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Thanks for the comments everyone! Very interesting stuff

The ecclesiastical forces have there own inquisition, these people believe they have the same authority as the inquisition in ecclesiastical matters, and others, this has led to several "wars" between the inquisition forces (note: not the entire inquisition) and the faction within the ecclesiarchy. It's discussed in the eisenhorn series, as stated before, this ended badly for a particular witch finder.

Sort of, but not really. The Ecclesiarchy has its own departments that involve themselves in investigations of suspected heresy (and in the case of that Witch-Finder, he was actually correct... Eisenhorn *is* a heretic.) and crimes against the Church/Imperium, but they don't really hold themselves as the equal to, or with the authority of, the Inquisition.

That does not make the accusations of heresy unfounded, or incorrect. Eisenhorn is a summoner and binder of daemons and a student of the blackest of sorceries.

Just to add...
The Inquisitor codex mentions Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors often overwatch Sororitas Wars of Faith to make sure they don't overextend their objectives.

 Psienesis wrote:
Sort of, but not really. The Ecclesiarchy has its own departments that involve themselves in investigations of suspected heresy (and in the case of that Witch-Finder, he was actually correct... Eisenhorn *is* a heretic.) and crimes against the Church/Imperium, but they don't really hold themselves as the equal to, or with the authority of, the Inquisition.

That does not make the accusations of heresy unfounded, or incorrect. Eisenhorn is a summoner and binder of daemons and a student of the blackest of sorceries.

Eisenhorn hadn't bound any daemons at this point. It was because of Cherubael mistaking another Inquisitor for him that caused the with hunter to search for him. The only infraction Gregor can be accused of at that time was the past conversations with Pontius Glaw and choosing to keep Glaw hidden.

The witch hunter was correct in terms of the future of Gregor, but at that point he was wrong.

The one note re High Lords - the Inquisitorial Representative isn't a permanent role, like the Master of the Assassins:

Note that a specific Inquisitor does not typically hold the position of Inquisitorial Representative on his own, but instead, the seat is retained for whichever individual is sent on behalf of the Inquisition during a meeting of the Senatorum.

He is just that; a 'normal' Inquisitor (in so far as there is such a thing) and his special status is simply that he was the guy who got sent to the meeting; it won't necessarily be the same one twice in a row.

As a meeting of the ruling council of a galaxy spanning empire, I assume the sandwiches are good, though.

 Psienesis wrote:
Sort of, but not really. The Ecclesiarchy has its own departments that involve themselves in investigations of suspected heresy (and in the case of that Witch-Finder, he was actually correct... Eisenhorn *is* a heretic.) and crimes against the Church/Imperium, but they don't really hold themselves as the equal to, or with the authority of, the Inquisition.

That does not make the accusations of heresy unfounded, or incorrect. Eisenhorn is a summoner and binder of daemons and a student of the blackest of sorceries.

The person in question considers his authority equal if not greater, he is part of an organisation within the ecclesiarchy that also conducts itself in the same manner, if a spade looks like a spade, it's a spade, but in this case its a broom that thinks it's a spade, and the spade doesn't appreciate it's hole being dug by the wrong tool haha.

And by this point eisenhorn wasn't renegade, the witch hunter was acting way above his mandate and shouldn't have even been involved, it was an inquisition matter, not the churches business at all.

locarno24 wrote:
The one note re High Lords - the Inquisitorial Representative isn't a permanent role, like the Master of the Assassins:

Note that a specific Inquisitor does not typically hold the position of Inquisitorial Representative on his own, but instead, the seat is retained for whichever individual is sent on behalf of the Inquisition during a meeting of the Senatorum.

He is just that; a 'normal' Inquisitor (in so far as there is such a thing) and his special status is simply that he was the guy who got sent to the meeting; it won't necessarily be the same one twice in a row.

As a meeting of the ruling council of a galaxy spanning empire, I assume the sandwiches are good, though.

