Which character has the best statistical chance of beating killing Jain Zar in a challenge? Can be any character or special character (including custom-built ones like Smash fether, a tooled-up Archon etc), with the only parameter being that it has to be a model she can wound (so no vehicles, for example). The character can not be buffed by other units, though it may buff itself if it has the capability.
Also, emphasis on cheapest. The first person who suggests a Primarch is getting slapped.
Anyhoo, les do this.
EDIT- These are her rules:
WS7 BS7 S4 T4 W3 I7 A4 Ld10 2+sv
Ancient Doom Eternal Warrior Fear Fearless
Enemies in combat with her get -2 to leadership Before rolling To Hit whilst in a challenge, Jain Zar can choose to nominate one of her opponent’s melee weapons. Her opponent counts as not being equipped with that weapon until the end of the phase. If Jain Zar does this, she makes one less Attack than normal this phase.
Her weapon is strength 4 AP 2 with shred, and has an ability that lowers the initiative and weapon skill of all enemies within 6'' by 5.
Hmm, an ork warboss with a power klaw, cybork body and da killa klaw might stand a chance. -5I doesn't matter, because of Unwieldy and the boss has 2 PKs to counteract the disarming feature. He might die before he gets to swing though.
There's Ghazghkull during his Waaagh! 2++ save and a ton of ID attacks should make a dead phoenix lord.
I vote for Lelith Hesperax in the challenge. Stats are 9 9 3 3 3 9 6 9. She ignores armor innately, rerolls To Hit and To Wound, and has a 3++ in combat. She only costs 150 points to boot.
Castellan Crowe is only 175. He's got AP2 str6 with hammer hand and a 4++ reroll able in CC. Ws8 I 8? Not sure if that helps him. Lysander or a captain with sheild eternal and a pair of lightning claws would probably beat her too.
How does the disarming strike work, is it possible for it to fail against a model that has lower ws than her?
Regardless I think orikan, from the necrons, would do relatively well against her. With his ability to have 1+ to reanimation, 4+ invulnerable, and rerolling saving throws of 1 meaning that even her having an Ap2 weapon is not so bad. His close combat weapon allows him to reroll failed to hit roll and is Ap2 as well, meaning that once he is able to use his weapon it will hurt her. And considering he does buff himself at some point of the game there is a chance he might get to use that weapon, all for a mere 120
Edit: Ninja'd by the OP, never mind he never has a chance to use his weapon, but he will tarpit the gak out Jain Zar
There's no test for disarming strike. Jain Zar just picks one of the enemy model's weapons and they lose access to it and any abilities it gives for the duration of the phase. She can use it at the start of every round, it's not like a "one use only" type thing.
A Dreadknight is a character, and starts at 130 with 4 S10 AP2 attacks and a 5++, with a psychic power that can make it a 4++. Pure CC and speed upgrades can make him 40 points more expensive. He'll hit on 4's, still at S10 cause he has 2 powerfists while she will hit on 3's and wound on 6s. Unless she has a good invul save, the dreadknight will win the attrition battle.
Basically what you need is a character with a high toughness, good invul save, and high strength AP2 (initiative doesn't matter).
Iron hands chapter master with gorgon chain and 2 powerfists would be a good shout.
Reason being that you need 2 ap2 weapons and gorgon chain allows you to take 2 and still have the EW, 3++, IWND bonus etc. Clan Raukaan data slate is on my old phone so will have to wait until I'm home until I get the points cost on that.
Loth IF he gets Iron arm off. She will disarm the force axe, but he will still get st7 ap2 attacks from his pistol whip And a 2++ to boot. 175pts (off the top of my head).
greyknight12 wrote: A Dreadknight is a character, and starts at 130 with 4 S10 AP2 attacks and a 5++, with a psychic power that can make it a 4++. Pure CC and speed upgrades can make him 40 points more expensive. He'll hit on 4's, still at S10 cause he has 2 powerfists while she will hit on 3's and wound on 6s. Unless she has a good invul save, the dreadknight will win the attrition battle.
Basically what you need is a character with a high toughness, good invul save, and high strength AP2 (initiative doesn't matter).
st10 ap 2 that becomes user st ap2... but should still own her anyway.
Haha, if only you hadn't specified that I can't throw something at her that she can't hurt! Everyone makes fun of dreadnoughts, but when they get into CC with a fearless wimp like her they make even the killiest character look pathetic.
greyknight12 wrote: A Dreadknight is a character, and starts at 130 with 4 S10 AP2 attacks and a 5++, with a psychic power that can make it a 4++. Pure CC and speed upgrades can make him 40 points more expensive. He'll hit on 4's, still at S10 cause he has 2 powerfists while she will hit on 3's and wound on 6s. Unless she has a good invul save, the dreadknight will win the attrition battle.
Basically what you need is a character with a high toughness, good invul save, and high strength AP2 (initiative doesn't matter).
st10 ap 2 that becomes user st ap2... but should still own her anyway.
Actually im not sure she has a invul.
No Invuln I believe, and even if she uses Disarming Strike, he'll have a Power Fist remaining, he just won't get the 2xCCW bonus.
Nurgle biker Lord, two Power Fists and whatever the 4++ Wargear is (Aura of Dark Glory?) Not a ton of attacks, but between MoN and a bike he gets T6, so Jain is only wounding on 6s and even with Shred that's not good odds. Conversely, he'll be wounding on 2s, so should finish her over a few rounds. No idea on cost, or if Chaos have any relics that could help.
greyknight12 wrote: A Dreadknight is a character, and starts at 130 with 4 S10 AP2 attacks and a 5++, with a psychic power that can make it a 4++. Pure CC and speed upgrades can make him 40 points more expensive. He'll hit on 4's, still at S10 cause he has 2 powerfists while she will hit on 3's and wound on 6s. Unless she has a good invul save, the dreadknight will win the attrition battle.
Basically what you need is a character with a high toughness, good invul save, and high strength AP2 (initiative doesn't matter).
st10 ap 2 that becomes user st ap2... but should still own her anyway.
Actually im not sure she has a invul.
No Invuln I believe, and even if she uses Disarming Strike, he'll have a Power Fist remaining, he just won't get the 2xCCW bonus.
just 1 weapon gone? i miss read that lel
But yeah ether way he probably has the best chance since she needs to wound on constant rerolling 6s + sanctuary. while any attack that connects will wound her near 100%
at 120 points i think we have a winner or at least the bar standard.
Herald of Nurgle, FNP Loci, greater and lesser Etherblade 100pts
Str5 T5, 5++, FNP and master-crafted on both weapons.
Zan chooses to take away the greater Etherblade, so the Herald needs 5's to hit (reduced to WS1), with one re-roll per turn and 3's to wound (no saves as ap2).
CaptainJay wrote: Herald of Nurgle, FNP Loci, greater and lesser Etherblade 100pts
Str5 T5, 5++, FNP and master-crafted on both weapons.
Zan chooses to take away the greater Etherblade, so the Herald needs 5's to hit (reduced to WS1), with one re-roll per turn and 3's to wound (no saves as ap2).
4 attacks at st 4 shred at 3s to hit will probably get through faster than you will be able to get to her i think.
