If I take the C'tan shard of the deceiver as the C'tan shard for the conclave formation how does Grand illusion effect the unit? In grand illusion it says you can take the c'tan and redeploy him but now he is part of a unit of more than just him.

The Conclave rule enforces that the crypteks and the C'tan shard stick together so the crypteks re-deploy with the C'tan shard.

I wasn't quite sure because under grand illusion it says "you may remove this model " and not 'may remove this unit'

"This model and d3 other units"

The whole unit does not count as "this model" models and units are different. However the whole unit could be considered as 1 of the d3 "other units".

The conclave and similar formations that force multiple units to join together and cannot leave has a goofy interaction with rules dependent on certain units. This is a perfect example as normally the C'tan shard is a unit unto itself and then the crypteks are another unit, now they are 1 unit that supersedes the normal IC rules(joined together via formation rules not IC rules) we also have no idea whay battlefield role the combined unit has(C'tan is elite, Crypteks are HQ).

So anyways, the model and 1(d3) "other unit(s)" get redeployed, the unit is not a C'tan shard unit so it is an "other unit" and you can always redeploy at least 1 other unit. The rules work fine when all are applied.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
"This model and d3 other units"

The whole unit does not count as "this model" models and units are different. However the whole unit could be considered as 1 of the d3 "other units".

The conclave and similar formations that force multiple units to join together and cannot leave has a goofy interaction with rules dependent on certain units. This is a perfect example as normally the C'tan shard is a unit unto itself and then the crypteks are another unit, now they are 1 unit that supersedes the normal IC rules(joined together via formation rules not IC rules) we also have no idea whay battlefield role the combined unit has(C'tan is elite, Crypteks are HQ).

So anyways, the model and 1(d3) "other unit(s)" get redeployed, the unit is not a C'tan shard unit so it is an "other unit" and you can always redeploy at least 1 other unit. The rules work fine when all are applied.

The C'tan shard does not refer to it's own unit (which is now a Conclave unit) as an "other unit."

The Conclave rule fuses the crypteks to wherever the C'tan shard goes

col_impact wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
"This model and d3 other units"

The whole unit does not count as "this model" models and units are different. However the whole unit could be considered as 1 of the d3 "other units".

The conclave and similar formations that force multiple units to join together and cannot leave has a goofy interaction with rules dependent on certain units. This is a perfect example as normally the C'tan shard is a unit unto itself and then the crypteks are another unit, now they are 1 unit that supersedes the normal IC rules(joined together via formation rules not IC rules) we also have no idea whay battlefield role the combined unit has(C'tan is elite, Crypteks are HQ).

So anyways, the model and 1(d3) "other unit(s)" get redeployed, the unit is not a C'tan shard unit so it is an "other unit" and you can always redeploy at least 1 other unit. The rules work fine when all are applied.

The C'tan shard does not refer to it's own unit (which is now a Conclave unit) as an "other unit."

The Conclave rule fuses the crypteks to wherever the C'tan shard goes

Correct, but Grand Illusion only allows for the Deceiver Model plus additional units to be moved.

The Kommisar is correct for RAW. The Cryptek can be moved with the Deceiver, but would require one of the D3 slots to do so, by RAW.

However, I would allow the Crypteks to not have to use one of the D3 if the player is nice enough.

The shard does not refer to its own unit at all; only "this model". That model is also, normally, a unit unto itself.

Without using the crypteks in its unit as a whole from the formation (again speaking strictly RAW) as one of the "other" units grand illusion cannot be used on the shard in any way (luckily it is phrased and/or, so you could use it simply on d3 other units) as it does not state "C'tan shard of the deciever unit" or "this model and its unit" or this model's unit" or even "this unit"

The Conclave rule forces the Conclave to be fielded as a "single unit" and they are not allowed to leave the single unit. Read the rule.

When the C'tan shard is re-deployed, the crypteks go along because they are part of that "single unit" and are not allowed to leave it.

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave rule forces the Conclave to be fielded as a "single unit" and they are not allowed to leave the single unit. Read the rule.

When the C'tan shard is re-deployed, the crypteks go along because they are part of that "single unit" and are not allowed to leave it.

Not in argument. But, either the Combined unit uses one of the D3 options, the Deceiver limits his redeployment to be in coherency, or the unit starts the game Out of Coherency.

Your choice.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave rule forces the Conclave to be fielded as a "single unit" and they are not allowed to leave the single unit. Read the rule.

When the C'tan shard is re-deployed, the crypteks go along because they are part of that "single unit" and are not allowed to leave it.

Not in argument. But, either the Combined unit uses one of the D3 options, the Deceiver limits his redeployment to be in coherency, or the unit starts the game Out of Coherency.

Your choice.

Incorrect. They are fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard re-deploys, they are re-fielded along with him.

Incorrect, the C'tan's rule only calls for that model, not his unit; which I have said twice already and the quote from the rule is already posted above.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Incorrect, the C'tan's rule only calls for that model, not his unit; which I have said twice already and the quote from the rule is already posted above.

Incorrect. The Grand Illusion rule refers to unit.



Note it does not say



So in order for Grand Illusion to work at all on the C'tan shard we can be confident that the rule removes the C'tan shard unit from the table.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave rule forces the Conclave to be fielded as a "single unit" and they are not allowed to leave the single unit. Read the rule.

When the C'tan shard is re-deployed, the crypteks go along because they are part of that "single unit" and are not allowed to leave it.

Not in argument. But, either the Combined unit uses one of the D3 options, the Deceiver limits his redeployment to be in coherency, or the unit starts the game Out of Coherency.

Your choice.

Incorrect. They are fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard re-deploys, they are re-fielded along with him.

If the rule referenced redeploying the unit, you would be correct. But the rule states "this model and D3units". Rules that only apply to models do not affect an entire unit.

Yes it tells you how to redeploy units; but only lets you redeploy "this model and/or up to 3 other units".

Now, had you been paying attention, it has already been pointed out that outside of this formation that model is also normally a unit on its own, within this formation that model is just a member of a unit that it cannot redeploy(RAW the unit can only be one of the "other units", or since it is the same unit as this model simply cannot redeploy; we are taking the first as a compromise as both are RAW-valid); as it does not say "this model's unit" or any of the permutations to that I listed hours ago the rules on redeploying units does nothing to allow the formation-forced unit as the rule does not grant them general allowance by virtue of being a unit alone.

Selective quoting as always. From Grand Illusion in Codex Necrons:

Grand Illusion: Immediately after all forces have deployed and all Scout redeployments have been made, you may remove this model and/or up to D3 other friendly units within 12" of it from the table. Each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve.

 Ghaz wrote:
Selective quoting as always. From Grand Illusion in Codex Necrons:

Grand Illusion: Immediately after all forces have deployed and all Scout redeployments have been made, you may remove this model and/or up to D3 other friendly units within 12" of it from the table. Each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve.

The rules in question were already fully quoted above. The argument has advanced to the point where we are parsing portions of the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Yes it tells you how to redeploy units; but only lets you redeploy "this model and/or up to 3 other units".

Now, had you been paying attention, it has already been pointed out that outside of this formation that model is also normally a unit on its own, within this formation that model is just a member of a unit that it cannot redeploy(RAW the unit can only be one of the "other units", or since it is the same unit as this model simply cannot redeploy; we are taking the first as a compromise as both are RAW-valid); as it does not say "this model's unit" or any of the permutations to that I listed hours ago the rules on redeploying units does nothing to allow the formation-forced unit as the rule does not grant them general allowance by virtue of being a unit alone.

The Conclave requires the formation to be fielded as a single unit. If the C'tan shard model is being re-fielded, then the rest of the single unit formation is being re-fielded.

I think you are getting confused here and thinking of the Grand Illusion as a move. It is not a move. We are still in deployment. So the requirement that the Conclave is fielded as a single unit comes in effect.

We have taken that into account; there are only 2 options under "break no rules": C'tan itself(and therefore the crypteks in his unit) cannot ok. ao(RAW allows for this option, in fact it is pure RAW via the and/or verbiage in the rule), or you allow "this model" and d3 "other units" to redeploy including the new unit he is in as am "other unit".

Both of those options break no rules. Allowing "this model" to redeploy and bring his unit with him does, because now you are never given permission to redeploy the unit this model is in, and you are denied from reploying or holding in reserves any partial units or out of coherency.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
We have taken that into account; there are only 2 options under "break no rules": C'tan itself(and therefore the crypteks in his unit) cannot ok. ao(RAW allows for this option, in fact it is pure RAW via the and/or verbiage in the rule), or you allow "this model" and d3 "other units" to redeploy including the new unit he is in as am "other unit".

Both of those options break no rules. Allowing "this model" to redeploy and bring his unit with him does, because now you are never given permission to redeploy the unit this model is in, and you are denied from reploying or holding in reserves any partial units or out of coherency.

No, you have not taken the fact that we are still in deployment into account. Conclave requires the fielding of the formation as a single unit and that they cannot leave each other. By force of rule they are fused together in issues of deployment.

If you allow the C'tan to be removed separately from the formation in any shape or fashion, you break three rules.

1) The Conclave rule which requires the formation to be fielded as a single unit.
2) The Conclave rule that says the C'tan cannot leave the unit.
3) The Grand Illusion rule which only allows a unit (and not models) to be re-deployed. A C'tan shard in the Conclave formation cannot be a unit in and of itself while the crypteks exist.

Also you are not allowed to use the D3 on the crypteks as they are not "other units". The crypteks form a single unit with the C'tan in the formation. They are required to be handled as one.

col_impact wrote:
No, you have not taken the fact that we are still in deployment into account. Conclave requires the fielding of the formation as a single unit and that they cannot leave each other. By force of rule they are fused together in issues of deployment.

If you allow the C'tan to be removed separately from the formation in any shape or fashion, you break three rules.

1) The Conclave rule which requires the formation to be fielded as a single unit.
2) The Conclave rule that says the C'tan cannot leave the unit.
3) The Grand Illusion rule which only allows a unit (and not models) to be re-deployed. A C'tan shard in the Conclave formation cannot be a unit in and of itself while the crypteks exist.

Also you are not allowed to use the D3 on the crypteks as they are not "other units". The crypteks form a single unit with the C'tan in the formation. They are required to be handled as one.

No, being in deployment is taken in account. Unless a unit has Scout or another rule to redeploy, the unit cannot redeploy.

The Deceiver MODEL is allowed to redeploy, the Crypteks must use something else.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
No, you have not taken the fact that we are still in deployment into account. Conclave requires the fielding of the formation as a single unit and that they cannot leave each other. By force of rule they are fused together in issues of deployment.

If you allow the C'tan to be removed separately from the formation in any shape or fashion, you break three rules.

1) The Conclave rule which requires the formation to be fielded as a single unit.
2) The Conclave rule that says the C'tan cannot leave the unit.
3) The Grand Illusion rule which only allows a unit (and not models) to be re-deployed. A C'tan shard in the Conclave formation cannot be a unit in and of itself while the crypteks exist.

Also you are not allowed to use the D3 on the crypteks as they are not "other units". The crypteks form a single unit with the C'tan in the formation. They are required to be handled as one.

No, being in deployment is taken in account. Unless a unit has Scout or another rule to redeploy, the unit cannot redeploy.

The Deceiver MODEL is allowed to redeploy, the Crypteks must use something else.

You are not accounting for the 2 Conclave rules and 1 Grand Illusion rule that you break as noted in the words of mine that you quoted.

The Deceiver model and the crypteks are fused together. The Deceiver model can only redeploy if the crypteks redeploy right along with it in the single unit that cannot be left.

col_impact wrote:
You are not accounting for the 2 Conclave rules and 1 Grand Illusion rule that you break as noted in the words of mine that you quoted.

That's because you misquoted. Why should I take a misqouted portion of a rule in to account?

col_impact wrote:
The Deceiver model and the crypteks are fused together. The Deceiver model can only redeploy if the crypteks redeploy right along with it in the single unit that cannot be left.

Really? Where does it state that if a model redeploys, the rest of its unit must do so? I do not remember it being in the Conclave or Grand Illusion's rules. Please elucidate.

