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They actually remind me of the old colored "muscle men" toys from the 80's. Not really very close to the renders at all. Glad I stayed away from this one.

Did you guys watch that unboxing video? Watch it full screen in HD. They don't look as bad as those previous photos.

Not anywhere close to the renders of course, but it certainly isn't as horrible as those initial photos.

They still need to up their casting game.

 Duskland wrote:
They actually remind me of the old colored "muscle men" toys from the 80's. Not really very close to the renders at all. Glad I stayed away from this one.

Whoa whoa whoa.

Don't you insult the M.U.S.C.L.E. men like that!

As you can clearly see, their detail was far better:

Hopefully these aren't made out of the same material as Kinkeishi.

Painting those sucked. Paint always cracked and came off.

Whoa whoa whoa.

Don't you insult the M.U.S.C.L.E. men like that!

As you can clearly see, their detail was far better:

No offense meant to the pink muscle men. Just saying that some of the colored mixes they used later on had the same kind of glossy half-melted look that these do.

Well the good thing for the miniatures of Project:ELITE is that they CAN get painted.


If you want to see more, check out the most recent update.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/241478362/project-elite/posts/1368690

Runners painted not bad, the dentureless gummy mouth is odd. Biters, not sure what I'm looking at, sort of standing on one leg and hunched over maybe, head looks fine tho. Oh dear christ the shooters... if pro studio painters can't make it not look like gak what hope do the rest of us have! That chest-arm-gun, what a mess.

In what universe is the question ''show more detailed pictures'' answered with pro painted minis? I'm expecting detailed closeups of the box dividers next.

lol, I could've sworn I typed that Muscle Men comparison!!!
The ones I always saw were in the quarter machine and they must've been knockoffs or something because they were never that detailed.

Oh, yeah lol, having a pro-painter do the production models is good for some things.. sure. Making people feel better about quality concerns is not one of them. Guys like Wappel or Dwartist could paint a blob of chewing gum and it would look amazing.

ArtIsGreat wrote:
In what universe is the question ''show more detailed pictures'' answered with pro painted minis? I'm expecting detailed closeups of the box dividers next.

OK, I'll admit I chuckled at that :-)

Their last update says they are going to post/upload more images of the other miniatures in the next days. I think they'll be smart about it and do it as quickly as possible.
If they are high resolution, clearly lit(/focused) and unpainted (or primed) I think this will clear the issue for everyone. For better or for worse that is...

Having committed a number of mistakes ourselves during the creation of our own campaign, we seach faults to avoid by studying other projects. I think the lesson for creators to be learned from this one is the need of consistency on the updates. Had there been more, all this would have probably been dodged. The delivery date is too close now and the time-window of reaction close to zero, so it's natural the nerves from the backers are getting worse and for good reason.

I don't think more pictures will help =/. It is what it is really... hopefully the game itself is good.

One is an awful mini, the other, a red poop, can you tell which is which?

Welp, whatever divine miracle atripia was hoping to occur at Essen did not come to pass. Shockingly enough, people picked up their copies, posted more detailed pics, and they were awful. What the hell did they think was going to happen?! Apparently they handed out replacement minis for the red bosses...that were exactly identical to the previous models but less shiny. A full week of damage control and this is what they came up with? If I'm going to be fleeced, I'd at least want the thieves to be cunning, this is just embarrassing. And they put the 3d renders on the back of the box, because not enough people have been suckered I guess.

For the gameplay is king crowd, one lump looks like another so people are apparently having a time figuring which blob to grab. At least they are not poisonous to the touch, I think!

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
I think the lesson for creators to be learned from this one is the need of consistency on the updates.

The lesson to be learned is to pay no more than 50% up front to your manufacturers, and skip Essen if the miniatures don't measure up. MegaConGames, rejected the production plastics for Recon, which were softer than the sample plastic figures they received. MCG said that, because they paid 50% up front, they had leverage over their manufacturer to redo the plastics. I don't know what Artipia and Drawlab's arrangements were between themselves and the miniatures manufacturer. I also don't know if MCG intended to show off Recon at Essen.

As for backers:
* Renders are not miniatures. See also Torn Armor, Shadows of Brimstone.
* Back projects from companies that have experience in the product you're backing.
* Buy miniatures from miniature game companies.
* Back projects with satisfied customers.
* Be wary of companies shooting for Essen or GenCon.
* It's okay to risk money. Just don't risk as much money compared to less risky projects.
* Will you be able to paint all these miniatures? Do you have enough games?
* Would you rather buy another game at the OLGS if it's at a deep discount?