But whichever Inquisitor attends still has equal authority to all the other High Lords. Which really shows just how much authority Inquisitors have. In practice, it's almost certainly always a very senior Inquisitor Lord, representing the interests of multiple other high ranking Inquisitors but technically, any random Inquisitor can be High Lord for a day. Any Inquisitor in the galaxy is basically equal to a High Lord in authority, and answerable only to other Inquisitors.

And the sandwiches are very good. They're foie gras.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras

Even the High Lords of Terra are not above an Inquisitor's scrutiny. That's what the Inquisition is for: to root out and destroy, by any means possible, all things that endanger the Emperor's domain.

 fallinq wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
The one note re High Lords - the Inquisitorial Representative isn't a permanent role, like the Master of the Assassins:

Note that a specific Inquisitor does not typically hold the position of Inquisitorial Representative on his own, but instead, the seat is retained for whichever individual is sent on behalf of the Inquisition during a meeting of the Senatorum.

He is just that; a 'normal' Inquisitor (in so far as there is such a thing) and his special status is simply that he was the guy who got sent to the meeting; it won't necessarily be the same one twice in a row.

As a meeting of the ruling council of a galaxy spanning empire, I assume the sandwiches are good, though.

But whichever Inquisitor attends still has equal authority to all the other High Lords. Which really shows just how much authority Inquisitors have. In practice, it's almost certainly always a very senior Inquisitor Lord, representing the interests of multiple other high ranking Inquisitors but technically, any random Inquisitor can be High Lord for a day. Any Inquisitor in the galaxy is basically equal to a High Lord in authority, and answerable only to other Inquisitors.

No. Not any random Inquisitor can be High Lord. The Inquisitorial Representative is always a senior Inquisitor Lord from Terra that is elected by his peers and appointed for 5 years. There can be more than one Representative at once, though only one can be present at the Senatorum. The position holds pretty little actual authority, because the Inquisitorial Representative in practice is usually just the guy running messages between the Inquisition and the High Lords.
Also, the Inquisition holds absolute authority in theory, but in practice their authority and power depends completely on the cooperation of the other High Lords (The Inquisition won't have any starships without the AdMech, and no armies if the Lord Commander Militant does not cooperate). That is why the Inquisitorial Representative is so important to be a permanent member, even if he is a diplomat rather than a decision-maker. He is pretty much the oil between the gears of the individual High Lords and Inquisitors that keeps the whole Imperium running.

Formosa wrote:
The person in question considers his authority equal if not greater, he is part of an organisation within the ecclesiarchy that also conducts itself in the same manner,

No, he's not. Tantalid is not part of a greater organisation within the Ecclesiarchy.

He is a self-appointed Witch Finder. Any Priest of the Ecclesiarchy can be a Witch-Finder. It's a temporary role, not an organisation.

For the Ecclesiarchy's specific investigative arm, you need to look to their internal affairs department, the Adepta Sororitas.

It's part of the Decree Passive. Just like some Priests are close-combat monsters with power mauls, archeotech pistols and insanely high weapon skill, but are not men at arms because they are simply priests who are "enthusiastic hobbyists" when it comes to the martial arts.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Formosa wrote:
The person in question considers his authority equal if not greater, he is part of an organisation within the ecclesiarchy that also conducts itself in the same manner,

No, he's not. Tantalid is not part of a greater organisation within the Ecclesiarchy.

He is a self-appointed Witch Finder. Any Priest of the Ecclesiarchy can be a Witch-Finder. It's a temporary role, not an organisation.

For the Ecclesiarchy's specific investigative arm, you need to look to their internal affairs department, the Adepta Sororitas.

It's part of the Decree Passive. Just like some Priests are close-combat monsters with power mauls, archeotech pistols and insanely high weapon skill, but are not men at arms because they are simply priests who are "enthusiastic hobbyists" when it comes to the martial arts.

He is a witch finder, there are more than one, that's an organisation pure and simple, self appointed, therefore considers himself able to do the job of censoring inquisitors, therefore considers his authority equal or greater than the inquisition, who's job it actually is. Temporary job, he's been doing it a long time, this quite clearly isn't temporary, unless it temporary until they die that is.

