I played my Biotitan in the Last apoc Game.
Space Marine Player dropped a squad of 3 centurions with Pod next to him killing him Instantly with grav And missile Shooting in the Shooting Phase.
300 points Unit killing a 1000 Point Unit ... No way to avoid!!!!!

We Need a fix for grav And gargantuan creatures

Did you forge the narrative?
Jokes aside, GC's got a SR that helps versus poison.
Giving them something akin to that versus grav should be house-ruleable.

Other player refuses those houserules..

 Thairne wrote:
Did you forge the narrative?
Jokes aside, GC's got a SR that helps versus poison.
Giving them something akin to that versus grav should be house-ruleable.

And why should there be special rules against grav for Gargantuan Creatures? They already get special rules against Poison(one of the easiest ways to ensure Wounds on Monstrous Creatures), Sniper weaponry, and weapons that inflict Instant Death or "remove from play"(seriously: if they suffer from a Remove From Play--they take D3 Wounds instead), so why should they get an immunity to Grav?

Grav isn't targeting weak points or anything like that. It's utilizing the target's own mass against them.

It's not because one given weapon killed your beloved model that we all need to fix it. GMC are tough enough, I think everybody can agree on that (6+ on poison/sniper, high T, good saves and FnP, very often invulnerable saves) and grav is not always the panacea against them.

I play IG mech and LC and Missiles are always tough match. Am I complaining because AT weapons actually kill tanks? Grav is pretty much the only true weakness of GMC so next time, wrap up your monster with a thousand gaunts and perhaps you'll see you can actually avoid such cases more easily.

The biggest quip with Grav is their RoF. A 5-shot weapon, re=rolling wounds, is too much. Maybe if it fired 2 or 3, having the gun version rapid fire, would be much more palatable (of course, making centurions cheaper - 15-20p each model, probably)

 Vector Strike wrote:
The biggest quip with Grav is their RoF. A 5-shot weapon, re=rolling wounds, is too much. Maybe if it fired 2 or 3, having the gun version rapid fire, would be much more palatable (of course, making centurions cheaper - 15-20p each model, probably)

The biggest quip with Grav is also the biggest strike against it, IMO.

Grav weapons are Salvo, meaning that unless the model has a special rule that they don't count as having moved--those units are stuck being immobile.
And remember that "rerolling Wounds" is from the Grav Amps, which outside of Centurions, an upgrade for the Grav Cannons IIRC.

Grav amps are free on devastators too.

And grav is hideously broken against GC. SHV are superior to GC as it is, without having a commonly available uncounterable oneshot.

It's the specific hard counter to your unit. It would be like saying Titans are useless because they drop podded in a bunch of sternguard with combi-meltas next to one and took it out that way. It sucks to lose your big cool unit like that, but it can happen.

 Brother SRM wrote:
It's the specific hard counter to your unit. It would be like saying Titans are useless because they drop podded in a bunch of sternguard with combi-meltas next to one and took it out that way. It sucks to lose your big cool unit like that, but it can happen.

It's not comparable at all. A squad of 5 podded meltasternguard do what, 5 hullpoints of damage? A Warhound can survive that. If it has its voidshields up (it likely will, meltapods are usually T1 alpha strikes) it survives it without an issue, barely suffering any hull point damage at all (because the shields eat a melta hit regardless of the HP damage it did). Hell, a Warhound is even 22.5% cheaper than a Hierophant.

Whereas Grav usually oneshots because the Hierophant sits on its 2+

Why didn't you just take 3 dakka tyrants instead of the sucky bio titans, I didn't see a lot of their rules, but the ones I did had bad stats. Plus don't have invisibility or invs like other factions have.

Well they'll always get the obligatory "I'm IoM so I have to be better" bonus, but doesn't IoM have trouble getting fleshbane? Don't other races have that more readily available and it does pretty much the same thing?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Grav amps are free on devastators too.

And grav is hideously broken against GC. SHV are superior to GC as it is, without having a commonly available uncounterable oneshot.

SHV have Haywire, Melta, and CC, which is FAR more abundant than Grav weaponry...

And you have to separate Titans from SHV such as tanks. Superheavy Walkers are essentially their own beast.

Also, totally worth mentioning?
While Superheavy vehicles are immune to any result but "Explodes!" on the Vehicle Damage table, they still lose Hull Points. GCs don't lose Wounds if they got hit and essentially ignored it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Grav amps are free on devastators too.

And grav is hideously broken against GC. SHV are superior to GC as it is, without having a commonly available uncounterable oneshot.

SHV have Haywire, Melta, and CC, which is FAR more abundant than Grav weaponry...

And you have to separate Titans from SHV such as tanks. Superheavy Walkers are essentially their own beast.

SHV compensates for Haywire and Melta by usually having much more HP than a Gargantuan has wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

While Superheavy vehicles are immune to any result but "Explodes!" on the Vehicle Damage table, they still lose Hull Points. GCs don't lose Wounds if they got hit and essentially ignored it.

They lose extra wounds from ID instead, which is comparable.

Go ahead, ask anyone what they think is scarier, a warhound or a hierophant. I can gaurantee you that most will say the Warhound. It is harder to kill and has much more firepower for a lower cost. Who cares that the Hiero has more attacks, it will never get to use them.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Grav amps are free on devastators too.

And grav is hideously broken against GC. SHV are superior to GC as it is, without having a commonly available uncounterable oneshot.

SHV have Haywire, Melta, and CC, which is FAR more abundant than Grav weaponry...

And you have to separate Titans from SHV such as tanks. Superheavy Walkers are essentially their own beast.

SHV compensates for Haywire and Melta by usually having much more HP than a Gargantuan has wounds.

A Knight, which is a SHV, has 6 Hull Points.

And a Knight doesn't come with a high armor save and a FNP save to potentially ignore the Wound.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Grav amps are free on devastators too.

And grav is hideously broken against GC. SHV are superior to GC as it is, without having a commonly available uncounterable oneshot.

SHV have Haywire, Melta, and CC, which is FAR more abundant than Grav weaponry...

And you have to separate Titans from SHV such as tanks. Superheavy Walkers are essentially their own beast.

SHV compensates for Haywire and Melta by usually having much more HP than a Gargantuan has wounds.

A Knight, which is a SHV, has 6 Hull Points.

And a Knight doesn't come with a high armor save and a FNP save to potentially ignore the Wound.

And the Knight is a third of the Hierophant's price, and gets a directional 4++ to boot.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Grav amps are free on devastators too.

And grav is hideously broken against GC. SHV are superior to GC as it is, without having a commonly available uncounterable oneshot.

SHV have Haywire, Melta, and CC, which is FAR more abundant than Grav weaponry...