What I see:

That they must be joined and stay in coherency isn't in issue, nor have we stated otherwise. It is the fact that Crypteks as ICs do not gain the Special Rules of the units they join, and so do not possess Grand Illusion in and of themselves. Grand Illusion does not state that the unit of the Deceiver to be removed, just the model with the rule. Grand Illusion also states that D3 other units may also be removed, and that could include the unit the Crypteks are in.

The Conclave rule does not state that the Crypteks gain the C'tan Shards special rules. It does not state that if one model (or the C'tan) is redeployed, they all redeploy. Just that they are a single unit and cannot leave each other.

The other alternative is that the Deceiver cannot be removed at all.

Charistoph wrote:
That they must be joined and stay in coherency isn't in issue, nor have we stated otherwise. It is the fact that Crypteks as ICs do not gain the Special Rules of the units they join, and so do not possess Grand Illusion in and of themselves. Grand Illusion does not state that the unit of the Deceiver to be removed, just the model with the rule. Grand Illusion also states that D3 other units may also be removed, and that could include the unit the Crypteks are in.

The Conclave rule does not state that the Crypteks gain the C'tan Shards special rules. It does not state that if one model (or the C'tan) is redeployed, they all redeploy. Just that they are a single unit and cannot leave each other.

The other alternative is that the Deceiver cannot be removed at all.

Your point:
Grand Illusion does not state that the unit of the Deceiver to be removed, just the model with the rule.

Rule Broken:
Per the Conclave rule, the model cannot leave the Conclave and the conclave must be fielded as a single unit. How exactly are you removing the model without directly breaking this rule?

Your point
Grand Illusion also states that D3 other units may also be removed, and that could include the unit the Crypteks are in.

Rule Broken:
The Crypteks have to be with the C'tan or you are breaking the Conclave rule as already noted. The Crypteks are not in a "other" unit. They are in the unit with the C'tan shard.


Also, you fail to address the problem that the Grand Illusion rule may remove the Deceiver model but it only allows units (and not models) to be re-deployed. A C'tan shard in the Conclave formation cannot be a unit in and of itself while the crypteks exist.


If the C'tan shard is going to redeploy the Crypteks are required to be redeploying right along with it.

Well then, in order to not break any rules, the C'tan Shard will not be able to re-deploy.

 Happyjew wrote:
Well then, in order to not break any rules, the C'tan Shard will not be able to re-deploy.

Incorrect. The Conclave rule requires that the Conclave be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed the crypteks are removed right along with it since the Conclave unit at that point cannot be fielded.

Then the Grand Illusion will be able to function correctly - "each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve."

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Well then, in order to not break any rules, the C'tan Shard will not be able to re-deploy.

Incorrect. The Conclave rule requires that the Conclave be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed the crypteks are removed right along with it since the Conclave unit at that point cannot be fielded.

Then the Grand Illusion will be able to function correctly - "each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve."

Conclave does not grant Grant Illusion to the Crypteks, though. You have to pass the first requirement in order to apply the second. And by your own definition, you cannot complete the first step.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Well then, in order to not break any rules, the C'tan Shard will not be able to re-deploy.

Incorrect. The Conclave rule requires that the Conclave be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed the crypteks are removed right along with it since the Conclave unit at that point cannot be fielded.

Then the Grand Illusion will be able to function correctly - "each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve."

Conclave does not grant Grant Illusion to the Crypteks, though. You have to pass the first requirement in order to apply the second. And by your own definition, you cannot complete the first step.

Grand Illusion does not need to be granted to the Crypteks.

1) Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver.
2) The Crypteks cannot be fielded and are removed from the field.
3) Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver unit (aka the Conclave formation, the single unit that is comprised of 1 Deceiver and 2 Crypteks) to be immediately deployed again or placed in reserve

well what about the rule about units that are no longer coherent? don't they have to spend their movement to get back together or would that not apply in this case for some reason?

Oberron wrote:
well what about the rule about units that are no longer coherent? don't they have to spend their movement to get back together or would that not apply in this case for some reason?

All of this is taking place in deployment, so no movement is allowed.

col_impact wrote:

Oberron wrote:
well what about the rule about units that are no longer coherent? don't they have to spend their movement to get back together or would that not apply in this case for some reason?

All of this is taking place in deployment, so no movement is allowed.

They would take their next movement phase to move back to unit coherency they don't do it right then when a unit loses cohenercy (pg 19 in brb under unit coherency 2nd paragraph)

Oberron wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Oberron wrote:
well what about the rule about units that are no longer coherent? don't they have to spend their movement to get back together or would that not apply in this case for some reason?

All of this is taking place in deployment, so no movement is allowed.

They would take their next movement phase to move back to unit coherency they don't do it right then when a unit loses cohenercy (pg 19 in brb under unit coherency 2nd paragraph)

Units are deployed in coherency. Otherwise they don't make up the unit.

The Conclave rule further restricts this by saying the models cannot leave the unit (e.g move or be positioned out of coherency).

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Well then, in order to not break any rules, the C'tan Shard will not be able to re-deploy.

Incorrect. The Conclave rule requires that the Conclave be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed the crypteks are removed right along with it since the Conclave unit at that point cannot be fielded.

Then the Grand Illusion will be able to function correctly - "each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve."

Conclave does not grant Grant Illusion to the Crypteks, though. You have to pass the first requirement in order to apply the second. And by your own definition, you cannot complete the first step.

Grand Illusion does not need to be granted to the Crypteks.

1) Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver.
2) The Crypteks cannot be fielded and are removed from the field.
3) Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver unit (aka the Conclave formation, the single unit that is comprised of 1 Deceiver and 2 Crypteks) to be immediately deployed again or placed in reserve

You have your orders of operations wrong.

1) Grand Illusion attempts to remove the Deceiver model.
2) Conclave and Coherency rules require that the Deceiver be deployed with the Crypteks, and cannot leave them.
3) Crypteks cannot be removed as they do not have Grand Illusion in order to be "this model", and they cannot qualify as an "other unit".
4) Since the Deceiver cannot be removed from the Crypteks, and the Crypteks cannot be removed, the Deceiver must stay in place.

In order for Grand Illusion to work, it must be able to remove the unit the Deceiver unit, which contains the joined Cryptek models. But Grand Illusions doesn't remove the Deceiver UNIT, it removes the Deceiver model.

Having permission to redeploy the removed units only comes AFTER they are removed, not as a permission to remove the unit the Deceiver is in after the fact.

It would be the same as removing models after successful To-Hit Rolls instead of at least waiting for successful To-Wound rolls.

You keep forgetting that we are doing all of this in deployment. If a single unit cannot be fully deployed then it cannot be deployed at all. Even further the Conclave reinforces this as it requires all the models to be fielded as a single unit.

There is no movement going on so no leaving is actually going on. Deployment is not movement. What happens actually is the single unit is placed into a state that is both deployed and not deployed. The Grand Illusion power can remove the Deceiver model but in doing so it forces the crypteks to be removed off the field since you cannot have a single unit that is deployed and not deployed.

My order of operations is correct.

1) Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver.
2) The Crypteks cannot be fielded and are removed from the field.
3) Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver unit (aka the Conclave formation, the single unit that is comprised of 1 Deceiver and 2 Crypteks) to be immediately deployed again or placed in reserve

col_impact wrote:
You keep forgetting that we are doing all of this in deployment. If a single unit cannot be fully deployed then it cannot be deployed at all. Even further the Conclave reinforces this as it requires all the models to be fielded as a single unit.

I have NOT forgotten that this is in deployment. You do not have general permission to redeploy models after Infiltrators or Scouts during deployment unless you have the rule to allow it. Grand Illusions IS such a rule, but the part that allows the redeploy requires that the Deceiver model and other friendly units that are going to be redeployed are removed FIRST. It is this first step you keep ignoring, and it is this first step that is the problem, NOT the second part.

col_impact wrote:
There is no movement going on so no leaving is actually going on. Deployment is not movement. What happens actually is the single unit is placed into a state that is both deployed and not deployed. The Grand Illusion power can remove the Deceiver model but in doing so it forces the crypteks to be removed off the field since you cannot have a single unit that is deployed and not deployed.

Who said anything about movement? I did not. The rules have not. The model and chosen units must be removed from the table first. Effectively, they are "undeployed", so they can be deployed again just as if it was their first time. This case of being "deployed and not deployed" is never stated.

col_impact wrote:
My order of operations is correct.
1) Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver.
2) The Crypteks cannot be fielded and are removed from the field.
3) Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver unit (aka the Conclave formation, the single unit that is comprised of 1 Deceiver and 2 Crypteks) to be immediately deployed again or placed in reserve

No, it is incorrect.

Your Step 2 is implying that they are waiting to be deployed. When in actuality, all three models have been deployed as a unit. There is no rule that covers what happens if a model in a unit is undeployed, at all, and neither the Conclave rule nor Grand Illusion address this.

Indeed, there is no rule that a unit must be deployed in Coherency. Deployment never mentions it. The closest we get in this situation is Unit Coherency in Movement, which states:
"During the course of a game, a unit can get broken up and lose unit coherency, usually because it has taken casualties from incoming enemy fire. If this happens, in their next Movement phase, the models in the unit must be moved in such a way that they restore unit coherency (or get as close as possible to having restored coherency). If the unit cannot move in its next turn, or is unable to restore unit coherency in a single turn, then the models must move to restore unit coherency as soon as they have the opportunity, including by Running if they have that option."

Now, here is where Grand Illusion gets really scary, it only allows the units who have been removed to be deployed again. With the Deceiver model removed, only a third of the unit is undeployed, not all of it. So, the Deceiver, being a model not on the table and out of coherency with his unit still deployed, cannot be deployed again. He is not in Reserves, because the UNIT must be declared in Reserves (and Grand Illusion allows the UNITS to do this).

Note, this is only applying the Rules As Written. And it is obvious that the Writers of the new Grand Illusion never saw it interacting with Conclave. The previous version would not be a problem, as it only addressed D3 Friendly units, and required nothing of the C'tan.

And as I said earlier, if the player wasn't being a jerk, I'd be fine with the entire Conclave unit being removed in this manner, as HIWPI. Heck, just even allowing the Deceiver in to the Conclave is a House Rule!

It seems like this falls into a 'blackhole' type of event because the rule likes to try to interchange model and unit which is just fine if the unit is a single model but is no longer the case. Grand illusion does say it is a "may remove" on the C'tan shard "and/or" (what a horrid short hand in rules THAT statement is) wouldn't the safest way to make sure no rules are broken is to use the ability is to not re-deploy the shard but only other units?

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You keep forgetting that we are doing all of this in deployment. If a single unit cannot be fully deployed then it cannot be deployed at all. Even further the Conclave reinforces this as it requires all the models to be fielded as a single unit.

I have NOT forgotten that this is in deployment. You do not have general permission to redeploy models after Infiltrators or Scouts during deployment unless you have the rule to allow it. Grand Illusions IS such a rule, but the part that allows the redeploy requires that the Deceiver model and other friendly units that are going to be redeployed are removed FIRST. It is this first step you keep ignoring, and it is this first step that is the problem, NOT the second part.

col_impact wrote:
There is no movement going on so no leaving is actually going on. Deployment is not movement. What happens actually is the single unit is placed into a state that is both deployed and not deployed. The Grand Illusion power can remove the Deceiver model but in doing so it forces the crypteks to be removed off the field since you cannot have a single unit that is deployed and not deployed.

Who said anything about movement? I did not. The rules have not. The model and chosen units must be removed from the table first. Effectively, they are "undeployed", so they can be deployed again just as if it was their first time. This case of being "deployed and not deployed" is never stated.

col_impact wrote:
My order of operations is correct.
1) Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver.
2) The Crypteks cannot be fielded and are removed from the field.
3) Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver unit (aka the Conclave formation, the single unit that is comprised of 1 Deceiver and 2 Crypteks) to be immediately deployed again or placed in reserve

No, it is incorrect.

