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If I take the C'tan shard of the deceiver as the C'tan shard for the conclave formation how does Grand illusion effect the unit? In grand illusion it says you can take the c'tan and redeploy him but now he is part of a unit of more than just him.

The Conclave rule enforces that the crypteks and the C'tan shard stick together so the crypteks re-deploy with the C'tan shard.

I wasn't quite sure because under grand illusion it says "you may remove this model " and not 'may remove this unit'

"This model and d3 other units"

The whole unit does not count as "this model" models and units are different. However the whole unit could be considered as 1 of the d3 "other units".

The conclave and similar formations that force multiple units to join together and cannot leave has a goofy interaction with rules dependent on certain units. This is a perfect example as normally the C'tan shard is a unit unto itself and then the crypteks are another unit, now they are 1 unit that supersedes the normal IC rules(joined together via formation rules not IC rules) we also have no idea whay battlefield role the combined unit has(C'tan is elite, Crypteks are HQ).

So anyways, the model and 1(d3) "other unit(s)" get redeployed, the unit is not a C'tan shard unit so it is an "other unit" and you can always redeploy at least 1 other unit. The rules work fine when all are applied.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
"This model and d3 other units"

The whole unit does not count as "this model" models and units are different. However the whole unit could be considered as 1 of the d3 "other units".

The conclave and similar formations that force multiple units to join together and cannot leave has a goofy interaction with rules dependent on certain units. This is a perfect example as normally the C'tan shard is a unit unto itself and then the crypteks are another unit, now they are 1 unit that supersedes the normal IC rules(joined together via formation rules not IC rules) we also have no idea whay battlefield role the combined unit has(C'tan is elite, Crypteks are HQ).

So anyways, the model and 1(d3) "other unit(s)" get redeployed, the unit is not a C'tan shard unit so it is an "other unit" and you can always redeploy at least 1 other unit. The rules work fine when all are applied.

The C'tan shard does not refer to it's own unit (which is now a Conclave unit) as an "other unit."

The Conclave rule fuses the crypteks to wherever the C'tan shard goes

col_impact wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
"This model and d3 other units"

The whole unit does not count as "this model" models and units are different. However the whole unit could be considered as 1 of the d3 "other units".

The conclave and similar formations that force multiple units to join together and cannot leave has a goofy interaction with rules dependent on certain units. This is a perfect example as normally the C'tan shard is a unit unto itself and then the crypteks are another unit, now they are 1 unit that supersedes the normal IC rules(joined together via formation rules not IC rules) we also have no idea whay battlefield role the combined unit has(C'tan is elite, Crypteks are HQ).

So anyways, the model and 1(d3) "other unit(s)" get redeployed, the unit is not a C'tan shard unit so it is an "other unit" and you can always redeploy at least 1 other unit. The rules work fine when all are applied.

The C'tan shard does not refer to it's own unit (which is now a Conclave unit) as an "other unit."

The Conclave rule fuses the crypteks to wherever the C'tan shard goes

Correct, but Grand Illusion only allows for the Deceiver Model plus additional units to be moved.

The Kommisar is correct for RAW. The Cryptek can be moved with the Deceiver, but would require one of the D3 slots to do so, by RAW.

However, I would allow the Crypteks to not have to use one of the D3 if the player is nice enough.

The shard does not refer to its own unit at all; only "this model". That model is also, normally, a unit unto itself.

Without using the crypteks in its unit as a whole from the formation (again speaking strictly RAW) as one of the "other" units grand illusion cannot be used on the shard in any way (luckily it is phrased and/or, so you could use it simply on d3 other units) as it does not state "C'tan shard of the deciever unit" or "this model and its unit" or this model's unit" or even "this unit"

The Conclave rule forces the Conclave to be fielded as a "single unit" and they are not allowed to leave the single unit. Read the rule.

When the C'tan shard is re-deployed, the crypteks go along because they are part of that "single unit" and are not allowed to leave it.

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave rule forces the Conclave to be fielded as a "single unit" and they are not allowed to leave the single unit. Read the rule.

When the C'tan shard is re-deployed, the crypteks go along because they are part of that "single unit" and are not allowed to leave it.

Not in argument. But, either the Combined unit uses one of the D3 options, the Deceiver limits his redeployment to be in coherency, or the unit starts the game Out of Coherency.