Despite Jain Zar's WS/I lowering ability he'll still be hitting on 3's due to his own ability to reduce JZ down to WS1. His attacks ignore armour saves by default: Disarming Strike can't do anything to stop this, and in addition he has up to 3 S5 Ap1 shots beforehand before he gets stuck in. If he gets wounded he has 3 wounds with a 4+ Invuln with FNP.
Not the most obvious choice but I think the Culexus could definitely put up at least a fair fight.
Despite Jain Zar's WS/I lowering ability he'll still be hitting on 3's due to his own ability to reduce JZ down to WS1. His attacks ignore armour saves by default: Disarming Strike can't do anything to stop this, and in addition he has up to 3 S5 Ap1 shots beforehand before he gets stuck in. If he gets wounded he has 3 wounds with a 4+ Invuln with FNP.
Not the most obvious choice but I think the Culexus could definitely put up at least a fair fight.
There's a pretty hilarious mental image of all this debuffing/counter-debuffing going on.
Culexus Assassin. Etherium makes Jain Zar WS/BS1, so the -5WS doesn't help her.
Culexus Assassins also ignore armor with all their attacks, have a 4++, 3Ws, and do not actually possess a CC weapon.
Can't be disarmed, Etherium nullifies the -5WS. Between Zar having to hit on 5's (WS1 from Etherium vs WS3 from Zar's skill), and the 4++ of the Culexus, he'll pretty much rip her pointy-eared head off.
I don't think it's the best choice but the Culexus assassin wouldn't be in with an entirely improbable chance. Jain would hit on 5s (counting as WS1 against the Culexus' total WS of 3), Culexus would hit on 3s. Both would wound on 4s. The Culexus ignores the 2+ save (as that's a property of the assassin, not a weapon it wields), but has a 4+ invul. Both have the same number of wounds. Jain strikes at higher initiative. I would bet on Jain, but the luck of rolls means the Culexus would win a significant minority number of times I think. Also only 70% of Jain's points cost.
EDIT: someone beat me to it, and no Culexus doesn't have FNP.
Callidus Assassin is only 145 points, and neuters the special ability of Jain Zar by having 3 brutal weapons (poison blades, phase sword, neural disruptor). Even if 1 is taken away, she still gets 5 attacks, all with a good chance of doing something nasty - Rending / 3+ Poison, no invulnerable saves on 6, or always wounds on 4+ -- she can remove 1, at the cost of 1 attack, which probably means Jain Zar will just keep the attack.
Callidus just has better equipment for less points in a challenge.
But really, I don't think a challenge is the way to kill Jain Zar. She is not a durable model and can be killed much more easily at range; at 200 points base, she's just begging to be shot up.
So, based on a 10 run sample I just rolled (ignoring charging bonuses, as if the two characters had already been in a round of combat and both whiffed their attacks), it turns out that the Culexus wins hands down. Running the stats given, the Culexus won 10 out of 10.
But really, I don't think a challenge is the way to kill Jain Zar. She is not a durable model and can be killed much more easily at range; at 200 points base, she's just begging to be shot up.
Its an abbadon steals lunch money thread realistically everyone would just shoot her off the table.
Orikan the Diviner might have a decent shot at it.
120 points
4 4 4 4 2 2 2 10 4+
4++ save, Reanimation (always a 4+), Eternal warrior if warlord, and rerolls saving throws of 1. Plus, he goes Super Saiyan during the course of the game and becomes...
5 5 7 7 4 4 4 10 4+
So, yeah. His weapon would be useless in this case though.
Hmm, an ork warboss with a power klaw, cybork body and da killa klaw might stand a chance. -5I doesn't matter, because of Unwieldy and the boss has 2 PKs to counteract the disarming feature. He might die before he gets to swing though.
There's Ghazghkull during his Waaagh! 2++ save and a ton of ID attacks should make a dead phoenix lord.
put the Warboss on a bike and Zar needs 6s to wound.
I didn't know she had an extra attack, no. Having just ran another 10 fights, it was Culexus-6 Jain-4 (without Jain's extra attack). So, 16-4. Having rolled an extra 20 attacks over all those rounds might have tipped it a little, but not by enough to tip it into a majority of Jain victories. So, I estimated that the Culexus wins 2/3rds to 3/4ths of the time.
Oh, I take back the assassin. A Solitaire is only 145 points, too, and has 6 attacks, and a Jain Zar can either take away the Kiss or Carress, or keep the extra attack; either way with WS9 and I10, the Solitaire could just get lucky and kill Jain Zar with lucky rolls
Bharring wrote: Note that Jain Zar has two CC weapons. The one listed is strictly better, but she does get the +1A. I don't think it changes much, though.
What’s her second weapon? The Silent Death lacks the pistol or melee trait. It’s just a fancy gun these days. If GW was still in the habit of putting out FAQ, they’s probably change that, as the generic ones HB exarchs can get does have the melee trait. But none for the queen of 80’s hair.
Paradigm wrote: Nurgle biker Lord, two Power Fists and whatever the 4++ Wargear is (Aura of Dark Glory?) Not a ton of attacks, but between MoN and a bike he gets T6, so Jain is only wounding on 6s and even with Shred that's not good odds. Conversely, he'll be wounding on 2s, so should finish her over a few rounds. No idea on cost, or if Chaos have any relics that could help.
that works pretty well. A daemon prince also might be alright. I would give him the black mace but she would just disarm him. I suppose you could give the black mace and the axe of blind furry and she could chose to be:
hit on 4s wounded on 2s by 5+d6 attacks or
hit on 4s wounded on 2s by 5+d6 attacks
If the DP is your warlord he has a 16% change of having hatred the first round.
She would hit him on 3s wound on 5s with shred and then the DP would get a 5++. Not sure she can survive long enough to do much damage to the DP.
CaptainJay wrote: Herald of Nurgle, FNP Loci, greater and lesser Etherblade 100pts
Str5 T5, 5++, FNP and master-crafted on both weapons.
Zan chooses to take away the greater Etherblade, so the Herald needs 5's to hit (reduced to WS1), with one re-roll per turn and 3's to wound (no saves as ap2).
4 attacks at st 4 shred at 3s to hit will probably get through faster than you will be able to get to her i think.
Yeah, not agreeing with you on this one.
First up if she's using disarming strike she loses an attack (so 3 attacks not 4), if she doesn't then the Herald gets +1 attack for 2 specialist weapons and is wounding on 2's not 3's (the greater blade is also +1 str as well as mastercrafted).
Assuming Zan uses disarming strike to remove the greater etherblade
Herald striking back (4 attacks) 3 x (1/3) x (5/6)=5/6 wounds (again I'm not sure how to fact in the re-roll to hit from master-crafted, but again regardless 5/6 > 160/243).
The fact is Zan has no save against an etherblade (ap2 at int), where as the Herald has the benefit of higher toughess to wound, then 2 levels of saves (yeah I know FNP isn't technically a save) having a 1/3 chance twice to block the hits from Zan.
