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 IHateNids wrote:
The IC is a separate unit, explicitly stated when calculating Kill Points and other purposes such as Warlord when applicable, then that separate unit comes with it's own ML

I should point out that when an IC is killed, he is removed from coherency with the unit. At some future point after that, he reverts to being a solo unit, anyway. If the unit is not killed quickly, it would be at the end of the next possible movement phase after combat ends, if the unit is killed quickly, it happens at the end of that Phase.

 danyboy wrote:
I think Empyric Channelling is pretty clear:
"At the start of the Psychic phase, you can nominate one Librarian (...)
nominated Librarian has access to any psychic powers known by other Librarians from this Formation within 12" (...)
other Librarians from this Formation within 12" of the nominated Librarian cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase."

For me it is clear, that those within 12" from nominated can't manifest psychic powers (it's not "that psychic powers", just "psychic powers", so "any psychic powers").

And to be clear - if you nominate 1 Libby he has access to all powers in 12" bubble. If you nominated him, and he use any abiliby granted by Empiric Channeling (either one spell, or bonus to warp harness) all Librarians in bubble cannot manifest psychic powers.

However those Librarians from Formation that are more that 12" still can cast their powers as normal.

I don't understand why anyone is thinking that the other Librarians would be unable to cast powers if the special nominated one uses the special rules. It says "cannot manifest until the END of the phase". If warp charges remain then they can cast after the nominee.

Also I see no reason to not add up the warp charges of all the Librarians in a single unit. This was never an issue when 4 Daemon Heralds were floating around with 9 Screamers.

I dont anyone that doesn't allow psykers to all add their mastery level to the pool. The rules don't allow it, so we house rule it

Malathrim wrote:

I don't understand why anyone is thinking that the other Librarians would be unable to cast powers if the special nominated one uses the special rules. It says "cannot manifest until the END of the phase". If warp charges remain then they can cast after the nominee.

When the psychic phase is over, it's the shooting phase.

Dont have my brb handy, but when do witchfire powers get cast? If its during the shooting phase, then all the other libbys can cast witchfires as its a different phase, as the rule at the end of the phase

overlordweasel wrote:
Dont have my brb handy, but when do witchfire powers get cast? If its during the shooting phase, then all the other libbys can cast witchfires as its a different phase, as the rule at the end of the phase

They cast them in the Psychic Phase, else they'd have no warp charge to cast the Witchfires with anyway.

 Aijec wrote:
It's pretty clear when you aren't bent on bending the wording.

Until the phase ends other psykers cannot cast spells.

No it's not clear. There is literally a section in the BRB that says when a rule says "until the end of the phase" that all other actions must be completed in that phase first and then those actions can be completed. So you're completely wrong. That exact phrasing is clarified in the big rule book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Malathrim wrote:

I don't understand why anyone is thinking that the other Librarians would be unable to cast powers if the special nominated one uses the special rules. It says "cannot manifest until the END of the phase". If warp charges remain then they can cast after the nominee.

When the psychic phase is over, it's the shooting phase.

I addressed you confusion in the post above. Both my BRB's are at the local store but it has it's own section in the write up.

So in my mind there is absolutely no question they can, . I rarely run psykers by the way and have never run this. It's what I'd be comfortable with for a ruling for an opponent though

jakejackjake wrote:
No it's not clear. There is literally a section in the BRB that says when a rule says "until the end of the phase" that all other actions must be completed in that phase first and then those actions can be completed. So you're completely wrong. That exact phrasing is clarified in the big rule book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

When the psychic phase is over, it's the shooting phase.

I addressed you confusion in the post above. Both my BRB's are at the local store but it has it's own section in the write up.

So in my mind there is absolutely no question they can, . I rarely run psykers by the way and have never run this. It's what I'd be comfortable with for a ruling for an opponent though

Let me quote BRB for you (Game turns and player turns):

"The Start and End of a Phase
(...)Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a particular phase is always resolved after all other actions have been performed during that phase, before the next phase (if any) starts."

I don't see any "until the end of the phase". Could you quote any other part of the rulebook that says something similar?

Now let's see how Psyhic Phase looks like:
> Start of Phase
--> 1. Generate Warp Charge
--> 2 Manifesting Psychic Powers:
---------> a. Select Psyker and Psychic Power
---------> b. Declare Target
---------> c. Take Psychic Test.
---------> d. Deny the Witch.
---------> e. Resolve Psychic Power
---------> //f. Go back to a
> End of Phase

It is pretty clear:
Phase starts with generating Warp Charge.
Phase ends with manifestig my last power, no matter how many WC I may want to waste or I may be forced to waste.

