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Solar Shock wrote:

2-4 = The shot blasts off a armour plate.. only to reveal.... more armour! AV on this side increased by 1.

I thought you were gona go like this

I did contemplate it for awhile! I thought how funny it would be for your vehicle to get more survivable as it lost HP

I've read through, but I'm sure I may have missed this.
Codex wide 'Eavy armour upgrade for all orks, +4ppm.

Bring back the old Ramshackle, Without a doubt my favorite ork rule that got taken away.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Bring back the old Ramshackle, Without a doubt my favorite ork rule that got taken away.

when your MANz missile just decided to crash straight into the enemy on their turn. Glorious

I've come across the idea of making Gits boyz again (and not nobz). Might conssider it later, but now, i think, we'll go with FA. Than we'll think about further wishlisting, i guess =)

I'd really like to implement some sort of customization that'd be viable yet not exploitable or ott. Forgeworld has a number of good examples. Big Trakks, Gun Trucks, most of the vehicles are highly customisable for good.

 koooaei wrote:
Oh, so many cool ideas! Could you, if possible, write a pointcost layout for this stuff?

The problem with customization is that it's very hard to achieve correct pricing. To be honest, every time there are many customization options, something's always left over. Just take a look at any transport - be it a truck or a rhino. They both have lots of shiny parts yet only 1-2 things are constantly used and other 10 are avoided. Cause it's not easy to find correct pricing for customizable upgrades. It all requires playtesting. I'm planning to run a few test games with walkers, gits, kommandoes and truckboyz with 'eadwompa boss and tellyporta blasta megamek. Unfortunately, i don't own any walkers or gits, so will have to do it in vassal - the best way for quick playtesting imo.

Just need to find an opponent willing to play against modified rules, eh.

Usually, that is the cost of high customization. BUT, just because the power gamers tend to ignore the other stuff, doesn't mean fluffy players won't use it, just because they can. I'm one such person. If an upgrade sounds fun, despite being perhaps not the most valid or economical, I'll do it. Yeah, it may cost me a game or two, but I play Orks. I never truely lose.

Added FA. What are your thoughts on it?

 koooaei wrote:
Added FA. What are your thoughts on it?

I like the changes you've made to it. Most of the stuff was mainly pricing issues which you promptly solved. We previously discussed about Zagstruk before, is he still at the same points with the same wargear? So far he looks pretty good, just curious on whether or not you still like the change they made on his Vulcha Klaws only being 1 HoW hit. Although he and his unit get to do HoW every turn because of his rules, I still feel underwhelmed by it personally. If it was at least D3 HoW hits it would feel less of a footnote and worthy of a guy who had his legs torn off by a dreadnought. Obviously with a boost like that he'd get a slight price hike, but given that he only costs (65?) points it'd be worth bumping it back to his old price if he provided extra oomph along the Stormboy nob. Also, I'm presuming that your omission of a stormboyz revision implies you're fine with how they work?

 Grimskul wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Added FA. What are your thoughts on it?

I like the changes you've made to it. Most of the stuff was mainly pricing issues which you promptly solved. We previously discussed about Zagstruk before, is he still at the same points with the same wargear? So far he looks pretty good, just curious on whether or not you still like the change they made on his Vulcha Klaws only being 1 HoW hit. Although he and his unit get to do HoW every turn because of his rules, I still feel underwhelmed by it personally. If it was at least D3 HoW hits it would feel less of a footnote and worthy of a guy who had his legs torn off by a dreadnought. Obviously with a boost like that he'd get a slight price hike, but given that he only costs (65?) points it'd be worth bumping it back to his old price if he provided extra oomph along the Stormboy nob. Also, I'm presuming that your omission of a stormboyz revision implies you're fine with how they work?

Yep, when something's not listed it means that it remains as per book. I'm pretty happy with stormboyz, to be honest. I run them in almost every game in a squad of ~10 with PK, BP nob. They're really great for my footslogging list. Able to hide behind blos or heavy cover and threaten half the board with their enormous charge range on WAAAGH! Not too outstanding but well worth ~130 pt i pay for them.

