With the new conclave there seems to be a lot of interesting stuff going around, but I cannot figure out some of the specifics of the rule. When you give all your powers to your designated librarian it says that the others cannot cast until the end of the phase. Now does that mean that they can still cast after the designated Librarian casts his powers if you have warp charges left? Also does this mean you can effectively cast powers twice by having the designate cast his power then the guy who originally generated the power cast it again?

It's the opposite on both cases.

Only one of them gets to use powers at all, and like normal, not the same one more than once.

I'm still unsure why it doesn't say next turn.

Just put it down to expert writers i suppose

It's pretty clear when you aren't bent on bending the wording.

Until the phase ends other psykers cannot cast spells.

 Aijec wrote:
It's pretty clear when you aren't bent on bending the wording.

Until the phase ends other psykers cannot cast spells.

So then ONLY the designated librarian can cast powers at all? That makes a lot more sense to me, and being able to cast the same power twice is really really stupid.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So then ONLY the designated librarian can cast powers at all? That makes a lot more sense to me, and being able to cast the same power twice is really really stupid.

He has acces to their powers - he knows Smite if others (one or two) knows it, but where does it states, that he can cast the same power twice?

There is no rule overriding BRB:
"No unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase"

 danyboy wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So then ONLY the designated librarian can cast powers at all? That makes a lot more sense to me, and being able to cast the same power twice is really really stupid.

He has acces to their powers - he knows Smite if others (one or two) knows it, but where does it states, that he can cast the same power twice?

There is no rule overriding BRB:
"No unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase"

I have some people I know stating that the designate librarian can cast, then if there is warp dice remaining the other librarians can cast their powers, meaning that if one librarian lent invisibility to the designate librarian he can then cast invisibility after the designate has cast it.

They are incorrect.

I have some people I know stating that the designate librarian can cast, then if there is warp dice remaining the other librarians can cast their powers, meaning that if one librarian lent invisibility to the designate librarian he can then cast invisibility after the designate has cast it.

They are only correct if the next Psyker to cast is in a different unit than the first, and is not a Conclave Librarian.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

I have some people I know stating that the designate librarian can cast, then if there is warp dice remaining the other librarians can cast their powers, meaning that if one librarian lent invisibility to the designate librarian he can then cast invisibility after the designate has cast it.

They are only correct if the next Psyker to cast is in a different unit than the first, and is not a Conclave Librarian.

SJ

In this case the only psykers in play was the librarius conclave (the DA one, but I assume the rules are relatively the same except the 3+ warp charge over a 2+ warp charge and needing zeke)

Some people play it so 2 libbys in the same unit can cast the same power, but if they are a conclave and one is in range to grants the power to another, he cannot cast any powers, as per the conclave rule

 jokerkd wrote:
Some people play it so 2 libbys in the same unit can cast the same power, but if they are a conclave and one is in range to grants the power to another, he cannot cast any powers, as per the conclave rule

You could say that one unit composed of two IC can shoot diferent targets... yet they are one unit, no split fire by default!
Don't know how Libbys can be treated differently
No matter how many libbys in one unit - no casting same power twice.

The argument goes like this....

The psychic phase rules give no permission to add ICs mastery levels together when in a unit. "Psyker" and "psyker unit" apply to A unit with any of the psychic rules. An IC is part of a unit for all rules purposes. When joining a librarian to a brotherhood of psykers unit, you have no permission to add his ML to the unit's when determining how many warp charges you generate.

Obviously no-one wants to play that way, so they assume, for the sake of the psychic phase, that each model with a ML should be treated as separate.

Then they see no reason why you should treat them separately for the purpose of generating, but not for the purpose of manifesting




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 danyboy wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
Some people play it so 2 libbys in the same unit can cast the same power, but if they are a conclave and one is in range to grants the power to another, he cannot cast any powers, as per the conclave rule

You could say that one unit composed of two IC can shoot diferent targets... yet they are one unit, no split fire by default!
Don't know how Libbys can be treated differently
No matter how many libbys in one unit - no casting same power twice.

Also, it is made clear that witchfires can be used against different units, even by the same psyker

Except that per the IC rules, the IC and the unit do not share special rules unless the effects of a special rule targets the unit while the IC is attached. In the case of a Psyker IC attached to a BoP unit, Psyker and BoP are treate separate.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Except that per the IC rules, the IC and the unit do not share special rules unless the effects of a special rule targets the unit while the IC is attached. In the case of a Psyker IC attached to a BoP unit, Psyker and BoP are treate separate.

SJ

Brotherhood of psykers is such a rule

If IC and BOP are treated seperate, they should both be able to cast the same powers

Ouch, I think you are correct jokerkd...

If we treat psyker units like any other units then if I band together 3 Libys ML2 into one unit, that unit generates only 2 Warp Charge...

Thanks for pointing that!

EDIT:

Actually it depends how you understand this sentence BRB:
"Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop."

Can you add Mastery Levels inside that unit or you have to pick only one highest of that unit, or what?

 danyboy wrote:

Actually it depends how you understand this sentence BRB:
"Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop."

Can you add Mastery Levels inside that unit or you have to pick only one highest of that unit, or what?

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any UNIT with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

so technically, you only have one unit. what is a unit of BOP's mastery level according to the rules? ML1 unless specified on the army list entry of that unit

Again, this is not how anyone (that i have heard of) plays it. but people seem to think that you should consider them separate for one thing (generating), but not for the other (manifesting)

i find that way inconsistent, but i'm forced to play what the group/TO decides.

I actually got threatened by a certain store manager for trying to explain this

I just found, that in Poland we have clarification that for purposes of generating Warp Charge and manifesting powers we treat each Psyker/BOP unit as separate unit.

Now I know how I'll play.
Still, rules are "misty"

 danyboy wrote:
I just found, that in Poland we have clarification that for purposes of generating Warp Charge and manifesting powers we treat each Psyker/BOP unit as separate unit.

Now I know how I'll play.
Still, rules are "misty"

My main worry is still "can the other librarians in the conclave cast after the designate" and "can they cast the powers they gave to the designate" ?

