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You're arguing

1) remove deceiver
2) conclave is illegaly deployed, so it is placed into reserves
3) redeploy

The problem here is with step 1.

How it should work in game is

1) Try to remove deceiver This fails as in order to do it, you must break the conclave rule
2) conclave is legally deployed and stays where it is.

When you are specifically trying to argue that because you have illegally deployed you get a do-over, you need to look at your deployment. you are not allowed to deploy illegally, It's illegal.

There is no way to say, because I have broken this rule , I am allowed to do this. You acknowledge that you have broken a rule, when you say that the crypteks are illegally deployed and must be removed.

The only way to deploy illegally , is to do something illegal, hence why you can't do it.

Basically, you must change your actions to prevent something illegal, not rectify it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

This would be closest to accurate.
1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver from the tabletop from its unit (legal according to Basic vs Advanced, but leads to this barrel of worms), along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver attempts to be redeployed, but lacks the rest of its unit to be redeployed since they are still deployed.
4) Final unit deployment then fails and all three models are rejoined as a unit in Reserves.

Basic Vs advanced doesn't work. It's Codex Vs Campaign supplement.

You may remove the deceiver, you may not leave the conclave. They have equal authority, but denying over rules permission.

Eg. (BRB vs BRB) Armor 2+ ,You may Ignore the wound on a 2+. Vs AP2 You may not ignore the wound with a 2+ armor save.

Same authority , but one denies your premission.

harkequin wrote:

This would be closest to accurate.
1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver from the tabletop from its unit (legal according to Basic vs Advanced, but leads to this barrel of worms), along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver attempts to be redeployed, but lacks the rest of its unit to be redeployed since they are still deployed.
4) Final unit deployment then fails and all three models are rejoined as a unit in Reserves.

Basic Vs advanced doesn't work. It's Codex Vs Campaign supplement.

Of course it does work, because it is removing a model from the unit's coherency on the table. Any issues specifically in this regard are rulebook rules which apply this basic standard. Or at least, they should be, since the Conclave rule does not state anything regarding the unit being deployed in coherency or similar. Since these concepts are not generated by the Conclave rule and alluded to at most, they MUST be in the rulebook.

harkequin wrote:
You may remove the deceiver, you may not leave the conclave. They have equal authority, but denying over rules permission.

Removing the model from the table is not removing it from the Conclave-generated unit, though. It is just removing it from being coherency with the unit in question and placing the model in an undeployed state without the rest of his unit.

Edit: Consider this: What if Grand Illusion was possessed by a Dire Avengers Exarch, and replace any reference of "Deceiver" with "Exarch".

They are already established in a unit, with no fancy rules forcing them to be in a unit. Indeed, all Conclave does is remove the restriction for Independent Characters to join a unit with a Monstrous Creature and the ability for Independent Characters to leave the unit they have joined. So, it is at this point that Basic Vs Advanced comes in to play to allow the Deceiver model to be removed from the unit's coherency on the tabletop (but not organizationally).

You go to remove the Exarch from redeployment. What rule at this exact point would justify the removal of the Dire Avenger models of the unit? What rule would prevent the removal of the Exarch?

Does that make what I keep asking col_impact for, clearer?

This would be closest to accurate.
1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver from the tabletop from its unit (legal according to Basic vs Advanced, but leads to this barrel of worms), along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver is a model and not a unit and not a valid target for Grand Illusion and is stuck off table. Conclave unit is stuck in a state of "impossible to deploy."
4) BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.
5) Deceiver is a model in a unit and now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

col_impact wrote:

5) Deceiver is a model in a unit and now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

Incorrect. The Deceiver unit at this point had not been removed from the table using Grand Illusion, nor placed in a position of awaiting Deployment designation that Grand Illusion provides. It has been placed in Reserves using the Preparing Reserves rule, hence, its deployment is over.

