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col_impact wrote:
From Reserves BRB

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve.

My order of operations is correct.
1) Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver.
2) The Conclave cannot be fielded and is placed in Reserve.
3) Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver unit (aka the Conclave formation, the single unit that is comprised of 1 Deceiver and 2 Crypteks) to be immediately deployed again or placed in reserve.

No, you are reversing things again, ignoring requirements,, and not answering the question. Letting the effect guide the cause.

The unit was properly deployed, so does not qualify as impossible to deploy at this point.

Removing the Deceiver is a voluntary action, not presenting a case of cannot deploy a unit.

Removing the Deceiver Model only makes the unit out of coherency. Where does it state that if a unit that loses coherency during deployment is removed?

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
From Reserves BRB

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve.

My order of operations is correct.
1) Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver.
2) The Conclave cannot be fielded and is placed in Reserve.
3) Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver unit (aka the Conclave formation, the single unit that is comprised of 1 Deceiver and 2 Crypteks) to be immediately deployed again or placed in reserve.

No, you are reversing things again, ignoring requirements,, and not answering the question. Letting the effect guide the cause.

The unit was properly deployed, so does not qualify as impossible to deploy at this point.

Removing the Deceiver is a voluntary action, not presenting a case of cannot deploy a unit.

Removing the Deceiver Model only makes the unit out of coherency. Where does it state that if a unit that loses coherency during deployment is removed?

We are not talking about coherency at all here.

Removing the Deceiver model makes it so that he cannot get back on in any way since it is only 'units' that can be redeployed or put in reserves by Grand Illusion, not models.



Everyone seems to be forgetting that critical nugget here, that Grand Illusion won't allow the Deceiver model back into play, since it is not a unit!

When Grand Illusion is activated the Conclave is placed in an undeployable state with one part of the unit deployed and another part undeployed and the Conclave is required to be fielded as a single unit.

It is not until the Reserves rule kicks in to put all of the now impossibly deployed Conclave back into Reserves that the Grand Illusion rule can even target the Deceiver 'unit' and allow the Deceiver unit to be redeployed.

Wrong again.

Deployment is over.

You have deployed your forces and are done. Your opponent has deployed their forces and are done.

Now you are removing a model from the unit via a special rule to redeploy it which is not allowed.

Maybe the word redeploy is what is causing your issue I do not know; but the unit was deployed in normal deployment so the rules you are trying to apply do not effect anything you are trying to claim.

You are wrong, get over it.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Wrong again.

Deployment is over.

You have deployed your forces and are done. Your opponent has deployed their forces and are done.

Now you are removing a model from the unit via a special rule to redeploy it which is not allowed.

Maybe the word redeploy is what is causing your issue I do not know; but the unit was deployed in normal deployment so the rules you are trying to apply do not effect anything you are trying to claim.

You are wrong, get over it.

Incorrect.

We are still in the Deployment Phase and subject to the reserve rule which checks for impossible deployments during the entirety of the Deployment Phase.

Removing the Deceiver model via Grand Illusion puts the Conclave unit in an impossibly deployed state.

The Deceiver (since he is a model and not a unit) is stuck in limbo until the Reserve rule kicks in and puts the Conclave unit in Reserves.

The Grand Illusion rule can then resolve on the Conclave unit.

When do you use grand illusion?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
When do you use grand illusion?

In Deployment

Is that what the rule says?

What does the rule say?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Is that what the rule says?

What does the rule say?

My answer is valid. Check the rule. We are still in Deployment and have not gone on to anything else. The rule happens in Deployment after everything else gets its business done, but we are still in Deployment.

From 'Grand Illusion' in Codex Necrons (emphasis added):

Grand Illusion: Immediately after all forces have deployed and all Scout redeployments have been made...

After, not during.

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Grand Illusion' in Codex Necrons (emphasis added):

Grand Illusion: Immediately after all forces have deployed and all Scout redeployments have been made...

After, not during.