However, i'm not happy with how they perform in a large squad. And here's where Zaggy is supposed to come into play. But...codex Zaggy doesn't. He's supposed to be a draconian disciplinarian yet he only acts as one when he's a Warlord. And making Zag warlord is a bad idea cause firstly, he's not tough, secondly, he belongs to stormboyz that die like flies and lastly, but most importantly, he doesn't have WAAAGH which is the main thing that makes stormboyz viable. So, his real role is to provide buffs to the larger squad of stormboyz that he joins and probably threaten some sarge with his s9 ap2 HOW and a bunch of s5 attacks.

Take note that he's 5++ now which is not bad. I think that 65 pts for an ok combat, nice buffs and Breaking Heads (which, i think, represents his interaction with vulcha skwad perfectly) is nice.

As you might have noticed, i'm trying to make this special squad characters - Zag, Snikrot and Badrukk - more buffers than hard-hitters. Probably, except for Badrukk - his gun is decent but i believe, he's still worse than 4 regular Gits on his own, yet makes a larger squad hit hard enough to justify his cost. Anywayz, they're supposed to inspire taking larger squads to buff.

New Zagstruk is excellent, though the 5++ isn't mentioned in your OP

D3 HoW might be a good way to go about it. The klaw-leg thing should be more than just a 'footnote' as grimskul put it. Would happily pay more for him if he got that, but that is from a spend happy apocalypse format point of view

I'll definitely be giving this codex a try in the near future

Also, i'm having hard time with looted wagons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakkamite wrote:
New Zagstruk is excellent, though the 5++ isn't mentioned in your OP

D3 HoW might be a good way to go about it. The klaw-leg thing should be more than just a 'footnote' as grimskul put it. Would happily pay more for him if he got that, but that is from a spend happy apocalypse format point of view

I'll definitely be giving this codex a try in the near future

He has a Cybork body. And CB is back to 5++. Listed in Wargear. I should write it down there as a comment to make it more clear.

Well, Klaw leg is represented by Cybork body (5++) and s9 ap2 HOW.

d3 HOW as suggested by Grimskul could be great. How much do you guyz think it's worth? On the other hand, i feel it might be too good, yet random a bit.

i feel it might be too good, yet random a bit.

Thats exactly how the random in the Ork codex should work

Also whats wrong with looted wagons? They do seem a bit gak but again, from an apocalypse PoV I can spam them mercilessly.

So, the most difficult stuff is left for now. Ghazzy, Stompa and Looted Wagon.

I want to make Ghazzy a ld buffer, yet, he's supposed to be dead hard and not cost too much cause he's just a slow guy without teleportation or any reliable delivery system in the end. Furthermore, he's supposed to be surrounded by elite squads like manz and nobz fluffwise. AND he's supposed to possess one of the mightiest headbutts the universe has ever known PFFF...that's just pretty darn hard to achieve all at once and still remain well-priced.

Here's what i'd try first.

Ghazzy gets Fear, Effigy (fearless within 6"), Units within 12" containing at least one model with 'ere We Go get Stubborn and +1 LD.
Adamantite Scull: Gets +1 to Invul Save (means with Cybork Body he gets 4++), has Adamantium Will and inflicts d3 HOW hits that are ap2, concussive.
Ghazzy and any Model with Megaarmour in his squad are Relentless and not SNP.
Gets a twin-linked bigshoota. I mean, come on, it's even modelled as TL.

He looses his special WAAAGH that makes him 2++.

What do you think about it? Is it too much? Is it too little? Or is it perfectly fine? Maybe should keep him 5++? HOW now makes a stupid WL trait of +1 str from ghazzy book actually do something. Maybe he should drop in price? Or on the opposite, get a price increase for all those stuff? I'd price him at 200 pts. Feels like a Hot Spot. Yet, i'm not sure if it's fair price.