Your choice.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave rule forces the Conclave to be fielded as a "single unit" and they are not allowed to leave the single unit. Read the rule.

When the C'tan shard is re-deployed, the crypteks go along because they are part of that "single unit" and are not allowed to leave it.

Not in argument. But, either the Combined unit uses one of the D3 options, the Deceiver limits his redeployment to be in coherency, or the unit starts the game Out of Coherency.

Your choice.

Incorrect. They are fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard re-deploys, they are re-fielded along with him.

Incorrect, the C'tan's rule only calls for that model, not his unit; which I have said twice already and the quote from the rule is already posted above.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Incorrect, the C'tan's rule only calls for that model, not his unit; which I have said twice already and the quote from the rule is already posted above.

Incorrect. The Grand Illusion rule refers to unit.



Note it does not say



So in order for Grand Illusion to work at all on the C'tan shard we can be confident that the rule removes the C'tan shard unit from the table.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave rule forces the Conclave to be fielded as a "single unit" and they are not allowed to leave the single unit. Read the rule.

When the C'tan shard is re-deployed, the crypteks go along because they are part of that "single unit" and are not allowed to leave it.

Not in argument. But, either the Combined unit uses one of the D3 options, the Deceiver limits his redeployment to be in coherency, or the unit starts the game Out of Coherency.

Your choice.

Incorrect. They are fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard re-deploys, they are re-fielded along with him.

If the rule referenced redeploying the unit, you would be correct. But the rule states "this model and D3units". Rules that only apply to models do not affect an entire unit.

Yes it tells you how to redeploy units; but only lets you redeploy "this model and/or up to 3 other units".

Now, had you been paying attention, it has already been pointed out that outside of this formation that model is also normally a unit on its own, within this formation that model is just a member of a unit that it cannot redeploy(RAW the unit can only be one of the "other units", or since it is the same unit as this model simply cannot redeploy; we are taking the first as a compromise as both are RAW-valid); as it does not say "this model's unit" or any of the permutations to that I listed hours ago the rules on redeploying units does nothing to allow the formation-forced unit as the rule does not grant them general allowance by virtue of being a unit alone.

Selective quoting as always. From Grand Illusion in Codex Necrons:

Grand Illusion: Immediately after all forces have deployed and all Scout redeployments have been made, you may remove this model and/or up to D3 other friendly units within 12" of it from the table. Each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve.

 Ghaz wrote:
Selective quoting as always. From Grand Illusion in Codex Necrons:

Grand Illusion: Immediately after all forces have deployed and all Scout redeployments have been made, you may remove this model and/or up to D3 other friendly units within 12" of it from the table. Each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve.

The rules in question were already fully quoted above. The argument has advanced to the point where we are parsing portions of the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Yes it tells you how to redeploy units; but only lets you redeploy "this model and/or up to 3 other units".

Now, had you been paying attention, it has already been pointed out that outside of this formation that model is also normally a unit on its own, within this formation that model is just a member of a unit that it cannot redeploy(RAW the unit can only be one of the "other units", or since it is the same unit as this model simply cannot redeploy; we are taking the first as a compromise as both are RAW-valid); as it does not say "this model's unit" or any of the permutations to that I listed hours ago the rules on redeploying units does nothing to allow the formation-forced unit as the rule does not grant them general allowance by virtue of being a unit alone.

The Conclave requires the formation to be fielded as a single unit. If the C'tan shard model is being re-fielded, then the rest of the single unit formation is being re-fielded.

I think you are getting confused here and thinking of the Grand Illusion as a move. It is not a move. We are still in deployment. So the requirement that the Conclave is fielded as a single unit comes in effect.

We have taken that into account; there are only 2 options under "break no rules": C'tan itself(and therefore the crypteks in his unit) cannot ok. ao(RAW allows for this option, in fact it is pure RAW via the and/or verbiage in the rule), or you allow "this model" and d3 "other units" to redeploy including the new unit he is in as am "other unit".

Both of those options break no rules. Allowing "this model" to redeploy and bring his unit with him does, because now you are never given permission to redeploy the unit this model is in, and you are denied from reploying or holding in reserves any partial units or out of coherency.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
We have taken that into account; there are only 2 options under "break no rules": C'tan itself(and therefore the crypteks in his unit) cannot ok. ao(RAW allows for this option, in fact it is pure RAW via the and/or verbiage in the rule), or you allow "this model" and d3 "other units" to redeploy including the new unit he is in as am "other unit".