Paradigm wrote: Nurgle biker Lord, two Power Fists and whatever the 4++ Wargear is (Aura of Dark Glory?) Not a ton of attacks, but between MoN and a bike he gets T6, so Jain is only wounding on 6s and even with Shred that's not good odds. Conversely, he'll be wounding on 2s, so should finish her over a few rounds. No idea on cost, or if Chaos have any relics that could help.
that works pretty well. A daemon prince also might be alright. I would give him the black mace but she would just disarm him. I suppose you could give the black mace and the axe of blind furry and she could chose to be:
hit on 4s wounded on 2s by 5+d6 attacks or
hit on 4s wounded on 2s by 5+d6 attacks
If the DP is your warlord he has a 16% change of having hatred the first round.
She would hit him on 3s wound on 5s with shred and then the DP would get a 5++. Not sure she can survive long enough to do much damage to the DP.
Don't think you can have both the Black Mace and the Axe of Blind Fury on one character as you have "exchange" a weapon for those relics and the DP only has one weapon to exchange :(
To be honest, the guaranteed "you can't use your melee weapon against me" seems a bit over the top to me. Seems almost nothing except tailored characters running around with double power fists will be able to touch her in a challenge. I look at these rules and then look at my codex's "duelist" Lucius and just shake my head.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Konrax wrote: I think kharn would be a good contender.
If she can't kill him in 1 round of combat he will for sure kill her in one round.
2+ to hit and 2+ to wound with no saves.
Kharn will at least get a 5+ invuln, and the plasma pistol could get a wound or two as well.
Kharn would be punked as he couldn't use gorechild so she would get her saves
lustigjh wrote: I vote for Lelith Hesperax in the challenge. Stats are 9 9 3 3 3 9 6 9. She ignores armor innately, rerolls To Hit and To Wound, and has a 3++ in combat. She only costs 150 points to boot.
I also pick Lelith. Funny enough, Both have crazy hair. So this could be a 70's throw back duel. (or was it 80's?)
Plenty of options here can beat her in a duel. And plenty of them cost substantially less than she does. The question is can anyone do it for cheaper than 120pts (she's 200).
First up if she's using disarming strike she loses an attack (so 3 attacks not 4), if she doesn't then the Herald gets +1 attack for 2 specialist weapons and is wounding on 2's not 3's (the greater blade is also +1 str as well as mastercrafted).
Assuming Zan uses disarming strike to remove the greater etherblade
Herald striking back (4 attacks) 3 x (1/3) x (5/6)=5/6 wounds (again I'm not sure how to fact in the re-roll to hit from master-crafted, but again regardless 5/6 > 160/243).
The fact is Zan has no save against an etherblade (ap2 at int), where as the Herald has the benefit of higher toughess to wound, then 2 levels of saves (yeah I know FNP isn't technically a save) having a 1/3 chance twice to block the hits from Zan.
Well cant argue with that. so bar has been lowered to 100 points.
Konrax wrote: They have the same weaponskill so it would come down to a straight roll off for disarming strike.
I think he stands a decent chance still
Disarming Strike is now automatic, no roll is needed. Also, Kharn has -5 WS (so he would hit Jain Zar on 5+) because of JZ's super-mask.
Actually, Kharn auto-hits on a 2+ regardless of his own or his opponent's weapon skill due to Gorechild's special rule. I believe the special weapon's rules remain in place, as even though he can't actually use the weapon itself against her, the weapon doesn't say only attacks made from Gorechild get the auto-hit 2+ bonus. Though this doesn't change the fact that Jain Zar would tear him to shreds.
Konrax wrote: They have the same weaponskill so it would come down to a straight roll off for disarming strike.
I think he stands a decent chance still
Disarming Strike is now automatic, no roll is needed. Also, Kharn has -5 WS (so he would hit Jain Zar on 5+) because of JZ's super-mask.
Actually, Kharn auto-hits on a 2+ regardless of his own or his opponent's weapon skill due to Gorechild's special rule. I believe the special weapon's rules remain in place, as even though he can't actually use the weapon itself against her, the weapon doesn't say only attacks made from Gorechild get the auto-hit 2+ bonus. Though this doesn't change the fact that Jain Zar would tear him to shreds.
but gorechild is a weapon, that he will not be able to use......
To be honest, the guaranteed "you can't use your melee weapon against me" seems a bit over the top to me. Seems almost nothing except tailored characters running around with double power fists will be able to touch her in a challenge. I look at these rules and then look at my codex's "duelist" Lucius and just shake my head.
It would be fine if it wasnt COMBINED on a character with Str4 T4, 2+ save -5WS and Init, and an AP2 at init weapon.
Konrax wrote: They have the same weaponskill so it would come down to a straight roll off for disarming strike.
I think he stands a decent chance still
Disarming Strike is now automatic, no roll is needed. Also, Kharn has -5 WS (so he would hit Jain Zar on 5+) because of JZ's super-mask.
Actually, Kharn auto-hits on a 2+ regardless of his own or his opponent's weapon skill due to Gorechild's special rule. I believe the special weapon's rules remain in place, as even though he can't actually use the weapon itself against her, the weapon doesn't say only attacks made from Gorechild get the auto-hit 2+ bonus. Though this doesn't change the fact that Jain Zar would tear him to shreds.
Jain Zar completely removes the weapon from the user's wargear list:
Before rolling To Hit whilst in a challenge, Jain Zar can choose to nominate one of her opponent’s melee weapons. Her opponent counts as not being equipped with that weapon until the end of the phase.
Cheapest? I'm going with a dark harlequin troupe master with the warlord trait that lets him auto kill someone that kills him in a challenge on a 4(?)+. You only get the trait 1/6th of the time (ignoring warlord trait rerolls), and even then, it only works half the time, so I'm losing points for reliability. That said, I just gave you 50/50 odds of taking out dear Jain at the low-low price of 35 points. ^_^
Wyldhunt wrote: Cheapest? I'm going with a dark harlequin troupe master with the warlord trait that lets him auto kill someone that kills him in a challenge on a 4(?)+. You only get the trait 1/6th of the time (ignoring warlord trait rerolls), and even then, it only works half the time, so I'm losing points for reliability. That said, I just gave you 50/50 odds of taking out dear Jain at the low-low price of 35 points. ^_^
Rofl thats pretty funny. edit oh hang on a sec didnt they change removed from play to not effect EW?
Rocking in at 60 points, I'd like to say a Ruststalker Princeps
he has 4 CC weapons, one of which strike at I10 flat due to it's own rule, another two of which are AP2 on 6s to wound, and the fourth causes an auto-wound regardless of toughness at AP2 on a 6
He can also pop the +3 WS doctrine, which means after her debuff, he will still scrape hitting on 4s unless Jain is WS8 which I don't think she is (dependant on Zar's wording)
He also comes with a 4+ invun which means she tests to go blind after, and a FNP. Yes, not great odds to survive, but the sheer wait of his attacks should kill her due to her lack of an invun
Wyldhunt wrote: Cheapest? I'm going with a dark harlequin troupe master with the warlord trait that lets him auto kill someone that kills him in a challenge on a 4(?)+. You only get the trait 1/6th of the time (ignoring warlord trait rerolls), and even then, it only works half the time, so I'm losing points for reliability. That said, I just gave you 50/50 odds of taking out dear Jain at the low-low price of 35 points. ^_^
Rofl thats pretty funny. edit oh hang on a sec didnt they change removed from play to not effect EW?