1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver model from the tabletop, along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver is a model and not a unit and not a valid target for Grand Illusion and is stuck off table. Conclave unit is stuck in a state of "impossible to deploy."
4) BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.
5) Deceiver is a model in a unit that had been removed from the table using Grand Illusion and is now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

col_impact wrote:


1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver model from the tabletop, along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver is a model and not a unit and not a valid target for Grand Illusion and is stuck off table. Conclave unit is stuck in a state of "impossible to deploy."
4) BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.
5) Deceiver is a model in a unit that had been removed from the table using Grand Illusion and is now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

So the unit goes into reserves? Then where do you get permission to redeploy them? It's either redeploy or put them in Reserves. If they are in Reserves you do not have permission to redeploy.

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:


1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver model from the tabletop, along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver is a model and not a unit and not a valid target for Grand Illusion and is stuck off table. Conclave unit is stuck in a state of "impossible to deploy."
4) BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.
5) Deceiver is a model in a unit that had been removed from the table using Grand Illusion and is now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

So the unit goes into reserves? Then where do you get permission to redeploy them? It's either redeploy or put them in Reserves. If they are in Reserves you do not have permission to redeploy.

Grand Illusion provides the permission.

It provides permission to redeploy or place in reserves. Not both.

 Happyjew wrote:
It provides permission to redeploy or place in reserves. Not both.

Grand Illusion is not the rule that places the Conclave unit in Reserves. Grand Illusion provides the Conclave unit the permission to redeploy or place in reserves.

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
It provides permission to redeploy or place in reserves. Not both.

Grand Illusion is not the rule that places the Conclave unit in Reserves. Grand Illusion provides the Conclave unit the permission to redeploy or place in reserves.

It grants that permission to any unit it removes from the table to redeploy. Grand Illusion only removed the Deceiver Model, not the unit. The Reserves rule is what removes the rest of the unit from the table.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
It provides permission to redeploy or place in reserves. Not both.

Grand Illusion is not the rule that places the Conclave unit in Reserves. Grand Illusion provides the Conclave unit the permission to redeploy or place in reserves.

It grants that permission to any unit it removes from the table to redeploy. Grand Illusion only removed the Deceiver Model, not the unit. The Reserves rule is what removes the rest of the unit from the table.

You are not incorrect. The strictest RAW interpretation would only allow Grand Illusion to pull the Conclave unit back into Reserves and not allow the redeployment of the Conclave. A strict read of "in this manner" would read "in this exact manner". So strict RAW means that Grand Illusion loses the ability to redeploy the Conclave. However, it retains the ability to pull the unit back into Reserves as I have detailed (which maintains some functionality).

However, a looser RAW interpretation would allow Grand Illusion to redeploy the Conclave since Grand Illusion was ultimately responsible for removing the whole unit off the table. A looser read of "in this manner" would read "in a manner using Grand Illusion" which my outlined steps allow.

I am comfortable with the looser RAW interpretation since I think RAI the Grand Illusion ability is supposed to be fully functional. The precise reason the Grand Illusion rule is not fully compatible with the Conclave formation is an inconsistent referencing of the Deceiver.



The first part of the rule refers to "the model" and the second part refers to each "unit" and implies to me that "this model" in the context of Grand Illusion is interchangeable with "C'tan shard unit" (and indeed is shorthand for it) since they are interchangeable in the context of a solitary MC.

In other words, the looser RAW allows in my opinion a way to line up RAW, RAI, and most people's sense of HYWPI.

col_impact wrote:
However, a looser RAW interpretation would allow Grand Illusion to redeploy the Conclave since Grand Illusion was ultimately responsible for removing the whole unit off the table. A looser read of "in this manner" would read "in a manner using Grand Illusion" which my outlined steps allow.

I am comfortable with the looser RAW interpretation since I think RAI the Grand Illusion ability is supposed to be fully functional. The precise reason the Grand Illusion rule is not fully compatible with the Conclave formation is an inconsistent referencing of the Deceiver.

Spoiler:

Grand Illusion: Immediately after all forces have deployed and all Scout redeployments
have been made, you may remove this model and/or up to D3 other friendly units within 12" of it from the table. Each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve.

