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 Psienesis wrote:
Yes, but the Realpolitick of the situation doesn't change the reality that the High Lords are not actually in charge of the Inquisition. The founding of the Inquisition clearly states, either directly from the Emperor or from his Voice, Malcador the Sigilite, that the Inquisition will have no barriers to their mission and no stays to their activities.

And the Inquisition is really quite good at enforcing its own authority when it needs to. While a single Inquisitor is beholden to the rest of the organization and his/her own assets and resources, as an organization they can command anything they need to get the job done.

The High Lords are not in charge of the Inquisition, no one is in charge of the Inquisition. But neither is the Inquisition in charge of the High Lords. And yes, the Emperor may have said that (or he may not, there are multiple stories regarding the founding of the Inquisition), but the Emperor is as good as dead now, so what he said or not is completely subject to interpretation by the High Lords, who are to rule in the Emperor's place. The High Lords, and the High Lords alone are allowed to interpret the will of the Emperor and to enact it. And you bet they will always interpret it in their favour.
Again, the Inquisition has no power of its own. No guard commander will want to work with a shady guy waving a symbol around demanding stuff if he has been given personal orders by the Lord Commander Militant himself that he is to refuse all demands made by the Inquisition. Similar with spaceships. The Inquisition has precious little ships of its own, most Inquisitors just have to hitch a ride on whatever vessel comes along if they want to go somewhere.
In practice there are a huge lots of barriers to an Inquisitor's mission, and the only way to solve them is to cooperate with others. And this makes sense, because it keeps the Imperium in balance. All Imperial organisations have need of the other organisations in order to function, none of them has dominance over the others. The Inquisition is no different in that regard, which is good, otherwise the Imperium would have effectively been a dictatorship by the Inquisition, and if the institution would ever have become corrupted, the entire Imperium would have fallen with it. After the Horus Heresy, the Imperium has always been very careful in ensuring no one individual or organisation holds too much power.

but the Emperor is as good as dead now, so what he said or not is completely subject to interpretation by the High Lords, who are to rule in the Emperor's place.

And that is exactly how the Inquisition remains in power by the letter and spirit of the law (rather than force of arms). The High Lords likewise have no better claim to power than "The Emperor said so". If the HLoT want to try to say, "The Inquisition doesn't have rank because the Emperor isn't here and we say they don't", they'd find themselves drawn and quartered. The HLoT exist because the Emperor gave them jobs.

This, of course, setting aside the Emperor's Tarot for the moment, which is remarked as being a method the HLoT (and others) use to divine the Emperor's Will.

The Inquisition has its own naval assets (including the Black Ships) but, as you say, it's not intended to rival the Imperial Navy. It doesn't need to. If the Inquisition needs naval assets, it gets naval assets. Or Imperial Guard. Or Space Marines. Or Sororitas. Or whatever else they need.

 Psienesis wrote:

but the Emperor is as good as dead now, so what he said or not is completely subject to interpretation by the High Lords, who are to rule in the Emperor's place.

And that is exactly how the Inquisition remains in power by the letter and spirit of the law (rather than force of arms). The High Lords likewise have no better claim to power than "The Emperor said so". If the HLoT want to try to say, "The Inquisition doesn't have rank because the Emperor isn't here and we say they don't", they'd find themselves drawn and quartered. The HLoT exist because the Emperor gave them jobs.

This, of course, setting aside the Emperor's Tarot for the moment, which is remarked as being a method the HLoT (and others) use to divine the Emperor's Will.

The Inquisition has its own naval assets (including the Black Ships) but, as you say, it's not intended to rival the Imperial Navy. It doesn't need to. If the Inquisition needs naval assets, it gets naval assets. Or Imperial Guard. Or Space Marines. Or Sororitas. Or whatever else they need.

Yes, but they can't get Imperial Guard without cooperation of the Lord Commander Militant, nor Sororitas without cooperation with the Ecclessiarch. All those assets are loyal to their own commanders rather than the Inquisition, and only cooperate with the Inquisition because they are on the same side and the Inquisition do the Emperor's work. If an Inquisitor pisses off the wrong people however, they will no longer be on the same side, and thus deprived of most assets.

Also, no one actually knows whether it was the Emperor who gave the Inquisition its authority, because no one was present at that moment apart from Malcador. All it would take for the HLoT to take out the Inquisition is to declare their story (and thus their authority) a fabrication. Who would question the High Lords, who know the Emperor's will and rule in his stead? The Inquisition can only do its job as long as it has the approval of the guys who hold the true power (armies and spacefleets). Of course, a situation like this is unlikely to happen, because everyone sees the necessity of the Inquisition. Without the Inquisition, the Imperium would fall apart. Besides, the Inquisition is smart enough that when they need a High Lord removed, they will make sure they have the approval of the other High Lords. The High Lords don't speak with one voice after all, they are often fierce rivals.