We are sill in Deployment. The rule just stipulates that it does its deployment after everything else finishes their deployment, but we are still in Deployment and have not yet moved on to the next thing.

After is after, not during.

col_impact wrote:
[We are not talking about coherency at all here.

If we are not talking about coherency, than what is the problem?

If I seem to remember, being out of coherency is the reason you claim the unit is no longer properly deployed. Since the unit is no longer properly deployed, you feel you have a right to remove the Crypteks. Where does it state this?

Removing the Deceiver model makes it so that he cannot get back on in any way since it is only 'units' that can be redeployed or put in reserves by Grand Illusion, not models.

Spoiler:

Each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately
deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that critical nugget here, that Grand Illusion won't allow the Deceiver model back into play, since it is not a unit!

How don't see how that accusation flies since I was one of the first ones to mention it.

But that's not the first problem with your interpretation. The first is that you believe the Crypteks are bound by the Rules As Written to be removed from the table when Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver. You are using step 5 to get around Step 2's actions without properly justifying why a properly deployed unit suddenly counts as undeployed or impossible to deploy because one model leaves the table without being a Casualty or going in to Reserves?

When Grand Illusion is activated the Conclave is placed in an undeployable state with one part of the unit deployed and another part undeployed and the Conclave is required to be fielded as a single unit.

A rules reference on a unit being out of coherency after deployment becomes undeployable would be good here

It is not until the Reserves rule kicks in to put all of the now impossibly deployed Conclave back into Reserves that the Grand Illusion rule can even target the Deceiver 'unit' and allow the Deceiver unit to be redeployed.

Except, you haven't properly justified them being put in Reserves in the first place, nor allowing a unit to be in Reserves partially while they are not allowed to on the tabletop, nor allowing the Deceiver to be redeployed without his unit which is in Reserves.

 Ghaz wrote:
After is after, not during.

It does not say this

Grand Illusion: Immediately after Deployment...

We are still in Deployment and are now taking care of additional deployment business after all forces have been deployed and scout moves have been made.

Why are you so resistant to quote the rule as I had asked?

Does it physically pain you to type the words that show you are wrong? Or are you speaking without the rules at all?

Luckily ghaz was kind enough to do it for you: grand illusion is after deployment, the unit was legally deployed when the rules you are referencing were in effect. Now you are trying to remove a model from a unit and call upon rules pertaining to the deployment that has already happened.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
[We are not talking about coherency at all here.

If we are not talking about coherency, than what is the problem?

If I seem to remember, being out of coherency is the reason you claim the unit is no longer properly deployed. Since the unit is no longer properly deployed, you feel you have a right to remove the Crypteks. Where does it state this?

Removing the Deceiver model makes it so that he cannot get back on in any way since it is only 'units' that can be redeployed or put in reserves by Grand Illusion, not models.

Spoiler:

Each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately
deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that critical nugget here, that Grand Illusion won't allow the Deceiver model back into play, since it is not a unit!

How don't see how that accusation flies since I was one of the first ones to mention it.

But that's not the first problem with your interpretation. The first is that you believe the Crypteks are bound by the Rules As Written to be removed from the table when Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver. You are using step 5 to get around Step 2's actions without properly justifying why a properly deployed unit suddenly counts as undeployed or impossible to deploy because one model leaves the table without being a Casualty or going in to Reserves?

When Grand Illusion is activated the Conclave is placed in an undeployable state with one part of the unit deployed and another part undeployed and the Conclave is required to be fielded as a single unit.

A rules reference on a unit being out of coherency after deployment becomes undeployable would be good here

It is not until the Reserves rule kicks in to put all of the now impossibly deployed Conclave back into Reserves that the Grand Illusion rule can even target the Deceiver 'unit' and allow the Deceiver unit to be redeployed.

Except, you haven't properly justified them being put in Reserves in the first place, nor allowing a unit to be in Reserves partially while they are not allowed to on the tabletop, nor allowing the Deceiver to be redeployed without his unit which is in Reserves.