And you have to separate Titans from SHV such as tanks. Superheavy Walkers are essentially their own beast.

SHV compensates for Haywire and Melta by usually having much more HP than a Gargantuan has wounds.

A Knight, which is a SHV, has 6 Hull Points.

And a Knight doesn't come with a high armor save and a FNP save to potentially ignore the Wound.

And the Knight is a third of the Hierophant's price, and gets a directional 4++ to boot.

So Hierophants need to declare which facing gets their armor save and FNP save?

That's cool!

When are you ever not going to ignore its 2+ when you fire at a T9 model?

2+ is extremely overrated unless it's on a cheap MC like a riptide.

And the Hiero is not cheap.

 Ashiraya wrote:
When are you ever not going to ignore its 2+ when you fire at a T9 model?

2+ is extremely overrated unless it's on a cheap MC like a riptide.

And the Hiero is not cheap.

It's GRAV WEAPONRY.

It's amazing against models with high armor saves, but trash against things with low armor saves.
So while Grav might slaughter that Hierophant, it's wounding Gaunts on a what now?

Combi-meltas are kinda wasted on gaunts too.
What's the point?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Combi-meltas are kinda wasted on gaunts too.
What's the point?

What's the point of your remark?

Grav is meant to be a counter to high armor save models with Toughness values. It's the creature version of Haywire.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Combi-meltas are kinda wasted on gaunts too.
What's the point?

What's the point of your remark?

Grav is meant to be a counter to high armor save models with Toughness values. It's the creature version of Haywire.

But it is WAY more effective than other 'counter' weapons, and kills expensive models far too easily.

 winterwind85 wrote:
I played my Biotitan in the Last apoc Game.
Space Marine Player dropped a squad of 3 centurions with Pod next to him killing him Instantly with grav And missile Shooting in the Shooting Phase.
300 points Unit killing a 1000 Point Unit ... No way to avoid!!!!!

We Need a fix for grav And gargantuan creatures

If you're playing strict rules as written since you're meta doesn't feel kindly about house rules (if it's the Hierophant you're talking about) take the Incubation Chamber upgrade and have a Venomthrope inside the Hierophant. Gives you Shrouded.

Then stick a single toe inside a piece of Ruins. Bam, 2+ cover! (make sure you negate perfect timing with all your Psychic Dice though )

Other than that, it's not make GC more survivable too Grav, it's reduce the amount of shots/number of platforms you can take it on that don't care for Salvo.

Yeah. SHV don't get a special resistance to melta or haywire just because they are super heavies.

But Garguantan creatures do get special resistance to the special anti-personell weapons of sniper and poison.

So it seems dumb to give them yet another special resistance, seeing as the SHV don't get to straight up ignore the weapons optimized against them like GC do. Why the hell do GC ignore sniper weapons anyway? If you think they are too underpowered, change their points cost or something.

Super heavy vehicles ignore the incremental damage results from penetrating hits though. They don't get stunned/shaken, they don't lose weapons, they don't get immobilized.

Why would would an anti-personnel round have a chance of hurting Godzilla?

It's a hard fix, but the biotitans do need a buff from what I've seen.

Just fix grav and/or the worst offenders that can carry them.

What else is going to kill a Biotitan besides Grav?

I don't see any practical way to deal with T9 2+ armor with FnP other than Grav weaponry.

 Grey Templar wrote:
What else is going to kill a Biotitan besides Grav?

I don't see any practical way to deal with T9 2+ armor with FnP other than Grav weaponry.

D weapons. But those aren't very co-oh... never mind.

 Grey Templar wrote:
What else is going to kill a Biotitan besides Grav?

I don't see any practical way to deal with T9 2+ armor with FnP other than Grav weaponry.

It costs 1000 points.

With 1000 points, I am sure you can figure something out.

Lets see, lascannons? Nope, can't get enough for 1000 points.

Melta? Still too few shots needing 5s to wound, and requires you to get too close.

Plasma? Hell no. 6s to wound is garbage.

All we are left with is Grav.

Grav is the hard counter to GCs. It's almost as if it is exactly designed for the job.

"Look at that huge, heavy, walking monstrosity, Sarge!"
"Oh yeah? Watch me crush it under its own mass. Physics, b*tch!"

Well, that and other super heavies with titan killing weapons.

You can get almost three Knights for that price, and I'm pretty sure they could deal with the Hierophant.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/654710.page

For the general consensus on this matchup according to dakka. Don't be so silly as to think a GMC should be able to survive against a round of shooting from a grav devastator squad.

 Blacksails wrote:
Well, that and other super heavies with titan killing weapons.

You can get almost three Knights for that price, and I'm pretty sure they could deal with the Hierophant.

The Hierophant is not even D in melee.

You could take it in CC with one knight.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Lets see, lascannons? Nope, can't get enough for 1000 points.

Melta? Still too few shots needing 5s to wound, and requires you to get too close.

Plasma? Hell no. 6s to wound is garbage.

All we are left with is Grav.

I dunno how many wounds it has , but anything with fleshbane is going to pull a number on it.
Even "just" a poultry sorceror with iron arm and the black mace is going to take a huge chunk out of that titan.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Well, that and other super heavies with titan killing weapons.

You can get almost three Knights for that price, and I'm pretty sure they could deal with the Hierophant.

The Hierophant is not even D in melee.

You could take it in CC with one knight.

It doesn't need to be. Str10 is plenty to wreck up a Knight. Does depend on how lucky the knight rolls for his multiple wounds.

2 I think do statistically put it in the ground, but that depends on a lot of variables.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Roknar wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Lets see, lascannons? Nope, can't get enough for 1000 points.

Melta? Still too few shots needing 5s to wound, and requires you to get too close.

Plasma? Hell no. 6s to wound is garbage.

All we are left with is Grav.

I dunno how many wounds it has , but anything with fleshbane is going to pull a number on it.
Even "just" a poultry sorceror with iron arm and the black mace is going to take a huge chunk out of that titan.

Not much Fleshbane has Ap2 to go along with it.

Its full defensive statline is T9, 10 wounds, 2+ armor, and FnP.

 Grey Templar wrote:


It doesn't need to be. Str10 is plenty to wreck up a Knight. Does depend on how lucky the knight rolls for his multiple wounds.

2 I think do statistically put it in the ground, but that depends on a lot of variables.

Yeah, which seems fairly reasonable to me. I feel that if you're playing a game with super heavies, a reasonable counter is a rough equivalent in opposing super heavies. At least then you have the spectacle of watching your giant gribblies wrestle with each other.

Of course having a squad of Centurions deep strike in and heroically annihilate the enemy with its own weight is also pretty cool.

