This seemed the appropriate place to suggest this, my apologies if it isn't.
We're starting to see dual use of unit names between 40k/30k (centurion) as well as unit's having different rules in different era (primaris lightning strike fighter), so maybe have a new forum specifically for the Horus Heresy?
Eldarain wrote: I would like to see one but only if there is enough activity to merit it.
I recall the Star Trek Attack Wing forum was given a trial period to see if there was enough interest and posts to merit it's own subforum.
A similar approach seems appropriate here.
I think the trial period will do much better for horus heresy as there will be general lore discussions about the horus heresy, also the horus heresy and 30k in general is pretty interesting as is.
I'm also all for a 30k forum. The stuff FW is doing with the setting is nothing short of outstanding and stellar work, head and shoulders above the direction 40k is going into IMHO.
Plus, it would keep the babies out who keep complaining that FW has turned into a Space Marine farm.
And here. We've had the suggestion before, but there wasn't much desire at the time. It was recommended that we tag threads with [30k]. Hope we can get one here as it means I can be lazy and not have to wander to other forums for my 30k fix!
I'm more and more in agreement that this needs to happen - I don't like to be active on tons of forums at once, but all my Heresy stuff has moved to Heresy30k because it's so hard to find Heresy stuff on Dakka...!
It doesn't need a separate background or modelling forum - I'd suggest just one '30K Army Lists & Tactics' subforum within the general 40k Section.
I'm for it. I'm about to start playing 30k with a few guys and I'm trying to find sample lists so I can get an idea of what models we should get. I find myself having to go to other forums... ... to find the information easier. I love Dakka and would rather get all my fixes here.
Not sure.... I have enough trouble keeping up with the threads without having somewhere else to look for good topics. But can see the need for it for different rules etc. I know a site called first expedition was started with this in mind i never took to it havnt looked at it in ages.
Oh and I agree there is a lot less negativity from 30k players. Topics on 30k tend to be blessed relief at times.
Might be an appropriate time to bring this up, considering the imminent release and the rumour that this is replacing The Hobbit/LoTR as the third system. Also reported that it will allegedly be aimed at older gamers...
Are you going to actually listen to what I'm saying before you have a knee-jerk reaction to what you see as someone disagreeing with your belief in the need of a Horus Heresy forum?
Yes, Forge World does make a Horus Heresy game. I never said otherwise, did I? No. But after three years apparently the admins don't feel that it has generated enough discussion to warrant its own forum. Horus Heresy: Betrayal at Calth is also a Horus Heresy game. If it becomes the third core game as rumored, it will generate way more discussion then the Forge World game ever could simply because it will be more widely available and more affordable. This game is what will provide the tipping point for a Horus Heresy forum, but you actually have to wait for the game to be released before that can happen.
We have no confirmation yet that Forge World's 30K rules and the upcoming Horus Heresy game are anything at all to do with each other. Given that the latest sneaky pictures show it on a game board, it seems likely that it is in fact something completely separate to Forge World's rules.
So no, this does nothing to advance the argument for a separate section for Horus Heresy discussion. At least not until there is actually something to talk about.
Ghaz wrote: Do they need a connection beyond being set during the Horus Heresy to be in a Horus Heresy forum?
If the discussion is about a specific game, then yes, having the forum shared by another, completely different, game that just happens to be in the same setting might be a touch confusing for people.
Our basic assumption is that there are already too many boards. It is a pretty steep climb to rebut that assumption. FW's HH product line is insufficient. And the Betrayal at Calth box set is insufficient. But that doesn't mean there will never be a 30k board. Let's see how things develop. Maybe Betrayal at Calth really is a "third game" product line comparable to LotR/Hobbit. If so, I can see a new board for that (probably one for army lists, batreps, etc., just like the current LotR board). But let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Have you guys considered closing some of the boards that are not in line with Dakka's mission of being the best tabletop gaming site on the internet? Specifically, the Video Games section, and the Off-Topic section? There are no shortage of other places that people can talk about video games, guns, and politics, and both subforums presumably consume a lot of bandwidth both literal and figurative (as in moderator time, which is a finite resource).
Certainly I think it would make way more sense to have a 30k subforum than it would to have the OT, Video Games, or Polls, for that matter. As much as I like arguing there, I think on the whole the OT adds negative value to Dakka. Obviously the mods and admin have more insight than I do.... just my 2 cents.
To clarify, this isn't really an issue of having a set number of boards in mind and maybe just trading one (for example, Video Games) in for another (30k). As for the OT, the thinking is that off-topic sentiment will out and it is best to have a place where it can be "contained" away from the gaming content. So it won't be going anywhere.