Not that I'm aware of. I know that Insta-death doesn't work on EW, but I'm not sure about "removed as a casualty." Also, I checked. The Final Joke actually has slightly better than 50/50 odds of working. So assuming it can work at all, it has a better than 50% chance of taking out about 6 times its points.
@IHateNids: Hmm. Not sure that works out mathematically. You have 1 attack at initiative 10, which is nice, but it's not likely to get past her 2+ save. 3 of your attacks are ap2 on 6s to wound, but even if you hit with all three of them, you should only average a single to-wound roll of 6. So you'll probably do a wound a turn. Also, is he fearless? If not, you'll need to make a fear test which has a small chance of making you WS1 +3 for your doctrine - 5 for her mask. Which of course is untrue if I'm wrong about the order of operations. Also, depending on the wording, she might be able to take away one of those pseudo-rending attacks of yours with disarm.
If its in a challenge then I guess Telion is out. And so is every single Tau character.
A commisar w/ power fist could get pretty damn lucky, but for a sure kill you'd want a captain, chapter master, or something along those lines. Maybe Bjorn the Fell handed?
Automatically Appended Next Post: If its in a challenge then I guess Telion is out. And so is every single Tau character.
A commisar w/ power fist could get pretty damn lucky, but for a sure kill you'd want a captain, chapter master, or something along those lines. Maybe Bjorn the Fell handed?
luky7dayz wrote: If its in a challenge then I guess Telion is out. And so is every single Tau character.
A commisar w/ power fist could get pretty damn lucky, but for a sure kill you'd want a captain, chapter master, or something along those lines. Maybe Bjorn the Fell handed?
Ah, but how many of those beat the record-holder at 100 or 130 points (whichever we landed on)? Pretty sure Bjorn is closer to 200 than 100. The commisar is cheap, but he shouldn't be winning that fight regardless of what the Black Library novels tell you.
@Bharring: She'll actually probably have 4 or 5 attacks. She only has 3 if she's not charging and is using disarm. If the person she's fighting has doubles of their special weapon (like your CM with 2 axes), it's probably better to let them keep the second axe thus giving both the CM and herself +1 attack. It only gives the CM a 1/6 chance of wounding her (5+ to hit, 4+ to wound unless axes are +1 strength), but each of her attacks brings her that much closer to killing him before he strikes.
ML 1 Chaos Sorceror with Force weapon, Power weapon and Aura of Dark Glory who has rolled Iron Arm will kill her, but it'll take forever.
Hits on 5's with 2 attacks/round, wounds on 2's, no saves.
2 * 2/6 * 5/6 = .555 wounds/round (5.4 rounds to kill)
JZ hits on 3's with 4 attacks/round, wounds on 6's, saves on 5++
4 * 4/6 * 1/6 * 2/6 = .296 wounds/round (6.75 rounds to kill)
Only 90 points, but relies on rolling iron arm, so only works 1/6th of the time. Add more ML's for better chance of rolling IA and sigil for better defence, but those all cost more points.
On an unrelated note, Jain is pretty noncompetitive because her abilities don't suit the current state of the game. If melee blobs ever become the meta again though, she's pretty beastly.
According to my math, Jain with a 5-man unit of ghost-sword Wraith Blades will wipe out a 20-man beserker blob without losing a single model on average.
@IHateNids: Hmm. Not sure that works out mathematically. You have 1 attack at initiative 10, which is nice, but it's not likely to get past her 2+ save. 3 of your attacks are ap2 on 6s to wound, but even if you hit with all three of them, you should only average a single to-wound roll of 6. So you'll probably do a wound a turn. Also, is he fearless? If not, you'll need to make a fear test which has a small chance of making you WS1 +3 for your doctrine - 5 for her mask. Which of course is untrue if I'm wrong about the order of operations. Also, depending on the wording, she might be able to take away one of those pseudo-rending attacks of yours with disarm.
On the first turn it takes a 6 to be AP2
On every turn after that all attacks are AP2
@IHateNids: Hmm. Not sure that works out mathematically. You have 1 attack at initiative 10, which is nice, but it's not likely to get past her 2+ save. 3 of your attacks are ap2 on 6s to wound, but even if you hit with all three of them, you should only average a single to-wound roll of 6. So you'll probably do a wound a turn. Also, is he fearless? If not, you'll need to make a fear test which has a small chance of making you WS1 +3 for your doctrine - 5 for her mask. Which of course is untrue if I'm wrong about the order of operations. Also, depending on the wording, she might be able to take away one of those pseudo-rending attacks of yours with disarm.
On the first turn it takes a 6 to be AP2
On every turn after that all attacks are AP2
Oh, I'm far from certain on the math involved, but it's doable I think.
It's also possible to get Zealot for another 10(?) points, which puts the Ruststalker at 70 points, which could also tip the scale a little more toward him.
BlaxicanX wrote: On an unrelated note, Jain is pretty noncompetitive because her abilities don't suit the current state of the game. If melee blobs ever become the meta again though, she's pretty beastly.
According to my math, Jain with a 5-man unit of ghost-sword Wraith Blades will wipe out a 20-man beserker blob without losing a single model on average.
Wouldn't it be crazy if stuff started having 6-7 CC attacks standard and pseudo-rending or AP2?
BlaxicanX wrote: According to my math, Jain with a 5-man unit of ghost-sword Wraith Blades will wipe out a 20-man beserker blob without losing a single model on average.
Well, Berzerkers are also rather terrible, so it's not all that impressive.
BlaxicanX wrote: A DK would be hitting on 5's, her ability makes him WS1. :p
I believe it would still win though.
IH Smashfucker sounds pretty badass. How much does he cost?
Chapter Master Smashf**ker is about 260 points IIRC, and he is definitely an expensive face wrecking machine. He has issues against certain IC's that have eternal warrior though, you should check 1d4chan for specifics on that.
I have never used him before just observed, read, and heard some craziness ensue.
If you got an Iron Hands or space marine army that can fit him, and you can afford the points, and you absolutely want that character dead as dead can be, then give it a shot.
There are many many many cheaper choices though. This guy even with codex update makes sure Abaddon keeps the nickname "Failbaddon the Armless."
I rather doubt that a Solitaire can take Jain Zar. He simply doesn't have any weapons that can do enough damage. Both of the CCWs that he carries are AP2; whilst one is basically Rending, the other is a separate S6/AP2 attack that is rolled separately.
One of those will be remove by Jain Zar (due to Disarm), and he'll have to strike at WS4/I5 instead of his usual WS9/I10. Solitaires are, quite frankly, not very good for killing characters with exceptional saves. TBH, I'd say that a Solitaire is there to positively mulch a horde more than anything else.
Actually any MC character has an excellent chance to kill Jain Zar.
I think the nurgle herald will probably be about as cheap as it gets and still be talking a an easy win.
The most popular character build that could punk jain zar is the double powerfist nurgle chaos lord on bike.
I am going to put forward any character with the caveat his unit wipes the other unit so their extra attacks go on Jain Zar. Realistically this is probably going to also be the most common method to kill her "in a challenge" as well. Sooo...Deathwing Knights Sarge!
