I'm writing some fanfiction stuff and it's in a situation where the Ecclisirchy discover that an Inquisitor might not be all that loyal. My question is to what extent would the Ecclisiarchy be able to take action? Could they directly arrest the Inquisitor? Could they order the Inquisition to arrest this Inqusiitor? Would they just be told to shut up and get over it?

Inquisition above all save the high Lord's of terra. Ordo herecticus policies the inquisition, not the Ecclisarchy. In fact, it was created specifically because the high lord Vandare (Ya the reign of blood Vandare), was the high lord of the ecclisarchy and amassed to much power. The Inquisition answers to none save the god emperor and his proxies the high Lord's of terra.

Inquisitors answer only to the emperor in theory so them technically, however the ecclesiarchys big wigs are so powerful they'd have to be careful around them.

Imperium has a very poorly defined hierarchy in practice and there are always many competing interests that vie for power. The adeptus terra, ecclesiarchy, inquisition, and mechanics are the big ones with the space Marines kind of drifting in orbit around them

The Inquisition is more powerful, in theory, but a lone Inquisitor should still walk pretty softly around powerful people like Cardinals. I recall Eisenhorn having a personal vendetta with some priest accusing him of heresy and there seemed to be nothing legal he could do against the guy. Cutting him down in the middle of a Cathedral probably didn't make the Ecclesiarchy any happier about it.

In theory? An Inquisitor's word is law to all save the emperor.

In practice? A powerful figure in the ecclesiarchy could probably disappear even an inquisitor, especially given the strong connection between Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy.

The Ecclesiarchy have their own police/investigative force who won't hesitate to test the loyalty of an Inquisitor if given reason to doubt- the Adepta Sororitas.

Some priests take this duty on themselves as well, calling themselves Witch-Finders, although they have no formal training or authority.

The Inquistion is a massive secret police organization with no real oversight and virtually unlimited resources. They can get away with destroying entire planets if they can come up with a good enough reason and their have been numerous cases where they cause massive sector wide disasters for bizarre personal beliefs or benefits. Inquisitors fall to Chaos, go rogue or just go insane on a fairly regular basis which is part of the reason why the sororitas exist at all. Infighting between inquisitors is so common they made an entire game around it!

The Ecclesiarchy is a barely connected series of smaller cults and religions with the same basic ideas but often totally different beliefs. Take every variation of Abrahamic religion, slap it together under the control of the Vatican and then multiply it in size and power by ten. That's still not as huge, influential or conflicted as the Ecclesiarchy. Keep in mind the Ecclesiarchy isn't even a part of the Emperor's plan, they just put themselves in power. This is partially why the Administratum and the Mechanicum regard them as a rival or a waste of resources.

They can launch crusades but these, like the actual crusades, are usually terribly planned, composed mostly of unhinged and untrained penitents and generally cause more problems. Starting a crusade is like throwing a chunk of raw and bleeding stake into shark infested water. The meat is going to get eaten but you can't really control the sharks at all. They might actually start attacking each other (see 4th crusade for a real world example).

One of the Imperial saints in the 6th ed BRB found a handful of SM chapters "wanting" and sent them on a pointless and costly penitence crusade into the Eye of Terror. One of the Chapter Masters was so angry when he got back he just shoved every relic and worshiper of the saint onto a starship which was then shot into a sun/warp rift and personally excommunicated the saint. The justification was that he was corrupted by Chaos but the book gives no backing for that and its more likely he just found these chapters "wanting" an action that hurt the Imperium in the long run.

Honestly each branch of the adeptus Terra is so labyrinthine and poorly regulated that its hard to say which one is the most powerful. They all sort of cancel each other out in the end.

The inquisition has more power, but one shouldn't underestimate what the ecclesiarchy can do

In theory, an Inquisitor still has higher authority because every single other subfaction of the Imperium is supposed to obey anyone who flashes the Inquisitorial seal and give any resources and assistance requested to the Inquisitor. The only one who can overrule that is another Inquisitor.

In actuality, it can work out quite differently. An Inquisitor is just one person, after all, usually not native to the world he or she is working on, and generally operates alone or has only a small retinue at beck and call. The Eccesiarchy in any given area should have large numbers of the faithful masses that are loyal to it. More people on a world might feel loyal to an Ecclesiarchy member, and trust an Eccesiarchy member to represent the Emperor, than they would trust an Inquisitor.

If an Eccesiarchy member suspects an Inquisitor of treachery, any actions taken against said Inquisitor would have to be strictly off the books. The Ecclesiarchy isn't supposed to police the Inquisition, it's supposed to be the other way around. Which could make your story more interesting. If the Inquisitor really is a bad guy, he'd be the equivalent of the movie villain with diplomatic immunity.

If the priest is powerful/smart enough, he would be able to alert another member(s) of the Inquisition of the rogue Inquisitor's heresy, and then he would be like wolves circling a wounded moose; intent on the kill. Another Inquisitor likely wouldn't even need much incentive to take down the Heretic; the prestige boost from taking down a rogue Inquisitor would allow the one who does the taking down to gain significant power and influence.

Of course, this all depends on how powerful the Heretical Inquisitor is. If it's, say, an Inquisitor Lord, it might take dozens of other Inquisitors to bring him to trial and present enough evidence to convict him - let alone kill the Heretic after convicting. This would also depend on the influence and power of the Inquisitors that the priest could muster, as, should he get an Inquisitor Lord to take on a middling fellow, then the whole process would be quick and painful.

tl;dr: Just get another Inquisitor to do it for the priest

There's also the point that the Ecclesiarchy embodies the very faith and belief that unites and structures the entire imperium, if they so chose to move against the inquisition all they would need to do is have their zealots have every follower of the imperial cult on every world especially the myriad shrine worlds and they would have a standing army larger than the imperial guard, hell they'd likely get the imperial guard for that matter.

And considering the Space Marine's attitude toward the inquisition I doubt they'd help either side in that one and rather would simply protect their own.

A lone Inquisitor, in theory, has more authority than the entire Ecclesiarchy combined.

But like everything, it comes down to politics. Both the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy are mired in politics. So if the Ecclesiarchy wanted to remove a certain inquisitor for whatever reason they would only need to find other Inqusitors who might be enemies or simply members of the Ordo Hereticus and bring them their suspicions.

The Ecclesiarchy wouldn't be able to do much openly. They couldn't arrest the Inqusitor unless he did something so blatantly anti-Imperium, or they'd risk the wrath of the rest of the Inquisition. They would be massive inquiries, committees would be formed, etc... It would be a longass mess of paperwork and bureaucracy.

Of course, the Ecclesiarchy might just skip that and go for assassination.

This is my own structure for keeping the hierarchy straight and is not necessarily backed up by official fluff. I think of the priests/missionaries as the public outreach arm of the Ecclesiarchy, while the Adepta Sororitas serve as the police. The Inquisition is a mix of detectives and internal affairs. The AS will serve to protect humanity from the evils of the universe (heretic, xeno, warped, or mutant.) However, an inquisitor will draw on any force available (PDF, SM, or AS) once they have declared a heresy. These forces may resist the Inquisitor, but know they risk being declared heretical in turn.

Witch hunter tyrus believes his authority higher than the inquisition, this doesn't end well for him.

They have unlimited power, however in practice a inquisitor has to rtead carefully at times, one cannot threaten some groups without risk and threats and force may yield sub par results vs careful diplomacy and tact.

In regard to question, I'd imagine any high ranking cardinal etc will have gained a few contacts and likely inform a inquisitor who they knew and give a Allie a prestige boost, and if successful be allied to a increasingly powerful potential lord or local sector head

40k universe, life, death and great power all hinge on whoyou know,

CleansingFire wrote:
This is my own structure for keeping the hierarchy straight and is not necessarily backed up by official fluff. I think of the priests/missionaries as the public outreach arm of the Ecclesiarchy, while the Adepta Sororitas serve as the police. The Inquisition is a mix of detectives and internal affairs. The AS will serve to protect humanity from the evils of the universe (heretic, xeno, warped, or mutant.) However, an inquisitor will draw on any force available (PDF, SM, or AS) once they have declared a heresy. These forces may resist the Inquisitor, but know they risk being declared heretical in turn.

Previously, the Sisterhood was the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Heretics, expressly designed to police and monitor the Ecclesiarchy for signs of another Vandire, and to cull any members of the Ecclesiarchy who were overstepping their bounds.

I guess it also depends on how the Creed of the Ecclesiarchy is understood:
- is the Emperor a god (i.s super-human) or
- is the Emperor an ascended human (first of humanity)

The Wordbearers were censured for preaching the Emperor as god, and this was the path Vandire was following (to his own benefit of course). Perhaps that was the lesson the original six learned.

Original fluff (IIRC) had the Sisterhood purging humanity of mutation, and the SM were considered borderline only because they were developed by the Emperor.

The Sisters believe, wholeheartedly, in the divinity of the God-Emperor. To believe otherwise is heresy.