If it were up to me alone, the next board to go would be LotR. I would move it all into "Games Workshop Specialist & Unsupported Games" as soon as GW drops the axe, although obviously not before. That doesn't mean, however, that I'd instantly replace it with a 30k board.
Ouze wrote: I would agree there are too many boards.
Have you guys considered closing some of the boards that are not in line with Dakka's mission of being the best tabletop gaming site on the internet? Specifically, the Video Games section, and the Off-Topic section? There are no shortage of other places that people can talk about video games, guns, and politics, and both subforums presumably consume a lot of bandwidth both literal and figurative (as in moderator time, which is a finite resource).
Certainly I think it would make way more sense to have a 30k subforum than it would to have the OT, Video Games, or Polls, for that matter. As much as I like arguing there, I think on the whole the OT adds negative value to Dakka. Obviously the mods and admin have more insight than I do.... just my 2 cents.
I like how you're thinking!
All kidding aside, there is some discussion going on about closing down sections/folding some back into other areas too.
Ouze wrote: I would agree there are too many boards.
Have you guys considered closing some of the boards that are not in line with Dakka's mission of being the best tabletop gaming site on the internet? Specifically, the Video Games section, and the Off-Topic section? There are no shortage of other places that people can talk about video games, guns, and politics, and both subforums presumably consume a lot of bandwidth both literal and figurative (as in moderator time, which is a finite resource).
Certainly I think it would make way more sense to have a 30k subforum than it would to have the OT, Video Games, or Polls, for that matter. As much as I like arguing there, I think on the whole the OT adds negative value to Dakka. Obviously the mods and admin have more insight than I do.... just my 2 cents.
I like how you're thinking!
All kidding aside, there is some discussion going on about closing down sections/folding some back into other areas too.
Ouze wrote: I would agree there are too many boards.
Have you guys considered closing some of the boards that are not in line with Dakka's mission of being the best tabletop gaming site on the internet? Specifically, the Video Games section, and the Off-Topic section? There are no shortage of other places that people can talk about video games, guns, and politics, and both subforums presumably consume a lot of bandwidth both literal and figurative (as in moderator time, which is a finite resource).
Certainly I think it would make way more sense to have a 30k subforum than it would to have the OT, Video Games, or Polls, for that matter. As much as I like arguing there, I think on the whole the OT adds negative value to Dakka. Obviously the mods and admin have more insight than I do.... just my 2 cents.
I like how you're thinking!
All kidding aside, there is some discussion going on about closing down sections/folding some back into other areas too.
Does this include forum games?
Whops, caught a button on my phone.
I was meaning to say that FG could always be a sub forum of Fiction if a tidy up was necessary.
The games like collective RPGs and puzzles are user fiction, just not as linear.
Alpharius wrote: That forum is also included in the currently ongoing Forum Re-Org conversation.
No argument against admin decisions from here, but I named two. Just to clarify; Forum Games?
I'm just spending a lot of spare time writing fic, so I'm pretty invested in the conversational wasteland that is DF.
I'm not sure why a forum site can have 'too many forums'?
The purpose of dividing the conversation up into different forums is to make it easier to find conversations that interest the user, so that (for example) an Age of Sigmar player doesn't have to trawl through five pages of 40k rules questions in a generic 'rules' forum before he finds a thread he can help with.
The obvious way to help the user is to split the forums along the lines that most divide the users' interest already - game system.
There are already a lot of forums out there who handle Heresy. There is definitely an appetite on the web for discussion of Heresy-era games. If just doesn't happen on THIS forum, because folding it into 40k makes it difficult for 30k players to find and continue those conversations. If you folded Infinty into the general 40k forums and called them 'sci-fi', I imagine the amount of Infinity discussion on Dakka would decline too, as the players would find it more difficult to locate relevant conversations.
By folding 30k in with 40k, what we're actually doing is reducing the amount of 30k conversation happening, and making it more difficult for 30k fans to have those conversations. So they go elsewhere for that. Heresy30k is currently the only other toy soldier forum I regularly post on, and I only signed up to that (reluctantly) because I couldn't have those conversations here on Dakka, despite trying. I would MUCH prefer to be able to get my Heresy fix here!
Of course, it may be that Dakka feels it doesn't want to have the extra weight of conversation and manage/host that. That's absolutely fine. But please let's stop pretending that the current policy of hosting 40k and 30k together is adequately catering to the 30k fan base. All it's doing is driving the conversation elsewhere.
ArbitorIan wrote: I'm not sure why a forum site can have 'too many forums'?
The purpose of dividing the conversation up into different forums is to make it easier to find conversations that interest the user, so that (for example) an Age of Sigmar player doesn't have to trawl through five pages of 40k rules questions in a generic 'rules' forum before he finds a thread he can help with.