BTW berzerker blobbs are bully units. They cannot hold their own against any pretty much any melee specialist unit their points value due to their poor AP weapons, lowish strength, and poor durability.
yeah, I'm still going with Solitaire with Cegorach's rose. 160pts. 3+ invuln. Take away the caress or the Rose, but not both. WS 9, I 10, 6A (unless he blitzes, then it's 10). Jain Zar still hitting 1st on 3's but with only 3 attacks.
so forgetting Blitz, or anyone charging (changes things for both, although more likely solitaire would be charging), Zar will only get .44 wounds total. Solitaire striking 2nd, 6 attacks (because 2nd melee weapon not usable).
If using caress (so Rose is gone). 1.38 wounds for the Solitaire. If caress taken away and using Rose, it's 2.35 wounds for the Solitaire. Either way, the Sol comes out on top.
edit: although I know the first number is not exactly right as I don't know the exact odds of rolling at least 1 6, or multiple 6s. The 1.38 is calculated with 1 6 showing up in the 6 attacks. Of course, he could fail to roll a 6 or he could roll, 2, 3, 4 etc. each 6 rolled is an auto wound on Zar. Either way, the odds are still stacked highly in the Solitaire's favour. I also screwed up the Kiss's numbers (it's only 1 attack) but it's still greater than Zar (.86 wounds I think, still twice as good as Zar)
Frozocrone wrote: Not sure if mentioned but a Solitaire could put up a fight,
Not really, and not for very long. Jain Zar will have a wounding rate of ~88% for each successful hit, versus the Solitaire's ~33% woundrate for each successful hit.
More or less, Jain Zar will wound the Solitaire with 9/10 hits, versus only 3/10 hits for the Solitaire. IIRC the Solitaire gets more Attacks, but still only S3/AP-, with either pseudo-rending or a bonus S6/AP2 attack. The 3++/3W of the Solitaire will hold Jain Zar up for a few rounds of combat, but not many.
Maybe if you got several Solitaires to try and swamp her, or go for a debuff via Shadowseers. One of the Phantasmancy powers, for example, forces an enemy unit to only hit on 6's in combat (!). Solitaires will be WS4 (Zar's debuff) versus Zar's natural WS7, so have to hit on 4+, but if you could cast Fog of Dreams onto Zar, then a Solitaire might be able to punk her. TBH I'd actually say that you'd have better luck pitting an Eversor against Zar in that situation (Zar under Fog of Dreams), as the drug-fueled psychotic-walking-apocalypse has enough attacks (and IIRC one is 2+ Poison) to crush her, even when taking the penalties of -5 WS/I. Of course, if you do that then there's not much reason to not just throw a Culexus at her instead, so....*
ansacs wrote: Actually any MC character has an excellent chance to kill Jain Zar.
I think the nurgle herald will probably be about as cheap as it gets and still be talking a an easy win.
The most popular character build that could punk jain zar is the double powerfist nurgle chaos lord on bike.
I am going to put forward any character with the caveat his unit wipes the other unit so their extra attacks go on Jain Zar. Realistically this is probably going to also be the most common method to kill her "in a challenge" as well. Sooo...Deathwing Knights Sarge!
BTW berzerker blobbs are bully units. They cannot hold their own against any pretty much any melee specialist unit their points value due to their poor AP weapons, lowish strength, and poor durability.
WRTMC characters, it's a cost issue. Dreadknights are about the only thing that is both a MC, a character, and relatively cheap (particularly compared to Zar), that fit the bill. Honestly, I think that at this point the best options for killing Zar in combat are going to be to either sic a Culexus on her, or roll Hero's Path and an Eversor and try and roll Fog of Dreams to punk her with the Solitaire+Eversor working together (Solitaire rips apart Zar's squad, Eversor rips apart Zar).
*Vindicare Assassins are poor against multi-wound characters in general, whilst a Callidus will just be disarmed, as it has an AP2 combat weapon that can actually hurt Zar (as opposed to the pseudo-Rending and AP3-or-poorer weapons of a Solitaire/Eversor).
Incidentally, Lelith Hesperax with FC might do it- she can ignore armor by dint of a special rule rather than a weapon, and gets re-rolls for To-Hit/-Wound. Hesperax even has a 3++ in combat, negating the majority of damage that Zar can do with S4/AP2/Shred. Oh, and much like a Culexus, she can't be disarmed.
bullyboy wrote: yeah, I'm still going with Solitaire with Cegorach's rose. 160pts. 3+ invuln. Take away the caress or the Rose, but not both. WS 9, I 10, 6A (unless he blitzes, then it's 10). Jain Zar still hitting 1st on 3's but with only 3 attacks.
so forgetting Blitz, or anyone charging (changes things for both, although more likely solitaire would be charging), Zar will only get .44 wounds total. Solitaire striking 2nd, 6 attacks (because 2nd melee weapon not usable).
If using caress (so Rose is gone). 1.38 wounds for the Solitaire. If caress taken away and using Rose, it's 2.35 wounds for the Solitaire. Either way, the Sol comes out on top.
edit: although I know the first number is not exactly right as I don't know the exact odds of rolling at least 1 6, or multiple 6s. The 1.38 is calculated with 1 6 showing up in the 6 attacks. Of course, he could fail to roll a 6 or he could roll, 2, 3, 4 etc. each 6 rolled is an auto wound on Zar. Either way, the odds are still stacked highly in the Solitaire's favour.
Culexus still does it better, because Etherium means Zar has to fit at WS1 vs the Cul's WS3, meaning she'll hit on 5's and he'll be hitting on 3's. He also can't be disarmed at all, and is a great way to also counter psykers and even Invisistars. Oh, and a Culexus also costs only 145 points and has native Infiltrate, versus the 160 points of the Solitaire.
you're off on your numbers whiskey, solitaire tops zar for wounds. zar has 4 attacks base, 3 if she uses her Disarming Strike rule. She'll hit the Solitaire on 3's, wound on 3's, and the sol saves on 3's. she only wounds him .444 each round of combat. The Solitaire with Cegorach's Rose dishes out more wounds due to the special weapons (can't remove both, only one. The Caress will put an auto wound on any 6. The Rose is almost an auto wound due to Master Crafted and Shred.
bullyboy wrote: you're off on your numbers whiskey, solitaire tops zar for wounds. zar has 4 attacks base, 3 if she uses her Disarming Strike rule. She'll hit the Solitaire on 3's, wound on 3's, and the sol saves on 3's. she only wounds him .444 each round of combat. The Solitaire with Cegorach's Rose dishes out more wounds due to the special weapons (can't remove both, only one. The Caress will put an auto wound on any 6. The Rose is almost an auto wound due to Master Crafted and Shred.
Let's have fun with math!
Before I get started, I'm going to mention that I'll try to cover as many variables as possible, but I won't cover all of them. For comparison between multiple options, I will consider the following characters:
Spoiler:
-Jain Zar, @ 200 points (obviously)
-Solitaire, @ 145 points (base price; Cegorach's Rose is an additional +15. IMO it's not really worth it since your opponent will almost certainly Disarm it*)
-Lelith Hesperax, @ 150 points (base price, don't bother with the Impaler as her League Apart rule overrides it anyways)
-Drazhar, @190 points
-Eversor, @ 135 points
-Culexus, @140 points
-Callidus, @ 150 points
-Crowe, @ 175 points
-Lucius, @ 165 points
-Kharn, @ 160 points
-Obyron, @ 120 points
-Mephiston, @ 175 points
-Swarmlord, @ 285 points
*I don't consider paying points for something you won't get to use in conditions where it would matter most to be a great idea.
