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What will count is how many people will be satisfied with the result, and I think that's what PsychoticStorm is also trying to say. Artipia's future will be decided on whether backers support them again in the future, no?
Yes, thanks.
They have a lot of goodwill on boardgame world from their Among the stars line, can this save them from this? will this be considered acceptable among non backers? will it sell? I do not know, but Drawlabs have lost a lot of goodwill from this one for sure.
Nice comparison on the render/ real dragon, shows how deep the detail must be for it to transfer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/28 00:43:34
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: On the second part based on the example you wrote and without wanting to derail the thread of Project: Elite , it would be appropriate to point out that neither renders nor actual physical sculpts are as important compared to what the final product the backer is going to receive is. So even if you see a physical sculpt, that's not necessary the production model you will be receiving.
I wasn't talking about physical sculpts, but physical miniatures.
I'm happy to back based on a 3d print of a render (after consideration of the material being used) ... because that at least gives you some indication as to how the miniature is actually going to look, and whether or not that awesome digital sculpt is actually even physically possible. I'm just not prepared to go solely off the render... because ultimately, a render is not really any more useful for determining what the final product is going to look like then a concept sketch is. It's just too far up the design process chain to tell you anything other than 'Here's a nice design that we would like to make in miniature'. It's useless for determinining the eventual quality of that miniature.
A physical master model still doesn't tell you the whole story, but it's closer to the finale.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/09/28 01:46:18
insaniak wrote: I'm happy to back based on a 3d print of a render (after consideration of the material being used) ... because that at least gives you some indication as to how the miniature is actually going to look, and whether or not that awesome digital sculpt is actually even physically possible. I'm just not prepared to go solely off the render... because ultimately, a render is not really any more useful for determining what the final product is going to look like then a concept sketch is. It's just too far up the design process chain to tell you anything other than 'Here's a nice design that we would like to make in miniature'. It's useless for determinining the eventual quality of that miniature.
The problems *I* have with a render are that I can't tell what parts of a render can or cannot become the end model, and something about incompatible file types between the artist and the manufacturer. At least with concept art, you intuitively know that the 3D sculpt isn't going to look exactly like the 2D artwork. Sure, we're *told* renders, as well as resins, won't look like the final production model, but how much not final will it look like? I don't know enough about renders to have any idea!
But, I'll agree with SM that, at some point you need "faith". Or, rather, you need to know if the project is using a sculptor who knows how to make a miniature for production. Not to mention a creator who knows how to manage the other aspects of a project. Which is why I look for creators with experience in making plastic miniatures before backing them.
Which would have resulted in backing this project.
So... any yellow or red flags which popped up during this project which would have told us not to back? Customer comments from their previous KS and an Essen deadline were sorta yellow flags, but I'm sorta iffy on those as con vs. Artipia's previous experience with plastic miniatures.
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: On the second part based on the example you wrote and without wanting to derail the thread of Project: Elite , it would be appropriate to point out that neither renders nor actual physical sculpts are as important compared to what the final product the backer is going to receive is. So even if you see a physical sculpt, that's not necessary the production model you will be receiving.
I wasn't talking about physical sculpts, but physical miniatures.
Sorry I had understood physical sculpts, my bad then. :-)
The problems *I* have with a render are that I can't tell what parts of a render can or cannot become the end model, and something about incompatible file types between the artist and the manufacturer. At least with concept art, you intuitively know that the 3D sculpt isn't going to look exactly like the 2D artwork. Sure, we're *told* renders, as well as resins, won't look like the final production model, but how much not final will it look like? I don't know enough about renders to have any idea!
But, I'll agree with SM that, at some point you need "faith". Or, rather, you need to know if the project is using a sculptor who knows how to make a miniature for production. Not to mention a creator who knows how to manage the other aspects of a project. Which is why I look for creators with experience in making plastic miniatures before backing them.
Which would have resulted in backing this project.
So... any yellow or red flags which popped up during this project which would have told us not to back? Customer comments from their previous KS and an Essen deadline were sorta yellow flags, but I'm sorta iffy on those as con vs. Artipia's previous experience with plastic miniatures.
A render from a company with experience is "almost" the same with the final model, the detail will be deeper because of casting technicalities, but other than that the same. I will have to point out that Artipia is not the one who did the miniatures but Drawlabs.
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking.
"Artipia Games has designed and developed Project: ELITE. Our co-publisher, Drawlab Entertainment is responsible for the development and production of the game's miniatures."
Post some gushing pictures of marshmellow marines after months of silence, ignore incredible negative reaction in comments, and top the day off by dropping all blame and responsibility on Drawlabs.
I don't think I'm being dramatic when I say Greece deserves everything that happens to it.