The first part of the rule refers to "the model" and the second part refers to each "unit" and implies to me that "this model" in the context of Grand Illusion is interchangeable with "C'tan shard unit" (and indeed is shorthand for it) since they are interchangeable in the context of a solitary MC.

Sorry, still no. Grand Illusion does not allow for a model placed in Reserves to be redeployed. Only the units that it has pulled from the table. The Deceiver Conclave unit is not in a position of "pulled from the table", and its deployment determination has been decided, and Grand Illusion does not allow that to be overridden.

col_impact wrote:
In other words, the looser RAW allows in my opinion a way to line up RAW, RAI, and most people's sense of HYWPI.

If it's RAW, it is RAW, no need for HYWPI. Nice try going for a looser translation by using the cause of the cause is the real cause, but you are still skipping steps in order to get things to work. And skipping steps is never RAW.

OK I think I got this figured out.

1. Crypteks and C'tan Shard are deployed (I'm assuming a house rule to allow "C'tan Shard" = "C'tan Shard of the Deceiver").
2. Deceiver uses Grand Illusion and is removed from the table, forcing the formation into reserves (as per the previously mentioned rule).
3. Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver to re-deploy, but since it does not allow the Crypteks, the Deceiver is forced back into Reserves due to the aforementioned rule.

 Happyjew wrote:
OK I think I got this figured out.

1. Crypteks and C'tan Shard are deployed (I'm assuming a house rule to allow "C'tan Shard" = "C'tan Shard of the Deceiver").
2. Deceiver uses Grand Illusion and is removed from the table, forcing the formation into reserves (as per the previously mentioned rule).
3. Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver to re-deploy, but since it does not allow the Crypteks, the Deceiver is forced back into Reserves due to the aforementioned rule.

#2 and #3 is in error because the rule that Col_impact references only applies when you deploy the unit. The unit in question is already deployed, then becomes partially undeployed. The inability to deploy only happens when you try to deploy the Deceiver model back on the board. At this point, the Crypteks are removed from the table and the Deceiver is removed from "undeployed" and places both firmly in Reserves.

Their deployment state is now set. Grand Illusion has already removed the Deceiver and attempted to Deploy the Deceiver's unit. Grand Illusion provides no instruction nor permission to remove a unit from Reserves between the time it moves to deploy and the unit is actually deployed on the board.

Either way the formation is still in Reserves.

Actually, at no point are the crypteks removed from the table. There is never a rule that tells us that they are removed. The rule for the Grand Illusion tells us that the necron player can use this ability "immediately after all forces have deployed" and additionally, after scout redeployment. Deployment is finished. The rule that colon-impact says he can use to remove the rest of his crypteks is on page 135 under Reserves, and happens "When deploying their armies...", but by the time you are able to use the Grand Illusion, deployment is over.

So, if you use the Grand Illusion to remove the C'tan Shard from the table without the rest of his unit, the crypteks just sit there on the table and the C'tan Shard is moved out of unit coherency.

If the C'tan shard is placed elsewhere on the table, then the Shard and the crypteks must spend the next turn trying as hard as they can to get back into coherency.

If the shard is put in reserves, then he is removed from play as a casualty unless the crypteks eventually are also placed in reserves by some other ability because the rules never give a single model from a unit permission to come on from reserves - only units as a whole (permissive ruleset and all that). Normally the shard would be a unit, but because it is now part of the conclave of the burning one, it is no longer a unit of one, but rather a member of the conclave.

So no. Necron players do not get to use this loop-hole to their advantage, but rather they must either make the conclave one of the d3 units removed, or watch the shard sit in reserves the whole game.

 NightHowler wrote:
Actually, at no point are the crypteks removed from the table. There is never a rule that tells us that they are removed. The rule for the Grand Illusion tells us that the necron player can use this ability "immediately after all forces have deployed" and additionally, after scout redeployment. Deployment is finished. The rule that colon-impact says he can use to remove the rest of his crypteks is on page 135 under Reserves, and happens "When deploying their armies...", but by the time you are able to use the Grand Illusion, deployment is over.

