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These look like board game minis after they've been sitting outside in my car for a week. (Which reminds me -- I better get my games out of my car from two days ago!
CMON's upped the ante for miniatures, and even FFG has much better detail than they did one edition ago.
Didn't back this one partially for the wrong reasons. Hope this other KS I'm backing based on the renders doesn't fall flat...
I am sorry to bring this to you but both CMON and FFG are not exactly the representatives of the average bard game company, if nothing else their products are considered by some boardgamers as expensive and excessive.
For boardgame pieces they look good and Artipia never advertise them as wargame figures, I feel there is a lot of issues with wargamers entering boardgames territory expecting wargame products and maybe this is the niche CMON covers with their products.
They claim the minis look better in person, maybe, I will have to wait and see, to be honest I backed this expecting a boardgame and baordgame pieces and to sample what Drawlabs can do.
PsychoticStorm wrote: For boardgame pieces they look good and Artipia never advertise them as wargame figures, I feel there is a lot of issues with wargamers entering boardgames territory expecting wargame products and maybe this is the niche CMON covers with their products.
Artipia advertised them using renders that are blatantly unrepresentative of the product they actually produced. Don't try to blame wargamers for Artipia's own deceptive conduct.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
The renders looked soft to me, I am not sure how unrepresentative they are, especially given the quality of the pics.
My comment still stands wargamers expect wargame quality miniatures from a boardgame, frankly I did the same when Level 7 got released, saw it at GenCon and said the models are awful, after a couple of years experience and a growing study of the boardgames field, I understand my judgement of it was too harsh.
I don't think wargamers are the problem... using renders and resin masters as representative of the final product is. There is a huge chasm between what was shown in the campaign and how these figures turned out. That's also why I didn't pledge, they hadn't shown what kind of quality they could produce. If these had been shown as-is, they wouldn't have raised a fraction as much, imo...
I'll tell you, my exact line of thinking when I saw this one was "too good to be true". I expected a non-delivery but this is on-par. I will say, that if I bought my boys this board game at Wal-Mart or whatever, then I would think that those are decent quality for a board game. I 100% agree though that the stuff shown in the previews is far crisper and a far departure.
I have a few rules for backing KS.
1. Do I see finished rules and/or production level minis?
2. Do I have to back for more than $100 to get anything worth having?
3. Is this somethig I don't already have a ton of?
If any of these are no, I'll usually not back or only back for an add-on or two. I sincerely suggest other people who frequently find themselves on kickstarter create a set of rules or guidelines too as it can help manage expectations and heartache.
Many lols to be had from folks needing to post how they totally knew better! Super helpful and interesting to read!
It's a gamble, and I lost this one. I've gotten wonderful minis from amateur nobodies and gotten garbage or burned by known names with a team of experienced passionate gaming folks.
Having caution towards what i throw money at would certainly have kept this from happening, but i would have lost out on awesome deals or KS only print runs. Maybe next time :(
That Project Elite ad banner is taunting me...also found this ringing endorsement for themselves:
"Drawlab Entertainment will manufacture these miniatures in-house ensuring the best outcome, providing hobby-game miniatures in a board game!"
It was the nice renders that drew people in, and the outright lying that kept them. There isn't an ork face sad enough
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/27 18:34:29
PsychoticStorm wrote: I am sorry to bring this to you but both CMON and FFG are not exactly the representatives of the average bard game company, if nothing else their products are considered by some boardgamers as expensive and excessive.
Some, but not this one. I'm *very* happy with my Zombicide miniatures for both detail and cost-per-figure, and Eldritch Horror is *the* most-played boardgame from my boardgaming closet.
I could really care less about the "average" board game company. Like my KS pledges, I only purchase from companies which offer the best games at the best prices. Although they seem to all have zombies for some reason.
The game would have been interesting with or without the minis, but not for $85 fething dollars! Looks like fun to be had after one proxies the blobs with spess mahrines, gaunts and stealers.
I am happy to pass judgement now, where it might possibly make a difference. If they've cranked these out in house, just for Essen, then its too late for those poor Essen bastards but the rest of of might have a chance. If we whine hard enough!
For boardgame pieces they look good and Artipia never advertise them as wargame figures,.
However they advertised them, the final product bears little resemblance to the quality of the renders shown during the campaign. And however they chose to advertise them, the company behind these would have to have been seriously not paying attention if they didn't realise that a portion of their backers were in solely for the miniatures... so it was on them to make sure that there was no confusion over what sort of quality the final product would be.
ArtIsGreat wrote: I am happy to pass judgement now, where it might possibly make a difference. If they've cranked these out in house, just for Essen, then its too late for those poor Essen bastards but the rest of of might have a chance. If we whine hard enough!
Plastic tooling costs a lot -and besides the production slots it takes up a lot of time too!-, I seriously doubt whining would do anything. Not interested in aliens nor defending anyone but when I had seen this the game looked fun; 40K Tyrranid players and painters will probably not like their rewards, boardgamers imo will however.
I have a few rules for backing KS.
1. Do I see finished rules and/or production level minis?
2. Do I have to back for more than $100 to get anything worth having?
3. Is this somethig I don't already have a ton of?
If any of these are no, I'll usually not back or only back for an add-on or two.
Good to know! :-D
ced1106 wrote: I could really care less about the "average" board game company. Like my KS pledges, I only purchase from companies which offer the best games at the best prices. Although they seem to all have zombies for some reason.
For boardgame pieces they look good and Artipia never advertise them as wargame figures,.
However they advertised them, the final product bears little resemblance to the quality of the renders shown during the campaign. And however they chose to advertise them, the company behind these would have to have been seriously not paying attention if they didn't realise that a portion of their backers were in solely for the miniatures... so it was on them to make sure that there was no confusion over what sort of quality the final product would be.