Solitaire results; he does better than I expected, TBH. Still, I'm not sold on him against Zar; I don't think he's really a great choice, since he's very reliant on what weapon is Disarmed (IMO).
Spoiler:
Solitaire vs Jain Zar, locked in combat, Disarm Kiss Jain Zar is WS7/I7, S/T4. Solitaire is WS4/I5, S/T3, due to the Mask of Jain Zar.
Zar will swing with 3 attacks, get two hits, and inflict ~1.78 wounds, for ~0.59 unsaved wounds Solitaire will swing back with 6 attacks, for 3 hits, and ~0.167 unsaved wounds, +1 more for the Caress. Total ~1.167 unsaved wounds for the Solitaire.
Addendum: Zar is actually doing more damage to a Solitaire than you'd think. I believe you've missed that Zar's weapon also has Shred, allowing her to re-roll failed To-Wound rolls.
Solitaire vs Zar, Zar charges, Disarm Kiss Zar is 4 Attacks due to charge bonus, for ~2.67 hits, ~2.37 wounds, and ~0.79 unsaved wounds Solitaire will swing as above, for ~1.167 unsaved wounds on Zar
Zar will probably kill the Soli before he kills her, due to the Initiative difference. However, the Solitaire will absolutely have put a big dent in her, to the point that a bunch of regular Harlies toting Caresses could probably finish her off.
Solitaire vs Zar, Solitaire Blitzes, Disarm Kiss Zar 3 Attacks, for ~0.59 unsaved wounds
Solitaire 11 Attacks (Blitz+Charge), ~5.5 hits, ~1.83 wounds, ~0.31 unsaved wounds from basic attacks
Caress provides ~1.84 additional wounds from AP2, for a total of ~2.15 unsaved wounds.
Looks like if a Solitaire manages to Blitz Zar, and is lucky on the Disarm choice to keep his Caress, then he'll rip into her pretty handily. That is a few more "ifs" and "is lucky" than I'd say is desirable, however.
Time for a catfight with Hesperax vs Zar:
Spoiler:
Locked in combat Zar doesn't go for a Disarm, as Hesperax's AP2 is via a special rule, and her CCWs are otherwise "generic" weapons.
Zar will have 4 attacks, hitting on 3+, for ~2.67 hits, ~2.37 wounds, ~0.78 unsaved wounds Lelith will have 6 attacks, hitting on 4+, for ~4.5 hits, ~2.5 wounds, ~2.5 unsaved wounds
Zar charges Zar will have 5 attacks, hitting on 3+, for ~3.34 hits, ~2.97 wounds, ~0.98 unsaved wounds Lelith will, as before, put ~2.5 unsaved wounds on to Zar
Lelith charges Zar is, as above, ~0.78 unsaved wounds onto Lelith
Lelith will put out 7 attacks, ~5.25 hits, ~2.92 wounds, ~2.92 unsaved wounds
Note: all of the above results are without factoring PfP. Here's some of that:
Holy gak, Lelith Hesperax is nearly guaranteed to kill Jain Zar in a single round of combat if she charges first! Even if she doesn't charge first, she's pretty much guaranteed to kill Jain Zar in 2 rounds of combat. I think DE players will be really stoked to hear that! If you get to Turn 4, and can charge Hesperax into Zar's unit, Hesperax is guaranteed to kill Zar, with nearly two wounds worth of overkill!
Considering Hesperax also costs ~75% of Zar, that's a fantastically good deal.
Time for Drazhar to step up to the plate:
Spoiler:
Locked in combat, no Disarm Zar will have 4 attacks, hitting on 3+, for ~2.67 hits, ~2.23 wounds, and pushes through:
-2.23 unsaved wounds if on Turn 1
-1.86 unsaved wounds if on Turn 2
-1.49 unsaved wounds if on Turn 3+
Drazhar will have 4 attacks, hitting on 5+, for ~1.33 hits, and ~1.11 wounds, ~1.11 unsaved wounds
Zar charges, no Disarm Zar will apply ~2.97 AP2 wounds to Drazhar. When referencing PfP, this becomes:
-~2.47 unsaved Turn 2
-~1.98 unsaved Turn 3+
Zar charges, Disarms Zar's damage output can be referenced from the "locked in combat" section. He'll then strike back with ~0.15 unsaved wounds and die in either the second or third round of combat.
Drazhar charges, no Disarm Drazhar will strike with ~1.39 unsaved wounds. He still dies in an ensuing round of combat, but might take Zar with him if is never Disarmed.
Drazhar charges, Zar Disarms Zar applies ~1.5 AP2 wounds to Drazhar, who then applies ~0.19 unsaved wounds. Zar's damage output is:
-~1.25 unsaved on Turn 2
-~1 unsaved wound on Turn 3+
So he dies in 3 rounds as long as Zar disarms him. He will do little to no damage if he is Disarmed in ever round.
Drazhar charges, PfP Turn 4 (for FC), no Disarm Zar applies ~1.49 unsaved wounds to Drazhar. He then trikes back with 5 attacks, at S6/AP2, for ~1.39 unsaved wounds.
So long as he's not disarmed in subsequent turns, he's got good odds to take Zar with him when he dies.
Drazhar charges, PfP Turn 6 (for FC+Rage), no Disarm Zar applies ~1.49 unsaved wounds to Drazhar. He then retaliates with 6 attacks, and inflicts ~2 wounds. In the next round he's about 50/50 to kill Zar.
Drazhar charges, PfP Turn 4+, Zar Disarms Zar rips his head off. Slowly.
Unfortunately it would seem that our wayward Phoenix Lord, the Master of Blades, is not up to the task of claiming Zar's head. If he rolls hot and isn't Disarmed, he can definitely do a lot of damage- but he's extremely reliant on his Demiklaives, which are also his only weapon. Without them he's just so much meat before the grinder.
Eversors go "WRRYYYYYY"
Spoiler:
Locked in combat, no Disarm Zar hits first with 4 attacks, ~2.67 hits, ~2 wounds, ~0.67 unsaved wounds Eversor strikes back with 5 attacks, ~1.67 hits, 1.62 wounds, ~0.27 unsaved wounds
Eversor charges, no Disarm Zar hits first, inflicting ~0.67 unsaved wounds
Eversor then goes nuts, with 8 attacks, ~2.66 hits, ~2.59 wounds, ~0.43 unsaved wounds
Honestly going through any more permutations is pointless. The Eversor dies pretty conclusively against Zar.
Alas, the Eversor temple is simply not up to the task of creating operatives that can kill Jain Zar. However, he does die very slowly, so an Eversor could be used as a sort of challenge-tarpit. Of course, your opponent could just deny the challenge (or accept it with an Exarch instead... though the Exarch will be so much meat before the Eversor, even with the debuffs).
Now for that soulless bastard, the Culexus!
Spoiler:
Locked in combat Zar will have 4 attacks, and because of being forced to hit on 5's, will only manage ~0.51 unsaved wounds on the Culexus.
Culexus will have 4 attacks, hit on 3's, and inflict ~1.33 unsaved wounds on Zar.