So, if you use the Grand Illusion to remove the C'tan Shard from the table without the rest of his unit, the crypteks just sit there on the table and the C'tan Shard is moved out of unit coherency.

If the C'tan shard is placed elsewhere on the table, then the Shard and the crypteks must spend the next turn trying as hard as they can to get back into coherency.

If the shard is put in reserves, then he is removed from play as a casualty unless the crypteks eventually are also placed in reserves by some other ability because the rules never give a single model from a unit permission to come on from reserves - only units as a whole (permissive ruleset and all that). Normally the shard would be a unit, but because it is now part of the conclave of the burning one, it is no longer a unit of one, but rather a member of the conclave.

So no. Necron players do not get to use this loop-hole to their advantage, but rather they must either make the conclave one of the d3 units removed, or watch the shard sit in reserves the whole game.

Incorrect. Grand Illusion allows a redeploy using the normal Deployment rules



So the condition 'when deploying their armies' in this rule



. . . is fully met while the unit is redeploying via Grand Illusion since Grand Illusion uses 'the normal Deployment rules' and the units affected by Grand Illusion are allowed to revisit their deployment.

So the steps I outlined above are correct.

1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver model from the tabletop, along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver is a model and not a unit and not a valid target for Grand Illusion and is stuck off table. Conclave unit is stuck in a state of "impossible to deploy."
4) BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.
5) Deceiver is a model in a unit that had been removed from the table using Grand Illusion and is now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

Step 5 varies as noted in previous posts whether you go for a strict RAW or a looser RAW interpretation of 'each unit that is removed in this manner'

At third paragraph you start losing rules function.

If you remove the C'tan model alone he has no ability to redeploy at all as he is not a unit on his own per the conclave rule.

You cannot redeploy him, therefore he does not come back and all rules break(while illusion allows units to be placed in reserve and all other normal deployment rules to take effect, the C'tan is 1 model out of a unit that is already deployed)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
At third paragraph you start losing rules function.

If you remove the C'tan model alone he has no ability to redeploy at all as he is not a unit on his own per the conclave rule.

You cannot redeploy him, therefore he does not come back and all rules break(while illusion allows units to be placed in reserve and all other normal deployment rules to take effect, the C'tan is 1 model out of a unit that is already deployed)

Incorrect. As already stated this rule kicks in because the Conclave is not fully deployed

But it is not impossible to deploy the unit. Part of the unit is deployed, so the remainder (the C'tan) must re-deploy in coherency with the Crypteks.

col_impact wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
Actually, at no point are the crypteks removed from the table. There is never a rule that tells us that they are removed. The rule for the Grand Illusion tells us that the necron player can use this ability "immediately after all forces have deployed" and additionally, after scout redeployment. Deployment is finished. The rule that colon-impact says he can use to remove the rest of his crypteks is on page 135 under Reserves, and happens "When deploying their armies...", but by the time you are able to use the Grand Illusion, deployment is over.

So, if you use the Grand Illusion to remove the C'tan Shard from the table without the rest of his unit, the crypteks just sit there on the table and the C'tan Shard is moved out of unit coherency.

If the C'tan shard is placed elsewhere on the table, then the Shard and the crypteks must spend the next turn trying as hard as they can to get back into coherency.

If the shard is put in reserves, then he is removed from play as a casualty unless the crypteks eventually are also placed in reserves by some other ability because the rules never give a single model from a unit permission to come on from reserves - only units as a whole (permissive ruleset and all that). Normally the shard would be a unit, but because it is now part of the conclave of the burning one, it is no longer a unit of one, but rather a member of the conclave.

So no. Necron players do not get to use this loop-hole to their advantage, but rather they must either make the conclave one of the d3 units removed, or watch the shard sit in reserves the whole game.