Yeah they can. They simply go around the LCM.

Inquisition needs Guardsmen? Walk up to the closest Regiment, backed by your private army of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, flash the Rosette, "By command of the Emperor, you and your men now serve the Inquisition."

No Colonel, no Commissar, no Guardsman is going to refuse the order of an Inquisitor. They know who these people are, and they know what they are authorized to do (which is everything). Skip around Terra completely, especially if you think there's corruption on the highest level.

Repeat as needed. Now you have millions of soldiers.

Write a letter: "Dear Chapter Master of Whatever-the-Feth Latest Founding Astartes Chapter, the Ordos of His Holy Inquisition have need of your services."

Now you have Space Marines.

Fly up to ships of the Imperial Navy. Board the bridge with a few Space Marines from Whatever-the-Feth Latest Founding Astartes Chapter, flash the Rosette, "Admiral, you and your fleet now serve the Emperor through the agency of His Ordos of the Holy Inquisition."

Repeat as needed.

Now you have an armada, Space Marines, and Guardsmen, and all of it completely within your remit as an Inquisitor.

By that point, given that said inquisitor would have drained a healthy portion of a sectors arms and manpower, you can be damn sure that other members of the Inquisition would be paying attention. Most likely to ensure the Inquisitor isn't just dicking around with his personal army, or worse using it for malign purposes.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yeah they can. They simply go around the LCM.

Inquisition needs Guardsmen? Walk up to the closest Regiment, backed by your private army of Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, flash the Rosette, "By command of the Emperor, you and your men now serve the Inquisition."

No Colonel, no Commissar, no Guardsman is going to refuse the order of an Inquisitor. They know who these people are, and they know what they are authorized to do (which is everything). Skip around Terra completely, especially if you think there's corruption on the highest level.

Yes, and if said Colonel has just received orders from no one less but the Lord Commander Militant of Terra himself to refuse the commands of the Inquisition, that Rosette isn't going to do anything. The loyalty of the IG is with its commanders, not with the Inquisition.
If you suspect the Lord Commander Militant to be corrupted, it would be a bad idea to walk up right to his soldiers and try to get them work for you. Even if the Lord Commander is not aware of your activities and they have not yet received orders from Terra, they are bound to get those as you openly move against the Lord Commander. And when they have to choose sides between this shady guy claiming to be an Inquisitor and Holy Terra itself, I would not really count on their loyalty towards you.

No, an Inquisitor trying to get rid of a High Lord should be far more subtle. He will likely make a deal with those High Lords that are also opposed to the one that he tries to remove, and try to get support from at least a few of the Imperium's major powers, such as the AdMech, Munitorum, Assassinorum or Ecclessiarchy. Alternatively, he could recruit a Chapter of Space Marines and have them drop right in to elimate the High Lord directly with a surprise strike, but that would likely upset the other High Lords and could even lead to war as the defenders of Terra move against this apparent attack.
No, High Lords are too powerful to be removed by force. Better to get them out with politicking or have the Assassinorum and Inquisition set up an assassination.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Yes, and if said Colonel has just received orders from no one less but the Lord Commander Militant of Terra himself to refuse the commands of the Inquisition, that Rosette isn't going to do anything. The loyalty of the IG is with its commanders, not with the Inquisition.

The vast majority of the IG would have little clue who that is. It's simply too far above their heads, for most concerned their supreme commander would be the Sector Commander.

Even IF that particular Colonel recognised that this would be a legitimate order from a High Lord of Terra, the answer of whether or not he would comply is a question of reality, politics, personal beliefs and circumstances. Legally speaking though, the Inquisitor should technically win out.

 Psienesis wrote:
Now you have an armada, Space Marines, and Guardsmen, and all of it completely within your remit as an Inquisitor.

Which is ofc true, but an Inquisitor who does this without a bloody good reason won't remain an Inquisitor very long. Most likely he wasn't made an Inquisitor to begin with. That's a lot of the Emperor's fine warriors and ships not doing their normal duties, and an Inquisitor has to be aware not only of his present mission but also of other issues facing the IoM.

A more reasonable approach would be asking the local commander what forces he'd use for such-and-such a mission, then request those be made available.

 Humble Guardsman wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Yes, and if said Colonel has just received orders from no one less but the Lord Commander Militant of Terra himself to refuse the commands of the Inquisition, that Rosette isn't going to do anything. The loyalty of the IG is with its commanders, not with the Inquisition.

The vast majority of the IG would have little clue who that is. It's simply too far above their heads, for most concerned their supreme commander would be the Sector Commander.

Even IF that particular Colonel recognised that this would be a legitimate order from a High Lord of Terra, the answer of whether or not he would comply is a question of reality, politics, personal beliefs and circumstances. Legally speaking though, the Inquisitor should technically win out.

