Assuming they arent gonna be featured in the Space Marine codex releasing soon (and rumors say they won't), what will the fate of BTs be, and until then, how will the 40k scene deal with BT players?

1) BT will receive their own codex, making them independent, or at least a supplement officially binding them to the 2015 Space Marine codex.

2) Since all BT have at this point are basically 2 named IC HQs, a crusader squad (that's 1 special and 1 heavy (includes power sword/fist) and wargear access for the sarge per 5 guys, with the option of everyone swapping their bolters for cc-weapons) and a dedicated transport LRC as unique units of their own, chances are they will cease to exist.


If 1 is true, will the soon-to-be-outdated 6th edition Codex: Space Marines with BT chapter tactics be the "official BT codex" until we get the new book?

Or will we be forced to buy the new SM book and play our BT as vanilla marines with b&w color scheme until the BT dex releases?

If 2 is true, obv. we will have to do the above indefinitely.

I'm of course talking about how tourneys and pick up games will rule things. Obv. it's a different issue in private gaming groups.

It's hard to say for certain.

I for one don't think GW would pass up the opportunity to sell another codex, lol

Especially considering the existing models, which are totally A-Okay

I'm expecting they will all get eaten by Tyranids.

As of right now there isn't even any word on ANY fist chapters. Fist founding chapters might get their own dex or supplement.

BT are a Second Founding Chapter... unless you meant "Fist Founding" as a pun on the fact that they're a break-away group of the Imperial Fists.

I mean the fact that the imperial fists of today, crimson fists, and the black tenplar are all originators of the old imperial fists legion. And that none of them are confirmed for the codex yet.

To be honest it is quite unsettling that 14 days before release there still havent been any actual rumors of what the new space marine codex will contain, except the odd one about formations.

I would be willing to get that they will remain in the Codex: Space Marines (or whatever they are going to call it). If they end up getting their own codex again, they would probably end up losing some units(Stormtalon, LSS, Centurions, AA tanks, etc.) in the process. They really don't have the amount of exclusive stuff anymore to warrant a codex of their own.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I would be willing to get that they will remain in the Codex: Space Marines (or whatever they are going to call it). If they end up getting their own codex again, they would probably end up losing some units(Stormtalon, LSS, Centurions, AA tanks, etc.) in the process. They really don't have the amount of exclusive stuff anymore to warrant a codex of their own.

This is why I'm guessing there will be a fist codex. Imperial fist, crimson fist, and black templar.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I would be willing to get that they will remain in the Codex: Space Marines (or whatever they are going to call it). If they end up getting their own codex again, they would probably end up losing some units(Stormtalon, LSS, Centurions, AA tanks, etc.) in the process. They really don't have the amount of exclusive stuff anymore to warrant a codex of their own.

This is why I'm guessing there will be a fist codex. Imperial fist, crimson fist, and black templar.

Doubtful. Imperial Fists are even more Codex-adherent than Ultramarines are.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I would be willing to get that they will remain in the Codex: Space Marines (or whatever they are going to call it). If they end up getting their own codex again, they would probably end up losing some units(Stormtalon, LSS, Centurions, AA tanks, etc.) in the process. They really don't have the amount of exclusive stuff anymore to warrant a codex of their own.

This is why I'm guessing there will be a fist codex. Imperial fist, crimson fist, and black templar.

Doubtful. Imperial Fists are even more Codex-adherent than Ultramarines are.

Agreed. However what's the explanation for thodd three chapters being the only ones with nothing shown or mentioned for them whatsoever so far? All fist chapters no longer exist? They were the only interesting ones of the whole codex. Literally everything else is boring and dumb in the entire dex

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I would be willing to get that they will remain in the Codex: Space Marines (or whatever they are going to call it). If they end up getting their own codex again, they would probably end up losing some units(Stormtalon, LSS, Centurions, AA tanks, etc.) in the process. They really don't have the amount of exclusive stuff anymore to warrant a codex of their own.

This is why I'm guessing there will be a fist codex. Imperial fist, crimson fist, and black templar.

Doubtful. Imperial Fists are even more Codex-adherent than Ultramarines are.

