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Perhaps a better way to position them is "authority" versus "influence". The Ecclesiarchy wields more influence than any other organization in the Imperium, hands down. It touches the lives of every single Imperial Citizen in some way every day of every year, and the effects of that influence is something that the Inquisition needs to be aware of at all times.

And that includes the influence that the Ecclesiarchy has over the Inquisition itself.

Indeed, with the Puritan factions and the like, though I'm sure that influence works the other way, too, though perhaps not on such a large scale.

 Psienesis wrote:
Perhaps a better way to position them is "authority" versus "influence". The Ecclesiarchy wields more influence than any other organization in the Imperium, hands down. It touches the lives of every single Imperial Citizen in some way every day of every year, and the effects of that influence is something that the Inquisition needs to be aware of at all times.

Plus some departments are need to know only. And then your exacuted after job done.
They might know inquisition. And that there someone you never ever want to meet but your average hive dweller will know there religious side far better but not know anything about the universe outside there hive block.

So all considered, the inquisition to some may be dread myth, or a hearsay abouyt a event in another sector but not know what they are first hand. Some unlucky individuals will know but I'd say there more a whispered secret police force, no one ever wants to meet and your average citizen fears them but out of fear of unknown power and dread than awed respect.

However all know the religion, it has shrines and temples from the highest spires to tiny run down hiver chapels with a single priest and a few hand me down alter bits that no longer where needed from a grander one.

So all in all it has the far greater influence over little people general lives.
Inquisition has a far greater pull but they never see it. All in shadows they never will know. out of those two the citizen will see one thing, the eltite another but to comepete, no inefficient, to utilise the structure in place, much more effective.


The wisest route I'd say I'd for inquisition to play of peoples faith and manipulate them using a framework that's already well bedded in. let the network the religion already has pass on your message to general population and provides many many spies if manipulated discreetly,

Oh, indeed. I've never claimed the Inquisition has more influence over the Imperium than the Ecclesiarchy, that would be ludicrous. In terms of enacting the general populace of the Imperium to do something or to change something, the Ecclesiarchy is the best tool for that job. Not only does every Imperial Citizen go to church (sometimes several times a week, based on practices of individual worlds) but it also has the tools to enforce religious/morality laws in the population centers... though in many of these cases, the Inquisition will be involved in monitoring the activities of the Ecclesiarchy.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yes, but the Realpolitick of the situation doesn't change the reality that the High Lords are not actually in charge of the Inquisition. The founding of the Inquisition clearly states, either directly from the Emperor or from his Voice, Malcador the Sigilite, that the Inquisition will have no barriers to their mission and no stays to their activities.

And the Inquisition is really quite good at enforcing its own authority when it needs to. While a single Inquisitor is beholden to the rest of the organization and his/her own assets and resources, as an organization they can command anything they need to get the job done.

Theoretically, that's true. However, practically, if they just bully everyone around, they'll find themselves unable to do anything remotely close to their stated objective. As Iron Captain previously stated, starting a feud with a single High Lord would lead to a crippling drop in Inquisitorial power.

How do you figure?

Single High Lord has beef with Inquisition.

Inquisition gets tired of it. Discovers that, shock and horror, that High Lord had fallen into worship of the Dread Gods! Heretic!

Single High Lord is burned at the stake as a traitor.

Other High Lords, observing this, are reminded why it is unwise to feth with the Inquisition.


Another way to look at it:

The Emperor placed the Inquisition above all men, to guard the Imperium against threats both internal and external, in the cause of purity.
Ergo, to resist the Inquisition is to resist the Will and Word of the Emperor. That makes you a Heretic. The Inquisition is tasked with the persecution of Heretics.

The problem is that the Inquisition is far from a monolithic entity and it's hard to imagine a non heretic high lord who really has a beef with the Inquisition rather than a specific Inquisitor or a specific faction. Which is a whole different issue, as a lot of an individual inquisitors awesome theoretical legal authority is nullified on a highly politicised world like terra where other peers of the imperium and Inquisitors are automatically involved.

hate the ecclesiarch because he has a dodgy beard and took the last sandwich at the last meeting? What are your options?

