Realtime board game with piles of aliens to kill seems to sum this one up pretty succinctly.
There's videos on the page if you're interested in specifics.
Made by Artipia out of Greece, who've done quite a few board games and Kickstarters.
Figures look to be decent- Rahdo has casts in the videos to use. Creator says most grunts hit between 30-40mm. Bosses closer to 60mm.
A diagram of all the components, including all those bosses and other special units to fight:
Spoiler:
The game comes with 20 of each of these grunt types.
However there's also big stuff like this coming (and free, no less)...
Artipia Games aren't too bad KS wise, in terms of their campaigns. At least I don't recall having an issue with the one game I backed.
There are a couple red flags for me, it comes with 80+ miniatures but the initial funding goal is $34K which seems really low. The miniatures aren't bad but they don't really draw me in, unfortunately the designs don't really scale or mix with any other miniatures that I have either so I don't have the added ability to mix with other games.
I watched the initial run through of game play. The mechanics for using weapons, having a time limit to roll to try to create a "real time action game" seem extremely too random. I understand it is probably trying to be built similar to how the XCom Board Games do their turns, time based. I am not sure I entirely like that style of game-play. I understand it is supposed to simulate the frantic feeling of mobs of creatures attacking and split second decision timing. I don't mind the frantic pace but the dice mechanics for actions seem entirely too random. I like randomness to a degree but I don't like that almost the entire gameplay appears to be based on that.
Daaaaaaaaamn. Each player turn boils down to 2 minutes of action. I can only imagine how intense it will get.
Very cool setup. Board has the enemy AI movement patterns built into it from the get go. Maps play differently too. One is open terrain, while the other is a choke point through a building.
Characters all have various ways to change how they play.
Dice are constantly rolled, used as resources to do various functions- drag objectives, destroy locations, equip items, scavenge... and depending on how the icon is labeled, you can possibly lose that die for the remainder of the player turn, in effect limiting your resources/ actions.
Bosses seem to mess with how the game is played as well. Rahdo talks about how the one dude with the whip causes all the minions around him to surge forward, and whenever a model reaches an occupied space, it pushes the current occupant into the next square, which will then in turn cause chain reactions, eventually pushing them in to the player. Players take damage for getting pushed back by the aliens. Some have tons of life and require players to really concentrate fire on it- which becomes difficult as you have to roll specific dice configurations to fire, with more dice needed for fancier weapons (or crazy alien tech), which you may not even have many of because you were locking dice in to power up a gear card or drag along a rescued objective. Decisions, decisions, DECISIONS!
Alien varieties are interesting too. Some have special effects, some don't. Hell, the spawn pool becomes the spawn zone, ends up going mobile and slowly moving forward, continuing to put the pressure on the players as the aliens are coming closer and closer every turn. Plus there's hoards of them. Constantly. Every turn.
Intense is the only word I can think of to describe it. Plan as much as you need, figure out what you do, hit the timer, and it's GO GO GO GO GO. I love that the alien phase is nice and leisurely too.
Rahdo REALLY liked it. He couldn't stop gushing about it. Said it took the concepts of games like Escape and XCOM and really refined them.
Barzam wrote: I watched the gameplay vids. Looks wild and frantic. I just wish the designs were a bit more to my liking.
It really was wild. I think this will go over well in our family too.
Also, a new challenger appeared:
You can also get both available bosses for 30, which is 5 off of each then.
These mega bosses as the creators called them are huge! I'm guessing they've got at least a 4 square footprint. Not sure how big each square is on the map though. It was also mentioned that there might be a few more of these massive mega bosses before things finish up.
Current stretch goals are for advanced versions of the basic aliens, which are the same sculpts in different colors, but with nastier abilities. Not surprising they're going to go for same sculpts. Got to recoup those costs somehow!
Joyboozer wrote: Free shipping worldwide? Is this campaign too good to be true!
Too good to be true and nothing but renders has burnt me before.
Fool me once...
As seen in the video, all the models have also been 3D printed. They are also ready to get in the mold, so the delivery date for November is realistic.
First boss up there, "Breedar" is already unlocked, and the second one is neat goal that will probably be unlocked next week- backers get to name it.
Also unlocked the first backer related stretch, which throws a new alien weapon into the mix.
This thing does seem to be building some steady momentum. I recommend everyone check out the gameplay video of Rahdo's on the actual KS page. He does a good job explaining everything, and shows just how wild and frantic things can get.
I guess we forgot to add the latest stuff. The name the boss thing will be called the Chronovore since it eats up 20 seconds off the clock.
These have been tossed in the box.
And these will be there in the next few days as well.
There's also going to be the (inevitable) expansion revealed soon. This character is a teaser from it.
Today they released another teaser character- this is a bot handler, who can basically dump the robot anywhere on the map and let it do its thing.
They have separate inventories but share life as well as dice, which means what might be a lousy roll for one character can be used on the both instead.
I, like everyone else, got this for the minis. I don't care about the melted snowman above or any of the other generic soldiers. I was looking forward to the aliens, but jesus christ, they look exactly look the wax animal blobs you get from the vending machine at the zoo:
One of each soldier~ we love how the detail is depicted in them
That's not me being a sarcastic donkey-cave, that's the actual caption they use for the awful pic. They already have my money, why are they being dicks about it?
I'm glad I stuck with my gut and didn't get into this. They had no experience with miniatures so I didn't have faith plastic would be good. The renders were ok if it would have been resin but moving to plastic, the details would have needed to been more refined.
Mymearan wrote: Well, they look like board game minis. Better than meeples but not much more.
I agree that they are definitely board game miniatures, which is what I would have expected since they aren't a miniatures game company. I just wish board games would stop advertising board game miniatures as, "amazing highly detailed miniatures".
These look like board game minis after they've been sitting outside in my car for a week. (Which reminds me -- I better get my games out of my car from two days ago!
CMON's upped the ante for miniatures, and even FFG has much better detail than they did one edition ago.
Didn't back this one partially for the wrong reasons. Hope this other KS I'm backing based on the renders doesn't fall flat...