None of these are hard and fast rules, of course. I didn't back P:E also because of the Greecian economy, but it was primarily the first, second, and fourth reasons.

ced1106 wrote:

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
I think the lesson for creators to be learned from this one is the need of consistency on the updates.

The lesson to be learned is to pay no more than 50% up front to your manufacturers, and skip Essen if the miniatures don't measure up. MegaConGames, rejected the production plastics for Recon, which were softer than the sample plastic figures they received. MCG said that, because they paid 50% up front, they had leverage over their manufacturer to redo the plastics. I don't know what Artipia and Drawlab's arrangements were between themselves and the miniatures manufacturer. I also don't know if MCG intended to show off Recon at Essen.

Maybe, they said in BGG they will make an update about the situation this week who knows if they will try to fix this situation (which should have never happened)?

As for backers:
* Renders are not miniatures. See also Torn Armor, Shadows of Brimstone.

True, but with this you kill most of the kickstarters from new companies, asking for one or two 3D printed masters though is not a bad idea.

* Back projects from companies that have experience in the product you're backing.

Translation, don't use kickstarter for its intended purpose only as a preorder platform.

* Buy miniatures from miniature game companies.

With the increased demand from boardgames to have miniatures, that means don't back boardgames.

* Back projects with satisfied customers.

Translation, don't use kickstarter for its intended purpose only as a preorder platform.

* Be wary of companies shooting for Essen or GenCon.

??? I guess ??? is this even relevant? the fulfillment day is as much a pressure point as is any con.

* It's okay to risk money. Just don't risk as much money compared to less risky projects.

Like?

* Will you be able to paint all these miniatures? Do you have enough games?
* Would you rather buy another game at the OLGS if it's at a deep discount?

Are these even relevant?

None of these are hard and fast rules, of course. I didn't back P:E also because of the Greecian economy, but it was primarily the first, second, and fourth reasons.

You mention that at every time you can, will you please stop it and stop discriminate at countries, US has a bigger percentage of flopped KS projects, should we avoid any projects from there because of precedence?

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

* Back projects from companies that have experience in the product you're backing.

Translation, don't use kickstarter for its intended purpose only as a preorder platform.

* Back projects with satisfied customers.

Translation, don't use kickstarter for its intended purpose only as a preorder platform.

Use Kickstarter for its intended purpose and not a single one of these games would get funded. The backers are not the ones who turned Kickstarter into a preorder platform, because the backers aren't the ones offering a catalogue of products up for sale, complete with a price list, to entice people to pledge money.

Lol, you are killing me, :-D
Yeah, at this point even those holding some precaution admit that the minis are much lower quality than those promised.
I'm very curious to see how they react to all this. I was thinking if I was in their shoes what would I do, although I think the fault lies on the person who green lighted the mass production after seeing the first test samples.
If they had posted updates earlier, then the reaction would have been foreseen and all this would have never happened.

Blame is not the issue here, fixing the problem is. As I said, I'm very curious to see the reaction of Artipia&Drawlab.

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
I think the fault lies on the person who green lighted the mass production after seeing the first test samples.
If they had posted updates earlier, then the reaction would have been foreseen and all this would have never happened.

That's what is a bit shocking about this - they must have had test shots from the mold... how did they agree to pay for a full production run of those models?

They may have made the mistake of paying 100%, or close to it, upfront.

Maybe they were offered a 'discount' if they did so?

Maybe they were enticed by other incentives?

Moving up production to (x) if they gave (y) 'now'?

Who knows?

But yes, hard to imagine that stuff getting anyone's approval IF they saw it beforehand/had the chance to approve?

 Alpharius wrote:
Maybe they were offered a 'discount' if they did so?

Good point. Definitely remembering this one!

Maybe Shieldwolf Miniatures could tell us more about the relationship between a miniatures manufacturer and its customer. I'm under the impression that it's not always amicable. Frex, with Tom Wilfong's dice (and other projects), the manufacturer screwed up the first dice batch, but putting the job back on the queue cost the project a few months delay because the manufacturer was working on other projects. Even a million-dollar KS might be an unimportant customer if the customer won't have a long-term relationship. Green Eye Games and a few other projects mentioned how important it was to have someone on-site at the manufacturer's to make sure they're doing the right job. MegaConGames emphasized their refusal to pay the manufacturer 100% up front, and how the manufacturer's production plastic *wasn't* their sample plastic. Etc., etc.

I swear, I have to stop buying all this plasticrack on KS. When's Cthulhu Wars KS 2 starting?