Any priest can be a witch finder, who appoints them, trains them, equips them, the ecclesiarchy, so they support the organisation and equipping of the witch finders, who step on the toes of the inquisition, hence wars have been started between the 2 organisations.

You can say it's not an organisation, but that doesn't make it so.

An organisation implies that there is leadership, heirarchy, beaurocracy. There isn't any of that behind Tantalid. The Ecclesiarchy don't even care that he goes missing beyond 'gah, we lost another priest'.

There's no organisation other than the Ecclesiarchy itself. Name one other Ecclesiarchy Witch-finder, source them.

Tantalid decided that the best way for him to serve the Ecclesiarchy was to hunt down psykers. That's fine. He called himself a Witch-finder. That's fine.

There is no faction within the Ecclesiarchy known as the "witch-finders".

For political reasons the Ecclesiarchy would probably try to get a Puritanical Inquisitor to do their dirty work for them. Puritans are notoriously zealous. Given the infighting between Inquisitorial factions it would be very easy to find someone willing and able to take down a rival Inquisitor. If the Inquisition had hard evidence they could have it fall into the hands of such a rival and watch the fireworks with no reprecussions.

Failing that, a quiet visit from a Death Cult might work. If the evidence against the Inquisitor was strong enough the Officious Assassinorum could be called in.

My two cents.

The Inquisition is in control of the Officio Assassinorum.

Well, technically, there's only one Inquisitorial representative, and one Ecclesiarchical represetative, and the Assassins answer to the High Lords as a group...

Seriously, the amount of bureaucracy involved in deploying an Assassin makes them basically useless.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
An organisation implies that there is leadership, heirarchy, beaurocracy. There isn't any of that behind Tantalid. The Ecclesiarchy don't even care that he goes missing beyond 'gah, we lost another priest'.

There's no organisation other than the Ecclesiarchy itself. Name one other Ecclesiarchy Witch-finder, source them.

Tantalid decided that the best way for him to serve the Ecclesiarchy was to hunt down psykers. That's fine. He called himself a Witch-finder. That's fine.

There is no faction within the Ecclesiarchy known as the "witch-finders".

Just because you don't hear about them in other books, doesn't mean they are not there, and you "assume" there isn't any organisation behind tyrus, so I ask again, who trained him to use power armour, who equipped him, where did any of his resources come from, but tell you what, I'll go read the book again and see exactly what's said, that way we can at least get a direct quote.

... Since you don't even realise that Witch-Hunter Tyrus is an Inquisitor, not a member of the Ecclesiarchy at all, you should probably check your facts before arguing with me.

Tantalid is the Ecclesiarchy 'witch-finder'.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
... Since you don't even realise that Witch-Hunter Tyrus is an Inquisitor, not a member of the Ecclesiarchy at all, you should probably check your facts before arguing with me.

Tantalid is the Ecclesiarchy 'witch-finder'.

It's called mis-remembering a name, witch hunter and witch finder, quite easy to mix those up eh, and I suggest you check your attitude before "discussing" a make believe world, it seems you were having an argument while the rest of us were talking.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Inquisition is in control of the Officio Assassinorum.

No. Just no.
The Officio Assassinorum answers to no one but itself. It has a permanent seat on the Senatorum Imperialis and is one of the most powerful organisations in the entire Imperium. Like any Imperial organisation, they will work together with the Inquisition, but the Inquisition does not control them.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Inquisition is in control of the Officio Assassinorum.

No. Just no.
The Officio Assassinorum answers to no one but itself. It has a permanent seat on the Senatorum Imperialis and is one of the most powerful organisations in the entire Imperium. Like any Imperial organisation, they will work together with the Inquisition, but the Inquisition does not control them.

Ordo Sicarius says "Hi."

 Formosa wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
... Since you don't even realise that Witch-Hunter Tyrus is an Inquisitor, not a member of the Ecclesiarchy at all, you should probably check your facts before arguing with me.