ArtIsGreat wrote: "Artipia Games has designed and developed Project: ELITE. Our co-publisher, Drawlab Entertainment is responsible for the development and production of the game's miniatures."
Post some gushing pictures of marshmellow marines after months of silence, ignore incredible negative reaction in comments, and top the day off by dropping all blame and responsibility on Drawlabs.
I don't think I'm being dramatic when I say Greece deserves everything that happens to it.
I certainly do not agree with their attitude in going silent nor commencing to shift blame, let alone not manning up and responding to backers which I find a horrible attitude (end results will determine how crappy their product is), but isn't that last line you wrote stretching it a bit?
ArtIsGreat wrote: "Artipia Games has designed and developed Project: ELITE. Our co-publisher, Drawlab Entertainment is responsible for the development and production of the game's miniatures."
Post some gushing pictures of marshmellow marines after months of silence, ignore incredible negative reaction in comments, and top the day off by dropping all blame and responsibility on Drawlabs.
I don't think I'm being dramatic when I say Greece deserves everything that happens to it.
This is based on a comment somebody on kickstarter did without any backing, how much truth is there we don't know, personally I do hold drawlabs mainly responsible for the miniatures since this was their job, but Artipia should have a saying in if they are acceptable or not (ultimately the customers will determine that, but before they choose with their wallets the publisher has a saying) and I will agree they should be responding to the crisis, they may be doing so they may not we don't know because they do not talk and this is bad for them.
Yes, I would say you are dramatic, uninformed and childish in your last comment, do not link individuals with the disaster a nation endures.
@PsychoticStorm
I on the other hand do hold both equally accountable if the final product received by the backers is what it seems. As I stated earlier some people will not mind but some others will (from the comments so far it's the latter that holds the vast majority), so everyone involved is responsible. It's like saying e.g. "don't blame us, the Chinese don't know what they are doing" but it was you who took the funds and it was your job to check on them.
Another worrying fact I noticed their last update on the miniatures was back on June 2nd, which is almost 4 months(!) ago, and that was only to show a render. Although tooling does take a lot of time I'm no expert on how often or detailed an update must be, but that seems a long lapse imo...
I mentioned my concern about Greece's economy (or rather banks), but that does NOT mean "Greece deserves everything that happens to it." I'm not seeing any link between Artipia's (mis)management of the project and the Greek economy. If you find something, fine, post it, but it's hard enough speculating what went wrong (and how to make sure it won't happen again), then to add side remarks to the discussion.
(hehe, almond butter
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/29 08:15:40
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: @PsychoticStorm
I on the other hand do hold both equally accountable if the final product received by the backers is what it seems. As I stated earlier some people will not mind but some others will (from the comments so far it's the latter that holds the vast majority), so everyone involved is responsible. It's like saying e.g. "don't blame us, the Chinese don't know what they are doing" but it was you who took the funds and it was your job to check on them.
Another worrying fact I noticed their last update on the miniatures was back on June 2nd, which is almost 4 months(!) ago, and that was only to show a render. Although tooling does take a lot of time I'm no expert on how often or detailed an update must be, but that seems a long lapse imo...
Agreed, Ultimately the publisher is responsible on accepting what the manufacturer produced, that was what I meant, but it was not clear, I am sorry for that.
Hello,
it seems the pictures of Project:ELITE minis did upset a lot of folks, and we can understand that.
They are NOT representative of the final product, and they are debasing it. We do love the miniatures and we think that when you see them up close you will also do. In order not to make you wait until then, we will soon upload some professional photos and some videos that are going to depict the detail on them a little better and (why not) a painted army! We will also remove these images since they are confusing (to say the least).
After making the prototypes, we were also very enthusiastic to procede with the final product, and we took in mind all the international standards to ensure:
the quality of the detail ( reaching up to detail of a few microns)
durability (they are practically unbreakable)
the quality of the material (all have CE , especially for games)
suitability for a real-time game like Project:ELITE.
For this case particularly, we had decided to go for elastic plastic to make sure nobody would be injured in the edges of a hard plastic.
Finally, I want to thank you all for participating in the discussion. We read carefully each comment, and even though some hurt, we are always eager to read your feedback.
After all, your feedback is our most precious resource to become better every day.
Also, one more thing:
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/09/29 14:20:07
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking.
= Epic First Post.
2015/09/29 15:14:37
Subject: Re:Project: ELITE- Alien minis boardgame Kickstarter (Update - issues with the miniatures)
Maybe you should have changed the title, then (by the way I've temporarily updated it to reflect the current developments but feel free to change).