Your Step 2 is implying that they are waiting to be deployed. When in actuality, all three models have been deployed as a unit. There is no rule that covers what happens if a model in a unit is undeployed, at all, and neither the Conclave rule nor Grand Illusion address this.

Indeed, there is no rule that a unit must be deployed in Coherency. Deployment never mentions it. The closest we get in this situation is Unit Coherency in Movement, which states:
"During the course of a game, a unit can get broken up and lose unit coherency, usually because it has taken casualties from incoming enemy fire. If this happens, in their next Movement phase, the models in the unit must be moved in such a way that they restore unit coherency (or get as close as possible to having restored coherency). If the unit cannot move in its next turn, or is unable to restore unit coherency in a single turn, then the models must move to restore unit coherency as soon as they have the opportunity, including by Running if they have that option."

Now, here is where Grand Illusion gets really scary, it only allows the units who have been removed to be deployed again. With the Deceiver model removed, only a third of the unit is undeployed, not all of it. So, the Deceiver, being a model not on the table and out of coherency with his unit still deployed, cannot be deployed again. He is not in Reserves, because the UNIT must be declared in Reserves (and Grand Illusion allows the UNITS to do this).

Note, this is only applying the Rules As Written. And it is obvious that the Writers of the new Grand Illusion never saw it interacting with Conclave. The previous version would not be a problem, as it only addressed D3 Friendly units, and required nothing of the C'tan.

And as I said earlier, if the player wasn't being a jerk, I'd be fine with the entire Conclave unit being removed in this manner, as HIWPI. Heck, just even allowing the Deceiver in to the Conclave is a House Rule!

Incorrect. Deployment is an all or nothing stage. Either the unit is legally deployed or not. The Conclave winds up never being deployed if something interferes with it being successfully legally deployed. The Grand Illusion ability puts the unit in an impossible state of being partially deployed and that mandates that the entire unit be undeployed as well. Luckily, Grand Illusion targets the unit so it will effectively redeploy the unit on resolution of the ability.

Grand illusion only targets the unit if the unit is counted as 1 of the other units.

If you do not count the unit as such then the unit as a whole is never removed for redeployment, only the model(which cannot legally be done)

So we are left with the 2 options:
Remove and redeploy the whole unit counting it as one of the other units.
Or
The unit cannot redeploy via grand illusion as it is the same unit that the model is a part of and we have no permission to remove that unit(only the C'tan model).

Both have some RAW validity as while the model is a part of that unit he is not the whole of that unit thus the unit could be an other unit to the model.

col_impact wrote:
Incorrect. Deployment is an all or nothing stage. Either the unit is legally deployed or not.

Rules quote for this please?

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave winds up never being deployed if something interferes with it being successfully legally deployed. The Grand Illusion ability puts the unit in an impossible state of being partially deployed and that mandates that the entire unit be undeployed as well. Luckily, Grand Illusion targets the unit so it will effectively redeploy the unit on resolution of the ability.

It only puts it in that position if the Deceiver model is removed. It is not required to remove the model in the first place, it is only required if you plan on redeploying it. Grand Illusion does not say "remove this unit", it states, "remove this model", as in the model with this rule.

Again, you are putting desired effects as justification for ignoring the first steps. Should I just remove your models since I'm going to shoot at them and not bothering to Roll? Or should I just go straight to the To-Wound rolls and ignore the To-Hit rolls? This is equivalent to what you are saying we should do.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Incorrect. Deployment is an all or nothing stage. Either the unit is legally deployed or not.

Rules quote for this please?

Are you suggesting I can deploy half of a single unit on the field and half off the field? Can I also bubblewrap a unit during deployment around my vehicles and have the bubblewrapping models be 4-5" apart? Do you allow either of these?

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave winds up never being deployed if something interferes with it being successfully legally deployed. The Grand Illusion ability puts the unit in an impossible state of being partially deployed and that mandates that the entire unit be undeployed as well. Luckily, Grand Illusion targets the unit so it will effectively redeploy the unit on resolution of the ability.

It only puts it in that position if the Deceiver model is removed. It is not required to remove the model in the first place, it is only required if you plan on redeploying it. Grand Illusion does not say "remove this unit", it states, "remove this model", as in the model with this rule.

Again, you are putting desired effects as justification for ignoring the first steps. Should I just remove your models since I'm going to shoot at them and not bothering to Roll? Or should I just go straight to the To-Wound rolls and ignore the To-Hit rolls? This is equivalent to what you are saying we should do.

If the Conclave rule states that the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit and the C'tan is removed from the field, then the Conclave cannot be fielded and is removed from the field. Simple and straightforward rule application.

Incorrect; you have no permission to remove the rest of the conclave along with that model(unless you apply the unit as one of the other units) and are told they cannot be separated therefore the rest of the conclave cannot be removed.

Simple application of the rules.

col_impact wrote:
If the Conclave rule states that the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit and the C'tan is removed from the field, then the Conclave cannot be fielded and is removed from the field. Simple and straightforward rule application.

And the rule quote that a unit must deployed in coherency is?

Keep in mind, the main problem isn't that the Deceiver is being removed, it is that the Crypteks are not part of "the model" in regards to the Deceiver Model, nor possess Grand Illusion in order for "this model" to apply to them.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Incorrect; you have no permission to remove the rest of the conclave along with that model(unless you apply the unit as one of the other units) and are told they cannot be separated therefore the rest of the conclave cannot be removed.

Simple application of the rules.

You are told the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan is removed, the Conclave cannot be fielded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If the Conclave rule states that the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit and the C'tan is removed from the field, then the Conclave cannot be fielded and is removed from the field. Simple and straightforward rule application.

And the rule quote that a unit must deployed in coherency is?

Keep in mind, the main problem isn't that the Deceiver is being removed, it is that the Crypteks are not part of "the model" in regards to the Deceiver Model, nor possess Grand Illusion in order for "this model" to apply to them.

Are you suggesting I can deploy half of a single unit on the field and half off the field? Can I also bubblewrap a unit during deployment around my vehicles and have the bubblewrapping models be 4-5" apart? Do you allow either of these?

Which means the C'tan cannot be removed.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Which means the C'tan cannot be removed.

No we are still in the deployment phase. When the C'tan is removed from the field, the Conclave cannot be fielded and is removed along with the C'tan.

No, you have already deployed your unit.

You are now attempting to remove a single model from an already deployed unit and claim that now the already deployed unit has to be removed because that is not a legal deployment completely ignoring the fact that you cannot split up that unit.

It would be helpful if you actually knew the rule you are trying to argue.

Grand illusion happens after all deployment and scout redeployment.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No, you have already deployed your unit.

You are now attempting to remove a single model from an already deployed unit and claim that now the already deployed unit has to be removed because that is not a legal deployment completely ignoring the fact that you cannot split up that unit.

It would be helpful if you actually knew the rule you are trying to argue.

Grand illusion happens after all deployment and scout redeployment.

Grand Illusion grants a 'do over' of deployment, not a second deployment. When the C'tan is removed from the field to redo its deployment, the Conclave must be removed as well since it can no longer be fielded and we are still in deployment.

col_impact wrote:
Grand Illusion grants a 'do over' of deployment, not a second deployment. When the C'tan is removed from the field to redo its deployment, the Conclave must be removed as well since it can no longer be fielded and we are still in deployment.

No... The unit's original deployment has already been established. The removal happens after regular deployment, Infiltrator deployment and Scout redeployment. Can you provide the general permission from the rulebook to redeploy anything at this point?

Can you provide where it states that removing a model from a unit during deployment causes the whole unit to be removed automatically along with it?

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Grand Illusion grants a 'do over' of deployment, not a second deployment. When the C'tan is removed from the field to redo its deployment, the Conclave must be removed as well since it can no longer be fielded and we are still in deployment.

No... The unit's original deployment has already been established. The removal happens after regular deployment, Infiltrator deployment and Scout redeployment. Can you provide the general permission from the rulebook to redeploy anything at this point?

Can you provide where it states that removing a model from a unit during deployment causes the whole unit to be removed automatically along with it?

The Conclave rule specifies that the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed during deployment, the remainder Conclave is no longer legally fielded and must be removed from the field.

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave rule specifies that the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed during deployment, the remainder Conclave is no longer legally fielded and must be removed from the field.

And you still haven't found the rule that requires the rest of the unit to be removed because it cannot be legally fielded, yet?

Grand Illusion grants no such thing, it grant a redeployent just like scouts, excepting in this case you have much greater range for the redeployment and the option to instead be placed in reserve.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave rule specifies that the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed during deployment, the remainder Conclave is no longer legally fielded and must be removed from the field.

And you still haven't found the rule that requires the rest of the unit to be removed because it cannot be legally fielded, yet?

The Conclave rule. If the Conclave is illegally fielded, can it remain on the field? No.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave rule specifies that the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed during deployment, the remainder Conclave is no longer legally fielded and must be removed from the field.

And you still haven't found the rule that requires the rest of the unit to be removed because it cannot be legally fielded, yet?

The Conclave rule. If the Conclave is illegally fielded, can it remain on the field? No.

The Conclave rules does not state this requirement at all. Yes, it requires them all to be fielded as one unit. But the Conclave rule doesn't say that if the whole unit cannot be deployed, or if you remove one model in deployment, you remove the whole unit.

Since the Conclave rule doesn't state this, you must have the rule from the rulebook. So, where is it?

You are attempting to break the conclave rule by removing 1 model, then trying to justify that with a claim that since you broke the rule then the rest of the unit gets to redeploy as well. That is not how that works.

Once your forces are deployed they are deployed, you cannot go changing the deployment for units after this point(say while infiltrators are being deployed, or scouts are redeploying, or while Grand Illusion is then redeploying) without specific allowance.

The conclave does not have allowance unless you take it as one of the other units(and again, the shard model is optional not required to redeploy for the other units; or at all really). Without the allowance the unit has to stay and the model must stay with the unit per the conclave rules. The only workaround is to use one of the other units(which again are optional) allowances.

Trying to claim the unit gets dragged along is the exact same as claiming a SM Captain on a bike can turboboost out his full distance from an infantry unit he is attached to and then the rest of the unit gets dragged along with him(yes turboboost is model-by-model, and the unit must stay in coherency) since the unit must stay in coherency and he cannot leave the unit in the shooting phase.

As soon as you take the C'tan in this formation, Grand Illusion is effectively no longer usable. It's really only usable when the C'tan is by itself.

Grand Illusion grants permission to remove the C'tan (this model) from the board and up to D3 OTHER units (i.e., units that are NOT the unit the C'tan is part of). At no point does Grand Illusion grant permission to remove the rest of the C'tan's unit from the board.

I imagine it like this... Pants on Fire Fred is a C'tan Shard of the Deceiver. Fred is wily. Normally, when you run into him on the battlefield, he might sort of flicker a little and reappear somewhere else before the fight gets started. Today, however, Fred is being guided by two Crypteks, Wedge and Biggs. Now, Wedge and Biggs have done their homework. They know Fred is wily. They know he likes to flicker. They also know that Overlord Bob is going to be super pissed if they lose Fred. Hence, Wedge and Biggs have some cool tech that prevents Fred from flickering. So long as they're around - and they're definitely around at the start of the battle - Fred can't do his flicker trick. Wedge and Biggs have effectively locked him down to where he started.

Not and, and/or.

Grand illusion is absolutely still useable; it is just whether or not the model can bring his unit with him as one of the other units.

I say yes he can bring them as an other unit because of the vaguery in formations that force-combine units, especially with separate battlefield roles.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Not and, and/or.

Grand illusion is absolutely still useable; it is just whether or not the model can bring his unit with him as one of the other units.

I say yes he can bring them as an other unit because of the vaguery in formations that force-combine units, especially with separate battlefield roles.

Grand Illusion grants no permission to remove the Crypteks from the board after deployment. It only grants permission to remove the C'tan. If the C'tan and the Crypteks must remain together, the only possible outcome is that the C'tan can't use Grand Illusion.