The Sisters and the Arbites still perform "purity sweeps" through population centers, it's part of what the Ordo Hospitaler is for, though this is not their sole role (and is, also, not reserved to them alone).

It bears noting that the Adepta Sororitas and the Sisters of Battle are not the same thing. While all Sisters of Battle are members of the Adepta Sororitas, the Adepta also encompasses Orders non-Militant, such as the Hospitaler, Dialogous, Famulous, etc. The "true" Sisters of Battle are those that belong to an Order Militant.

Agreed, the Sisters of Battle are but a small faction within the AS.

Early writings listed the Inquisition independent of the Adeptus Ministorum. While the Ministorum was sanctioned against maintaining "men at arms" the Inquisition was not. The "muscle" of the Inquisition were the Grey Knights.

An Inquisitor has higher authority, but the Ecclessiarchy commands far more power. It is one of the, if not the most, powerful institutions of the Imperium. Unlike the Ecclessiarcy, the Inquisition is not an organised institution. (you never deal with 'the Inquisition', you deal with an individual Inquisitor and his retinue)
In any case, the Ecclessiarchy is powerful enough to take action against any Inquisitor itself, but they could also contact another Inquisitor and have him conduct an investigation. I think this second option is the more likely one, because that way they are not getting involved in possible conflict.

The Ordo Hereticus was retconned in during third edition as the Adeptus Terra's answer to the Reign of Blood.

Thor created the Adepta Sororitas as the Ecclesiarchy's army slash internal affairs unit.

The retcon then said that the Administratum decided that wasn't enough and created the Ordo Hereticus to watch over the Ecclesiarchy as well, and gave them authority over the Sororitas.

The second retcon then gave the Adepta Sororitas their independence back and relegated 'chamber militant' to 'retain close alliances'.

As for Tyrus, Eisenhorn never arrested him, never brought him to justice. He killed him in a street brawl while no-one was watching.

Is the inquisition above the Officio Assassinorum?

 Mantorok wrote:
Is the inquisition above the Officio Assassinorum?

Yes, and the Ordo Sicarius task themselves with monitoring over the Officio Assassinorum. Officially any assassination order is meant to come directly from the High Lords of Terra themselves, but in practice the orders are now relayed through Ordo Sicarius Inquisitors. This was another thing that happened after the Age of Apostasy, in response to the rampant corruption that Vandire spread through the Assassin Temples.

 GoonBandito wrote:

 Mantorok wrote:
Is the inquisition above the Officio Assassinorum?

Yes, and the Ordo Sicarius task themselves with monitoring over the Officio Assassinorum. Officially any assassination order is meant to come directly from the High Lords of Terra themselves, but in practice the orders are now relayed through Ordo Sicarius Inquisitors. This was another thing that happened after the Age of Apostasy, in response to the rampant corruption that Vandire spread through the Assassin Temples.

How? Aren't the Assassins some of the greatest killers the imperium can offer?
Is the Ordo Sicarus comprised of members of the Assassins? Or some weird equivalent?

The Ordo Sicarius seeds operatives throughout the Assassin Temples in order to watch over things in secret. It's probably implied that Ordo Sicarius Inquisitors are ones that have skill-sets aligned with the Assassin Temples anyway. It goes without mention that the Ordo Sicarius are one of the far more secretive Ordos of the Inquisition, given the nature of the Offico Assassinorum.

And yes Imperial Assassins are some of the greatest killers in the galaxy, and its for that very reason that the Inquisition, through the Ordo Sicarius, keep a very close eye on them. Especially so ever since Vandire's corrupt reign of the Imperium during the Age of Apostasy.

The Ordo Sicarius are Inquisitors, not assassins.

Their job is to make sure that the Officio only sends assassins to perform tasks ordered by the High Lords. It's also implied that occasionally they have the Assassin temples kill someone and get it approved "retroactively in advance", which is probably what happens when an assassin gets deployed to a warzone or attached to an inquisitor's retinue without a clear-cut target (i.e. what you generally see on the tabletop)

They also provide a support structure - because the Inquisition has bases, starships, etc, and people to manage them - through which the one-man-armies of the Officio can be put in the field on the other side of the galaxy.


The comments above are broadly correct. Legally speaking, an inquisitor's authority is absolute.

In practical terms, however, any 'Peer Of The Imperium' has absolute authority within a specific sphere and it largely comes down to politics and what forces you actually have available and your relationship with them. If a Cardinal-Astral and an Inquisitor are both pointing fingers at the other and yelling "Heretic!", there's a pretty good chance of a Black Templar siding with the man with the aquila round his neck.

'Directly arresting' - it depends. After all, if the Inquisitor hasn't declared his identity and is acting in secret..... it's not unreasonable for a kill-team to purge a heretic cult and find out after the fact that one of the casualties was an acolyte of the inquisition who'd infiltrated the cult in order to track it back to its masters. This would certainly justify a polite letter of apology but probably no real repercussions for the senior ecclesiarchal hierarchy, after all, how were they supposed to know?

Equally, the ecclesiarchy is one of the richest and most influential bodies in the Imperium - cardinals-astral (the Ecclesiarchal version of Peer of the Imperium) have the wealth of dioceses of worlds at their disposal, and having someone quietly murdered is perfectly feasible.

 Mantorok wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:

 Mantorok wrote:
Is the inquisition above the Officio Assassinorum?

Yes, and the Ordo Sicarius task themselves with monitoring over the Officio Assassinorum. Officially any assassination order is meant to come directly from the High Lords of Terra themselves, but in practice the orders are now relayed through Ordo Sicarius Inquisitors. This was another thing that happened after the Age of Apostasy, in response to the rampant corruption that Vandire spread through the Assassin Temples.

How? Aren't the Assassins some of the greatest killers the imperium can offer?
Is the Ordo Sicarus comprised of members of the Assassins? Or some weird equivalent?

Because at the end of the Heresy, prior to his internment in the Golden Throne, the Emperor handed some people a black "I" with three crossbars and said, "These people act at my will, and with my authority, to do what needs to be done to ensure my Imperium survives. Thou shalt not feth with my Inquisition."

And that is how the Inquisition came to be, going from "not appearing in this setting" to "More Authority than Thou" to everyone.

There are 'apparently' inquisitor assassins also. As in, assassins in the temples that also have the role of an inquisitor in some respect. Though they are only there to monitor the temples and it's operatives, and the other operatives are meant to have no idea about their dual role. As you can imagine, these guys or gals are rare, very rare.

 Mantorok wrote:
Is the inquisition above the Officio Assassinorum?

Doubtful. The leader of the Assassins is one of the High Lords. While in theory even the High Lords must answer to the Inquisition, in practice the High Lords are so powerful the Inquisition can't touch them.
The Inquisition does police the Offcio Assassinorum of course and normally this does not give any problems as everyone believes in the good of the Inquisition's work, but should a case arise against the will of the Grand Master of Assassins, then the Inquisition would probably have to drop it.
Imperial politics are not a simple case of X is above Y, it is all a matter of relative power rather than law.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Mantorok wrote:
Is the inquisition above the Officio Assassinorum?

Doubtful. The leader of the Assassins is one of the High Lords. While in theory even the High Lords must answer to the Inquisition, in practice the High Lords are so powerful the Inquisition can't touch them.
The Inquisition does police the Offcio Assassinorum of course and normally this does not give any problems as everyone believes in the good of the Inquisition's work, but should a case arise against the will of the Grand Master of Assassins, then the Inquisition would probably have to drop it.
Imperial politics are not a simple case of X is above Y, it is all a matter of relative power rather than law.

An Inquisitor is always on the council of the high lords also.

Anyway, in response to the original poster, it depends in what situation and location of the imperium (or outside it) you find yourself in. Both factions have an aloof attitude and generaly will try and do what they want, whenever they want to do it, it just depends which faction tends to have the most influence in that given place, at that given time that will depend.

Officially, it would be the inquisition, as their MO enables them to actually be able to assemble armies for wars and crusades including support from the navy, which the Ecclesiarchy shouldn't be able to do. In reality, an influential/powerful/megalomaniacal member of the Ecclesiarchy can persuade, bribe or intimidate their way to exactly the same thing.

Thanks for the comments everyone! Very interesting stuff

The ecclesiastical forces have there own inquisition, these people believe they have the same authority as the inquisition in ecclesiastical matters, and others, this has led to several "wars" between the inquisition forces (note: not the entire inquisition) and the faction within the ecclesiarchy. It's discussed in the eisenhorn series, as stated before, this ended badly for a particular witch finder.

Sort of, but not really. The Ecclesiarchy has its own departments that involve themselves in investigations of suspected heresy (and in the case of that Witch-Finder, he was actually correct... Eisenhorn *is* a heretic.) and crimes against the Church/Imperium, but they don't really hold themselves as the equal to, or with the authority of, the Inquisition.

That does not make the accusations of heresy unfounded, or incorrect. Eisenhorn is a summoner and binder of daemons and a student of the blackest of sorceries.