Coherency has nothing to do with it. Coherency has to do with units that are on the field.

We are dealing with a unit that is stuck in a state that is both deployed (on the field) and undeployed (off the field). It is impossible to deploy like that. So the rule kicks in and puts the whole unit into Reserves (Deceiver + 2 Crypteks). Then the Ghost Illusion is able to target the unit (since there is now a whole unit and not just a model to target)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Why are you so resistant to quote the rule as I had asked?

Does it physically pain you to type the words that show you are wrong? Or are you speaking without the rules at all?

Luckily ghaz was kind enough to do it for you: grand illusion is after deployment, the unit was legally deployed when the rules you are referencing were in effect. Now you are trying to remove a model from a unit and call upon rules pertaining to the deployment that has already happened.

We are still in Deployment when Ghost Illusion happens and are now taking care of additional deployment business after all forces have been deployed and scout moves have been made.

How is after deployment still in deployment?

How does removing a model from an already deployed unit make it so that that unit cannot fully deploy when it has already fully deployed?

col_impact wrote:
Coherency has nothing to do with it. Coherency has to do with units that are on the field.

And a deployed unit is not on the field?

We are dealing with a unit that is stuck in a state that is both deployed (on the field) and undeployed (off the field). It is impossible to deploy like that. So the rule kicks in and puts the whole unit into Reserves (Deceiver + 2 Crypteks). Then the Ghost Illusion is able to target the unit (since there is now a whole unit and not just a model to target)

So, what is the rule that says it is impossible to deploy like that?

And the unit has already deployed, it is not in the middle of being deployed.

Not to mention the Deceiver is not put in Reserves when it is removed from the table. If the Deceiver is not on the table, he cannot be removed from the table. If it has not been removed, it cannot be deployed.

End results do not give permission to ignore the first steps.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Why are you so resistant to quote the rule as I had asked?

Does it physically pain you to type the words that show you are wrong? Or are you speaking without the rules at all?

Luckily ghaz was kind enough to do it for you: grand illusion is after deployment, the unit was legally deployed when the rules you are referencing were in effect. Now you are trying to remove a model from a unit and call upon rules pertaining to the deployment that has already happened.

We are still in Deployment when Ghost Illusion happens and are now taking care of additional deployment business after all forces have been deployed and scout moves have been made.

Actually, it never states as such, one way or the other. It just states, "Immediately after all forces have deployed and all Scout redeployments have been made, you may remove..."

It happens right at the same time Deployment normally ends, and there are no player turns to give priority.

If you check the scouts rule it happens after both sides have deployed(including infiltrators) but before first turn.

So scouts itself is after deployment and grand illusion is after that.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
If you check the scouts rule it happens after both sides have deployed(including infiltrators) but before first turn.

So scouts itself is after deployment and grand illusion is after that.

Being after the units are deployed is not necessarily after deployment... The Standard Deployment Method includes rolling Siezing the Initiative. Scouts is not noted as being before or after this. All of this just happens between the last unit is deployed and the game's first turn starts. That's it. 6th Edition was a little more defined than this.

That is not what the rules say; determining first turn is a separate step in the pregame, and seize the initiative is part of that step.

First turn in the long written rules(which comes right after the deployment rules) states: "You and your opponent now need to decide who will have the first turn."

Now, as in at this point.

Seize the initiative is a subsection under this main heading.

First turn also tells you that the mission will tell you how to determine who has the first turn(also written as a sepatate step in the mission after deployment), and then goes on to suggest whoever deployed first has been found by the devs to be the best one to make that determination.

First turn and seize the initiative are also after deployment.

Charistoph wrote:
So, what is the rule that says it is impossible to deploy like that?

When the Deceiver is removed from the table, he is neither in the deployment zone nor in Reserve.

He stays removed from the table since Grand Illusion is only able to re-deploy units or put units in Reserve.