Not so cool for the Tyranid player, I imagine.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Of course having a squad of Centurions deep strike in and heroically annihilate the enemy with its own weight is also pretty cool.

If you're the commander of the cents, sure.

If I had the Hierophant, and given the choice between death by grav cents and death by Knights/Stompa/other large beasty, I'd choose the latter.

YMMV of course. All that said, I feel that grav and/or certain carriers of grav could use a sprinkling of nerf dust.

You're not forging the narrative hard enough, because a team of Space Marines podding in next to a giant monstrosity to take it out with Marine-portable weapons is exactly the kind of thing 40K is known for.... it is, in fact, the sort of thing the game strives to depict.

Being the commander of the heirophant I would even be ok with a similar amount of points shooting into it to take it down (even if it only takes one turn's worth of shooting). The fact that if a group of grav devastators catches one out of cover they easily remove it is just... wtf

 Psienesis wrote:
You're not forging the narrative hard enough, because a team of Space Marines podding in next to a giant monstrosity to take it out with Marine-portable weapons is exactly the kind of thing 40K is known for.... it is, in fact, the sort of thing the game strives to depict.

Yea, just as long as its the space marines being the hero

Roknar wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
You're not forging the narrative hard enough, because a team of Space Marines podding in next to a giant monstrosity to take it out with Marine-portable weapons is exactly the kind of thing 40K is known for.... it is, in fact, the sort of thing the game strives to depict.

Yea, just as long as its the space marines being the hero

Then the Centurions get swamped by Gaunts.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Grav amps are free on devastators too.

? Am I missing something?

Centurion Devastators pay 25 points for Grav + Amp.

Regular Devastators pay 35 points for Grav + Amp.

 kronk wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Grav amps are free on devastators too.

? Am I missing something?

Centurion Devastators pay 25 points for Grav + Amp.

Regular Devastators pay 35 points for Grav + Amp.

I mean they come free with the cannons.

 Psienesis wrote:
You're not forging the narrative hard enough, because a team of Space Marines podding in next to a giant monstrosity to take it out with Marine-portable weapons is exactly the kind of thing 40K is known for.... it is, in fact, the sort of thing the game strives to depict.

40k is equally known for giant monstrosities fighting other giant monstrosities.

Given a choice between the two equally fluffy and reasonable ways to delete a hierophant, I'll always choose the option where giant things fight other giant things.

So, Grey Templar, since grav is perfectly fine and other things just won't do it against 'phants, does that mean I can't kill the 'phant as a CSM player? I have no grav, after all.

 Ashiraya wrote:
So, Grey Templar, since grav is perfectly fine and other things just won't do it against 'phants, does that mean I can't kill the 'phant as a CSM player? I have no grav, after all.

Playing CSM tho, forging the narrative means you're forever trapped in the role of punching bag. :V

 Ashiraya wrote:
So, Grey Templar, since grav is perfectly fine and other things just won't do it against 'phants, does that mean I can't kill the 'phant as a CSM player? I have no grav, after all.

Possibly. GW has repeatedly screwed CSM in the balance department.

 winterwind85 wrote:
I played my Biotitan in the Last apoc Game.
Space Marine Player dropped a squad of 3 centurions with Pod next to him killing him Instantly with grav And missile Shooting in the Shooting Phase.
300 points Unit killing a 1000 Point Unit ... No way to avoid!!!!!

We Need a fix for grav And gargantuan creatures

What were you using to support/bubble wrap your bio-titan?

Roknar wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
You're not forging the narrative hard enough, because a team of Space Marines podding in next to a giant monstrosity to take it out with Marine-portable weapons is exactly the kind of thing 40K is known for.... it is, in fact, the sort of thing the game strives to depict.

Yea, just as long as its the space marines being the hero

Has GW ever really gone any other way for long?

 winterwind85 wrote:
... No way to avoid!!!!!

That isn't true at all. There is castling and bubble wrap. Gaunts are probably the cheapest bubble wrap in the game.

If your opponent has pods of any kind I say it is your fault for using poor tactics and not considering threat.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Super heavy vehicles ignore the incremental damage results from penetrating hits though. They don't get stunned/shaken, they don't lose weapons, they don't get immobilized.

Do Gargantuan Creatures ignore the Concussive effect of Grav?

 winterwind85 wrote:
I played my Biotitan in the Last apoc Game.
Space Marine Player dropped a squad of 3 centurions with Pod next to him killing him Instantly with grav And missile Shooting in the Shooting Phase.
300 points Unit killing a 1000 Point Unit ... No way to avoid!!!!!

We Need a fix for grav And gargantuan creatures

Good luck that happening. The IoM would flip out if they couldn't drop pod and instantkill whatever they want anymore.

Pretty much this XD

Alcibiades wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Super heavy vehicles ignore the incremental damage results from penetrating hits though. They don't get stunned/shaken, they don't lose weapons, they don't get immobilized.

Do Gargantuan Creatures ignore the Concussive effect of Grav?

I don't think so, but they're all pretty much I1 anyway.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Super heavy vehicles ignore the incremental damage results from penetrating hits though. They don't get stunned/shaken, they don't lose weapons, they don't get immobilized.

Why would would an anti-personnel round have a chance of hurting Godzilla?

Not all sniper weapons are strictly anti-personnel. The TA for Skitarii, for example, is given Armourbane to represent the fact that it's firing a huge round and ripping clean through tanks and their crews.

It's a hard fix, but the biotitans do need a buff from what I've seen.

And that buff isn't just to flatout ignore their counter, grav weaponry. They already ignore Poisoned weapons and Sniper weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 winterwind85 wrote:
I played my Biotitan in the Last apoc Game.
Space Marine Player dropped a squad of 3 centurions with Pod next to him killing him Instantly with grav And missile Shooting in the Shooting Phase.
300 points Unit killing a 1000 Point Unit ... No way to avoid!!!!!

We Need a fix for grav And gargantuan creatures

Good luck that happening. The IoM would flip out if they couldn't drop pod and instantkill whatever they want anymore.

Let's remove Strength D from Eldar and see how they'd feel.

I'm completely fine with wraithguard and d-cannon batteries having their old rules.

As am I, and my second army is Eldar.

.

Those gaunts as a bubblewrap... yeehaw. Nobody fields any flamers, or thunderfire cannons, or the new whirlwind battery. They will surely protect the biotitan!

Sure, but it means they have to spend at least a couple turns doing that.

Bubble wrap is supposed to die. and if it needs different tools than the Biotitan thats even better.

This is why I have a Harridan.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Sure, but it means they have to spend at least a couple turns doing that.

Bubble wrap is supposed to die. and if it needs different tools than the Biotitan thats even better.