Thats the kind of stuff that I think will result in mega cheese builds

I think Empyric Channelling is pretty clear:
"At the start of the Psychic phase, you can nominate one Librarian (...)
nominated Librarian has access to any psychic powers known by other Librarians from this Formation within 12" (...)
other Librarians from this Formation within 12" of the nominated Librarian cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase."

For me it is clear, that those within 12" from nominated can't manifest psychic powers (it's not "that psychic powers", just "psychic powers", so "any psychic powers").

And to be clear - if you nominate 1 Libby he has access to all powers in 12" bubble. If you nominated him, and he use any abiliby granted by Empiric Channeling (either one spell, or bonus to warp harness) all Librarians in bubble cannot manifest psychic powers.

However those Librarians from Formation that are more that 12" still can cast their powers as normal.

 danyboy wrote:
I think Empyric Channelling is pretty clear:
"At the start of the Psychic phase, you can nominate one Librarian (...)
nominated Librarian has access to any psychic powers known by other Librarians from this Formation within 12" (...)
other Librarians from this Formation within 12" of the nominated Librarian cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase."

For me it is clear, that those within 12" from nominated can't manifest psychic powers (it's not "that psychic powers", just "psychic powers", so "any psychic powers").

And to be clear - if you nominate 1 Libby he has access to all powers in 12" bubble. If you nominated him, and he use any abiliby granted by Empiric Channeling (either one spell, or bonus to warp harness) all Librarians in bubble cannot manifest psychic powers.

However those Librarians from Formation that are more that 12" still can cast their powers as normal.

Ok, I think I got it, thats what I was always inclined to believe but I needed a chain of logic to help convince my compatriots thats how it works. Also some intensive research has led me to find that the "End of Phase' is only declared when all warp charge dice are used, so even if they wants to argue the case that they can cast then that means they have no charges to do so with.

They are not BoP which has no relevance in this discussion.

 jokerkd wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Except that per the IC rules, the IC and the unit do not share special rules unless the effects of a special rule targets the unit while the IC is attached. In the case of a Psyker IC attached to a BoP unit, Psyker and BoP are treate separate.

SJ

Brotherhood of psykers is such a rule

If IC and BOP are treated seperate, they should both be able to cast the same powers

So, what I just read from you was: "I don't bother to read".

Per RAW, when Warp Charges are calculated, each IC with Psyker, BoP unit, and each Psychic Pilot vehicle are counted. When casting, the unit casts powers one at a time, no duplicates, unit you either run out of powers to cast, run out of Warp Charges, or move on to the next unit. In the case of casting, an attached IC counts as a member of the unit.

But you probably won't bother to read that, or the rules in the BRB.

San

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

So, what I just read from you was: "I don't bother to read".

Ad Hominem arguments are the best! Am i right? They make you look smart and not like a complete douche!

Per RAW, when Warp Charges are calculated, each IC UNIT with Psyker, BoP unit, and each Psychic Pilot vehicle are counted. When casting, the unit casts powers one at a time, no duplicates, unit you either run out of powers to cast, run out of Warp Charges, or move on to the next unit. In the case of casting, an attached IC counts as a member of the unit.

But you probably won't bother to read that, or the rules in the BRB.

San

fixed to fit RAW.

Can you please provide the rule that allows the IC joined to a unit, to be considered a separate unit when determining the UNIT'S mastery level?

The IC is a separate unit, explicitly stated when calculating Kill Points and other purposes such as Warlord when applicable, then that separate unit comes with it's own ML

 IHateNids wrote:
The IC is a separate unit, explicitly stated when calculating Kill Points and other purposes such as Warlord when applicable, then that separate unit comes with it's own ML

So, because it is counted as separate for one purpose, they should be counted as separate for all purposes?

Are you then agreeing that IC psykers in the same unit can each cast the same power if they know it?

yes, they can

The old GK Hammerhand stack being the primary example

 IHateNids wrote:
yes, they can

The old GK Hammerhand stack being the primary example

Except that powers rarely stack these days, yes they can. The same Psyker cannot cast the same power more than once, but each Psyker in a unit is its own "Psyker unit" for generating Warp Charges and for casting powers. Yet, even so, the rules for what defines a "unit" still exist, which means that when a Psyker casts a power effecting it's entire unit, the effect covers the IC and the unit. Examples such as Force and Hammerhand make this clear.

People still have hang-ups on GW using the same word to mean different things, such as Heavy Flamers and Assault Cannons. Now we have Units of Psyker Units to deal with. Someone needs to get GW a thesaurus ... and a competent technical editor.

SJ

Right, now I see the issue...

I stand by my reasoning though. In the above example, Hammerhand and Force cast by either would effect all, as they both state 'Psyker and his unit', but for powers such as Iron Arm, only the libby would get that (assuming he cast it)

A brotherhood of psykers has to always be in you it coherencey. The librarius conclave only needs to be within 12"

 IHateNids wrote:
The IC is a separate unit, explicitly stated when calculating Kill Points and other purposes such as Warlord when applicable, then that separate unit comes with it's own ML

I should point out that when an IC is killed, he is removed from coherency with the unit. At some future point after that, he reverts to being a solo unit, anyway. If the unit is not killed quickly, it would be at the end of the next possible movement phase after combat ends, if the unit is killed quickly, it happens at the end of that Phase.

 danyboy wrote:
I think Empyric Channelling is pretty clear:
"At the start of the Psychic phase, you can nominate one Librarian (...)
nominated Librarian has access to any psychic powers known by other Librarians from this Formation within 12" (...)
other Librarians from this Formation within 12" of the nominated Librarian cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase."

For me it is clear, that those within 12" from nominated can't manifest psychic powers (it's not "that psychic powers", just "psychic powers", so "any psychic powers").

And to be clear - if you nominate 1 Libby he has access to all powers in 12" bubble. If you nominated him, and he use any abiliby granted by Empiric Channeling (either one spell, or bonus to warp harness) all Librarians in bubble cannot manifest psychic powers.

However those Librarians from Formation that are more that 12" still can cast their powers as normal.