Imagine that Bob and John are standing together in a line. I tell Bob that he has permission to skip to the front of the line. I also tell Bob that he must stay with John. I do not tell John that he can skip to the front of the line. Is Bob able to skip to the front of the line? Nope. He has permission to do so, but in doing so he would have to leave John and that's not allowed. John has no permission to skip to the front of the line, so Bob and John must stay where they are. Same exact situation with the C'tan. C'tan has permission to redeploy. C'tan must remain with Crypteks. Crypteks don't have permission to redeploy. Ergo, C'tan never experiences a situation where he can redeploy.

 Kriswall wrote:
Grand Illusion grants no permission to remove the Crypteks from the board after deployment. It only grants permission to remove the C'tan. If the C'tan and the Crypteks must remain together, the only possible outcome is that the C'tan can't use Grand Illusion.

It should be stated when that the Deceiver cannot use it on himself without breaking Cohesion. The other D3 units should still be available.

But you can move the Deciever fine?

So for example, I deploy my two Crypteks out in front, but see that I've left myself open to being melta'd in the face, so I re-deploy the Deciever to provide enough bubblewrap or at least to take the melta shots, while still maintaining coherency?

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave rule specifies that the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed during deployment, the remainder Conclave is no longer legally fielded and must be removed from the field.

And you still haven't found the rule that requires the rest of the unit to be removed because it cannot be legally fielded, yet?

The Conclave rule. If the Conclave is illegally fielded, can it remain on the field? No.

The Conclave rules does not state this requirement at all. Yes, it requires them all to be fielded as one unit. But the Conclave rule doesn't say that if the whole unit cannot be deployed, or if you remove one model in deployment, you remove the whole unit.

Since the Conclave rule doesn't state this, you must have the rule from the rulebook. So, where is it?

From Reserves BRB



My order of operations is correct.
1) Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver.
2) The Conclave cannot be fielded and is placed in Reserve.
3) Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver unit (aka the Conclave formation, the single unit that is comprised of 1 Deceiver and 2 Crypteks) to be immediately deployed again or placed in reserve


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Trying to claim the unit gets dragged along is the exact same as claiming a SM Captain on a bike can turboboost out his full distance from an infantry unit he is attached to and then the rest of the unit gets dragged along with him(yes turboboost is model-by-model, and the unit must stay in coherency) since the unit must stay in coherency and he cannot leave the unit in the shooting phase.

That example isn't comparable at all. A somewhat comparable situation occurs in the context of a squadron of flyers that have a special rule where they must be fielded as a single unit and cannot leave the unit. In that situation when one of the flyers in the squadron leaves the battlefield to go into ongoing reserves then all of them would go along with that flyer into ongoing reserves.

That example is the exact same situation; your unit is already deployed, you are trying to remove a model from deploy as a by-model special rule(same as turbo-boost), you are then claiming that the single model that you have removed allows you to remove the rest of the unit as this would place them out of coherency(same as moving the rest of the unit into coherency with the turbo-boosting bike).

You were able to deploy the conclave so the reserve rules there do not take effect; removing 1 model from the unit does not mean you are now unable to deploy the unit: you already did that.

You are not applying the rules you are scrambling for a justification for why you "must be right". You are wrong; accept it, it happens.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
That example is the exact same situation; your unit is already deployed, you are trying to remove a model from deploy as a by-model special rule(same as turbo-boost), you are then claiming that the single model that you have removed allows you to remove the rest of the unit as this would place them out of coherency(same as moving the rest of the unit into coherency with the turbo-boosting bike).

You were able to deploy the conclave so the reserve rules there do not take effect; removing 1 model from the unit does not mean you are now unable to deploy the unit: you already did that.

You are not applying the rules you are scrambling for a justification for why you "must be right". You are wrong; accept it, it happens.

Wrong. You are comparing movement to deployment. Coherency has nothing to do with it. Whether or not the unit can be fielded or not is what is at stake here. Find an example involving deployment and then we can maybe compare. You are just making a straw man argument. Another comparable example would be in a squadron of deep strikers with a similar rule requiring them to be fielded as a single, unleavable unit. The first 2 deep strike in fine, but the last one mishaps and goes into reserves. Even though the first 2 were deployed, the rules to field them as a single unit forces them all into reserves.

The Conclave is still in the deployment phase and a model in its unit is removed putting the Conclave into an undeployable state. The span of the rule that kicks in to put the Conclave in Reserves is broad in scope, as it covers the whole deployment phase and 'any reason'.

col_impact wrote:
From Reserves BRB

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve.

My order of operations is correct.
1) Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver.
2) The Conclave cannot be fielded and is placed in Reserve.
3) Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver unit (aka the Conclave formation, the single unit that is comprised of 1 Deceiver and 2 Crypteks) to be immediately deployed again or placed in reserve.

No, you are reversing things again, ignoring requirements,, and not answering the question. Letting the effect guide the cause.

The unit was properly deployed, so does not qualify as impossible to deploy at this point.

Removing the Deceiver is a voluntary action, not presenting a case of cannot deploy a unit.

Removing the Deceiver Model only makes the unit out of coherency. Where does it state that if a unit that loses coherency during deployment is removed?

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
From Reserves BRB

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve.

My order of operations is correct.
1) Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver.
2) The Conclave cannot be fielded and is placed in Reserve.
3) Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver unit (aka the Conclave formation, the single unit that is comprised of 1 Deceiver and 2 Crypteks) to be immediately deployed again or placed in reserve.

No, you are reversing things again, ignoring requirements,, and not answering the question. Letting the effect guide the cause.

The unit was properly deployed, so does not qualify as impossible to deploy at this point.

Removing the Deceiver is a voluntary action, not presenting a case of cannot deploy a unit.

Removing the Deceiver Model only makes the unit out of coherency. Where does it state that if a unit that loses coherency during deployment is removed?

We are not talking about coherency at all here.

Removing the Deceiver model makes it so that he cannot get back on in any way since it is only 'units' that can be redeployed or put in reserves by Grand Illusion, not models.



Everyone seems to be forgetting that critical nugget here, that Grand Illusion won't allow the Deceiver model back into play, since it is not a unit!

When Grand Illusion is activated the Conclave is placed in an undeployable state with one part of the unit deployed and another part undeployed and the Conclave is required to be fielded as a single unit.

It is not until the Reserves rule kicks in to put all of the now impossibly deployed Conclave back into Reserves that the Grand Illusion rule can even target the Deceiver 'unit' and allow the Deceiver unit to be redeployed.

Wrong again.

Deployment is over.

You have deployed your forces and are done. Your opponent has deployed their forces and are done.

Now you are removing a model from the unit via a special rule to redeploy it which is not allowed.

Maybe the word redeploy is what is causing your issue I do not know; but the unit was deployed in normal deployment so the rules you are trying to apply do not effect anything you are trying to claim.

You are wrong, get over it.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Wrong again.

Deployment is over.

You have deployed your forces and are done. Your opponent has deployed their forces and are done.

Now you are removing a model from the unit via a special rule to redeploy it which is not allowed.

Maybe the word redeploy is what is causing your issue I do not know; but the unit was deployed in normal deployment so the rules you are trying to apply do not effect anything you are trying to claim.

You are wrong, get over it.

Incorrect.

We are still in the Deployment Phase and subject to the reserve rule which checks for impossible deployments during the entirety of the Deployment Phase.

Removing the Deceiver model via Grand Illusion puts the Conclave unit in an impossibly deployed state.

The Deceiver (since he is a model and not a unit) is stuck in limbo until the Reserve rule kicks in and puts the Conclave unit in Reserves.

The Grand Illusion rule can then resolve on the Conclave unit.

When do you use grand illusion?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
When do you use grand illusion?

In Deployment

Is that what the rule says?

What does the rule say?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Is that what the rule says?

What does the rule say?

My answer is valid. Check the rule. We are still in Deployment and have not gone on to anything else. The rule happens in Deployment after everything else gets its business done, but we are still in Deployment.

From 'Grand Illusion' in Codex Necrons (emphasis added):

Grand Illusion: Immediately after all forces have deployed and all Scout redeployments have been made...

After, not during.

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Grand Illusion' in Codex Necrons (emphasis added):

Grand Illusion: Immediately after all forces have deployed and all Scout redeployments have been made...

After, not during.

We are sill in Deployment. The rule just stipulates that it does its deployment after everything else finishes their deployment, but we are still in Deployment and have not yet moved on to the next thing.

After is after, not during.

col_impact wrote:
[We are not talking about coherency at all here.

If we are not talking about coherency, than what is the problem?

If I seem to remember, being out of coherency is the reason you claim the unit is no longer properly deployed. Since the unit is no longer properly deployed, you feel you have a right to remove the Crypteks. Where does it state this?

Removing the Deceiver model makes it so that he cannot get back on in any way since it is only 'units' that can be redeployed or put in reserves by Grand Illusion, not models.

Spoiler:

Each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately
deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that critical nugget here, that Grand Illusion won't allow the Deceiver model back into play, since it is not a unit!

How don't see how that accusation flies since I was one of the first ones to mention it.

But that's not the first problem with your interpretation. The first is that you believe the Crypteks are bound by the Rules As Written to be removed from the table when Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver. You are using step 5 to get around Step 2's actions without properly justifying why a properly deployed unit suddenly counts as undeployed or impossible to deploy because one model leaves the table without being a Casualty or going in to Reserves?

When Grand Illusion is activated the Conclave is placed in an undeployable state with one part of the unit deployed and another part undeployed and the Conclave is required to be fielded as a single unit.

A rules reference on a unit being out of coherency after deployment becomes undeployable would be good here

It is not until the Reserves rule kicks in to put all of the now impossibly deployed Conclave back into Reserves that the Grand Illusion rule can even target the Deceiver 'unit' and allow the Deceiver unit to be redeployed.

Except, you haven't properly justified them being put in Reserves in the first place, nor allowing a unit to be in Reserves partially while they are not allowed to on the tabletop, nor allowing the Deceiver to be redeployed without his unit which is in Reserves.

 Ghaz wrote:
After is after, not during.

It does not say this

Grand Illusion: Immediately after Deployment...

We are still in Deployment and are now taking care of additional deployment business after all forces have been deployed and scout moves have been made.

Why are you so resistant to quote the rule as I had asked?

Does it physically pain you to type the words that show you are wrong? Or are you speaking without the rules at all?

Luckily ghaz was kind enough to do it for you: grand illusion is after deployment, the unit was legally deployed when the rules you are referencing were in effect. Now you are trying to remove a model from a unit and call upon rules pertaining to the deployment that has already happened.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
[We are not talking about coherency at all here.

If we are not talking about coherency, than what is the problem?

If I seem to remember, being out of coherency is the reason you claim the unit is no longer properly deployed. Since the unit is no longer properly deployed, you feel you have a right to remove the Crypteks. Where does it state this?

Removing the Deceiver model makes it so that he cannot get back on in any way since it is only 'units' that can be redeployed or put in reserves by Grand Illusion, not models.

Spoiler:

Each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately
deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that critical nugget here, that Grand Illusion won't allow the Deceiver model back into play, since it is not a unit!

How don't see how that accusation flies since I was one of the first ones to mention it.

But that's not the first problem with your interpretation. The first is that you believe the Crypteks are bound by the Rules As Written to be removed from the table when Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver. You are using step 5 to get around Step 2's actions without properly justifying why a properly deployed unit suddenly counts as undeployed or impossible to deploy because one model leaves the table without being a Casualty or going in to Reserves?

When Grand Illusion is activated the Conclave is placed in an undeployable state with one part of the unit deployed and another part undeployed and the Conclave is required to be fielded as a single unit.

A rules reference on a unit being out of coherency after deployment becomes undeployable would be good here

It is not until the Reserves rule kicks in to put all of the now impossibly deployed Conclave back into Reserves that the Grand Illusion rule can even target the Deceiver 'unit' and allow the Deceiver unit to be redeployed.

Except, you haven't properly justified them being put in Reserves in the first place, nor allowing a unit to be in Reserves partially while they are not allowed to on the tabletop, nor allowing the Deceiver to be redeployed without his unit which is in Reserves.

Coherency has nothing to do with it. Coherency has to do with units that are on the field.