So when some rule says:
"Librarian cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase"

For me it is pretty clear that when I say my other Librarians cast my last power (I'm at e. in my diagram above) the psychic phase ends.

Please share with me your interpretation, at which point those "banned" Librarians can manifest their powers, because I don't get it?

Powers can be manifested only during the psychic phase.
The ban lasts until the end of the psychic phase.
Your other librarians can cast after the end of the psychic phase has happened. Since this means that you are no longer in the psychic phase then they can't manifest powers.

The only trick available for that is the following:

1) Cast a power, for example invisibility, with the main librarian.
2) With the main librarian cast Levitation and move a secondary librarian out of the 12" range.
3) Cast invisibility with the secondary librarian that is now outside the banned area (without bonuses obviously)

jakejackjake wrote:

 Aijec wrote:
It's pretty clear when you aren't bent on bending the wording.

Until the phase ends other psykers cannot cast spells.

No it's not clear. There is literally a section in the BRB that says when a rule says "until the end of the phase" that all other actions must be completed in that phase first and then those actions can be completed. So you're completely wrong. That exact phrasing is clarified in the big rule book.

But it is. Your explanation even reinforces it! You complete "all other actions", then you resolve anything that had the phrase "unit the end of the phase" and since you've completed all other actions, you then move on to the next phase.

step by step:
There are actions that are allowed in the psychic phase - manifesting powers. And there are ongoing effects that last "until the end of the phase", in this case banning units from manifesting powers. Now you reach said "End of phase" by declaring "i can't or refuse to manifest any other powers" - which removes the permission to manifest any powers from any unit right then and there. You then resolve ongoing effects - so your psykers are now no longer banned from manifesting powers. But they still do not have PERMISSION to manifest them since you're no longer in the psychic phase - but they will be able to do so the next time they gain permission to manifest. Unless you again ban them from using it by a special rule.

This whole discussion is really weird to me, no game I've ever played allowed you to take a regular action of a phase during the "end of phase" step.You declare "end of this phase", deal with the ongoing effects and go to the next phase - only explicit permission allows you to do anything else.
I honestly do not understand how you folks think that once you reach the end of something you're allowed to continue as before. The entire notion is just weird.

Spoletta wrote:

The only trick available for that is the following:

1) Cast a power, for example invisibility, with the main librarian.
2) With the main librarian cast Levitation and move a secondary librarian out of the 12" range.
3) Cast invisibility with the secondary librarian that is now outside the banned area (without bonuses obviously)

That is really interesting situation and this interpretation is possible. I was always thinking that the nomination at the start of Psychic Phase is the trigger point, but I see that your example is possible and it doesn't contradict the rules.

 danyboy wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:
No it's not clear. There is literally a section in the BRB that says when a rule says "until the end of the phase" that all other actions must be completed in that phase first and then those actions can be completed. So you're completely wrong. That exact phrasing is clarified in the big rule book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

When the psychic phase is over, it's the shooting phase.

I addressed you confusion in the post above. Both my BRB's are at the local store but it has it's own section in the write up.

So in my mind there is absolutely no question they can, . I rarely run psykers by the way and have never run this. It's what I'd be comfortable with for a ruling for an opponent though

Let me quote BRB for you (Game turns and player turns):

"The Start and End of a Phase
(...)Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a particular phase is always resolved after all other actions have been performed during that phase, before the next phase (if any) starts."

I don't see any "until the end of the phase". Could you quote any other part of the rulebook that says something similar?

Now let's see how Psyhic Phase looks like:
> Start of Phase
--> 1. Generate Warp Charge
--> 2 Manifesting Psychic Powers:
---------> a. Select Psyker and Psychic Power
---------> b. Declare Target
---------> c. Take Psychic Test.
---------> d. Deny the Witch.
---------> e. Resolve Psychic Power
---------> //f. Go back to a
> End of Phase

It is pretty clear:
Phase starts with generating Warp Charge.
Phase ends with manifestig my last power, no matter how many WC I may want to waste or I may be forced to waste.

So when some rule says:
"Librarian cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase"

For me it is pretty clear that when I say my other Librarians cast my last power (I'm at e. in my diagram above) the psychic phase ends.

Please share with me your interpretation, at which point those "banned" Librarians can manifest their powers, because I don't get it?