Declare him a heretic? For someone like that on a world like that, needs the conclaves backing. Which means actual evidence and even then some factions may well back the church on general principles unless it's really damming.

Have him killed? By whom? A 'real' assassin needs senatorum aproval and he sits on that, and his personal security is going to be a match for anything short of such.

Repeatedly make trouble? A lot of people are going to consider you the heretic if you do - including organisations who aren't subject to your authority, other inquisitors for one and (on terra) the adeptus custodes for another.

Other Inquisitors are most certainly subject to the authority of an Inquisitor. It's a self-policing organization.

 Psienesis wrote:
Other Inquisitors are most certainly subject to the authority of an Inquisitor. It's a self-policing organization.

yes not monolithic, but mess with one inquisitor, your draw the ire of alot more than one. some of the Lords and Senior figures are very powerful on there own, yet alone with there allies.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's a self-policing organization.

Aye, and that's what keeps an individual Inquisitor from requisitioning a Battleship just for taking him to the liqour store. He can do it by showing his credentials but his peers will not stand for it. So after a few battleship tours someone will arrive to get the guy into custody or alternatively put a bolt shell into his head.

Which isn't at all part of this discussion. We're talking about the authority one body has in relation to the other, and the highest authority yet rests on the Inquisition.

If a given Inquisitor has the legitimate need of it, there is next to nothing in the galaxy he or she cannot command. Naval assets, Imperial Guard, Space Marines... all of this is under their purview, and there is literally *nothing* the Ecclesiarchy can do to stop them. Heck, there's nothing the High Lords of Terra can do to stop them, in the sense of countermanding the order. Lord General Whats-his-face? Falls under the authority of the Inquisition. To refuse their order is to commit heresy and to act counter to the authority of the Emperor.

People are getting caught up in the idea of an Inquisitor doing it "for the laughs"... but it is a rare, rare, *rare* Inquisitor who would even consider that as a possibility. It's not like they grab these people from some under-Hive bar and hand them a rosette.

 Psienesis wrote:
Which isn't at all part of this discussion. We're talking about the authority one body has in relation to the other, and the highest authority yet rests on the Inquisition.

If a given Inquisitor has the legitimate need of it, there is next to nothing in the galaxy he or she cannot command. Naval assets, Imperial Guard, Space Marines... all of this is under their purview, and there is literally *nothing* the Ecclesiarchy can do to stop them. Heck, there's nothing the High Lords of Terra can do to stop them, in the sense of countermanding the order. Lord General Whats-his-face? Falls under the authority of the Inquisition. To refuse their order is to commit heresy and to act counter to the authority of the Emperor.

People are getting caught up in the idea of an Inquisitor doing it "for the laughs"... but it is a rare, rare, *rare* Inquisitor who would even consider that as a possibility. It's not like they grab these people from some under-Hive bar and hand them a rosette.

I think you're getting a little caught up in assuming legal power is the same as actual power.

Let's put your assumption to the test. The Fabricator General makes trouble for the Inquisitorial representative. The Inquisitorial representative, convinced in his purity and righteousness, decides to have him arrested and executed. He arrives on Mars, and demands that the nearest group of Skitarii accompany him to arrest the High Lord.

What happens is the Skitarii push him into a waiting room and get further orders. If the Inquisitor demands they obey him and proceed with him to the Fabricator General, the Inquisitorial representative will most likely find out that his authority does not extend to commanding those skitarii in reality, especially when the orders get downloaded (and they will do, before he gets close, even if it's just in the procedure of locating the Fabricator General) to keep him the hell away from the Fabricator General. If our erstwhile Inquisitor tries to force his way through, he will most likely be gunned down as a madman before he gets close. Because a Inquisitoral rosette is a poor shield for taking down a High Lord.

If he instead goes to Naval and Imperial Guard High Lords to get the military backing to assault Mars and remove him by force (because the resources required will be immense enough that you can't build up a force one commandeered regiment at a time), they'll demand to know precisely why he's trying to take out the Fabricator General, and will need a damn sight more proof than 'Because I say so and have a flashy =I= sign, therefore obey me'.