Agreed. However what's the explanation for thodd three chapters being the only ones with nothing shown or mentioned for them whatsoever so far? All fist chapters no longer exist? They were the only interesting ones of the whole codex. Literally everything else is boring and dumb in the entire dex

The preview images people have found from the next White Dwarf have a picture of the new Assault Marine kit done in Imperial Fist colors. I think it is crap that they aren't getting an upgrade kit, but it is what it is.

That sucks man.. blah

I anticipate that Black Templars will continue to exist as a formation within Codex: Space Marines that allows Tactical SM to exchange their Bolters for BP & Chainsword, with a Chapter-specific formation bonus.

The Codex probably uses the Decurion style army building, and the rumoured doctrines.

I guess it's possible there are no more chapter distinctive stuff, but descriptions of how different chapters fight and what units they use, and you can tailor your army for very specific playstyles and units, resembling the common strategies of your chapter.

I atleast don't see nothing wrong in that. Like mentioned above, perhaps it could also be a supplement.

I think GW is moving away from Supplements in 7E, as part of their process to (slightly) simplify army building and rules. One book contains all of the rules, rather than cross-referencing to a separate book.

GW has done Decurion for all of the 7E-style Codices, so C:SM should be no different.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I think GW is moving away from Supplements in 7E, as part of their process to (slightly) simplify army building and rules. One book contains all of the rules, rather than cross-referencing to a separate book.

GW has done Decurion for all of the 7E-style Codices, so C:SM should be no different.

Isnt dark eldar 7th ed? They don't have a Decurion...

Yes they have a unique detachment but not similar at all to the others in style.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe they are 6th? Cant remember lol

I'm thinking DE was a 6E Codex released in 7E. Minor armies like DE get maintenance releases at the tail of an edition, not to launch a new edition.

With Space Marines (finally) coming out, at this point, the 7E Codices are in full swing. I think that Necrons are the first "true" 7E Codex, and represent when 40k 7E was originally planned to release, with Eldar, Mechanicus and SM shortly thereafter.

GW accelerated the 7E release date, so there is some oddity with the early Codices.

I'd like the see Black Templars get deny on 2+, even on enemy blessings. Make the Eldar pretend to work to win.

Any codex that has photographs of units instead of artwork is a 7th edition codex, because the first one that looked like this was released after 7th edition BRB released.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Any codex that has photographs of units instead of artwork is a 7th edition codex, because the first one that looked like this was released after 7th edition BRB released.

True. But starting with Necrons, they moved Formations more fully into the book (and stopped releasing supplements like Champions of Fenris). They also used those now-in-the-codex-formations for the new Decurion-style army organisation.

So kinda 7.5 from there on out.

I'd be fine with playing out of the current 6e codex as we wait for the new and updated Black Templar Codex.

It might be in the winter, but it will return the Eternal Crusade to its rightful place of power as THE assault army. I like how people think Blood Angels are the assault army. No no, they are the fast/angry army. fast movement, fast tanks and a bloodthirsty rage.

Close combat is not about rage, it is about dedication, hatred, and faith. You can hate something and still be calm about it. No need to lose your mind over it. In fact, losing your mind is close to heresy.

Although I have heard rumors of Land Raider squads and Land Raider formations. That sounds like the perfect formation for a Black Templar squad.

So I suppose only time will tell.

Currently SW are the meq assault army. Because TWC. Anyone whoever thought that BA were the meq assault army hasn't tried using them that way. BA aren't really anything atm other than Skitaari taxis and SM -1.

 Icculus wrote:
I'd be fine with playing out of the current 6e codex as we wait for the new and updated Black Templar Codex.

Close combat is not about rage, it is about dedication, hatred, and faith. You can hate something and still be calm about it. No need to lose your mind over it. In fact, losing your mind is close to heresy.

To the BT, isn't just about everything tanatmount to heresy, to be terminated with extreme prejudice?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
I'd be fine with playing out of the current 6e codex as we wait for the new and updated Black Templar Codex.

Close combat is not about rage, it is about dedication, hatred, and faith. You can hate something and still be calm about it. No need to lose your mind over it. In fact, losing your mind is close to heresy.

To the BT, isn't just about everything tanatmount to heresy, to be terminated with extreme prejudice?

I noticed that sentence ended in a question mark. You were expressing doubt! HERETIC!

On the contrary - I was testing you.

 Icculus wrote:
Close combat is not about rage, it is about dedication, hatred, and faith. You can hate something and still be calm about it. No need to lose your mind over it. In fact, losing your mind is close to heresy.