The obvious way to help the user is to split the forums along the lines that most divide the users' interest already - game system..
That's exactly it. The trick in finding exactly where those lines lie.
Breaking the forum down into different sections only works so long as those different sections still generate discussion. You reach a point if you break things down too far where you fragment the discussion too much... For example, we currently have a '40K General' section where people talk about anything 40K-related that doesn't fit the other 40K sections.
If we took that section and, say, split it off into '40K - Eldar Discussion', '40K Space Marine Discussion', '40K Ork Discussion', '40K Fishmen Discussion' and so on, the immediate effect would be that people could much more easily find discussion related to the armies that interest them. But the long-term effect is that armies that are less popular would flounder along with even less discussion happening in their section than would have happened in the combined section, because the casual browser who isn't overly invested in any particular army takes one look at the list of different subsections and wanders off to check out Facebook instead, and those who are interested in discussion on that army lose interest in the forum because there's no discussion happening in the specific section that interests them.
At the risk of seeming otiose, how much 30K game material is there and how different is it too regular 40K?
I am aware of the FFG Horus Heresy board game that was launched a few years ago. From what I can make out, the new Horus Heresy game from GW is a hex based skirmish board game with figures. This to me is not radically different in general concept to Space Hulk compared to 40K.
Is there a set of general 30K tabletop rules and how different is it to current 40K?
I am just trying to get a feel for the structure and direction of 30K separate from 40K.
Forge World do a set of HH rules that are based on 40k, but really a whole other ball (or minis) game. The principles are the same, but the design methods, the way lists are built, the whole approach is markedly different to 40k. On top of that you have all the background stuff from Black Library, the models from Forge World.... Pretty sure that if 30k were to get its own sub-forum, there would easily be as much discussion there as you find in the likes of the LotR or Malifaux sub-fora, ie. plenty to keep regular conversation going but little enough that it would quickly fade away in the traffic-heavy 40k forum.
I decided that i'm putting a [30k] in front of all my 30k topics now - theres definitely a great amount of interest in 30k but it's just not getting directed to this site because it's known for 40k despite it catering for a wide range of tabletop games.
SirDonlad wrote: I decided that i'm putting a [30k] in front of all my 30k topics now
Yes please do this! This will be extremely helpful to us in the event that a separate 30k forum gets underway (because we would need to manually move previous threads over). Anyone who is interested in an eventual 30k sub-forum really should be doing this.
insaniak wrote:Breaking the forum down into different sections only works so long as those different sections still generate discussion. You reach a point if you break things down too far where you fragment the discussion too much... For example, we currently have a '40K General' section where people talk about anything 40K-related that doesn't fit the other 40K sections.
Yup, I totally agree. You can certainly reach a point where you've divided up so much that there aren't enough people in each sub-forum to generate discussion.
I'd suggest that, with the 30k fanbase, we know that isn't true because of the amount of forum content it generates on the wider internet. We know there are a lot of people talking about 30k. We just know it isn't happening here. Because of the chicken/egg situation mentioned, the only way to find out if there would be enough discussion to maintain 30k forums HERE may be to test it. Maybe set up a 30k Rules/Lists forum for six months and see if discussion builds?
Kilkrazy wrote:At the risk of seeming otiose, how much 30K game material is there and how different is it too regular 40K?
Realistically, the vast majority of 30k material and discussion is going to come from the Forge World Horus Heresy variant of 40k. This is basically 40k, but with different armies, codexes, army building methods, campaign systems, missions and a big bolt-on of extra weapons, equipment and special rules. I'd imaging it's like adding four or five full Campaign supplements and a bunch of new Codexes to 40k - all designed to work together rather than with any of the existing 40k campaigns/codexes.
There is also the FFG Horus Heresy board game, and the old card game, though they may not generate that much discussion.
'Battle for Calth' is a whole separate thing, which may or may not generate a load of discussion. It's much more likely that the release of 'Battle for Calth' will generate a lot more discussion of the Forge World Horus Heresy game - since BfC is likely to be relatively simple as a game, and many people will use it to start a HH army.
SirDonlad wrote:I decided that i'm putting a [30k] in front of all my 30k topics now - theres definitely a great amount of interest in 30k but it's just not getting directed to this site because it's known for 40k despite it catering for a wide range of tabletop games.
This has been tried before, I think (I certainly tried it). The issue is that, because it's lumped in with the busiest forum, any 30k questions tend to get bumped off the front page pretty quickly, and then ignored. Of course, 30k players could search '30k' in each individual 40k forum if they want to talk about their game, but I think we'd all agree that it's much easier to just go to another, 30k-themed, forum!