I am sorry to bring this to you but both CMON and FFG are not exactly the representatives of the average bard game company, if nothing else their products are considered by some boardgamers as expensive and excessive.
For boardgame pieces they look good and Artipia never advertise them as wargame figures, I feel there is a lot of issues with wargamers entering boardgames territory expecting wargame products and maybe this is the niche CMON covers with their products.
They claim the minis look better in person, maybe, I will have to wait and see, to be honest I backed this expecting a boardgame and baordgame pieces and to sample what Drawlabs can do.
PsychoticStorm wrote: For boardgame pieces they look good and Artipia never advertise them as wargame figures, I feel there is a lot of issues with wargamers entering boardgames territory expecting wargame products and maybe this is the niche CMON covers with their products.
Artipia advertised them using renders that are blatantly unrepresentative of the product they actually produced. Don't try to blame wargamers for Artipia's own deceptive conduct.
The renders looked soft to me, I am not sure how unrepresentative they are, especially given the quality of the pics.
My comment still stands wargamers expect wargame quality miniatures from a boardgame, frankly I did the same when Level 7 got released, saw it at GenCon and said the models are awful, after a couple of years experience and a growing study of the boardgames field, I understand my judgement of it was too harsh.
I don't think wargamers are the problem... using renders and resin masters as representative of the final product is. There is a huge chasm between what was shown in the campaign and how these figures turned out. That's also why I didn't pledge, they hadn't shown what kind of quality they could produce. If these had been shown as-is, they wouldn't have raised a fraction as much, imo...
I'll tell you, my exact line of thinking when I saw this one was "too good to be true". I expected a non-delivery but this is on-par. I will say, that if I bought my boys this board game at Wal-Mart or whatever, then I would think that those are decent quality for a board game. I 100% agree though that the stuff shown in the previews is far crisper and a far departure.
I have a few rules for backing KS.
1. Do I see finished rules and/or production level minis?
2. Do I have to back for more than $100 to get anything worth having?
3. Is this somethig I don't already have a ton of?
If any of these are no, I'll usually not back or only back for an add-on or two. I sincerely suggest other people who frequently find themselves on kickstarter create a set of rules or guidelines too as it can help manage expectations and heartache.
Many lols to be had from folks needing to post how they totally knew better! Super helpful and interesting to read!
It's a gamble, and I lost this one. I've gotten wonderful minis from amateur nobodies and gotten garbage or burned by known names with a team of experienced passionate gaming folks.
Having caution towards what i throw money at would certainly have kept this from happening, but i would have lost out on awesome deals or KS only print runs. Maybe next time :(
That Project Elite ad banner is taunting me...also found this ringing endorsement for themselves:
"Drawlab Entertainment will manufacture these miniatures in-house ensuring the best outcome, providing hobby-game miniatures in a board game!"
It was the nice renders that drew people in, and the outright lying that kept them. There isn't an ork face sad enough
PsychoticStorm wrote: I am sorry to bring this to you but both CMON and FFG are not exactly the representatives of the average bard game company, if nothing else their products are considered by some boardgamers as expensive and excessive.
Some, but not this one. I'm *very* happy with my Zombicide miniatures for both detail and cost-per-figure, and Eldritch Horror is *the* most-played boardgame from my boardgaming closet.
I could really care less about the "average" board game company. Like my KS pledges, I only purchase from companies which offer the best games at the best prices. Although they seem to all have zombies for some reason.
The game would have been interesting with or without the minis, but not for $85 fething dollars! Looks like fun to be had after one proxies the blobs with spess mahrines, gaunts and stealers.
I am happy to pass judgement now, where it might possibly make a difference. If they've cranked these out in house, just for Essen, then its too late for those poor Essen bastards but the rest of of might have a chance. If we whine hard enough!
For boardgame pieces they look good and Artipia never advertise them as wargame figures,.
However they advertised them, the final product bears little resemblance to the quality of the renders shown during the campaign. And however they chose to advertise them, the company behind these would have to have been seriously not paying attention if they didn't realise that a portion of their backers were in solely for the miniatures... so it was on them to make sure that there was no confusion over what sort of quality the final product would be.
ArtIsGreat wrote: I am happy to pass judgement now, where it might possibly make a difference. If they've cranked these out in house, just for Essen, then its too late for those poor Essen bastards but the rest of of might have a chance. If we whine hard enough!
Plastic tooling costs a lot -and besides the production slots it takes up a lot of time too!-, I seriously doubt whining would do anything. Not interested in aliens nor defending anyone but when I had seen this the game looked fun; 40K Tyrranid players and painters will probably not like their rewards, boardgamers imo will however.
I have a few rules for backing KS.
1. Do I see finished rules and/or production level minis?
2. Do I have to back for more than $100 to get anything worth having?
3. Is this somethig I don't already have a ton of?
If any of these are no, I'll usually not back or only back for an add-on or two.
Good to know! :-D
ced1106 wrote: I could really care less about the "average" board game company. Like my KS pledges, I only purchase from companies which offer the best games at the best prices. Although they seem to all have zombies for some reason.
For boardgame pieces they look good and Artipia never advertise them as wargame figures,.
However they advertised them, the final product bears little resemblance to the quality of the renders shown during the campaign. And however they chose to advertise them, the company behind these would have to have been seriously not paying attention if they didn't realise that a portion of their backers were in solely for the miniatures... so it was on them to make sure that there was no confusion over what sort of quality the final product would be.
Personally I backed it to see what Drawlab can really deliver, I will not say I am enthusiast about the results, though the pics are bad, but I maintain they targeted boardgamers, they delivered quality boardgamers (and not wargamers who play also boardgames) will find acceptable and their target audience were never wargamers.
The renders were from the start soft and frankly this is the detail they would deliver, as I said these figures will probably be ok or good for boardgame, I would personally wish better.
PsychoticStorm wrote: ... but I maintain they targeted boardgamers, they delivered quality boardgamers (and not wargamers who play also boardgames) will find acceptable ...