Looted wagons are supposed to be looted anything and not just looted rhinos. It should also be highly customizable. That's the main difficulty. But there are so many different vehicles that it's gona take a whole separate codex to describe looted wagons and not make them OTT or underwhelming on the opposite.
Like we can always tell that an ork managed to loot a vehicle - it gets bs2, ws4(if has any) and don't press dat! And...what's next? It might be a Predator that's just bs2 now and what should it's correct pricing be? Or it could be a heldrake which doesn't care about BS but can get insta-killed if you roll a 1 on don't press dat. Or it could be an undestructible wave serpent that doesn't even care about shooting anymore.
A Looted wagon should have some standard profile and standard weapons and ork wargear. It should have some different flavors of armor. It might be interesting to make it's AV purchasable. There's a lot of stuff to consider.


Stompa - i don't know what to do about it as i haven't run a stompa ever. I like the idea of custom stompa where you can build it bit by bit. But i'm not the best person to judge it. So, that's completely up to you, guyz.

If looting, make players pay full price for a crappy BS2 Predator. They're paying too much but they can also take anything they want.

Forgot about smashguns. I think they should get lance.

Added Ghazzy. Ideas? Is the buff justified? Is he good now or maybe too good? I don't know if he should get 4++ invul or keep it 5++

 koooaei wrote:
Forgot about smashguns. I think they should get lance.

Added Ghazzy. Ideas? Is the buff justified? Is he good now or maybe too good? I don't know if he should get 4++ invul or keep it 5++

Personally, I think you balanced him pretty well, better than I did when I tried to rewrite his rules the first time around. Comparing him to a normal MA Warboss now with the Lucky Stikk, he's now actually worth the additional price tag as he gives an interesting buff gradient with those within 6" getting Fearless and those further away with Stubborn and a Ld boost. This in conjunction with a 4+ invuln. (which I think should be the minimum standard for any HQ at the 200 points level) makes it so that he is at least on par with most combat HQ's, much better than the 1 turn 2+ invuln. from his WAAAGH! we have now. To price him anymore would conflict with how most Ork armies utilize multiple HQ slots to support the army and as good as Ghazghkull is, he can't work by himself. Plus as a LoW choice, you need to take HQ slots anyways so I feel his pricing is about right.

I do feel however he does deserve an additional bonus to when he calls a WAAAGH!, if only to harken back to the days when his old WAAAGH! in the 4th dex was significantly better (and being the conduit of Gork and Mork helps!), he can lose the 2++ bonus but I think that given that he already gives Fearless base as an Effigy that his Warlord trait is slightly redundant, even if it does apply to the rest of the army. Maybe his WAAAGH! gives Crusader to all units that have 'Ere We Go? Obviously if this was added in it would bump up his points by 20-25 points but I think it adds a little oomph to otherwise mundane WAAAGH!.

Yep, crusader is a good idea, actually. But i don't want to incorporate it into his pt cost, he's allready 225 pts which is an enormous ammount for 1 model for orks. Maybe we could give away something to put it in?

We could avoid +1 ld within 12" for example. It's a huge buff for orks. Or d3 HOW. Or it could become ap-. But i don't want to take away HOW as it's quite fluffy.

 koooaei wrote:
Yep, crusader is a good idea, actually. But i don't want to incorporate it into his pt cost, he's allready 225 pts which is an enormous ammount for 1 model for orks. Mabe we could give away something to put it in?

We could avoid +1 ld within 12" for example. It's a huge buff for orks. Or d3 HOW. Or it could become ap-. But i don't want to take away HOW as it's quite fluffy.

I think taking away the +1 ld is probably a fair tradeoff. The stubborn already does wonders for smaller units like Meganobz anyhow so that by itself is good enough. Maybe take away Adamantium Will as well in the process? It's fluffy and I like it myself (especially given that he has an Adamantium Skull too...) but its something we could take away as part of the trade off. And sadly most psychic powers worth stopping are blessings anyways so unfortunately it wouldn't come into play very often.

The headbutt could be a single WS1 INT1 Strength D hit?

 Dakkamite wrote:
The headbutt could be a single WS1 INT1 Strength D hit?

