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 NightHowler wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
OR you cannot fully deploy the unit since you cannot deploy the Deceiver and they all go in to Reserves, because it is impossible to deploy the unit (again).

This is the part I find no rules to support.

You have deployed your unit successfully on the table.

Then, after deployment, AND after scout redeployment, you use a special rule to move one model out of coherency from the conclave unit. Nothing I see says "if you use a special rule to move out of coherency, you may place that unit in reserves", and much less do I see any rules saying you can then use that same special rule to put that unit on the board somewhere else.

Actually, Grand Illusion does say that you can pull the model out of coherency, indirectly at least. And I cannot find a rule that states a unit must be deployed in coherency and must stay in coherency during deployment. So, Grand Illusion violates nothing to do this portion of its job.

 NightHowler wrote:
This is a permissive rule set, and while the Grand Illusion gives you permission to remove the shard from the table, it does not give you permission to move him out of coherency from his unit. So the most logical interpretation of this rules conflict is that he may not be removed from the table because it would move him out of coherency.

If it was just movement, then yes, you would be correct. but then unit coherency is only checked for movement. And Grand Illusion specifically states that you may remove the model from the table. True, it doesn't say you can remove it out of coherency, but to be fair, that really isn't a rule in deployment, either.

 NightHowler wrote:
If you want to use the Grand Illusion to take the shard off the table, you will only have permission to do so (without breaking any other rules) if you pick his unit as one of the d3 units.

Except they have to be OTHER units, which only adds to the problem, and they don't technically have to be removed together. At least, so far as I can find in the current ruleset.

 NightHowler wrote:
If you decide to break unit coherency rules and just take the shard off the table, then the crypteks are out of coherency and may not perform any action except to get back into coherency as soon as they can, and the shard no longer has permission to return from reserves because we are never given permission for parts of a unit to come on from reserves, so the unit is effectively destroyed until you find a way to get the crypteks into reserves as well, and then the whole unit can come back on the table together. However, no rule yet presented gives the crypteks permission to take a "free ride" into reserves - they were successfully deployed and breaking coherency does not "undeploy" them, it just breaks coherency.

Actually, in order to use the rule Col_Impact keeps referencing, and the line you are using, the UNIT just needs to be undeployable to put the whole thing in Reserves, not just any of the models. And a part of the unit just became undeployable since it lacks permission to be deployed except as a unit and left in a "pre-deployed" position.

It sucks, but it is a very wacky situation that the writer(s) of Grand Illusion did not even think to check before they sent it out for final release.

Charistoph wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
OR you cannot fully deploy the unit since you cannot deploy the Deceiver and they all go in to Reserves, because it is impossible to deploy the unit (again).

This is the part I find no rules to support.

You have deployed your unit successfully on the table.

Then, after deployment, AND after scout redeployment, you use a special rule to move one model out of coherency from the conclave unit. Nothing I see says "if you use a special rule to move out of coherency, you may place that unit in reserves", and much less do I see any rules saying you can then use that same special rule to put that unit on the board somewhere else.

Actually, Grand Illusion does say that you can pull the model out of coherency, indirectly at least. And I cannot find a rule that states a unit must be deployed in coherency and must stay in coherency during deployment. So, Grand Illusion violates nothing to do this portion of its job.

 NightHowler wrote:
This is a permissive rule set, and while the Grand Illusion gives you permission to remove the shard from the table, it does not give you permission to move him out of coherency from his unit. So the most logical interpretation of this rules conflict is that he may not be removed from the table because it would move him out of coherency.

If it was just movement, then yes, you would be correct. but then unit coherency is only checked for movement. And Grand Illusion specifically states that you may remove the model from the table. True, it doesn't say you can remove it out of coherency, but to be fair, that really isn't a rule in deployment, either.

 NightHowler wrote:
If you want to use the Grand Illusion to take the shard off the table, you will only have permission to do so (without breaking any other rules) if you pick his unit as one of the d3 units.

Except they have to be OTHER units, which only adds to the problem, and they don't technically have to be removed together. At least, so far as I can find in the current ruleset.

 NightHowler wrote:
If you decide to break unit coherency rules and just take the shard off the table, then the crypteks are out of coherency and may not perform any action except to get back into coherency as soon as they can, and the shard no longer has permission to return from reserves because we are never given permission for parts of a unit to come on from reserves, so the unit is effectively destroyed until you find a way to get the crypteks into reserves as well, and then the whole unit can come back on the table together. However, no rule yet presented gives the crypteks permission to take a "free ride" into reserves - they were successfully deployed and breaking coherency does not "undeploy" them, it just breaks coherency.

Actually, in order to use the rule Col_Impact keeps referencing, and the line you are using, the UNIT just needs to be undeployable to put the whole thing in Reserves, not just any of the models. And a part of the unit just became undeployable since it lacks permission to be deployed except as a unit and left in a "pre-deployed" position.

It sucks, but it is a very wacky situation that the writer(s) of Grand Illusion did not even think to check before they sent it out for final release.

Why would they check for this situation? The Deceiver is a MC so cannot be joined by ICs. The Deceiver is not an IC so cannot join units. The formation in question requires a C'tan Shard (not C'tan Shard of the Deceiver/NIghtbringer) and as such is currently unusable without a houserule. SInce the entire situation has to be house-ruled to begin with, however the special rule is going to work must also be a houserule.

With the deciever in the conclave, then removed; there is nothing to put him back onto the table. He is not a unit and his unit is already deployed. Units are what get deployed.

I said this from the beginning and a few times after but not in the last 3 pages so: The Deceiver is normally a unit of 1 model that can never be joined, his rules work fine when not in a conclave as his model gets removed from the table and then that unit of 1 Deceiver gets redeployed. When he is part of the conclave the model gets removed and then have no permission for redeployment. His unit has already been deployed legally and therefore remain in the deployed state. You have removed a model from the unit that cannot return so it is effectively lost.

 Happyjew wrote:
Why would they check for this situation? The Deceiver is a MC so cannot be joined by ICs. The Deceiver is not an IC so cannot join units. The formation in question requires a C'tan Shard (not C'tan Shard of the Deceiver/NIghtbringer) and as such is currently unusable without a houserule. SInce the entire situation has to be house-ruled to begin with, however the special rule is going to work must also be a houserule.

Because they released a book less than 3 months before which did the thing we are talking about and also had access to Grand Illusion (albeit a different version) is why they should have checked on it. The unit name in question is the "C'tan Shard of the Deceiver", and could easily be construed justified as being a "C'tan Shard".

But yeah, this one is going to be a little House Ruled to work, no matter which Shard you choose to put in. And all but col_impact seems to think so. I know Kommissar Kel and I both posted a HIWPI on the first page. Only col_impact seems to think this will work as Written without trying to translate Intention.

Thinking about it I think one can use Grand illusion to redeploy the entire conclave of the burning one because conclave of the burning one would count as an other friendly unit would it not? So when using the grand illusion one would have to count the conclave as part of the D3 units.