I think that would depend entirely on whether or not those boardgamers purchased on the strength of the renders shown during the campaign.
If I saw this on the shelf in my local store, I probably wouldn't even question the quality of the sculpts. I wouldn't buy it specifically for the miniatures, but if the game looked good, the quality of the pieces wouldn't be that big a turnoff... Prettier pieces are nice, but not essential, so long as you can tell what is what.
It's showing those renders, and then delivering those casts that is the problem.
The average customer has no way of knowing (nor any particular reason to know) how much the choice of material, or the choice of casting company, will impact the level of variation from sculpt to final production model. If companies are going to use renders to promote their product, it is entirely their responsiblity to ensure that they make it clear to their potential customers before money changes hands if the final product won't look anything like the renders.
Agreed, on hindsight somebody, even me, should have pointed out the detail on renders was too shallow and it should have been twice as deep to have the detail needed.
The average customer has no way of knowing (nor any particular reason to know) how much the choice of material, or the choice of casting company, will impact the level of variation from sculpt to final production model.
Actually I'm not sure that's entirely true, in our KS-1 we had both been asked and stated that we will keep on working with Renedra for our plastics, same goes for our KS-2. Backers are more familiar and asking more questions, which imo is a very good thing because it dictates what the project creator is getting the money for.
If companies are going to use renders to promote their product, it is entirely their responsiblity to ensure that they make it clear to their potential customers before money changes hands if the final product won't look anything like the renders.
Every manufacturer is being held acountable for what he/she delivers and that should be remembered in every new project said creator launches. In this case Artipia is probably going to deliver in a timely manner and will be judged for the quality of the rewards. Again, we are not defending anyone (and who are we to defend anyone anyway) but not all backers have/ask the same standards. Maybe a rappresentative of Artipia and/or Drawlab is going to eventually chim in this thread, I'm pretty sure they are too busy answering their 2000+ backer's pm's...
Claiming to be able to make "hobby-game miniatures" had a lot to do with the expectation. Also the $20 single figure add-on would not be expected of a gak boardgame piece.
Misleading shots like this don't help
Reflection in the table and everything? Cmonnnnnnn
Actually I'm not sure that's entirely true, in our KS-1 we had both been asked and stated that we will keep on working with Renedra for our plastics, same goes for our KS-2. Backers are more familiar and asking more questions, which imo is a very good thing because it dictates what the project creator is getting the money for.
I don't disagree with that. What I probably should have said is that it shouldn't be expected that potential backers will know that stuff.
Some will, and that's great... But it's potentially an expensive lesson for the rest, and that becomes a PR disaster for the company involved, and had a knock on effect... For example (although I accept that it's just anecdotal evidence) I broke my usual rule against buying on the strength of renders for Sedition Wars. The mess that resulted from that has left me extremely reluctant to put money towards anything that isn't showing actual, physical miniatures in future.
Well Sedition wars did show some actual models and it was a disaster.
I am not sure asking for production models would help in most cases the funding is done for the models and the models would never happen if the funding was not done, or better, if the models are done the KS is simply a preorder.
Those models are shamefully bad. Dollar store plastic army men have more distinct detail. Even as board game pieces, they're garbage. I'll go so far as to say that this whole thing feels like a scam to me.
Actually I'm not sure that's entirely true, in our KS-1 we had both been asked and stated that we will keep on working with Renedra for our plastics, same goes for our KS-2. Backers are more familiar and asking more questions, which imo is a very good thing because it dictates what the project creator is getting the money for.
I don't disagree with that. What I probably should have said is that it shouldn't be expected that potential backers will know that stuff.
Some will, and that's great... But it's potentially an expensive lesson for the rest, and that becomes a PR disaster for the company involved, and had a knock on effect... For example (although I accept that it's just anecdotal evidence) I broke my usual rule against buying on the strength of renders for Sedition Wars. The mess that resulted from that has left me extremely reluctant to put money towards anything that isn't showing actual, physical miniatures in future.
We agree on the first part, projects that attract a lot of people will inevitably have some more and some less informed.
On the second part based on the example you wrote and without wanting to derail the thread of Project: Elite , it would be appropriate to point out that neither renders nor actual physical sculpts are as important compared to what the final product the backer is going to receive is. So even if you see a physical sculpt, that's not necessary the production model you will be receiving.
Renders can tell what you're getting in your hands as long as there is faith in the project creator. How does one mesure faith? Well, that's going to derail this even more so better not get into it... :-)
I tried Googling up "render vs physical sculpt" but couldn't find anything, so I quickly put this together from one of our own (sorry but didn't have better pics from a same angle)
and there's also a Youtube video with the actual mini, and I mean a production mini if anyone wants an even better look.
Mind you at the time there wasn't even a render(!), we had prepared only the artwork and signaled the commissioned sculptor and material of the final miniature. Didn't stop people from pledging.
What will count is how many people will be satisfied with the result, and I think that's what PsychoticStorm is also trying to say. Artipia's future will be decided on whether backers support them again in the future, no?
What will count is how many people will be satisfied with the result, and I think that's what PsychoticStorm is also trying to say. Artipia's future will be decided on whether backers support them again in the future, no?
Yes, thanks.
They have a lot of goodwill on boardgame world from their Among the stars line, can this save them from this? will this be considered acceptable among non backers? will it sell? I do not know, but Drawlabs have lost a lot of goodwill from this one for sure.
Nice comparison on the render/ real dragon, shows how deep the detail must be for it to transfer.
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: On the second part based on the example you wrote and without wanting to derail the thread of Project: Elite , it would be appropriate to point out that neither renders nor actual physical sculpts are as important compared to what the final product the backer is going to receive is. So even if you see a physical sculpt, that's not necessary the production model you will be receiving.
I wasn't talking about physical sculpts, but physical miniatures.
I'm happy to back based on a 3d print of a render (after consideration of the material being used) ... because that at least gives you some indication as to how the miniature is actually going to look, and whether or not that awesome digital sculpt is actually even physically possible. I'm just not prepared to go solely off the render... because ultimately, a render is not really any more useful for determining what the final product is going to look like then a concept sketch is. It's just too far up the design process chain to tell you anything other than 'Here's a nice design that we would like to make in miniature'. It's useless for determinining the eventual quality of that miniature.