No need for close combat, actually. You can channel dedication, hatred and faith through bolt rounds pretty well too. Also comes in promethium flavor, for extra crispy.

Their spot in the chapter tactics section will be replaced with Blood Ravens

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
On the contrary - I was testing you.

This is a sign of deception HERETIC!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I anticipate that Black Templars will continue to exist as a formation within Codex: Space Marines that allows Tactical SM to exchange their Bolters for BP & Chainsword, with a Chapter-specific formation bonus.

That would be a huge injustice to the largest of the Chapters. But it is par for GW.

it's no more an injustice than what Iyanden received. Or Biel Tan. Or Ulthwe. And far less than what Alaitoc received.

And besides, under most circumstances, Codex: Chaos Space Marines does a better job of representing Black Templars than any of the loyalist books.

Now I know you're a heretic.

Nope. I'm more anti-Chaos than you could ever imagine.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Nope. I'm more anti-Chaos than you could ever imagine.

The diamond-cutters on your avatar suggests otherwise. Slaanesh is proud of you (the rock and roll, coke sniffing, motorboating side of him, anyway)

GW being GW I could see BT getting their own dex as long as GW felt they could make money off a separate book. At the current pace all armies will be updated soon to 7th edition - then what will GW do to make lots of money off all those rule books when they are done (good thing that GW is a model company and not a game company or the rules would be even more expensive). I wonder if 8th edition is looming on the horizon - then all the dexes can be redone in 1-2 years again!

I know it is a rather novel concept for Dakka, but how about instead of speculating on what will happen about an exclusion that is only speculated at this time, why not wait and see whether BT are actually excluded first when the new book is released?

Ducks -

Because speculation is fun!

 Skriker wrote:
I know it is a rather novel concept for Dakka, but how about instead of speculating on what will happen about an exclusion that is only speculated at this time, why not wait and see whether BT are actually excluded first when the new book is released?

Ducks -

"I don't understand the point of discussion boards." -Skriker 2015

I would bet money they remain, same with fists. Maybe GW would sell them as a supplement to make money, but that would be sad if you wanted to play BT from day 1 and fork out for 2 dexes!!! I hope it doesn't come to that.

Dark Angels on the other hand, watch that space, that will be interesting

Well I can see why they didnt make a new BT upgrade sprue, the existing one is awesome, and actually way better than these new upgrade sprues for UM, BA, and DA. So many more pieces, arms and even vehicle upgrades are available from the current edition of the BT upgrade.

And based on the current run of New armies, I doubt GW will go back and re-create a BT codex. They took the time to do Admech, Skitarii, Imperial Knights, and Harlequins before they decided to go and revive something from earlier editions *Cough*Sisters*Cough*.

I'd enjoy a BT codex, but at this point I don't see it happening. And to keep the BT range in the current SM codex just seems like the most reasonable expectation from GW at this point.

 Smokeydubbs wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I anticipate that Black Templars will continue to exist as a formation within Codex: Space Marines that allows Tactical SM to exchange their Bolters for BP & Chainsword, with a Chapter-specific formation bonus.

That would be a huge injustice to the largest of the Chapters. But it is par for GW.

DA and their "Successor Chapters" would like to have a word. Agreed, though. Given that they are splitting books up again, I would not be surprised if Black Templars end up in their own codex. I just worry that they won't have enough unique stuff to justify one.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Smokeydubbs wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I anticipate that Black Templars will continue to exist as a formation within Codex: Space Marines that allows Tactical SM to exchange their Bolters for BP & Chainsword, with a Chapter-specific formation bonus.

That would be a huge injustice to the largest of the Chapters. But it is par for GW.

DA and their "Successor Chapters" would like to have a word. Agreed, though. Given that they are splitting books up again, I would not be surprised if Black Templars end up in their own codex. I just worry that they won't have enough unique stuff to justify one.

Well Black Templars used to be the biggest - but with the frantic recons to justify Dark Angels keeping a individual codex they may now be bigger - as Dark Angels army owner I lament the recent crap (IMO) that's been churned out for them.

Pretty much all Chapters could be represented by a page or two of Chapter specific rules as has been discussed at length on many threads....