I admit my interest in 40k is pretty much crap, at the moment. But having read some of the really important Horus Heresy books, loving the new plastic models...I'd love to jump feet first into a 30k/HH section. But I just can't be bothered trawling through a section that only snags my attention if something I feel curious about is showing on the main page.
Alpharius wrote: That forum is also included in the currently ongoing Forum Re-Org conversation.
If a forum that isn't really a "core" forum for DakkaDakka's Vision Statement takes a tremendous amount time from Moderators (OT) or your database/server/whatever space (Forum Games) or has very few active threads (Dakka Polls), then feel free to gak-can it.
I think the thing we'd really need is a "Horus Heresy Army Lists" and "Horus Heresy YMDK." Proposed rules isnt a must because FW knows how to write rules and General discussion is always vague enough to be for either
Stormwall wrote: I really hope 30k gets a forum, we'll have to spam the 40k area with 30k tags when Calth hits.
Don't spam it. If we post [30k] as needed, the forum will come naturally.
I don't think that's true.
If I'm going to make a post, I'd like some replies. I don't think I'll get that by posting a [30k] tag, watching it drop straight off the frontpage, and hoping the 30k players search for the tag to find threads to comment on. Arguably, that's exactly what people have been doing to date, and we see that while there is a lot of 30k discussion on the web, it doesn't happen here.
I'm more likely to get replies if I post in a 30k board, where 30k players will see it without having to search for it. Dakka doesn't have any of those. :/
Stormwall wrote: I really hope 30k gets a forum, we'll have to spam the 40k area with 30k tags when Calth hits.
Don't spam it. If we post [30k] as needed, the forum will come naturally.
I don't think that's true.
If I'm going to make a post, I'd like some replies. I don't think I'll get that by posting a [30k] tag, watching it drop straight off the frontpage, and hoping the 30k players search for the tag to find threads to comment on. Arguably, that's exactly what people have been doing to date, and we see that while there is a lot of 30k discussion on the web, it doesn't happen here.
I'm more likely to get replies if I post in a 30k board, where 30k players will see it without having to search for it. Dakka doesn't have any of those. :/
If there is not enough interest to keep a [30k] post from dropping straight off the front page, then there isn't really any justification for making a 30k section at all since nobody is talking about it.
If there are a lot of [30k] posts and people are posting in them and they are active and stay on the front page, then that is what will be used to justify a 30k section.
Dakka has never really been a forum of "if you build it, they will come". The approach for every recent sub-forum has been "if people talk about a subject enough, it will usually get a sub forum".
That is what happened when we all started posting and talking about (aka: not spamming) the [infinity] threads in the "other games" sub forum and that's what happened with the [FoW] sub-forum. Show Dakka that a 30k section is needed by tagging your posts and making it plain to see that the discussion is there.
That is what happened when we all started posting and talking about (aka: not spamming) the [infinity] threads in the "other games" sub forum and that's what happened with the [FoW] sub-forum. Show Dakka that a 30k section is needed by tagging your posts and making it plain to see that the discussion is there.
Absolutely, but every question about those two games - rules, lists, background - was being posted in the 'other games' forum. My point is that the reason [30k] posts disappear so quickly is that they currently have to be split across the regular 40k forums - the biggest and busiest forums on the site, with much, much more traffic than 'other games'. So the same approach won't work as well.
Maybe that's the solution - have Dakka clearly state on all 40k forums that 30k belongs in 'Other Games' and see how quickly that forum fills up! All rules, tactics, lists and background posts about 30k go in Other Games - if we get as many posts as Infinity did we get our own forum, right?
The oldest post on the front page for the following sections:
40K General: 42 hours
40K Background: 9 days
40K Tactics: 5 days
40K Battle Reports: 23 day
40K Proposed Rules: 16 days
40KYMDC: 6 days.
40K Army Lists: 3 days.
The busiest of all the 40K sections is still showing posts that have not received a response in 2 days. If a 30K post doesn't get a response for 2 days and falls off the front page then it doesn't need to be on the front page.
For now 30K will do just fine in the 40K section and won't be drowned out by week old traffic. Tag your threads with [30K] and when the front page is filled with [30K] threads you will see your new sub-forum. Looking at the dates in the 40K sections I would imagine that there will be a lot fever 30K sections, but they will come.
For now 30K will do just fine in the 40K section and won't be drowned out by week old traffic.
No it won't! And yes it will! Trolls don't play 30k!! (too much balance probably)
Also, the 'search' function is rubbish! Can't someone set it to bring up just the title of individual threads rather than every post thats ever been done in one listed chronologically?