A physical master model still doesn't tell you the whole story, but it's closer to the finale.
insaniak wrote: I'm happy to back based on a 3d print of a render (after consideration of the material being used) ... because that at least gives you some indication as to how the miniature is actually going to look, and whether or not that awesome digital sculpt is actually even physically possible. I'm just not prepared to go solely off the render... because ultimately, a render is not really any more useful for determining what the final product is going to look like then a concept sketch is. It's just too far up the design process chain to tell you anything other than 'Here's a nice design that we would like to make in miniature'. It's useless for determinining the eventual quality of that miniature.
The problems *I* have with a render are that I can't tell what parts of a render can or cannot become the end model, and something about incompatible file types between the artist and the manufacturer. At least with concept art, you intuitively know that the 3D sculpt isn't going to look exactly like the 2D artwork. Sure, we're *told* renders, as well as resins, won't look like the final production model, but how much not final will it look like? I don't know enough about renders to have any idea!
But, I'll agree with SM that, at some point you need "faith". Or, rather, you need to know if the project is using a sculptor who knows how to make a miniature for production. Not to mention a creator who knows how to manage the other aspects of a project. Which is why I look for creators with experience in making plastic miniatures before backing them.
Which would have resulted in backing this project.
So... any yellow or red flags which popped up during this project which would have told us not to back? Customer comments from their previous KS and an Essen deadline were sorta yellow flags, but I'm sorta iffy on those as con vs. Artipia's previous experience with plastic miniatures.
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: On the second part based on the example you wrote and without wanting to derail the thread of Project: Elite , it would be appropriate to point out that neither renders nor actual physical sculpts are as important compared to what the final product the backer is going to receive is. So even if you see a physical sculpt, that's not necessary the production model you will be receiving.
I wasn't talking about physical sculpts, but physical miniatures.
Sorry I had understood physical sculpts, my bad then. :-)
The problems *I* have with a render are that I can't tell what parts of a render can or cannot become the end model, and something about incompatible file types between the artist and the manufacturer. At least with concept art, you intuitively know that the 3D sculpt isn't going to look exactly like the 2D artwork. Sure, we're *told* renders, as well as resins, won't look like the final production model, but how much not final will it look like? I don't know enough about renders to have any idea!
But, I'll agree with SM that, at some point you need "faith". Or, rather, you need to know if the project is using a sculptor who knows how to make a miniature for production. Not to mention a creator who knows how to manage the other aspects of a project. Which is why I look for creators with experience in making plastic miniatures before backing them.
Which would have resulted in backing this project.
So... any yellow or red flags which popped up during this project which would have told us not to back? Customer comments from their previous KS and an Essen deadline were sorta yellow flags, but I'm sorta iffy on those as con vs. Artipia's previous experience with plastic miniatures.
A render from a company with experience is "almost" the same with the final model, the detail will be deeper because of casting technicalities, but other than that the same. I will have to point out that Artipia is not the one who did the miniatures but Drawlabs.
"Artipia Games has designed and developed Project: ELITE. Our co-publisher, Drawlab Entertainment is responsible for the development and production of the game's miniatures."
Post some gushing pictures of marshmellow marines after months of silence, ignore incredible negative reaction in comments, and top the day off by dropping all blame and responsibility on Drawlabs.
I don't think I'm being dramatic when I say Greece deserves everything that happens to it.
ArtIsGreat wrote: "Artipia Games has designed and developed Project: ELITE. Our co-publisher, Drawlab Entertainment is responsible for the development and production of the game's miniatures."
Post some gushing pictures of marshmellow marines after months of silence, ignore incredible negative reaction in comments, and top the day off by dropping all blame and responsibility on Drawlabs.
I don't think I'm being dramatic when I say Greece deserves everything that happens to it.
I certainly do not agree with their attitude in going silent nor commencing to shift blame, let alone not manning up and responding to backers which I find a horrible attitude (end results will determine how crappy their product is), but isn't that last line you wrote stretching it a bit?
ArtIsGreat wrote: "Artipia Games has designed and developed Project: ELITE. Our co-publisher, Drawlab Entertainment is responsible for the development and production of the game's miniatures."
Post some gushing pictures of marshmellow marines after months of silence, ignore incredible negative reaction in comments, and top the day off by dropping all blame and responsibility on Drawlabs.
I don't think I'm being dramatic when I say Greece deserves everything that happens to it.
This is based on a comment somebody on kickstarter did without any backing, how much truth is there we don't know, personally I do hold drawlabs mainly responsible for the miniatures since this was their job, but Artipia should have a saying in if they are acceptable or not (ultimately the customers will determine that, but before they choose with their wallets the publisher has a saying) and I will agree they should be responding to the crisis, they may be doing so they may not we don't know because they do not talk and this is bad for them.
Yes, I would say you are dramatic, uninformed and childish in your last comment, do not link individuals with the disaster a nation endures.
@PsychoticStorm
I on the other hand do hold both equally accountable if the final product received by the backers is what it seems. As I stated earlier some people will not mind but some others will (from the comments so far it's the latter that holds the vast majority), so everyone involved is responsible. It's like saying e.g. "don't blame us, the Chinese don't know what they are doing" but it was you who took the funds and it was your job to check on them.
Another worrying fact I noticed their last update on the miniatures was back on June 2nd, which is almost 4 months(!) ago, and that was only to show a render. Although tooling does take a lot of time I'm no expert on how often or detailed an update must be, but that seems a long lapse imo...
I mentioned my concern about Greece's economy (or rather banks), but that does NOT mean "Greece deserves everything that happens to it." I'm not seeing any link between Artipia's (mis)management of the project and the Greek economy. If you find something, fine, post it, but it's hard enough speculating what went wrong (and how to make sure it won't happen again), then to add side remarks to the discussion.