Would be suitable for a Lord of War!

I can see Ghazzy yelling at a towering Wraithknight and threatening to cave in its legs with his headbutt.

Ghazzy really should have the ability to call waaggh every turn.

Also the stompa could use some tweaks for its price.

I'll be back with more thorough ideas of my own at a later date when I have access to my codex, but there's a couple of things that jump out at me (good and bad).

- RPJ giving +1 to Jink Saves for Flyers for 10 points (?) is too powerful. Keep that extra inch, it can come in useful sometimes. Lower it to 5pts.

- Keep Flash Gitz AP shenanigans as they are. The randomness comes hand in hand with the orkiness and the ability to choose makes them too powerful and doesn't make sense either. Lower their points cost if need be, or bring back the old rules where you could pay to modify the AP by -1 each time etc

- Absolutely love the idea of boyz squads being able to purchase Big Choppas.

- Try not to add too much stuff to the Relics just for the hell of it. Most of them are pretty good, just the option to take more than one is enough.

- Again, you seem to be trying to alter Walkers too much. Both simply need a points decrease (of the actual model and maybe upgrades too), Deff Dreads need to be able to be taken in squads and Kans need the cowardly rule scrapped (they're in big metal walkers for gods sake!). And they need 'Ere we go if they don't already have it (can't remember - never used them).

Just food for thought, and thanks for starting this discussion

Even with ere we go movement tends to be an issue for many ork units. The fw ork walkers has a good fleet based rule for walkers and formations that give waaggh every turn are a big help. This is why I feel ghazi needs waaggh every turn. With the ability to give mega nobs move run charge and army wide fearless. Those str two major issues in the way of assault based armies.
Bigger walkers need invul or cover saves.
Buggies need cover saves. I like the admech walker rules that increase invul by 1 for each unit do the same for buggies with cover instead up to 3+ cover.
Cybork bodies I rather see be a +1 fnp instead of invul.
I don't want to see superheavy nauts instead I rather kff be avail on both varients a points drop and the ability to fire at seperate targets. I'd also think both should be assault vehicles.
The stompa needs a points drop and a void shield generator added to protect it from str d shooting.
Truks definitely need the old ramshackle rules.
Cans need to lose cowardly grots.
And all walkers can use a points drop.
Most special characters need to be unit upgrades or not count toward slot limits.
Like to see weirdboyz get an anti psyker attack that overloads a psyker w warp energy and causes them to auto take a perils test with a neg 2 leadership. Can remove one of the more redundant witch fires they have. Can also make it a 12in nova power and hit all psykers in range. This gives weirdboyz a roll for anti deathstars.
Orc flyers need to be cheaper they are fine for what they are suppose to do just not cost effective.
Some of these ideas can be part of a speed freak supplement or campaign formations.

 The Shadow wrote:


- Again, you seem to be trying to alter Walkers too much. Both simply need a points decrease (of the actual model and maybe upgrades too), Deff Dreads need to be able to be taken in squads and Kans need the cowardly rule scrapped (they're in big metal walkers for gods sake!). And they need 'Ere we go if they don't already have it (can't remember - never used them).

Just food for thought, and thanks for starting this discussion

Thiis.

They can get 'ere we go via the Dread Mob formation, but I absolutely hate the new practice of giving units the stuff they need to function well only when in these formations (looking at you W!G supplement)

Otherwise, maybe a few tweaks (ramshackle, rolling scrap pile etc etc), squads, being able to take not as heavy support and a steep price cut and your golden.

The stompa needs a points drop and a void shield generator added to protect it from str d shooting.

Just use the Kustom Stompa. The one in apocalypse is terrible and overpriced. Kustom Stompa is better, cheaper, more fun and I think it can get void shields (that might be the mek stompa)

S: D headbutt. Oh, yes that'd be so orky

Yep, on the second thought, +1 to jink is worth 15 pts and not 10 - even for 10-10-10 flyers. Besides, bombers benefit from jink quite a lot. I think i'll make it 15 pts for bombers and 10 pts for dakkaplane.