The fluff in the most recent Space marines Codex confirmed their good relations with the Sororitas (Yey!) but massively reduced the number of Crusades (boo!).

If they want to make BlackTemplars a "Codex worthy" army - they just make units up - sadly then we get total trash (IMO) like Logan's sleigh, the Dark Angels flyers (ok all the GW SM flyers) and the rest.

I'd rather see some love for the actual First Founding Chapters who are often for more diverse than those they single out as "oohhh soo Special" - but then so are the Imperial Guard regiments and Chaos Space marines but hey.............

Icculus wrote:Well I can see why they didnt make a new BT upgrade sprue, the existing one is awesome, and actually way better than these new upgrade sprues for UM, BA, and DA. So many more pieces, arms and even vehicle upgrades are available from the current edition of the BT upgrade.

I'd enjoy a BT codex, but at this point I don't see it happening. And to keep the BT range in the current SM codex just seems like the most reasonable expectation from GW at this point.

The BT sprue is actually too much - it's got HUGE vehicle bitz where there should be more heads, chests, and esp. BP/CCW pairs. Really, if each sprue had 10 heads, 10 chests, 10 BP/CCWs, 4 bolters, special weapons, power weapons, and a few vehicle bitz, it'd be perfect. I'm almost ashamed of how many BT infantry sprues and bitz I traded for, along with beakie heads... Almost. Not really. OK, not. Actually bragging.

I would not mind a BT Codex, but I'm not holding my breath. They're not that different from other SM/CSM, but with GW doing so many niche armies, I could see it happening a years or two from now, after the SM Codex has lost its novelty.
____

Mr Morden wrote:Pretty much all Chapters could be represented by a page or two of Chapter specific rules as has been discussed at length on many threads....

If they want to make Black Templars a "Codex worthy" army - they just make units up - sadly then we get total trash (IMO) like Logan's sleigh, the Dark Angels flyers (ok all the GW SM flyers) and the rest.

I'd rather see some love for the actual First Founding Chapters who are often for more diverse than those they single out as "oohhh soo Special" - but then so are the Imperial Guard regiments and Chaos Space marines but hey.............

For how much overlap exists with the SM Chapters, a page of Chapter-specific rules in C:SM is the best approach. That's basically a formation, when you get down to it. And really, we don't need multiple versions of the same things floating around.

The last thing we need is more niche items for the sake of being different. Like special Land Raiders or special Predators/Rhinos. That's just silly.

For a new Black Templar stand alone codex, you could go to town with unique things like;

- Return of the 3W Reclusiarch + an optional retinue of both Cenobite Servitors & Chaplain Novitiates.

- Give BT Assault Squads the option to trade out either their ccw or pistol for a Storm Shield.
Add in option to give 0-2 models a Power toy/fist as part of the special weapon upgrades.

- Remove the Attack Bike from the Bike Squad entry, and instead, have BT Bike Squads consist of 3-5 Space Marines + 0-5 Scout Bikers.
Keep Attack Bikes as their own unit entry.

- Allow Termies to mix Hammernators into the basic tactical versions.

- Make Sword Brethren into a similar styled unit as Wolf Guard, able to mix both shooty and/or assault options into the same squad.

- Relic vehicles.


And that's just off the top of my head... I'm sure there's plenty of other 'Teutonic Knights' themes to explore and fit into the army... Perhaps an elite unit of Bikers all armed with Power Lances to act as 'Errant Knights' or some such?!
Or else a specialist unit dedicated to hunting down and burning & killing those filthy, heretic witches?!

All of the above ideas are awesome. I'd also like to see a larger benefit to not being allowed to take pyskers.

A deny the witch on a 4+, or maybe dice generated specifically for denying the witch, an army wide hatred (psykers) or something along those lines.

I'd also like to see Vows come back. That was a really unique feature that made it possible to play a Black Templar force in a variety of ways.

 Icculus wrote:
All of the above ideas are awesome. I'd also like to see a larger benefit to not being allowed to take pyskers.

A deny the witch on a 4+, or maybe dice generated specifically for denying the witch, an army wide hatred (psykers) or something along those lines.

I'd also like to see Vows come back. That was a really unique feature that made it possible to play a Black Templar force in a variety of ways.

I'd prefer 2+, as to really stick it to the Eldar.