The High Lord of Terra would not bother with contacting individual colonels. He has a command structure for that. He gives the orders to his Segmentum Commanders, who pass it on to the Sector Commanders until it finally ends up with individual Guardsmen. And I am pretty sure there would be at least one page in the Uplifting Primer explaining the command structure, so that Guardsmen know whose orders to follow. And if a colonel would doubt or refuse his orders, well, that is why the regimental Commissar is always present for a summary execution and to ensure orders are followed to the letter. And if said Commissar has just heard word from Terra that the Inquisition (or a specific Inquisitor) has fallen to heresy, he would probably like a word with that Inquisitor too. In that case I guess it would come down to whose authority and claims of the other being corrupted are more convinving.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The High Lord of Terra would not bother with contacting individual colonels. He has a command structure for that. He gives the orders to his Segmentum Commanders, who pass it on to the Sector Commanders until it finally ends up with individual Guardsmen. And I am pretty sure there would be at least one page in the Uplifting Primer explaining the command structure, so that Guardsmen know whose orders to follow. And if a colonel would doubt or refuse his orders, well, that is why the regimental Commissar is always present for a summary execution and to ensure orders are followed to the letter.

And a Sector Commander has not one whit of authority before members of the Inquisition. It does the inquisition no good to piss such powerful individuals off, so any Inquisitor would tread lightly, but they have the authority to overrule even specific orders of Segmentum Command if they see fit.

And if said Commissar has just heard word from Terra that the Inquisition (or a specific Inquisitor) has fallen to heresy, he would probably like a word with that Inquisitor too. In that case I guess it would come down to whose authority and claims of the other being corrupted are more convincing.

Isn't that a little far-fetched? Regardless, legally speaking the Inquisition trumps the natural chain of command here.

True but the inquisition has to be polite at tilmes, guard you can bully into doing what you want no problem, do that to the space marines and you may not leave alive. Admech are very powerful, and respect would get you alot further than a bolt pistol.

A one has to use diplomacy, tact and political games as well as there assigned authority and threats.

Some forces are too powerful or proud just to bully

Remember: The life expectancy in the field of a textbook Commissar is roughly two weeks... because that's how long it usually takes his unit to get sick of his constant culling of their own side and shoot him in the back during battle.

The same thing goes for Inquisitors who throw their weight around unnecessarily.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Remember: The life expectancy in the field of a textbook Commissar is roughly two weeks... because that's how long it usually takes his unit to get sick of his constant culling of their own side and shoot him in the back during battle.

The same thing goes for Inquisitors who throw their weight around unnecessarily.

You have a source for that? I don't doubt they suffer unusually high rates of friendly fire, but a specific life expectancy rate for them in general is something you should provide a reference for.

Source is Redemption Corps, although that was specifically about a Stormtrooper regiment - presumably, in a regular guard unit, the expectacy would be somewhat less.

Cain also made a comment to similar effect when he was explaining why he wanted to be the soldiers' friend rather than their bogeyman, but he's somewhat less of a reliable narrator.

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
By that point, given that said inquisitor would have drained a healthy portion of a sectors arms and manpower, you can be damn sure that other members of the Inquisition would be paying attention. Most likely to ensure the Inquisitor isn't just dicking around with his personal army, or worse using it for malign purposes.

Yes, exactly, but if the Inquisition, as a body, is on board with our example Inquisitor, there is no one with the legal authority to stop him/her from doing what they're about. Again, the Inquisition's authority is virtually limitless, and it is definitely not limited by the High Lords of Terra and, most importantly, everyone who is anyone knows this.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
By that point, given that said inquisitor would have drained a healthy portion of a sectors arms and manpower, you can be damn sure that other members of the Inquisition would be paying attention. Most likely to ensure the Inquisitor isn't just dicking around with his personal army, or worse using it for malign purposes.

Yes, exactly, but if the Inquisition, as a body, is on board with our example Inquisitor, there is no one with the legal authority to stop him/her from doing what they're about. Again, the Inquisition's authority is virtually limitless, and it is definitely not limited by the High Lords of Terra and, most importantly, everyone who is anyone knows this.

True but one who makes too many enemies or threatens too many powerful people without the resources to back them up, certain groups like space marines do not take well to threats in there own halls. there bound to meet a stickey end sooner or later and if they sent another to investigate theyd find one who let power go to head and insulted the wrong folk, ultimate power is one thing, knowing when to use it is quite another.

That's true, but is getting way outside the scope of this discussion.

The question was "who has more authority?" That answer is, was, and remains, the Inquisition.

It answers to no one but itself, while everyone in the Imperium ultimately answers to the Inquisition.