Such a scenario would play out in the cases of an attempted removal of any of militarily responsible High Lords. The Inquisitorial Representative simply does not have the resources (or time to gather them) to launch a military campaign large enough to depose the heads of one of the main services without recourse to the other heads of the military orientated services. And if they refuse him, or actively oppose him, our Inquisitorial representative may find he's the one getting deposed.

Inq isn't going to roll up to Mars by himself. Inq convinced the FG is a traitor is going to get the backup first, and then advance, whether that backup takes the form of Space Marines, IG, or other high-ranking Tech-Priests, the leaders of a few Titan legions, a half billion skitarri, or whatever else he needs.

Or he's going to black bag the FG (or have an Ordo Assassinorum resource do it) and no one's the wiser.

Inq doesn't need to go to the HL of the Deparmento Munitorum. Just goes to a Sector Commander or a Lord General (rather than the Lord Solar). Gets an entire Crusade worth of resources once he presents his evidence. Then rolls to Mars.

Alternately, has his evidence, and denounces the FG in front of the HLoT. They'll back him right then and there, with relatively minor fuss.

 Psienesis wrote:
Inq isn't going to roll up to Mars by himself.

Why not? If the Inquisition is the ultimate power here, and normal soldiers just swoon at the production of badge as you seem to think, surely that's all he needs to do, right? He'll wander through the halls of Mars, and demand everyone he meets follow him and obey him. Right?

Inq convinced the FG is a traitor is going to get the backup first, and then advance, whether that backup takes the form of Space Marines, IG, or other high-ranking Tech-Priests, the leaders of a few Titan legions, a half billion skitarri, or whatever else he needs.

Or he's going to black bag the FG (or have an Ordo Assassinorum resource do it) and no one's the wiser.

Inq doesn't need to go to the HL of the Deparmento Munitorum. Just goes to a Sector Commander or a Lord General (rather than the Lord Solar). Gets an entire Crusade worth of resources once he presents his evidence. Then rolls to Mars.

And you don't think that before laying siege to MARS, the aforementioned sector commander won't shoot off a message to his boss? You think he won't insist on getting orders before collaborating with his Navy counterpart about throwing around a vast army just outside Terra?

Pull the other one. If the Inquisitorial Representative starts trying to move gigantic fleets around inside the Terran system, and then trying to remove/execute highly senior officers for needing confirmation from higher up first, the Inquisitorial representative, will again, not make it very far.

Alternately, has his evidence, and denounces the FG in front of the HLoT. They'll back him right then and there, with relatively minor fuss.

Thank you for proving my point, namely that he'd require the other High Lords to back him before whisking the Fabricator General off. Because from what you've been saying thus far, the Inquisitorial Representative has the power to bend the Fabricator General over his knee and spank him, whilst threatening to cap anyone who disagrees with his action.

If the other High Lords tell the Inquisitorial Representative to pack it in, and they're not convinced by his evidence, the Inquisitorial representative sits down, shuts up, and starts thinking about nominating his successor. He doesn't get to override all the other Lords, and if he tried, they'd ask the Custodes to confine him as a madman.

One, the HL do not command the Custodes. At all. They serve the Emperor, alone.

Two, the Inquisition has the authority to do exactly as I've described in every event. They also have the authority to do as you've described. However, as you said, authority =/= ability which I have never claimed was synonymous. Can the Inquisition obtain the ability to do something like this? Yes, probably, but would depend on the specifics of the situation (see: GK/SW conflict for an event where the Inq considered it not worth the trouble... though that lone Inq did get *quite* the forces behind him.)

Three, the Inq doesn't act on shoddy information. As rather significantly detailed in Abnett's books, an Inquisitor can spend years, even decades, researching and gathering evidence for a case. When they act? Their evidence is compelling, overwhelming even, especially when taking actions against those with some degree or modicum of influence and power in Imperial society. No Inq who would be investigating the FG is going to be some no-name with a Rosette, it's going to be a Lord Inquisitor with centuries of experience and *several* high-profile Inquiries under his/her belt. If they're making a move against the FG? They're doing so because someone else within the AdMech brought it to their attention, and they've spent *quite* a long time gathering evidence. That's simply how the Inquisition works. They're a secret police organization, in the main. They don't simply disappear people for grins and giggles.

