanaut a large blast or having the Gorkanaut's gun become twin-linked or rending would make it so they were less of a glorified Mek Gun-esque platform on a slow walker body.
Any ideas of what you would do with Boss Zagstruk? Personally I'd place him into the Fast-Attack slot like Snikrot is in the elite slot and make it so he didn't take a FOC slot so long as you take a unit of stormboyz. Then change it so his Vulcha Klaws are a permanent pair of Power Klaws that gives him a S8 AP2 HoW which does D3 hits rather than 1 when using his jump pack move for an assault. Bring him back up to Ld9 and the old rule he had regarding summary execution and he'd provide a solid core for the very vulnerable stormboyz units. This would bring his cost back up to his old price in the 4th ed. dex but its well worth it given that the pretty much has no utility as an HQ choice in the dex short of providing the Bellowing Tyrant Warlord trait which you can just get through Warboss Grukk.
Well, i just wanted to incorporate the naught into a walker squadron. Anywayz, how much do you think it would cost for an invincible behemoth naught? Don't you like Rampage for the squadron idea?
As for tankbustas, well, they do punch way above their point cost currently. Like lobbas (will cover them lately). That comes from my gaming experience. Tankbustas are simply good al around as an offensive unit. They can shoot tankhunter rokkits, they can obliterate pretty much any vehicle or mc in mellee with melta bombs, they have a free VP if they destroy a tank first - and it's generally not so hard to acomplish. I'm sure that they ARE undercosted currently. I hink that free hammers and much better bomb squigs can easilly justify their new price.
So, a squad of 10 with 3 bomb squigs would cost 175 pts now. Up from 145 of their codex incarnation. Not a huge difference. Besides, squigs are now way better. I think the price tag of 16 ppm is right for them. Now 16 ppm codex burnas are nowhere near right.
BTW, what do you think about Burnas and Nobz with proposed changes now?
Grotsnik - well, first of all, his rampage ability was only useful on small elite units (that imo don't need it allready - nobz, meganobz). The price tag is considered too high by most ork players comparing him to a regular painboss. Even though, i do belive that he's costed somewhat right due to being an extra invaluable pk, unique fearless which we can get only with a BBP from another detachment, and almost-boss statline.
As for now, take into consideration that he got: 3 oilers, Rage over Rampage - means 1 more s9 ap2 attack, 5++ over useless 6+++. He opens up a slotless painboy. It's actually quite some buff and not a nerf. And regular painbosses went up 15 pts. I'm starting to think that 160 is actually a bit too low
Zagstruk will be fast attack akin to Snikrot and Badrukk. Regarding his changes, i think there are a few ways. Either return his ability to DS + Charge - but withthe return of the old WAAAGH! it'd be an almost guaranteed charge the turn they arrive if they don't mishap which is too good even if he'd cost around 100 pt. I'd make him actually buff his squad somehow.
Currently i run stormboyz in almost every list cause they're good with footsloggas. I run a squad of ~10 with pk, bp nob and they pay off most of the time. But they are effective only due to their small squad (for ork standards). I can hide behind terrain or a truck and threaten the enemy with an enormous charge reach on WAAAGH!
I've run a special formation with Zaggy and it was quite underwhelming. Yes, they deepstrike and are pretty fast. But they're a bunch of 9 pt boyz! And HOW is pretty much useless for them if you want to play more conservatively and not drop at your enemy's squad ready to charge with what remains - if anything does really.
I think that he could give straight buffs for his squad. Like +d6 movement. Or some USR. Could make them able to use JP both in movement and in assault like ravenguard CT. Don't know yet. Summary execution can be fine too.
And the change to DLS is exactly cause it IS the best artifact. In fact, it's so good, it surpasses everything else. It needs some toning down.
I think the changes to Nobz are appropriate, the upgrade options almost feel like an interesting twist on the doctrines that oomie veterans which is a nice touch. Personally it's always been the lack of CC weapon variety that has been my issue with Ork CC units since its typically just a toss-up between PK or BC. Perhaps include a rokkit pack option for 3-4ppm? Ever since DoW2 Retribution's Storm Nobz upgrade option I've been fascinated with the idea of super-speedy jump-pack nobz. It would give a less resilient but speedy alternative to the much more expensive Biker Nobz for lower point games.
Burna Boyz are in a weird position. As Orks we don't exactly lack for anti-infantry but at the same time the majority of our anti-infantry comes in the form of mass dakka or piles of CC attacks. They provide a very niche role (similar to Burna-Bommers) of eliminating light to medium infantry dug into cover that either has some form of cover-boosting gear (camo cloaks, etc.) or has defensive grenades and higher initiative that can neuter our attempts to overwhelm them in CC. I agree with you not gaining armourbane on their attacks since it confuses their role too much, but I do think that they should have a combined flamer option like others have mentioned that increases in strength depending on how many burnas are in the unit. Personally, I would make it so that they could combine their flamer templates to create this:
Range: Template S: X+4 AP: 4 , Special Rules: Torrent, Assault X
X is the number of every 5 burna boyz in the unit that is firing as part of this shooting attack. If the entire unit chooses to fire this way they may not overwatch the following turn.
This way it maxes out at S7 which requires both a heft points investment in a full burna boy squad which pretty much requires a transport of some kind (non-dedicated if you want 3 shots of S7 AP4 torrent). And I capped it at AP4 since there's no reason for it to become the new baleflamer.
Regarding Grotsnik, I agree that his Rampage rule was fairly limited given the composition of most Ork armies but regardless of how limited its utility was it still was something he brought to the table as a potential force multiplier. The slot he unlocks for an extra Painboy, while certainly nice, doesn't change the fact that you still have to pay for the extra Painboy and Painbosses are much cheaper for that option. As an extra PK and Fearless provider he's not bad, but at 160 points you could easily have both Warboss and a Painboss, and the Warboss brings arguably more utility with the inclusion of the WAAAGH! rule and S10 PK attacks rather than S8-9. To justify his current points cost IMO, either allow his Rage special rule to pass on to the rest of his unit or provide the CB option to other units as I've previously mentioned. Also, while grot orderlies are nice, I don't see them as that big of a bonus, at least not one close enough to overlook the fact that he costs 160 points.
With regards to the invincible behemoth on morkanaut and gorkanaut I believe it should be incorporated at 0-5 points. Those walkers are severely overcosted for their use and effectiveness. 310 for a fully upgraded morkanaut that blows up on 1 lucky melta shot (this has happen way too many times to me for it to be argued). So factor in the current need for a price reduction and add IB it should come back to about the same. The wraith knight is 300 as a gargantuan with 6 wounds and possible D weaponry. IB would help and against them in particular anything but a 6 they have a chance of surviving.
Now on to Zagstruk. This might upset people a bit but I fully believe Zagstruk isn't meant to be taken in normal games of 40k. I'm sorry but it's true. However his use triples in a game with a planetstrike mission. Take his formation with 3 full squads. They all deepstrike and only scatter 1 d6. because of this planetstrike also let's you charge when you arrive from deepstrike if you can. If they come in on a turn you intend to waagh! Then they can run 2d6 and then charge another 2d6. 3 units of 30 boys doing this can wipe 3 units on the turn they come in. Unfortunately the way he is currently he isn't too helpful in a regular mission. :/
Move Lootas back into Elite, give them access to Git Findaz
Have Orkimedes start work on some kind of S9+ weapon with whatever AP (i don't care) and make it cheap enough to equip some kind of unit with it. how about giving Gretchin squads access to basic artillery, not mek gunz, but the old ones like Zzap and Kannon and Lobbaz? Make taking a gretchin squad worth it besides as a Tax.
To be honest, i think that Grotsnik is allready worth his points for a full 30-strong squad even in regular games of 1500+ where you go for 2-d detachment. He feels a bit overpriced, yes. But making him cost cheaper is not really a good idea cause he'd otherwise be an auto-include instead of a painboss that i've allready made more expensive!
I think that within the context of the new changes, he is good even for 160 pts. Want to go cheap fnp without other bonuses? Fine - pay 65 pts for a painboss. Want fearless, extra PK and more durable Character in there? Here you go, Mr. Grotsnik with his 6(!) s9 ap2 ws5 attacks on the charge with t5, 3 wounds, 4+ 5++ and a bunch of grot orderlies. His 160 price tag is actually a steal.
4+ fnp or better? Would it be fun for our opponent to face another decurion in face of orks?
Stormnobz are an interesting idea. But wouldn't they compete with regular stormboyz and trucknobz? Don't think that 3-4 pt for rokkit packs is fair for 16 pt nobz as it's allready a 3 pt upgrade for regular boyz.
BTW, what do you think about nob wrekkaz and cybork nobz?
About lootas. I don't think that lootas belong to elites at all. They used to when the were not an AC platform. Back in the day, they used to actually loot some stuff and use it - like plasma guns, bolters and even sniper rifles. Now they simply don't match fluff. Or at least they don't match their name.
Won't lie - i'm not a fan of lootas and even since 5-th i've tried to play without them, even though they were considered close to mandatory in every ork list. That's only because of this contradiction. Current lootas are not lootas. They're deffgunnaz. That's it. If i'm gona change lootas - they'd be renamed to be deffgunnaz. OR they could get access to more weapons. Like devastators. Yep, why not simply give them access to heavy bolters, AC, Rokkit launchers and lazcannons. What do you think? It might be a problem from a modelling perspective, however.
Anyone else really hate mob rule? Its not just that you lose Orks, thats not the problem - its the fact that you roll so many dice for an effect that is either extremely minor or extremely major, leading to a lot of tedium and a lot of swingy results.
Say a unit takes 25% casualties from shooting. You roll 2d6 and fail leadership. You roll 1d6 on the chart, and then re-roll it because you got something crappy. Then you roll 1d6, and then that many d6's wounding on 4+. Then you roll 6+ saves and then often a 5+ FNP.
Thats far too many dice! And the result is either a loss of a negligible amount of boyz or the entire unit is completely fethed.
What about something like this - if they fail a morale test, they take wounds equal to the amount the failed the test by, and then pass the test?
It changes it from "lol randum gak happens every turn" to "Orks are still fearless but beat themselves up to get it", and it takes way less dice - roll 2d6, take armour and FNP, test is passed. You could even give the hits AP6 (like choppas) so that in boyz mobs you don't bother with that roll, but MegaNobz etc still get the benefit as they should
Edit:
Regarding deff dreads, haven't used them in 7th but last edition, even against relatively nice armies they just die en route to the target, and when they get there, they swing at I2 and die before they get to attack! The skorchas were by far the best asset on the deff dread, and thats just sad.