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: @PsychoticStorm
I on the other hand do hold both equally accountable if the final product received by the backers is what it seems. As I stated earlier some people will not mind but some others will (from the comments so far it's the latter that holds the vast majority), so everyone involved is responsible. It's like saying e.g. "don't blame us, the Chinese don't know what they are doing" but it was you who took the funds and it was your job to check on them.
Another worrying fact I noticed their last update on the miniatures was back on June 2nd, which is almost 4 months(!) ago, and that was only to show a render. Although tooling does take a lot of time I'm no expert on how often or detailed an update must be, but that seems a long lapse imo...
Agreed, Ultimately the publisher is responsible on accepting what the manufacturer produced, that was what I meant, but it was not clear, I am sorry for that.
Hello,
it seems the pictures of Project:ELITE minis did upset a lot of folks, and we can understand that.
They are NOT representative of the final product, and they are debasing it. We do love the miniatures and we think that when you see them up close you will also do. In order not to make you wait until then, we will soon upload some professional photos and some videos that are going to depict the detail on them a little better and (why not) a painted army! We will also remove these images since they are confusing (to say the least).
After making the prototypes, we were also very enthusiastic to procede with the final product, and we took in mind all the international standards to ensure:
the quality of the detail ( reaching up to detail of a few microns)
durability (they are practically unbreakable)
the quality of the material (all have CE , especially for games)
suitability for a real-time game like Project:ELITE.
For this case particularly, we had decided to go for elastic plastic to make sure nobody would be injured in the edges of a hard plastic.
Finally, I want to thank you all for participating in the discussion. We read carefully each comment, and even though some hurt, we are always eager to read your feedback.
After all, your feedback is our most precious resource to become better every day.
Maybe you should have changed the title, then (by the way I've temporarily updated it to reflect the current developments but feel free to change).
I think that's really the problem - people backing these things with the idea that the miniatures alone are worth the price. These are obviously not... but I think even in most cases, it's the fact that they're part of a game that is the draw. But then they shouldn't push the miniatures aspect so much, and just emphasize that they're board game pieces... but that's not what was done here.
I sort of have been leaning towards scam, but these updates make them seem more clueless than conniving, the genuine excitement of showing the mud people followed up by the "one more thing" mic drop ... of more ugly minis taken from across the room.
And hey, why is there a happy meal toy in the middle of their awful minis? Seems a pretty odd way to show scale-OH GEEZ THATS NOT A RANDOM MINI THATS A $20 ADD ON *pukes*
*edit
Unboxing video, maybe the worst ever, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHA-koBIf6Y. Not much detail, but things should look nondescript from tabletop distance, I'm still seeing ugly, especially the reds. I like how his first reaction on pouring out a box of pancake batter is to make sure it is spread out evenly. New theory: All the money was spent on a beautiful purple velvet box lining.
Running out of ways to call things melty. Here's another awful, awful mini.
And a quick thought, when someone says "not to be dramatic" followed by something incredibly dramatic, there's a strong possibility they are not being serious.
I think Drawlab may drop by and defend themselves, I'm certainly not involved (other than being a backer in their project) and not going to do that for them but neither am I going to notice and allow detruction on my company, let alone with our KS-2 coming up!
If you think all Greek companies have the same quality, please have a look at this. Mind you, this is a production model!
If you are still not convinced, please drop by in our comment section in like a couple of months when we have finished delivering and read the comments here.
We'll be happily expecting your opinion on that. Otherwise, kindly rephrase/edit your comment above, it is unjust and insulting.
And a quick thought, when someone says "not to be dramatic" followed by something incredibly dramatic, there's a strong possibility they are not being serious.
And while that's all well and good, maybe dialling it down a touch might be good. Criticism is fine, but we don't want Dakka to be too unwelcoming for the people behind these smaller projects... And when multiple languages are involved, the humour can be lost in translation.
Still nowhere close to the renders shown, but not bad from a distance.
They should totally use that in their promotional materials!
All kidding aside, are there any quotes that say how totally awesome high detailed and wargaming quality miniatures this would all end up being?
These quotes are from the KS page and the main picture on the page promotes the minisas "highly -detailed." I spoilered the pic because it's huge.
Spoiler:
Project: ELITE is scheduled for production in September 2015. Please note that the published product may have differences regarding sizes, quantities, colors and layout because of production limitations and/or adjustments. The miniatures depicted in the campaign may undergo changes/adjustment to ensure a quality product. Drawlab Entertainment will manufacture these miniatures in-house ensuring the best outcome, providing hobby-game miniatures in a board game!
The 80 miniatures included in the main game, the ones offered as stretch rewards and the 43 included in the expansion, are all single-piece miniatures. No glue or extra effort to assemble will be needed. The Mega-boss miniatures are multi-part models but they will also require no glue to assemble.
Drawlab Entertainment is board game publishing company based in Greece, creating the best new games with the most beautiful components, innovating gameplay and fitting themes. Drawlab also manufactures miniatures and special components from plastic and metal, ensuring the best quality for all gamers to enjoy, being responsible for the boardgame Spells of Doom and the Legendary Metal Coins project.
And a quick thought, when someone says "not to be dramatic" followed by something incredibly dramatic, there's a strong possibility they are not being serious.
And while that's all well and good, maybe dialling it down a touch might be good. Criticism is fine, but we don't want Dakka to be too unwelcoming for the people behind these smaller projects... And when multiple languages are involved, the humour can be lost in translation.
So, on topic here, and if you see a post that you think breaks the rules of the site - report it.
Did they really tout the 'high quality miniatures angle' a lot here during the campaign?
The one on the left looks like it is made of that ubiquitous 1980's slime goo they kept on adding to toys.. but dried out a bit. Wow.. yeah, those renders aren't even close to approximating the final quality.
They actually remind me of the old colored "muscle men" toys from the 80's. Not really very close to the renders at all. Glad I stayed away from this one.
Duskland wrote: They actually remind me of the old colored "muscle men" toys from the 80's. Not really very close to the renders at all. Glad I stayed away from this one.
Whoa whoa whoa.
Don't you insult the M.U.S.C.L.E. men like that!