Considering that astropathic messages can take weeks/months/years to reach another astropath close to this colonel, and then it would require the colonel to check in with the astropath (like his email service), then it is highly unlikely that the Lord commander militant would get a message to said colonel faster than an inquisitor requisitioning them for service. At that point the colonel is in the hands of the inquisition, if he tries to pull out of his duties, he's burning as a heretic by orders of said inquisition.

Inquisitor with good reason > any high lord of terra

 Psienesis wrote:
That's true, but is getting way outside the scope of this discussion.

The question was "who has more authority?" That answer is, was, and remains, the Inquisition.

It answers to no one but itself, while everyone in the Imperium ultimately answers to the Inquisition.

True but it also illustrates ultimate power its not always the same in the field than on paper. Yes they have power over everyone bar a custodius who is only one who can say no thanks my jobs more important.

On a cardinal world home to a main order and religious sect even the inquisition might tread lighter than normaly. They have ultimate power over it but its smarter to be seen to work with them even if its totaly one sided. Aperences matter.

In theory ultimate power, in practice still but requires a slightly different approach to succeed. If a rougue inquisitor is too rougue, even the "weaker" might have grounds to arrest, but turn over to inqusitor to judge. Aka obvious heresy.

It's not that the Custodes have jobs that are "more important", it's that the Inquisition considers their loyalty unimpeachable, and so does not bring them under their purview (the Custodes are an internally-policing organization). The other person free of Inquiry is the Emperor, for obvious reasons.

While it might be easier and more convenient for an Inquisitor to "play nice" with certain other worthies in the Imperium, that's just the nature of politics. While a Cardinal might get his mitre bent if an Inquisitor started making demands of him, the Cardinal doesn't actually have the authority to rebuff them (again, assuming the Inq isn't just faffing about) and while he can certainly take steps to block or eliminate the Inq, all of those actions are Heresy.

Guarding the emperor is a pretty important duty, and there they also do monitor terrain threats so they might also in exchange not to be called upon have the captain general have a quiet word with inquisitorial representerive about known threats.

The Impirium is corrupt to the core.
Plus there only organisation I know of bar grey knights to have zero traitors.


True, the cardinal is bound to give him what he wants, however the religion of Impirium is a far larger organisation, might not be able to refuse but does not say they might not well hard to describe but make life Harder without comiting heresy,

I agree inquisition had ultimate power but does not mean that powerful individuals can interfere abit with that power.

Again, outside the scope of the discussion.

OK I might revise that sentence, ultimate power until you consider a space wolf.
Slight diverergence but shows suitibley placed can resist and live.

The survived the months of shame.
No one should have, but even inquisition has to cut its loss,s

If they achieved it, why not a ultra large and powerful cardinal, billions of followers etc.
They can have similar levels of resources at there control

Space Wolves survive because Plot Armor. That's the only reason the Chapter still exists. If the Space Wolves had not been a First Founding Legion, Fenris would now be a cloud of ash.

Because a Cardinal has a narrow remit of acceptable behavior, and an army of women in power armor who will burn him at the stake if he steps outside that remit. The Inquisition has no such limit.

The strength of the Inquisition claim of power lies in the fact that it is a decentralized organization. Each inquisitor is just as suspicious of other inquisitors as of any other Imperial citizen. This prevents the amassing of power under a single individual (such as Vandire.)

Vandire's ascension was a very clever bit of politicking though. He started out as the heir to the High Lord of the Administratum, who he then conspired against with the High Lord of the Ecclesiarchy, who thought to install Vandire as a puppet.

Vandire then ensured that the High Lord of the Ecclesiarchy, who had named him heir, was fingered for the deed, and from there assumed both roles.

Vandire was a case of slow creep, no one noticed until too late as he gained power slower, the frog was warmed not boiled.

Secure one, then the next, over time gain power. Even the inquisition failed to stop his rein of blood. His rise was not instantious.manipulating the telepathica, other corruption and such. No one noticed properly until he was already too far gone, and even then no single organisation could resist alone without allies. They did but it in end but took many bloody years.

Yes inquisition had ultimate power but there rival too had gathered massive power. What was there role in that era, there part seems to be rather missing for such powerful and investetgive organisation?

They were busy, and they had nobody specifically assigned to the Ecclesiarchy.

The Ordo Hereticus wasn't founded until after the Reign of Blood - it was the Administratum's response, as the Sororitas were the Ecclesiarchy's.

True it they still had a base on Terra and could see what was going on the planet and no doubt is nigh impossible even for valdire to threaten. Even if they had pulled back from it due to situation, they have many spies everywhere from lowest hive to highest chambers.

True they where the knee jerk reply, and no way existed but just a missing bit of fictional puzzle

Legal power, the Inquisiton.

Political power, the Ecclesiarchy.