He is not legally deployed and by extension the Conclave is not legally deployed as a unit (since one of the models in the unit is in neither the deployment zone nor in Reserve).

The player is at a point where it is not possible to deploy the Conclave unit (the Deceiver model is stuck in a state which is neither in the deployment zone or in Reserve).

This rule kicks in . . .



That rule places the whole Conclave unit into reserves.

And then Grand Illusion rule comes into effect and the unit with the Deceiver model is now a valid target.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
That is not what the rules say; determining first turn is a separate step in the pregame, and seize the initiative is part of that step.

First turn in the long written rules(which comes right after the deployment rules) states: "You and your opponent now need to decide who will have the first turn."

Now, as in at this point.

Seize the initiative is a subsection under this main heading.

First turn also tells you that the mission will tell you how to determine who has the first turn(also written as a sepatate step in the mission after deployment), and then goes on to suggest whoever deployed first has been found by the devs to be the best one to make that determination.

First turn and seize the initiative are also after deployment.

This discussion of after, during, or whatever is not really worth exploring. The Grand Illusion rules say to use the rules for regular deployment. So even if we are somehow after Deployment (which we aren't), Grand Illusion will at the very least bring us back to a second Deployment step where the same old rules apply just the same.

Yes use the rules for regular deployment after you have deployed the unit and removed the model.

How are you removing the model while following the formation rules?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Yes use the rules for regular deployment after you have deployed the unit and removed the model.

How are you removing the model while following the formation rules?

We are still in Deployment but that is not something worth discussing anymore since it is wholly irrelevant.



I don't think removing the Deceiver from the table necessarily violates the "they cannot leave this unit" clause. For sure "they cannot leave this unit" means the Deceiver can't move out of coherency, which the Crypteks as IC would normally have the power to do. Removing the Deceiver from the table I take to be putting the Deceiver temporarily into an undefined limbo where something happens. What is important I think is that the end result of whatever happens must wind up with the Deceiver not having left the unit (ie still in unit coherency with the rest of the Conclave if the end result is back on the field or in reserves with the rest of the Conclave if the end result is to be in Reserves).

Considering it is the crux of your argument it us clearly worth discussing.

And removing the deceiver from the table keeps it in coherency how exactly?

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
So, what is the rule that says it is impossible to deploy like that?

Spoiler:

models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or
be held back in Reserve

When the Deceiver is removed from the table, he is neither in the deployment zone nor in Reserve.

Okay...

You do realize the question was regarding units, not models, right? That's the part that "allows" you to pull the Crypteks right after removing the Deceiver...

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Considering it is the crux of your argument it us clearly worth discussing.

And removing the deceiver from the table keeps it in coherency how exactly?

This isn't a coherency problem. Removing from the table is not movement and coherency cannot be measured until the Deceiver winds up back on the table and it is measured at specific times (at the end of movement phase, at the end of a unit's deployment).

Like I said, the end result of the process must wind up with the Deceiver in coherency or in reserves with the rest of the Conclave, never having left the unit.

The problem as I have shown is that the Deceiver cannot return to the table because the wording of the Ghost Illusion rules prevents models from returning to the table.

The Deceiver is stuck in a place where he cannot be deployed. He can only be deployed in the deployment zone or placed in reserves and not in the temporary limbo of the Ghost Illusion ability.

So the player winds up in a spot where he cannot possibly deploy the Conclave unit.

And the rules address what to do in that situation - put the whole unit in reserves.

The last bit is absolutely false(well it is all wrong but still); the rules do not tell you that if you cannot deploy a unit for any reason it must go in reserve. The rules tell you that if you cannot deploy a unit because there is not enough room for all the models on the table that it must go in reserve.

The line from the reserves rule you keep quoting is referring to the not enough room rule.

On top of that it was clearly possible to deploy the unit. You have already done it once. Then you are attempting to remove a model from the unit which is breaking the formation rule you quoted above(the model being removed from the unit is absolutely leaving that unit).