Just to add...
The Inquisitor codex mentions Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors often overwatch Sororitas Wars of Faith to make sure they don't overextend their objectives.

 Psienesis wrote:
Sort of, but not really. The Ecclesiarchy has its own departments that involve themselves in investigations of suspected heresy (and in the case of that Witch-Finder, he was actually correct... Eisenhorn *is* a heretic.) and crimes against the Church/Imperium, but they don't really hold themselves as the equal to, or with the authority of, the Inquisition.

That does not make the accusations of heresy unfounded, or incorrect. Eisenhorn is a summoner and binder of daemons and a student of the blackest of sorceries.

Eisenhorn hadn't bound any daemons at this point. It was because of Cherubael mistaking another Inquisitor for him that caused the with hunter to search for him. The only infraction Gregor can be accused of at that time was the past conversations with Pontius Glaw and choosing to keep Glaw hidden.

The witch hunter was correct in terms of the future of Gregor, but at that point he was wrong.

The one note re High Lords - the Inquisitorial Representative isn't a permanent role, like the Master of the Assassins:

Note that a specific Inquisitor does not typically hold the position of Inquisitorial Representative on his own, but instead, the seat is retained for whichever individual is sent on behalf of the Inquisition during a meeting of the Senatorum.

He is just that; a 'normal' Inquisitor (in so far as there is such a thing) and his special status is simply that he was the guy who got sent to the meeting; it won't necessarily be the same one twice in a row.

As a meeting of the ruling council of a galaxy spanning empire, I assume the sandwiches are good, though.

 Psienesis wrote:
Sort of, but not really. The Ecclesiarchy has its own departments that involve themselves in investigations of suspected heresy (and in the case of that Witch-Finder, he was actually correct... Eisenhorn *is* a heretic.) and crimes against the Church/Imperium, but they don't really hold themselves as the equal to, or with the authority of, the Inquisition.

That does not make the accusations of heresy unfounded, or incorrect. Eisenhorn is a summoner and binder of daemons and a student of the blackest of sorceries.

The person in question considers his authority equal if not greater, he is part of an organisation within the ecclesiarchy that also conducts itself in the same manner, if a spade looks like a spade, it's a spade, but in this case its a broom that thinks it's a spade, and the spade doesn't appreciate it's hole being dug by the wrong tool haha.

And by this point eisenhorn wasn't renegade, the witch hunter was acting way above his mandate and shouldn't have even been involved, it was an inquisition matter, not the churches business at all.

locarno24 wrote:
The one note re High Lords - the Inquisitorial Representative isn't a permanent role, like the Master of the Assassins:

Note that a specific Inquisitor does not typically hold the position of Inquisitorial Representative on his own, but instead, the seat is retained for whichever individual is sent on behalf of the Inquisition during a meeting of the Senatorum.

He is just that; a 'normal' Inquisitor (in so far as there is such a thing) and his special status is simply that he was the guy who got sent to the meeting; it won't necessarily be the same one twice in a row.

As a meeting of the ruling council of a galaxy spanning empire, I assume the sandwiches are good, though.

But whichever Inquisitor attends still has equal authority to all the other High Lords. Which really shows just how much authority Inquisitors have. In practice, it's almost certainly always a very senior Inquisitor Lord, representing the interests of multiple other high ranking Inquisitors but technically, any random Inquisitor can be High Lord for a day. Any Inquisitor in the galaxy is basically equal to a High Lord in authority, and answerable only to other Inquisitors.

And the sandwiches are very good. They're foie gras.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras

Even the High Lords of Terra are not above an Inquisitor's scrutiny. That's what the Inquisition is for: to root out and destroy, by any means possible, all things that endanger the Emperor's domain.

 fallinq wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
The one note re High Lords - the Inquisitorial Representative isn't a permanent role, like the Master of the Assassins:

Note that a specific Inquisitor does not typically hold the position of Inquisitorial Representative on his own, but instead, the seat is retained for whichever individual is sent on behalf of the Inquisition during a meeting of the Senatorum.

He is just that; a 'normal' Inquisitor (in so far as there is such a thing) and his special status is simply that he was the guy who got sent to the meeting; it won't necessarily be the same one twice in a row.

As a meeting of the ruling council of a galaxy spanning empire, I assume the sandwiches are good, though.

But whichever Inquisitor attends still has equal authority to all the other High Lords. Which really shows just how much authority Inquisitors have. In practice, it's almost certainly always a very senior Inquisitor Lord, representing the interests of multiple other high ranking Inquisitors but technically, any random Inquisitor can be High Lord for a day. Any Inquisitor in the galaxy is basically equal to a High Lord in authority, and answerable only to other Inquisitors.

No. Not any random Inquisitor can be High Lord. The Inquisitorial Representative is always a senior Inquisitor Lord from Terra that is elected by his peers and appointed for 5 years. There can be more than one Representative at once, though only one can be present at the Senatorum. The position holds pretty little actual authority, because the Inquisitorial Representative in practice is usually just the guy running messages between the Inquisition and the High Lords.
Also, the Inquisition holds absolute authority in theory, but in practice their authority and power depends completely on the cooperation of the other High Lords (The Inquisition won't have any starships without the AdMech, and no armies if the Lord Commander Militant does not cooperate). That is why the Inquisitorial Representative is so important to be a permanent member, even if he is a diplomat rather than a decision-maker. He is pretty much the oil between the gears of the individual High Lords and Inquisitors that keeps the whole Imperium running.

Formosa wrote:
The person in question considers his authority equal if not greater, he is part of an organisation within the ecclesiarchy that also conducts itself in the same manner,

No, he's not. Tantalid is not part of a greater organisation within the Ecclesiarchy.

He is a self-appointed Witch Finder. Any Priest of the Ecclesiarchy can be a Witch-Finder. It's a temporary role, not an organisation.

For the Ecclesiarchy's specific investigative arm, you need to look to their internal affairs department, the Adepta Sororitas.

It's part of the Decree Passive. Just like some Priests are close-combat monsters with power mauls, archeotech pistols and insanely high weapon skill, but are not men at arms because they are simply priests who are "enthusiastic hobbyists" when it comes to the martial arts.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Formosa wrote:
The person in question considers his authority equal if not greater, he is part of an organisation within the ecclesiarchy that also conducts itself in the same manner,

No, he's not. Tantalid is not part of a greater organisation within the Ecclesiarchy.

He is a self-appointed Witch Finder. Any Priest of the Ecclesiarchy can be a Witch-Finder. It's a temporary role, not an organisation.

For the Ecclesiarchy's specific investigative arm, you need to look to their internal affairs department, the Adepta Sororitas.

It's part of the Decree Passive. Just like some Priests are close-combat monsters with power mauls, archeotech pistols and insanely high weapon skill, but are not men at arms because they are simply priests who are "enthusiastic hobbyists" when it comes to the martial arts.

He is a witch finder, there are more than one, that's an organisation pure and simple, self appointed, therefore considers himself able to do the job of censoring inquisitors, therefore considers his authority equal or greater than the inquisition, who's job it actually is. Temporary job, he's been doing it a long time, this quite clearly isn't temporary, unless it temporary until they die that is.

Any priest can be a witch finder, who appoints them, trains them, equips them, the ecclesiarchy, so they support the organisation and equipping of the witch finders, who step on the toes of the inquisition, hence wars have been started between the 2 organisations.

You can say it's not an organisation, but that doesn't make it so.

An organisation implies that there is leadership, heirarchy, beaurocracy. There isn't any of that behind Tantalid. The Ecclesiarchy don't even care that he goes missing beyond 'gah, we lost another priest'.

There's no organisation other than the Ecclesiarchy itself. Name one other Ecclesiarchy Witch-finder, source them.

Tantalid decided that the best way for him to serve the Ecclesiarchy was to hunt down psykers. That's fine. He called himself a Witch-finder. That's fine.

There is no faction within the Ecclesiarchy known as the "witch-finders".

For political reasons the Ecclesiarchy would probably try to get a Puritanical Inquisitor to do their dirty work for them. Puritans are notoriously zealous. Given the infighting between Inquisitorial factions it would be very easy to find someone willing and able to take down a rival Inquisitor. If the Inquisition had hard evidence they could have it fall into the hands of such a rival and watch the fireworks with no reprecussions.

Failing that, a quiet visit from a Death Cult might work. If the evidence against the Inquisitor was strong enough the Officious Assassinorum could be called in.

My two cents.

The Inquisition is in control of the Officio Assassinorum.

Well, technically, there's only one Inquisitorial representative, and one Ecclesiarchical represetative, and the Assassins answer to the High Lords as a group...

Seriously, the amount of bureaucracy involved in deploying an Assassin makes them basically useless.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
An organisation implies that there is leadership, heirarchy, beaurocracy. There isn't any of that behind Tantalid. The Ecclesiarchy don't even care that he goes missing beyond 'gah, we lost another priest'.

There's no organisation other than the Ecclesiarchy itself. Name one other Ecclesiarchy Witch-finder, source them.