"The end of the phase" is a point that still exists within the Psychic Phase, not some point in time after the Psychic Phase. If multiple events occur at either the beginning of the end of a phase, the player whose turn it is gets to pick what happens first at that point in the phase. So if warp charges remain in the pool, the non nominated Librarian(s) can cast what powers they know per normal casting rules.

And I see no limiting rules within the Conclave saying they can't cast a power that the nominated Librarian has cast using the shared knowledge. So nominated Librarian could cast a spell while joined to one unit that he knows from being within 12" of some other Libby joined to a different unit, and that latter Libby could then cast the same power again si de he still knows his powers and is in a different unit. This has the potential to make two units gain invisibility or perfect timing, for example, via one psykers' powers.

I will reiterate my view that if multiple psykers are joined to one unit they still add up all their mastery levels for warp charge generation. I've never seen anyone, including any TOs say otherwise, and many Eldar players would have a fit!

Let's have fun with our new awesome formation!

Malathrim wrote:

"The end of the phase" is a point that still exists within the Psychic Phase, not some point in time after the Psychic Phase. If multiple events occur at either the beginning of the end of a phase, the player whose turn it is gets to pick what happens first at that point in the phase. So if warp charges remain in the pool, the non nominated Librarian(s) can cast what powers they know per normal casting rules.

And I see no limiting rules within the Conclave saying they can't cast a power that the nominated Librarian has cast using the shared knowledge. So nominated Librarian could cast a spell while joined to one unit that he knows from being within 12" of some other Libby joined to a different unit, and that latter Libby could then cast the same power again si de he still knows his powers and is in a different unit. This has the potential to make two units gain invisibility or perfect timing, for example, via one psykers' powers.

I will reiterate my view that if multiple psykers are joined to one unit they still add up all their mastery levels for warp charge generation. I've never seen anyone, including any TOs say otherwise, and many Eldar players would have a fit!

Let's have fun with our new awesome formation!

The end of the phase is the end of the fething phase, not part of the phase. That's why you call it the end. Until you as the acting player decide that you have nothing else you want or can do, the phase does not end. Once you decide that it ends, it ends. You simply resolve any lingering effects in any order you choose and then the phase ends. The point of having "until end of phase" or "until end of turn" words is explicitly to have that effect affect anything you might want to do in that phase or turn.

End of phase / end of turn is a pretty simple thing, you are simply not allowed to continue with phase activities once you reach the end of the phase. If you choose to interpret it otherwise, it's a house rule - but certainly not RAW and in this case also clearly not RAI. And HIWPI would be "no fething way you get to manifest with any of the psykers that just boosted this one guy".

Malathrim wrote:
"The end of the phase" is a point that still exists within the Psychic Phase, not some point in time after the Psychic Phase. If multiple events occur at either the beginning of the end of a phase, the player whose turn it is gets to pick what happens first at that point in the phase. So if warp charges remain in the pool, the non nominated Librarian(s) can cast what powers they know per normal casting rules.

And I see no limiting rules within the Conclave saying they can't cast a power that the nominated Librarian has cast using the shared knowledge. So nominated Librarian could cast a spell while joined to one unit that he knows from being within 12" of some other Libby joined to a different unit, and that latter Libby could then cast the same power again si de he still knows his powers and is in a different unit. This has the potential to make two units gain invisibility or perfect timing, for example, via one psykers' powers.

I will reiterate my view that if multiple psykers are joined to one unit they still add up all their mastery levels for warp charge generation. I've never seen anyone, including any TOs say otherwise, and many Eldar players would have a fit!

Let's have fun with our new awesome formation!

Well I don't get it. The thing is that rule specifically say that librarians within 12" from nominated cannot manifest their powers until end of phase.

If you have WC and you will not call "end of phase" the phase still exists and you are not able to manifest their powers. Once you call it "end of phase" that is what happens! Phase is ended no more manifesting powers...

 danyboy wrote:

Malathrim wrote:
"The end of the phase" is a point that still exists within the Psychic Phase, not some point in time after the Psychic Phase. If multiple events occur at either the beginning of the end of a phase, the player whose turn it is gets to pick what happens first at that point in the phase. So if warp charges remain in the pool, the non nominated Librarian(s) can cast what powers they know per normal casting rules.

And I see no limiting rules within the Conclave saying they can't cast a power that the nominated Librarian has cast using the shared knowledge. So nominated Librarian could cast a spell while joined to one unit that he knows from being within 12" of some other Libby joined to a different unit, and that latter Libby could then cast the same power again si de he still knows his powers and is in a different unit. This has the potential to make two units gain invisibility or perfect timing, for example, via one psykers' powers.