Both of those options break no rules. Allowing "this model" to redeploy and bring his unit with him does, because now you are never given permission to redeploy the unit this model is in, and you are denied from reploying or holding in reserves any partial units or out of coherency.

No, you have not taken the fact that we are still in deployment into account. Conclave requires the fielding of the formation as a single unit and that they cannot leave each other. By force of rule they are fused together in issues of deployment.

If you allow the C'tan to be removed separately from the formation in any shape or fashion, you break three rules.

1) The Conclave rule which requires the formation to be fielded as a single unit.
2) The Conclave rule that says the C'tan cannot leave the unit.
3) The Grand Illusion rule which only allows a unit (and not models) to be re-deployed. A C'tan shard in the Conclave formation cannot be a unit in and of itself while the crypteks exist.

Also you are not allowed to use the D3 on the crypteks as they are not "other units". The crypteks form a single unit with the C'tan in the formation. They are required to be handled as one.

col_impact wrote:
No, you have not taken the fact that we are still in deployment into account. Conclave requires the fielding of the formation as a single unit and that they cannot leave each other. By force of rule they are fused together in issues of deployment.

If you allow the C'tan to be removed separately from the formation in any shape or fashion, you break three rules.

1) The Conclave rule which requires the formation to be fielded as a single unit.
2) The Conclave rule that says the C'tan cannot leave the unit.
3) The Grand Illusion rule which only allows a unit (and not models) to be re-deployed. A C'tan shard in the Conclave formation cannot be a unit in and of itself while the crypteks exist.

Also you are not allowed to use the D3 on the crypteks as they are not "other units". The crypteks form a single unit with the C'tan in the formation. They are required to be handled as one.

No, being in deployment is taken in account. Unless a unit has Scout or another rule to redeploy, the unit cannot redeploy.

The Deceiver MODEL is allowed to redeploy, the Crypteks must use something else.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
No, you have not taken the fact that we are still in deployment into account. Conclave requires the fielding of the formation as a single unit and that they cannot leave each other. By force of rule they are fused together in issues of deployment.

If you allow the C'tan to be removed separately from the formation in any shape or fashion, you break three rules.

1) The Conclave rule which requires the formation to be fielded as a single unit.
2) The Conclave rule that says the C'tan cannot leave the unit.
3) The Grand Illusion rule which only allows a unit (and not models) to be re-deployed. A C'tan shard in the Conclave formation cannot be a unit in and of itself while the crypteks exist.

Also you are not allowed to use the D3 on the crypteks as they are not "other units". The crypteks form a single unit with the C'tan in the formation. They are required to be handled as one.

No, being in deployment is taken in account. Unless a unit has Scout or another rule to redeploy, the unit cannot redeploy.

The Deceiver MODEL is allowed to redeploy, the Crypteks must use something else.

You are not accounting for the 2 Conclave rules and 1 Grand Illusion rule that you break as noted in the words of mine that you quoted.

The Deceiver model and the crypteks are fused together. The Deceiver model can only redeploy if the crypteks redeploy right along with it in the single unit that cannot be left.

col_impact wrote:
You are not accounting for the 2 Conclave rules and 1 Grand Illusion rule that you break as noted in the words of mine that you quoted.

That's because you misquoted. Why should I take a misqouted portion of a rule in to account?

col_impact wrote:
The Deceiver model and the crypteks are fused together. The Deceiver model can only redeploy if the crypteks redeploy right along with it in the single unit that cannot be left.

Really? Where does it state that if a model redeploys, the rest of its unit must do so? I do not remember it being in the Conclave or Grand Illusion's rules. Please elucidate.

What I see:

That they must be joined and stay in coherency isn't in issue, nor have we stated otherwise. It is the fact that Crypteks as ICs do not gain the Special Rules of the units they join, and so do not possess Grand Illusion in and of themselves. Grand Illusion does not state that the unit of the Deceiver to be removed, just the model with the rule. Grand Illusion also states that D3 other units may also be removed, and that could include the unit the Crypteks are in.

The Conclave rule does not state that the Crypteks gain the C'tan Shards special rules. It does not state that if one model (or the C'tan) is redeployed, they all redeploy. Just that they are a single unit and cannot leave each other.

The other alternative is that the Deceiver cannot be removed at all.