Tantalid decided that the best way for him to serve the Ecclesiarchy was to hunt down psykers. That's fine. He called himself a Witch-finder. That's fine.

There is no faction within the Ecclesiarchy known as the "witch-finders".

Just because you don't hear about them in other books, doesn't mean they are not there, and you "assume" there isn't any organisation behind tyrus, so I ask again, who trained him to use power armour, who equipped him, where did any of his resources come from, but tell you what, I'll go read the book again and see exactly what's said, that way we can at least get a direct quote.

... Since you don't even realise that Witch-Hunter Tyrus is an Inquisitor, not a member of the Ecclesiarchy at all, you should probably check your facts before arguing with me.

Tantalid is the Ecclesiarchy 'witch-finder'.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
... Since you don't even realise that Witch-Hunter Tyrus is an Inquisitor, not a member of the Ecclesiarchy at all, you should probably check your facts before arguing with me.

Tantalid is the Ecclesiarchy 'witch-finder'.

It's called mis-remembering a name, witch hunter and witch finder, quite easy to mix those up eh, and I suggest you check your attitude before "discussing" a make believe world, it seems you were having an argument while the rest of us were talking.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Inquisition is in control of the Officio Assassinorum.

No. Just no.
The Officio Assassinorum answers to no one but itself. It has a permanent seat on the Senatorum Imperialis and is one of the most powerful organisations in the entire Imperium. Like any Imperial organisation, they will work together with the Inquisition, but the Inquisition does not control them.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Inquisition is in control of the Officio Assassinorum.

No. Just no.
The Officio Assassinorum answers to no one but itself. It has a permanent seat on the Senatorum Imperialis and is one of the most powerful organisations in the entire Imperium. Like any Imperial organisation, they will work together with the Inquisition, but the Inquisition does not control them.

Ordo Sicarius says "Hi."

 Formosa wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
... Since you don't even realise that Witch-Hunter Tyrus is an Inquisitor, not a member of the Ecclesiarchy at all, you should probably check your facts before arguing with me.

Tantalid is the Ecclesiarchy 'witch-finder'.

It's called mis-remembering a name, witch hunter and witch finder, quite easy to mix those up eh, and I suggest you check your attitude before "discussing" a make believe world, it seems you were having an argument while the rest of us were talking.

I told you a fact, you argued with me, incorrectly. That's just what happened.

Inquisition by far. Ecclesiarchy was effectively stripped of power after the Age of Apostasy.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Inquisition is in control of the Officio Assassinorum.

No. Just no.
The Officio Assassinorum answers to no one but itself. It has a permanent seat on the Senatorum Imperialis and is one of the most powerful organisations in the entire Imperium. Like any Imperial organisation, they will work together with the Inquisition, but the Inquisition does not control them.

Ordo Sicarius says "Hi."

The Inquisition monitors the Assassinorum, like they do with all Imperial organisations. That is their job. However, monitoring ≠ controlling. The Inquisition keeps a watchful eye on the Assassins (with the Assassin's own consent), but it does not control them. This is shown very clearly when the Inquisition twice had to stop plots by the Officio Assassinorum to assassinate one of the High Lords. If the Inquisition had been in control of the Assassinorum they wouldn't have attempted to kill the High Lords in the first place.

The Inqusition's control of what contracts the Assassinorum takes is proof of their control of the Assassinorum.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Inqusition's control of what contracts the Assassinorum takes is proof of their control of the Assassinorum.

They don't.
Assassinations are approved by the High Lords, not the Inquisition. The Inquisiton only gets permission to see the report of it afterwards.
And even then, the attempted assassinations of the High Lords show that the Assassinorum does act on its own.

In theory, the Inquisition has the legal high ground. In practice, the Ecclesiarchy has direct control over stupid numbers of people.

It's also worth remembering that the Inquisition has an immense variety of philosophies and aims among its members, not to mention the fact that the Inquisition's attention is divided across numerous different fronts, while the Ecclesiarchy is of largely singular purpose.

Thank the Emperor for the Ordo Hereticus.

Not even the High Lords "give permission" to the Inquisition. The Inquisition, as a body, is of higher authority than the High Lords, for even they are not free of an Inquisitor's suspicion.

There are two groups in the Imperium that are free from Inquiry. One of them is the God-Emperor, Himself. The other is the Adeptus Custodes.

 Psienesis wrote:
Not even the High Lords "give permission" to the Inquisition. The Inquisition, as a body, is of higher authority than the High Lords, for even they are not free of an Inquisitor's suspicion.

There are two groups in the Imperium that are free from Inquiry. One of them is the God-Emperor, Himself. The other is the Adeptus Custodes.

That is in theory. In practice the Inquisiton is a loose group of bickering individuals without access to any power beyond what they get out of cooperation with the powers that be in the Imperium. The Inquisition can't afford to upset the High Lords. If they piss off the Fabricator General of Mars, the Inquisiton will find itself without spaceships or other fancy tech. If they piss off the Lord Commander Militant, the Inquisition will find itself without armies. If they piss of the Ecclessiarch, the Inquisition will find itself without support amongst the highly religious population of the Imperium, or worse, they may be declared heretical themselves.
High level politics in the Imperium is a complex game of backstabbing and machiavellian realpolitik. The Inquisition is just an element in this game, they are not free from corruption and they are not all-powerful. The Emperor may have given absolute authority to the Inquisition, but who is going to enforce that now? The Emperor is dead, long live the Emperor.

Yes, but the Realpolitick of the situation doesn't change the reality that the High Lords are not actually in charge of the Inquisition. The founding of the Inquisition clearly states, either directly from the Emperor or from his Voice, Malcador the Sigilite, that the Inquisition will have no barriers to their mission and no stays to their activities.

And the Inquisition is really quite good at enforcing its own authority when it needs to. While a single Inquisitor is beholden to the rest of the organization and his/her own assets and resources, as an organization they can command anything they need to get the job done.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yes, but the Realpolitick of the situation doesn't change the reality that the High Lords are not actually in charge of the Inquisition. The founding of the Inquisition clearly states, either directly from the Emperor or from his Voice, Malcador the Sigilite, that the Inquisition will have no barriers to their mission and no stays to their activities.

And the Inquisition is really quite good at enforcing its own authority when it needs to. While a single Inquisitor is beholden to the rest of the organization and his/her own assets and resources, as an organization they can command anything they need to get the job done.

The High Lords are not in charge of the Inquisition, no one is in charge of the Inquisition. But neither is the Inquisition in charge of the High Lords. And yes, the Emperor may have said that (or he may not, there are multiple stories regarding the founding of the Inquisition), but the Emperor is as good as dead now, so what he said or not is completely subject to interpretation by the High Lords, who are to rule in the Emperor's place. The High Lords, and the High Lords alone are allowed to interpret the will of the Emperor and to enact it. And you bet they will always interpret it in their favour.
Again, the Inquisition has no power of its own. No guard commander will want to work with a shady guy waving a symbol around demanding stuff if he has been given personal orders by the Lord Commander Militant himself that he is to refuse all demands made by the Inquisition. Similar with spaceships. The Inquisition has precious little ships of its own, most Inquisitors just have to hitch a ride on whatever vessel comes along if they want to go somewhere.
In practice there are a huge lots of barriers to an Inquisitor's mission, and the only way to solve them is to cooperate with others. And this makes sense, because it keeps the Imperium in balance. All Imperial organisations have need of the other organisations in order to function, none of them has dominance over the others. The Inquisition is no different in that regard, which is good, otherwise the Imperium would have effectively been a dictatorship by the Inquisition, and if the institution would ever have become corrupted, the entire Imperium would have fallen with it. After the Horus Heresy, the Imperium has always been very careful in ensuring no one individual or organisation holds too much power.

but the Emperor is as good as dead now, so what he said or not is completely subject to interpretation by the High Lords, who are to rule in the Emperor's place.

And that is exactly how the Inquisition remains in power by the letter and spirit of the law (rather than force of arms). The High Lords likewise have no better claim to power than "The Emperor said so". If the HLoT want to try to say, "The Inquisition doesn't have rank because the Emperor isn't here and we say they don't", they'd find themselves drawn and quartered. The HLoT exist because the Emperor gave them jobs.

This, of course, setting aside the Emperor's Tarot for the moment, which is remarked as being a method the HLoT (and others) use to divine the Emperor's Will.

The Inquisition has its own naval assets (including the Black Ships) but, as you say, it's not intended to rival the Imperial Navy. It doesn't need to. If the Inquisition needs naval assets, it gets naval assets. Or Imperial Guard. Or Space Marines. Or Sororitas. Or whatever else they need.

 Psienesis wrote:

but the Emperor is as good as dead now, so what he said or not is completely subject to interpretation by the High Lords, who are to rule in the Emperor's place.

And that is exactly how the Inquisition remains in power by the letter and spirit of the law (rather than force of arms). The High Lords likewise have no better claim to power than "The Emperor said so". If the HLoT want to try to say, "The Inquisition doesn't have rank because the Emperor isn't here and we say they don't", they'd find themselves drawn and quartered. The HLoT exist because the Emperor gave them jobs.