Experiment 626 wrote:
For a new Black Templar stand alone codex, you could go to town with unique things like;

- Return of the 3W Reclusiarch + an optional retinue of both Cenobite Servitors & Chaplain Novitiates.

- Give BT Assault Squads the option to trade out either their ccw or pistol for a Storm Shield.
Add in option to give 0-2 models a Power toy/fist as part of the special weapon upgrades.

- Remove the Attack Bike from the Bike Squad entry, and instead, have BT Bike Squads consist of 3-5 Space Marines + 0-5 Scout Bikers.
Keep Attack Bikes as their own unit entry.

- Allow Termies to mix Hammernators into the basic tactical versions.

- Make Sword Brethren into a similar styled unit as Wolf Guard, able to mix both shooty and/or assault options into the same squad.

- Relic vehicles.


And that's just off the top of my head... I'm sure there's plenty of other 'Teutonic Knights' themes to explore and fit into the army... Perhaps an elite unit of Bikers all armed with Power Lances to act as 'Errant Knights' or some such?!
Or else a specialist unit dedicated to hunting down and burning & killing those filthy, heretic witches?!

Termies could have the option of special two-handed power swords of some sort- always thought that would be pretty cool and crusader-y. Maybe combat shields for neophytes as an option as well.

If Codex: Space Marines is going to be available with limited edition Black Templars cover, as rumored, then I think it's pretty safe to assume that Black Templars are getting folded into Codex: Space Marines.

That's probably a good thing, as BT have a very high duplication with the regular Codex; they really just need to be able to take BP&CCW in their Tactical Squads, rather than folding Scouts, Tacticals, Assault Marines and Devastators into a single unit.

Well now the real question is: What happens to the BT HQ options? The Emperors Champion, Grimaldus, and Helbrecht are all figureheads of the Black Templar, but this last codex made them all nigh unplayable. Do you think they will scrap them in this new book?

If so, it will be pretty easy to just customize a generic Chapter Master and call him Helbrecht, and you can even use the original model. I have been using the Emperors Champion model to represent the Company Champion from the Honor Guard squad. So there really wouldnt be a big change there.

But it would hurt morale to lose characters.

Tell that to Brother Bethor...

I think we just wait and see when the book comes out.

Well it looks like the BT are still in the codex!!

Crusader Squads are still a thing.
Squads that suffer an unsaved wound from shooting now get Rage and Counter attack! So if you shoot them, it only makes them angry.
Emperors Champion is now S6 AP2 all the time

That's actually pretty good.

1. BT still exist.
2. BT have a thematic CC bonus.
3. BT can take Crusader squads

That pretty much meets or exceeds all expectations.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
That's actually pretty good.

1. BT still exist.
2. BT have a thematic CC bonus.
3. BT can take Crusader squads

That pretty much meets or exceeds all expectations.

Yeah, I'm really tempted to just play my Chaos Marines as BT chapter tactics, as there's really no point in using the actual Chaos codex anymore when I don't feel like dropping 50%+ of my pts into daemonic stuff/allies.

Never thought I'd ever turn into a 'codex hopper', but really, considering the buffs Loyalists are getting, Chaos Marines on their own are a complete and utter joke now.

The rage and counter attack thing is HUGE.

You'd better put some serious hurt on that squad that just got dumped out of their LRC - at least enough to mitigate the extra attack they all just got from you shooting them!

Chapter Tactics!

Black Templars
- Holy Crusaders
- the Lost Librarius
- Righteous Zeal


I wonder what the BT Formation will be.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Chapter Tactics!

Black Templars
- Holy Crusaders
- the Lost Librarius
- Righteous Zeal


I wonder what the BT Formation will be.

Unless someone is specifically hiding something, there isn't one.

Happy to see the Rage and Counterattack effects, and if the dread rumor is true, Ironclad dreads might be a thing for BTs.

So BT just get Chapter Tactics for FREE? That's even better.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
So BT just get Chapter Tactics for FREE? That's even better.

Not sure what your point is as all SM Chapters that have Tactics get them for free...

As opposed to having to field very specific groups of models to get the Chapter-specific bonuses.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
As opposed to having to field very specific groups of models to get the Chapter-specific bonuses.

...the same way every other Chapter in the book works and has worked since 6E.

Much like my overreaction to news that bike troops wouldn't be a thing in the last codex, it appears that news of the demise of Black Templars was exaggerated.