I don't understand why anyone is thinking that the other Librarians would be unable to cast powers if the special nominated one uses the special rules. It says "cannot manifest until the END of the phase". If warp charges remain then they can cast after the nominee.

Also I see no reason to not add up the warp charges of all the Librarians in a single unit. This was never an issue when 4 Daemon Heralds were floating around with 9 Screamers.

I dont anyone that doesn't allow psykers to all add their mastery level to the pool. The rules don't allow it, so we house rule it

Malathrim wrote:

I don't understand why anyone is thinking that the other Librarians would be unable to cast powers if the special nominated one uses the special rules. It says "cannot manifest until the END of the phase". If warp charges remain then they can cast after the nominee.

When the psychic phase is over, it's the shooting phase.

Dont have my brb handy, but when do witchfire powers get cast? If its during the shooting phase, then all the other libbys can cast witchfires as its a different phase, as the rule at the end of the phase

overlordweasel wrote:
Dont have my brb handy, but when do witchfire powers get cast? If its during the shooting phase, then all the other libbys can cast witchfires as its a different phase, as the rule at the end of the phase

They cast them in the Psychic Phase, else they'd have no warp charge to cast the Witchfires with anyway.

 Aijec wrote:
It's pretty clear when you aren't bent on bending the wording.

Until the phase ends other psykers cannot cast spells.

No it's not clear. There is literally a section in the BRB that says when a rule says "until the end of the phase" that all other actions must be completed in that phase first and then those actions can be completed. So you're completely wrong. That exact phrasing is clarified in the big rule book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Malathrim wrote:

I don't understand why anyone is thinking that the other Librarians would be unable to cast powers if the special nominated one uses the special rules. It says "cannot manifest until the END of the phase". If warp charges remain then they can cast after the nominee.

When the psychic phase is over, it's the shooting phase.

I addressed you confusion in the post above. Both my BRB's are at the local store but it has it's own section in the write up.

So in my mind there is absolutely no question they can, . I rarely run psykers by the way and have never run this. It's what I'd be comfortable with for a ruling for an opponent though

jakejackjake wrote:
No it's not clear. There is literally a section in the BRB that says when a rule says "until the end of the phase" that all other actions must be completed in that phase first and then those actions can be completed. So you're completely wrong. That exact phrasing is clarified in the big rule book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

When the psychic phase is over, it's the shooting phase.

I addressed you confusion in the post above. Both my BRB's are at the local store but it has it's own section in the write up.

So in my mind there is absolutely no question they can, . I rarely run psykers by the way and have never run this. It's what I'd be comfortable with for a ruling for an opponent though

Let me quote BRB for you (Game turns and player turns):

"The Start and End of a Phase
(...)Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a particular phase is always resolved after all other actions have been performed during that phase, before the next phase (if any) starts."

I don't see any "until the end of the phase". Could you quote any other part of the rulebook that says something similar?

Now let's see how Psyhic Phase looks like:
> Start of Phase
--> 1. Generate Warp Charge
--> 2 Manifesting Psychic Powers:
---------> a. Select Psyker and Psychic Power
---------> b. Declare Target
---------> c. Take Psychic Test.
---------> d. Deny the Witch.
---------> e. Resolve Psychic Power
---------> //f. Go back to a
> End of Phase

It is pretty clear:
Phase starts with generating Warp Charge.
Phase ends with manifestig my last power, no matter how many WC I may want to waste or I may be forced to waste.

So when some rule says:
"Librarian cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase"

For me it is pretty clear that when I say my other Librarians cast my last power (I'm at e. in my diagram above) the psychic phase ends.

Please share with me your interpretation, at which point those "banned" Librarians can manifest their powers, because I don't get it?

Powers can be manifested only during the psychic phase.
The ban lasts until the end of the psychic phase.
Your other librarians can cast after the end of the psychic phase has happened. Since this means that you are no longer in the psychic phase then they can't manifest powers.

The only trick available for that is the following:

1) Cast a power, for example invisibility, with the main librarian.
2) With the main librarian cast Levitation and move a secondary librarian out of the 12" range.
3) Cast invisibility with the secondary librarian that is now outside the banned area (without bonuses obviously)

jakejackjake wrote:

 Aijec wrote:
It's pretty clear when you aren't bent on bending the wording.

Until the phase ends other psykers cannot cast spells.

No it's not clear. There is literally a section in the BRB that says when a rule says "until the end of the phase" that all other actions must be completed in that phase first and then those actions can be completed. So you're completely wrong. That exact phrasing is clarified in the big rule book.

But it is. Your explanation even reinforces it! You complete "all other actions", then you resolve anything that had the phrase "unit the end of the phase" and since you've completed all other actions, you then move on to the next phase.

step by step:
There are actions that are allowed in the psychic phase - manifesting powers. And there are ongoing effects that last "until the end of the phase", in this case banning units from manifesting powers. Now you reach said "End of phase" by declaring "i can't or refuse to manifest any other powers" - which removes the permission to manifest any powers from any unit right then and there. You then resolve ongoing effects - so your psykers are now no longer banned from manifesting powers. But they still do not have PERMISSION to manifest them since you're no longer in the psychic phase - but they will be able to do so the next time they gain permission to manifest. Unless you again ban them from using it by a special rule.

This whole discussion is really weird to me, no game I've ever played allowed you to take a regular action of a phase during the "end of phase" step.You declare "end of this phase", deal with the ongoing effects and go to the next phase - only explicit permission allows you to do anything else.
I honestly do not understand how you folks think that once you reach the end of something you're allowed to continue as before. The entire notion is just weird.

Spoletta wrote:

The only trick available for that is the following:

1) Cast a power, for example invisibility, with the main librarian.
2) With the main librarian cast Levitation and move a secondary librarian out of the 12" range.
3) Cast invisibility with the secondary librarian that is now outside the banned area (without bonuses obviously)

That is really interesting situation and this interpretation is possible. I was always thinking that the nomination at the start of Psychic Phase is the trigger point, but I see that your example is possible and it doesn't contradict the rules.

 danyboy wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
No it's not clear. There is literally a section in the BRB that says when a rule says "until the end of the phase" that all other actions must be completed in that phase first and then those actions can be completed. So you're completely wrong. That exact phrasing is clarified in the big rule book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

When the psychic phase is over, it's the shooting phase.