This, of course, setting aside the Emperor's Tarot for the moment, which is remarked as being a method the HLoT (and others) use to divine the Emperor's Will.

The Inquisition has its own naval assets (including the Black Ships) but, as you say, it's not intended to rival the Imperial Navy. It doesn't need to. If the Inquisition needs naval assets, it gets naval assets. Or Imperial Guard. Or Space Marines. Or Sororitas. Or whatever else they need.

Yes, but they can't get Imperial Guard without cooperation of the Lord Commander Militant, nor Sororitas without cooperation with the Ecclessiarch. All those assets are loyal to their own commanders rather than the Inquisition, and only cooperate with the Inquisition because they are on the same side and the Inquisition do the Emperor's work. If an Inquisitor pisses off the wrong people however, they will no longer be on the same side, and thus deprived of most assets.

Also, no one actually knows whether it was the Emperor who gave the Inquisition its authority, because no one was present at that moment apart from Malcador. All it would take for the HLoT to take out the Inquisition is to declare their story (and thus their authority) a fabrication. Who would question the High Lords, who know the Emperor's will and rule in his stead? The Inquisition can only do its job as long as it has the approval of the guys who hold the true power (armies and spacefleets). Of course, a situation like this is unlikely to happen, because everyone sees the necessity of the Inquisition. Without the Inquisition, the Imperium would fall apart. Besides, the Inquisition is smart enough that when they need a High Lord removed, they will make sure they have the approval of the other High Lords. The High Lords don't speak with one voice after all, they are often fierce rivals.

Yeah they can. They simply go around the LCM.

Inquisition needs Guardsmen? Walk up to the closest Regiment, backed by your private army of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, flash the Rosette, "By command of the Emperor, you and your men now serve the Inquisition."

No Colonel, no Commissar, no Guardsman is going to refuse the order of an Inquisitor. They know who these people are, and they know what they are authorized to do (which is everything). Skip around Terra completely, especially if you think there's corruption on the highest level.

Repeat as needed. Now you have millions of soldiers.

Write a letter: "Dear Chapter Master of Whatever-the-Feth Latest Founding Astartes Chapter, the Ordos of His Holy Inquisition have need of your services."

Now you have Space Marines.

Fly up to ships of the Imperial Navy. Board the bridge with a few Space Marines from Whatever-the-Feth Latest Founding Astartes Chapter, flash the Rosette, "Admiral, you and your fleet now serve the Emperor through the agency of His Ordos of the Holy Inquisition."

Repeat as needed.

Now you have an armada, Space Marines, and Guardsmen, and all of it completely within your remit as an Inquisitor.

By that point, given that said inquisitor would have drained a healthy portion of a sectors arms and manpower, you can be damn sure that other members of the Inquisition would be paying attention. Most likely to ensure the Inquisitor isn't just dicking around with his personal army, or worse using it for malign purposes.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yeah they can. They simply go around the LCM.

Inquisition needs Guardsmen? Walk up to the closest Regiment, backed by your private army of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, flash the Rosette, "By command of the Emperor, you and your men now serve the Inquisition."

No Colonel, no Commissar, no Guardsman is going to refuse the order of an Inquisitor. They know who these people are, and they know what they are authorized to do (which is everything). Skip around Terra completely, especially if you think there's corruption on the highest level.

Yes, and if said Colonel has just received orders from no one less but the Lord Commander Militant of Terra himself to refuse the commands of the Inquisition, that Rosette isn't going to do anything. The loyalty of the IG is with its commanders, not with the Inquisition.
If you suspect the Lord Commander Militant to be corrupted, it would be a bad idea to walk up right to his soldiers and try to get them work for you. Even if the Lord Commander is not aware of your activities and they have not yet received orders from Terra, they are bound to get those as you openly move against the Lord Commander. And when they have to choose sides between this shady guy claiming to be an Inquisitor and Holy Terra itself, I would not really count on their loyalty towards you.

No, an Inquisitor trying to get rid of a High Lord should be far more subtle. He will likely make a deal with those High Lords that are also opposed to the one that he tries to remove, and try to get support from at least a few of the Imperium's major powers, such as the AdMech, Munitorum, Assassinorum or Ecclessiarchy. Alternatively, he could recruit a Chapter of Space Marines and have them drop right in to elimate the High Lord directly with a surprise strike, but that would likely upset the other High Lords and could even lead to war as the defenders of Terra move against this apparent attack.
No, High Lords are too powerful to be removed by force. Better to get them out with politicking or have the Assassinorum and Inquisition set up an assassination.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Yes, and if said Colonel has just received orders from no one less but the Lord Commander Militant of Terra himself to refuse the commands of the Inquisition, that Rosette isn't going to do anything. The loyalty of the IG is with its commanders, not with the Inquisition.

The vast majority of the IG would have little clue who that is. It's simply too far above their heads, for most concerned their supreme commander would be the Sector Commander.

Even IF that particular Colonel recognised that this would be a legitimate order from a High Lord of Terra, the answer of whether or not he would comply is a question of reality, politics, personal beliefs and circumstances. Legally speaking though, the Inquisitor should technically win out.

 Psienesis wrote:
Now you have an armada, Space Marines, and Guardsmen, and all of it completely within your remit as an Inquisitor.

Which is ofc true, but an Inquisitor who does this without a bloody good reason won't remain an Inquisitor very long. Most likely he wasn't made an Inquisitor to begin with. That's a lot of the Emperor's fine warriors and ships not doing their normal duties, and an Inquisitor has to be aware not only of his present mission but also of other issues facing the IoM.

A more reasonable approach would be asking the local commander what forces he'd use for such-and-such a mission, then request those be made available.

 Humble Guardsman wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Yes, and if said Colonel has just received orders from no one less but the Lord Commander Militant of Terra himself to refuse the commands of the Inquisition, that Rosette isn't going to do anything. The loyalty of the IG is with its commanders, not with the Inquisition.

The vast majority of the IG would have little clue who that is. It's simply too far above their heads, for most concerned their supreme commander would be the Sector Commander.

Even IF that particular Colonel recognised that this would be a legitimate order from a High Lord of Terra, the answer of whether or not he would comply is a question of reality, politics, personal beliefs and circumstances. Legally speaking though, the Inquisitor should technically win out.

The High Lord of Terra would not bother with contacting individual colonels. He has a command structure for that. He gives the orders to his Segmentum Commanders, who pass it on to the Sector Commanders until it finally ends up with individual Guardsmen. And I am pretty sure there would be at least one page in the Uplifting Primer explaining the command structure, so that Guardsmen know whose orders to follow. And if a colonel would doubt or refuse his orders, well, that is why the regimental Commissar is always present for a summary execution and to ensure orders are followed to the letter. And if said Commissar has just heard word from Terra that the Inquisition (or a specific Inquisitor) has fallen to heresy, he would probably like a word with that Inquisitor too. In that case I guess it would come down to whose authority and claims of the other being corrupted are more convinving.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The High Lord of Terra would not bother with contacting individual colonels. He has a command structure for that. He gives the orders to his Segmentum Commanders, who pass it on to the Sector Commanders until it finally ends up with individual Guardsmen. And I am pretty sure there would be at least one page in the Uplifting Primer explaining the command structure, so that Guardsmen know whose orders to follow. And if a colonel would doubt or refuse his orders, well, that is why the regimental Commissar is always present for a summary execution and to ensure orders are followed to the letter.

And a Sector Commander has not one whit of authority before members of the Inquisition. It does the inquisition no good to piss such powerful individuals off, so any Inquisitor would tread lightly, but they have the authority to overrule even specific orders of Segmentum Command if they see fit.

And if said Commissar has just heard word from Terra that the Inquisition (or a specific Inquisitor) has fallen to heresy, he would probably like a word with that Inquisitor too. In that case I guess it would come down to whose authority and claims of the other being corrupted are more convincing.

Isn't that a little far-fetched? Regardless, legally speaking the Inquisition trumps the natural chain of command here.

True but the inquisition has to be polite at tilmes, guard you can bully into doing what you want no problem, do that to the space marines and you may not leave alive. Admech are very powerful, and respect would get you alot further than a bolt pistol.

A one has to use diplomacy, tact and political games as well as there assigned authority and threats.

Some forces are too powerful or proud just to bully

Remember: The life expectancy in the field of a textbook Commissar is roughly two weeks... because that's how long it usually takes his unit to get sick of his constant culling of their own side and shoot him in the back during battle.

The same thing goes for Inquisitors who throw their weight around unnecessarily.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Remember: The life expectancy in the field of a textbook Commissar is roughly two weeks... because that's how long it usually takes his unit to get sick of his constant culling of their own side and shoot him in the back during battle.

The same thing goes for Inquisitors who throw their weight around unnecessarily.

You have a source for that? I don't doubt they suffer unusually high rates of friendly fire, but a specific life expectancy rate for them in general is something you should provide a reference for.