I will reiterate my view that if multiple psykers are joined to one unit they still add up all their mastery levels for warp charge generation. I've never seen anyone, including any TOs say otherwise, and many Eldar players would have a fit!

Let's have fun with our new awesome formation!

Well I don't get it. The thing is that rule specifically say that librarians within 12" from nominated cannot manifest their powers until end of phase.

If you have WC and you will not call "end of phase" the phase still exists and you are not able to manifest their powers. Once you call it "end of phase" that is what happens! Phase is ended no more manifesting powers...

I think this is why they got rid of instants and interrupts in M:tG. I can see what is being said in that light. It's elegant, and technical. I don't know that I buy it, but it does have some merit.

The problem is that the second you treat all models in the psykers unit as the same for the psychic phase the entire rules system falls apart.

Only one independent psyker in the unit would generate warp charges.

Any psyker in the unit can take the perils of the warp hit, not necessarily the one who casts the spell(perils of the warp affects the UNIT, it does not say anything about it being the caster).

Iron Arm applies to every psyker in the unit, so on and so forth.

The only consistent rules interpretation that works treats each psyker as a independent unit for the purposes of casting. Some tournaments have ruled otherwise for certain aspects and that is fine. But that is them making personal house rules.

Okay, regarding the End of the Phase, all you doubters need to look and read the section on Page 17 of the BRB, or at least it's that page in my tiny rulebook from a starter box:

"THE START AND END OF A PHASE"
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens at the start of a particular phase, such as 'at the start of your Movement phase' or 'at the start of your Shooting phase'. These are always resolved before anything else during that phase. Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a particular phase is always resolved after all other actions have been performed during that phase, before the next phase (if any) starts.

The end of a rope is still part of the rope, and the above rule spells that out, as the end stuff still happens BEFORE the next phase, and there's no intermission phase between phases. So the end of a phase is still a part of the phase.+++>END TRANSMISSION FOR THAT ARGUMENT

Looks like Leth is agreeing that all the Libbies joined into a single unit would still generate warp charges for each of their Mastery Levels which is also how I view it (and I have not yet seen any other method of interpretation in actual games played.)

Yep, that's correct on both counts.

Malathrim wrote:
Okay, regarding the End of the Phase, all you doubters need to look and read the section on Page 17 of the BRB, or at least it's that page in my tiny rulebook from a starter box:

"THE START AND END OF A PHASE"
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens at the start of a particular phase, such as 'at the start of your Movement phase' or 'at the start of your Shooting phase'. These are always resolved before anything else during that phase. Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a particular phase is always resolved after all other actions have been performed during that phase, before the next phase (if any) starts.

The end of a rope is still part of the rope, and the above rule spells that out, as the end stuff still happens BEFORE the next phase, and there's no intermission phase between phases. So the end of a phase is still a part of the phase.+++>END TRANSMISSION FOR THAT ARGUMENT

The rule literally says that "any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a particar phase" - this means ANY rule that says "at the end of the phase" - is only resolved after(!) "all other actions have been performed during that phase". This means that you cannot take any actions in that phase once you're resolving the "until end of phase" actions and events. Whether or not the step "end of phase" is part of the phase or not is just a technicality that changes nothing since you had to perform all other actions prior to resolving the "end of phase" actions and events.
You're simply not allowed to do anything else. The word "always" makes sure of that.
And please do not ask "Where does it say I can't?!" , but provide a rule that overrides the "any rule that says an action or event happens at the end of a parrticular phase is always resolved after all other actions" part. If you can't, that's your answer.

The end of the phase is the last action to occur - so you can manifest one spell.

The end of the phase is not an action, is an event and it happens after all the actions have been completed.

No matter how you read the rules you can't cast at "End of phase" like we were playing MTG.
The end of phase happens when the player declares he has nothing more to do in that phase.
If you do that declaration then you can't manifest powers any more.

regardless of your metaphysical or Theosophical definition of the word "end", the rule says that any action or event that occurs at the end of a phase is resolved:

1) after all OTHER actions during that phase (not after ALL actions during that phase, which is what you End Times people seem to suggest creates a conflict)

And

2) BEFORE the next phase starts.

So if the end of the phase events occur before the next phase begins then they most certainly occur in the phase of which the End is a part. If the End of a Phase does not exist, then things lime the Black Mace's curse second component would not take place either.