200 points of thunderfire cannons or whirlwinds definitely won't take two turns to blow a hole in gaunt bubblewrap.

Even with bubble wrapping grav is still going to wreck a biotitan, the thing is massive, so you will need to max out a gaunt unit, or bring multiple to adequately wrap it. What I would recommend is GW just remove grav from the game. It is just a extremely broken mechanic.

So is Bladestorm, Markerlights, Invisibility and Overwatch.

GMC is a better rule than SHW due to increased line of sight, no d3 extra wounds on an Explodes! (which is easier to get than Instant Death due to the amount of high strength low-ap ranged weapons compared to ID melee weapons), easier access to Cover saves, FNP and getting an armour save.

It doesn't help that the Wraithknight is one of, if not the most undercosted unit in the game.

The problem with bio-titans is the same as that of other huge models from GW: because they look awesome and really intimidating, they are given a really, really high price tag, but rarely get the rules to make them worth it. This is the case of the Lord of Skulls, for example.

Investing around 1000 points in a single model is rarely a good idea outside of Apocalypse/really large games, regardless of your faction. Eggs in one basket and all that..

Finally; everything has a hard counter. Drop Pod Skitarii with Haywire will decimate a titan or a Lord of Skulls, for example, just like Grav will decimate a biotitan. Eldar D-flamers with a WWP will decimate both. If you really want to protect your biotitan against grav, just buy a Void Shield Generator and it's immune to it (assuming he doesn't get within the VSG's shield area)

GrafWattenburg wrote:
GMC is a better rule than SHW due to increased line of sight, no d3 extra wounds on an Explodes! (which is easier to get than Instant Death due to the amount of high strength low-ap ranged weapons compared to ID melee weapons), easier access to Cover saves, FNP and getting an armour save.

Eh, poison and snipers effect GCs. And Wraithknights can be hurt by S5. My Obelisk is immune to anything S7 or lower, so.....


They both have strengths and weaknesses. I don't think either is outright better.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Super heavy vehicles ignore the incremental damage results from penetrating hits though. They don't get stunned/shaken, they don't lose weapons, they don't get immobilized.

Why would would an anti-personnel round have a chance of hurting Godzilla?

Not all sniper weapons are strictly anti-personnel. The TA for Skitarii, for example, is given Armourbane to represent the fact that it's firing a huge round and ripping clean through tanks and their crews.

It's a hard fix, but the biotitans do need a buff from what I've seen.

And that buff isn't just to flatout ignore their counter, grav weaponry. They already ignore Poisoned weapons and Sniper weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 winterwind85 wrote:
I played my Biotitan in the Last apoc Game.
Space Marine Player dropped a squad of 3 centurions with Pod next to him killing him Instantly with grav And missile Shooting in the Shooting Phase.
300 points Unit killing a 1000 Point Unit ... No way to avoid!!!!!

We Need a fix for grav And gargantuan creatures

Good luck that happening. The IoM would flip out if they couldn't drop pod and instantkill whatever they want anymore.

Let's remove Strength D from Eldar and see how they'd feel.

Perfectly fine and they should be reverted anyways. I would rather have 5 d-flamers slowly making their way down the board than to have 2 pods drop down and erase any unit they please, or just have them drop onto any needed objectives. Even if you put blades into serpents, once you kill the vehicle they are basically useless.

They don't flat-out ignore sniper weapons and poison weapons. 20 Kroot with sniper rounds will put 1.149 wounds on a wraithknight; a radium jezzail will put 0.3 wounds on it (meaning a full squadron of 6 will put almost 2 on it).

20 Hormagaunts with toxin sacs charging a wraithknight will do statistically 1.13 wounds. (.5 x .17 x .33 x .67 x 60 = 1.13)

oz of the north wrote:
Even with bubble wrapping grav is still going to wreck a biotitan, the thing is massive, so you will need to max out a gaunt unit, or bring multiple to adequately wrap it. What I would recommend is GW just remove grav from the game. It is just a extremely broken mechanic.

Well yeah. You have to adequately wrap a giant point investment. You wouldn't leave a Baneblade or Warhound by itself with no support. Big things like that are vulnerable to things exactly like deep striking Cents.

 Psienesis wrote:
So is Bladestorm, Markerlights, Invisibility and Overwatch.

Overwatch is not an inherently broken mechanic, just armies can gets boosts to it sometimes. Also bladestorm and markerlights can be broken, but they fill gaps that the armies have, such as tau only being BS 3 and not psyker to give them ability to ignore cover and bladestorm on eldar guardians that are paper thin.

Invisibility is broken no denying that, fully agree with that. But grav. is added to an army that does not need it. It does not fill a gap it just makes games not fun and makes IoM way too overpowered.

The IOM is supposed to be OP. They're the heroes of the setting. No one complains that Batman kicks truckloads of ass in the Arkham Knight games.

I used to think that a balanced game would make things better, but eventually I realized that GW has no interest in producing something like that, and hasn't for awhile. So I gave up wishing for the things that would never come to pass, and started looking at the tools that were available to create that balanced game...

If you want to make a Marines vs Tyranids fight "fair", you gotta Forge The Narrative harder. That means, if there's 2k points of SM on the table, better have 20k points of Tyranids.

XD

Explain Eldar.

I actually agree that Marines do not need Grav, which should have appeared as an AdMech weapon system rather than as the Marine go-to heavy weapon. In AdMech list, Grav makes sense, and normally can't be taken in large numbers without a pretty huge tax.

SJ

 Ashiraya wrote:
Explain Eldar.

Well, you see, in the days of yore, there was created a group of beings that were the best at everything all the time forever, and they were also very, very pretty. And almost immortal. Some of them were good, some of them were evil.

And they were very, very popular amongst everyone who mattered, and adorned many the "Race" line of a CRS, as well as appearing as badly-drawn dirty pictures in notebooks.

These were the Elves.

And when Warhammer rose up from the muddy swamps and feudal castles of Fantasy and took to the stars that was 40K, the Elves went, too, and became the Eldar.

And since they are Elves, and the best at everything all the time forever and also very, very pretty... well, you have Eldar.

The issue lies more with Bio-Titans being ridiculously overpriced relative to other GCs. Cut their price down quite a bit and leave Grav alone. Grav is good for basically ONE thing. Killing heavily armored stuff. It blows against stuff with bad armor saves. It isn't stellar against vehicles. It has bad range. It only works on a relentless platform. It costs as much or more than weapons that are much more versatile. Grav is fine, all non-Eldar GCs are overpriced(read: the Wraithknight is horribly underpriced).