It would take far too many sweeping rule changes to 'fix' melee walkers as a whole, so perhaps just make them tougher and cheaper - the 5++ rolling scrap pile rule from DM and a steep points decrease would be a good start. Then maybe up their attacks and make the CCW add ons *way* cheaper, and finally allow them in squads and as a slot which is not filled with all our best gak - ie like the dread mob troop options. They'd be a bit like boyz then - most die on the way, but the few that actually get there do so much damage.
Like honestly, if they were 60pts, 1-5 per unit and troops w/ a big mek would people still be complaining that they suck? Only one has to make it to earn back the points and I think thats the mentality the Ork codex should live by!
I've had similar thoughts about lootas not being lootas.
I think that deffguns should be added to mek guns as a 5pt upgrade over the kannon.
What is currently lootas would be 9pts/model, and would come with kannons instead of deffguns. They can then replace them with any upgrade for the mek guns, other than lobbas and trakor kannons, for the normal prices.
The actual, fluffy, lootas would be 35pts for a mob of 5 boys. They can then take up to 10 more for 6pts/model. They can take any upgrade a normal boys mob can, except that they get meks instead of a nob. When they kill a unit in close combat they can steal D3 weapons from them (the unit can, not D3 weapons each).
Good ideas. Personally I think Killa Kanz should be 30 points at most. And all you need to do to the nauts is change their unit type to Super Heavy Walker, Assault Vehicle.
Imagine the house keeping issues with "Lootas" when they can steal D3 weapons though. Wait did they have a lascannon and 3 flamers or did they have just hte 3 flamers or.... It would become a pain in the butt, and as far as WYSIWYG it would completely throw it off.
Eh, there's a problem with kanz, dreads, naughts and squadron rules. As i get it right, the pens are resolved against the closest vehicle all at once! So, it means that if we have a squadron of 1 kan and 1 naught, a bunch of s6 shots resolved against a kan can penetrate a naught. Or am i wrong?
Ghazkuul wrote: Imagine the house keeping issues with "Lootas" when they can steal D3 weapons though. Wait did they have a lascannon and 3 flamers or did they have just hte 3 flamers or.... It would become a pain in the butt, and as far as WYSIWYG it would completely throw it off.
what if instead of a variety of looted weapons, they get d3 "kustomized skrap" tokens that they can use to upgrade their stock weapon +1S -1AP. Each model may only have a max of 2 tokens.
Ghazkuul wrote: Imagine the house keeping issues with "Lootas" when they can steal D3 weapons though. Wait did they have a lascannon and 3 flamers or did they have just hte 3 flamers or.... It would become a pain in the butt, and as far as WYSIWYG it would completely throw it off.
Been toying with clan rules that could work here. Bad Moonz and Deathskullz share a "shiny gubbins" chart. Bad Moons buy rolls on the chart at the start of the game, Deathskullz get them whenever a unit dies within 6" or if they interact with a wrecked vehicle or some such.
Still working on the actual contents of the chart but the basic idea is small buffs to guns and armour
koooaei wrote: Eh, there's a problem with kanz, dreads, naughts and squadron rules. As i get it right, the pens are resolved against the closest vehicle all at once! So, it means that if we have a squadron of 1 kan and 1 naught, a bunch of s6 shots resolved against a kan can penetrate a naught. Or am i wrong?
If thats true I absolutely refuse to play it that way
Ghazkuul wrote: Imagine the house keeping issues with "Lootas" when they can steal D3 weapons though. Wait did they have a lascannon and 3 flamers or did they have just hte 3 flamers or.... It would become a pain in the butt, and as far as WYSIWYG it would completely throw it off.
Been toying with clan rules that could work here. Bad Moonz and Deathskullz share a "shiny gubbins" chart. Bad Moons buy rolls on the chart at the start of the game, Deathskullz get them whenever a unit dies within 6" or if they interact with a wrecked vehicle or some such.
Would this be to single models, or the entire unit?
Changed walkers. Had to get rid of different squadrons. put naughts somewhere in between the superheavies and large vehicles. They've recieved a huge durability boost and nerfed stomps. How much do you think should they cost?
Also, changed Snikrot a bit
Can't comment on the Naughts as I don't understand superheavies at all, but do like the changes to Dreads/Kans (especially 35pt Kans, 50 is far too much!) except that they really, truly do need a way to be taken outside of heavy support. Also don't know if extra armour is worth it, as its not in the codex and cbf reading the brblol
Snapshots is a great improvement for Snikrot Kommandos, prevents them just getting flamered. Highly approve!
The Shiny Gubbins table, like everything else I'm working on, is suppost to be largely good and bad at the same time rather than straight buffs or debuffs. Here's what I have in mind, though I've altered it a bit as some of the above ideas are pretty neat. The main issues there are that it should apply to any unit, not just boyz units, ie if Lootas get "Big shootas become snazzguns" its a bit of a problem
Keep in mind that no effect can stack with itself, you re-roll any effect you already have. Bad Moonz get one free upgrade, and can buy up to two more at 1pt/per model for units containing boyz (boyz, tankbustas etc), 2pt if it is meks (ie, Lootas, burnas etc), and 3pt for Nobz
1. Shiny Stuff: The boyz have squandered their wealth on useless bling. You may add or subtract one from another Shiny Gubbins roll made at the same time or after this one, but has no effect on its own.
2. Speshul Ammo: The weapon gains Rending, but Gets Hot! [that is better than my original idea]
3. Gitfindas: The unit gains +1 BS if it does not move. Units with built in Gitfindas (Flash Gitz, Warlord Trait) add 6" to their weapon range.
4. More Dakka: The unit's shooting weapons become the Heavy type, but they increase their shots fired by 1. If already heavy, they may not fire snap shots if moved.
5. 'Eavy Armour: The unit gains 'eavy armour. If the units armour save is already a 4+ or better, it adds +1 to its save but gains Slow and Purposeful. If the unit already has a 2+ armour save then re-roll this result.
6. Spiky Bits: Festooning their armour with spikes is both fashionable and ded killy. The model gains Hammer of Wrath, or if it has it already, adds +1 to the strength of its hammer of wrath attacks. Any to-hit roll in melee against a unit with Spiky Bits that rolls a 1 will cause a S2 AP- hit on the attacker.
Something like this. Could also play around with the obscure special rules like concussive etc but then I'd have to read the brb to see what they were
Edit: What about grabbing klaw, wrecking ball etc for walkers? Could be a good laugh
I've changed it to become +1 to rammshakkle. It's in the list of Wargear and equipment changes.
Superheavy means it has an invincible behemoth special rule - means it only looses HP and discards any results from vehicle damage table. But the Explodes! result deals d3 HP. It can fire it's weapons at different targets, can perform d3 stomps - small blasts that on a roll of 2-5 are s6 ap4 and on a roll of a 6 simply remove the enemy from play. They move 12" and get Move through Cover, Fear and Concussive. When they're destroyed, they explode - a massive explosion with random results varying from s5 or s4 to S: D.
I feel like I've arrived late to this. Even so, i've updated your original post with my thoughts in red. If there's anything I've not included, then it's probably because either I haven't gotten around to it, or I agree with you:
The controlling player allocates wounds himself with the following restrictions:
Breaking Heads - The wounds must be allocated to models closest to the character (but not other characters). If there are multiple characters, can allocate wounds to models closest to any of the characters
Squabble - Can't allocate wounds to characters.
Wargear, Equipment, Vehicle Equipment, Gifts
Spoiler:
Burna - straight up flamer, no secondary mellee capabilities. Costs 5 pts. Able to make one s5 ap2 unwieldy attack in mellee. Does not prevent from shooting a flamer. Costs 10 pts. I'm not sure of what the exact rule is called, but there are some models (like the helldrake) who's flamer shoots at a further range than the standard flamer. I think that it would be REALLY good to include this as an upgrade, for another 5 or 10 points each. It would give the idea that Orks really don't have control over the fire.
Da Lukky Stikk - Allows to reroll only till the first fail per turn. Counts as a bosspole too. And increases leadership by +1
Warboss Gazbag's Blitzbike adds Skilled Rider and allows a unit of Bikes to be taken as troops choice (or for Bikes to be made into a Troops choice. It does make sense, as Eldar have their jetbikes as troop choices. It does make fluffy sense IMO.
Red Paint Job - Adds +2" to all movement methods. 5 points for Vehicles.
10 points Fliers with the added bonus of +1 Jink.
15 points for any unit comprised entirely of Deffkoptas, Bikes, or Stormboys, with the added +1 Jink.
Extra Armour add +1 to ramshakkle - costs 5 pts for Trukks, Buggies, Kanz, Looted Wagons; 10 pts for Deff Dreads; 15 pts for Battlewagons and Naughts.
Ramshakkle - Returns to original rules for Trukks. Battlewagons can purchase it for 10/15 points.
HQ:
Spoiler:
Mad Dok GrotsnikComes stock with 3 Grot Orderlies (the ones who 'saved' him)I don't actually see any issues with the current Mad Doc. I wouldn't really want to change him as it gives a nice "Last Stand" feel to him. The three grots are a nice nod to the fluff though.
Big Mek ... Tellyport Blasta Costs 15 pts, Range increased to 18", Gets Hot! On the roll of a 1 or 2, the weapon instantly teleports the Big Mek and his unit into combat, as though they have charged that turn.
If a Big Mek is your Warlord, then all vehicles in your army may be upgraded to include any 1 Mek Gun from the Heavy Support list.
-- Yes, I'm being forward about this one, I think it would be brilliant to have Warbuggies, Battlewagons, Trukks and Dakkajets running around with Kustom Mega Kannons. Because why WOULDN'T an ork want to put those awesome guns on something that moves???
Painboy - character akin to a slotless mek. Boy statline, Dok's tools - costs 30 pts.
Troops:
Spoiler:
Boyz can take a Big Choppa per every 10 boyz in the squad (instead of a bigshoota or rokkit launcha). Big Choppas have AP4 and +2 strength.