As you can clearly see, their detail was far better:
As you can clearly see, their detail was far better:
No offense meant to the pink muscle men. Just saying that some of the colored mixes they used later on had the same kind of glossy half-melted look that these do.
Runners painted not bad, the dentureless gummy mouth is odd. Biters, not sure what I'm looking at, sort of standing on one leg and hunched over maybe, head looks fine tho. Oh dear christ the shooters... if pro studio painters can't make it not look like gak what hope do the rest of us have! That chest-arm-gun, what a mess.
In what universe is the question ''show more detailed pictures'' answered with pro painted minis? I'm expecting detailed closeups of the box dividers next.
lol, I could've sworn I typed that Muscle Men comparison!!! The ones I always saw were in the quarter machine and they must've been knockoffs or something because they were never that detailed.
Oh, yeah lol, having a pro-painter do the production models is good for some things.. sure. Making people feel better about quality concerns is not one of them. Guys like Wappel or Dwartist could paint a blob of chewing gum and it would look amazing.
ArtIsGreat wrote: In what universe is the question ''show more detailed pictures'' answered with pro painted minis? I'm expecting detailed closeups of the box dividers next.
OK, I'll admit I chuckled at that :-)
Their last update says they are going to post/upload more images of the other miniatures in the next days. I think they'll be smart about it and do it as quickly as possible.
If they are high resolution, clearly lit(/focused) and unpainted (or primed) I think this will clear the issue for everyone. For better or for worse that is...
Having committed a number of mistakes ourselves during the creation of our own campaign, we seach faults to avoid by studying other projects. I think the lesson for creators to be learned from this one is the need of consistency on the updates. Had there been more, all this would have probably been dodged. The delivery date is too close now and the time-window of reaction close to zero, so it's natural the nerves from the backers are getting worse and for good reason.
One is an awful mini, the other, a red poop, can you tell which is which?
Welp, whatever divine miracle atripia was hoping to occur at Essen did not come to pass. Shockingly enough, people picked up their copies, posted more detailed pics, and they were awful. What the hell did they think was going to happen?! Apparently they handed out replacement minis for the red bosses...that were exactly identical to the previous models but less shiny. A full week of damage control and this is what they came up with? If I'm going to be fleeced, I'd at least want the thieves to be cunning, this is just embarrassing. And they put the 3d renders on the back of the box, because not enough people have been suckered I guess.
For the gameplay is king crowd, one lump looks like another so people are apparently having a time figuring which blob to grab. At least they are not poisonous to the touch, I think!
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: I think the lesson for creators to be learned from this one is the need of consistency on the updates.
The lesson to be learned is to pay no more than 50% up front to your manufacturers, and skip Essen if the miniatures don't measure up. MegaConGames, rejected the production plastics for Recon, which were softer than the sample plastic figures they received. MCG said that, because they paid 50% up front, they had leverage over their manufacturer to redo the plastics. I don't know what Artipia and Drawlab's arrangements were between themselves and the miniatures manufacturer. I also don't know if MCG intended to show off Recon at Essen.
As for backers:
* Renders are not miniatures. See also Torn Armor, Shadows of Brimstone.
* Back projects from companies that have experience in the product you're backing.
* Buy miniatures from miniature game companies.
* Back projects with satisfied customers.
* Be wary of companies shooting for Essen or GenCon.
* It's okay to risk money. Just don't risk as much money compared to less risky projects.
* Will you be able to paint all these miniatures? Do you have enough games?
* Would you rather buy another game at the OLGS if it's at a deep discount?
None of these are hard and fast rules, of course. I didn't back P:E also because of the Greecian economy, but it was primarily the first, second, and fourth reasons.
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: I think the lesson for creators to be learned from this one is the need of consistency on the updates.
The lesson to be learned is to pay no more than 50% up front to your manufacturers, and skip Essen if the miniatures don't measure up. MegaConGames, rejected the production plastics for Recon, which were softer than the sample plastic figures they received. MCG said that, because they paid 50% up front, they had leverage over their manufacturer to redo the plastics. I don't know what Artipia and Drawlab's arrangements were between themselves and the miniatures manufacturer. I also don't know if MCG intended to show off Recon at Essen.
Maybe, they said in BGG they will make an update about the situation this week who knows if they will try to fix this situation (which should have never happened)?
As for backers:
* Renders are not miniatures. See also Torn Armor, Shadows of Brimstone.
True, but with this you kill most of the kickstarters from new companies, asking for one or two 3D printed masters though is not a bad idea.
* Back projects from companies that have experience in the product you're backing.
Translation, don't use kickstarter for its intended purpose only as a preorder platform.
* Buy miniatures from miniature game companies.
With the increased demand from boardgames to have miniatures, that means don't back boardgames.
* Back projects with satisfied customers.
Translation, don't use kickstarter for its intended purpose only as a preorder platform.
* Be wary of companies shooting for Essen or GenCon.
??? I guess ??? is this even relevant? the fulfillment day is as much a pressure point as is any con.
* It's okay to risk money. Just don't risk as much money compared to less risky projects.
Like?
* Will you be able to paint all these miniatures? Do you have enough games?
* Would you rather buy another game at the OLGS if it's at a deep discount?
Are these even relevant?
None of these are hard and fast rules, of course. I didn't back P:E also because of the Greecian economy, but it was primarily the first, second, and fourth reasons.
You mention that at every time you can, will you please stop it and stop discriminate at countries, US has a bigger percentage of flopped KS projects, should we avoid any projects from there because of precedence?
* Back projects from companies that have experience in the product you're backing.
Translation, don't use kickstarter for its intended purpose only as a preorder platform.
* Back projects with satisfied customers.
Translation, don't use kickstarter for its intended purpose only as a preorder platform.
Use Kickstarter for its intended purpose and not a single one of these games would get funded. The backers are not the ones who turned Kickstarter into a preorder platform, because the backers aren't the ones offering a catalogue of products up for sale, complete with a price list, to entice people to pledge money.
ArtIsGreat wrote: One is an awful mini, the other, a red poop, can you tell which is which?