Grav is the only viable answer to Monstrous Creatures. THEE ONLY ONE! Otherwise SM players only other option is to be your punching bag, a mere witness providing sacrifices to your super-awesome-cool godzilla. Im tired of people with riptides, wraith constructs, black mace DPs & smashfucker complaining about grav. And yes, smashfucker is basically a MC. You wanna play hero hammer? Well guess what? I dont. Grav. ::drop mic::

As to the eldar, if your unfamiliar with hard core, old school Tolkien fandom you'll never understand the elf love. Wayback in the day D&D people suffeted from it too. Its a weird, perverse love. Like hentai and/or mlp fans (i find them interchangeable).

 winterwind85 wrote:
I played my Biotitan in the Last apoc Game.
Space Marine Player dropped a squad of 3 centurions with Pod next to him killing him Instantly with grav And missile Shooting in the Shooting Phase.
300 points Unit killing a 1000 Point Unit ... No way to avoid!!!!!

We Need a fix for grav And gargantuan creatures

The SM player got lucky and you failed to support your hierophant properly in an apoc game. So you complain on the nets about how Biotitans are useless.

Where was the bubble wrap? The void shield generator? The shrouding from venomthropes/malanthropes? You can't possibly bring a biotitan to an apoc game and hope for it to survive without support. Or without such support why deploy it when there's drop pods in play? Come in from reserve and use its shooting.

But back to the luck thing.
Even without a cover save (which is foolish with access to malathropes and the silly GC rules which grant them one from terrain just like infantry) you should still only lose 5-6 wounds typically. Still a strong hit from a unit a third of is cost but not all that unheard of. Had you gotten its toe into some woods and had a malathrope nearby they would have mearly scratched you typically. Not to mention some bubble wrap to force them out into possibly being out of range due to scatter and such.

It also has a 6+ invuln save. For some reason nobody remembers that in the apocalypse battle reports I've seen.

Biggest issue with the biotitan is its guns are overcosted by about 20 points each. The biotitan is designed to beat up other titan level ranged combatants. It is initiative 6 with lashwhips and has a pretty big pile of attacks to deal with whatever it is slamming into. Grav sucks, but hard counters are like that.

(Also, if you wanted to see how to build your own biotitan, check out my updated vehicle and monstrous creature design rules linked in my sig)

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Super heavy vehicles ignore the incremental damage results from penetrating hits though. They don't get stunned/shaken, they don't lose weapons, they don't get immobilized.

MCs/GMCs don't suffer incremental damage by default as well.

 winterwind85 wrote:

But back to the luck thing.
Even without a cover save (which is foolish with access to malathropes and the silly GC rules which grant them one from terrain just like infantry) you should still only lose 5-6 wounds typically.

I would call it better luck that the other player didn't take out the malanthrope first... or is a T5 W4 3+ armor save creature that hard to kill nowadays?

Let me flip it around... If nids drop-podded turn 1 with 300-400 points worth of stuff, and blew up 3 Imperial Knights in that turns shooting, would that seem balanced?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I actually agree that Marines do not need Grav, which should have appeared as an AdMech weapon system rather than as the Marine go-to heavy weapon. In AdMech list, Grav makes sense, and normally can't be taken in large numbers without a pretty huge tax.

SJ

We need grav to kill GK faster.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The issue lies more with Bio-Titans being ridiculously overpriced relative to other GCs. Cut their price down quite a bit and leave Grav alone. Grav is good for basically ONE thing. Killing heavily armored stuff. It blows against stuff with bad armor saves. It isn't stellar against vehicles. It has bad range. It only works on a relentless platform. It costs as much or more than weapons that are much more versatile. Grav is fine, all non-Eldar GCs are overpriced(read: the Wraithknight is horribly underpriced).

Basically this.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 winterwind85 wrote:
I played my Biotitan in the Last apoc Game.
Space Marine Player dropped a squad of 3 centurions with Pod next to him killing him Instantly with grav And missile Shooting in the Shooting Phase.
300 points Unit killing a 1000 Point Unit ... No way to avoid!!!!!

We Need a fix for grav And gargantuan creatures

If you're playing strict rules as written since you're meta doesn't feel kindly about house rules (if it's the Hierophant you're talking about) take the Incubation Chamber upgrade and have a Venomthrope inside the Hierophant. Gives you Shrouded.

Then stick a single toe inside a piece of Ruins. Bam, 2+ cover! (make sure you negate perfect timing with all your Psychic Dice though )

Other than that, it's not make GC more survivable too Grav, it's reduce the amount of shots/number of platforms you can take it on that don't care for Salvo.

That's the solution.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
When are you ever not going to ignore its 2+ when you fire at a T9 model?

2+ is extremely overrated unless it's on a cheap MC like a riptide.

And the Hiero is not cheap.

It's GRAV WEAPONRY.

It's amazing against models with high armor saves, but trash against things with low armor saves.
So while Grav might slaughter that Hierophant, it's wounding Gaunts on a what now?

who even fields gaunts? your meta must be full of forge the narrative kind of players if they do.

so basicly you have a tool to help address the issue and refuse to consider using it? this is why I tend to roll my eyes at these kinda chicken little issues half of em amount to "OMG! THE GAME IS CHANGING AND I MIGHT HAVE TO ADAPT TO A NEW META! IT'S HORRIABLE!"

Allow me to explain what you did wrong:

1) No bubble wrap. Even a few Gaunt swarms loosely spread out will prevent droppods from being able to get close

2) No cover. You have a broken rule that grants you cover as though your 120 foot tall monstrosity was an infantry man. Use it.


As for Grav, well I see no issue with it atmo. I play IG and it is the one heavy weapon that I love facing. "I have grav, I wound on your armour save, whats your veterans save - 4+ isnt it" "Nope, 5+ - all my veterans have camo gear for that nice juicy grav ignoring cover save" "but but but this means my Grav cannons are usless and I should have brought heavy bolters" "Well thats your hard look isnt it"

*Dice roll. 4 Veterans are wounded. Only one fails his 3+ cover save*

"Imperial Guard are OP" "Really? Next time bring the right tools instead of relying on a one trick pony"

 master of ordinance wrote:
Allow me to explain what you did wrong:

1) No bubble wrap. Even a few Gaunt swarms loosely spread out will prevent droppods from being able to get close

2) No cover. You have a broken rule that grants you cover as though your 120 foot tall monstrosity was an infantry man. Use it.