Elites:
Spoiler:
Burna Boyz cost 15 ppm
Nobz cost 16 ppm 32 mm base
Waaaagh! Banner costs 10 pts
If the squad consists of at least 5 nobz, can choose one of the following:
Cybork Slashas - the whole squad can perform a Scout Move (but not outflank), gets Cybork bodies, Rending in mellee, Fearless and Bulky for 5 ppm, can't take any special wargear and equipment, can't ride a transport.
'Ard nob wrekkaz - the whole squad has 'eavy armor and big choppas for 5 ppm, can't take bikes and PK Da Speed Freakz - the whole squad takes warbikes and gets skilled rider for 25 ppm
Tankbustas cost 16 ppm Can take tankhammers for free
Bomb Squigs are s8 ap3, ignore cover and can work vs any target other than a flyer (that's up in the air) or swooping FMC. The Nob can be upgraded to have Da Big Whacky! for 15 points all Bomb Squigs to gain the Interceptor and Skyfire special rules. (I might be being a bit silly here)
Flash Gitz - Elite finally! Cost 24 ppm 32 mm base
Roll for AP before choosing a target. Are equipped with 'eavy armor instead of bosspoles
I'm pretty sure someone has already mentioned this. But lots more options should be available for Flash Gits, like the ability to take combi-weapons or upgrade to twin-linked. Fluff wise, they have the money to upgrade their awesome weapons, let them.
I don't know if anyone would find this useful at all but I've worked out a way, at least in my local group (this definitely wouldn't work at tournaments unless it was houseruled):
Taking an Ork Warband formation, and rather than rolling on the Ork Warlord table, simply ask your opponent if they're OK with letting you have the first trait rather than rolling for it. Then, you have the ability to Waaagh every turn after the first, and your army is Fearless. It definitely provides a leg up without being completely OP, especially against opponents like Tau and Eldar (and actually makes the army play closer to the fluff than in the rules). Your opponent also has the entire first turn to do as much damage as they can before the green tide comes rolling in (also very fluffy). It's not even modifying the rules at all. Rather, it automatically allows something that would have been left up to chance otherwise but is still possible to happen in a game under the codex rules as they are now.
In fact, if I were going to make an actual codex rules suggestion, I'd modify the Ork Warband formation so that the Warboss always takes Prophet of the Waaagh as a Warlord trait. It'd fix so much that's wrong with the Codex.
Added mek gunz and lootas. What do you think about wargear cost to lootas?
Allowed warboss and Big mek to run around with a snazzgun for 7 pt. Is the point cost fine?
Answering Sletchyfk
Mob rule: May re-roll failed fear tests.
>> Fear is allready a sub-par forgettable special rule. Don't want to completely invalidate it. LD8 against fear and LD10 for boss squad is allready good imo.
Burna - straight up flamer, no secondary mellee capabilities. Costs 5 pts. Able to make one s5 ap2 unwieldy attack in mellee. Does not prevent from shooting a flamer. Costs 10 pts. I'm not sure of what the exact rule is called, but there are some models (like the helldrake) who's flamer shoots at a further range than the standard flamer. I think that it would be REALLY good to include this as an upgrade, for another 5 or 10 points each. It would give the idea that Orks really don't have control over the fire.
>> It's called Torrent. Yep, it might be good. We've discussed it earlier in the thread. It all depends on correct pricing. And it needs intense playtesting.
Da Lukky Stikk - And increases leadership by +1
>> Allready good enough. +1 ld would cost extra pt. Can't give it for free - allready have +1 WS and a bunch of rerolls - that's huge.
Warboss Gazbag's Blitzbike adds Skilled Rider and allows a unit of Bikes to be taken as troops choice (or for Bikes to be made into a Troops choice. It does make sense, as Eldar have their jetbikes as troop choices. It does make fluffy sense IMO.
>> No slot swap since 7-th. And it's right imo. Eldar have their jetbikes as troops cause they're annoying cheezemongers, not cause it's right
Red Paint Job - Adds +2" to all movement methods. 5 points for Vehicles.
10 points Fliers with the added bonus of +1 Jink.
15 points for any unit comprised entirely of Deffkoptas, Bikes, or Stormboys, with the added +1 Jink.
>> +2" movement is plain better than boarding plank which is more expensive. Besides, +1 cover to bikes would result in 2+ cover bikes which will simply invalidate the Blitzbike relic. And cheap 2+ cover which is not unique is a bad thing imo.
Ramshakkle - Returns to original rules for Trukks. Battlewagons can purchase it for 10/15 points.
>> Even though everyone liked the original ramshakkle cause it's fun, think we'll stick to codex one cause it's more practical, easy to resolve and it's previous incarnation would be hazardous - it was 2/3 chance to explode when the vehicle is destroyed. Nowadays, with a hullpoint system, vehicles get glanced to death most of the time. Massed s4 explosions would be very harmful for us. Heck, even if they go back to s3, it's still not something you'd like in a regular game.
Big Mek ... Tellyport Blasta Costs 15 pts, Range increased to 18", Gets Hot! On the roll of a 1 or 2, the weapon instantly teleports the Big Mek and his unit into combat, as though they have charged that turn.
>> Fun thing but it's a potential, yet random, turn one assault or assault from reserves.
If a Big Mek is your Warlord, then all vehicles in your army may be upgraded to include any 1 Mek Gun from the Heavy Support list.
-- Yes, I'm being forward about this one, I think it would be brilliant to have Warbuggies, Battlewagons, Trukks and Dakkajets running around with Kustom Mega Kannons. Because why WOULDN'T an ork want to put those awesome guns on something that moves???
>> Fluffy cool idea. Need to consider it. But needs some limitations or we'd get eldar jetbikes.
Boyz can take a Big Choppa per every 10 boyz in the squad (instead of a bigshoota or rokkit launcha). Big Choppas have AP4 and +2 strength.
>> Big choppas are allready +2s. Don't know about AP4. AP4 +2 str is a power maul. And it costs 15 pts - not 5 pts.
Nobz Da Speed Freakz - the whole squad takes warbikes and gets skilled rider for 25 ppm >> 2+ cover spammable bikes for no extra cost? Don't like it.
Tankbustas Bomb Squigs are s8 ap3, ignore cover and can work vs any target other than a flyer (that's up in the air) or swooping FMC. The Nob can be upgraded to have Da Big Whacky! for 15 points all Bomb Squigs to gain the Interceptor and Skyfire special rules. (I might be being a bit silly here)
>> How'z....this supposed to work? Do they get wings or something?
Flash Gitz I'm pretty sure someone has already mentioned this. But lots more options should be available for Flash Gits, like the ability to take combi-weapons or upgrade to twin-linked. Fluff wise, they have the money to upgrade their awesome weapons, let them.
>> Combi-snazzguns? Great idea! But what to take? Rokkits and skorchas?
Mob rule: -- Fear is allready a sub-par forgettable special rule. Don't want to completely invalidate it. LD8 against fear and LD10 for boss squad is allready good imo. -- Agreed.
Burna - straight up flamer, no secondary mellee capabilities. Costs 5 pts. Able to make one s5 ap2 unwieldy attack in mellee. Does not prevent from shooting a flamer. Costs 10 pts. 7 points per model can be upgraded to have the Torrent special rule.... it all depends on correct pricing. And it needs intense playtesting. -- Agreed.
Da Lukky Stikk - I wasn't a huge fan of your "stops at the first fail" because it IS nice to have a powerhouse character. Some people have said he's situational, but personally I think it works well as it is. I wouldn't really want to change it.
Warboss Gazbag's Blitzbike adds Skilled Rider ... No slot swap since 7-th. And it's right imo. Eldar have their jetbikes as troops cause they're annoying cheezemongers, not cause it's right But but but... fluffiness! Realistically, I agree. Ok, no bikes as troops. But i think the Blitzbike or regular Warbike should be an option for the Weirdboy to take at least.
Red Paint Job - Adds +2" to all movement methods. 10 points for Vehicles. Tourny wise, people use Big Trukks because the boarding Planks are 2" for 5points when they charge. I feel that 15 is a VERY expensive price for an extra 2" only when you charge. Perhaps something extra then, like you're not allowed to take any walkers in your list? Or perhaps my thoughts should be kept for a formation?.
Ramshakkle - Returns to original rules for Trukks. Battlewagons can purchase it for 10/15 points.
>> Even though everyone liked the original ramshakkle cause it's fun, think we'll stick to codex one cause it's more practical, easy to resolve and it's previous incarnation would be hazardous - it was 2/3 chance to explode when the vehicle is destroyed. Nowadays, with a hullpoint system, vehicles get glanced to death most of the time. Massed s4 explosions would be very harmful for us. Heck, even if they go back to s3, it's still not something you'd like in a regular game. Okay, so what about allowing ramshackle for all transports? Rather than just trukks. Or did you say that already...?.
Big Mek ... Tellyport Blasta Costs 15 pts, Range increased to 18", Gets Hot! On the roll of a 1 or 2, the weapon instantly teleports the Big Mek and his unit into combat, as though they have charged that turn.
>> Fun thing but it's a potential, yet random, turn one assault or assault from reserves. i didn't actually think of it as a turn 1 assult. The idea that the Tellyporta Blasta only being usable on a Mega Armour seemed kinda pants to me tbh.
Big Mek: KFF extends to 6" invulnerable save EVEN WHEN the Big Mek is inside a transport.
Big Mek: Is now able to take the Burna again but becomes a power weapon in CC (same rules as in 4th ed. Why did they remove it?
If a Big Mek is your Warlord, then all vehicles in your army may be upgraded to include any 1 Mek Gun from the Heavy Support list.
-- Yes, I'm being forward about this one, I think it would be brilliant to have Warbuggies, Battlewagons, Trukks and Dakkajets running around with Kustom Mega Kannons. Because why WOULDN'T an ork want to put those awesome guns on something that moves???
>> Fluffy cool idea. Need to consider it. But needs some limitations or we'd get eldar jetbikes. i doubt that we'd get eldar jetbikes because it means that we're going to be running very expensive armour 10 buggies all over the place. Glass gannons. Eldar Jetbikes are the power they are because they also have the durability and jink.
Boyz can take a Big Choppa per every 10 boyz in the squad (instead of a bigshoota or rokkit launcha). agreed
Nobz Da Speed Freakz - the whole squad takes warbikes and gets skilled rider for 30ppm? Remember the thing that kept these guys alive in older codexes were their invulnerable save. Did we return that somewhere? That would be nice.