We are dealing with a unit that is stuck in a state that is both deployed (on the field) and undeployed (off the field). It is impossible to deploy like that. So the rule kicks in and puts the whole unit into Reserves (Deceiver + 2 Crypteks). Then the Ghost Illusion is able to target the unit (since there is now a whole unit and not just a model to target)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Why are you so resistant to quote the rule as I had asked?

Does it physically pain you to type the words that show you are wrong? Or are you speaking without the rules at all?

Luckily ghaz was kind enough to do it for you: grand illusion is after deployment, the unit was legally deployed when the rules you are referencing were in effect. Now you are trying to remove a model from a unit and call upon rules pertaining to the deployment that has already happened.

We are still in Deployment when Ghost Illusion happens and are now taking care of additional deployment business after all forces have been deployed and scout moves have been made.

How is after deployment still in deployment?

How does removing a model from an already deployed unit make it so that that unit cannot fully deploy when it has already fully deployed?

col_impact wrote:
Coherency has nothing to do with it. Coherency has to do with units that are on the field.

And a deployed unit is not on the field?

We are dealing with a unit that is stuck in a state that is both deployed (on the field) and undeployed (off the field). It is impossible to deploy like that. So the rule kicks in and puts the whole unit into Reserves (Deceiver + 2 Crypteks). Then the Ghost Illusion is able to target the unit (since there is now a whole unit and not just a model to target)

So, what is the rule that says it is impossible to deploy like that?

And the unit has already deployed, it is not in the middle of being deployed.

Not to mention the Deceiver is not put in Reserves when it is removed from the table. If the Deceiver is not on the table, he cannot be removed from the table. If it has not been removed, it cannot be deployed.

End results do not give permission to ignore the first steps.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Why are you so resistant to quote the rule as I had asked?

Does it physically pain you to type the words that show you are wrong? Or are you speaking without the rules at all?

Luckily ghaz was kind enough to do it for you: grand illusion is after deployment, the unit was legally deployed when the rules you are referencing were in effect. Now you are trying to remove a model from a unit and call upon rules pertaining to the deployment that has already happened.

We are still in Deployment when Ghost Illusion happens and are now taking care of additional deployment business after all forces have been deployed and scout moves have been made.

Actually, it never states as such, one way or the other. It just states, "Immediately after all forces have deployed and all Scout redeployments have been made, you may remove..."

It happens right at the same time Deployment normally ends, and there are no player turns to give priority.

If you check the scouts rule it happens after both sides have deployed(including infiltrators) but before first turn.

So scouts itself is after deployment and grand illusion is after that.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
If you check the scouts rule it happens after both sides have deployed(including infiltrators) but before first turn.

So scouts itself is after deployment and grand illusion is after that.

Being after the units are deployed is not necessarily after deployment... The Standard Deployment Method includes rolling Siezing the Initiative. Scouts is not noted as being before or after this. All of this just happens between the last unit is deployed and the game's first turn starts. That's it. 6th Edition was a little more defined than this.

That is not what the rules say; determining first turn is a separate step in the pregame, and seize the initiative is part of that step.

First turn in the long written rules(which comes right after the deployment rules) states: "You and your opponent now need to decide who will have the first turn."

Now, as in at this point.

Seize the initiative is a subsection under this main heading.

First turn also tells you that the mission will tell you how to determine who has the first turn(also written as a sepatate step in the mission after deployment), and then goes on to suggest whoever deployed first has been found by the devs to be the best one to make that determination.

First turn and seize the initiative are also after deployment.

Charistoph wrote:
So, what is the rule that says it is impossible to deploy like that?

When the Deceiver is removed from the table, he is neither in the deployment zone nor in Reserve.

He stays removed from the table since Grand Illusion is only able to re-deploy units or put units in Reserve.

He is not legally deployed and by extension the Conclave is not legally deployed as a unit (since one of the models in the unit is in neither the deployment zone nor in Reserve).

The player is at a point where it is not possible to deploy the Conclave unit (the Deceiver model is stuck in a state which is neither in the deployment zone or in Reserve).

This rule kicks in . . .



That rule places the whole Conclave unit into reserves.

And then Grand Illusion rule comes into effect and the unit with the Deceiver model is now a valid target.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
That is not what the rules say; determining first turn is a separate step in the pregame, and seize the initiative is part of that step.

First turn in the long written rules(which comes right after the deployment rules) states: "You and your opponent now need to decide who will have the first turn."

Now, as in at this point.

Seize the initiative is a subsection under this main heading.

First turn also tells you that the mission will tell you how to determine who has the first turn(also written as a sepatate step in the mission after deployment), and then goes on to suggest whoever deployed first has been found by the devs to be the best one to make that determination.

First turn and seize the initiative are also after deployment.

This discussion of after, during, or whatever is not really worth exploring. The Grand Illusion rules say to use the rules for regular deployment. So even if we are somehow after Deployment (which we aren't), Grand Illusion will at the very least bring us back to a second Deployment step where the same old rules apply just the same.

Yes use the rules for regular deployment after you have deployed the unit and removed the model.

How are you removing the model while following the formation rules?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Yes use the rules for regular deployment after you have deployed the unit and removed the model.

How are you removing the model while following the formation rules?

We are still in Deployment but that is not something worth discussing anymore since it is wholly irrelevant.



I don't think removing the Deceiver from the table necessarily violates the "they cannot leave this unit" clause. For sure "they cannot leave this unit" means the Deceiver can't move out of coherency, which the Crypteks as IC would normally have the power to do. Removing the Deceiver from the table I take to be putting the Deceiver temporarily into an undefined limbo where something happens. What is important I think is that the end result of whatever happens must wind up with the Deceiver not having left the unit (ie still in unit coherency with the rest of the Conclave if the end result is back on the field or in reserves with the rest of the Conclave if the end result is to be in Reserves).

Considering it is the crux of your argument it us clearly worth discussing.

And removing the deceiver from the table keeps it in coherency how exactly?

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
So, what is the rule that says it is impossible to deploy like that?

Spoiler:

models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or
be held back in Reserve

When the Deceiver is removed from the table, he is neither in the deployment zone nor in Reserve.

Okay...

You do realize the question was regarding units, not models, right? That's the part that "allows" you to pull the Crypteks right after removing the Deceiver...

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Considering it is the crux of your argument it us clearly worth discussing.

And removing the deceiver from the table keeps it in coherency how exactly?

This isn't a coherency problem. Removing from the table is not movement and coherency cannot be measured until the Deceiver winds up back on the table and it is measured at specific times (at the end of movement phase, at the end of a unit's deployment).

Like I said, the end result of the process must wind up with the Deceiver in coherency or in reserves with the rest of the Conclave, never having left the unit.

The problem as I have shown is that the Deceiver cannot return to the table because the wording of the Ghost Illusion rules prevents models from returning to the table.

The Deceiver is stuck in a place where he cannot be deployed. He can only be deployed in the deployment zone or placed in reserves and not in the temporary limbo of the Ghost Illusion ability.

So the player winds up in a spot where he cannot possibly deploy the Conclave unit.

And the rules address what to do in that situation - put the whole unit in reserves.

The last bit is absolutely false(well it is all wrong but still); the rules do not tell you that if you cannot deploy a unit for any reason it must go in reserve. The rules tell you that if you cannot deploy a unit because there is not enough room for all the models on the table that it must go in reserve.

The line from the reserves rule you keep quoting is referring to the not enough room rule.

On top of that it was clearly possible to deploy the unit. You have already done it once. Then you are attempting to remove a model from the unit which is breaking the formation rule you quoted above(the model being removed from the unit is absolutely leaving that unit).

If your problem is that the deceiver cannot be redeployed than the answer is that he cannot be removed which, and I am goung to shout this because I am sick of re-typing the same words over and over again, IS NOT REQUIRED FOR GRAND ILLUSION. Removal of the deceiver model is entirely optional, that is what the and/or wording means; you can remove the model and d3 other units, or you can remove the model or d3 other units. Just remove the d3 other units and the rule still works perfectly fine.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The last bit is absolutely false(well it is all wrong but still); the rules do not tell you that if you cannot deploy a unit for any reason it must go in reserve. The rules tell you that if you cannot deploy a unit because there is not enough room for all the models on the table that it must go in reserve.

The line from the reserves rule you keep quoting is referring to the not enough room rule.

On top of that it was clearly possible to deploy the unit. You have already done it once. Then you are attempting to remove a model from the unit which is breaking the formation rule you quoted above(the model being removed from the unit is absolutely leaving that unit).

If your problem is that the deceiver cannot be redeployed than the answer is that he cannot be removed which, and I am goung to shout this because I am sick of re-typing the same words over and over again, IS NOT REQUIRED FOR GRAND ILLUSION. Removal of the deceiver model is entirely optional, that is what the and/or wording means; you can remove the model and d3 other units, or you can remove the model or d3 other units. Just remove the d3 other units and the rule still works perfectly fine.

This rule is not related to the 'not enough room' rule. It's in the Reserves section under Preparing Reserves . . .



. . . so this rule will trigger just fine in the current situation being discussed.

A model being removed from the table for the resolution of an effect is not leaving the unit. As fully documented in my prior post it only matters where it ends up at the end of movement or at the end of deployment when coherency is checked.
If you feel otherwise, feel free to show with rules, as I have, as to when and how the check for leaving a unit is performed.

Also, a player can make a choice that winds up leading to a unit that can't be deployed and no way forward except to pull the unit into reserves. Just because a player has other options he can choose the option that puts the unit into an undeployable state and forces this rule to trigger. . .

col_impact wrote:
This rule is not related to the 'not enough room' rule. It's in the Reserves section under Preparing Reserves . . .

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for
any reason, it must be placed in Reserve.

. . . so this rule will trigger just fine in the current situation being discussed.

A model being removed from the table for the resolution of an effect is not leaving the unit. As fully documented in my prior post it only matters where it ends up at the end of movement or at the end of deployment when coherency is checked.
If you feel otherwise, feel free to show with rules, as I have, as to when and how the check for leaving a unit is performed.

Also, a player can make a choice that winds up leading to a unit that can't be deployed and no way forward except to pull the unit into reserves. Just because a player has other options he can choose the option that puts the unit into an undeployable state and forces this rule to trigger. . .

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for
any reason, it must be placed in Reserve.

So, your order of operations is STILL wrong, no rules to justify removing a unit because a model is removed after being deployed (they have to be deployING to be diverted to Reserves), and your inability to demonstrate proper order compounds this.

This would be closest to accurate.
1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver from the tabletop from its unit (legal according to Basic vs Advanced, but leads to this barrel of worms), along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver attempts to be redeployed, but lacks the rest of its unit to be redeployed since they are still deployed.
4) Final unit deployment then fails and all three models are rejoined as a unit in Reserves.

So, the Crypteks are not removed until the Deceiver attempts to redeploy, not when the Deceiver is removed. The unit as a whole is put in Reserves, but cannot be deployed again until their Reserves Roll comes up, not immediately, or before the Sieze Initiative attempt is presented as an option.

So according to you, I can deploy all 3 of my basilisks(1 unit) with 1 on 1 corner of the table, 1 in the middle, and 1 in the far corner using long edge deploymen(for a total of roughly 32.5" between each model in the unit) because coherency is only during movement?

furthermore via scout redeployment, my scout sentinels could attempt to redeploy with one of them attempting to redeploy within impassable terrain then the whole unit goes into reserve because that model cannot redeploy there?

You're arguing

1) remove deceiver
2) conclave is illegaly deployed, so it is placed into reserves
3) redeploy

The problem here is with step 1.

How it should work in game is

1) Try to remove deceiver This fails as in order to do it, you must break the conclave rule
2) conclave is legally deployed and stays where it is.

When you are specifically trying to argue that because you have illegally deployed you get a do-over, you need to look at your deployment. you are not allowed to deploy illegally, It's illegal.

There is no way to say, because I have broken this rule , I am allowed to do this. You acknowledge that you have broken a rule, when you say that the crypteks are illegally deployed and must be removed.

The only way to deploy illegally , is to do something illegal, hence why you can't do it.