When i tried using the search function all i got was all the posts i'd already read from the first couple of pages - it was no help at all! i ended up searching manually because of it!!
This will kill any intrest in dakka for someone (like me) who is just DONE with 40k.
d-usa wrote: Tag your threads with [30K] and when the front page is filled with [30K] threads you will see your new sub-forum.
Let's fold Flames of War into the 40k forums. When those forums (competing against the most popular mini game in the world) are 'full of FOW threads' then FOW will be allowed it's forums back. Sounds fair/realistic?
I'd love to post my [30k] stuff here, but if the mods can't be bothered to support it, I'm not sure it's worth the time. I can only assume other [30k] players feel the same.
ArbitorIan wrote: I can only assume other [30k] players feel the same.
As a dabbler/soon-to-be-proper HH player (just waiting until I can afford BaC) I am definitely in support of a 30k forum. I have kind of drifted away from 40k, partly due to gaming group disintegration and partly as I just couldn't be bothered to keep up with the rules (on the rare occasions I play, I play 6th, just because that's what I have). But an all-in-one HH forum for fluff, tactics, army planning, model sharing, all that kind of stuff, I'd definitely read and comment in more than I do 40k these days.
I don't think it needs the Infinity treatment with 3 separate fora, but something more along the lines of the LotR and Malifaux sub-fora, self-contained and getting enough traffic to keep things turning over (actually, I think 30k would get more than either of those, to be honest).
d-usa wrote: Tag your threads with [30K] and when the front page is filled with [30K] threads you will see your new sub-forum.
Let's fold Flames of War into the 40k forums. When those forums (competing against the most popular mini game in the world) are 'full of FOW threads' then FOW will be allowed it's forums back. Sounds fair/realistic?
I'd love to post my [30k] stuff here, but if the mods can't be bothered to support it, I'm not sure it's worth the time. I can only assume other [30k] players feel the same.
FoW has their own section because they did what you don't want to do.
And again, the most popular miniature game in the world has two days worth of threads on the front page of the most active section, and 2 weeks worth of threads in the least active section. Tag your posts [30K] and you will show that there is enough interest and you will get you out on forum.
Again, that's what [infinity] did in Other Games. That's what [FoW] did in Historical Games. 30K isn't asked to do anything different than any other game. If you really think that 30K doesn't have enough interest to compete against day old 40K threads then maybe post in the Games Workship Specialty Games section? If the recent news own out it might be best to actually roll 30K into that since it will become more active, or at least make a new "Other Games Workshop" grouping and then have sections for 30K, Hobbit/LotR, and Specialty Games. That would be 3 individual sub-forums in a logical place.
But you won't get a 30K forum just because you don't want to compete against day old and week old threads. Do the same thing every other game system did: tag your threads, post them were they fit the best for now, and if they come they will build it.
d-usa wrote: If you really think that 30K doesn't have enough interest to compete against day old 40K threads then maybe post in the Games Workship Specialty Games section? If the recent news own out it might be best to actually roll 30K into that since it will become more active, or at least make a new "Other Games Workshop" grouping and then have sections for 30K, Hobbit/LotR, and Specialty Games. That would be 3 individual sub-forums in a logical place.
The point isn't about who has the newest thread - it's about how many pages of stuff you have to wade through to be able to talk about your game system. And the maths aren't as simple as the age of the thread. To explain, let's assume two things:
1. Infinity currently has enough conversation to justify it's forums. 2. [30k] is as big a game system (worldwide) as Infinity.
The oldest thread (by last comment made) on 40k Army Lists is two days old. The oldest thread on Infinity Army Lists and Tactics is FIVE MONTHS old. If we took all the Infinity conversation and made it happen in the 40k forum, you'd get one Infinity thread per page - the content currently on the first page of the Infinity thread would be spread over more than 50 pages of 40k Army Lists (that's how far you have to go back to get to five months ago).
Obviously, this would be really bad to generate Infinity discussion. Why would you bother going to a forum when you know that you have to search through a page of 50 threads just to find ONE thats relevant to you? You wouldn't. So, very little discussion would happen, which means that far fewer threads would be generated in the first place, and we'd decide that Infinity doesn't generate enough discussion to warrant a forum.
Of course, Infinity DIDN'T have to do this. It existed in the Misc. Games forum, which currently has a turnaround time of just over a month. That means one-fifth of all the threads in that forum would have been Infinity - and that's only counting Infinity Army Lists. That's a pretty decent amount to maintain a community and generate conversation. Dakka decides that Infinity is dominating that board, and gives it it's own forums.
The only difference here is what forum you put the posts in.
I think posting [30k] Threads in the GW Specialist Games section would be MUCH closer to what FoW did, or what Infinity did, than splitting it's posts across a bunch of busy forums. We should totally do that.
