Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The rule specifically tells you they can - it is literally just that simple... but some people want to try to obfuscate it and make a big issue out of nothing.

Zimko wrote:
Is it really being suggested that one can manifest a psychic power despite a rule saying that the psyker can't manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase? I'm trying follow this thread but the argument hasn't been presented well. Please explain the full thought process.

The basis is an interpretation of the phrase "until the end of the Psychic phase" means that it's ok to cast with those Librarians, as long as it is after all of your other casters.

For example:
I'm eating dinner. At the start of dinner I have my soup, in the middle of dinner I have my steak, at the end of dinner I have my ice-cream. I cannot eat the ice-cream until I have eaten the other food.

The debate strayed into "psychic units" and combined mastery levels, which have been recurring debates since 7th edition came out.

It should be noted that I'd not on the 'pro' side of this debate, so if someone feels I haven't explained the premise, please speak up.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rule specifically tells you they can - it is literally just that simple... but some people want to try to obfuscate it and make a big issue out of nothing.

The rule specifically says that you can't yet some people are trying to twist the wording to demonstrate the impossible.

Tell me how you can cast when you either:

1) Have no warp charges left
2) Have declared that you will no longer cast

Until one of those has happened that End of Phase will not come.

You don't have any warp charge left until after you cast it all.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You don't have any warp charge left until after you cast it all.

I think you may have mis-written that

I will reiterate that page 17 says actions and events that happen during the end of a phase take place before the next phase. That can only mean they take place during the phase in question. Many things in the game take place at the beginning g or the end of a phase.... By the rationale that a phase does not actually have a beginning segment of time nor an end segment of time I which to do these actions or events then none would occur. I can see the reasoning behind the anti-other librarian end of phase casting but it's just wrong in the context of the rules at large.

Dozer Blades, when can other Librarians cast powers?

Malathrim wrote:
I will reiterate that page 17 says actions and events that happen during the end of a phase take place before the next phase. That can only mean they take place during the phase in question. Many things in the game take place at the beginning g or the end of a phase.... By the rationale that a phase does not actually have a beginning segment of time nor an end segment of time I which to do these actions or events then none would occur. I can see the reasoning behind the anti-other librarian end of phase casting but it's just wrong in the context of the rules at large.

The issue still stands that you cannot get to the end of phase step until you have declared you are casting no more powers

And yet page 17 says the end of the phase actions or events occur after all other actions and events of that phase AND before the next phase begins. So yes there's a conflict in the wording of the rules but the spirit is crystal friggin clear.

It's not a permission though, it's a restriction. It does nothing to change the fact that the end of phase step does not happen unless you either have no warp charges left, or you declare you will cast no more powers

If the "spirit" was crystal clear, we wouldn't be having this debate. I personally think it clearly means that other psykers within range cannot cast that turn, yet people disagree.

 jokerkd wrote:
It's not a permission though, it's a restriction. It does nothing to change the fact that the end of phase step does not happen unless you either have no warp charges left, or you declare you will cast no more powers

If the "spirit" was crystal clear, we wouldn't be having this debate. I personally think it clearly means that other psykers within range cannot cast that turn, yet people disagree.

If there are still other warp charges left the phase is not over, if I want to have my other librarians cast powers the phase is not over, so the other librarians can cast powers after all other actions and events during the psychic phase but before the next phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also please look at page 30 regarding the shooting phase. It says "once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault Phase."

Then on page 57 When to Test for Morale:"A unit losing 25% or more of its current models during a single phase must take a Morale check at the END OF THE PHASE ( emphasis mine)".

So by the logic of jokerkd and others we would not take any morale checks after getting shot up right? Wrong.

Malathrim, at what point in the Psychic phase can other Librarians from the formation cast powers?

At the point they're not within 12 inches.

Malathrim.... maybe i wasn't clear. Maybe you just don't understand.

Morale checks are still taken at the end of phase step. I haven't seen anyone claim otherwise. my point is, you cannot proceed to that step until you have declared that you will cast no more powers (or have no warp charges to use).

There is little reason to think that RAI suggests declaring you will not cast any more, but then casting some more, because of the reading of one rule, which also happens to be proved wrong by the reading of the psychic phase rules

Well flip it around for a minute. ASSUMING the other librarians can cast, what is the drawback point to making them wait until after the nominated model- i.e. where is the tradeoff there for sharing powers until the chosen librarian is done?

Page 17 clearly states end of phase actions DO occur.

And the psychic phase rules (im on ebook so cant give page number) say that the end of phase actions only occur after you declare that no more powers will be cast

I run my three Librarians on bikes so I can always position the Alpha where I need him to have range for what I need... Doesn't affect my build in the slightest.

 Quanar wrote:
The basis is an interpretation of the phrase "until the end of the Psychic phase" means that it's ok to cast with those Librarians, as long as it is after all of your other casters.