Tantalid is the Ecclesiarchy 'witch-finder'.

It's called mis-remembering a name, witch hunter and witch finder, quite easy to mix those up eh, and I suggest you check your attitude before "discussing" a make believe world, it seems you were having an argument while the rest of us were talking.

I told you a fact, you argued with me, incorrectly. That's just what happened.

Inquisition by far. Ecclesiarchy was effectively stripped of power after the Age of Apostasy.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Inquisition is in control of the Officio Assassinorum.

No. Just no.
The Officio Assassinorum answers to no one but itself. It has a permanent seat on the Senatorum Imperialis and is one of the most powerful organisations in the entire Imperium. Like any Imperial organisation, they will work together with the Inquisition, but the Inquisition does not control them.

Ordo Sicarius says "Hi."

The Inquisition monitors the Assassinorum, like they do with all Imperial organisations. That is their job. However, monitoring ≠ controlling. The Inquisition keeps a watchful eye on the Assassins (with the Assassin's own consent), but it does not control them. This is shown very clearly when the Inquisition twice had to stop plots by the Officio Assassinorum to assassinate one of the High Lords. If the Inquisition had been in control of the Assassinorum they wouldn't have attempted to kill the High Lords in the first place.

The Inqusition's control of what contracts the Assassinorum takes is proof of their control of the Assassinorum.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Inqusition's control of what contracts the Assassinorum takes is proof of their control of the Assassinorum.

They don't.
Assassinations are approved by the High Lords, not the Inquisition. The Inquisiton only gets permission to see the report of it afterwards.
And even then, the attempted assassinations of the High Lords show that the Assassinorum does act on its own.

In theory, the Inquisition has the legal high ground. In practice, the Ecclesiarchy has direct control over stupid numbers of people.

It's also worth remembering that the Inquisition has an immense variety of philosophies and aims among its members, not to mention the fact that the Inquisition's attention is divided across numerous different fronts, while the Ecclesiarchy is of largely singular purpose.

Thank the Emperor for the Ordo Hereticus.

Not even the High Lords "give permission" to the Inquisition. The Inquisition, as a body, is of higher authority than the High Lords, for even they are not free of an Inquisitor's suspicion.

There are two groups in the Imperium that are free from Inquiry. One of them is the God-Emperor, Himself. The other is the Adeptus Custodes.

 Psienesis wrote:
Not even the High Lords "give permission" to the Inquisition. The Inquisition, as a body, is of higher authority than the High Lords, for even they are not free of an Inquisitor's suspicion.

There are two groups in the Imperium that are free from Inquiry. One of them is the God-Emperor, Himself. The other is the Adeptus Custodes.

That is in theory. In practice the Inquisiton is a loose group of bickering individuals without access to any power beyond what they get out of cooperation with the powers that be in the Imperium. The Inquisition can't afford to upset the High Lords. If they piss off the Fabricator General of Mars, the Inquisiton will find itself without spaceships or other fancy tech. If they piss off the Lord Commander Militant, the Inquisition will find itself without armies. If they piss of the Ecclessiarch, the Inquisition will find itself without support amongst the highly religious population of the Imperium, or worse, they may be declared heretical themselves.
High level politics in the Imperium is a complex game of backstabbing and machiavellian realpolitik. The Inquisition is just an element in this game, they are not free from corruption and they are not all-powerful. The Emperor may have given absolute authority to the Inquisition, but who is going to enforce that now? The Emperor is dead, long live the Emperor.

Yes, but the Realpolitick of the situation doesn't change the reality that the High Lords are not actually in charge of the Inquisition. The founding of the Inquisition clearly states, either directly from the Emperor or from his Voice, Malcador the Sigilite, that the Inquisition will have no barriers to their mission and no stays to their activities.

And the Inquisition is really quite good at enforcing its own authority when it needs to. While a single Inquisitor is beholden to the rest of the organization and his/her own assets and resources, as an organization they can command anything they need to get the job done.