But to correctly gauge interest in [30k], we'd need to make this clear on the forum headers to avoid confusion, so that the [30k] threads don't get spread all over the place and everyone is aware of where they can get the best response.
I think it would also fit best with the new Specialist Studio branding going on at GW which includes FW and 30K.
That decision by GW might end up being the best guidance and makes things easier. It can start out as a one-stop shop which makes it pretty easy to find all things 30K related as well as other things that will be released by the studio, and it doesn't seem like it would take much more than simply relabeling the current section without adding any new sub-forums right away.
Once everything is in one spot it then makes it easy to see if any specific games warrant further division, but even condensing it into Specialty Studio would be a good step forward IMO.
d-usa wrote: That decision by GW might end up being the best guidance and makes things easier. It can start out as a one-stop shop which makes it pretty easy to find all things 30K related as well as other things that will be released by the studio, and it doesn't seem like it would take much more than simply relabeling the current section without adding any new sub-forums right away.
I agree - I guess it's also a good time to relabel because, at some point in the future, those games won't be 'Unsupported' any more! Something like :
"Games Workshop Specialist Products
All specialist GW and FW games, from 30k/Horus Heresy to Blood Bowl, Dreadfleet to Necromunda"
I think it is about time for a 30k subforum, I'd even go so far as to say a fluff, army list and general 30k forum would be warranted, 30k is going to explode in a big way due to the new box set and it makes sense for dakka to be in there ASAP to generate A: revenue as more hits and B: good will among its posters.
ArbitorIan wrote: 2. [30k] is as big a game system (worldwide) as Infinity.
Is it? What data are you basing that on?
None - I'm not stating is as a fact. (Though I don't think it's a totally unfair assumption)
D-USA had stated that [30k] should go through the same process as Infinty. I was showing how, even if we assumde that [30k] had as much potential conversation out there as Infinity, the current policy of folding [30k] in with [40k] actively discouraged conversation about [30k] in a way that Infinity/FoW didn't have to deal with.
Stormwall wrote: I really hope 30k gets a forum, we'll have to spam the 40k area with 30k tags when Calth hits.
Don't spam it. If we post [30k] as needed, the forum will come naturally.
I don't think that's true.
If I'm going to make a post, I'd like some replies. I don't think I'll get that by posting a [30k] tag, watching it drop straight off the frontpage, and hoping the 30k players search for the tag to find threads to comment on. Arguably, that's exactly what people have been doing to date, and we see that while there is a lot of 30k discussion on the web, it doesn't happen here.
I'm more likely to get replies if I post in a 30k board, where 30k players will see it without having to search for it. Dakka doesn't have any of those. :/
Maybe?
Though this:
d-usa wrote:The oldest post on the front page for the following sections:
40K General: 42 hours
40K Background: 9 days
40K Tactics: 5 days
40K Battle Reports: 23 day
40K Proposed Rules: 16 days
40KYMDC: 6 days.
40K Army Lists: 3 days.
The busiest of all the 40K sections is still showing posts that have not received a response in 2 days. If a 30K post doesn't get a response for 2 days and falls off the front page then it doesn't need to be on the front page.
For now 30K will do just fine in the 40K section and won't be drowned out by week old traffic. Tag your threads with [30K] and when the front page is filled with [30K] threads you will see your new sub-forum. Looking at the dates in the 40K sections I would imagine that there will be a lot fever 30K sections, but they will come.
Suggests it might not be that bad, and that tagging posts with [30K] might be an effective way of showing how much interest there is in the game/system/setting/etc.
Alpharius wrote: This: Suggests it might not be that bad, and that tagging posts with [30K] might be an effective way of showing how much interest there is in the game/system/setting/etc.
Looks like we're stuck in a thread loop...?
THIS shows how the refresh rate of the forums compared to the amount of posts a 'smaller game' gets means that, even if the [40k] forums have a week of posts on their first page, that's still deliberately stifling discussion. If we want to see if [30k] has the same amount of discussion as other 'smaller games', that discussion needs to take place in ONE single forum, otherwise no community can grow.
As long as [30k] discussion is spread across the [40k] forums, there will be no significant amount of Heresy discussion on this site.
ArbitorIan wrote: The point isn't about who has the newest thread - it's about how many pages of stuff you have to wade through to be able to talk about your game system. And the maths aren't as simple as the age of the thread. To explain, let's assume two things:
1. Infinity currently has enough conversation to justify it's forums. 2. [30k] is as big a game system (worldwide) as Infinity.