Source is Redemption Corps, although that was specifically about a Stormtrooper regiment - presumably, in a regular guard unit, the expectacy would be somewhat less.

Cain also made a comment to similar effect when he was explaining why he wanted to be the soldiers' friend rather than their bogeyman, but he's somewhat less of a reliable narrator.

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
By that point, given that said inquisitor would have drained a healthy portion of a sectors arms and manpower, you can be damn sure that other members of the Inquisition would be paying attention. Most likely to ensure the Inquisitor isn't just dicking around with his personal army, or worse using it for malign purposes.

Yes, exactly, but if the Inquisition, as a body, is on board with our example Inquisitor, there is no one with the legal authority to stop him/her from doing what they're about. Again, the Inquisition's authority is virtually limitless, and it is definitely not limited by the High Lords of Terra and, most importantly, everyone who is anyone knows this.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
By that point, given that said inquisitor would have drained a healthy portion of a sectors arms and manpower, you can be damn sure that other members of the Inquisition would be paying attention. Most likely to ensure the Inquisitor isn't just dicking around with his personal army, or worse using it for malign purposes.

Yes, exactly, but if the Inquisition, as a body, is on board with our example Inquisitor, there is no one with the legal authority to stop him/her from doing what they're about. Again, the Inquisition's authority is virtually limitless, and it is definitely not limited by the High Lords of Terra and, most importantly, everyone who is anyone knows this.

True but one who makes too many enemies or threatens too many powerful people without the resources to back them up, certain groups like space marines do not take well to threats in there own halls. there bound to meet a stickey end sooner or later and if they sent another to investigate theyd find one who let power go to head and insulted the wrong folk, ultimate power is one thing, knowing when to use it is quite another.

That's true, but is getting way outside the scope of this discussion.

The question was "who has more authority?" That answer is, was, and remains, the Inquisition.

It answers to no one but itself, while everyone in the Imperium ultimately answers to the Inquisition.

Considering that astropathic messages can take weeks/months/years to reach another astropath close to this colonel, and then it would require the colonel to check in with the astropath (like his email service), then it is highly unlikely that the Lord commander militant would get a message to said colonel faster than an inquisitor requisitioning them for service. At that point the colonel is in the hands of the inquisition, if he tries to pull out of his duties, he's burning as a heretic by orders of said inquisition.

Inquisitor with good reason > any high lord of terra

 Psienesis wrote:
That's true, but is getting way outside the scope of this discussion.

The question was "who has more authority?" That answer is, was, and remains, the Inquisition.

It answers to no one but itself, while everyone in the Imperium ultimately answers to the Inquisition.

True but it also illustrates ultimate power its not always the same in the field than on paper. Yes they have power over everyone bar a custodius who is only one who can say no thanks my jobs more important.

On a cardinal world home to a main order and religious sect even the inquisition might tread lighter than normaly. They have ultimate power over it but its smarter to be seen to work with them even if its totaly one sided. Aperences matter.

In theory ultimate power, in practice still but requires a slightly different approach to succeed. If a rougue inquisitor is too rougue, even the "weaker" might have grounds to arrest, but turn over to inqusitor to judge. Aka obvious heresy.

It's not that the Custodes have jobs that are "more important", it's that the Inquisition considers their loyalty unimpeachable, and so does not bring them under their purview (the Custodes are an internally-policing organization). The other person free of Inquiry is the Emperor, for obvious reasons.

While it might be easier and more convenient for an Inquisitor to "play nice" with certain other worthies in the Imperium, that's just the nature of politics. While a Cardinal might get his mitre bent if an Inquisitor started making demands of him, the Cardinal doesn't actually have the authority to rebuff them (again, assuming the Inq isn't just faffing about) and while he can certainly take steps to block or eliminate the Inq, all of those actions are Heresy.

Guarding the emperor is a pretty important duty, and there they also do monitor terrain threats so they might also in exchange not to be called upon have the captain general have a quiet word with inquisitorial representerive about known threats.

The Impirium is corrupt to the core.
Plus there only organisation I know of bar grey knights to have zero traitors.


True, the cardinal is bound to give him what he wants, however the religion of Impirium is a far larger organisation, might not be able to refuse but does not say they might not well hard to describe but make life Harder without comiting heresy,

I agree inquisition had ultimate power but does not mean that powerful individuals can interfere abit with that power.

Again, outside the scope of the discussion.

OK I might revise that sentence, ultimate power until you consider a space wolf.
Slight diverergence but shows suitibley placed can resist and live.

The survived the months of shame.
No one should have, but even inquisition has to cut its loss,s

If they achieved it, why not a ultra large and powerful cardinal, billions of followers etc.
They can have similar levels of resources at there control

Space Wolves survive because Plot Armor. That's the only reason the Chapter still exists. If the Space Wolves had not been a First Founding Legion, Fenris would now be a cloud of ash.

Because a Cardinal has a narrow remit of acceptable behavior, and an army of women in power armor who will burn him at the stake if he steps outside that remit. The Inquisition has no such limit.

The strength of the Inquisition claim of power lies in the fact that it is a decentralized organization. Each inquisitor is just as suspicious of other inquisitors as of any other Imperial citizen. This prevents the amassing of power under a single individual (such as Vandire.)

Vandire's ascension was a very clever bit of politicking though. He started out as the heir to the High Lord of the Administratum, who he then conspired against with the High Lord of the Ecclesiarchy, who thought to install Vandire as a puppet.

Vandire then ensured that the High Lord of the Ecclesiarchy, who had named him heir, was fingered for the deed, and from there assumed both roles.

Vandire was a case of slow creep, no one noticed until too late as he gained power slower, the frog was warmed not boiled.

Secure one, then the next, over time gain power. Even the inquisition failed to stop his rein of blood. His rise was not instantious.manipulating the telepathica, other corruption and such. No one noticed properly until he was already too far gone, and even then no single organisation could resist alone without allies. They did but it in end but took many bloody years.

Yes inquisition had ultimate power but there rival too had gathered massive power. What was there role in that era, there part seems to be rather missing for such powerful and investetgive organisation?

They were busy, and they had nobody specifically assigned to the Ecclesiarchy.

The Ordo Hereticus wasn't founded until after the Reign of Blood - it was the Administratum's response, as the Sororitas were the Ecclesiarchy's.

True it they still had a base on Terra and could see what was going on the planet and no doubt is nigh impossible even for valdire to threaten. Even if they had pulled back from it due to situation, they have many spies everywhere from lowest hive to highest chambers.

True they where the knee jerk reply, and no way existed but just a missing bit of fictional puzzle

Legal power, the Inquisiton.

Political power, the Ecclesiarchy.

Perhaps a better way to position them is "authority" versus "influence". The Ecclesiarchy wields more influence than any other organization in the Imperium, hands down. It touches the lives of every single Imperial Citizen in some way every day of every year, and the effects of that influence is something that the Inquisition needs to be aware of at all times.

And that includes the influence that the Ecclesiarchy has over the Inquisition itself.

Indeed, with the Puritan factions and the like, though I'm sure that influence works the other way, too, though perhaps not on such a large scale.

 Psienesis wrote:
Perhaps a better way to position them is "authority" versus "influence". The Ecclesiarchy wields more influence than any other organization in the Imperium, hands down. It touches the lives of every single Imperial Citizen in some way every day of every year, and the effects of that influence is something that the Inquisition needs to be aware of at all times.

Plus some departments are need to know only. And then your exacuted after job done.
They might know inquisition. And that there someone you never ever want to meet but your average hive dweller will know there religious side far better but not know anything about the universe outside there hive block.

So all considered, the inquisition to some may be dread myth, or a hearsay abouyt a event in another sector but not know what they are first hand. Some unlucky individuals will know but I'd say there more a whispered secret police force, no one ever wants to meet and your average citizen fears them but out of fear of unknown power and dread than awed respect.

However all know the religion, it has shrines and temples from the highest spires to tiny run down hiver chapels with a single priest and a few hand me down alter bits that no longer where needed from a grander one.

So all in all it has the far greater influence over little people general lives.
Inquisition has a far greater pull but they never see it. All in shadows they never will know. out of those two the citizen will see one thing, the eltite another but to comepete, no inefficient, to utilise the structure in place, much more effective.


The wisest route I'd say I'd for inquisition to play of peoples faith and manipulate them using a framework that's already well bedded in. let the network the religion already has pass on your message to general population and provides many many spies if manipulated discreetly,

Oh, indeed. I've never claimed the Inquisition has more influence over the Imperium than the Ecclesiarchy, that would be ludicrous. In terms of enacting the general populace of the Imperium to do something or to change something, the Ecclesiarchy is the best tool for that job. Not only does every Imperial Citizen go to church (sometimes several times a week, based on practices of individual worlds) but it also has the tools to enforce religious/morality laws in the population centers... though in many of these cases, the Inquisition will be involved in monitoring the activities of the Ecclesiarchy.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yes, but the Realpolitick of the situation doesn't change the reality that the High Lords are not actually in charge of the Inquisition. The founding of the Inquisition clearly states, either directly from the Emperor or from his Voice, Malcador the Sigilite, that the Inquisition will have no barriers to their mission and no stays to their activities.