And the Emperor's Champion just became good again.

I am glad that the Black Templars appear to have received a boost. The Sons of Dorn need to be strong, even if you guys play the nutbag, fanatical version of them

Terribly uninspirational from games workshop. If we start taking casualties, we essentially get mark of khorne for free? HERESY!

 Sir Arun wrote:
Terribly uninspirational from games workshop. If we start taking casualties, we essentially get mark of khorne for free? HERESY!

Theyre pretty fluffy rules and capture the feel of the original codex without the stupidness.
Im pretty psyched, the new chapter tactics are heads and tails better for templars then 6th ed

I agree, these rules are closer to what Righteous Zeal used to be. But at least now you can't get pulled off of objectives for being shot at. I might actually get some assault marines or bike squads for my Black Templar now.

But what I'm really excited about is the Emperors Champion being s6 ap2 at initiative. He will finally be able to step off the shelf and back on to the battlefield to uphold his oath.
It's one of my favorite models, so I'm super excited to use him again.

I really can't believe there's any complaining at all.

The BT have more Chapter Traits than any other Chapter, and their rules fit the established Fluff. They just updated to gain access to ALL of the newest C:SM toys and special rules.

And the BT have the most comprehensive Chapter-specific bitz of any Chapter.

For a Chapter that came out of nowhere, that's really impressive stuff.

Particularly when you compare with, oh, say, Sisters of Battle still getting nothing.

I'm glad to say that I was wrong. It does look like we are getting back some of our old flair back.

I'm very happy that I pre-ordered the book and may switch back to them from Crons for a bit to get a feel of the new book.

Also really happy that the Relics don't appear to be changing up at all - means I can still try out a bike Marshal w/burning blade!

Definitely going to pick up this new codex and start up that Templars army I've been promising myself, as Chaos is just overall getting beyond stale and boring - especially the now all but obsolete CSM's...
Here's hoping that GW will finally give Chaos some decent treatment, AND, that it'll be soon'ish & not another 12-18 months before dropping a barely polished turd that still refuses to give us any new squad weapon upgrades.

CSM are the oldest 6E Codex, right? So they should be updated shortly, say 2 months from now.

So the grand overall verdict is:

Black Templars got better in the 7th edition SM codex compared to the 6th edition SM codex.

Ok - we lost the "re-roll all misses in challenges and your weapons are rending in challenges" bit. But we gained counter-attack and rage when losing guys to enemy fire AND especially overwatch (ohh, BT players will beg to get overwatched before assault now).

Grimaldus also dropped a whooping 35 points in cost; his servitors are now +5 points extra per model but their bubble is 6+FNP instead of 6++ inv., so a bit more useful.

Helbrecht unfortunately didnt change one bit.

And dont forget the Emperors Champion. He's now got a huge boost. He still has rerolls to-hit in a challenge and on 6s has instant death. Also his attacks are s6 ap2 and at initiative 5.
So I think you will see a lot more Emperors Champion models out there.

Oh and dreads get chapter tactics now too. So they have crusader and adamantium will, and (i think) will get rage and hatred if they are in a unit of three and one dies. may have to check the wording on that to see if it works in this case.

I don't wanna be a party-pooper, but I'm looking at the leaked rules and I can't find the crusader squads anywhere in the Gladius Strike Force. Sooo, I'm guessing CAD/Unbound only for BT?

Yeah thats a bummber. CAD all the way.

You can CAD with a Normal Chaplain/Grimaldus for your Crusade Squads, LRCs, Cent Devs, Stormraves, Dreads, and use the non-Demi Battle Company Formations to bring in the rest of your stuff and still get all your BT Chap Tacs.

At least that's my plan.

So is a black tide viable now?

Either on foot or with mass vehicles, its the only way I'll ever consider playing marines

Really sucks that you can't get free vehicles with crusaders though

Do we have the actual wording for Crusader? If it's just a modification of the Tactical Squad entry, BT might be golden.

Crusader Squads are a completely separate entry from Tactical Squads.

 Dakkamite wrote:
So is a black tide viable now?

Either on foot or with mass vehicles, its the only way I'll ever consider playing marines

Really sucks that you can't get free vehicles with crusaders though

I agree it sucks that we don't get the swap, but we don't need no stinking Rhinos and Razors. We have the ALMIGHTY LAND RAIDER CRUSADER!