Tankbustas Bomb Squigs are s8 ap3, ignore cover and can work vs any target other than a flyer (that's up in the air) or swooping FMC. The Nob can be upgraded to have Da Big Whacky! for 15 points all Bomb Squigs to gain the Interceptor and Skyfire special rules. (I might be being a bit silly here)
>> How'z....this supposed to work? Do they get wings or something?
Think: Massive golf club!
Flash Gitz I'm pretty sure someone has already mentioned this. But lots more options should be available for Flash Gits, like the ability to take combi-weapons or upgrade to twin-linked. Fluff wise, they have the money to upgrade their awesome weapons, let them.
>> Combi-snazzguns? Great idea! But what to take? Rokkits and skorchas?
Let them be like the Nobz and pick and choose depending on the unit. It would be a 1 time use. Not sure why skorchas jumped to 10points these days actually.
Really enjoying this thread Some really nice additions. In general what I feel the ork codex lacked was imagination and customisation. There orks for crying out loud, yet they have such limited options. Why cant a warboss take stuff like a rokkit pack? or a snazzgun? But you've hit some really good points here
I think giving more vehicles ramshackle is a no-brainer, its a useful rule and in general what ork vehicle isn't a scrap pile? at 6+ its also not very likely, so the points upgrade for 5+ is a nice addition.
Flashgitz do need the armour and the ability to upgrade is so befitting to them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- things i'd be interested in seeing;
Wargear options opening up for all HQs in terms of mobility; bikes, rokkit packs available for all. I mean every other codex has jump sorcerors, jump lords, bike sorcs, bike lords.
How about a thing called 'Da workshop'; So its basically a 'build a tank' thing, with modular costing and additions. Like; Adding transport capacity, adding either legs or trakks, adding in armour values, adding in weapons.
Obviously it would have to be costed right and limitations in (or just extreme costings - like if you wanted 10+ weapons on it then it gains a rule where its automatically an extra 100 pts, just to prevent stacking and overkill). I think it would require some thought, but easily do-able, initially I thought having increasing armour costs (so AV14 isn't just AV10 + (1AV*4) it would be more expensive. But then I thought actually you'd like to be able to take some cheap AV. Like how the gunwagon is. So maybe the ability to give up stuff can reduce overall cost. (like giving up weapons allows +1AV for free).
IMO, orks have the ability to convert any tank in the game, let alone models outside the game, however our vehicles lack any sort of imagination. They have really bland weapon options, really bland ideas; (they are basically either a trukk, or a wagon). With this you could actually create some really cool things, like you could build a vehicle specifically for your busta's. It could have limited capacity at 5 models, but 5 firing points, no open-top, so no assault, but then also AV13. Or you could make something designed for assault units. Its a skimmer, OT, AV10, but has stacked something like ramshackle at 4+. Basically im thinking how looted wagons should have been.
Kind of expanding on something I wrote upthread as an actual change to the codex: Da Finkin' Kap could have two modes - either let you take a Trait and roll another on the Strat. traits table, like it is now, or simply let you pick the trait you want to use. No Warlord trait in the game is so powerful that it can break the Orks, and they're all possible within the confines of a regular game anyway.
koooaei wrote: Guaranteed infiltration or -1 to enemy reserves are quite powerful.
Definitely powerful, but no more so than the new Eldar dex - a lot less, really - and still not enough to make Orks OP. Competitive when synergized with different formations but not anywhere near OP. Using it with the Warband formation takes a LOT of the sting out of both Mob Rule and not getting the new decurion formations. An opponent can still kill the Warboss and negate the effects of it anyway.
Im bringing my own Ork Decurion formation, its going to be 1 HQ choice and 12 units of whatever, in my case that will be 12 units of Mek Gunz, and im using the new Codex that the orks got where KMKs are Large blast, ordinance with S9 AP2 and a special piece of wargear that says they don't scatter.
Thats about on par with Eldar, so lets make it happen.
A fun thing to do with an Eldar player is to actually suggest playing with any of these rule adjustments (in my case it was letting me choose a Warlord Trait rather than rolling for it randomly) and them watch them scream about how it's "unfair". Then you get to legitimately taunt them for hiding behind an OP insta-win codex.
Kooai, sure they took away things becoming troops or even gaining opsec but it wouldn't be unreasonable within 7th to say gazbags and or zadsnark could allow a mob or all mobs of boys to buy -wargear- 12pts-Warbike... Right?
Ghazkuul wrote: Im bringing my own Ork Decurion formation, its going to be 1 HQ choice and 12 units of whatever, in my case that will be 12 units of Mek Gunz, and im using the new Codex that the orks got where KMKs are Large blast, ordinance with S9 AP2 and a special piece of wargear that says they don't scatter.
Thats about on par with Eldar, so lets make it happen.
this made me laugh Made me realise how we are all here suggesting things that were all like; "I hope this wouldn't be too powerful...'insert blah'... Could be fun and flavourful!" Yet even when you compare anything we come up with against the current elder dex it still looks sub-par on so many levels
Koooai, after seeing that gw office pic you posted I realize their horrible rules writing is really good for their breed. I would expect more from a German, but a Goldie? Not so much.
And i am just showing you how Sketchy's idea could work. And technically we can do it right now with Zadsnark till forge world updates, so it's not even a stretch. Just no one has
Automatically Appended Next Post: 4050$ to spend on orc bikes to run 90 of them in a list.
My general changes would be to open up more options in general for a lot of our mechanical units, and several of our actual infantry. Orks are always described as having so many wonky contraptions so they're tough to predict. Yet, we really have very, very STATIC load outs throughout the entire book.
I'd like Walkers to all be able to squadron, first of all. Why wouldn't they? Of all the races, Orks are the most likely to bring loads of war engines. Why? Because they can slap them together in so little time, and there are PLENTY of willing recruits to get fitted into them, unlike most other factions who require weird rituals and rare materials (Eldar) or require select dead or near dead soldiers to fit into them (Marines).
Kanz fit great as a 1-6 pack as they are now, but could use a small price drop to compensate for their lack of staying power. Cowardly Grots itself never bothered me, I've yet to fail it (Though I run Walker heavy, which includes Dreads being nearby anyway). Kanz should also be able to grab Gitfindas, to help boost them up a little more too.
Deff Dreads fit well at a 1-3 selection as well. They can be costly, so even gaining a wider access to them won't be 'broken', since they 1.) suffer from poor vehicle rules to begin with 2.) unless your walker theming anyway, you're unlikely to have loads to field to begin with 3.) Most run them as CC monsters, so they aren't insanely difficult to counter, even in larger numbers.
'Naughts should be able to run in 1-2 packs. Seems fitting, considering their fluff. Gork and Mork should run together and destroy whatever they can get their Klaws on.
What else would I change for Walkers in particular?
Ramshackle - A psudo invul would be really nice for them. I'm surprised it isn't a book wide rule for Ork vehicles to begin with. I like the idea of Extra Armor buffing the Ramshackle roll, which could give all vehicles a psudo 5+ invul. Might be a little much, but it sure is Orky, considering how easily they pop, but just how weird Ork tech can be. It shouldn't work, and shouldn't survive...yet somehow, through sheer Orkitude, it just might do both.
Mek Gun loadouts - I believe this was covered, but walkers at the least should be able to pack some real weapons. Yes, Rokkits are nice, but they lack the whollop needed to get the job done without mass fire. In addition to normal gun load outs for Walkers, they should be able to choose from:
Kustom Mega Kannon, Bubble Chucka, Lifta Droppas.
KMK - Same as book profile now
Bubble Chucka - These should change. The fluff states they create a physical bubble or dome, either trapping units inside, or not allowing things to pass (Without having to fight through the dome first). The gun itself should reflect that. The weapon should either be a blast or large blast (perhaps for a tax, you can change the blast size). Any unit that gets caught under the marker ends up trapped in the bubble. They must make some kind of test to try to break out of it. If they can't, they are trapped within it for a turn, and cannot shoot or be shot. If they are the target of a charge, then the charging unit must make a test, and if they succeed, they can shatter the dome and attack the guys within. Otherwise, the charge fails.
Second part is if the blast scatters off doesn't hit any targets, the blast marker remains in place until the beginning of the Ork players next turn. The marker becomes impassable terrain but does not block line of sight. Any unit trying to shoot/move/charge through it must pass the required test to shoot the unit on the other side of it or move through the bubble.
Lifta Droppa - Should work I think similar to the new Knight's toss glove thing. Have a short range to compensate, maybe 12'' range? If you hit with the shooting attack, you may make an immediate shooting attack against another enemy unit within 12", with various profiles depending on the type of vehicle you are throwing (Or perhaps based on side armor or something?)
How many of the above could be taken per squad would be interesting and help limit shinanigans, especially with how good the Chucka could actually be. Again, most of this is balanced out by crap ballistic skills too. Maybe only Dreads or Naughts can take the above mentioned weapons? Kanz just keep their usual gear, as they are the lighter duty Walkers.
I'm also a firm believer in 'Build a Naught', just as I am 'Build a Stompa'. I think these options should have been a thing to begin with. Honestly, I'd be willing to buy a suppliment that opened up these options.
You pay a flat rate for the chassis. For both Stompa and Naughts, they could simply be 10/10/10 flat with typical Ork Walker BS and WS for X points. You can then tack on points to increase armor faces (perhaps making a cap for each face for each, so Naughts can't be quite as durable as a Stompa). You can then add on up to X weapons, the weapon list being a hodge podge of all the Walker weaponry and perhaps even unique guns/melee weapons for just these two. You could actually make a CC monster Naught or Stompa, or just load them with Dakka, and even forgo a CC weapon.
Phew...
While I know that is pretty much all wish listing, It's my deep desire for Ork walkers to get a boon (Walkers in general, actually). They are hands down my favorite units in any army. I love the whole idea of em, even if logically, they'd be a bit insufferable to actually implement in a real setting. Which is why 40k is so damn great.
I'd like to see a heavy ranged option for the MANz. Shoulder mounted like the deffgun perhaps and basically the Supa Shoota in stats.
Grots would be nice if they could be upgraded to have 2 grotzookas in the unit.
I too want to see Storm Nobz and the Rockit Pack should be an option in their upgrades. These are Nobz, if any Boyz unit has it then they will also have them as an option and even made available to them first if they chose to use em.
A Kustom Tellyporta Pack is overdue. An upgrade for a Big Mek that allows him and his unit to leave and deep strike in an instant. Maybe as an Orkimedes relic for starters since he's the Ork behind the tellyporta tek.