And the Inquisition is really quite good at enforcing its own authority when it needs to. While a single Inquisitor is beholden to the rest of the organization and his/her own assets and resources, as an organization they can command anything they need to get the job done.

Theoretically, that's true. However, practically, if they just bully everyone around, they'll find themselves unable to do anything remotely close to their stated objective. As Iron Captain previously stated, starting a feud with a single High Lord would lead to a crippling drop in Inquisitorial power.

How do you figure?

Single High Lord has beef with Inquisition.

Inquisition gets tired of it. Discovers that, shock and horror, that High Lord had fallen into worship of the Dread Gods! Heretic!

Single High Lord is burned at the stake as a traitor.

Other High Lords, observing this, are reminded why it is unwise to feth with the Inquisition.


Another way to look at it:

The Emperor placed the Inquisition above all men, to guard the Imperium against threats both internal and external, in the cause of purity.
Ergo, to resist the Inquisition is to resist the Will and Word of the Emperor. That makes you a Heretic. The Inquisition is tasked with the persecution of Heretics.

The problem is that the Inquisition is far from a monolithic entity and it's hard to imagine a non heretic high lord who really has a beef with the Inquisition rather than a specific Inquisitor or a specific faction. Which is a whole different issue, as a lot of an individual inquisitors awesome theoretical legal authority is nullified on a highly politicised world like terra where other peers of the imperium and Inquisitors are automatically involved.

hate the ecclesiarch because he has a dodgy beard and took the last sandwich at the last meeting? What are your options?

Declare him a heretic? For someone like that on a world like that, needs the conclaves backing. Which means actual evidence and even then some factions may well back the church on general principles unless it's really damming.

Have him killed? By whom? A 'real' assassin needs senatorum aproval and he sits on that, and his personal security is going to be a match for anything short of such.

Repeatedly make trouble? A lot of people are going to consider you the heretic if you do - including organisations who aren't subject to your authority, other inquisitors for one and (on terra) the adeptus custodes for another.

Other Inquisitors are most certainly subject to the authority of an Inquisitor. It's a self-policing organization.

 Psienesis wrote:
Other Inquisitors are most certainly subject to the authority of an Inquisitor. It's a self-policing organization.

yes not monolithic, but mess with one inquisitor, your draw the ire of alot more than one. some of the Lords and Senior figures are very powerful on there own, yet alone with there allies.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a self-policing organization.

Aye, and that's what keeps an individual Inquisitor from requisitioning a Battleship just for taking him to the liqour store. He can do it by showing his credentials but his peers will not stand for it. So after a few battleship tours someone will arrive to get the guy into custody or alternatively put a bolt shell into his head.

Which isn't at all part of this discussion. We're talking about the authority one body has in relation to the other, and the highest authority yet rests on the Inquisition.

If a given Inquisitor has the legitimate need of it, there is next to nothing in the galaxy he or she cannot command. Naval assets, Imperial Guard, Space Marines... all of this is under their purview, and there is literally *nothing* the Ecclesiarchy can do to stop them. Heck, there's nothing the High Lords of Terra can do to stop them, in the sense of countermanding the order. Lord General Whats-his-face? Falls under the authority of the Inquisition. To refuse their order is to commit heresy and to act counter to the authority of the Emperor.

People are getting caught up in the idea of an Inquisitor doing it "for the laughs"... but it is a rare, rare, *rare* Inquisitor who would even consider that as a possibility. It's not like they grab these people from some under-Hive bar and hand them a rosette.

 Psienesis wrote:
Which isn't at all part of this discussion. We're talking about the authority one body has in relation to the other, and the highest authority yet rests on the Inquisition.

If a given Inquisitor has the legitimate need of it, there is next to nothing in the galaxy he or she cannot command. Naval assets, Imperial Guard, Space Marines... all of this is under their purview, and there is literally *nothing* the Ecclesiarchy can do to stop them. Heck, there's nothing the High Lords of Terra can do to stop them, in the sense of countermanding the order. Lord General Whats-his-face? Falls under the authority of the Inquisition. To refuse their order is to commit heresy and to act counter to the authority of the Emperor.

People are getting caught up in the idea of an Inquisitor doing it "for the laughs"... but it is a rare, rare, *rare* Inquisitor who would even consider that as a possibility. It's not like they grab these people from some under-Hive bar and hand them a rosette.

I think you're getting a little caught up in assuming legal power is the same as actual power.

Let's put your assumption to the test. The Fabricator General makes trouble for the Inquisitorial representative. The Inquisitorial representative, convinced in his purity and righteousness, decides to have him arrested and executed. He arrives on Mars, and demands that the nearest group of Skitarii accompany him to arrest the High Lord.

What happens is the Skitarii push him into a waiting room and get further orders. If the Inquisitor demands they obey him and proceed with him to the Fabricator General, the Inquisitorial representative will most likely find out that his authority does not extend to commanding those skitarii in reality, especially when the orders get downloaded (and they will do, before he gets close, even if it's just in the procedure of locating the Fabricator General) to keep him the hell away from the Fabricator General. If our erstwhile Inquisitor tries to force his way through, he will most likely be gunned down as a madman before he gets close. Because a Inquisitoral rosette is a poor shield for taking down a High Lord.

If he instead goes to Naval and Imperial Guard High Lords to get the military backing to assault Mars and remove him by force (because the resources required will be immense enough that you can't build up a force one commandeered regiment at a time), they'll demand to know precisely why he's trying to take out the Fabricator General, and will need a damn sight more proof than 'Because I say so and have a flashy =I= sign, therefore obey me'.

Such a scenario would play out in the cases of an attempted removal of any of militarily responsible High Lords. The Inquisitorial Representative simply does not have the resources (or time to gather them) to launch a military campaign large enough to depose the heads of one of the main services without recourse to the other heads of the military orientated services. And if they refuse him, or actively oppose him, our Inquisitorial representative may find he's the one getting deposed.

Inq isn't going to roll up to Mars by himself. Inq convinced the FG is a traitor is going to get the backup first, and then advance, whether that backup takes the form of Space Marines, IG, or other high-ranking Tech-Priests, the leaders of a few Titan legions, a half billion skitarri, or whatever else he needs.

Or he's going to black bag the FG (or have an Ordo Assassinorum resource do it) and no one's the wiser.

Inq doesn't need to go to the HL of the Deparmento Munitorum. Just goes to a Sector Commander or a Lord General (rather than the Lord Solar). Gets an entire Crusade worth of resources once he presents his evidence. Then rolls to Mars.

Alternately, has his evidence, and denounces the FG in front of the HLoT. They'll back him right then and there, with relatively minor fuss.

 Psienesis wrote:
Inq isn't going to roll up to Mars by himself.

Why not? If the Inquisition is the ultimate power here, and normal soldiers just swoon at the production of badge as you seem to think, surely that's all he needs to do, right? He'll wander through the halls of Mars, and demand everyone he meets follow him and obey him. Right?

Inq convinced the FG is a traitor is going to get the backup first, and then advance, whether that backup takes the form of Space Marines, IG, or other high-ranking Tech-Priests, the leaders of a few Titan legions, a half billion skitarri, or whatever else he needs.

Or he's going to black bag the FG (or have an Ordo Assassinorum resource do it) and no one's the wiser.

Inq doesn't need to go to the HL of the Deparmento Munitorum. Just goes to a Sector Commander or a Lord General (rather than the Lord Solar). Gets an entire Crusade worth of resources once he presents his evidence. Then rolls to Mars.

And you don't think that before laying siege to MARS, the aforementioned sector commander won't shoot off a message to his boss? You think he won't insist on getting orders before collaborating with his Navy counterpart about throwing around a vast army just outside Terra?

Pull the other one. If the Inquisitorial Representative starts trying to move gigantic fleets around inside the Terran system, and then trying to remove/execute highly senior officers for needing confirmation from higher up first, the Inquisitorial representative, will again, not make it very far.

Alternately, has his evidence, and denounces the FG in front of the HLoT. They'll back him right then and there, with relatively minor fuss.

Thank you for proving my point, namely that he'd require the other High Lords to back him before whisking the Fabricator General off. Because from what you've been saying thus far, the Inquisitorial Representative has the power to bend the Fabricator General over his knee and spank him, whilst threatening to cap anyone who disagrees with his action.

If the other High Lords tell the Inquisitorial Representative to pack it in, and they're not convinced by his evidence, the Inquisitorial representative sits down, shuts up, and starts thinking about nominating his successor. He doesn't get to override all the other Lords, and if he tried, they'd ask the Custodes to confine him as a madman.

One, the HL do not command the Custodes. At all. They serve the Emperor, alone.