Incorrect. Grand Illusion allows a redeploy using the normal Deployment rules FOR EACH UNIT REMOVED BY THE GRAND ILLUSION

Spoiler:

Each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately
deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve.

So the condition 'when deploying their armies' in this rule

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for
any reason, it must be placed in Reserve

. . . is fully met while the unit is redeploying via Grand Illusion since Grand Illusion uses 'the normal Deployment rules' and the units affected by Grand Illusion are allowed to revisit their deployment.

So the steps I outlined above are correct.

1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver model from the tabletop, along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver is a model and not a unit and not a valid target for Grand Illusion and is stuck off table. Conclave unit is stuck in a state of "impossible to deploy."
4) BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.
5) Deceiver is a model in a unit that had been removed from the table using Grand Illusion and is now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

Step 5 varies as noted in previous posts whether you go for a strict RAW or a looser RAW interpretation of 'each unit that is removed in this manner'

I fixed your statement for you there. And since the conclave unit was not removed using the Grand Illusion (only the shard is removed by that rule), the crypteks have no permission to go into reserves.

What happens if you remove the shard is the unit goes out of coherency. The shard cannot be redeployed because it is only part of a unit, so it goes into reserves, and since we have no permission for parts of units to come on from reserves the shard stays in reserves. The crypteks cannot do anything but try to get back into unit coherency, but since the missing model is off the table, they are unable to perform any actions at all.

Instead, what must happen if you take the conclave formation is that the conclave must be one of the d3 units or the events described above take place.

Sorry, that's just RAW.

 NightHowler wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
Actually, at no point are the crypteks removed from the table. There is never a rule that tells us that they are removed. The rule for the Grand Illusion tells us that the necron player can use this ability "immediately after all forces have deployed" and additionally, after scout redeployment. Deployment is finished. The rule that colon-impact says he can use to remove the rest of his crypteks is on page 135 under Reserves, and happens "When deploying their armies...", but by the time you are able to use the Grand Illusion, deployment is over.

So, if you use the Grand Illusion to remove the C'tan Shard from the table without the rest of his unit, the crypteks just sit there on the table and the C'tan Shard is moved out of unit coherency.

If the C'tan shard is placed elsewhere on the table, then the Shard and the crypteks must spend the next turn trying as hard as they can to get back into coherency.

If the shard is put in reserves, then he is removed from play as a casualty unless the crypteks eventually are also placed in reserves by some other ability because the rules never give a single model from a unit permission to come on from reserves - only units as a whole (permissive ruleset and all that). Normally the shard would be a unit, but because it is now part of the conclave of the burning one, it is no longer a unit of one, but rather a member of the conclave.

So no. Necron players do not get to use this loop-hole to their advantage, but rather they must either make the conclave one of the d3 units removed, or watch the shard sit in reserves the whole game.

Incorrect. Grand Illusion allows a redeploy using the normal Deployment rules FOR EACH UNIT REMOVED BY THE GRAND ILLUSION

Spoiler:

Each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately
deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve.

So the condition 'when deploying their armies' in this rule

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for
any reason, it must be placed in Reserve

. . . is fully met while the unit is redeploying via Grand Illusion since Grand Illusion uses 'the normal Deployment rules' and the units affected by Grand Illusion are allowed to revisit their deployment.

So the steps I outlined above are correct.

1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver model from the tabletop, along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver is a model and not a unit and not a valid target for Grand Illusion and is stuck off table. Conclave unit is stuck in a state of "impossible to deploy."
4) BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.
5) Deceiver is a model in a unit that had been removed from the table using Grand Illusion and is now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

Step 5 varies as noted in previous posts whether you go for a strict RAW or a looser RAW interpretation of 'each unit that is removed in this manner'

I fixed your statement for you there. And since the conclave unit was not removed using the Grand Illusion (only the shard is removed by that rule), the crypteks have no permission to go into reserves.

What happens if you remove the shard is the unit goes out of coherency. The shard cannot be redeployed because it is only part of a unit, so it goes into reserves, and since we have no permission for parts of units to come on from reserves the shard stays in reserves. The crypteks cannot do anything but try to get back into unit coherency, but since the missing model is off the table, they are unable to perform any actions at all.