Deffkoptas can use a character upgrade
The Flash Gitz are the ones who should have the Kustom Shootas with various purchaseable tweaks.
Lootas basic package of deffguns is also fine, they are all just cobbled up flimflam but I too feel the name Loota is lost and they should be able to take upgrades found in various other races hvy squad options. I've recall something like this the last time I've ever read an Ork Codex which was 3e.
If tourneys don't allow Super Heavies then I would be against moving Nauts to that class. They oughta be changed to assault vehicles for sure and a firepoint in front or two. If it remains not a super heavy then those little extra rockit launchas and big shootas aren't so great if everything shoots at the same target. I'd remove them and give them the option to put a big mek gun of their choosing on top beside the pilot, pretty much the same idea that the BWs have.
The Bomma needs more ammo or more dakka, what if they had twin linked rockit launchas?
I always feel every Ork Transport vehicle should have access to a 50pt KFF option (trukks, BWs, Nauts and yeah Stompa).
With that in mind then I'd not move Cybork back to invulnerable, I'd keep it as the current FnP but I'd make it better then a t-shirt save. 5+ maybe 4+.
Some people don't give the Weirdboy as much credit as he is due. Upgraded to Psyker level 2 and on his turn he builds charges as a Psyker level 3 is pretty cool. Being the only psykic unit we got I think it would be even cooler if they can pay for even a higher level.
Warboss should be an MC. I blame this view on video games. Cuz holy they are big and strong, using 2 hnd Choppas, Hammers and 2 hnd Shootas in one hand each like a normal boy uses a slugga and choppa. Kap'n Bluddflagg comes to mind, he's insanely huge and ripped.
If it's too much, maybe just Ghazzy being an MC to represent that some warbosses like him and The Beast reach these levels of size. He's monstrously expensive too so...
All vehicles should be using grots as the gunners. It's obvious they use them better and don't want to melee, The Orks know this, put em on the guns.
Please make an Ork fortification stat sheet that is seperate from the ADF so that we can make have our own wall that will have area for grots to be placed and still see.
Grots should allow Orks to get pass various terrain obstacles like barbed wire, mines, high ledges/walls etc... but take hits in the process as the Orks use them in a very crude and direct fashion.
We already have Lobbas, Bubble Chuckas need to be reworked. Perhaps something more kunnin then brutal. Hvy1 Barrage Blind Pinning. I big shimmering bubbly splat. Probably don't even need to give it wounding capability, not sure.
^I had the same idea for Bubble Chucka, no damage, but has trapping or field altering effects.
I'd love for Gretchen to get more use as well. It feels heavily wasted potential. Especially that BS 3. Yeah, we get to use it on Kanz, but they aren't the best Dakka platforms. We use em mostly for Mek Gunz, but...I'd LOVE for Grots to be more than JUST a screen.
I still want Grot snipers of some kind. Allowing you to take small, Grot Sniper squads to help suppress a unit da boyz intend to rush would be hilarious and really helpful.
Allowing Grotzookas would be cool too, as you mentioned. Maybe the Grots could take 2 Special weapons per squad. Though I feel 2 Sniper shots only might be a tad wasted, but who knows! I'd still run Sniper Grots every game.
Oh, so many cool ideas! Could you, if possible, write a pointcost layout for this stuff?
The problem with customization is that it's very hard to achieve correct pricing. To be honest, every time there are many customization options, something's always left over. Just take a look at any transport - be it a truck or a rhino. They both have lots of shiny parts yet only 1-2 things are constantly used and other 10 are avoided. Cause it's not easy to find correct pricing for customizable upgrades. It all requires playtesting. I'm planning to run a few test games with walkers, gits, kommandoes and truckboyz with 'eadwompa boss and tellyporta blasta megamek. Unfortunately, i don't own any walkers or gits, so will have to do it in vassal - the best way for quick playtesting imo.
Just need to find an opponent willing to play against modified rules, eh.
I must admit I'm somewhat frustrated with the way ork boyz are slaughtered on the battlefield. Yes, it's supposed to be a horde army. But at the same time:
”Orkoid physique itself is so robust that it can withstand tremendous punishment. They feel surprisingly little pain, even from the most grievous of wounds, enabling them to fight on whilst horrifically injured and even for a short while after being technically dead.” (Codex, chapter on The Barbarous Hordes)
So ... judging by this they shouldn't go down by the dozen to simple Bolt Pistols (AP 5). I think this could simply be handled by changing the Sv 6+ to a Feel No Pain 6+. This would be a quite a buff, admittedly.
The super durability is represented by toughness 4. Remember that SM are also super-durable fluffwise
BTW, 6+ fnp was a widespread rumor about the 7-th dex. Many people would like to see it coming to life. But i'm not sure if i'm willing to add this army-wide buff for free yet. It would also require painboyz, painbosses and mad dok's repricing.
I think that it might be a bit ott. Many armies allready have problems dealing with ork hordes. And now we get even more durable.
I play footslogging orkses myself. Have around 100 bodies on board every game (mostly play around 1500 pts). Yep, 6+++ is appealing but i don't want to overbuff my own playstyle. I feel that other stuff like walkers needs more love while footslogging horde is doing pretty fine as is. It'd just be a bit more frustrating for regular enemies and not noticeable for power armies.
Going of melevolences post; I definitely think the design/build a naught or tank is an option. Yes it would take time to get right, but not impossible.
As for something else with walkers, I was thinking something along the lines of the hellbrute table. but more orky?
So on a glancing hit something like; 1-2 = The shot blasts of a piece of armour, but at the same time lodges the engine into all steam ahead! - front AV drops by 1, but the walker can now move 12", but must snap shoot all weapons, can leave a squadron via this rule.
2-4 = The shot blasts off a armour plate.. only to reveal.... more armour! glancing hit is ignored. no HP removal.
5-6 = Overdrive! the energy from the shot is absorbed by the ork engine of war, supercharging its weapon systems. All weapons gain Gets hot! but also become AP2. (or maybe inc Str, or maybe a static +1Str, -1AP)
Overall I really like ork randomness, but not randomness that is detrimental in an annoying fashion. Like snazzgun AP, rolling after target selection is so annoying :/ I like randomness that can then be utilised! So stuff that occurs at the start of the turn and may alter your strategy, not randomness that occurs after you've decided on your plan and then just ruins it.
I've come across the idea of making Gits boyz again (and not nobz). Might conssider it later, but now, i think, we'll go with FA. Than we'll think about further wishlisting, i guess =)
I'd really like to implement some sort of customization that'd be viable yet not exploitable or ott. Forgeworld has a number of good examples. Big Trakks, Gun Trucks, most of the vehicles are highly customisable for good.
koooaei wrote: Oh, so many cool ideas! Could you, if possible, write a pointcost layout for this stuff?
The problem with customization is that it's very hard to achieve correct pricing. To be honest, every time there are many customization options, something's always left over. Just take a look at any transport - be it a truck or a rhino. They both have lots of shiny parts yet only 1-2 things are constantly used and other 10 are avoided. Cause it's not easy to find correct pricing for customizable upgrades. It all requires playtesting. I'm planning to run a few test games with walkers, gits, kommandoes and truckboyz with 'eadwompa boss and tellyporta blasta megamek. Unfortunately, i don't own any walkers or gits, so will have to do it in vassal - the best way for quick playtesting imo.
Just need to find an opponent willing to play against modified rules, eh.
Usually, that is the cost of high customization. BUT, just because the power gamers tend to ignore the other stuff, doesn't mean fluffy players won't use it, just because they can. I'm one such person. If an upgrade sounds fun, despite being perhaps not the most valid or economical, I'll do it. Yeah, it may cost me a game or two, but I play Orks. I never truely lose.
I like the changes you've made to it. Most of the stuff was mainly pricing issues which you promptly solved. We previously discussed about Zagstruk before, is he still at the same points with the same wargear? So far he looks pretty good, just curious on whether or not you still like the change they made on his Vulcha Klaws only being 1 HoW hit. Although he and his unit get to do HoW every turn because of his rules, I still feel underwhelmed by it personally. If it was at least D3 HoW hits it would feel less of a footnote and worthy of a guy who had his legs torn off by a dreadnought. Obviously with a boost like that he'd get a slight price hike, but given that he only costs (65?) points it'd be worth bumping it back to his old price if he provided extra oomph along the Stormboy nob. Also, I'm presuming that your omission of a stormboyz revision implies you're fine with how they work?
I like the changes you've made to it. Most of the stuff was mainly pricing issues which you promptly solved. We previously discussed about Zagstruk before, is he still at the same points with the same wargear? So far he looks pretty good, just curious on whether or not you still like the change they made on his Vulcha Klaws only being 1 HoW hit. Although he and his unit get to do HoW every turn because of his rules, I still feel underwhelmed by it personally. If it was at least D3 HoW hits it would feel less of a footnote and worthy of a guy who had his legs torn off by a dreadnought. Obviously with a boost like that he'd get a slight price hike, but given that he only costs (65?) points it'd be worth bumping it back to his old price if he provided extra oomph along the Stormboy nob. Also, I'm presuming that your omission of a stormboyz revision implies you're fine with how they work?
Yep, when something's not listed it means that it remains as per book. I'm pretty happy with stormboyz, to be honest. I run them in almost every game in a squad of ~10 with PK, BP nob. They're really great for my footslogging list. Able to hide behind blos or heavy cover and threaten half the board with their enormous charge range on WAAAGH! Not too outstanding but well worth ~130 pt i pay for them.
However, i'm not happy with how they perform in a large squad. And here's where Zaggy is supposed to come into play. But...codex Zaggy doesn't. He's supposed to be a draconian disciplinarian yet he only acts as one when he's a Warlord. And making Zag warlord is a bad idea cause firstly, he's not tough, secondly, he belongs to stormboyz that die like flies and lastly, but most importantly, he doesn't have WAAAGH which is the main thing that makes stormboyz viable. So, his real role is to provide buffs to the larger squad of stormboyz that he joins and probably threaten some sarge with his s9 ap2 HOW and a bunch of s5 attacks.
Take note that he's 5++ now which is not bad. I think that 65 pts for an ok combat, nice buffs and Breaking Heads (which, i think, represents his interaction with vulcha skwad perfectly) is nice.