Basically, you must change your actions to prevent something illegal, not rectify it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

This would be closest to accurate.
1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver from the tabletop from its unit (legal according to Basic vs Advanced, but leads to this barrel of worms), along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver attempts to be redeployed, but lacks the rest of its unit to be redeployed since they are still deployed.
4) Final unit deployment then fails and all three models are rejoined as a unit in Reserves.

Basic Vs advanced doesn't work. It's Codex Vs Campaign supplement.

You may remove the deceiver, you may not leave the conclave. They have equal authority, but denying over rules permission.

Eg. (BRB vs BRB) Armor 2+ ,You may Ignore the wound on a 2+. Vs AP2 You may not ignore the wound with a 2+ armor save.

Same authority , but one denies your premission.

harkequin wrote:

This would be closest to accurate.
1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver from the tabletop from its unit (legal according to Basic vs Advanced, but leads to this barrel of worms), along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver attempts to be redeployed, but lacks the rest of its unit to be redeployed since they are still deployed.
4) Final unit deployment then fails and all three models are rejoined as a unit in Reserves.

Basic Vs advanced doesn't work. It's Codex Vs Campaign supplement.

Of course it does work, because it is removing a model from the unit's coherency on the table. Any issues specifically in this regard are rulebook rules which apply this basic standard. Or at least, they should be, since the Conclave rule does not state anything regarding the unit being deployed in coherency or similar. Since these concepts are not generated by the Conclave rule and alluded to at most, they MUST be in the rulebook.

harkequin wrote:
You may remove the deceiver, you may not leave the conclave. They have equal authority, but denying over rules permission.

Removing the model from the table is not removing it from the Conclave-generated unit, though. It is just removing it from being coherency with the unit in question and placing the model in an undeployed state without the rest of his unit.

Edit: Consider this: What if Grand Illusion was possessed by a Dire Avengers Exarch, and replace any reference of "Deceiver" with "Exarch".

They are already established in a unit, with no fancy rules forcing them to be in a unit. Indeed, all Conclave does is remove the restriction for Independent Characters to join a unit with a Monstrous Creature and the ability for Independent Characters to leave the unit they have joined. So, it is at this point that Basic Vs Advanced comes in to play to allow the Deceiver model to be removed from the unit's coherency on the tabletop (but not organizationally).

You go to remove the Exarch from redeployment. What rule at this exact point would justify the removal of the Dire Avenger models of the unit? What rule would prevent the removal of the Exarch?

Does that make what I keep asking col_impact for, clearer?

This would be closest to accurate.
1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver from the tabletop from its unit (legal according to Basic vs Advanced, but leads to this barrel of worms), along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver is a model and not a unit and not a valid target for Grand Illusion and is stuck off table. Conclave unit is stuck in a state of "impossible to deploy."
4) BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.
5) Deceiver is a model in a unit and now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

col_impact wrote:

5) Deceiver is a model in a unit and now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

Incorrect. The Deceiver unit at this point had not been removed from the table using Grand Illusion, nor placed in a position of awaiting Deployment designation that Grand Illusion provides. It has been placed in Reserves using the Preparing Reserves rule, hence, its deployment is over.

1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver model from the tabletop, along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver is a model and not a unit and not a valid target for Grand Illusion and is stuck off table. Conclave unit is stuck in a state of "impossible to deploy."
4) BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.
5) Deceiver is a model in a unit that had been removed from the table using Grand Illusion and is now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

col_impact wrote:


1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver model from the tabletop, along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver is a model and not a unit and not a valid target for Grand Illusion and is stuck off table. Conclave unit is stuck in a state of "impossible to deploy."
4) BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.
5) Deceiver is a model in a unit that had been removed from the table using Grand Illusion and is now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

So the unit goes into reserves? Then where do you get permission to redeploy them? It's either redeploy or put them in Reserves. If they are in Reserves you do not have permission to redeploy.

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:


1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver model from the tabletop, along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver is a model and not a unit and not a valid target for Grand Illusion and is stuck off table. Conclave unit is stuck in a state of "impossible to deploy."
4) BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.
5) Deceiver is a model in a unit that had been removed from the table using Grand Illusion and is now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

So the unit goes into reserves? Then where do you get permission to redeploy them? It's either redeploy or put them in Reserves. If they are in Reserves you do not have permission to redeploy.

Grand Illusion provides the permission.

It provides permission to redeploy or place in reserves. Not both.

 Happyjew wrote:
It provides permission to redeploy or place in reserves. Not both.

Grand Illusion is not the rule that places the Conclave unit in Reserves. Grand Illusion provides the Conclave unit the permission to redeploy or place in reserves.

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
It provides permission to redeploy or place in reserves. Not both.

Grand Illusion is not the rule that places the Conclave unit in Reserves. Grand Illusion provides the Conclave unit the permission to redeploy or place in reserves.

It grants that permission to any unit it removes from the table to redeploy. Grand Illusion only removed the Deceiver Model, not the unit. The Reserves rule is what removes the rest of the unit from the table.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
It provides permission to redeploy or place in reserves. Not both.

Grand Illusion is not the rule that places the Conclave unit in Reserves. Grand Illusion provides the Conclave unit the permission to redeploy or place in reserves.

It grants that permission to any unit it removes from the table to redeploy. Grand Illusion only removed the Deceiver Model, not the unit. The Reserves rule is what removes the rest of the unit from the table.

You are not incorrect. The strictest RAW interpretation would only allow Grand Illusion to pull the Conclave unit back into Reserves and not allow the redeployment of the Conclave. A strict read of "in this manner" would read "in this exact manner". So strict RAW means that Grand Illusion loses the ability to redeploy the Conclave. However, it retains the ability to pull the unit back into Reserves as I have detailed (which maintains some functionality).

However, a looser RAW interpretation would allow Grand Illusion to redeploy the Conclave since Grand Illusion was ultimately responsible for removing the whole unit off the table. A looser read of "in this manner" would read "in a manner using Grand Illusion" which my outlined steps allow.

I am comfortable with the looser RAW interpretation since I think RAI the Grand Illusion ability is supposed to be fully functional. The precise reason the Grand Illusion rule is not fully compatible with the Conclave formation is an inconsistent referencing of the Deceiver.



The first part of the rule refers to "the model" and the second part refers to each "unit" and implies to me that "this model" in the context of Grand Illusion is interchangeable with "C'tan shard unit" (and indeed is shorthand for it) since they are interchangeable in the context of a solitary MC.

In other words, the looser RAW allows in my opinion a way to line up RAW, RAI, and most people's sense of HYWPI.

col_impact wrote:
However, a looser RAW interpretation would allow Grand Illusion to redeploy the Conclave since Grand Illusion was ultimately responsible for removing the whole unit off the table. A looser read of "in this manner" would read "in a manner using Grand Illusion" which my outlined steps allow.

I am comfortable with the looser RAW interpretation since I think RAI the Grand Illusion ability is supposed to be fully functional. The precise reason the Grand Illusion rule is not fully compatible with the Conclave formation is an inconsistent referencing of the Deceiver.

Spoiler:

Grand Illusion: Immediately after all forces have deployed and all Scout redeployments
have been made, you may remove this model and/or up to D3 other friendly units within 12" of it from the table. Each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve.

The first part of the rule refers to "the model" and the second part refers to each "unit" and implies to me that "this model" in the context of Grand Illusion is interchangeable with "C'tan shard unit" (and indeed is shorthand for it) since they are interchangeable in the context of a solitary MC.

Sorry, still no. Grand Illusion does not allow for a model placed in Reserves to be redeployed. Only the units that it has pulled from the table. The Deceiver Conclave unit is not in a position of "pulled from the table", and its deployment determination has been decided, and Grand Illusion does not allow that to be overridden.

col_impact wrote:
In other words, the looser RAW allows in my opinion a way to line up RAW, RAI, and most people's sense of HYWPI.

If it's RAW, it is RAW, no need for HYWPI. Nice try going for a looser translation by using the cause of the cause is the real cause, but you are still skipping steps in order to get things to work. And skipping steps is never RAW.

OK I think I got this figured out.

1. Crypteks and C'tan Shard are deployed (I'm assuming a house rule to allow "C'tan Shard" = "C'tan Shard of the Deceiver").
2. Deceiver uses Grand Illusion and is removed from the table, forcing the formation into reserves (as per the previously mentioned rule).
3. Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver to re-deploy, but since it does not allow the Crypteks, the Deceiver is forced back into Reserves due to the aforementioned rule.

 Happyjew wrote:
OK I think I got this figured out.

1. Crypteks and C'tan Shard are deployed (I'm assuming a house rule to allow "C'tan Shard" = "C'tan Shard of the Deceiver").
2. Deceiver uses Grand Illusion and is removed from the table, forcing the formation into reserves (as per the previously mentioned rule).
3. Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver to re-deploy, but since it does not allow the Crypteks, the Deceiver is forced back into Reserves due to the aforementioned rule.

#2 and #3 is in error because the rule that Col_impact references only applies when you deploy the unit. The unit in question is already deployed, then becomes partially undeployed. The inability to deploy only happens when you try to deploy the Deceiver model back on the board. At this point, the Crypteks are removed from the table and the Deceiver is removed from "undeployed" and places both firmly in Reserves.

Their deployment state is now set. Grand Illusion has already removed the Deceiver and attempted to Deploy the Deceiver's unit. Grand Illusion provides no instruction nor permission to remove a unit from Reserves between the time it moves to deploy and the unit is actually deployed on the board.

Either way the formation is still in Reserves.

Actually, at no point are the crypteks removed from the table. There is never a rule that tells us that they are removed. The rule for the Grand Illusion tells us that the necron player can use this ability "immediately after all forces have deployed" and additionally, after scout redeployment. Deployment is finished. The rule that colon-impact says he can use to remove the rest of his crypteks is on page 135 under Reserves, and happens "When deploying their armies...", but by the time you are able to use the Grand Illusion, deployment is over.

So, if you use the Grand Illusion to remove the C'tan Shard from the table without the rest of his unit, the crypteks just sit there on the table and the C'tan Shard is moved out of unit coherency.

If the C'tan shard is placed elsewhere on the table, then the Shard and the crypteks must spend the next turn trying as hard as they can to get back into coherency.

If the shard is put in reserves, then he is removed from play as a casualty unless the crypteks eventually are also placed in reserves by some other ability because the rules never give a single model from a unit permission to come on from reserves - only units as a whole (permissive ruleset and all that). Normally the shard would be a unit, but because it is now part of the conclave of the burning one, it is no longer a unit of one, but rather a member of the conclave.

So no. Necron players do not get to use this loop-hole to their advantage, but rather they must either make the conclave one of the d3 units removed, or watch the shard sit in reserves the whole game.

 NightHowler wrote:
Actually, at no point are the crypteks removed from the table. There is never a rule that tells us that they are removed. The rule for the Grand Illusion tells us that the necron player can use this ability "immediately after all forces have deployed" and additionally, after scout redeployment. Deployment is finished. The rule that colon-impact says he can use to remove the rest of his crypteks is on page 135 under Reserves, and happens "When deploying their armies...", but by the time you are able to use the Grand Illusion, deployment is over.

So, if you use the Grand Illusion to remove the C'tan Shard from the table without the rest of his unit, the crypteks just sit there on the table and the C'tan Shard is moved out of unit coherency.

If the C'tan shard is placed elsewhere on the table, then the Shard and the crypteks must spend the next turn trying as hard as they can to get back into coherency.

If the shard is put in reserves, then he is removed from play as a casualty unless the crypteks eventually are also placed in reserves by some other ability because the rules never give a single model from a unit permission to come on from reserves - only units as a whole (permissive ruleset and all that). Normally the shard would be a unit, but because it is now part of the conclave of the burning one, it is no longer a unit of one, but rather a member of the conclave.

So no. Necron players do not get to use this loop-hole to their advantage, but rather they must either make the conclave one of the d3 units removed, or watch the shard sit in reserves the whole game.