 Psienesis wrote:
One, the HL do not command the Custodes. At all. They serve the Emperor, alone.

I believe he said ask, not command.

Two, the Inquisition has the authority to do exactly as I've described in every event. They also have the authority to do as you've described. However, as you said, authority =/= ability which I have never claimed was synonymous. Can the Inquisition obtain the ability to do something like this? Yes, probably, but would depend on the specifics of the situation (see: GK/SW conflict for an event where the Inq considered it not worth the trouble... though that lone Inq did get *quite* the forces behind him.)

You've literally been arguing exactly what you just said you aren't arguing.

If a given Inquisitor has the legitimate need of it, there is next to nothing in the galaxy he or she cannot command. Naval assets, Imperial Guard, Space Marines... all of this is under their purview, and there is literally *nothing* the Ecclesiarchy can do to stop them. Heck, there's nothing the High Lords of Terra can do to stop them, in the sense of countermanding the order. Lord General Whats-his-face? Falls under the authority of the Inquisition. To refuse their order is to commit heresy and to act counter to the authority of the Emperor.

Psienesis is quite correct. As far as authority goes, nothing trumps an Inquisitor. The Skitarii, and a vast swathe of the Mechanicus, would likely side with the Fabricator General. But to do so, short of convincing fellow Inquisitors to denounce their colleague, would mean being considered traitors by the rest of the Imperium.

A Lord Inquisitor leading a mighty armada against the FG holed up in Mars, the holiest place in the galaxy to the entire Machine Cult? It would spark off a civil war that would bring the Imperium to its knees. If the Lord Inquisitor had one whit of wisdom, and you get make Inquisitor without some cunning, he'd try assassins again and again rather than risk a public confrontation that would imperil the Imperium itself. That said, he has the -authority- to do so.

 Ketara wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Inq isn't going to roll up to Mars by himself.

Why not? If the Inquisition is the ultimate power here, and normal soldiers just swoon at the production of badge as you seem to think, surely that's all he needs to do, right? He'll wander through the halls of Mars, and demand everyone he meets follow him and obey him. Right?

Idiots don't become Interrogators, let alone Inquisitors.

If an Inquisitor suspects a Planetary Governor of heresy, he or she will know that they can't necessarily rely on the PDF or Palace Guard to back them up even if they flash the badge.

It should be pointed out that the Ad Mech is, technically, an entirely independent galactic political entity that is simply allied with the Imperium, and they both have a hopelessly intertwined codependency that neither can exist without the other.

An Inquisitor wouldn't get very far on Mars if he went around demanding stuff.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
One, the HL do not command the Custodes. At all. They serve the Emperor, alone.

I believe he said ask, not command.

Two, the Inquisition has the authority to do exactly as I've described in every event. They also have the authority to do as you've described. However, as you said, authority =/= ability which I have never claimed was synonymous. Can the Inquisition obtain the ability to do something like this? Yes, probably, but would depend on the specifics of the situation (see: GK/SW conflict for an event where the Inq considered it not worth the trouble... though that lone Inq did get *quite* the forces behind him.)

You've literally been arguing exactly what you just said you aren't arguing.

If a given Inquisitor has the legitimate need of it, there is next to nothing in the galaxy he or she cannot command. Naval assets, Imperial Guard, Space Marines... all of this is under their purview, and there is literally *nothing* the Ecclesiarchy can do to stop them. Heck, there's nothing the High Lords of Terra can do to stop them, in the sense of countermanding the order. Lord General Whats-his-face? Falls under the authority of the Inquisition. To refuse their order is to commit heresy and to act counter to the authority of the Emperor.

You're misinterpreting. The Inquisition has the authority to investigate effectively anyone in the galaxy. As part of that authority, they can command any resource they require. Those resources are what is going to grant them the ability to investigate the "hard targets". If the Inquisition has a solid case of tech-heresy in the AdMech, at any level, they have the authority to obtain any resources they require to grant them the ability to prosecute that case. It is not that the authority makes the individual Inquisitor literally las-proof, but having a million Guardsmen, two Titan Legions and their Tech-Guard, an Astartes Chapter and a Sector Battlefleet in front of them sure does improve their Save. The people in command of those resources? They have no need or, in fact, authorization to "check with HQ". The person standing in front of them with the rosette is higher ranking than anyone they would call. Some Admiral of the Fleet doesn't have a direct line to the Inquisition. The Inquisition simply does not function like that.