As for Grav, well I see no issue with it atmo. I play IG and it is the one heavy weapon that I love facing. "I have grav, I wound on your armour save, whats your veterans save - 4+ isnt it" "Nope, 5+ - all my veterans have camo gear for that nice juicy grav ignoring cover save" "but but but this means my Grav cannons are usless and I should have brought heavy bolters" "Well thats your hard look isnt it"

*Dice roll. 4 Veterans are wounded. Only one fails his 3+ cover save*

"Imperial Guard are OP" "Really? Next time bring the right tools instead of relying on a one trick pony"

Yeah. Grav is only one weapon in the sea of bloody things avaliable, and also happens to be the only one that can reliably take out Bio-titans, and you complain about it? What would have happened if your Hierophant went agaisnt an army without Grav Guns, what are they going to do then?

Fluff aspect aside - heavy mass targets like bio-titans should be murdered by grav weapons - I do agree that crunchwise grav weapons need to be toned down against GMCs.

Against GMC's there is nothing in the game that puts out a comparable amount of damage for their cost as as grav weapons.
Grav has high rate of fire, decent range (it certainly isn't effected by bubble wrapping as much as meltas are), totally ignores toughness and has a great AP value.
Salvo is not a drawback when the weapons come on relentless models.

That said, grav is my go to weapon to deal with Wraithknight TFG's. Nothing I have comes close to being as an effective counter to WK's as this.

This tells me 2 things: 1) Gravguns are too powerful vs GMC's. 2) Wraithknights are too powerful vs almost everything else which is not a gravgun.
Some kind of balance is needed.

With regards to the OP, the Hierophant was priced up in a rather conservative nature. Compare it to the new WK to get an idea of how different the units you can receive for your points are.
Saying you lost a 1000 point unit to a 300 point unit is true....but is the hierophant really worth that much in today's meta?

Martel732 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I actually agree that Marines do not need Grav, which should have appeared as an AdMech weapon system rather than as the Marine go-to heavy weapon. In AdMech list, Grav makes sense, and normally can't be taken in large numbers without a pretty huge tax.

SJ

We need grav to kill GK faster.

No need to hate, we're the ones that tote your Teletubbies around. /wink

SJ

BA don't have teletubbies. In fact, WE'RE the ones that tote around the AdMech.

 Bodacious2182 wrote:

 winterwind85 wrote:
... No way to avoid!!!!!

That isn't true at all. There is castling and bubble wrap. Gaunts are probably the cheapest bubble wrap in the game.

If your opponent has pods of any kind I say it is your fault for using poor tactics and not considering threat.

I dont Know, but a plant is big, i Kran realy realy big...
Grav canons Are 24' Range, i Cant Cover an, taking in the size of he phant 60 inch Radius of the board with gants.
Also the phant Cant charge then

You don't have to cover the entire area.

You can leave a few inches between the Biotitan and the gaunts. and you only need to cover most of the distance.

Which will leave a very narrow window where he can plant his Gravcents. And given scatter he has a limited area to where he can scatter and still hit you.

BrianDavion wrote:

stopcallingmechief wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
When are you ever not going to ignore its 2+ when you fire at a T9 model?

2+ is extremely overrated unless it's on a cheap MC like a riptide.

And the Hiero is not cheap.

It's GRAV WEAPONRY.

It's amazing against models with high armor saves, but trash against things with low armor saves.
So while Grav might slaughter that Hierophant, it's wounding Gaunts on a what now?

who even fields gaunts? your meta must be full of forge the narrative kind of players if they do.

so basicly you have a tool to help address the issue and refuse to consider using it? this is why I tend to roll my eyes at these kinda chicken little issues half of em amount to "OMG! THE GAME IS CHANGING AND I MIGHT HAVE TO ADAPT TO A NEW META! IT'S HORRIABLE!"

.

You gonna take 500 points in guants to provide a 24' diameter around your titan? Gl with that.

Don't forget you have to invest in some synapse (so the gaunts can move) and some cover save providers (so the gaunts aren't worthless bubblewrap)

This is what all titans have to do to survive... right?

/s

You don't need to do 24", only about 18".

Have a 4" lane between the gaunts and the titan.

This leaves only a 1" window in which their models can stand and be within 24" on the Titan.

I haven't read the whole thread so I'm sorry if somebody has adressed this:
Bubble wrap against a 24" weapon on a relentless platform that can be podded in anywhere? What are a load of you smoking?
Pi x R x R... 3.14... x 24 x 24 = 1810 inches squared... WHO OWNS THAT MANY GAUNTS? (I should say who plays that many gaunts as we all know the old tervigon farm back in mid 6th meant that most nid players actually DID own that many gaunts).
And thats the area if the biotitan was the size of an atom. It is actually far, far greater when you include the actual base size of the bio titan!
On a more constructive note - Frozecrones idea mentioned earlier on about a venomthrope in the sac and toe in cover seems the best bet.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread so I'm sorry if somebody has adressed this:
Bubble wrap against a 24" weapon on a relentless platform that can be podded in anywhere? What are a load of you smoking?
Pi x R x R... 3.14... x 24 x 24 = 1810 inches squared... WHO OWNS THAT MANY GAUNTS? (I should say who plays that many gaunts as we all know the old tervigon farm back in mid 6th meant that most nid players actually DID own that many gaunts).
And thats the area if the biotitan was the size of an atom. It is actually far, far greater when you include the actual base size of the bio titan!
On a more constructive note - Frozecrones idea mentioned earlier on about a venomthrope in the sac and toe in cover seems the best bet.

You don't actually need to have bubble wrap within the area the biotitan occupies...

You can bubble wrap a biotitan to give it a cover save (which would work well if you combine it with a malenthrope).

However, anybody thinking that they can completely prevent a gravsquad from dropping in and firing off a volley is fooling themselves.
A squad firing at full potential out to 24 inches arriving by deepstrike/drop pod is, barring unlucky scatter rolls, almost impossible to stop.

The only reason bubble wrapping works well with vehicles/super heavies is that the most dangerous weapons are meltas, which need to get within 6 inches.

You don't actually need to have bubble wrap within the area the biotitan occupies...

You can be pedantic and argue his maths, but his point is completely valid.

Rihgu wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread so I'm sorry if somebody has adressed this:
Bubble wrap against a 24" weapon on a relentless platform that can be podded in anywhere? What are a load of you smoking?
Pi x R x R... 3.14... x 24 x 24 = 1810 inches squared... WHO OWNS THAT MANY GAUNTS? (I should say who plays that many gaunts as we all know the old tervigon farm back in mid 6th meant that most nid players actually DID own that many gaunts).
And thats the area if the biotitan was the size of an atom. It is actually far, far greater when you include the actual base size of the bio titan!
On a more constructive note - Frozecrones idea mentioned earlier on about a venomthrope in the sac and toe in cover seems the best bet.

You don't actually need to have bubble wrap within the area the biotitan occupies...