Flash gits and ap-shenanigans...yep. I start to lean towards changing this stuff back to roll ap after you choose target - even though, it somewhat invalidates them. Will drop the pts to 22, i think. Plan to make the freebota formation bonus - able to reroll ap dice. Cause master-crafted is a pain to resolve.

Calling WAAAGH every turn would have been too good for just taking 1 model. It's a requirement met when you take lots of stuff - horde detachment or greentide.

I'm changing walkers with formations in mind. I think that 'ere we go is a great bonus that makes taking an expensive walker formation worth it. Kanz do need a point drop and i gave it to them. But dreads are allready cheap for av12 walker standards. How much cheaper should they be? 60-70 pts? Ain't it too low? I think that ramshakkle and being able to squadron is allready enough for them. The majority of changes are about wargear. And this changes are not about making some unit better taking this wargear. It's all about making the wargear itself situationally useful so that you could slap your extra armor bits on something and not regret about it. Or finally use a long-forgotten stikkbomb chukka or grabbing klaw and a wrekking ball. And that you could finally paint your planes RED so they could go fasta and jink betta.

I don't want to give +1 to FNP with Cybork bodies. Allready stated it. Don't want decuriorks. +1 to fnp would be a property of Supa-Cybork relic and that's it.

Naughts - i think that they are as massive as a superheavy for current game standards. Note, however, that i've made them much weaker - they're slower, can't stomp as good - means, can't insta-kill something with a stomp which is very annoying imo - can't kill half the army with an explosion. They're somewhere in between the large heavy regular vehicles and superheavies. Just the place they should occupy with their current point cost.

Stompa - don't know nothing bout stompas. As i've said before, it's totally up to you, guyz. Need your ideas to proceed with Stompa.

Old ramshakkle - covered in one of the older posts. As fun as it is, it won't work all that great in 7-th with hullpoint system.

Canz do not need to loose cowardly grots. If something, it's a rule that fits them perfectly fluffwise. They can even run away in fluff. It just needs to be represented in their point cost.

About relic changes. I don't think that unlimited relics should be allowed in the first place. They're supposed to be rare. But some relics are quite supplementary in our book. DSS - 5 pts. As cool as it is, it's not something you use relics for. And once again, like with other wargear, i want to inspire variety. In codex DLS is so much above Killchoppa and Blitzbike for a fighting character that you don't see them at all. I think that i've made both a Killchoppa and Blitzbike competitive. Blitzbike with skilled rider can be used to create a potent biker deathstar. Access to 2+ cover saves is well worth sacraficing DLS goodness. Killchoppa with ap3, as suggested by Grimskul, looks like a great relic for a combat warboss. DSS and Fixer Uppers taken in addition to other stuff only add to variety. Anywayz, i wanted to end the domination of DLS and i think we've made it. Time shall tell. Luckilly, we're not GW and can easilly change stuff that doesn't fit our vision on tabletop, right

I'm changing walkers with formations in mind. I think that 'ere we go is a great bonus that makes taking an expensive walker formation worth it. Kanz do need a point drop and i gave it to them. But dreads are allready cheap for av12 walker standards. How much cheaper should they be? 60-70 pts? Ain't it too low? I think that ramshakkle and being able to squadron is allready enough for them.

How about 75 points? Thats what they cost in Dread Mob. Still not sure if its cheap enough but from an apoc point of view I'll take it

They don't have ramshakkle there I think it should be a theme for ground ork vehicles, really. Something like an army specific rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Changed snazzguns back to: roll ap after choosing target. Lowered it's cost a bit.
Warbosses and Big Meks take it for 5 pts and 8 pts for a master-crafted one.

Ok, 76 points - a 6+ 'save' for penetrating hits isn't something I want to waste my time rolling dice for let alone paying points for.

Absolutely hate rules like that. Its like when my boyz mob gets charged so I roll *60* dice to kill one attacking model. Or when I fail leadership and have to roll another six sets of dice to resolve mob rule. Bleh

Well, i like rolling dice