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With the new conclave there seems to be a lot of interesting stuff going around, but I cannot figure out some of the specifics of the rule. When you give all your powers to your designated librarian it says that the others cannot cast until the end of the phase. Now does that mean that they can still cast after the designated Librarian casts his powers if you have warp charges left? Also does this mean you can effectively cast powers twice by having the designate cast his power then the guy who originally generated the power cast it again?

It's the opposite on both cases.

Only one of them gets to use powers at all, and like normal, not the same one more than once.

I'm still unsure why it doesn't say next turn.

Just put it down to expert writers i suppose

It's pretty clear when you aren't bent on bending the wording.

Until the phase ends other psykers cannot cast spells.

 Aijec wrote:
It's pretty clear when you aren't bent on bending the wording.

Until the phase ends other psykers cannot cast spells.

So then ONLY the designated librarian can cast powers at all? That makes a lot more sense to me, and being able to cast the same power twice is really really stupid.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So then ONLY the designated librarian can cast powers at all? That makes a lot more sense to me, and being able to cast the same power twice is really really stupid.

He has acces to their powers - he knows Smite if others (one or two) knows it, but where does it states, that he can cast the same power twice?

There is no rule overriding BRB:
"No unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase"

 danyboy wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
So then ONLY the designated librarian can cast powers at all? That makes a lot more sense to me, and being able to cast the same power twice is really really stupid.

He has acces to their powers - he knows Smite if others (one or two) knows it, but where does it states, that he can cast the same power twice?

There is no rule overriding BRB:
"No unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase"

I have some people I know stating that the designate librarian can cast, then if there is warp dice remaining the other librarians can cast their powers, meaning that if one librarian lent invisibility to the designate librarian he can then cast invisibility after the designate has cast it.

They are incorrect.

I have some people I know stating that the designate librarian can cast, then if there is warp dice remaining the other librarians can cast their powers, meaning that if one librarian lent invisibility to the designate librarian he can then cast invisibility after the designate has cast it.

They are only correct if the next Psyker to cast is in a different unit than the first, and is not a Conclave Librarian.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

I have some people I know stating that the designate librarian can cast, then if there is warp dice remaining the other librarians can cast their powers, meaning that if one librarian lent invisibility to the designate librarian he can then cast invisibility after the designate has cast it.

They are only correct if the next Psyker to cast is in a different unit than the first, and is not a Conclave Librarian.

SJ

In this case the only psykers in play was the librarius conclave (the DA one, but I assume the rules are relatively the same except the 3+ warp charge over a 2+ warp charge and needing zeke)

Some people play it so 2 libbys in the same unit can cast the same power, but if they are a conclave and one is in range to grants the power to another, he cannot cast any powers, as per the conclave rule

 jokerkd wrote:
Some people play it so 2 libbys in the same unit can cast the same power, but if they are a conclave and one is in range to grants the power to another, he cannot cast any powers, as per the conclave rule

You could say that one unit composed of two IC can shoot diferent targets... yet they are one unit, no split fire by default!
Don't know how Libbys can be treated differently
No matter how many libbys in one unit - no casting same power twice.

The argument goes like this....

The psychic phase rules give no permission to add ICs mastery levels together when in a unit. "Psyker" and "psyker unit" apply to A unit with any of the psychic rules. An IC is part of a unit for all rules purposes. When joining a librarian to a brotherhood of psykers unit, you have no permission to add his ML to the unit's when determining how many warp charges you generate.

Obviously no-one wants to play that way, so they assume, for the sake of the psychic phase, that each model with a ML should be treated as separate.

Then they see no reason why you should treat them separately for the purpose of generating, but not for the purpose of manifesting




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 danyboy wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
Some people play it so 2 libbys in the same unit can cast the same power, but if they are a conclave and one is in range to grants the power to another, he cannot cast any powers, as per the conclave rule

You could say that one unit composed of two IC can shoot diferent targets... yet they are one unit, no split fire by default!
Don't know how Libbys can be treated differently
No matter how many libbys in one unit - no casting same power twice.

Also, it is made clear that witchfires can be used against different units, even by the same psyker

Except that per the IC rules, the IC and the unit do not share special rules unless the effects of a special rule targets the unit while the IC is attached. In the case of a Psyker IC attached to a BoP unit, Psyker and BoP are treate separate.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Except that per the IC rules, the IC and the unit do not share special rules unless the effects of a special rule targets the unit while the IC is attached. In the case of a Psyker IC attached to a BoP unit, Psyker and BoP are treate separate.

SJ

Brotherhood of psykers is such a rule

If IC and BOP are treated seperate, they should both be able to cast the same powers

Ouch, I think you are correct jokerkd...

If we treat psyker units like any other units then if I band together 3 Libys ML2 into one unit, that unit generates only 2 Warp Charge...

Thanks for pointing that!

EDIT:

Actually it depends how you understand this sentence BRB:
"Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop."

Can you add Mastery Levels inside that unit or you have to pick only one highest of that unit, or what?

 danyboy wrote:

Actually it depends how you understand this sentence BRB:
"Each player then adds up the Mastery Levels of all the Psyker units they currently have on the tabletop."

Can you add Mastery Levels inside that unit or you have to pick only one highest of that unit, or what?

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any UNIT with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

so technically, you only have one unit. what is a unit of BOP's mastery level according to the rules? ML1 unless specified on the army list entry of that unit

Again, this is not how anyone (that i have heard of) plays it. but people seem to think that you should consider them separate for one thing (generating), but not for the other (manifesting)

i find that way inconsistent, but i'm forced to play what the group/TO decides.