No you don't, but it still increases the area. Lets say it is 10" across, so has a radius of 5".
3.14 x 29 x 29 - 3.14 x 5 x 5 = 2564 inches squared. This is because the area is increasing exponentially due to the squared so the bigger the base the bigger the area you need to cover even though you take that base area out. Teaching maths is literally my job.

But if you stick it in a corner that quarters the size of your bubble wrap needs. So just make your enormous super uber creature cower in the corner.

Thats obviously not the answer, but sending it up a flank isn't a bad idea. You only have to bubble wrap half the area, plus your opponent will risk losing his pods off the board edge(they don't ignore that)

Another option is of course to put one claw in some ruins for a 2+ cover save. It's not perfect, but between the 2+ cover/5+ FNP you should be able to endure a turn. Then you murder those Centurions.

The flanking idea is probably the best idea though; hug one edge, bubble wrap as much as possible (you can even Infiltrate units up ahead to further deny space...) and then respond accordingly. Fortunately, a Hierophant is fast enough to make an impact even if it does have to cross most of the board.

The need to bubble wrap just raises the cost of your already terribly-overpriced model to absurd proportions.

Didn't we just establish you don't need to bubble wrap? Just get a 2+ cover save as mentioned above. I wish I could get 2+ cover on my vehicles.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Thats obviously not the answer, but sending it up a flank isn't a bad idea. You only have to bubble wrap half the area, plus your opponent will risk losing his pods off the board edge(they don't ignore that)

Was meant in jest. The idea of an super expensive, supposedly super killy death machine hiding in a corner all game with a bunch of minions protecting it is humerous to me.

Hugging Cover with a Model that excels in CC? I dont know...gonna Post a picture of my try to bubblewrap the titan

As far as I'm concerned the bio titan got roflpwned by its hard counter. Sucks to be you. But this happens ALL THE TIME in apoc. I've seen reaver Titans get dropped by entropic strike scarabs before they got nerfed. A thunder hawk full of hq get shot down by 200pts of AA. Guns. The game is full of big impressive high cost super units getting fed thier kneecaps by a cheap suicide counter unit.

Deal with it.

Or learn to make an army that dosent rely on said super unit running the table. Maybe balance out the list so if you lose that big super unit its not game over. Whining about it on forum won't change a thing.

 DarthSpader wrote:
As far as I'm concerned the bio titan got roflpwned by its hard counter. Sucks to be you. But this happens ALL THE TIME in apoc. I've seen reaver Titans get dropped by entropic strike scarabs before they got nerfed. A thunder hawk full of hq get shot down by 200pts of AA. Guns. The game is full of big impressive high cost super units getting fed thier kneecaps by a cheap suicide counter unit.

Deal with it.

Or learn to make an army that dosent rely on said super unit running the table. Maybe balance out the list so if you lose that big super unit its not game over. Whining about it on forum won't change a thing.

That's one way of looking at it. For me it seems uncinematic for the massive bug to die to one small unit's one round of shooting. It should play out so that over multiple rounds several units pour fire into it while it rampages through multiple units until finally some plucky hero puts it down for good. I'm not a tyranid player (used to play Eldar before the wraithnight which I despise) and I don't like titans in standard 40k (they should be reserved for apocalypse in my opinion) so I don't have a dog in this hunt.

*Edit, bad grammar.

The other thing to consider is that yea a 300 pt unit kills a Titan. But that same unit can be wiped out and made useless by 90pts of gaunts charging them. Trade offs everywhere.

If they kill the titan when they deep strike so what if they are tied up the rest of the game. They've already done more than their share. Can't counter before they do their thing.

I feel like outside D weapons, grav is possibly the most OP weaponry in the game. There is very little in the game that isn't worried about it, and those things have easy counters in that virtually everything else kills them with ease. a unit or 2 of Grav cents is more than enough to deal with basically any tough high armour target your opponent may have. Meanwhile, you still have Tac marines, devestators, bikes, etc. to deal with chaffier units. The amount of utility grav gives you is insane, and most things that you would put it on has SaP or Relentless anyways, so salvo is a moot point.

There is very little in the game that isn't worried about it,

Except everything with a poor Armor Save or that relies on a Cover Save in general.

Grav is *designed* to kill vehicles, GMCs and other huge things like that. The plaforms Grav comes on, however, can be devoured by things costing 1/3rd their points. That's kind of the balance there. Grav is a fairly one-trick pony.

 Psienesis wrote:

There is very little in the game that isn't worried about it,

Except everything with a poor Armor Save or that relies on a Cover Save in general.

Grav is *designed* to kill vehicles, GMCs and other huge things like that. The plaforms Grav comes on, however, can be devoured by things costing 1/3rd their points. That's kind of the balance there. Grav is a fairly one-trick pony.

Even things with a 5+ save are going to take serious casualties from a unit pumping out 15 shots that get to re-roll wounds. Not sure about your meta, but in mine, the norm is to put a divination librarian in with them for some ignores cover and/or prescience as well. It gets pretty out of hand pretty fast.

Also, why bother with plasma when Grav can do what it does with no risk of overheating? When you factor in drop pods, the salvo range becomes far less of a factor, as you can pretty much end up in range of what you want to shoot with no risk, so why bother shooting plasma guns, when Grav guns are better a good 80% of the time? Personally, I just think it's a poorly balanced mechanic that invalidates a huge amount of units, almost all of which pay a premium for aspects that are simply nullified (or sometimes work against them). Maybe its just my meta, or just the armies I play (all but orks have generally at least a 4+ save), or maybe its the fact that Grav's only weakness is mitigated by the fact that you still have an army's worth of small arms fire that makes up for it (or in the case of centurions, hurricane bolters or frag missiles that can put a good dent in low save stuff). Whatever the reason, I've found that grav is extremely powerful in most situations, and the fact that you see it so frequently seems to back up my sentiments.

Well then the only fix to the issue is for gw to say "oh turds! A guy had his 1000pt tyranid titan killed by 300 pts of grav space marines. This will not do! From now on all tyranid Titans have a 2+ rerollable invun save against everything. That should fix the problem!"

In fact - why not just make everything have that 2++ this way nothing is op against anything. And no one whines.

Or you could just accept the fact this is a game. It's got a lot of rock paper scissors stuff - and your rock just got papered. Next time maybe bring scissors?

Jus sayin.

Even things with a 5+ save are going to take serious casualties from a unit pumping out 15 shots that get to re-roll wounds. Not sure about your meta, but in mine, the norm is to put a divination librarian in with them for some ignores cover and/or prescience as well. It gets pretty out of hand pretty fast.

And then you return 45 shots from that IG blob or horde o' Boyz back onto the 5 guys with the Grav Guns. Bury them under weight of fire, because they *will* fail those saves.