Instead, what must happen if you take the conclave formation is that the conclave must be one of the d3 units or the events described above take place.

Sorry, that's just RAW.

Incorrect. Coherency has nothing to with. You cannot measure coherency between models on and off the table. Here is a refresher on coherency since you seem to have forgotten what the rules say . . .



When the Deceiver is removed the Conclave unit goes into a state of "impossible to deploy".

This rule kicks in . . .



Also the Grand Illusion rules do allow you to only use it on D3 other friendly units so you cannot spend the D3 on the Conclave unit without directly going against RAW.

Please show how the unit is impossible to deploy.

 Happyjew wrote:
Please show how the unit is impossible to deploy.

For the Conclave unit to be deployed all 3 models must be on the table.

When Grand Illusion goes off and the Deceiver is removed from the table he gets stuck there and cannot return to the table. The Conclave unit is in a state of 'impossible to deploy' at that point.

The BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.

col_impact wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
Actually, at no point are the crypteks removed from the table. There is never a rule that tells us that they are removed. The rule for the Grand Illusion tells us that the necron player can use this ability "immediately after all forces have deployed" and additionally, after scout redeployment. Deployment is finished. The rule that colon-impact says he can use to remove the rest of his crypteks is on page 135 under Reserves, and happens "When deploying their armies...", but by the time you are able to use the Grand Illusion, deployment is over.

So, if you use the Grand Illusion to remove the C'tan Shard from the table without the rest of his unit, the crypteks just sit there on the table and the C'tan Shard is moved out of unit coherency.

If the C'tan shard is placed elsewhere on the table, then the Shard and the crypteks must spend the next turn trying as hard as they can to get back into coherency.

If the shard is put in reserves, then he is removed from play as a casualty unless the crypteks eventually are also placed in reserves by some other ability because the rules never give a single model from a unit permission to come on from reserves - only units as a whole (permissive ruleset and all that). Normally the shard would be a unit, but because it is now part of the conclave of the burning one, it is no longer a unit of one, but rather a member of the conclave.

So no. Necron players do not get to use this loop-hole to their advantage, but rather they must either make the conclave one of the d3 units removed, or watch the shard sit in reserves the whole game.

Incorrect. Grand Illusion allows a redeploy using the normal Deployment rules FOR EACH UNIT REMOVED BY THE GRAND ILLUSION

Spoiler:

Each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately
deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve.

So the condition 'when deploying their armies' in this rule

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for
any reason, it must be placed in Reserve

. . . is fully met while the unit is redeploying via Grand Illusion since Grand Illusion uses 'the normal Deployment rules' and the units affected by Grand Illusion are allowed to revisit their deployment.

So the steps I outlined above are correct.

1) Scout Redeployment ends.
2) Grand Illusion is used to remove the Deceiver model from the tabletop, along with D3 other units.
3) Deceiver is a model and not a unit and not a valid target for Grand Illusion and is stuck off table. Conclave unit is stuck in a state of "impossible to deploy."
4) BRB rule kicks in to rectify the situation and pulls the entire unit into Reserves.
5) Deceiver is a model in a unit that had been removed from the table using Grand Illusion and is now a valid target for Grand Illusion. Conclave is redeployed per Grand Illusion or placed in Reserves.

Step 5 varies as noted in previous posts whether you go for a strict RAW or a looser RAW interpretation of 'each unit that is removed in this manner'

I fixed your statement for you there. And since the conclave unit was not removed using the Grand Illusion (only the shard is removed by that rule), the crypteks have no permission to go into reserves.

What happens if you remove the shard is the unit goes out of coherency. The shard cannot be redeployed because it is only part of a unit, so it goes into reserves, and since we have no permission for parts of units to come on from reserves the shard stays in reserves. The crypteks cannot do anything but try to get back into unit coherency, but since the missing model is off the table, they are unable to perform any actions at all.