If your problem is that the deceiver cannot be redeployed than the answer is that he cannot be removed which, and I am goung to shout this because I am sick of re-typing the same words over and over again, IS NOT REQUIRED FOR GRAND ILLUSION. Removal of the deceiver model is entirely optional, that is what the and/or wording means; you can remove the model and d3 other units, or you can remove the model or d3 other units. Just remove the d3 other units and the rule still works perfectly fine.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The last bit is absolutely false(well it is all wrong but still); the rules do not tell you that if you cannot deploy a unit for any reason it must go in reserve. The rules tell you that if you cannot deploy a unit because there is not enough room for all the models on the table that it must go in reserve.

The line from the reserves rule you keep quoting is referring to the not enough room rule.

On top of that it was clearly possible to deploy the unit. You have already done it once. Then you are attempting to remove a model from the unit which is breaking the formation rule you quoted above(the model being removed from the unit is absolutely leaving that unit).

If your problem is that the deceiver cannot be redeployed than the answer is that he cannot be removed which, and I am goung to shout this because I am sick of re-typing the same words over and over again, IS NOT REQUIRED FOR GRAND ILLUSION. Removal of the deceiver model is entirely optional, that is what the and/or wording means; you can remove the model and d3 other units, or you can remove the model or d3 other units. Just remove the d3 other units and the rule still works perfectly fine.

This rule is not related to the 'not enough room' rule. It's in the Reserves section under Preparing Reserves . . .



. . . so this rule will trigger just fine in the current situation being discussed.

A model being removed from the table for the resolution of an effect is not leaving the unit. As fully documented in my prior post it only matters where it ends up at the end of movement or at the end of deployment when coherency is checked.
If you feel otherwise, feel free to show with rules, as I have, as to when and how the check for leaving a unit is performed.

Also, a player can make a choice that winds up leading to a unit that can't be deployed and no way forward except to pull the unit into reserves. Just because a player has other options he can choose the option that puts the unit into an undeployable state and forces this rule to trigger. . .

col_impact wrote:
This rule is not related to the 'not enough room' rule. It's in the Reserves section under Preparing Reserves . . .

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for
any reason, it must be placed in Reserve.

. . . so this rule will trigger just fine in the current situation being discussed.

A model being removed from the table for the resolution of an effect is not leaving the unit. As fully documented in my prior post it only matters where it ends up at the end of movement or at the end of deployment when coherency is checked.
If you feel otherwise, feel free to show with rules, as I have, as to when and how the check for leaving a unit is performed.

Also, a player can make a choice that winds up leading to a unit that can't be deployed and no way forward except to pull the unit into reserves. Just because a player has other options he can choose the option that puts the unit into an undeployable state and forces this rule to trigger. . .

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for
any reason, it must be placed in Reserve.

So, your order of operations is STILL wrong, no rules to justify removing a unit because a model is removed after being deployed (they have to be deployING to be diverted to Reserves), and your inability to demonstrate proper order compounds this.

This would be closest to accurate.
1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver from the tabletop from its unit (legal according to Basic vs Advanced, but leads to this barrel of worms), along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver attempts to be redeployed, but lacks the rest of its unit to be redeployed since they are still deployed.
4) Final unit deployment then fails and all three models are rejoined as a unit in Reserves.

So, the Crypteks are not removed until the Deceiver attempts to redeploy, not when the Deceiver is removed. The unit as a whole is put in Reserves, but cannot be deployed again until their Reserves Roll comes up, not immediately, or before the Sieze Initiative attempt is presented as an option.

So according to you, I can deploy all 3 of my basilisks(1 unit) with 1 on 1 corner of the table, 1 in the middle, and 1 in the far corner using long edge deploymen(for a total of roughly 32.5" between each model in the unit) because coherency is only during movement?

furthermore via scout redeployment, my scout sentinels could attempt to redeploy with one of them attempting to redeploy within impassable terrain then the whole unit goes into reserve because that model cannot redeploy there?