As you might have noticed, i'm trying to make this special squad characters - Zag, Snikrot and Badrukk - more buffers than hard-hitters. Probably, except for Badrukk - his gun is decent but i believe, he's still worse than 4 regular Gits on his own, yet makes a larger squad hit hard enough to justify his cost. Anywayz, they're supposed to inspire taking larger squads to buff.
New Zagstruk is excellent, though the 5++ isn't mentioned in your OP
D3 HoW might be a good way to go about it. The klaw-leg thing should be more than just a 'footnote' as grimskul put it. Would happily pay more for him if he got that, but that is from a spend happy apocalypse format point of view
I'll definitely be giving this codex a try in the near future
Dakkamite wrote: New Zagstruk is excellent, though the 5++ isn't mentioned in your OP
D3 HoW might be a good way to go about it. The klaw-leg thing should be more than just a 'footnote' as grimskul put it. Would happily pay more for him if he got that, but that is from a spend happy apocalypse format point of view
I'll definitely be giving this codex a try in the near future
He has a Cybork body. And CB is back to 5++. Listed in Wargear. I should write it down there as a comment to make it more clear.
Well, Klaw leg is represented by Cybork body (5++) and s9 ap2 HOW.
d3 HOW as suggested by Grimskul could be great. How much do you guyz think it's worth? On the other hand, i feel it might be too good, yet random a bit.
So, the most difficult stuff is left for now. Ghazzy, Stompa and Looted Wagon.
I want to make Ghazzy a ld buffer, yet, he's supposed to be dead hard and not cost too much cause he's just a slow guy without teleportation or any reliable delivery system in the end. Furthermore, he's supposed to be surrounded by elite squads like manz and nobz fluffwise. AND he's supposed to possess one of the mightiest headbutts the universe has ever known PFFF...that's just pretty darn hard to achieve all at once and still remain well-priced.
Here's what i'd try first.
Ghazzy gets Fear, Effigy (fearless within 6"), Units within 12" containing at least one model with 'ere We Go get Stubborn and +1 LD.
Adamantite Scull: Gets +1 to Invul Save (means with Cybork Body he gets 4++), has Adamantium Will and inflicts d3 HOW hits that are ap2, concussive.
Ghazzy and any Model with Megaarmour in his squad are Relentless and not SNP.
Gets a twin-linked bigshoota. I mean, come on, it's even modelled as TL.
He looses his special WAAAGH that makes him 2++.
What do you think about it? Is it too much? Is it too little? Or is it perfectly fine? Maybe should keep him 5++? HOW now makes a stupid WL trait of +1 str from ghazzy book actually do something. Maybe he should drop in price? Or on the opposite, get a price increase for all those stuff? I'd price him at 200 pts. Feels like a Hot Spot. Yet, i'm not sure if it's fair price.
Looted wagons are supposed to be looted anything and not just looted rhinos. It should also be highly customizable. That's the main difficulty. But there are so many different vehicles that it's gona take a whole separate codex to describe looted wagons and not make them OTT or underwhelming on the opposite.
Like we can always tell that an ork managed to loot a vehicle - it gets bs2, ws4(if has any) and don't press dat! And...what's next? It might be a Predator that's just bs2 now and what should it's correct pricing be? Or it could be a heldrake which doesn't care about BS but can get insta-killed if you roll a 1 on don't press dat. Or it could be an undestructible wave serpent that doesn't even care about shooting anymore.
A Looted wagon should have some standard profile and standard weapons and ork wargear. It should have some different flavors of armor. It might be interesting to make it's AV purchasable. There's a lot of stuff to consider.
Stompa - i don't know what to do about it as i haven't run a stompa ever. I like the idea of custom stompa where you can build it bit by bit. But i'm not the best person to judge it. So, that's completely up to you, guyz.
koooaei wrote: Forgot about smashguns. I think they should get lance.
Added Ghazzy. Ideas? Is the buff justified? Is he good now or maybe too good? I don't know if he should get 4++ invul or keep it 5++
Personally, I think you balanced him pretty well, better than I did when I tried to rewrite his rules the first time around. Comparing him to a normal MA Warboss now with the Lucky Stikk, he's now actually worth the additional price tag as he gives an interesting buff gradient with those within 6" getting Fearless and those further away with Stubborn and a Ld boost. This in conjunction with a 4+ invuln. (which I think should be the minimum standard for any HQ at the 200 points level) makes it so that he is at least on par with most combat HQ's, much better than the 1 turn 2+ invuln. from his WAAAGH! we have now. To price him anymore would conflict with how most Ork armies utilize multiple HQ slots to support the army and as good as Ghazghkull is, he can't work by himself. Plus as a LoW choice, you need to take HQ slots anyways so I feel his pricing is about right.
I do feel however he does deserve an additional bonus to when he calls a WAAAGH!, if only to harken back to the days when his old WAAAGH! in the 4th dex was significantly better (and being the conduit of Gork and Mork helps!), he can lose the 2++ bonus but I think that given that he already gives Fearless base as an Effigy that his Warlord trait is slightly redundant, even if it does apply to the rest of the army. Maybe his WAAAGH! gives Crusader to all units that have 'Ere We Go? Obviously if this was added in it would bump up his points by 20-25 points but I think it adds a little oomph to otherwise mundane WAAAGH!.
Yep, crusader is a good idea, actually. But i don't want to incorporate it into his pt cost, he's allready 225 pts which is an enormous ammount for 1 model for orks. Maybe we could give away something to put it in?
We could avoid +1 ld within 12" for example. It's a huge buff for orks. Or d3 HOW. Or it could become ap-. But i don't want to take away HOW as it's quite fluffy.
koooaei wrote: Yep, crusader is a good idea, actually. But i don't want to incorporate it into his pt cost, he's allready 225 pts which is an enormous ammount for 1 model for orks. Mabe we could give away something to put it in?
We could avoid +1 ld within 12" for example. It's a huge buff for orks. Or d3 HOW. Or it could become ap-. But i don't want to take away HOW as it's quite fluffy.
I think taking away the +1 ld is probably a fair tradeoff. The stubborn already does wonders for smaller units like Meganobz anyhow so that by itself is good enough. Maybe take away Adamantium Will as well in the process? It's fluffy and I like it myself (especially given that he has an Adamantium Skull too...) but its something we could take away as part of the trade off. And sadly most psychic powers worth stopping are blessings anyways so unfortunately it wouldn't come into play very often.
I'll be back with more thorough ideas of my own at a later date when I have access to my codex, but there's a couple of things that jump out at me (good and bad).
- RPJ giving +1 to Jink Saves for Flyers for 10 points (?) is too powerful. Keep that extra inch, it can come in useful sometimes. Lower it to 5pts.
- Keep Flash Gitz AP shenanigans as they are. The randomness comes hand in hand with the orkiness and the ability to choose makes them too powerful and doesn't make sense either. Lower their points cost if need be, or bring back the old rules where you could pay to modify the AP by -1 each time etc
- Absolutely love the idea of boyz squads being able to purchase Big Choppas.
- Try not to add too much stuff to the Relics just for the hell of it. Most of them are pretty good, just the option to take more than one is enough.
- Again, you seem to be trying to alter Walkers too much. Both simply need a points decrease (of the actual model and maybe upgrades too), Deff Dreads need to be able to be taken in squads and Kans need the cowardly rule scrapped (they're in big metal walkers for gods sake!). And they need 'Ere we go if they don't already have it (can't remember - never used them).
Just food for thought, and thanks for starting this discussion
Even with ere we go movement tends to be an issue for many ork units. The fw ork walkers has a good fleet based rule for walkers and formations that give waaggh every turn are a big help. This is why I feel ghazi needs waaggh every turn. With the ability to give mega nobs move run charge and army wide fearless. Those str two major issues in the way of assault based armies.
Bigger walkers need invul or cover saves.
Buggies need cover saves. I like the admech walker rules that increase invul by 1 for each unit do the same for buggies with cover instead up to 3+ cover.
Cybork bodies I rather see be a +1 fnp instead of invul.
I don't want to see superheavy nauts instead I rather kff be avail on both varients a points drop and the ability to fire at seperate targets. I'd also think both should be assault vehicles.
The stompa needs a points drop and a void shield generator added to protect it from str d shooting.
Truks definitely need the old ramshackle rules.
Cans need to lose cowardly grots.
And all walkers can use a points drop.
Most special characters need to be unit upgrades or not count toward slot limits.
Like to see weirdboyz get an anti psyker attack that overloads a psyker w warp energy and causes them to auto take a perils test with a neg 2 leadership. Can remove one of the more redundant witch fires they have. Can also make it a 12in nova power and hit all psykers in range. This gives weirdboyz a roll for anti deathstars.
Orc flyers need to be cheaper they are fine for what they are suppose to do just not cost effective.
Some of these ideas can be part of a speed freak supplement or campaign formations.
- Again, you seem to be trying to alter Walkers too much. Both simply need a points decrease (of the actual model and maybe upgrades too), Deff Dreads need to be able to be taken in squads and Kans need the cowardly rule scrapped (they're in big metal walkers for gods sake!). And they need 'Ere we go if they don't already have it (can't remember - never used them).
Just food for thought, and thanks for starting this discussion
Thiis.
They can get 'ere we go via the Dread Mob formation, but I absolutely hate the new practice of giving units the stuff they need to function well only when in these formations (looking at you W!G supplement)
Otherwise, maybe a few tweaks (ramshackle, rolling scrap pile etc etc), squads, being able to take not as heavy support and a steep price cut and your golden.
The stompa needs a points drop and a void shield generator added to protect it from str d shooting.
Just use the Kustom Stompa. The one in apocalypse is terrible and overpriced. Kustom Stompa is better, cheaper, more fun and I think it can get void shields (that might be the mek stompa)
Yep, on the second thought, +1 to jink is worth 15 pts and not 10 - even for 10-10-10 flyers. Besides, bombers benefit from jink quite a lot. I think i'll make it 15 pts for bombers and 10 pts for dakkaplane.
Flash gits and ap-shenanigans...yep. I start to lean towards changing this stuff back to roll ap after you choose target - even though, it somewhat invalidates them. Will drop the pts to 22, i think. Plan to make the freebota formation bonus - able to reroll ap dice. Cause master-crafted is a pain to resolve.
Calling WAAAGH every turn would have been too good for just taking 1 model. It's a requirement met when you take lots of stuff - horde detachment or greentide.