Welp, whatever divine miracle atripia was hoping to occur at Essen did not come to pass. Shockingly enough, people picked up their copies, posted more detailed pics, and they were awful. What the hell did they think was going to happen?! Apparently they handed out replacement minis for the red bosses...that were exactly identical to the previous models but less shiny. A full week of damage control and this is what they came up with? If I'm going to be fleeced, I'd at least want the thieves to be cunning, this is just embarrassing. And they put the 3d renders on the back of the box, because not enough people have been suckered I guess.
For the gameplay is king crowd, one lump looks like another so people are apparently having a time figuring which blob to grab. At least they are not poisonous to the touch, I think!
Lol, you are killing me, :-D
Yeah, at this point even those holding some precaution admit that the minis are much lower quality than those promised.
I'm very curious to see how they react to all this. I was thinking if I was in their shoes what would I do, although I think the fault lies on the person who green lighted the mass production after seeing the first test samples.
If they had posted updates earlier, then the reaction would have been foreseen and all this would have never happened.
Blame is not the issue here, fixing the problem is. As I said, I'm very curious to see the reaction of Artipia&Drawlab.
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: I think the fault lies on the person who green lighted the mass production after seeing the first test samples.
If they had posted updates earlier, then the reaction would have been foreseen and all this would have never happened.
That's what is a bit shocking about this - they must have had test shots from the mold... how did they agree to pay for a full production run of those models?
Alpharius wrote: Maybe they were offered a 'discount' if they did so?
Good point. Definitely remembering this one!
Maybe Shieldwolf Miniatures could tell us more about the relationship between a miniatures manufacturer and its customer. I'm under the impression that it's not always amicable. Frex, with Tom Wilfong's dice (and other projects), the manufacturer screwed up the first dice batch, but putting the job back on the queue cost the project a few months delay because the manufacturer was working on other projects. Even a million-dollar KS might be an unimportant customer if the customer won't have a long-term relationship. Green Eye Games and a few other projects mentioned how important it was to have someone on-site at the manufacturer's to make sure they're doing the right job. MegaConGames emphasized their refusal to pay the manufacturer 100% up front, and how the manufacturer's production plastic *wasn't* their sample plastic. Etc., etc.
I swear, I have to stop buying all this plasticrack on KS. When's Cthulhu Wars KS 2 starting?
Each manufacturer deals as he thinks best, due to my prior experience as a businessman I usually opt for 1/3 in advance, 1/3 with the proof sample or advanced WiP report and 1/3 upon completion. That is not necessary the best way but my modus operanti model follows that, otherwise with new collaborators I have even agreed to 50% upfront and 50% on delivery; many consider it common practice but I usually tried to avoid that and move with my modus operanti as explained above.
My understanding however is that Drawlab manufactures in house. I and my Team have a very good idea of what that means due to our casting/manufacturing our resin in our facilities but for the plastics we had to use an outside source. Trust me when I tell you that I had better things to do than catch the plane every time and fly over to Renedra. Yeah sure, the English know what they are doing but if the product is lacking, the fault is 100% ours. Thankfully we have no reason whatsoever to worry concerning plastics and we are very pleased with the professionalism from Renedra but that doesn't mean if things work out on our KS-2 that I won't be flying to London just to make sure. And that's on top of the proof samples they send us anyway.
Duskland wrote: They actually remind me of the old colored "muscle men" toys from the 80's. Not really very close to the renders at all. Glad I stayed away from this one.
Whoa whoa whoa.
Don't you insult the M.U.S.C.L.E. men like that!
As you can clearly see, their detail was far better:
Not to go too far OT, but looking at this picture reminds me of all of those Muscle figures I had, and that their details were actually quite good. Considering their extremely low price.
Anyone know what they were made of? I wonder why no one is currently using that technique for miniatures (in the Bones fashion) today?
I'll keep this moderately on topic by saying that I was a backer at 1$ and feel very much like I dodged a bullet by not going in further. They are welcome to my $1.
Back to the Muscle Men though, I loved those things, had hundreds of 'em!
Check out this guy's site, he's done full on research into Muscle Men:
(and hoped the game had mostly been bought on the strength of the gameplay description, not the minis so they wouldn't get too many complaints)
Well all reports so far are unanimous, great game tied with unfortunately awful models.
I hope they have a good update coming for this mess, one backer went in Spiel and told them that its unacceptable for him to get his pledge with such quality, that hopefully must have hit home.
Wow, that's a packed 5 minutes of coverage on it (from 43:50 - 48:50). All the components made by Artipia Games look high quality (everything except the miniatures). Whereas the miniatures (made by DrawLab) really do not hold up to scrutiny. Here's hoping they can get it resolved like he is implying in the video... I'm really not sure how that could be done, but for the sake of DrawLab getting future work I would think they'd be highly motivated to fix this.
None of these are hard and fast rules, of course. I didn't back P:E also because of the Greecian economy, but it was primarily the first, second, and fourth reasons.
You mention that at every time you can, will you please stop it and stop discriminate at countries, US has a bigger percentage of flopped KS projects, should we avoid any projects from there because of precedence?
How, exactly, is this discrimination?
Businesses rely upon banks, and I think it's safe to assume Greek businesses rely upon Greek banks.
Back in July, Greek citizens couldn't even make a cash withdrawl from an ATM. Ciizens weren't even allowed to transfer money IN or OUT of the country.
What if Artipia or Drawlabs needed a sudden short-term cash flow and didn't have the money? Many small companies use banks for cash. Maybe they had money stashed somewhere else, but I don't know or wish to speculate.
If ANY country was in financial crisis -- including America's -- I would avoid investing or loaning money to businesses in their country as much as possible. That's why many investors sell or build up cash during a recession.
By your reasoning, the American economy must be worse than Greece's. Pretty sure that ain't so. Must be the year before an election year.
Personal favorite quote: 'They are going to do everything they can to make this right...no promises tho'
If SOMEONE, not necessarily me, were to go nuts and burn Drawlabs down to the ground, would they just dig up the minis and ship them out as-is? Who could tell the difference?!