I addressed you confusion in the post above. Both my BRB's are at the local store but it has it's own section in the write up.

So in my mind there is absolutely no question they can, . I rarely run psykers by the way and have never run this. It's what I'd be comfortable with for a ruling for an opponent though

Let me quote BRB for you (Game turns and player turns):

"The Start and End of a Phase
(...)Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a particular phase is always resolved after all other actions have been performed during that phase, before the next phase (if any) starts."

I don't see any "until the end of the phase". Could you quote any other part of the rulebook that says something similar?

Now let's see how Psyhic Phase looks like:
> Start of Phase
--> 1. Generate Warp Charge
--> 2 Manifesting Psychic Powers:
---------> a. Select Psyker and Psychic Power
---------> b. Declare Target
---------> c. Take Psychic Test.
---------> d. Deny the Witch.
---------> e. Resolve Psychic Power
---------> //f. Go back to a
> End of Phase

It is pretty clear:
Phase starts with generating Warp Charge.
Phase ends with manifestig my last power, no matter how many WC I may want to waste or I may be forced to waste.

So when some rule says:
"Librarian cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase"

For me it is pretty clear that when I say my other Librarians cast my last power (I'm at e. in my diagram above) the psychic phase ends.

Please share with me your interpretation, at which point those "banned" Librarians can manifest their powers, because I don't get it?

"The end of the phase" is a point that still exists within the Psychic Phase, not some point in time after the Psychic Phase. If multiple events occur at either the beginning of the end of a phase, the player whose turn it is gets to pick what happens first at that point in the phase. So if warp charges remain in the pool, the non nominated Librarian(s) can cast what powers they know per normal casting rules.

And I see no limiting rules within the Conclave saying they can't cast a power that the nominated Librarian has cast using the shared knowledge. So nominated Librarian could cast a spell while joined to one unit that he knows from being within 12" of some other Libby joined to a different unit, and that latter Libby could then cast the same power again si de he still knows his powers and is in a different unit. This has the potential to make two units gain invisibility or perfect timing, for example, via one psykers' powers.

I will reiterate my view that if multiple psykers are joined to one unit they still add up all their mastery levels for warp charge generation. I've never seen anyone, including any TOs say otherwise, and many Eldar players would have a fit!

Let's have fun with our new awesome formation!

Malathrim wrote:

"The end of the phase" is a point that still exists within the Psychic Phase, not some point in time after the Psychic Phase. If multiple events occur at either the beginning of the end of a phase, the player whose turn it is gets to pick what happens first at that point in the phase. So if warp charges remain in the pool, the non nominated Librarian(s) can cast what powers they know per normal casting rules.

And I see no limiting rules within the Conclave saying they can't cast a power that the nominated Librarian has cast using the shared knowledge. So nominated Librarian could cast a spell while joined to one unit that he knows from being within 12" of some other Libby joined to a different unit, and that latter Libby could then cast the same power again si de he still knows his powers and is in a different unit. This has the potential to make two units gain invisibility or perfect timing, for example, via one psykers' powers.

I will reiterate my view that if multiple psykers are joined to one unit they still add up all their mastery levels for warp charge generation. I've never seen anyone, including any TOs say otherwise, and many Eldar players would have a fit!

Let's have fun with our new awesome formation!

The end of the phase is the end of the fething phase, not part of the phase. That's why you call it the end. Until you as the acting player decide that you have nothing else you want or can do, the phase does not end. Once you decide that it ends, it ends. You simply resolve any lingering effects in any order you choose and then the phase ends. The point of having "until end of phase" or "until end of turn" words is explicitly to have that effect affect anything you might want to do in that phase or turn.

End of phase / end of turn is a pretty simple thing, you are simply not allowed to continue with phase activities once you reach the end of the phase. If you choose to interpret it otherwise, it's a house rule - but certainly not RAW and in this case also clearly not RAI. And HIWPI would be "no fething way you get to manifest with any of the psykers that just boosted this one guy".

Malathrim wrote:
"The end of the phase" is a point that still exists within the Psychic Phase, not some point in time after the Psychic Phase. If multiple events occur at either the beginning of the end of a phase, the player whose turn it is gets to pick what happens first at that point in the phase. So if warp charges remain in the pool, the non nominated Librarian(s) can cast what powers they know per normal casting rules.

And I see no limiting rules within the Conclave saying they can't cast a power that the nominated Librarian has cast using the shared knowledge. So nominated Librarian could cast a spell while joined to one unit that he knows from being within 12" of some other Libby joined to a different unit, and that latter Libby could then cast the same power again si de he still knows his powers and is in a different unit. This has the potential to make two units gain invisibility or perfect timing, for example, via one psykers' powers.

I will reiterate my view that if multiple psykers are joined to one unit they still add up all their mastery levels for warp charge generation. I've never seen anyone, including any TOs say otherwise, and many Eldar players would have a fit!

Let's have fun with our new awesome formation!

Well I don't get it. The thing is that rule specifically say that librarians within 12" from nominated cannot manifest their powers until end of phase.

If you have WC and you will not call "end of phase" the phase still exists and you are not able to manifest their powers. Once you call it "end of phase" that is what happens! Phase is ended no more manifesting powers...

 danyboy wrote:

Malathrim wrote:
"The end of the phase" is a point that still exists within the Psychic Phase, not some point in time after the Psychic Phase. If multiple events occur at either the beginning of the end of a phase, the player whose turn it is gets to pick what happens first at that point in the phase. So if warp charges remain in the pool, the non nominated Librarian(s) can cast what powers they know per normal casting rules.

And I see no limiting rules within the Conclave saying they can't cast a power that the nominated Librarian has cast using the shared knowledge. So nominated Librarian could cast a spell while joined to one unit that he knows from being within 12" of some other Libby joined to a different unit, and that latter Libby could then cast the same power again si de he still knows his powers and is in a different unit. This has the potential to make two units gain invisibility or perfect timing, for example, via one psykers' powers.