I'm changing walkers with formations in mind. I think that 'ere we go is a great bonus that makes taking an expensive walker formation worth it. Kanz do need a point drop and i gave it to them. But dreads are allready cheap for av12 walker standards. How much cheaper should they be? 60-70 pts? Ain't it too low? I think that ramshakkle and being able to squadron is allready enough for them. The majority of changes are about wargear. And this changes are not about making some unit better taking this wargear. It's all about making the wargear itself situationally useful so that you could slap your extra armor bits on something and not regret about it. Or finally use a long-forgotten stikkbomb chukka or grabbing klaw and a wrekking ball. And that you could finally paint your planes RED so they could go fasta and jink betta.
I don't want to give +1 to FNP with Cybork bodies. Allready stated it. Don't want decuriorks. +1 to fnp would be a property of Supa-Cybork relic and that's it.
Naughts - i think that they are as massive as a superheavy for current game standards. Note, however, that i've made them much weaker - they're slower, can't stomp as good - means, can't insta-kill something with a stomp which is very annoying imo - can't kill half the army with an explosion. They're somewhere in between the large heavy regular vehicles and superheavies. Just the place they should occupy with their current point cost.
Stompa - don't know nothing bout stompas. As i've said before, it's totally up to you, guyz. Need your ideas to proceed with Stompa.
Old ramshakkle - covered in one of the older posts. As fun as it is, it won't work all that great in 7-th with hullpoint system.
Canz do not need to loose cowardly grots. If something, it's a rule that fits them perfectly fluffwise. They can even run away in fluff. It just needs to be represented in their point cost.
About relic changes. I don't think that unlimited relics should be allowed in the first place. They're supposed to be rare. But some relics are quite supplementary in our book. DSS - 5 pts. As cool as it is, it's not something you use relics for. And once again, like with other wargear, i want to inspire variety. In codex DLS is so much above Killchoppa and Blitzbike for a fighting character that you don't see them at all. I think that i've made both a Killchoppa and Blitzbike competitive. Blitzbike with skilled rider can be used to create a potent biker deathstar. Access to 2+ cover saves is well worth sacraficing DLS goodness. Killchoppa with ap3, as suggested by Grimskul, looks like a great relic for a combat warboss. DSS and Fixer Uppers taken in addition to other stuff only add to variety. Anywayz, i wanted to end the domination of DLS and i think we've made it. Time shall tell. Luckilly, we're not GW and can easilly change stuff that doesn't fit our vision on tabletop, right
I'm changing walkers with formations in mind. I think that 'ere we go is a great bonus that makes taking an expensive walker formation worth it. Kanz do need a point drop and i gave it to them. But dreads are allready cheap for av12 walker standards. How much cheaper should they be? 60-70 pts? Ain't it too low? I think that ramshakkle and being able to squadron is allready enough for them.
How about 75 points? Thats what they cost in Dread Mob. Still not sure if its cheap enough but from an apoc point of view I'll take it
They don't have ramshakkle there I think it should be a theme for ground ork vehicles, really. Something like an army specific rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Changed snazzguns back to: roll ap after choosing target. Lowered it's cost a bit.
Warbosses and Big Meks take it for 5 pts and 8 pts for a master-crafted one.
Ok, 76 points - a 6+ 'save' for penetrating hits isn't something I want to waste my time rolling dice for let alone paying points for.
Absolutely hate rules like that. Its like when my boyz mob gets charged so I roll *60* dice to kill one attacking model. Or when I fail leadership and have to roll another six sets of dice to resolve mob rule. Bleh
I like rolling 60 shoota shots just not as snapshots for no effect.
Now BS2 on the other hand... thats ded killy. In much the same way I love the 5++ from rolling scrap pile but think ramshakle's "6+" is a waste of time
Added the ability to reroll to-hit against immobilized targets for a wrekking ball. A slight nod towards taking a grabbing klaw
Automatically Appended Next Post: Changed Ghazzy adding Crusader but removed +1 LD and reduced d3 HOW hits to 1. Crusader for all orks needs some serious thought and playtesting. It is a very powerful rule for us indeed.
AP starts at 5, then every turn the AP lowers by 1, so Turn 2, its 4, and by turn 4 its AP2.
I did consider starting at 4 and reducing, but that seems quite strong, AP2 by turn 3.
Fluff being; That as they unload there enormous gunz, as the battle wages on the power cores become more and more unstable, the gunz get hotter and hotter firing ever increasing deadly rounds.
Alternate take:
The weapons have gets hot! AP starts at 4, but Gets hot increases while AP decreases. Making them like a murder machine that will kill themselves, but you get the trade off of utilising them while they are strong to smash the right target.
Alternate take 2: Random AP, but for a +X points they gain Thermal rounds;
Once per game the flash gitz may elect to fire thermal rounds - (AP2) - Have Gets Hot! on a 1 or 2, the gun explodes automatically killing the flash git, but the shot still counts as hitting.
So in effect you get to elect to utilise their deadliness at detriment to themselves. Your likely to decimate your target (hitting on a 1,2,5 and 6) but on a 1 or 2 you also kill the git.
Thoughts?
I think Gitz need to not be a random unit, but also not a standard unit with fixed features. They need something that makes them flashy where they truly unleash hell with their shooting.
I like the idea of AP stacking up.
But they should overheat when it reaches ap2 or even ap1.
What about it stucking not on game turns but every round they performed a shooting attack? Maybe it should even include overwatch Like a sign: if you wana charge those guyz, make sure none survives.
On the other hand, it takes away their alpha-strike potential. It means they can't be ap3 or ap2 emidiately.
What do you think bout Ghazzy? Think we should increase his pt cost to 250 at very least with crusader. 250 IS enormous ammount of pts. But so is Crusader an enormous buff for us.
In the end, Ghazzy got 4++, nice potent HOW with ap2 and concussive, Handy LD buffs - Effigy and Stubborn for more remoted squads, he became Relentless and makes every model with megaarmour in his squad relentless - a nod towards megaarmor retinue - means they can run normally and that he's even fieldable footslogging! Even with a bunch of footslogging megaobz if needed. And he also grants all the orks Crusader once per game on his awesome WAAAAGH! No more 2++ though, so, he's not as durable on-demand. Whew, that's a huge amount of buffs. I hope the 250 price tag is justified.
Furious Charge is a good rule for Orks as it emphasizes their aggression and momentum - boyz wreck face on the charge but are far less dangerous in subsequent phases or if charged themselves
'eavy armour @ 2pts is a winner in my books. Maybe more for Nobz but then again who takes non-biker/Mega Nobz?
Dunno if I suggested it already but the above post reminded me - instead of just Meks as those "free" HQ, how about different HQ options unlock different free choices? If you have a Big Mek then any free choice can be a Mek. If you have a Painboss then you can get painboyz. If you have a Warboss you get solo Nobz, and then maybe Warpheads are the HQ psyker and Weirdboyz a weaker free choice version?
2 pts for 'eavy armor is just too cheap. Current 4 pts is perfectly reasonable. 2 pts 'eavy armor would have been auto-include even on footsloggas. While 'eavy armor for 4 pts is mostly used on trukkboyz or some outflanking squads if you plan on any. Variety! It's also fluffy as most footslogging boyz avoid 'eavy armor.
Flash gitz shouldn't gave access to 'eavy weapons as this way they'd just be better shooty nobz. The only reason they're priced not much higher than nobz is their inability to take special mellee weapons.
Mek per Big mek and Dok per Painboss is allready present in the change list from the start
I reckon this fandex could be a good starting point for the Ork errata. Not certain if the more sweeping changes (ie Lootas) would be appropriate (and not sure that they wouldn't either) but the points, gear and army rule adjustments certainly seem right on the money
I'm not sure if every psycher should have access to every school. IG psychers, ork wierdboyz - all with access to invisibility. And greentide + levitate = 2 turn guaranteed charge. Nope, i don't think it's right. Besides, i generally don't mind 2+ rerollable as it's not too gamebreaking. It was too powerful in 6-th with deathstars but time has changed and unkillable 1000 pt deathstars can be countered with regular msu stuff just fine due to maelstorm.
Fateweaver
Tzeench Chariot [with a flamer/lazcannon guy inside]
Tzeench Chariot [with a flamer/lazcannon guy inside]
14 Pink Horrors
3 Nurgling Swarms
10 Screamers
10 Screamers
Tzeench DP with a hell lota random stuff
Slaanesh DP with a hell lota random stuff
Here's a brief batrep:
Spoiler:
There are lots of details but i'll go through the main ones. We roll the 6-th maelstorm mission with vanguard deployment and diminishing objectives from 6 to 1, nightfight, i deploy first and reserve kommandoes, he reserves 10 screamers to deepstrike them. He steals ini. He got lots of random stuff - the most significant of which were flashbane, armorbane to tzeench DP, 4+ fnp and Lash to Slaanesh DP, lots of psy powers like molten beam (that he for some reason never uses but that i fear a lot due to half my army being composed of vehicles. It forced me to spread out my squadrons out of KFF range), Invisibility, Endurance and other stuff.
First turn he mainly moves, buffs everything flies around and does a couple wounts to koptas here and there with psy powers, scores a few VP.
My first turn - i shoot everything at Screamers but with 3+ cover (jink + nf) and reroll 1-s + a reroll from fate, i manage to deal just 2 or 3 wounds.
Second turn. Screamers don't arrive. 2 Chariots arrive in my backlines together with outflanking nurglings and deal 1 wound to a jinking Kopta. He lands a Tzeench DP buffing him with invisibility. He wrecks Big Mek's Trukk for First Blood with Fateweaver's flickering fire that does amazing 4 pens and 3 glances - 7 shots, all hit, all 5-s and 6-s. And than diminishes a squad to just Big mek, Nob and two boyz with other psy powers and flat-outing screamers. Slaanesh DP finishes off a Kopta with psy shreik and flies over Deff dreads to deal 4 HP shooting mighty lash of Slaanesh (2d6 shots) out of his ass (360 degrees firing ark, yay).
My second turn. Kommandoes don't arrive. I flatout boss on an objective close to his backlines, move kanz closer to screamers and deal a lot of wounds with grotzookas and bigshootas reducing the squad to 3 screamers which will result in a failed charge later on. Morkanaught forces 2 chariots to jink (as it's a superheavy now and can shoot at different targets) but does nothing. Later on i'll find out that jinking chariots don't affect his ability to shoot torrents and lazcannons out of it with a rider...yay once again. Gits miss all their shots aimed at Fateweaver. A 1-wound kopta kills 1 nurgling and charges them dealing a wound and 1 more with instability. +1 to fear tests from Mob Rule helps out this time as i rolled 8 for it.