Incorrect. Grand Illusion allows a redeploy using the normal Deployment rules



So the condition 'when deploying their armies' in this rule



. . . is fully met while the unit is redeploying via Grand Illusion since Grand Illusion uses 'the normal Deployment rules' and the units affected by Grand Illusion are allowed to revisit their deployment.

So the steps I outlined above are correct.

1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver model from the tabletop, along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver is a model and not a unit and not a valid target for Grand Illusion and is stuck off table. Conclave unit is stuck in a state of "impossible to deploy."
4) BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.
5) Deceiver is a model in a unit that had been removed from the table using Grand Illusion and is now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

Step 5 varies as noted in previous posts whether you go for a strict RAW or a looser RAW interpretation of 'each unit that is removed in this manner'

At third paragraph you start losing rules function.

If you remove the C'tan model alone he has no ability to redeploy at all as he is not a unit on his own per the conclave rule.

You cannot redeploy him, therefore he does not come back and all rules break(while illusion allows units to be placed in reserve and all other normal deployment rules to take effect, the C'tan is 1 model out of a unit that is already deployed)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
At third paragraph you start losing rules function.

If you remove the C'tan model alone he has no ability to redeploy at all as he is not a unit on his own per the conclave rule.

You cannot redeploy him, therefore he does not come back and all rules break(while illusion allows units to be placed in reserve and all other normal deployment rules to take effect, the C'tan is 1 model out of a unit that is already deployed)

Incorrect. As already stated this rule kicks in because the Conclave is not fully deployed

But it is not impossible to deploy the unit. Part of the unit is deployed, so the remainder (the C'tan) must re-deploy in coherency with the Crypteks.

col_impact wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
Actually, at no point are the crypteks removed from the table. There is never a rule that tells us that they are removed. The rule for the Grand Illusion tells us that the necron player can use this ability "immediately after all forces have deployed" and additionally, after scout redeployment. Deployment is finished. The rule that colon-impact says he can use to remove the rest of his crypteks is on page 135 under Reserves, and happens "When deploying their armies...", but by the time you are able to use the Grand Illusion, deployment is over.

So, if you use the Grand Illusion to remove the C'tan Shard from the table without the rest of his unit, the crypteks just sit there on the table and the C'tan Shard is moved out of unit coherency.

If the C'tan shard is placed elsewhere on the table, then the Shard and the crypteks must spend the next turn trying as hard as they can to get back into coherency.

If the shard is put in reserves, then he is removed from play as a casualty unless the crypteks eventually are also placed in reserves by some other ability because the rules never give a single model from a unit permission to come on from reserves - only units as a whole (permissive ruleset and all that). Normally the shard would be a unit, but because it is now part of the conclave of the burning one, it is no longer a unit of one, but rather a member of the conclave.

So no. Necron players do not get to use this loop-hole to their advantage, but rather they must either make the conclave one of the d3 units removed, or watch the shard sit in reserves the whole game.

Incorrect. Grand Illusion allows a redeploy using the normal Deployment rules FOR EACH UNIT REMOVED BY THE GRAND ILLUSION

Spoiler:

Each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately
deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve.

So the condition 'when deploying their armies' in this rule

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for
any reason, it must be placed in Reserve

. . . is fully met while the unit is redeploying via Grand Illusion since Grand Illusion uses 'the normal Deployment rules' and the units affected by Grand Illusion are allowed to revisit their deployment.

So the steps I outlined above are correct.

1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver model from the tabletop, along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver is a model and not a unit and not a valid target for Grand Illusion and is stuck off table. Conclave unit is stuck in a state of "impossible to deploy."
4) BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.
5) Deceiver is a model in a unit that had been removed from the table using Grand Illusion and is now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

Step 5 varies as noted in previous posts whether you go for a strict RAW or a looser RAW interpretation of 'each unit that is removed in this manner'

I fixed your statement for you there. And since the conclave unit was not removed using the Grand Illusion (only the shard is removed by that rule), the crypteks have no permission to go into reserves.

What happens if you remove the shard is the unit goes out of coherency. The shard cannot be redeployed because it is only part of a unit, so it goes into reserves, and since we have no permission for parts of units to come on from reserves the shard stays in reserves. The crypteks cannot do anything but try to get back into unit coherency, but since the missing model is off the table, they are unable to perform any actions at all.

Instead, what must happen if you take the conclave formation is that the conclave must be one of the d3 units or the events described above take place.

Sorry, that's just RAW.

 NightHowler wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
Actually, at no point are the crypteks removed from the table. There is never a rule that tells us that they are removed. The rule for the Grand Illusion tells us that the necron player can use this ability "immediately after all forces have deployed" and additionally, after scout redeployment. Deployment is finished. The rule that colon-impact says he can use to remove the rest of his crypteks is on page 135 under Reserves, and happens "When deploying their armies...", but by the time you are able to use the Grand Illusion, deployment is over.

So, if you use the Grand Illusion to remove the C'tan Shard from the table without the rest of his unit, the crypteks just sit there on the table and the C'tan Shard is moved out of unit coherency.

If the C'tan shard is placed elsewhere on the table, then the Shard and the crypteks must spend the next turn trying as hard as they can to get back into coherency.

If the shard is put in reserves, then he is removed from play as a casualty unless the crypteks eventually are also placed in reserves by some other ability because the rules never give a single model from a unit permission to come on from reserves - only units as a whole (permissive ruleset and all that). Normally the shard would be a unit, but because it is now part of the conclave of the burning one, it is no longer a unit of one, but rather a member of the conclave.

So no. Necron players do not get to use this loop-hole to their advantage, but rather they must either make the conclave one of the d3 units removed, or watch the shard sit in reserves the whole game.

Incorrect. Grand Illusion allows a redeploy using the normal Deployment rules FOR EACH UNIT REMOVED BY THE GRAND ILLUSION

Spoiler:

Each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately
deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve.

So the condition 'when deploying their armies' in this rule

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for
any reason, it must be placed in Reserve

. . . is fully met while the unit is redeploying via Grand Illusion since Grand Illusion uses 'the normal Deployment rules' and the units affected by Grand Illusion are allowed to revisit their deployment.

So the steps I outlined above are correct.

1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver model from the tabletop, along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver is a model and not a unit and not a valid target for Grand Illusion and is stuck off table. Conclave unit is stuck in a state of "impossible to deploy."
4) BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.
5) Deceiver is a model in a unit that had been removed from the table using Grand Illusion and is now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

Step 5 varies as noted in previous posts whether you go for a strict RAW or a looser RAW interpretation of 'each unit that is removed in this manner'

I fixed your statement for you there. And since the conclave unit was not removed using the Grand Illusion (only the shard is removed by that rule), the crypteks have no permission to go into reserves.

What happens if you remove the shard is the unit goes out of coherency. The shard cannot be redeployed because it is only part of a unit, so it goes into reserves, and since we have no permission for parts of units to come on from reserves the shard stays in reserves. The crypteks cannot do anything but try to get back into unit coherency, but since the missing model is off the table, they are unable to perform any actions at all.

Instead, what must happen if you take the conclave formation is that the conclave must be one of the d3 units or the events described above take place.

Sorry, that's just RAW.

Incorrect. Coherency has nothing to with. You cannot measure coherency between models on and off the table. Here is a refresher on coherency since you seem to have forgotten what the rules say . . .



When the Deceiver is removed the Conclave unit goes into a state of "impossible to deploy".

This rule kicks in . . .



Also the Grand Illusion rules do allow you to only use it on D3 other friendly units so you cannot spend the D3 on the Conclave unit without directly going against RAW.

Please show how the unit is impossible to deploy.

 Happyjew wrote:
Please show how the unit is impossible to deploy.

For the Conclave unit to be deployed all 3 models must be on the table.

When Grand Illusion goes off and the Deceiver is removed from the table he gets stuck there and cannot return to the table. The Conclave unit is in a state of 'impossible to deploy' at that point.

The BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.

col_impact wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
Actually, at no point are the crypteks removed from the table. There is never a rule that tells us that they are removed. The rule for the Grand Illusion tells us that the necron player can use this ability "immediately after all forces have deployed" and additionally, after scout redeployment. Deployment is finished. The rule that colon-impact says he can use to remove the rest of his crypteks is on page 135 under Reserves, and happens "When deploying their armies...", but by the time you are able to use the Grand Illusion, deployment is over.

So, if you use the Grand Illusion to remove the C'tan Shard from the table without the rest of his unit, the crypteks just sit there on the table and the C'tan Shard is moved out of unit coherency.

If the C'tan shard is placed elsewhere on the table, then the Shard and the crypteks must spend the next turn trying as hard as they can to get back into coherency.

If the shard is put in reserves, then he is removed from play as a casualty unless the crypteks eventually are also placed in reserves by some other ability because the rules never give a single model from a unit permission to come on from reserves - only units as a whole (permissive ruleset and all that). Normally the shard would be a unit, but because it is now part of the conclave of the burning one, it is no longer a unit of one, but rather a member of the conclave.

So no. Necron players do not get to use this loop-hole to their advantage, but rather they must either make the conclave one of the d3 units removed, or watch the shard sit in reserves the whole game.

Incorrect. Grand Illusion allows a redeploy using the normal Deployment rules FOR EACH UNIT REMOVED BY THE GRAND ILLUSION

Spoiler:

Each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately
deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve.

So the condition 'when deploying their armies' in this rule

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for
any reason, it must be placed in Reserve

. . . is fully met while the unit is redeploying via Grand Illusion since Grand Illusion uses 'the normal Deployment rules' and the units affected by Grand Illusion are allowed to revisit their deployment.

So the steps I outlined above are correct.

1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver model from the tabletop, along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver is a model and not a unit and not a valid target for Grand Illusion and is stuck off table. Conclave unit is stuck in a state of "impossible to deploy."
4) BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.
5) Deceiver is a model in a unit that had been removed from the table using Grand Illusion and is now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

Step 5 varies as noted in previous posts whether you go for a strict RAW or a looser RAW interpretation of 'each unit that is removed in this manner'

I fixed your statement for you there. And since the conclave unit was not removed using the Grand Illusion (only the shard is removed by that rule), the crypteks have no permission to go into reserves.

What happens if you remove the shard is the unit goes out of coherency. The shard cannot be redeployed because it is only part of a unit, so it goes into reserves, and since we have no permission for parts of units to come on from reserves the shard stays in reserves. The crypteks cannot do anything but try to get back into unit coherency, but since the missing model is off the table, they are unable to perform any actions at all.

Instead, what must happen if you take the conclave formation is that the conclave must be one of the d3 units or the events described above take place.

Sorry, that's just RAW.

Incorrect.

You keep on using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

col_impact wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
At third paragraph you start losing rules function.

If you remove the C'tan model alone he has no ability to redeploy at all as he is not a unit on his own per the conclave rule.

You cannot redeploy him, therefore he does not come back and all rules break(while illusion allows units to be placed in reserve and all other normal deployment rules to take effect, the C'tan is 1 model out of a unit that is already deployed)

Incorrect. As already stated this rule kicks in because the Conclave is not fully deployed

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for
any reason, it must be placed in Reserve

Incorrect again.

The unit had already been fully deployed, now you have removed a model from the unit with no ability to redeploy that model(its unit is already deployed); this does not magically remove the unit, nor effect the unit in anyway.

The closest to rules you can get is that the deceiver is just gone.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
At third paragraph you start losing rules function.

If you remove the C'tan model alone he has no ability to redeploy at all as he is not a unit on his own per the conclave rule.

You cannot redeploy him, therefore he does not come back and all rules break(while illusion allows units to be placed in reserve and all other normal deployment rules to take effect, the C'tan is 1 model out of a unit that is already deployed)

Incorrect. As already stated this rule kicks in because the Conclave is not fully deployed

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for
any reason, it must be placed in Reserve

Incorrect again.

The unit had already been fully deployed, now you have removed a model from the unit with no ability to redeploy that model(its unit is already deployed); this does not magically remove the unit, nor effect the unit in anyway.

The closest to rules you can get is that the deceiver is just gone.

In this case, part of the unit has been undeployed, and the full unit is undeployed. He cannot deploy the full unit in this new manner now, so that is what triggers the Reserves entry rule.