I will reiterate my view that if multiple psykers are joined to one unit they still add up all their mastery levels for warp charge generation. I've never seen anyone, including any TOs say otherwise, and many Eldar players would have a fit!

Let's have fun with our new awesome formation!

Well I don't get it. The thing is that rule specifically say that librarians within 12" from nominated cannot manifest their powers until end of phase.

If you have WC and you will not call "end of phase" the phase still exists and you are not able to manifest their powers. Once you call it "end of phase" that is what happens! Phase is ended no more manifesting powers...

I think this is why they got rid of instants and interrupts in M:tG. I can see what is being said in that light. It's elegant, and technical. I don't know that I buy it, but it does have some merit.

The problem is that the second you treat all models in the psykers unit as the same for the psychic phase the entire rules system falls apart.

Only one independent psyker in the unit would generate warp charges.

Any psyker in the unit can take the perils of the warp hit, not necessarily the one who casts the spell(perils of the warp affects the UNIT, it does not say anything about it being the caster).

Iron Arm applies to every psyker in the unit, so on and so forth.

The only consistent rules interpretation that works treats each psyker as a independent unit for the purposes of casting. Some tournaments have ruled otherwise for certain aspects and that is fine. But that is them making personal house rules.

Okay, regarding the End of the Phase, all you doubters need to look and read the section on Page 17 of the BRB, or at least it's that page in my tiny rulebook from a starter box:

"THE START AND END OF A PHASE"
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens at the start of a particular phase, such as 'at the start of your Movement phase' or 'at the start of your Shooting phase'. These are always resolved before anything else during that phase. Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a particular phase is always resolved after all other actions have been performed during that phase, before the next phase (if any) starts.

The end of a rope is still part of the rope, and the above rule spells that out, as the end stuff still happens BEFORE the next phase, and there's no intermission phase between phases. So the end of a phase is still a part of the phase.+++>END TRANSMISSION FOR THAT ARGUMENT

Looks like Leth is agreeing that all the Libbies joined into a single unit would still generate warp charges for each of their Mastery Levels which is also how I view it (and I have not yet seen any other method of interpretation in actual games played.)

Yep, that's correct on both counts.

Malathrim wrote:
Okay, regarding the End of the Phase, all you doubters need to look and read the section on Page 17 of the BRB, or at least it's that page in my tiny rulebook from a starter box:

"THE START AND END OF A PHASE"
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens at the start of a particular phase, such as 'at the start of your Movement phase' or 'at the start of your Shooting phase'. These are always resolved before anything else during that phase. Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a particular phase is always resolved after all other actions have been performed during that phase, before the next phase (if any) starts.

The end of a rope is still part of the rope, and the above rule spells that out, as the end stuff still happens BEFORE the next phase, and there's no intermission phase between phases. So the end of a phase is still a part of the phase.+++>END TRANSMISSION FOR THAT ARGUMENT

The rule literally says that "any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a particar phase" - this means ANY rule that says "at the end of the phase" - is only resolved after(!) "all other actions have been performed during that phase". This means that you cannot take any actions in that phase once you're resolving the "until end of phase" actions and events. Whether or not the step "end of phase" is part of the phase or not is just a technicality that changes nothing since you had to perform all other actions prior to resolving the "end of phase" actions and events.
You're simply not allowed to do anything else. The word "always" makes sure of that.
And please do not ask "Where does it say I can't?!" , but provide a rule that overrides the "any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a parrticular phase is always resolved after all other actions" part. If you can't, that's your answer.

The end of the phase is the last action to occur - so you can manifest one spell.

The end of the phase is not an action, is an event and it happens after all the actions have been completed.

No matter how you read the rules you can't cast at "End of phase" like we were playing MTG.
The end of phase happens when the player declares he has nothing more to do in that phase.
If you do that declaration then you can't manifest powers any more.

regardless of your metaphysical or Theosophical definition of the word "end", the rule says that any action or event that occurs at the end of a phase is resolved:

1) after all OTHER actions during that phase (not after ALL actions during that phase, which is what you End Times people seem to suggest creates a conflict)

And

2) BEFORE the next phase starts.

So if the end of the phase events occur before the next phase begins then they most certainly occur in the phase of which the End is a part. If the End of a Phase does not exist, then things lime the Black Mace's curse second component would not take place either.

Malathrim wrote:
regardless of your metaphysical or Theosophical definition of the word "end", the rule says that any action or event that occurs at the end of a phase is resolved:

1) after all OTHER actions during that phase (not after ALL actions during that phase, which is what you End Times people seem to suggest creates a conflict)

And

2) BEFORE the next phase starts.

So if the end of the phase events occur before the next phase begins then they most certainly occur in the phase of which the End is a part. If the End of a Phase does not exist, then things lime the Black Mace's curse second component would not take place either.

As I've already said: Whether or not the step "end of phase" is part of the phase or not is just a technicality that changes nothing since you had to perform all other actions prior to resolving the "end of phase" actions and events. And "all other actions" refers to any other action besides resolving the "until end of phase" events and actions.

Therefore you cannot take any other action at that stage, for example "manifesting a power". It really doesn't matter much whether you treat the "end of phase" step as part of the phase or not - either way you can't perfom any actions, you can only resolve "until end of phase actions and events". Note the difference between "perform" (as in "you choose to do something") and "resolve" (something happens due to previously evoked rules, you just determine what happened) here, too.

Manifesting Psychic Powers can only occur during Psychic Phase.
"Banned" Librarians are not allowed to manifest Psychic Powers.
If you have nothing to do you say End of Psychic Phase. Phase Ended.

Now happens things that you resolve AT THE End of that phase. Not until. AT THE END.
Rulebook clearly states AT THE END.
This are things like Morale checks on units with 25% casualites (after whichfire or smth).

Going your way of thinking I would shoot enemy unit, kill 25% models.
Then I would say end of shooting phase.
Then they would do morale checks (hopefully fail - fallback 2d6).
Then I would say oh I've got one more unit that did not shoot yet. So I would make some more damage to them.
Then they would make morale checks (hopefully fall back another 2d6)
And then I would remebered that my another unit did not shoot...
It is not how it works...