Culexus charges Zar will strike first, putting ~0.51 unsaved wounds on the Culexus
Culexus will strike with 5 attacks, and inflict ~1.67 unsaved wounds on Zar. In 2-3 rounds of combat, Zar will die like a bitch
Zar charges Zar strikes first with 5 attacks, and put ~0.62 unsaved wounds on the Culexus
Culexus will put ~1.33 unsaved wounds onto Zar. Zar still dies like a bitch after 2-4 rounds of combat.
The Culexus numbers are refreshingly simple. And also very badass. So far the only thing that can equal/exceed a Culexus is Lelith Hesperax, but she's also more expensive and a unique character.
The Callidus is next:
Spoiler:
Locked in combat, no Disarm Zar strikes first with 4 attacks, ~2.67 hits, ~2 wounds, ~1 unsaved wounds Callidus hits back with Phase Sword, for 5 attacks, ~1.67 hits, ~0.83 wounds, ~0.83 unsaved wounds -OR- Callidus hits back with Poison Blades, for 5 attacks, ~1.67 hits, ~1.11 wounds/~0.28 Rends, for ~0.47 unsaved wounds
Zar charges, no Disarm Zar strikes first with 5 attacks, ~3.34 hits, ~2.5 wounds, ~1.25 unsaved wounds Callidus hits back, for either ~0.83 unsaved w/ Phase Sword, -OR- ~0.47 unsaved w/ Poison Blades
Callidus charges, no Disarm Zar strikes first, for ~1 unsaved wound inflicted
Callidus strikes back with 6 attacks and 2 hits; w/ Phase Sword, this is 1 unsaved wound, w/ Poison Blades, for ~0.55 unsaved wounds
Disarm conditions If Zar charges+Disarms, then she'll inflict ~1 unsaved wound on the Callidus, taking 0.47-0.83 unsaved wounds in return (depending on the weapon Disarmed)
If Zar is charged+Disarms, then she'll inflict ~0.75 unsaved wounds, for 0.55-1 unsaved wounds taken.
If Zar Disarms the Poison Blades every turn, the Callidus will do significant damage but probably fail to kill Zar. Otherwise, the Callidus dies while inflicting moderate damage. Zar will most likely survive the fight. Also, a Callidus isn't a good choice as a challenge-tarpit, as the main reason an Eversor could potentially be used that way is due to the combination of a 4++ and FNP.
Castellan Crowe, champion of humanity (or not?)
Spoiler:
Locked in combat Zar will have 4 attacks, ~2.67 hits, ~2 wounds, but only ~0.5 unsaved wounds due to Crowe's re-rollable 4++
Crowe will have 3 attacks, 1 hit, ~0.5 wounds, ~0.5 unsaved wounds
Locked in combat, Hammerhand active on Crowe Zar inflicts ~0.5 unsaved wounds
Crowe lands ~0.67 unsaved wounds
Locked in combat, Cleansing Flame activated Zar and Crowe mutually land ~0.5 unsaved wounds on each other from combat;
Cleansing Flame will average ~7 auto-hits @S5/AP4/Soul Blaze, for ~0.78 unsaved wounds
Crowe deals a total of ~1.28 unsaved wounds to Zar.
Zar charges Zar strikes with 5 attacks, ~3.34 hits, ~2.51 wounds, ~0.63 unsaved wounds
Crowe deals 0.5-0.67 unsaved wounds, depending on whether or not he's cast Hammerhand (Zar will most likely not be in range of Cleansing Flame if she charges)
Crowe charges Crowe HoW's Zar for ~0.08 unsaved wounds
Zar deals ~0.5 unsaved wounds to Crowe before he swings
Crowe fights back with 4 attacks, ~1.33 hits, ~0.67 wounds
Total of ~0.75 unsaved wounds on Zar
Crowe charges, uses Hammerhand Crowe HoW does ~0.08 unsaved
Zar does ~0.5 unsaved
Crowe fights with 4 attacks, ~1.33 hits, ~0.89 unsaved wounds
Total of ~0.97 unsaved wounds on Zar
Crowe charges, uses Cleansing Flame HoW does ~0.08 unsaved
Zar does ~0.5 unsaved
Crowe inflicts ~0.67 unsaved
Cleansing Flame averages ~0.78 unsaved
Total of ~1.53 unsaved wounds on Zar
Crowe charges, uses Cleansing Flame and Hammerhand HoW deals ~0.08
Zar does ~0.5
Crowe inflicts ~0.89
Cleansing Flame does ~0.78
Total of ~1.75 unsaved wounds on Zar
Crowe can't be disarmed, as all he has is a single CCW; his AP2 comes from Smash. Due to a 4++ re-rollable save, he's fairly durable, but his 2W limits his tarpit-ness a good deal against Zar. If somebody is in Crowe's unit, has Sanctuary and manages to put it up, then Zar inflicts ~0.22-0.28 unsaved wounds. Crowe can certainly keep Zar held up for around 4 rounds of combat or so, which is pretty good and might be all the time you need. However, he heavily relies on his psychic powers to do damage, and if he wants a chance to kill Zar, he'll need a Librarian with Sanctuary to be part of his unit so that he can get a re-rollable 3++.
Now for some Chaos doods, starting with Lucius:
Spoiler:
Locked in combat Zar has 3 attacks, 2 hits, ~1.5 wounds, and inflicts ~1 unsaved wound Lucius has 7 attacks, ~2.33 hits, ~1.75 wounds, ~0.29 unsaved wounds, plus ~0.25 unsaved wounds from his Armor of Shrieking Souls, for ~0.54 unsaved wounds
Zar charges 4 attacks, ~2.67 hits, ~2 wounds, ~1.33 unsaved wounds Lucius fights back with ~0.29 unsaved wounds from basic combat and ~0.34 unsaved wounds from Armor of Shrieking Souls, for ~0.63 unsaved wounds
Lucius charges Zar inflicts ~1 unsaved wounds
Lucius inflicts ~0.33 unsaved wounds from combat and ~0.25 unsaved from Armor of Shrieking Souls, for ~0.57 unsaved wounds
Lucius Lash of Torment (-1A for an enemy in base contact), 5++, and Armor of Shrieking Souls (successful save inflicts an S4/AP2 hit on the attacker who inflicted the Wound that was saved against) make him durable in theory, but unfortunately he just can't stand up to her. Ultimately his main flaw in this matchup is a lack of AP2 in combat. S4/Shred doesn't take him very far, and the AP2 hits from his armor don't nearly make up for it, especially not against an opponent with AP3 or better combat weapons. Ironically this would make him very good at crushing a horde.
That swell guy Kharn:
Spoiler:
Locked in combat, no Disarm Zar has 4 attacks, ~2.67 hits, ~2 wounds, ~1.34 unsaved wounds Kharn has 5 attacks, ~4.17 hits, ~2.78 wounds, ~2.78 unsaved wounds
Pretty much, if your opponent is either an idiot, or there is a remote possibility that Gorechild is ruled to be an artefact and not a weapon (very unlikely), then Kharn will absolutely demolish Jain Zar. He's also only 10 points more than Lelith Hesperax, and 20 more than a Culexus, both of which can handily kill Zar as well.