Charistoph wrote:
That they must be joined and stay in coherency isn't in issue, nor have we stated otherwise. It is the fact that Crypteks as ICs do not gain the Special Rules of the units they join, and so do not possess Grand Illusion in and of themselves. Grand Illusion does not state that the unit of the Deceiver to be removed, just the model with the rule. Grand Illusion also states that D3 other units may also be removed, and that could include the unit the Crypteks are in.

The Conclave rule does not state that the Crypteks gain the C'tan Shards special rules. It does not state that if one model (or the C'tan) is redeployed, they all redeploy. Just that they are a single unit and cannot leave each other.

The other alternative is that the Deceiver cannot be removed at all.

Your point:
Grand Illusion does not state that the unit of the Deceiver to be removed, just the model with the rule.

Rule Broken:
Per the Conclave rule, the model cannot leave the Conclave and the conclave must be fielded as a single unit. How exactly are you removing the model without directly breaking this rule?

Your point
Grand Illusion also states that D3 other units may also be removed, and that could include the unit the Crypteks are in.

Rule Broken:
The Crypteks have to be with the C'tan or you are breaking the Conclave rule as already noted. The Crypteks are not in a "other" unit. They are in the unit with the C'tan shard.


Also, you fail to address the problem that the Grand Illusion rule may remove the Deceiver model but it only allows units (and not models) to be re-deployed. A C'tan shard in the Conclave formation cannot be a unit in and of itself while the crypteks exist.


If the C'tan shard is going to redeploy the Crypteks are required to be redeploying right along with it.

Well then, in order to not break any rules, the C'tan Shard will not be able to re-deploy.

 Happyjew wrote:
Well then, in order to not break any rules, the C'tan Shard will not be able to re-deploy.

Incorrect. The Conclave rule requires that the Conclave be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed the crypteks are removed right along with it since the Conclave unit at that point cannot be fielded.

Then the Grand Illusion will be able to function correctly - "each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve."

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Well then, in order to not break any rules, the C'tan Shard will not be able to re-deploy.

Incorrect. The Conclave rule requires that the Conclave be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed the crypteks are removed right along with it since the Conclave unit at that point cannot be fielded.

Then the Grand Illusion will be able to function correctly - "each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve."

Conclave does not grant Grant Illusion to the Crypteks, though. You have to pass the first requirement in order to apply the second. And by your own definition, you cannot complete the first step.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Well then, in order to not break any rules, the C'tan Shard will not be able to re-deploy.

Incorrect. The Conclave rule requires that the Conclave be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed the crypteks are removed right along with it since the Conclave unit at that point cannot be fielded.

Then the Grand Illusion will be able to function correctly - "each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve."

Conclave does not grant Grant Illusion to the Crypteks, though. You have to pass the first requirement in order to apply the second. And by your own definition, you cannot complete the first step.

Grand Illusion does not need to be granted to the Crypteks.

1) Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver.
2) The Crypteks cannot be fielded and are removed from the field.
3) Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver unit (aka the Conclave formation, the single unit that is comprised of 1 Deceiver and 2 Crypteks) to be immediately deployed again or placed in reserve

well what about the rule about units that are no longer coherent? don't they have to spend their movement to get back together or would that not apply in this case for some reason?

Oberron wrote:
well what about the rule about units that are no longer coherent? don't they have to spend their movement to get back together or would that not apply in this case for some reason?

All of this is taking place in deployment, so no movement is allowed.

col_impact wrote:

Oberron wrote:
well what about the rule about units that are no longer coherent? don't they have to spend their movement to get back together or would that not apply in this case for some reason?

All of this is taking place in deployment, so no movement is allowed.

They would take their next movement phase to move back to unit coherency they don't do it right then when a unit loses cohenercy (pg 19 in brb under unit coherency 2nd paragraph)

Oberron wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Oberron wrote:
well what about the rule about units that are no longer coherent? don't they have to spend their movement to get back together or would that not apply in this case for some reason?

All of this is taking place in deployment, so no movement is allowed.

They would take their next movement phase to move back to unit coherency they don't do it right then when a unit loses cohenercy (pg 19 in brb under unit coherency 2nd paragraph)

Units are deployed in coherency. Otherwise they don't make up the unit.

The Conclave rule further restricts this by saying the models cannot leave the unit (e.g move or be positioned out of coherency).