Spoletta wrote:
The end of the phase is not an action, is an event and it happens after all the actions have been completed.

No matter how you read the rules you can't cast at "End of phase" like we were playing MTG.
The end of phase happens when the player declares he has nothing more to do in that phase.
If you do that declaration then you can't manifest powers any more.

Can you point me to where the written rules reside to support this fallious claim ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The end of the phase is not an action, is an event and it happens after all the actions have been completed.

No matter how you read the rules you can't cast at "End of phase" like we were playing MTG.
The end of phase happens when the player declares he has nothing more to do in that phase.
If you do that declaration then you can't manifest powers any more.

Can you point me to where the written rules reside to support this fallious claim ?

Rulebook, page 24, last paragraph of Generate Warp Charge:

If, after resolving a psychic action - such as manifesting a psychic power - the player whose turn it is has 0 Warp Charge points remaining, the Psychic phase ends. The Psychic phase also ends if you either cannot, or choose not to, resolve any more psychic actions. When the Psychic phase ends, all remaining Warp Charge points belonging to both players (if any) are lost and the Shooting phase begins.

I've altered the emphasis, to reflect your question.

The other librarians cannot cast until the end of the phase. How do we know that we've reached the end of the phase to trigger the removal of the restriction?
A) We've run out of Warp Charge, or
B) We've declared we aren't going to do any other psychic actions.

So it ends when another Libby uses the last of the warp charge.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it ends when another Libby uses the last of the warp charge.

A phase doesn't have multiple endings, else you'd have to take multiple Morale tests for a unit that had suffered 25% casualties - in order for the other Librarian to cast, you have to have reached the end of the phase to trigger the lifting of the restriction (which also triggers the Morale test).

So in order to cast with that Librarian, you have to have Warp Charge left (as far as I am aware, there is no such thing as a WC0 power?), so the trigger for the end of the phase (the two options, A and B I mentioned in my previous post) must have been choosing not to resolve any more psychic actions.

Imagine an analogy in the Shooting phase - your unit A has caused 25% casualties on enemy unit 1, but your unit B is not in range to shoot unit 1. At the end of the phase (i.e. once you have completed the steps for each unit you wish to make a shooting attack - page 30), enemy unit 1 fails it's morale test and falls back, bringing it into range of your unit B. You say "I'm going to shoot unit B at unit 1.", your opponent says "But you've already finished shooting all the units you wanted to shoot with, you can't change your mind.".

Is it really being suggested that one can manifest a psychic power despite a rule saying that the psyker can't manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase? I'm trying follow this thread but the argument hasn't been presented well. Please explain the full thought process.

That 'the end' just specifies that all other actions have been completed.

I see it as all other actions includes the actual end of psychic/start of shooting, but there's many people on both sides.

The rule specifically tells you they can - it is literally just that simple... but some people want to try to obfuscate it and make a big issue out of nothing.

Zimko wrote:
Is it really being suggested that one can manifest a psychic power despite a rule saying that the psyker can't manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase? I'm trying follow this thread but the argument hasn't been presented well. Please explain the full thought process.

The basis is an interpretation of the phrase "until the end of the Psychic phase" means that it's ok to cast with those Librarians, as long as it is after all of your other casters.

For example:
I'm eating dinner. At the start of dinner I have my soup, in the middle of dinner I have my steak, at the end of dinner I have my ice-cream. I cannot eat the ice-cream until I have eaten the other food.

The debate strayed into "psychic units" and combined mastery levels, which have been recurring debates since 7th edition came out.

It should be noted that I'd not on the 'pro' side of this debate, so if someone feels I haven't explained the premise, please speak up.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rule specifically tells you they can - it is literally just that simple... but some people want to try to obfuscate it and make a big issue out of nothing.

The rule specifically says that you can't yet some people are trying to twist the wording to demonstrate the impossible.

Tell me how you can cast when you either:

1) Have no warp charges left
2) Have declared that you will no longer cast

Until one of those has happened that End of Phase will not come.

You don't have any warp charge left until after you cast it all.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You don't have any warp charge left until after you cast it all.

I think you may have mis-written that

I will reiterate that page 17 says actions and events that happen during the end of a phase take place before the next phase. That can only mean they take place during the phase in question. Many things in the game take place at the beginning g or the end of a phase.... By the rationale that a phase does not actually have a beginning segment of time nor an end segment of time I which to do these actions or events then none would occur. I can see the reasoning behind the anti-other librarian end of phase casting but it's just wrong in the context of the rules at large.

Dozer Blades, when can other Librarians cast powers?

Malathrim wrote:
I will reiterate that page 17 says actions and events that happen during the end of a phase take place before the next phase. That can only mean they take place during the phase in question. Many things in the game take place at the beginning g or the end of a phase.... By the rationale that a phase does not actually have a beginning segment of time nor an end segment of time I which to do these actions or events then none would occur. I can see the reasoning behind the anti-other librarian end of phase casting but it's just wrong in the context of the rules at large.

The issue still stands that you cannot get to the end of phase step until you have declared you are casting no more powers

And yet page 17 says the end of the phase actions or events occur after all other actions and events of that phase AND before the next phase begins. So yes there's a conflict in the wording of the rules but the spirit is crystal friggin clear.

It's not a permission though, it's a restriction. It does nothing to change the fact that the end of phase step does not happen unless you either have no warp charges left, or you declare you will cast no more powers

If the "spirit" was crystal clear, we wouldn't be having this debate. I personally think it clearly means that other psykers within range cannot cast that turn, yet people disagree.

 jokerkd wrote:
It's not a permission though, it's a restriction. It does nothing to change the fact that the end of phase step does not happen unless you either have no warp charges left, or you declare you will cast no more powers

If the "spirit" was crystal clear, we wouldn't be having this debate. I personally think it clearly means that other psykers within range cannot cast that turn, yet people disagree.

If there are still other warp charges left the phase is not over, if I want to have my other librarians cast powers the phase is not over, so the other librarians can cast powers after all other actions and events during the psychic phase but before the next phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also please look at page 30 regarding the shooting phase. It says "once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault Phase."