 Dakkamite wrote:
So is a black tide viable now?

It's as viable as it was before (so not really). The buffs increased the amount of damage the marines do once they're in combat, but nothing was done to address their penchant for simply getting wiped out before even reaching combat.

The closest thing to a delivery buff we got was that if BT fail a morale check from shooting, they run 2d6" toward the nearest enemy instead of falling back (I think, may have misread).

Also neophytes might have gotten a buff since scouts are all ws/bs 4.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
So is a black tide viable now?

It's as viable as it was before (so not really). The buffs increased the amount of damage the marines do once they're in combat, but nothing was done to address their penchant for simply getting wiped out before even reaching combat.

The closest thing to a delivery buff we got was that if BT fail a morale check from shooting, they run 2d6" toward the nearest enemy instead of falling back (I think, may have misread).

Also neophytes might have gotten a buff since scouts are all ws/bs 4.

I think that is one of the Warlord traits. Not sure if one of their special characters can guarantee it though.

Just checked and you're right about it being a warlord trait.

Bummer.

 DarkLink wrote:
Crusader Squads are a completely separate entry from Tactical Squads.

The key is the wording.

"Black Templars may take Crusader Squads"

vs

"Black Templars must take Crusader Squads instead of Tactical Squads"

In the latter formulation, a BT demi-Company or Company would have Crusaders for their core, and they would get all of the formation bonuses.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Crusader Squads are a completely separate entry from Tactical Squads.

The key is the wording.

"Black Templars may take Crusader Squads"

vs

"Black Templars must take Crusader Squads instead of Tactical Squads"

In the latter formulation, a BT demi-Company or Company would have Crusaders for their core, and they would get all of the formation bonuses.

From the looks of it, Crusader Squads just have the Chapter Tactics (Black Templars) SR, which means that they can only be taken by Black Templars. There is no reference in the Gladius Strike Force or the Battle Demi-Company to Crusader Squads. Only Tactical Squads.

Actually, it's quite fluffy that Templars don't get access to the Demi-Company formation.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Actually, it's quite fluffy that Templars don't get access to the Demi-Company formation.

This. If you want the benefits of following the codex, you actually need to, you know, follow the codex!

Looks like the BT made out pretty good this edition. Congrats!

Here is a hypothetical question for your BT players out there: Would you rather field 3x crusader squads in DT LRCs, or just embark them into an LR spearhead formation?

It would have been nice to get an alternative for Crusade Companies.

Honestly, the Demi-Company would work perfectly if it just swapped Tac and Crusade Squads as options.

So BT can't use the formations with crusader squads?

Wow, that is probably a mess up.

Hopefully they get on the FAQs right away....

After reading the new rules.. fair to say.. I'm excited to get the book and begin a new crusade against the enemies of mankind!

darkcloak wrote:
So BT can't use the formations with crusader squads?

Wow, that is probably a mess up.

Hopefully they get on the FAQs right away....

I wouldn't count on it. The Battle Demi-Company is for Codex-Adherent Companies, which the Black Templars are most certainly not when deploying Crusader Squads. Same goes for White Scars deploying Bike Squads in place of Tactical Squads.

 Nevelon wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Actually, it's quite fluffy that Templars don't get access to the Demi-Company formation.

This. If you want the benefits of following the codex, you actually need to, you know, follow the codex!

Looks like the BT made out pretty good this edition. Congrats!

Here is a hypothetical question for your BT players out there: Would you rather field 3x crusader squads in DT LRCs, or just embark them into an LR spearhead formation?

They can use the LR Spearhead Formation and it's a good one, as they ignore all modifiers short of being destroyed, which is a great fit for them as you can do a lot with it. Stick 2x Crusader Squads in 2x of them and then Stick the EC with your Warlord and a beefed up CC unit and your all set.

I think I'm gonna focus more on using a CAD to get my main crusade squads plus Helbrecht onto the field and attempt to field Strike Force Ultra and/or the Skyhammer formation.

Some excellent stuff for BTs to use in this edition. Excited to get my Temps back on the table.

Fellow Black Templar players, help me out.

I'm a bit in a dilemma as to whether I should buy the new White Dwarf 72 or not, as it comes with a unique Black Templar warlord traits table.