The oldest thread (by last comment made) on 40k Army Lists is two days old. The oldest thread on Infinity Army Lists and Tactics is FIVE MONTHS old. If we took all the Infinity conversation and made it happen in the 40k forum, you'd get one Infinity thread per page - the content currently on the first page of the Infinity thread would be spread over more than 50 pages of 40k Army Lists (that's how far you have to go back to get to five months ago).
Obviously, this would be really bad to generate Infinity discussion. Why would you bother going to a forum when you know that you have to search through a page of 50 threads just to find ONE thats relevant to you? You wouldn't. So, very little discussion would happen, which means that far fewer threads would be generated in the first place, and we'd decide that Infinity doesn't generate enough discussion to warrant a forum.
Of course, Infinity DIDN'T have to do this. It existed in the Misc. Games forum, which currently has a turnaround time of just over a month. That means one-fifth of all the threads in that forum would have been Infinity - and that's only counting Infinity Army Lists. That's a pretty decent amount to maintain a community and generate conversation. Dakka decides that Infinity is dominating that board, and gives it it's own forums.
The only difference here is what forum you put the posts in.
I think posting [30k] Threads in the GW Specialist Games section would be MUCH closer to what FoW did, or what Infinity did, than splitting it's posts across a bunch of busy forums. We should totally do that.
But to correctly gauge interest in [30k], we'd need to make this clear on the forum headers to avoid confusion, so that the [30k] threads don't get spread all over the place and everyone is aware of where they can get the best response.
I think the argument being made is that, since at first the most we're expecting is a single 30k forum, it ought to be compared to other 'single' fora rather than the busiest, multi-fora area of the site.
As an example, the Mantic subforum (one of the most active ones) has a post dating back to the end of September on the front page, so 30 threads seeing updates in about 3 months. 30k would almost certainly get a much greater volume of posts than that, but if they're going to be split across the 6 40k fora it's never going to gain the momentum it would need for that to be recognised, and thus a new sub-forum created. Unless someone were to monitor the volume of 30k threads in a given time period across all 6 40k fora and compare that to the single forum turnover rate, but that's just complicating things and I wouldn't ask anyone to actually do that.
And I think there is an element of 'build it and they will come' to this as well. Whereas 40k players turn up and see a swathe of discussion boards for their game, a 30k player might similarly notice the lack of such boards for theirs, assume that 30k is not meant to be discussed in these fora, and move on to another site for their 30k discussion. Another way round this would be to just add 'or 30k' to the descriptions of the 40k boards, in the same way that the AoS boards have 'for AoS and Legacy WFB' in there.
Alpharius wrote:I thought d-usa's post showed that [30K] tagged posts won't disappear that quickly?
Yep, all these are being reposted from one page ago in the wrong order, my point above was in response do d-usa 's post about age of threads, I think both d-usa and I seem to be on the same page now - the the fair comparison would be to put all [30k] threads in one place.
Paradigm wrote:Whereas 40k players turn up and see a swathe of discussion boards for their game, a 30k player might similarly notice the lack of such boards for theirs, assume that 30k is not meant to be discussed in these fora, and move on to another site for their 30k discussion.
Yup, totally agree with your post.
Worse, people will log on to the '40k and 30k lists' forum see 49 40k lists and 1 30k list and decide that this is a terrible place to talk about 30k, so the discussion doesn't even get started.
d-usa wrote: If there is not enough interest to keep a [30k] post from dropping straight off the front page, then there isn't really any justification for making a 30k section at all since nobody is talking about it.
Bingo.
ArbitorIan wrote: Maybe that's the solution - have Dakka clearly state on all 40k forums that 30k belongs in 'Other Games'
Definitely not a good idea. Misc Games is chock full of KS discussion. Best policy is to tag your threads with [30k] so we can move them over to a 30k sub-forum if/when yakface and legoburner decide that's what they want to do.
I don't think a forum-cluster (separate YMDC, Batrep, Background, Lists, etc) is appropriate for this. There would probably only be a single 30k sub-forum focused on the gaming aspect. So background threads would still need to go in the 40k Background section. The new forum should probably be called "30k Gaming" or similar.
But IMO it is still too early to make this decision because we don't know yet what comes after Battle for Calth. I am not convinced a game overwhelmingly based on FW books and models is going to generate enough traffic to warrant its own forum.
I'm in favor of a (single) separate 30K forum . Personally hoping it can happen with some other forum maintenance when lego gets to that stuff (and if he wants to do this!). 40K is so popular on this site, I think the response even in this thread shows this subforum would have a lot of activity - more than many of the current subforums on the site!
d-usa wrote: If there is not enough interest to keep a [30k] post from dropping straight off the front page, then there isn't really any justification for making a 30k section at all since nobody is talking about it.
Bingo.