A Necron challenger appears! (Obyron)
Spoiler:
Locked in combat, no Disarm Zar swings 4 times, for ~2.67 hits, ~0.99 unsaved wounds Obyron swings 3 times, gets 1 hit, and ~0.83 unsaved wounds; + ~0.37 unsaved from "Cleaving Counterblow", for ~1.2 unsaved wounds
Zar charges, no Disarm Zar swings 5 times, ~3.34 hits, for ~1.23 unsaved wounds Obyron swings 3 times, for ~0.83 initial unsaved, + ~0.46 unsaved from Cleaving Counterblow, for ~1.29 unsaved wounds
Obyron charges, no Disarm Zar inflicts ~0.99 unsaved
Obyron gets 4 attacks, for ~1.11 initial unsaved, + ~0.37 unsaved from Cleaving Counterblow, for ~1.48 unsaved wounds
Obviously, if Obyron is disarmed, he's dead meat. However, if he isn't and he managed to charge, he's got a chance to actually take Zar down. This will go up if he can get a bonus to his RP.
Mephiston, aka vampire Thor
Spoiler:
Locked in combat Zar has 4 attacks, ~2.67 hits, ~1.48 unsaved wounds Mephiston has 5 attacks, ~1.67 hits, ~1.11 wounds, ~0.19 unsaved wounds
Zar charges Zar has 5 attacks, ~3.34 hits, ~1.85 unsaved wounds Mephiston strikes back with ~0.19 unsaved wounds
Mephiston rolls & casts Iron Arm, Zar charges Zar cannot harm Mephiston, as he is now [youtube]T8
Mephiston will inflict ~1.39 unsaved wounds on Zar.
Mephiston rolls & casts Iron Arm, then gets the charge Zar cannot harm Mephiston due to T8
Mephiston inflicts ~1.67 unsaved wounds on Zar
If Mephiston rolls Iron Arm on the Biomancy table, then he can gain enough S/T that Zar can't hurt him, and he handily crushes her. A Nurgle Sorcerer with Iron Arm can do the same, though off-hand I don't recall how much that would cost. Note that Iron Arm can allow more "generic" Librarians to crush Jain Zar as well; Mephiston's main bonus is ML3, and S/T 5 at a base.
Now for the gribbly monstrosity, the Swarmlord:
Spoiler:
Locked in combat Zar will have 4 attacks, ~2.67 hits, and inflict ~0.41 unsaved wounds Swarmlord will have 5 attacks, ~2.5 hits, and inflict ~2.08 unsaved wounds
Zar charges 5 attacks, ~3.34 hits, and inflict ~0.51 unsaved wounds Swarmlord retaliates with ~2.08 unsaved wounds
Swarmlord charges Zar strikes first with ~0.41 unsaved wounds Swarmlord then hits with ~2.5 unsaved wounds
Disarming the Swarmlord would have little effect on the numbers; being S/T 6, and AP2 due to MC status, he handily squishes Jain Zar with minimal damage incurred. The catch is that he costs ~30% more than Jain Zar does, and isn't nearly as mobile.
As a general rule, it would seem that if you can get a combination of: high T, high invuln, AP2 via rules rather than weapons, and high attack numbers, you can punk Jain Zar. Some models do it way better than others- Lelith Hesperax, Culexus Assassins, MC-characters, and Iron Arm psykers are all examples.
However, of those, Hesperax and the Culexus would seem to be the most viable options. They're fairly inexpensive as beatstick characters go, and they're both nearly or absolutely guaranteed to kill Jain Zar. MC-characters are rare and also tend to be very expensive, whilst rolling Iron Arm on a psyker is no guarantee, unless you've got some ridiculous ML going on (anything that can get ML3+ is a fair possibility). The main issue that MC characters and Iron Arm psykers will face is the WS/I disparity, to the point that they'll need to be packing either high T (as in T6+) or a good invuln (4++ or better, preferably) in order to actually live through Jain Zar's attacks.
I think the biggest takeaway from the Swarmlord (and Iron Arm Mephiston) numbers is that if you can get something that's T6 and has some kind of AP2 melee, then you're pretty much going to crush Jain Zar, it's just a matter of how long it'll take.
Zar's honestly pretty helpless against anything T6/7- she just can't hurt it very effectively. The catch is, I think, that your opponent will probably figure this out, and so Zar might not end up in combat with a MC-character anyways.
Whereas a Culexus or Lelith Hesperax are much more difficult to avoid; the former because of Infiltrate and the 12" moonwalk zone he sets up, and the latter due to the fast-moving assault transport options the DE have.
Solitaires are a bit of both, in that they have a 12" move, access to assault transports, and can optionally be fielded as part of a formation that confers Infiltrate.
Thinking more on MC-character models (assuming that the Greater Daemons all have the "character" rule), then honestly a Daemons army wouldn't have much trouble with Jain Zar- they rely mostly on invulnerable saves, rarely have an armor save, and the Greater Daemons are all very difficult for Zar to hurt in the first place.
The downside, of course, is that MC-characters are going to end up being enormous fire magnets, so YMMV.
If a naked DP punks Jain Zar so easily, I would think any Greater Demon could.
It looks like 100pt custom Herald does it, or possibly some Ruststalker thing, provided its at least the second round of combat.
And then there's the simplistic Power Axe x2 CM who can do it even receiving the charge, although he costs 140pts.
The above options can punk her hard, but there are a lot of options that win.
Probably, the order of your options:
But the best way to kill her will be shooting.
Failing that, just overwhelm her. Bonus points if you can get rending or hidden power fists. If an Archon with Shadow field tanked her, would a Kalabite squad do her in?
Or have multiple characters. StormShield Captain takes the challenge while your Techmarine or Sarge kills her? Sarge eats the challenge while Smashfether smashes her?
If those options fail, there are a ton of options well below her price point that can do her in.
Failing that, big things like a naked DP, or Swarmy, or whatever will do a number on her.
I didn't run numbers for a naked Prince, as I used the Swarmlord for the example. Swarmlord is an expensive beatstick and is limited in certain ways (invuln is CC-only, for example), but he's a good baseline for MC characters.
I don't know about the Daemon Heralds- I'd have to run some numbers on that, and probably the double Axe CM. A Ruststalker Princeps I'm doubtful about though- even with Doctrina Imperatives to get to WS7, Zar will just debuff down to WS2.
Multiple characters does work... but that's also not the cheapest option. Moreover, given that the OP stipulates "cheapest character" rather than "best way" to kill Zar, I'd say that there's an unspoken acknowledgement that yes, shooting Zar to death is better.
The biggest obstacles to overcome with Zar are the -5WS/-5I debuff, Disarming Strike, and the AP2 melee. MC-characters work because they have Smash by default, along with high(er) base Strength and especially Toughness that makes the WS debuff and AP2 melee fairly irrelevant- Zar will just have too much trouble actually hurting MCs most of the time.
Units like a Culexus or Hesperax get around it by gaining AP2 combat via a special rule, and relying almost totally on an invulnerable save. The Culexus also has its own fantastic debuff, whilst Hesperax has Leage Apart and a ludicrously high base WS. Solitaires are sort of a second-rate option, though that's not to disparage them.
It's just that a Solitaire's success is heavily weighted on what weapon is Disarmed, making him very chancy.
realistically everyone would just shoot her off the table.