For example:
I'm eating dinner. At the start of dinner I have my soup, in the middle of dinner I have my steak, at the end of dinner I have my ice-cream. I cannot eat the ice-cream until I have eaten the other food.

The debate strayed into "psychic units" and combined mastery levels, which have been recurring debates since 7th edition came out.

It should be noted that I'd not on the 'pro' side of this debate, so if someone feels I haven't explained the premise, please speak up.

Nah I think you put different meaning to what is written there. Rule is clear and literal.
"Banned" Librarians "cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase". It is not "cannot manifest psychic powers until all other librarians cast their powers". It is not what is written.

The example goes:
You cannot eat until end of dinner. Again - not until you eat one meal or another, not until all other people eat theirs - until end of dinner.
After all agree that dinner ends (either everyone has eaten, everyone don't want to eat or somebody cannot eat) we put dishes to dishwasher.
No more eating.

And again regarding "At the end of a phase" are resolved different things than actions of that phase.

Phase goes like this:

> Start phase
>> Things resolved at the start of phase
> Phase itself
>> Actions in phase
>> Actions in phase
>> Actions in phase
> End of phase
>> Things resolved at end of phase

Same phase with Conclave Librarians:
> Start phase
>> Nominate Librarian // yep it happens at the start of phase - and BRB has rules for it (page 17)
> Phase itself
>> Warp Charge generation // this happens at beginning of a phase, "beginning" is different thing (not covered by the rules) than "at the start of a phase" (covered by the rules)
>> Manifesting powers // "banned" Libbys can't
>> Manifesting powers // "banned" Libbys can't
>> Manifesting powers // "banned" Libbys can't
>> Manifesting powers // "banned" Libbys can't - and BRB has rules about when you call end of phase (page 24 as Quasar pointed out)
> End of phase
>> Morale checks and Grounded Tests for FMC // yep this happens at the end of phase - and BRB has rules for it (page 17)

Can someone please put into above "diagram" when would you like to fit actions of "banned" Librarians?

Please find my in the rules where it says you can perform an action at the end of a phase, since you seem to be so sure that it is possible. Oh and remember, performing an action and resolving an even (like moral checks) are 2 different things.

Also, even if for some rule twisting it could be possible to declare action at the end of a phase, tell me in what moment your librarians can cast. Remember that by rule of the formation it must happen after you have depleted ALL warp charges or you forfeit the chance to cast any more powers.

Under that conditions, that are crystal clear and not an object of discussion, tell me when you would declare that you want to manifest a power.

Malathrim wrote:
I will reiterate that page 17 says actions and events that happen during the end of a phase take place before the next phase. That can only mean they take place during the phase in question. Many things in the game take place at the beginning g or the end of a phase.... By the rationale that a phase does not actually have a beginning segment of time nor an end segment of time I which to do these actions or events then none would occur. I can see the reasoning behind the anti-other librarian end of phase casting but it's just wrong in the context of the rules at large.

And I will reiterate that this is simply irrelevant. I don't see why you focus on "this is part of the psychic phase" when there is a clear rule that says "all other actions" have to be performed, then you resolve "actions and events" that have the "at the end of phase/turn" qualification.

Malathrim wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
It's not a permission though, it's a restriction. It does nothing to change the fact that the end of phase step does not happen unless you either have no warp charges left, or you declare you will cast no more powers

If the "spirit" was crystal clear, we wouldn't be having this debate. I personally think it clearly means that other psykers within range cannot cast that turn, yet people disagree.

If there are still other warp charges left the phase is not over, if I want to have my other librarians cast powers the phase is not over, so the other librarians can cast powers after all other actions and events during the psychic phase but before the next phase.

The phase isn't over unless either a) you run out of charges or b) you declare that you will not manifest further powers. That's what the rule says. Of course you can use other librarians - that were NOT affected by the Lib Conclave "do not cast" ban - to manifest powers if the phase hasn't ended yet (=you have warp charges left and haven't declared that you will manifest no more powers), but that also means that the "end of phase" step hasn't been reached. Therefore, the ban is still in effect.

Breton wrote:
Well flip it around for a minute. ASSUMING the other librarians can cast, what is the drawback point to making them wait until after the nominated model- i.e. where is the tradeoff there for sharing powers until the chosen librarian is done?

Per page 17 the other Librarians in the Formation can cast after all OTHER actions and events during the Psychic Phase, but BEFORE the next Phase.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
Please find my in the rules where it says you can perform an action at the end of a phase, since you seem to be so sure that it is possible. Oh and remember, performing an action and resolving an even (like moral checks) are 2 different things.

Also, even if for some rule twisting it could be possible to declare action at the end of a phase, tell me in what moment your librarians can cast. Remember that by rule of the formation it must happen after you have depleted ALL warp charges or you forfeit the chance to cast any more powers.

Under that conditions, that are crystal clear and not an object of discussion, tell me when you would declare that you want to manifest a power.