Each manufacturer deals as he thinks best, due to my prior experience as a businessman I usually opt for 1/3 in advance, 1/3 with the proof sample or advanced WiP report and 1/3 upon completion. That is not necessary the best way but my modus operanti model follows that, otherwise with new collaborators I have even agreed to 50% upfront and 50% on delivery; many consider it common practice but I usually tried to avoid that and move with my modus operanti as explained above.

My understanding however is that Drawlab manufactures in house. I and my Team have a very good idea of what that means due to our casting/manufacturing our resin in our facilities but for the plastics we had to use an outside source. Trust me when I tell you that I had better things to do than catch the plane every time and fly over to Renedra. Yeah sure, the English know what they are doing but if the product is lacking, the fault is 100% ours. Thankfully we have no reason whatsoever to worry concerning plastics and we are very pleased with the professionalism from Renedra but that doesn't mean if things work out on our KS-2 that I won't be flying to London just to make sure. And that's on top of the proof samples they send us anyway.

Hope that helped answer your question ced1106 :-)

 cincydooley wrote:

 Duskland wrote:
They actually remind me of the old colored "muscle men" toys from the 80's. Not really very close to the renders at all. Glad I stayed away from this one.

Whoa whoa whoa.

Don't you insult the M.U.S.C.L.E. men like that!

As you can clearly see, their detail was far better:

Not to go too far OT, but looking at this picture reminds me of all of those Muscle figures I had, and that their details were actually quite good. Considering their extremely low price.

Anyone know what they were made of? I wonder why no one is currently using that technique for miniatures (in the Bones fashion) today?

My wife said they were originally erasers in Japan.

Whether that's what they were actually made of, or that's what kids used them for instead, is debatable.

I'd wager they were some sort of rubber. Just not the same slimy type that Drawlab seems to have used.

They definitely weren't erasers.

My brother and I had the entire first four series of the US release (you could get the series sets at Sears)

They were a higher detail level than the US-created Monster in my Pocket

Yeah, I had plenty of the American ones myself and they certainly weren't erasers here in the states.

The name itself in Japanese is a play on the word eraser. Eraser- keshi gomu. Muscleman- Kinnikuman. Little guys- kinkeshi.

I'll nag her about it when I get home.

Totally off topic, but did you know that one of the big toy companies went and did a bunch of special Masters of the Universe musclemen?

I'll keep this moderately on topic by saying that I was a backer at 1$ and feel very much like I dodged a bullet by not going in further. They are welcome to my $1.

Back to the Muscle Men though, I loved those things, had hundreds of 'em!

Check out this guy's site, he's done full on research into Muscle Men:

http://blog.uofmuscle.com/

 Alpharius wrote:
They may have made the mistake of paying 100%, or close to it, upfront.

Maybe they were offered a 'discount' if they did so?

Maybe they were enticed by other incentives?

Moving up production to (x) if they gave (y) 'now'?

Who knows?

But yes, hard to imagine that stuff getting anyone's approval IF they saw it beforehand/had the chance to approve?

They ascribe to the Mantic school of production quality assessment?

"So what if it has ape arms, the suckers will still buy it."

 agnosto wrote:


They ascribe to the Mantic school of production quality assessment?

"So what if it has ape arms, the suckers already bought it."

I corrected that for you. Also, it's increasingly more of a Kickstarter minis QA motto than just Mantic.

I'd imagine by the time they saw the proofs all the cash was gone,

so it was approve the less than stellar product, or have nothing to ship to backers, so they went with the lesser of 2 evils

(and hoped the game had mostly been bought on the strength of the gameplay description, not the minis so they wouldn't get too many complaints)

At least I hope that's what happened, and not that they thought the quality was ok

We're still supposed to get an update today, so hopefully there's a solution that everyone (or mostly everyone) is satisfied with.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

(and hoped the game had mostly been bought on the strength of the gameplay description, not the minis so they wouldn't get too many complaints)

Well all reports so far are unanimous, great game tied with unfortunately awful models.

I hope they have a good update coming for this mess, one backer went in Spiel and told them that its unacceptable for him to get his pledge with such quality, that hopefully must have hit home.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe it did?


43:30 onwards

Wow, that's a packed 5 minutes of coverage on it (from 43:50 - 48:50). All the components made by Artipia Games look high quality (everything except the miniatures). Whereas the miniatures (made by DrawLab) really do not hold up to scrutiny. Here's hoping they can get it resolved like he is implying in the video... I'm really not sure how that could be done, but for the sake of DrawLab getting future work I would think they'd be highly motivated to fix this.