The example I was, in the above quote, specifically referencing was an Inquiry to the Fabricator-General. Which, obviously, would be a very hard target... but, if the evidence were damning enough, not an impossible one. As we saw in Titanicus, there's always some sub-faction of the AdMech looking to gain some favor, rise in power, gain influence and authority. If the Inquisition had the evidence to prove the FabGen had gone Dark Mechanicus or something, then the other factions of the Tech-Priests would be only too happy to assist.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It should be pointed out that the Ad Mech is, technically, an entirely independent galactic political entity that is simply allied with the Imperium, and they both have a hopelessly intertwined codependency that neither can exist without the other.

An Inquisitor wouldn't get very far on Mars if he went around demanding stuff.

I agree with Grey Templar here, a fabricator general would be difficult to arrest by just flashing a badge and not having any evidence, as mars is not officially under Imperial Law. And the mars leaders are a tight group, by brute force the inquisition would be tempting fate and could start an open war with Mars, only by subterfuge and secrecy or with the help with an fabricator general that has beef with the target would the inquisitor succeed.

The Inquisition has indeed no authority over the AdMech, because the AdMech is not a part of the Imperium of Man, but a seperate empire in alliance with it. The AdMech has its own ways to deal with hereteks.
What an Inquisitor would likely do, rather than wage war on all the ancient power of Mars is just contacting the relevant authorities or his allies within the AdMech so they can take action.
And really, Titan Legions are not going to obey an Inquisitor over their own FabGen ( maybe unless they have some major beef with him), and neither are they under any obligation to do so.

An Inquisitor doesn't get his power by just swinging around his badge to every random commander in sight, he does so by being smart and picking his allies with care. He builds up a network of people loyal enough to him to aid him even if he goes against their superior. If you go to any random commander with your plans, that is the fastest way to end up dead. Legal authority counts for little when the other guy has more guns, it is all about trust and loyalty. As an Inquisitor, you need to be certain that IG commander in front of you is going to be loyal to you and not someone else. You need to get him to actually trust you over his superiors, even over the representative of Him on Earth, not just by shoving your badge in his face and telling him to obey because you have authoritah!

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Inquisition has indeed no authority over the AdMech, because the AdMech is not a part of the Imperium of Man, but a seperate empire in alliance with it. The AdMech has its own ways to deal with hereteks.
What an Inquisitor would likely do, rather than wage war on all the ancient power of Mars is just contacting the relevant authorities or his allies within the AdMech so they can take action.
And really, Titan Legions are not going to obey an Inquisitor over their own FabGen ( maybe unless they have some major beef with him), and neither are they under any obligation to do so.

An Inquisitor doesn't get his power by just swinging around his badge to every random commander in sight, he does so by being smart and picking his allies with care. He builds up a network of people loyal enough to him to aid him even if he goes against their superior. If you go to any random commander with your plans, that is the fastest way to end up dead. Legal authority counts for little when the other guy has more guns, it is all about trust and loyalty. As an Inquisitor, you need to be certain that IG commander in front of you is going to be loyal to you and not someone else. You need to get him to actually trust you over his superiors, even over the representative of Him on Earth, not just by shoving your badge in his face and telling him to obey because you have authoritah!

Also half the armies of the Martian Admech and such are basicly cyborgs running on programming, i doubt they would reconise a inquisitor over the command protocols there inbuilt with.

Only one you could use it on is the higher members who control the codes. Skitari Vanguard 205089089H Delta is basicly part servitor and no longer human capable of independent thought to higher levels.
thats counting that your allowed access to the tech priests deep in there fortified forge complex s.

The Martiain Admec id say come under the list of organisations force is definitely not the way, it requires far more skill, conections, contacts and softer skills than just a rosette and a gun to the head.