Two, the Inquisition has the authority to do exactly as I've described in every event. They also have the authority to do as you've described. However, as you said, authority =/= ability which I have never claimed was synonymous. Can the Inquisition obtain the ability to do something like this? Yes, probably, but would depend on the specifics of the situation (see: GK/SW conflict for an event where the Inq considered it not worth the trouble... though that lone Inq did get *quite* the forces behind him.)

Three, the Inq doesn't act on shoddy information. As rather significantly detailed in Abnett's books, an Inquisitor can spend years, even decades, researching and gathering evidence for a case. When they act? Their evidence is compelling, overwhelming even, especially when taking actions against those with some degree or modicum of influence and power in Imperial society. No Inq who would be investigating the FG is going to be some no-name with a Rosette, it's going to be a Lord Inquisitor with centuries of experience and *several* high-profile Inquiries under his/her belt. If they're making a move against the FG? They're doing so because someone else within the AdMech brought it to their attention, and they've spent *quite* a long time gathering evidence. That's simply how the Inquisition works. They're a secret police organization, in the main. They don't simply disappear people for grins and giggles.

 Psienesis wrote:
One, the HL do not command the Custodes. At all. They serve the Emperor, alone.

I believe he said ask, not command.

Two, the Inquisition has the authority to do exactly as I've described in every event. They also have the authority to do as you've described. However, as you said, authority =/= ability which I have never claimed was synonymous. Can the Inquisition obtain the ability to do something like this? Yes, probably, but would depend on the specifics of the situation (see: GK/SW conflict for an event where the Inq considered it not worth the trouble... though that lone Inq did get *quite* the forces behind him.)

You've literally been arguing exactly what you just said you aren't arguing.

If a given Inquisitor has the legitimate need of it, there is next to nothing in the galaxy he or she cannot command. Naval assets, Imperial Guard, Space Marines... all of this is under their purview, and there is literally *nothing* the Ecclesiarchy can do to stop them. Heck, there's nothing the High Lords of Terra can do to stop them, in the sense of countermanding the order. Lord General Whats-his-face? Falls under the authority of the Inquisition. To refuse their order is to commit heresy and to act counter to the authority of the Emperor.

Psienesis is quite correct. As far as authority goes, nothing trumps an Inquisitor. The Skitarii, and a vast swathe of the Mechanicus, would likely side with the Fabricator General. But to do so, short of convincing fellow Inquisitors to denounce their colleague, would mean being considered traitors by the rest of the Imperium.

A Lord Inquisitor leading a mighty armada against the FG holed up in Mars, the holiest place in the galaxy to the entire Machine Cult? It would spark off a civil war that would bring the Imperium to its knees. If the Lord Inquisitor had one whit of wisdom, and you get make Inquisitor without some cunning, he'd try assassins again and again rather than risk a public confrontation that would imperil the Imperium itself. That said, he has the -authority- to do so.

 Ketara wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Inq isn't going to roll up to Mars by himself.

Why not? If the Inquisition is the ultimate power here, and normal soldiers just swoon at the production of badge as you seem to think, surely that's all he needs to do, right? He'll wander through the halls of Mars, and demand everyone he meets follow him and obey him. Right?

Idiots don't become Interrogators, let alone Inquisitors.

If an Inquisitor suspects a Planetary Governor of heresy, he or she will know that they can't necessarily rely on the PDF or Palace Guard to back them up even if they flash the badge.

It should be pointed out that the Ad Mech is, technically, an entirely independent galactic political entity that is simply allied with the Imperium, and they both have a hopelessly intertwined codependency that neither can exist without the other.

An Inquisitor wouldn't get very far on Mars if he went around demanding stuff.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
One, the HL do not command the Custodes. At all. They serve the Emperor, alone.

I believe he said ask, not command.

Two, the Inquisition has the authority to do exactly as I've described in every event. They also have the authority to do as you've described. However, as you said, authority =/= ability which I have never claimed was synonymous. Can the Inquisition obtain the ability to do something like this? Yes, probably, but would depend on the specifics of the situation (see: GK/SW conflict for an event where the Inq considered it not worth the trouble... though that lone Inq did get *quite* the forces behind him.)

You've literally been arguing exactly what you just said you aren't arguing.

If a given Inquisitor has the legitimate need of it, there is next to nothing in the galaxy he or she cannot command. Naval assets, Imperial Guard, Space Marines... all of this is under their purview, and there is literally *nothing* the Ecclesiarchy can do to stop them. Heck, there's nothing the High Lords of Terra can do to stop them, in the sense of countermanding the order. Lord General Whats-his-face? Falls under the authority of the Inquisition. To refuse their order is to commit heresy and to act counter to the authority of the Emperor.

You're misinterpreting. The Inquisition has the authority to investigate effectively anyone in the galaxy. As part of that authority, they can command any resource they require. Those resources are what is going to grant them the ability to investigate the "hard targets". If the Inquisition has a solid case of tech-heresy in the AdMech, at any level, they have the authority to obtain any resources they require to grant them the ability to prosecute that case. It is not that the authority makes the individual Inquisitor literally las-proof, but having a million Guardsmen, two Titan Legions and their Tech-Guard, an Astartes Chapter and a Sector Battlefleet in front of them sure does improve their Save. The people in command of those resources? They have no need or, in fact, authorization to "check with HQ". The person standing in front of them with the rosette is higher ranking than anyone they would call. Some Admiral of the Fleet doesn't have a direct line to the Inquisition. The Inquisition simply does not function like that.

The example I was, in the above quote, specifically referencing was an Inquiry to the Fabricator-General. Which, obviously, would be a very hard target... but, if the evidence were damning enough, not an impossible one. As we saw in Titanicus, there's always some sub-faction of the AdMech looking to gain some favor, rise in power, gain influence and authority. If the Inquisition had the evidence to prove the FabGen had gone Dark Mechanicus or something, then the other factions of the Tech-Priests would be only too happy to assist.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It should be pointed out that the Ad Mech is, technically, an entirely independent galactic political entity that is simply allied with the Imperium, and they both have a hopelessly intertwined codependency that neither can exist without the other.

An Inquisitor wouldn't get very far on Mars if he went around demanding stuff.

I agree with Grey Templar here, a fabricator general would be difficult to arrest by just flashing a badge and not having any evidence, as mars is not officially under Imperial Law. And the mars leaders are a tight group, by brute force the inquisition would be tempting fate and could start an open war with Mars, only by subterfuge and secrecy or with the help with an fabricator general that has beef with the target would the inquisitor succeed.

The Inquisition has indeed no authority over the AdMech, because the AdMech is not a part of the Imperium of Man, but a seperate empire in alliance with it. The AdMech has its own ways to deal with hereteks.
What an Inquisitor would likely do, rather than wage war on all the ancient power of Mars is just contacting the relevant authorities or his allies within the AdMech so they can take action.
And really, Titan Legions are not going to obey an Inquisitor over their own FabGen ( maybe unless they have some major beef with him), and neither are they under any obligation to do so.

An Inquisitor doesn't get his power by just swinging around his badge to every random commander in sight, he does so by being smart and picking his allies with care. He builds up a network of people loyal enough to him to aid him even if he goes against their superior. If you go to any random commander with your plans, that is the fastest way to end up dead. Legal authority counts for little when the other guy has more guns, it is all about trust and loyalty. As an Inquisitor, you need to be certain that IG commander in front of you is going to be loyal to you and not someone else. You need to get him to actually trust you over his superiors, even over the representative of Him on Earth, not just by shoving your badge in his face and telling him to obey because you have authoritah!

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Inquisition has indeed no authority over the AdMech, because the AdMech is not a part of the Imperium of Man, but a seperate empire in alliance with it. The AdMech has its own ways to deal with hereteks.
What an Inquisitor would likely do, rather than wage war on all the ancient power of Mars is just contacting the relevant authorities or his allies within the AdMech so they can take action.
And really, Titan Legions are not going to obey an Inquisitor over their own FabGen ( maybe unless they have some major beef with him), and neither are they under any obligation to do so.

An Inquisitor doesn't get his power by just swinging around his badge to every random commander in sight, he does so by being smart and picking his allies with care. He builds up a network of people loyal enough to him to aid him even if he goes against their superior. If you go to any random commander with your plans, that is the fastest way to end up dead. Legal authority counts for little when the other guy has more guns, it is all about trust and loyalty. As an Inquisitor, you need to be certain that IG commander in front of you is going to be loyal to you and not someone else. You need to get him to actually trust you over his superiors, even over the representative of Him on Earth, not just by shoving your badge in his face and telling him to obey because you have authoritah!

Also half the armies of the Martian Admech and such are basicly cyborgs running on programming, i doubt they would reconise a inquisitor over the command protocols there inbuilt with.

Only one you could use it on is the higher members who control the codes. Skitari Vanguard 205089089H Delta is basicly part servitor and no longer human capable of independent thought to higher levels.
thats counting that your allowed access to the tech priests deep in there fortified forge complex s.

The Martiain Admec id say come under the list of organisations force is definitely not the way, it requires far more skill, conections, contacts and softer skills than just a rosette and a gun to the head.