Then on page 57 When to Test for Morale:"A unit losing 25% or more of its current models during a single phase must take a Morale check at the END OF THE PHASE ( emphasis mine)".

So by the logic of jokerkd and others we would not take any morale checks after getting shot up right? Wrong.

Malathrim, at what point in the Psychic phase can other Librarians from the formation cast powers?

At the point they're not within 12 inches.

Malathrim.... maybe i wasn't clear. Maybe you just don't understand.

Morale checks are still taken at the end of phase step. I haven't seen anyone claim otherwise. my point is, you cannot proceed to that step until you have declared that you will cast no more powers (or have no warp charges to use).

There is little reason to think that RAI suggests declaring you will not cast any more, but then casting some more, because of the reading of one rule, which also happens to be proved wrong by the reading of the psychic phase rules

Well flip it around for a minute. ASSUMING the other librarians can cast, what is the drawback point to making them wait until after the nominated model- i.e. where is the tradeoff there for sharing powers until the chosen librarian is done?

Page 17 clearly states end of phase actions DO occur.

And the psychic phase rules (im on ebook so cant give page number) say that the end of phase actions only occur after you declare that no more powers will be cast

I run my three Librarians on bikes so I can always position the Alpha where I need him to have range for what I need... Doesn't affect my build in the slightest.

 Quanar wrote:
The basis is an interpretation of the phrase "until the end of the Psychic phase" means that it's ok to cast with those Librarians, as long as it is after all of your other casters.

For example:
I'm eating dinner. At the start of dinner I have my soup, in the middle of dinner I have my steak, at the end of dinner I have my ice-cream. I cannot eat the ice-cream until I have eaten the other food.

The debate strayed into "psychic units" and combined mastery levels, which have been recurring debates since 7th edition came out.

It should be noted that I'd not on the 'pro' side of this debate, so if someone feels I haven't explained the premise, please speak up.

Nah I think you put different meaning to what is written there. Rule is clear and literal.
"Banned" Librarians "cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase". It is not "cannot manifest psychic powers until all other librarians cast their powers". It is not what is written.

The example goes:
You cannot eat until end of dinner. Again - not until you eat one meal or another, not until all other people eat theirs - until end of dinner.
After all agree that dinner ends (either everyone has eaten, everyone don't want to eat or somebody cannot eat) we put dishes to dishwasher.
No more eating.

And again regarding "At the end of a phase" are resolved different things than actions of that phase.

Phase goes like this:

> Start phase
>> Things resolved at the start of phase
> Phase itself
>> Actions in phase
>> Actions in phase
>> Actions in phase
> End of phase
>> Things resolved at end of phase

Same phase with Conclave Librarians:
> Start phase
>> Nominate Librarian // yep it happens at the start of phase - and BRB has rules for it (page 17)
> Phase itself
>> Warp Charge generation // this happens at beginning of a phase, "beginning" is different thing (not covered by the rules) than "at the start of a phase" (covered by the rules)
>> Manifesting powers // "banned" Libbys can't
>> Manifesting powers // "banned" Libbys can't
>> Manifesting powers // "banned" Libbys can't
>> Manifesting powers // "banned" Libbys can't - and BRB has rules about when you call end of phase (page 24 as Quasar pointed out)
> End of phase
>> Morale checks and Grounded Tests for FMC // yep this happens at the end of phase - and BRB has rules for it (page 17)

Can someone please put into above "diagram" when would you like to fit actions of "banned" Librarians?

Please find my in the rules where it says you can perform an action at the end of a phase, since you seem to be so sure that it is possible. Oh and remember, performing an action and resolving an even (like moral checks) are 2 different things.

Also, even if for some rule twisting it could be possible to declare action at the end of a phase, tell me in what moment your librarians can cast. Remember that by rule of the formation it must happen after you have depleted ALL warp charges or you forfeit the chance to cast any more powers.

Under that conditions, that are crystal clear and not an object of discussion, tell me when you would declare that you want to manifest a power.

Malathrim wrote:
I will reiterate that page 17 says actions and events that happen during the end of a phase take place before the next phase. That can only mean they take place during the phase in question. Many things in the game take place at the beginning g or the end of a phase.... By the rationale that a phase does not actually have a beginning segment of time nor an end segment of time I which to do these actions or events then none would occur. I can see the reasoning behind the anti-other librarian end of phase casting but it's just wrong in the context of the rules at large.

And I will reiterate that this is simply irrelevant. I don't see why you focus on "this is part of the psychic phase" when there is a clear rule that says "all other actions" have to be performed, then you resolve "actions and events" that have the "at the end of phase/turn" qualification.

Malathrim wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
It's not a permission though, it's a restriction. It does nothing to change the fact that the end of phase step does not happen unless you either have no warp charges left, or you declare you will cast no more powers

If the "spirit" was crystal clear, we wouldn't be having this debate. I personally think it clearly means that other psykers within range cannot cast that turn, yet people disagree.

If there are still other warp charges left the phase is not over, if I want to have my other librarians cast powers the phase is not over, so the other librarians can cast powers after all other actions and events during the psychic phase but before the next phase.

The phase isn't over unless either a) you run out of charges or b) you declare that you will not manifest further powers. That's what the rule says. Of course you can use other librarians - that were NOT affected by the Lib Conclave "do not cast" ban - to manifest powers if the phase hasn't ended yet (=you have warp charges left and haven't declared that you will manifest no more powers), but that also means that the "end of phase" step hasn't been reached. Therefore, the ban is still in effect.

Breton wrote:
Well flip it around for a minute. ASSUMING the other librarians can cast, what is the drawback point to making them wait until after the nominated model- i.e. where is the tradeoff there for sharing powers until the chosen librarian is done?

Per page 17 the other Librarians in the Formation can cast after all OTHER actions and events during the Psychic Phase, but BEFORE the next Phase.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
Please find my in the rules where it says you can perform an action at the end of a phase, since you seem to be so sure that it is possible. Oh and remember, performing an action and resolving an even (like moral checks) are 2 different things.