Third turn. Screamers don't arrive. He wrecks warbosse's truck with an ass lash, deals a bunch of wounds here and there, wrecks 2 kanz. Fateweaver perils and grounds himself - even with reroll - close to the remaining of Big Mek's squad. Kills 1 boy with something - the squad's reduced to Big Mek, Nob and 1 boy. He charges 2 remaining Deff dreads with an invisible Tzeench DP. They deal 1 wound with overwatching Skorchas but it gets saved. Thanks to 5+ Ramshakkle on the closer one, 2 out of 3 pens are reduced to glances, so he deals a total of 4 HP wrekking one and leaving a lone deff dread with 1 HP left. Dread misses the invisible DP. 3 screamers charge big mek and nob, kill 1 boy and get eliminated in return with some lucky strikes from a choppa nob, killsaw big mek and instability. Mek and nob consolidate towards Fateweaver.
My third turn. Kommandoes don't arrive. Boss calls WAAAAAAAAAAGH! Runs and charges horrors, badrukk and gits disembark, run and multicharge 1 Chariot and nurglings. Kanz deal a wound to Fateweaver but don't manage to charge him. Big mek and nob make it to Fateweaver. Naught charges a Tzeench DP that's fighting a half-dead deff dread. Boss and boyz eliminate horrors, Badruk and Gits deal a few wounds to nurglings but a chariot herald saves 4 out of 4 wounds, so they're stuck. 4+ armor helps to avoid losses. Tzeench DP with armorbane Murderises a naught before it manages to strike back. Youch. 6 attacks, 6 hits, 5 pens and a glance. Overkill. However, a Catastrophic explosion (which is always a 1 for naughts) manages to deal a wound to DP. Dread misses once again. Big mek and Nob fight Fateweaver, nob challenges and does 2 wounds! Than gets smashed. Big Mek finishes off Fatey.
Fourth turn. Screamers arrive via deepstrike but mishap and are delayed. Slaanesh DP wrecks 1 more kan, Tzeench DP finishes off a dread and consolidates towards a point somewhere close to the board edge that he needs to score. He shoots Big mek with a lazcannon chariot but misses and decides to charge. Unexpectedly, he kills off Big mek with hammer of wraith and a few attacks - even with 2+ armor and 5+ fnp (from shots at the squad with flickering fires and flamers). Consolidates on a point. Gits take a few wounds but finish off a chariot herald and deal a wound to a nurgling. No instability wounds, however.
My fourth turn. Kommandoes arrive and score a point that a Tzeench DP is heading to. Kanz move towards a DP but deal no wounds with shooting thanks to armor and 4+++. The last trukk moves close to a chariot that's sitting on a point that we both need - it's not far from where Badrukk and co are about to finish off the last nurgling. Badrukk and co deal an amazing 0 wounds to a nurgling with their 19 total attacks, so it's a tie.
Fifth turn. Screamers arrive and flatout on a point to score a VP. Tzeench DP buffs himself with Invis and heads towards kommandoes. He attempts to charge them and Kommandoes deal 2 unsaved wounds on overwatch! DP fails to make it there. Slaanesh DP wrecks another kan and deals a HP to another one - just 2 with 1 HP each are left. Than charges and finishes them off. Chariot deals 2 HP to a trukk, and once again 5+ ramshakkle helps to reduce 1 pen to glance. Than The chariot finishes off a truck in mellee. The nurgling is finally squished.
Fifth turn. I finally decide to count up VP as it was not a primary concern for a test game, but it's interesting nonetheless. And it happens to be Orks: 12, Daemons:13. Gits shoot a jinking chariot to no effect and charge it, loosing one on overwatch but killing it in mellee and scoring the point that i need making it 13-13. Boss and boyz spread out a bit to deny his Scremers a point that he might need if the game continues. Kommandoes move towards a Tzeench DP and charge it. Remember, it lost 1 Wound from an exploding Naught and 2 from overwatching kommandoes? So, they finish off an invisible dp with a good old choppa hit!
We roll off and the game finishes. I get 1 VP for linebreaker and he doesn't get 1 thanks to kommandoes. The game's over and orks barely made it 14-13.
So, here are my thoughts on the changes:
Killchoppa and DSS: didn't really have an opportunity to see it in action where it'd matter - against a dp, for example. Needs further playtesting.
Tellyporta - didn't have chance to test it but i hope it's changed to good. Being able to shoot an ap2 blast in addition to another weapon is really good - especially for orkses. Might be one of the reasons to take megamek in the first place. I even start to think that 15 pts is too cheap for it as sm terminators get 2 shoulder rokkit shots for 40 pts (?). On the other hand, it's a unique weapon. I'm torn between pricing it 15 or 20 pts.
Badrukk and Gits - the shooting is still not super great but preferred enemy helps a bit. 4+ armor is good. They did the majority of their stuff in mellee cause the only unsaved ranged wound they've managed to pull off was with 1-st turn shooting at jinking screamers where 6 out of 7 wounds have been saved. However, i think, they're fine now.
Snikrot and kommandoes - didn't have an opportunity to see their full potential this game, so needs further playtesting.
Morkanaught - hard to say here. It got 1-shot with a DP. To be honest, i expected it to do more KFF range is so low.. Maybe it can be fine against armies without beams and anti-tank blasts. It didn't manage to do anything other than force a few jinks that didn't affect anything and 1 wound with explosion. However, i'm sure that it can shine in other games - it was just a wrong matchup for a naught. Needs further playtesting. BTW, what do you think about the KFF? Maybe it needs some changes too?
Deff dreads. Squadron does help a lot. Still didn't do much but at least kept a murderous DP occupied for a bit. I think they can shine in other matchups. Ramshakkle and Extra armor is nice for them. So is stikkbomb chukka that has it's uses.
Killa Kanz. Now i'm happy here. 6+ ramshakkle and 35 pt cost is just what they should have been all along. Not weak, not ott - just good.
All in all, i'm happy with the results yet but it needs further playtesting.
Needs further playtesting. BTW, what do you think about the KFF? Maybe it needs some changes too?
Would pay more to give it the old "units" instead of "models" rule. Same way I'd pay more for Orks if they just got fearless over mob rule - less fiddling around, pointless rolling etc
I'd not like it to be on per-squad base. That's the reason nid's malantropes (or how are those spore things callsed) are so annoting. Cause 1 model can protect half the army. Don't want orks to be annoying.
Now back to KFF. I think that 5++ is fine for it. However, either the price is a bit too high or the radius is too low. For my taste. If it was like 9" it'd be a more common sight even for footsloggas i think.
BTW what do you think about a grabbing klaw? Just noticed you can no longer take them on trukks.
koooaei wrote: I'd not like it to be on per-squad base. That's the reason nid's malantropes (or how are those spore things callsed) are so annoting. Cause 1 model can protect half the army. Don't want orks to be annoying.
Now back to KFF. I think that 5++ is fine for it. However, either the price is a bit too high or the radius is too low. For my taste. If it was like 9" it'd be a more common sight even for footsloggas i think.
BTW what do you think about a grabbing klaw? Just noticed you can no longer take them on trukks.
Definitely overcosted or underpowered. It really can be either, I like overcosted and think it is fairly priced at 35-40pts.
Units within 6" is definitely annoying and can really draw some much needed flack like the KFF of old. Its definitely got to be Models, its just a matter of Range and Price. I think 50pts for 9" is fair, or 6" for 35/40pts.
I continue to roll poorly for Git's shooting. 2 hits out of 15 with bs3 and rerolling ones, eh. So, they continue to kick enemy in mellee with snazzguns beint more of a distraction to the opponent rather than an effective weapon. But that's just my rolling with them. I compensate their shooting with rolling an amazing ammount of 4+ saves They feel fine for what they do in Elites.
Naught was great but i had to shy away from rushing at more scary mellee stuff with it. He still dies pretty fast to anything with good AT capabilities but i'm fine with that. The buff apears to be significant and the naught is acting somewhat decent in the end. Stomps were great against small bugs. However, KFF continues to be more of a first turn protection baube as spreading out + board controle tends to be more important than just 5++ for models within 6" And even 3-dread squadrons are hard to fit there. Don't really know if KFF is worth the points - must face a shooty army (but without AT blasts) to find out.
Kanz were decent once again. They're quite squishy and not overly amazing in mellee but shooty and cheap enough to be a solid roadblock.
Deff dreads also did fine.
We played just 3 turns cause had no more time, so, didn't manage to test kommandoes once again. They tend to not leave reserves the whole game for me
'eadwompa and DSS were also quite viable. I glanced my own truck with DSS, btw. It was hilarious!
Anywayz, i'm happy with the changes so far. Will need to test Ghazzy next time. I have a feeling he'd be a true centerpiece of a footslogging army.
I asked the opponent what he thinks about the changes and he said he liked them. Nothing overpowered and added variety. Made him want to implement some changes to his beloved nids. He had a great idea of implementing something like power from pain that represents nid's adaptation on the battlefield. 1-st turn nothing, 2-d turn adaptation to terrain - moving faster, 3-d turn adaptation to gunfire - some durability buff, etc. We both agreed fmc spam needs to be nerfed and footslogging swarms need a buff.
KFF wagon? That could be interesting. At the same time, don't want to make regular KFF not viable. It still has some uses vs shooty less mobile oponents.
KFF wagon sounds like a FW thing, btw. They tend to do this kind of stuff.
BTW, we still have a looted wagon and stompa left in codex. And i think it's time to take a look at formations and Ghazzy detachment rules that desperately need a change. Also, some artifact rework.
Played with walkers once again and am happy with how they perform.
Gits proceed to be better in mellee than with shooting - even with Badrukk. Probably, the shooty meta has escalated so much that a bunch of s5 shots with medium range and without ignore cover and guaranteed low ap are not that frightening. While a bunch of s4-5 mellee attacks are not that bad. Anywayz, a slight point drop and 'eavy armor and elite status has made gits somewhat viable.
Will try to test Ghazzy next but have a deficite of time with my part time job after the main time job.
. Doesn't give 
what if instead of a variety of looted weapons, they get d3 "kustomized skrap" tokens that they can use to upgrade their stock weapon +1S -1AP. Each model may only have a max of 2 tokens.