 Psienesis wrote:

Even things with a 5+ save are going to take serious casualties from a unit pumping out 15 shots that get to re-roll wounds. Not sure about your meta, but in mine, the norm is to put a divination librarian in with them for some ignores cover and/or prescience as well. It gets pretty out of hand pretty fast.

And then you return 45 shots from that IG blob or horde o' Boyz back onto the 5 guys with the Grav Guns. Bury them under weight of fire, because they *will* fail those saves.

And those guardsmen are still going to come out worse.

Grav Cents shoot

Grav - 15 * ([4/6 * 2/6] + [4/6 * 4/6 * 2/6]) * 2/6 = 1.8 dead 3+ cover save guardsmen
Huricane bolters - 9 * (4/6 + [2/6 * 4/6]) * 4/6 * 2/6 = 1.77 dead 3+ cover save guardsmen

And we see that even here, grav is better than twin linked bolters vs 5+ armour dudes.

Guardsmen return fire with your 45 shots

Lasguns - 45 * 3/6 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 0.65 wounds, you've mildly inconvinienced 1 centurion, maybe, who is still alive.

I see the thread title and I feel like someone from the DoW games should be shouting it.

Can we meme this? I can just see Big Grin Hive Tyrant done up like aggressive Wolf...

... Someone should meme this...

It is apocalypse, bring it back with a strategic asset, resurect it with the tyranid specific one later, or have it off the board and come in after the first break after the droppod come down because the drop pod assault rule overrides the apocalypse reserves rule and half have to come in. Your failure was definitively a tactical one and in no way should be blamed on the opponents weapon system.

The biotitan is 90 points overcosted, because they price the biocannons at 165 points when they are more comparable to 120 weapons at bs3 from other races. At least, that's how my math works it out to.

Put the Hierophant in reserves. Turn 1 the Drop Pod lands, disgorges grav death and murders something, then you walk your Hierophant on, shoot the Centurions and watch them die to Instant Death from S10.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Put the Hierophant in reserves. Turn 1 the Drop Pod lands, disgorges grav death and murders something, then you walk your Hierophant on, shoot the Centurions and watch them die to Instant Death from S10.

So waste an entire turn with your 1000 pt beast. Not a terrible strategy, but it makes that 1000 pt cost even more ridiculous.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Put the Hierophant in reserves. Turn 1 the Drop Pod lands, disgorges grav death and murders something, then you walk your Hierophant on, shoot the Centurions and watch them die to Instant Death from S10.

So waste an entire turn with your 1000 pt beast. Not a terrible strategy, but it makes that 1000 pt cost even more ridiculous.

Well, if the options were to "waste one turn" or "waste 4+ turns. because it's dead.", I think I know which one I would go with.

 Ashiraya wrote:
So, Grey Templar, since grav is perfectly fine and other things just won't do it against 'phants, does that mean I can't kill the 'phant as a CSM player? I have no grav, after all.

Here is my way to deal with knights and other extremely awful things the other races can throw at us.

1. Ally with some Renegades and heretics
2. Choose the ordinance tyrant spec
3. Bring 100 mutants for each titan (knight or otherwise, this is only 300 points so you will be cost effective)
4. Bring medusas with breacher shells
4. Equip each squad of mutants with a chaos sigil and enjoy its stupidity
5. Engage in melee
6. Laugh as your mutants tie up the titan and your medusas fire into the melee with breacher shells destroying the titan

Rihgu wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Put the Hierophant in reserves. Turn 1 the Drop Pod lands, disgorges grav death and murders something, then you walk your Hierophant on, shoot the Centurions and watch them die to Instant Death from S10.

So waste an entire turn with your 1000 pt beast. Not a terrible strategy, but it makes that 1000 pt cost even more ridiculous.

Well, if the options were to "waste one turn" or "waste 4+ turns. because it's dead.", I think I know which one I would go with.

Isn't that also assuming your opponent still drops the gravs on the 1st turn if you choose not to keep your heirophant in reserve? If your opponent knows you're keeping 1000pts worth of giant killy thing in reserve, I imagine they'd be more careful with their thingo that kills giant killy things.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Put the Hierophant in reserves. Turn 1 the Drop Pod lands, disgorges grav death and murders something, then you walk your Hierophant on, shoot the Centurions and watch them die to Instant Death from S10.

So waste an entire turn with your 1000 pt beast. Not a terrible strategy, but it makes that 1000 pt cost even more ridiculous.

Well, if the options were to "waste one turn" or "waste 4+ turns. because it's dead.", I think I know which one I would go with.

Isn't that also assuming your opponent still drops the gravs on the 1st turn if you choose not to keep your heirophant in reserve? If your opponent knows you're keeping 1000pts worth of giant killy thing in reserve, I imagine they'd be more careful with their thingo that kills giant killy things.

You're still forcing your opponent to be reactionary, which is a good thing. You're the one setting the pace of the game. Your 1000pt killy thing is guaranteed at least one turn of killing stuff before they can drop in and ruin your day, and when they do kill it, you've dictated the board position.

The problem of the Bio-Titans is that they are incredibly overpriced, they should cost like half of what they do.

Rihgu wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Put the Hierophant in reserves. Turn 1 the Drop Pod lands, disgorges grav death and murders something, then you walk your Hierophant on, shoot the Centurions and watch them die to Instant Death from S10.

So waste an entire turn with your 1000 pt beast. Not a terrible strategy, but it makes that 1000 pt cost even more ridiculous.

Well, if the options were to "waste one turn" or "waste 4+ turns. because it's dead.", I think I know which one I would go with.

Isn't that also assuming your opponent still drops the gravs on the 1st turn if you choose not to keep your heirophant in reserve? If your opponent knows you're keeping 1000pts worth of giant killy thing in reserve, I imagine they'd be more careful with their thingo that kills giant killy things.

You're still forcing your opponent to be reactionary, which is a good thing. You're the one setting the pace of the game. Your 1000pt killy thing is guaranteed at least one turn of killing stuff before they can drop in and ruin your day, and when they do kill it, you've dictated the board position.

But you've used a 1000pt model to dictate the moves of a unit that cost significantly less. That's not really a win for the 1000pt model, that's a win for the few hundreds points of models that forced you to reserve your 1000pt model and still has a good chance of killing it in short order.

This thread is an example of people who don't understand strategy. Everyone understands the relative points-cost of the units involved in the scenario, but there's really not anything one can do about that except agree, within your local group, to adjust those points.

That said, there's plenty of options listed here for ways around getting Grav-Cented to death as soon as the model appears on the table. Take 'em or leave 'em, that's your choice, but those are pretty much the options you have with the rules written as they are.

Home-brew and house rules, of course, can open other options, but those are not really feasible for Tournament or PUG play.