You can see the table from a leak here.

Basically:

1: warlord +1WS and +1A
2: if taking casualties from psychic or shooting phases, your warlord's unit moves 2D6" toward the nearest enemy unit if it loses its LD check instead of falling back to your table edge
3: warlord has hatred and preferred enemy psykers
4: warlord and his unit re-roll failed attacks
5: warlord is fearless and re-rolls failed attacks in a challenge
6: warlord and all units within 12" re-roll failed morale, fear and pinning tests. A free company standard, basically.

Now the thing is, 1 of these 6 traits is an absolute dud - the psyker one. Unless you're fighting a psyker, you wont use it ever and even when you are, it's only a nominal boost to your efficiency.

That leaves us with 5 traits. One of which (the one allowing the warlord to re-roll hits in challenges) is a copy-paste of part of the old codex' BT chapter trait. So for the odd guy who doesnt want to buy the 7th ed SM codex and use this warlord table with the 6th edition one, that's another useless trait.

This leaves us with only 4 of 6 actually new traits. 1 of which is very nostalgic and cool - reminding us of the old glory days of 4th edition when we had our own codex and our dudes were moving D6" toward the enemy when getting shot at.

Anyways, I think overall this table is meh compared to even the stock ones from the BRB page 125, especially the strategic traits that benefit the entire army.

So would you buy this WD just for that special snowflake feeling or is it not worth it?

huh? All of those traits are good and thematic - the odds of going up against enemy psyker is pretty high.

So to answer your question, Yes, you should get it. You play BT because you want a themed force.

Otherwise, you might as well paint them grey (like Jervis does) and hop Codex to Codex as the various SM flavors go up and down in power.

So I've decided to shelve my beloved Chaos armies as their rules, especially the Chaos Marines themselves are simply falling to the point of 'barely playable' in this new MSU vs. Deathstar era, and I've decided to forge ahead with Templars as I've got a truck tonne of bitz for them...
and because it's an army where I can shamelessly exclaim "God wills it!" whenever a big decision needs to be made! (because I've watched Kingdom of Heaven too many times obviously! )

Anyways, how does this sound for a themed 'crazy crusading space knights' styled force:

- Captain w/bike + Burning Blade + storm shield.
- Command Squad w/bikes, Apothecary, banner, 3x storm shield + power lances!

- 2x backfield Crusader Squads of 5 Initiates + 1 Neophyte. Probably 1 squad w/Grav Cannon + Plasma gun, other w/just a Missile launcher or Lascannon.

- 4 Initiates + 1 Neophyte + Meltagun. Sword Brother w/power maul + grav pistol. Razorback w/twin-linked Heavy flamer (for cleansing filthy heretics & unclean witches!)

- Obviously angry Chaplain w/Plasma pistol. (using the Grimeldus model)
- 9 Initiates + 4 Neophytes + power maul. Sword Brother w/Power fist. Land Raider Crusader because why the hell not!

- 3 Bikers w/2x grav guns + combi-grav.

- Assault Squad in Drop Pod w/2x Flamers + Eviscerator 'Sword Brother'.

- 2x Dreads in Pods. (thinking 1 Ironclad and maybe the other a Vendread? Lots of heavy flamers is a must!)

- Vanguard squad decked out with storm shields & jump packs, similar to how the 4th ed assault squads could kit out!


Not really too worried about pts, as I enjoy having some added options... but overall, would this be well themed? I'd like to avoid some of the old things Templars were once excluded from taking, such as no Whirlwinds or actual Devastator squads.

You mean you can exclaim, "THE EMPEROR WILLS IT!", right?

As to the list, well, I'm making the Emperor's Champion with a squad of Honor Guard a staple of all my lists now. Stick them in a LRC to get a unit of Sword Brethren.

I'm not a BT player, but I'm excited for the change to their CT and to their characters, just to see them on the battlefield. Go Rage Marines!

@Sir Arun, I bought the WD for the opportunity to use them in very fluffy games, but honestly, in normal games I'd just stick with Codex: SM Traits as the 7th edition ones are allVERY good IMO.

Gonna be getting in a game with the new Dex here on Sunday, will report back my findings.

Anyone tried attaching Priests from SoB to the Templars units? Scary buffs and utility for 25pts each