That's enough discussion of international economic factors, please. There is no evidence it played a role in the miniatures here, and there are a lot more relevant things to discuss.
If anyone wishes to continue or respond to that line of discussion, please take it to PM and do not post it in the thread. Thanks.
Hmmm... they still haven't posted the update they promised. Maybe they are re-calculating costs?
@ArtIsGreat Lol, I can't see why you are complaining. Be honest, you are getting some kicks out of this after all, aren't you? See? Isn't this fun? :-p
Btw, exalted for repetitive good sense of humor.
Maybe they listened? maybe it was drilled into their heads, no matter the cause this is an at least hopeful announcement.
Message from Drawlab: Houston, we had a problem
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Hey, everyone,
Essen Spiel ’15 is over and many people had the chance to visit both our booths, watch and play Project:ELITE and let us know of their opinion both in gameplay and in the main issue we have been discussing, the miniatures.
Feedback received
We always want to hear your feedback, and we had the chance to receive a lot of it during the past days and we really want to thank each one of you, personally, that spent your time expressing your opinion.
Before Essen, after reading your comments we decided that the boss miniatures had too much glare on them, making it harder to see all the detail on them and for that reason exactly we decided to run a super fast production of replacements and take them to Essen with us. That allowed us to give improved versions of the bosses, were all the detail was visible at the first glance. The detail was there all the time, but now it was easier to see.
With that in our luggage (literally), we were really looking forward to see your reactions to our miniatures in person. During the fair, there were some positive comments, but also many negative ones. The best part about it was that many people told us exactly what they thought was problematic and we took that into account.
The decision
And that was it. During the fair, we discussed with Artipia Games, and we both agreed that we will not deliver you a product you are not happy about.
We are going back to the lab, and we are going to change the miniatures, to make them better, with cleaner detail. We know ways to do it, but we will make some R&D first to ensure the best outcome. This very week, we have planned a business trip to test new raw materials and new technologies to apply in our manufacturing.
What happens now
We understand that many people have already received Project:ELITE from Essen. These will not be excluded from the new miniatures, we will try to find the best way for them to be able to upgrade to the new miniatures we are going to make, and we are going to announce exactly how this will work later on. We have also received some messages of people who prefer to receive their games as soon as possible and do not mind the current miniatures. For that reason, we want to take a poll and we will try to figure the best way to make it work for all you.
Communications
Communication has been slow for quite a while now. It was hard for Artipia to respond to some of your questions since Drawlab is responsible for the miniature part. For that exact reason, a new email account (ran from Drawlab) will be made so that you can send your questions there and staff of Drawlab will respond directly. We are going to let you know when it is up and running when we are going to be ready for your questions.
Our Attitude
We want to make a quick note that we love this project as much as you do. We are grateful for your support all along, since the project couldn't exist without you. Our intention is not to stop before we reach a quality that is not only acceptable, but one that you will be more than happy about. We want you to be proud of your choice to support Project:ELITE.
Thank you for your support.
~Drawlab Entertainment ~
Haha, the GLARE was hiding all the detail, that level of denial is amazing. Doesn't look like refunds will ever be in the cards, but maybe some better minis sometime in the unspecified future.
Unless this is all a delaying tactic while they stuff my moneys into briefcases and make for the border. Yeah, that feels right, someone better alert whatever countries border Greece, stat.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They made a poll https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/20613786#20613786 Of course its on BGG, why go by the KS comments from people who actually have money riding on this when you could just open it up to any tool who feels like weighing in?
BGG poll wrote:
What is your preferred solution after reading the new Kickstarter update?
Receive the game with miniatures as-is, as soon as possible
Receive the game with re-cast miniatures, regardless of how long it takes Receive the game with the current miniatures now and pay a shipping fee to get replacement miniatures later
'Send as-is' at a shocking 0.8 % of the vote, I don't understand this world or the people in it. Drawlab just gave a definitive answer to anyone looking for a refund in the KS comments, its not going to happen.
Drawlab wrote:
"Thanks for all the comments guys, we are going to have more frequent updates for you from now on"
As I said this was probably the major factor that led to all this. I think a lesson learned... :-)
Now I think it's just a matter of time they fix this and provide what was promised, I can understand the heat generated by @ArtIsGreat and from what I read most people share his opinion.
Let's see if the problem gets fixed in a reasonable timetable and results, my guess is 4 months from now.
Yes, they couldn't be bothered to make their own poll, they did specifically point it out in the KS comments and urged people to participate, so close enough yeah?
Things are starting to look better. Here's the latest photos.
That's one of the newly sculpted figures covered in primer to help bring out the details.
Here's that figure minus the primer in the foreground, with the abysmal sculpt in the back that you can't make any detail out on.
Sad thing is this is probably going to be delayed until February or March, but I think that's a fair trade off for getting figures that actually look like what they are supposed to.
For some reason, the parting / mold line along the edges of the talons / etc stands out a lot more in the primer'ed pic, I'm not sure why it isn't as visible in the bare pic?
Still, a vast improvement, and something they could be proud to deliver to their backers (imo). Good to see them addressing this!
I agree that the primed picture REALLY stands out looking a lot clearer detail- wise.
Then again, most of my figures have a lot more distinguishable features after I've primed them, especially if I use a light grey like they did (which I usually do).
Another thing to note is that the red color they used is not the final color, so hopefully whatever they do end up using isn't as glossy as lets the detail really come to the forefront.
Using games like Rum & Bones as an example, the figures looked very lackluster and soft when viewed in photos, while in person I thought they were really nice and sharp.
Sometimes those cameras can be tricky photographing plastics.
Did they mention where the money's coming from to redo the miniatures? Did they have to make new molds, is the manufacturer swallowing part of the cost, etc.? TIA!
They won't give me a refund so I'm rooting for them on this, that is a pretty acceptable mini.
Were I a cynic I would be raising an eyebrow over how they suddenly learned how to take a close-up, in focus, well lit picture...now that they have detail worth showing.