Your conditions are murky and not crystal clear, as you are misquoting rules here. Furthermore, page 17 says I can do things at the End of a Phase after all OTHER actions and events occur in that Phase, but BEFORE THE NEXT PHASE.

Why do I need another rule that says I can? Page 17 says I can, because it recognizes that things do happen at the beginning or end of a Phase. Performing an action and events that occur, all still occur, can you cite a rule that specifies the difference in that one occurs and one doesn't? That's not relevant to this discussion in my view.

Also you are incorrect, the rule of the Librarius Conclave DOES NOT say the others have to wait to cast until all warp charges are depleted, it says they cannot manifest powers until the end of the phase. If they could not manifest powers at all if the nominated Librarian did his special thing, why would they put in the 'until the end of the phase', rather than just ending the sentence after cannot manifest powers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All you Enders are saying that the End of the Phase = the Phase ends and therefore the next Phase happens.

I'm saying the End of the Phase =/= the Phase Ends and new Phase begins.

If End of the Phase=Phase Ends and new Phase begins there would be no Morale Checks for Shooting casualties, there would be no Black Mace curse, and no many other things I can't think of or haven't heard of since I don't have every Codex.

The Beginning of a Phase, and End of a Phase are times within the Phase, not non-existent zero points between Phases in which nothing occurs.

Malathrim wrote:

Breton wrote:
Well flip it around for a minute. ASSUMING the other librarians can cast, what is the drawback point to making them wait until after the nominated model- i.e. where is the tradeoff there for sharing powers until the chosen librarian is done?

Per page 17 the other Librarians in the Formation can cast after all OTHER actions and events during the Psychic Phase, but BEFORE the next Phase.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
Please find my in the rules where it says you can perform an action at the end of a phase, since you seem to be so sure that it is possible. Oh and remember, performing an action and resolving an even (like moral checks) are 2 different things.

Also, even if for some rule twisting it could be possible to declare action at the end of a phase, tell me in what moment your librarians can cast. Remember that by rule of the formation it must happen after you have depleted ALL warp charges or you forfeit the chance to cast any more powers.

Under that conditions, that are crystal clear and not an object of discussion, tell me when you would declare that you want to manifest a power.

Your conditions are murky and not crystal clear, as you are misquoting rules here. Furthermore, page 17 says I can do things at the End of a Phase after all OTHER actions and events occur in that Phase, but BEFORE THE NEXT PHASE.

No it doesn't. It says that you resolve a specific kind of actions and events, but you do not perform any other actions than those specified - which basically is "everything that says that it lasts until the end of the phase" and nothing else. See my previous posts.

Malathrim wrote:

All you Enders are saying that the End of the Phase = the Phase ends and therefore the next Phase happens.

I'm saying the End of the Phase =/= the Phase Ends and new Phase begins.

If End of the Phase=Phase Ends and new Phase begins there would be no Morale Checks for Shooting casualties, there would be no Black Mace curse, and no many other things I can't think of or haven't heard of since I don't have every Codex.

The Beginning of a Phase, and End of a Phase are times within the Phase, not non-existent zero points between Phases in which nothing occurs.

That's not what they're saying.

They're saying that 'end of phase' triggers, such as morale checks and such, do not occur until you declare that you're done with all other actions for the phase (just like your oft quoted page 17). This includes being done with manifesting psychic powers. At that point, you perform all 'end of phase' actions BEFORE moving on to the next phase. There's no room in there to cast 'banned' librarian powers because you've already declared that you're done with all other actions for the phase. If you want to try and squeeze more powers into the 'end of phase' step then you're not actually at the 'end of phase' step because casting powers is part of the 'other actions' quoted on page 17.

Doesn't mean they are right though .

Dozer Blades and Malathrim.

When in the Psychic phase can Librarians from the Formation within 12" of the chosen Librarian cast Psychic Powers?

There's no permission given to do so. It says they can't cast powers until the end of the phase. That's a restriction. Once the 'end of phase' step occurs, the restriction is lifted, but the time for casting powers has passed so they can't do it.

Nice try there Zimko.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Nice try there Zimko.

How do you figure?

Librarians from the formation cannot cast powers if they are within 12" of the nominated Psyker until the end of the phase, correct?

The phase ends when either the current player runs out of Psychic Dice or declares they are not casting any more powers, correct?

If both of the previous statements are correct, the aforementioned Librarians cannot cast Psychic Powers until after there are no more Warp Charges or after the controlling player declares that they no more Psychic Powers will be cast.

Can you decide to go into the "End of Shooting phase" and then shoot with units that have not yet shot?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Nice try there Zimko.

Why exactly do you think that what Zimko explained is wrong?

And please, there is no need to be that condescending, it's not constructive or polite at all - especially if you don't even provide ANY explanation as to why you think he's not correct.

The Tenets of You Make Da Call and this article on How to have an intelligent rules debate provide some very useful hints and guidelines.