I actually got threatened by a certain store manager for trying to explain this

I just found, that in Poland we have clarification that for purposes of generating Warp Charge and manifesting powers we treat each Psyker/BOP unit as separate unit.

Now I know how I'll play.
Still, rules are "misty"

 danyboy wrote:
I just found, that in Poland we have clarification that for purposes of generating Warp Charge and manifesting powers we treat each Psyker/BOP unit as separate unit.

Now I know how I'll play.
Still, rules are "misty"

My main worry is still "can the other librarians in the conclave cast after the designate" and "can they cast the powers they gave to the designate" ?

Thats the kind of stuff that I think will result in mega cheese builds

I think Empyric Channelling is pretty clear:
"At the start of the Psychic phase, you can nominate one Librarian (...)
nominated Librarian has access to any psychic powers known by other Librarians from this Formation within 12" (...)
other Librarians from this Formation within 12" of the nominated Librarian cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase."

For me it is clear, that those within 12" from nominated can't manifest psychic powers (it's not "that psychic powers", just "psychic powers", so "any psychic powers").

And to be clear - if you nominate 1 Libby he has access to all powers in 12" bubble. If you nominated him, and he use any abiliby granted by Empiric Channeling (either one spell, or bonus to warp harness) all Librarians in bubble cannot manifest psychic powers.

However those Librarians from Formation that are more that 12" still can cast their powers as normal.

 danyboy wrote:
I think Empyric Channelling is pretty clear:
"At the start of the Psychic phase, you can nominate one Librarian (...)
nominated Librarian has access to any psychic powers known by other Librarians from this Formation within 12" (...)
other Librarians from this Formation within 12" of the nominated Librarian cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase."

For me it is clear, that those within 12" from nominated can't manifest psychic powers (it's not "that psychic powers", just "psychic powers", so "any psychic powers").

And to be clear - if you nominate 1 Libby he has access to all powers in 12" bubble. If you nominated him, and he use any abiliby granted by Empiric Channeling (either one spell, or bonus to warp harness) all Librarians in bubble cannot manifest psychic powers.

However those Librarians from Formation that are more that 12" still can cast their powers as normal.

Ok, I think I got it, thats what I was always inclined to believe but I needed a chain of logic to help convince my compatriots thats how it works. Also some intensive research has led me to find that the "End of Phase' is only declared when all warp charge dice are used, so even if they wants to argue the case that they can cast then that means they have no charges to do so with.

They are not BoP which has no relevance in this discussion.

 jokerkd wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Except that per the IC rules, the IC and the unit do not share special rules unless the effects of a special rule targets the unit while the IC is attached. In the case of a Psyker IC attached to a BoP unit, Psyker and BoP are treate separate.

SJ

Brotherhood of psykers is such a rule

If IC and BOP are treated seperate, they should both be able to cast the same powers

So, what I just read from you was: "I don't bother to read".

Per RAW, when Warp Charges are calculated, each IC with Psyker, BoP unit, and each Psychic Pilot vehicle are counted. When casting, the unit casts powers one at a time, no duplicates, unit you either run out of powers to cast, run out of Warp Charges, or move on to the next unit. In the case of casting, an attached IC counts as a member of the unit.

But you probably won't bother to read that, or the rules in the BRB.

San

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

So, what I just read from you was: "I don't bother to read".

Ad Hominem arguments are the best! Am i right? They make you look smart and not like a complete douche!

Per RAW, when Warp Charges are calculated, each IC UNIT with Psyker, BoP unit, and each Psychic Pilot vehicle are counted. When casting, the unit casts powers one at a time, no duplicates, unit you either run out of powers to cast, run out of Warp Charges, or move on to the next unit. In the case of casting, an attached IC counts as a member of the unit.

But you probably won't bother to read that, or the rules in the BRB.

San

fixed to fit RAW.

Can you please provide the rule that allows the IC joined to a unit, to be considered a separate unit when determining the UNIT'S mastery level?

The IC is a separate unit, explicitly stated when calculating Kill Points and other purposes such as Warlord when applicable, then that separate unit comes with it's own ML

 IHateNids wrote:
The IC is a separate unit, explicitly stated when calculating Kill Points and other purposes such as Warlord when applicable, then that separate unit comes with it's own ML

So, because it is counted as separate for one purpose, they should be counted as separate for all purposes?

Are you then agreeing that IC psykers in the same unit can each cast the same power if they know it?

yes, they can

The old GK Hammerhand stack being the primary example

 IHateNids wrote:
yes, they can

The old GK Hammerhand stack being the primary example

Except that powers rarely stack these days, yes they can. The same Psyker cannot cast the same power more than once, but each Psyker in a unit is its own "Psyker unit" for generating Warp Charges and for casting powers. Yet, even so, the rules for what defines a "unit" still exist, which means that when a Psyker casts a power effecting it's entire unit, the effect covers the IC and the unit. Examples such as Force and Hammerhand make this clear.

People still have hang-ups on GW using the same word to mean different things, such as Heavy Flamers and Assault Cannons. Now we have Units of Psyker Units to deal with. Someone needs to get GW a thesaurus ... and a competent technical editor.

SJ

Right, now I see the issue...

I stand by my reasoning though. In the above example, Hammerhand and Force cast by either would effect all, as they both state 'Psyker and his unit', but for powers such as Iron Arm, only the libby would get that (assuming he cast it)

A brotherhood of psykers has to always be in you it coherencey. The librarius conclave only needs to be within 12"