ArbitorIan wrote: Maybe that's the solution - have Dakka clearly state on all 40k forums that 30k belongs in 'Other Games'
Definitely not a good idea. Misc Games is chock full of KS discussion. Best policy is to tag your threads with [30k] so we can move them over to a 30k sub-forum if/when yakface and legoburner decide that's what they want to do.
Dakka - [30k] tags are great and will definitely work!
Me - Lengthy post explaining clearly why that won't actually, mathematically work.
Mods - Hey guys, remember this post from last page - [30k] tags are great and will definitely work!
Me - Remember this from last page - Lengthy post explaining clearly why that won't work.
Mods - [30k] tags are great and will definitely work!
feth it, let's just keep posting 30k threads on the external 30k forums. Dakka clearly isn't interested.
Well, that, or some of us just disagree with you that it won't work.
It's not a matter of not being interested. Just a matter of the best way to actually implement it. You have stated your opinion on that, and it will be considered. But while that's under consideration, what does it hurt to use the tag system to start building interest?
Ultimately, it's up to the community to create enough content to make a new section worthwhile. There's going to be more chance of that new section happening if people start engaging and showing that the content is there.
ArbitorIan, did you see my post? I think it's a good possibility and we've passed it up the chain (lego, the admin, is the one who could do this, and it's up to him and yak in the end). We'll see if anything comes of it . I personally hope it works out as I would love to use such a forum!
We've come to the end of your useful participation in this conversation.
To reiterate for those paying attention:
Using the [30k] tag is a good idea because it will allow us mods to more easily move 30k threads to a separate 30k sub-forum as/when the admins decide to make one.
Dakka used to be my one stop shop, but once I jumped on the Heresy train I noticed that it was a big pain to find 30k threads here. Now you can argue that that simply means there isn't enough interest to justify a 30k subforum but I'm guessing that it is more likely that those looking for 30k stuff have simply moved on to other sites with dedicated 30k boards. That's what I've done. And I must say it is very nice to be able to find all the threads that are of interest to me in one spot without having to do a lot of digging. This is of course just my opinion and experience.
I do find it interesting though that Maelstrom's Edge has it's own forum when it's not even out yet and has less interest than 30k (Since interest is apparently measured by number of topics). Interesting and seemingly more than a little self-serving and hypocritical when taken in context with this topic.
You will find that a couple of companies that pay, including the company of the owners of this board, have their own sections. That includes On The Lamb and Gangfight Games, and now Maelstrom's Edge.
I don't think it's hypocritical and I guess 30K players can pay for a dedicated sub-forum if they want to.
Until then they can follow the same process as every other game system.
I could be completely misunderstanding, but I am 90% sure that this is the case for those particular companies. They get the "brand" recognition of DakkDakka, a well developed forum infrastructure, moderation out of the deal and get to have an official forum for their company with less of the maintenance headache.
If I got that arrangement wrong I'm sure one of the mods will clarify it for us.
That's not the case IIRC. Those companies asked that Dakka host their official forum. I don't recall their being any "pay and get a sub-form" offer.
Regardless, it is totally unrelated to the question of whether there should be a 30k sub-forum.
On that topic (the actual topic of this thread), I guess this also requires clarification: Some mods think there should be a 30k sub-forum and others are skeptical. But it is ultimately up to the judgment of the owners.
If 30k threads are labeled [30k] then finding them should be no problem whatsoever. In fact, that is exactly the reason I ask that users label their threads: it makes them really easy to find.
Creating a 30k sub-forum is not about making these threads easier to find. The real issue is, encouraging people to talk about 30k gaming. A given 30k topic has a much higher chance of falling off the first page in a 40k sub-forum than it would in a 30k sub-forum.
In my experience, however, just creating a sub-forum does not create more discussion. After listening to Star Trek Attack Wing fans about why they should have a sub-forum, and in view of the then-imminent launch of D&D Attack Wing, I advocated that the owners approve a WizKids sub-forum. The result? The same handful of people who posted about Star Trek Attack Wing before continued posting about it ... and that's it.
Now there are some big differences between this and a 30k sub-forum: For one, Dakka Dakka is for better or worse primarily known as a hub for 40k discussion so having a 30k sub-forum is a lot more "on brand" than having one for WizKids products. Secondly, the Attack Wing games have pretty well fizzled out whereas we may be at the dawn of a new empahsis on 30k products from GW and obviously FW has been milking the Heresy for all its worth over the last few years.
So there are good arguments both for an against and the owners are aware of them.
Note that the forum is specifically for discussing army lists, tactics, and rules for 30k. Background discussion of the Horus Heresy should still go in 40k Background (since it's still the background of the same universe, after all )