Malathrim wrote:
regardless of your metaphysical or Theosophical definition of the word "end", the rule says that any action or event that occurs at the end of a phase is resolved:

1) after all OTHER actions during that phase (not after ALL actions during that phase, which is what you End Times people seem to suggest creates a conflict)

And

2) BEFORE the next phase starts.

So if the end of the phase events occur before the next phase begins then they most certainly occur in the phase of which the End is a part. If the End of a Phase does not exist, then things lime the Black Mace's curse second component would not take place either.

As I've already said: Whether or not the step "end of phase" is part of the phase or not is just a technicality that changes nothing since you had to perform all other actions prior to resolving the "end of phase" actions and events. And "all other actions" refers to any other action besides resolving the "until end of phase" events and actions.

Therefore you cannot take any other action at that stage, for example "manifesting a power". It really doesn't matter much whether you treat the "end of phase" step as part of the phase or not - either way you can't perfom any actions, you can only resolve "until end of phase actions and events". Note the difference between "perform" (as in "you choose to do something") and "resolve" (something happens due to previously evoked rules, you just determine what happened) here, too.

Manifesting Psychic Powers can only occur during Psychic Phase.
"Banned" Librarians are not allowed to manifest Psychic Powers.
If you have nothing to do you say End of Psychic Phase. Phase Ended.

Now happens things that you resolve AT THE End of that phase. Not until. AT THE END.
Rulebook clearly states AT THE END.
This are things like Morale checks on units with 25% casualites (after whichfire or smth).

Going your way of thinking I would shoot enemy unit, kill 25% models.
Then I would say end of shooting phase.
Then they would do morale checks (hopefully fail - fallback 2d6).
Then I would say oh I've got one more unit that did not shoot yet. So I would make some more damage to them.
Then they would make morale checks (hopefully fall back another 2d6)
And then I would remebered that my another unit did not shoot...
It is not how it works...

Spoletta wrote:
The end of the phase is not an action, is an event and it happens after all the actions have been completed.

No matter how you read the rules you can't cast at "End of phase" like we were playing MTG.
The end of phase happens when the player declares he has nothing more to do in that phase.
If you do that declaration then you can't manifest powers any more.

Can you point me to where the written rules reside to support this fallious claim ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
The end of the phase is not an action, is an event and it happens after all the actions have been completed.

No matter how you read the rules you can't cast at "End of phase" like we were playing MTG.
The end of phase happens when the player declares he has nothing more to do in that phase.
If you do that declaration then you can't manifest powers any more.

Can you point me to where the written rules reside to support this fallious claim ?

Rulebook, page 24, last paragraph of Generate Warp Charge:

If, after resolving a psychic action - such as manifesting a psychic power - the player whose turn it is has 0 Warp Charge points remaining, the Psychic phase ends. The Psychic phase also ends if you either cannot, or choose not to, resolve any more psychic actions. When the Psychic phase ends, all remaining Warp Charge points belonging to both players (if any) are lost and the Shooting phase begins.

I've altered the emphasis, to reflect your question.

The other librarians cannot cast until the end of the phase. How do we know that we've reached the end of the phase to trigger the removal of the restriction?
A) We've run out of Warp Charge, or
B) We've declared we aren't going to do any other psychic actions.

So it ends when another Libby uses the last of the warp charge.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it ends when another Libby uses the last of the warp charge.

A phase doesn't have multiple endings, else you'd have to take multiple Morale tests for a unit that had suffered 25% casualties - in order for the other Librarian to cast, you have to have reached the end of the phase to trigger the lifting of the restriction (which also triggers the Morale test).

So in order to cast with that Librarian, you have to have Warp Charge left (as far as I am aware, there is no such thing as a WC0 power?), so the trigger for the end of the phase (the two options, A and B I mentioned in my previous post) must have been choosing not to resolve any more psychic actions.

Imagine an analogy in the Shooting phase - your unit A has caused 25% casualties on enemy unit 1, but your unit B is not in range to shoot unit 1. At the end of the phase (i.e. once you have completed the steps for each unit you wish to make a shooting attack - page 30), enemy unit 1 fails it's morale test and falls back, bringing it into range of your unit B. You say "I'm going to shoot unit B at unit 1.", your opponent says "But you've already finished shooting all the units you wanted to shoot with, you can't change your mind.".

Is it really being suggested that one can manifest a psychic power despite a rule saying that the psyker can't manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase? I'm trying follow this thread but the argument hasn't been presented well. Please explain the full thought process.

That 'the end' just specifies that all other actions have been completed.

I see it as all other actions includes the actual end of psychic/start of shooting, but there's many people on both sides.