I think that's really the problem - people backing these things with the idea that the miniatures alone are worth the price. These are obviously not... but I think even in most cases, it's the fact that they're part of a game that is the draw. But then they shouldn't push the miniatures aspect so much, and just emphasize that they're board game pieces... but that's not what was done here.
I sort of have been leaning towards scam, but these updates make them seem more clueless than conniving, the genuine excitement of showing the mud people followed up by the "one more thing" mic drop ... of more ugly minis taken from across the room.
And hey, why is there a happy meal toy in the middle of their awful minis? Seems a pretty odd way to show scale-OH GEEZ THATS NOT A RANDOM MINI THATS A $20 ADD ON *pukes*
*edit
Unboxing video, maybe the worst ever, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHA-koBIf6Y. Not much detail, but things should look nondescript from tabletop distance, I'm still seeing ugly, especially the reds. I like how his first reaction on pouring out a box of pancake batter is to make sure it is spread out evenly. New theory: All the money was spent on a beautiful purple velvet box lining.
Running out of ways to call things melty. Here's another awful, awful mini.
And a quick thought, when someone says "not to be dramatic" followed by something incredibly dramatic, there's a strong possibility they are not being serious.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/30 06:07:00
2015/09/30 06:09:10
Subject: Project: ELITE- Alien minis boardgame Kickstarter (Update - issues with the miniatures)
I think Drawlab may drop by and defend themselves, I'm certainly not involved (other than being a backer in their project) and not going to do that for them but neither am I going to notice and allow detruction on my company, let alone with our KS-2 coming up!
If you think all Greek companies have the same quality, please have a look at this. Mind you, this is a production model!
If you are still not convinced, please drop by in our comment section in like a couple of months when we have finished delivering and read the comments here.
We'll be happily expecting your opinion on that. Otherwise, kindly rephrase/edit your comment above, it is unjust and insulting.
And a quick thought, when someone says "not to be dramatic" followed by something incredibly dramatic, there's a strong possibility they are not being serious.
And while that's all well and good, maybe dialling it down a touch might be good. Criticism is fine, but we don't want Dakka to be too unwelcoming for the people behind these smaller projects... And when multiple languages are involved, the humour can be lost in translation.
2015/09/30 12:06:40
Subject: Project: ELITE- Alien minis boardgame Kickstarter (Update - issues with the miniatures)
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking.
= Epic First Post.
2015/09/30 13:52:39
Subject: Re:Project: ELITE- Alien minis boardgame Kickstarter (Update - issues with the miniatures)
Still nowhere close to the renders shown, but not bad from a distance.
They should totally use that in their promotional materials!
All kidding aside, are there any quotes that say how totally awesome high detailed and wargaming quality miniatures this would all end up being?
These quotes are from the KS page and the main picture on the page promotes the minisas "highly -detailed." I spoilered the pic because it's huge.
Spoiler:
Project: ELITE is scheduled for production in September 2015. Please note that the published product may have differences regarding sizes, quantities, colors and layout because of production limitations and/or adjustments. The miniatures depicted in the campaign may undergo changes/adjustment to ensure a quality product. Drawlab Entertainment will manufacture these miniatures in-house ensuring the best outcome, providing hobby-game miniatures in a board game!
The 80 miniatures included in the main game, the ones offered as stretch rewards and the 43 included in the expansion, are all single-piece miniatures. No glue or extra effort to assemble will be needed. The Mega-boss miniatures are multi-part models but they will also require no glue to assemble.
Drawlab Entertainment is board game publishing company based in Greece, creating the best new games with the most beautiful components, innovating gameplay and fitting themes. Drawlab also manufactures miniatures and special components from plastic and metal, ensuring the best quality for all gamers to enjoy, being responsible for the boardgame Spells of Doom and the Legendary Metal Coins project.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2015/09/30 15:33:49
Subject: Project: ELITE- Alien minis boardgame Kickstarter (Update - issues with the miniatures)
And a quick thought, when someone says "not to be dramatic" followed by something incredibly dramatic, there's a strong possibility they are not being serious.
And while that's all well and good, maybe dialling it down a touch might be good. Criticism is fine, but we don't want Dakka to be too unwelcoming for the people behind these smaller projects... And when multiple languages are involved, the humour can be lost in translation.
So, on topic here, and if you see a post that you think breaks the rules of the site - report it.
2015/09/30 17:48:07
Subject: Project: ELITE- Alien minis boardgame Kickstarter (Update - issues with the miniatures)
Did they really tout the 'high quality miniatures angle' a lot here during the campaign?
The one on the left looks like it is made of that ubiquitous 1980's slime goo they kept on adding to toys.. but dried out a bit. Wow.. yeah, those renders aren't even close to approximating the final quality.