Personally I backed it to see what Drawlab can really deliver, I will not say I am enthusiast about the results, though the pics are bad, but I maintain they targeted boardgamers, they delivered quality boardgamers (and not wargamers who play also boardgames) will find acceptable and their target audience were never wargamers.
The renders were from the start soft and frankly this is the detail they would deliver, as I said these figures will probably be ok or good for boardgame, I would personally wish better.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/27 22:41:29
PsychoticStorm wrote: ... but I maintain they targeted boardgamers, they delivered quality boardgamers (and not wargamers who play also boardgames) will find acceptable ...
I think that would depend entirely on whether or not those boardgamers purchased on the strength of the renders shown during the campaign.
If I saw this on the shelf in my local store, I probably wouldn't even question the quality of the sculpts. I wouldn't buy it specifically for the miniatures, but if the game looked good, the quality of the pieces wouldn't be that big a turnoff... Prettier pieces are nice, but not essential, so long as you can tell what is what.
It's showing those renders, and then delivering those casts that is the problem.
The average customer has no way of knowing (nor any particular reason to know) how much the choice of material, or the choice of casting company, will impact the level of variation from sculpt to final production model. If companies are going to use renders to promote their product, it is entirely their responsiblity to ensure that they make it clear to their potential customers before money changes hands if the final product won't look anything like the renders.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/27 23:19:28
Agreed, on hindsight somebody, even me, should have pointed out the detail on renders was too shallow and it should have been twice as deep to have the detail needed.
The average customer has no way of knowing (nor any particular reason to know) how much the choice of material, or the choice of casting company, will impact the level of variation from sculpt to final production model.
Actually I'm not sure that's entirely true, in our KS-1 we had both been asked and stated that we will keep on working with Renedra for our plastics, same goes for our KS-2. Backers are more familiar and asking more questions, which imo is a very good thing because it dictates what the project creator is getting the money for.
If companies are going to use renders to promote their product, it is entirely their responsiblity to ensure that they make it clear to their potential customers before money changes hands if the final product won't look anything like the renders.
Every manufacturer is being held acountable for what he/she delivers and that should be remembered in every new project said creator launches. In this case Artipia is probably going to deliver in a timely manner and will be judged for the quality of the rewards. Again, we are not defending anyone (and who are we to defend anyone anyway) but not all backers have/ask the same standards. Maybe a rappresentative of Artipia and/or Drawlab is going to eventually chim in this thread, I'm pretty sure they are too busy answering their 2000+ backer's pm's...
Claiming to be able to make "hobby-game miniatures" had a lot to do with the expectation. Also the $20 single figure add-on would not be expected of a gak boardgame piece.
Misleading shots like this don't help
Reflection in the table and everything? Cmonnnnnnn
Actually I'm not sure that's entirely true, in our KS-1 we had both been asked and stated that we will keep on working with Renedra for our plastics, same goes for our KS-2. Backers are more familiar and asking more questions, which imo is a very good thing because it dictates what the project creator is getting the money for.
I don't disagree with that. What I probably should have said is that it shouldn't be expected that potential backers will know that stuff.
Some will, and that's great... But it's potentially an expensive lesson for the rest, and that becomes a PR disaster for the company involved, and had a knock on effect... For example (although I accept that it's just anecdotal evidence) I broke my usual rule against buying on the strength of renders for Sedition Wars. The mess that resulted from that has left me extremely reluctant to put money towards anything that isn't showing actual, physical miniatures in future.
Well Sedition wars did show some actual models and it was a disaster.
I am not sure asking for production models would help in most cases the funding is done for the models and the models would never happen if the funding was not done, or better, if the models are done the KS is simply a preorder.
Those models are shamefully bad. Dollar store plastic army men have more distinct detail. Even as board game pieces, they're garbage. I'll go so far as to say that this whole thing feels like a scam to me.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." -Napoleon
Actually I'm not sure that's entirely true, in our KS-1 we had both been asked and stated that we will keep on working with Renedra for our plastics, same goes for our KS-2. Backers are more familiar and asking more questions, which imo is a very good thing because it dictates what the project creator is getting the money for.
I don't disagree with that. What I probably should have said is that it shouldn't be expected that potential backers will know that stuff.
Some will, and that's great... But it's potentially an expensive lesson for the rest, and that becomes a PR disaster for the company involved, and had a knock on effect... For example (although I accept that it's just anecdotal evidence) I broke my usual rule against buying on the strength of renders for Sedition Wars. The mess that resulted from that has left me extremely reluctant to put money towards anything that isn't showing actual, physical miniatures in future.
We agree on the first part, projects that attract a lot of people will inevitably have some more and some less informed.
On the second part based on the example you wrote and without wanting to derail the thread of Project: Elite , it would be appropriate to point out that neither renders nor actual physical sculpts are as important compared to what the final product the backer is going to receive is. So even if you see a physical sculpt, that's not necessary the production model you will be receiving.
Renders can tell what you're getting in your hands as long as there is faith in the project creator. How does one mesure faith? Well, that's going to derail this even more so better not get into it... :-)
I tried Googling up "render vs physical sculpt" but couldn't find anything, so I quickly put this together from one of our own (sorry but didn't have better pics from a same angle)
and there's also a Youtube video with the actual mini, and I mean a production mini if anyone wants an even better look.
Mind you at the time there wasn't even a render(!), we had prepared only the artwork and signaled the commissioned sculptor and material of the final miniature. Didn't stop people from pledging.
What will count is how many people will be satisfied with the result, and I think that's what PsychoticStorm is also trying to say. Artipia's future will be decided on whether backers support them again in the future, no?
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