Of course, that is assuming that when one starts deploying a unit that is already on the table to finish deploying it, that one cannot begin again and the unit as a whole is undeployable.

Still, I'm wondering where the rule is that when a unit is deployed during deployment, it must be deployed in its entirety. I know the different Reserves rules cover it, but I cannot seem to find it for just regular deployment.

Undeployed isn't even a word.

The model gets removed from the table after the unit was fully and properly deployed; does taking a casualty from a unit throw that unit into reserves mid-game?

No, it does not.

There are 2 parts to the rule: remove the model(with/or d3 other units), then deploy units. When the deceiver is not in a conclave that model is also a unit on its own si this verbiage works fine; you can remove the model then deploy that single-model unit. When he is with the conclave you could remove the model, but then you cannot deploy it in any fashion because it is not a unit and you are not allowed to remove the rest of the unit(uless we are counting the rest of the unit as an other unit) so either RAW you cannot remove the model as that would be akin to leaving the unit, or RAW once you remove the model it is simply gone(it has no allowance to be deployed anywhere), while the rest of the unit remains in place as if they had taken a casualty in game(they have already legally deployed)

There are no shenanigans of retroactively making the legal deployment no longer legal, the time for that has passed.

As to your last paragraph: the rules there are under the standard deployment rules, subheading: not enough room.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Undeployed isn't even a word.

Sure it is. Google it. It's just not literally used in this case.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The model gets removed from the table after the unit was fully and properly deployed; does taking a casualty from a unit throw that unit into reserves mid-game?

No, it does not.

There is a large difference between what Grand Illusion does, being removed as a casualty, and even going in to Ongoing Reserves. Grand Illusion is actually closer to what Gate of Infinity and the Veil of Darkness does. It removed the models in question from the board and redeploys them according to the rest of the rules.

This time between removal and deploying is never actually defined with a name or a status, except removed from the table. Indeed, the status is closer to being in deployment than in Reserves or as a casualty.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
There are 2 parts to the rule: remove the model(with/or d3 other units), then deploy units. When the deceiver is not in a conclave that model is also a unit on its own si this verbiage works fine; you can remove the model then deploy that single-model unit. When he is with the conclave you could remove the model, but then you cannot deploy it in any fashion because it is not a unit and you are not allowed to remove the rest of the unit(uless we are counting the rest of the unit as an other unit) so either RAW you cannot remove the model as that would be akin to leaving the unit, or RAW once you remove the model it is simply gone(it has no allowance to be deployed anywhere), while the rest of the unit remains in place as if they had taken a casualty in game(they have already legally deployed)

OR you cannot fully deploy the unit since you cannot deploy the Deceiver and they all go in to Reserves, because it is impossible to deploy the unit (again).

OR you can consider placing the Deceiver on the board as finishing the Deploying of the Deceiver (Conclave) unit, just like if you used two hands to put out the Crypteks, and then went back an picked up the Deceiver model to deploy it.

It's a very weird and confusing mish-mash of rules never meant to work together.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
As to your last paragraph: the rules there are under the standard deployment rules, subheading: not enough room.

No, it does not. That only addresses the inability to do so according to room. Not Enough Room is when it is physically impossible to put them on the field (and yes, I know a local guy who does that with IG, in Apocalypse, across 3 tables, lengthwise). Nothing in there when this is done by choice, or if reversed by choice. Nothing on deploying in deployment in unit coherency, either (though, this part is rather stupid since you'd spend at least one turn trying to get back in to Coherency unless you go second and the out of coherency models get removed).


The biggest problem here is Grand Illusion (not to mention the rules general) never foresaw the need to consider the C'tan Shard of the Deceiver unit as being part of the Conclave. Or that we would Sandbox it out. If this was a computer program, it would probably balk and crash as soon as you selected the Deceiver to redeploy. However, we are more intelligent than a computer and go beyond the programming, thank goodness.

Charistoph wrote:
OR you cannot fully deploy the unit since you cannot deploy the Deceiver and they all go in to Reserves, because it is impossible to deploy the unit (again).

This is the part I find no rules to support.

You have deployed your unit successfully on the table.

Then, after deployment, AND after scout redeployment, you use a special rule to move one model out of coherency from the conclave unit. Nothing I see says "if you use a special rule to move out of coherency, you may place that unit in reserves", and much less do I see any rules saying you can then use that same special rule to put that unit on the board somewhere else.

This is a permissive rule set, and while the Grand Illusion gives you permission to remove the shard from the table, it does not give you permission to move him out of coherency from his unit. So the most logical interpretation of this rules conflict is that he may not be removed from the table because it would move him out of coherency.

If you want to use the Grand Illusion to take the shard off the table, you will only have permission to do so (without breaking any other rules) if you pick his unit as one of the d3 units.

If you decide to break unit coherency rules and just take the shard off the table, then the crypteks are out of coherency and may not perform any action except to get back into coherency as soon as they can, and the shard no longer has permission to return from reserves because we are never given permission for parts of a unit to come on from reserves, so the unit is effectively destroyed until you find a way to get the crypteks into reserves as well, and then the whole unit can come back on the table together. However, no rule yet presented gives the crypteks permission to take a "free ride" into reserves - they were successfully deployed and breaking coherency does not "undeploy" them, it just breaks coherency.

 NightHowler wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
OR you cannot fully deploy the unit since you cannot deploy the Deceiver and they all go in to Reserves, because it is impossible to deploy the unit (again).

This is the part I find no rules to support.

You have deployed your unit successfully on the table.

Then, after deployment, AND after scout redeployment, you use a special rule to move one model out of coherency from the conclave unit. Nothing I see says "if you use a special rule to move out of coherency, you may place that unit in reserves", and much less do I see any rules saying you can then use that same special rule to put that unit on the board somewhere else.

Actually, Grand Illusion does say that you can pull the model out of coherency, indirectly at least. And I cannot find a rule that states a unit must be deployed in coherency and must stay in coherency during deployment. So, Grand Illusion violates nothing to do this portion of its job.

 NightHowler wrote:
This is a permissive rule set, and while the Grand Illusion gives you permission to remove the shard from the table, it does not give you permission to move him out of coherency from his unit. So the most logical interpretation of this rules conflict is that he may not be removed from the table because it would move him out of coherency.

If it was just movement, then yes, you would be correct. but then unit coherency is only checked for movement. And Grand Illusion specifically states that you may remove the model from the table. True, it doesn't say you can remove it out of coherency, but to be fair, that really isn't a rule in deployment, either.

 NightHowler wrote:
If you want to use the Grand Illusion to take the shard off the table, you will only have permission to do so (without breaking any other rules) if you pick his unit as one of the d3 units.

Except they have to be OTHER units, which only adds to the problem, and they don't technically have to be removed together. At least, so far as I can find in the current ruleset.

 NightHowler wrote:
If you decide to break unit coherency rules and just take the shard off the table, then the crypteks are out of coherency and may not perform any action except to get back into coherency as soon as they can, and the shard no longer has permission to return from reserves because we are never given permission for parts of a unit to come on from reserves, so the unit is effectively destroyed until you find a way to get the crypteks into reserves as well, and then the whole unit can come back on the table together. However, no rule yet presented gives the crypteks permission to take a "free ride" into reserves - they were successfully deployed and breaking coherency does not "undeploy" them, it just breaks coherency.

Actually, in order to use the rule Col_Impact keeps referencing, and the line you are using, the UNIT just needs to be undeployable to put the whole thing in Reserves, not just any of the models. And a part of the unit just became undeployable since it lacks permission to be deployed except as a unit and left in a "pre-deployed" position.

It sucks, but it is a very wacky situation that the writer(s) of Grand Illusion did not even think to check before they sent it out for final release.

Charistoph wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
OR you cannot fully deploy the unit since you cannot deploy the Deceiver and they all go in to Reserves, because it is impossible to deploy the unit (again).

This is the part I find no rules to support.

You have deployed your unit successfully on the table.

Then, after deployment, AND after scout redeployment, you use a special rule to move one model out of coherency from the conclave unit. Nothing I see says "if you use a special rule to move out of coherency, you may place that unit in reserves", and much less do I see any rules saying you can then use that same special rule to put that unit on the board somewhere else.

Actually, Grand Illusion does say that you can pull the model out of coherency, indirectly at least. And I cannot find a rule that states a unit must be deployed in coherency and must stay in coherency during deployment. So, Grand Illusion violates nothing to do this portion of its job.

 NightHowler wrote:
This is a permissive rule set, and while the Grand Illusion gives you permission to remove the shard from the table, it does not give you permission to move him out of coherency from his unit. So the most logical interpretation of this rules conflict is that he may not be removed from the table because it would move him out of coherency.

If it was just movement, then yes, you would be correct. but then unit coherency is only checked for movement. And Grand Illusion specifically states that you may remove the model from the table. True, it doesn't say you can remove it out of coherency, but to be fair, that really isn't a rule in deployment, either.

 NightHowler wrote:
If you want to use the Grand Illusion to take the shard off the table, you will only have permission to do so (without breaking any other rules) if you pick his unit as one of the d3 units.

Except they have to be OTHER units, which only adds to the problem, and they don't technically have to be removed together. At least, so far as I can find in the current ruleset.

 NightHowler wrote:
If you decide to break unit coherency rules and just take the shard off the table, then the crypteks are out of coherency and may not perform any action except to get back into coherency as soon as they can, and the shard no longer has permission to return from reserves because we are never given permission for parts of a unit to come on from reserves, so the unit is effectively destroyed until you find a way to get the crypteks into reserves as well, and then the whole unit can come back on the table together. However, no rule yet presented gives the crypteks permission to take a "free ride" into reserves - they were successfully deployed and breaking coherency does not "undeploy" them, it just breaks coherency.

Actually, in order to use the rule Col_Impact keeps referencing, and the line you are using, the UNIT just needs to be undeployable to put the whole thing in Reserves, not just any of the models. And a part of the unit just became undeployable since it lacks permission to be deployed except as a unit and left in a "pre-deployed" position.

It sucks, but it is a very wacky situation that the writer(s) of Grand Illusion did not even think to check before they sent it out for final release.

Why would they check for this situation? The Deceiver is a MC so cannot be joined by ICs. The Deceiver is not an IC so cannot join units. The formation in question requires a C'tan Shard (not C'tan Shard of the Deceiver/NIghtbringer) and as such is currently unusable without a houserule. SInce the entire situation has to be house-ruled to begin with, however the special rule is going to work must also be a houserule.

With the deciever in the conclave, then removed; there is nothing to put him back onto the table. He is not a unit and his unit is already deployed. Units are what get deployed.

I said this from the beginning and a few times after but not in the last 3 pages so: The Deceiver is normally a unit of 1 model that can never be joined, his rules work fine when not in a conclave as his model gets removed from the table and then that unit of 1 Deceiver gets redeployed. When he is part of the conclave the model gets removed and then have no permission for redeployment. His unit has already been deployed legally and therefore remain in the deployed state. You have removed a model from the unit that cannot return so it is effectively lost.

 Happyjew wrote:
Why would they check for this situation? The Deceiver is a MC so cannot be joined by ICs. The Deceiver is not an IC so cannot join units. The formation in question requires a C'tan Shard (not C'tan Shard of the Deceiver/NIghtbringer) and as such is currently unusable without a houserule. SInce the entire situation has to be house-ruled to begin with, however the special rule is going to work must also be a houserule.

Because they released a book less than 3 months before which did the thing we are talking about and also had access to Grand Illusion (albeit a different version) is why they should have checked on it. The unit name in question is the "C'tan Shard of the Deceiver", and could easily be construed justified as being a "C'tan Shard".

But yeah, this one is going to be a little House Ruled to work, no matter which Shard you choose to put in. And all but col_impact seems to think so. I know Kommissar Kel and I both posted a HIWPI on the first page. Only col_impact seems to think this will work as Written without trying to translate Intention.

Thinking about it I think one can use Grand illusion to redeploy the entire conclave of the burning one because conclave of the burning one would count as an other friendly unit would it not? So when using the grand illusion one would have to count the conclave as part of the D3 units.