Also, even if for some rule twisting it could be possible to declare action at the end of a phase, tell me in what moment your librarians can cast. Remember that by rule of the formation it must happen after you have depleted ALL warp charges or you forfeit the chance to cast any more powers.

Under that conditions, that are crystal clear and not an object of discussion, tell me when you would declare that you want to manifest a power.

Your conditions are murky and not crystal clear, as you are misquoting rules here. Furthermore, page 17 says I can do things at the End of a Phase after all OTHER actions and events occur in that Phase, but BEFORE THE NEXT PHASE.

Why do I need another rule that says I can? Page 17 says I can, because it recognizes that things do happen at the beginning or end of a Phase. Performing an action and events that occur, all still occur, can you cite a rule that specifies the difference in that one occurs and one doesn't? That's not relevant to this discussion in my view.

Also you are incorrect, the rule of the Librarius Conclave DOES NOT say the others have to wait to cast until all warp charges are depleted, it says they cannot manifest powers until the end of the phase. If they could not manifest powers at all if the nominated Librarian did his special thing, why would they put in the 'until the end of the phase', rather than just ending the sentence after cannot manifest powers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All you Enders are saying that the End of the Phase = the Phase ends and therefore the next Phase happens.

I'm saying the End of the Phase =/= the Phase Ends and new Phase begins.

If End of the Phase=Phase Ends and new Phase begins there would be no Morale Checks for Shooting casualties, there would be no Black Mace curse, and no many other things I can't think of or haven't heard of since I don't have every Codex.

The Beginning of a Phase, and End of a Phase are times within the Phase, not non-existent zero points between Phases in which nothing occurs.

Malathrim wrote:

Breton wrote:
Well flip it around for a minute. ASSUMING the other librarians can cast, what is the drawback point to making them wait until after the nominated model- i.e. where is the tradeoff there for sharing powers until the chosen librarian is done?

Per page 17 the other Librarians in the Formation can cast after all OTHER actions and events during the Psychic Phase, but BEFORE the next Phase.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
Please find my in the rules where it says you can perform an action at the end of a phase, since you seem to be so sure that it is possible. Oh and remember, performing an action and resolving an even (like moral checks) are 2 different things.

Also, even if for some rule twisting it could be possible to declare action at the end of a phase, tell me in what moment your librarians can cast. Remember that by rule of the formation it must happen after you have depleted ALL warp charges or you forfeit the chance to cast any more powers.

Under that conditions, that are crystal clear and not an object of discussion, tell me when you would declare that you want to manifest a power.

Your conditions are murky and not crystal clear, as you are misquoting rules here. Furthermore, page 17 says I can do things at the End of a Phase after all OTHER actions and events occur in that Phase, but BEFORE THE NEXT PHASE.

No it doesn't. It says that you resolve a specific kind of actions and events, but you do not perform any other actions than those specified - which basically is "everything that says that it lasts until the end of the phase" and nothing else. See my previous posts.

Malathrim wrote:

All you Enders are saying that the End of the Phase = the Phase ends and therefore the next Phase happens.

I'm saying the End of the Phase =/= the Phase Ends and new Phase begins.

If End of the Phase=Phase Ends and new Phase begins there would be no Morale Checks for Shooting casualties, there would be no Black Mace curse, and no many other things I can't think of or haven't heard of since I don't have every Codex.

The Beginning of a Phase, and End of a Phase are times within the Phase, not non-existent zero points between Phases in which nothing occurs.

That's not what they're saying.

They're saying that 'end of phase' triggers, such as morale checks and such, do not occur until you declare that you're done with all other actions for the phase (just like your oft quoted page 17). This includes being done with manifesting psychic powers. At that point, you perform all 'end of phase' actions BEFORE moving on to the next phase. There's no room in there to cast 'banned' librarian powers because you've already declared that you're done with all other actions for the phase. If you want to try and squeeze more powers into the 'end of phase' step then you're not actually at the 'end of phase' step because casting powers is part of the 'other actions' quoted on page 17.

Doesn't mean they are right though .

Dozer Blades and Malathrim.

When in the Psychic phase can Librarians from the Formation within 12" of the chosen Librarian cast Psychic Powers?

There's no permission given to do so. It says they can't cast powers until the end of the phase. That's a restriction. Once the 'end of phase' step occurs, the restriction is lifted, but the time for casting powers has passed so they can't do it.

Nice try there Zimko.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Nice try there Zimko.

How do you figure?

Librarians from the formation cannot cast powers if they are within 12" of the nominated Psyker until the end of the phase, correct?

The phase ends when either the current player runs out of Psychic Dice or declares they are not casting any more powers, correct?

If both of the previous statements are correct, the aforementioned Librarians cannot cast Psychic Powers until after there are no more Warp Charges or after the controlling player declares that they no more Psychic Powers will be cast.

Can you decide to go into the "End of Shooting phase" and then shoot with units that have not yet shot?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Nice try there Zimko.

Why exactly do you think that what Zimko explained is wrong?

And please, there is no need to be that condescending, it's not constructive or polite at all - especially if you don't even provide ANY explanation as to why you think he's not correct.

The Tenets of You Make Da Call and this article on How to have an intelligent rules debate provide some very useful hints and guidelines.

I have already explained my position there is no need to repeat it again. His counter argument failed to deny it.

As near as I can tell your position is as follows:

Nominate Librarian from the Formation, cast powers as you see fit. Declare you will cast no more Psychic powers (or run out of psychic dice) and go into End of Phase actions. Cast powers from other Librarians in the formation who previously could not.

If I'm wrong please correct me. I've asked where my reading is screwed but you've failed to answer.

Maybe he wants to pretend that the psychic phase ends when he decides and not when the BRB says it does

Doesn't mean they are right though .

So then you're also saying if I'm shooting at your units and don't shoot with one your unit would flee towards, declare end of phase, your unit breaks, and flees towards the unit like I hoped thus ending up in rapid rife range, I can let loose with the unused unit in this "end of phase" and finish off your unit?

What a mess.


I'm not seeing any resolution being likely here... the rules are just too vague to be in any way functional here, so you're going to have to discuss it with your opponent if you're using this in a game.

Moving on for now...