Instead, what must happen if you take the conclave formation is that the conclave must be one of the d3 units or the events described above take place.

Sorry, that's just RAW.

Incorrect.

You keep on using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

col_impact wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
At third paragraph you start losing rules function.

If you remove the C'tan model alone he has no ability to redeploy at all as he is not a unit on his own per the conclave rule.

You cannot redeploy him, therefore he does not come back and all rules break(while illusion allows units to be placed in reserve and all other normal deployment rules to take effect, the C'tan is 1 model out of a unit that is already deployed)

Incorrect. As already stated this rule kicks in because the Conclave is not fully deployed

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for
any reason, it must be placed in Reserve

Incorrect again.

The unit had already been fully deployed, now you have removed a model from the unit with no ability to redeploy that model(its unit is already deployed); this does not magically remove the unit, nor effect the unit in anyway.

The closest to rules you can get is that the deceiver is just gone.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
At third paragraph you start losing rules function.

If you remove the C'tan model alone he has no ability to redeploy at all as he is not a unit on his own per the conclave rule.

You cannot redeploy him, therefore he does not come back and all rules break(while illusion allows units to be placed in reserve and all other normal deployment rules to take effect, the C'tan is 1 model out of a unit that is already deployed)

Incorrect. As already stated this rule kicks in because the Conclave is not fully deployed

Spoiler:

if it impossible to deploy a unit for
any reason, it must be placed in Reserve

Incorrect again.

The unit had already been fully deployed, now you have removed a model from the unit with no ability to redeploy that model(its unit is already deployed); this does not magically remove the unit, nor effect the unit in anyway.

The closest to rules you can get is that the deceiver is just gone.

In this case, part of the unit has been undeployed, and the full unit is undeployed. He cannot deploy the full unit in this new manner now, so that is what triggers the Reserves entry rule.

Of course, that is assuming that when one starts deploying a unit that is already on the table to finish deploying it, that one cannot begin again and the unit as a whole is undeployable.

Still, I'm wondering where the rule is that when a unit is deployed during deployment, it must be deployed in its entirety. I know the different Reserves rules cover it, but I cannot seem to find it for just regular deployment.

Undeployed isn't even a word.

The model gets removed from the table after the unit was fully and properly deployed; does taking a casualty from a unit throw that unit into reserves mid-game?

No, it does not.

There are 2 parts to the rule: remove the model(with/or d3 other units), then deploy units. When the deceiver is not in a conclave that model is also a unit on its own si this verbiage works fine; you can remove the model then deploy that single-model unit. When he is with the conclave you could remove the model, but then you cannot deploy it in any fashion because it is not a unit and you are not allowed to remove the rest of the unit(uless we are counting the rest of the unit as an other unit) so either RAW you cannot remove the model as that would be akin to leaving the unit, or RAW once you remove the model it is simply gone(it has no allowance to be deployed anywhere), while the rest of the unit remains in place as if they had taken a casualty in game(they have already legally deployed)

There are no shenanigans of retroactively making the legal deployment no longer legal, the time for that has passed.

As to your last paragraph: the rules there are under the standard deployment rules, subheading: not enough room.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Undeployed isn't even a word.

Sure it is. Google it. It's just not literally used in this case.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The model gets removed from the table after the unit was fully and properly deployed; does taking a casualty from a unit throw that unit into reserves mid-game?

No, it does not.

There is a large difference between what Grand Illusion does, being removed as a casualty, and even going in to Ongoing Reserves. Grand Illusion is actually closer to what Gate of Infinity and the Veil of Darkness does. It removed the models in question from the board and redeploys them according to the rest of the rules.

This time between removal and deploying is never actually defined with a name or a status, except removed from the table. Indeed, the status is closer to being in deployment than in Reserves or as a casualty.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
There are 2 parts to the rule: remove the model(with/or d3 other units), then deploy units. When the deceiver is not in a conclave that model is also a unit on its own si this verbiage works fine; you can remove the model then deploy that single-model unit. When he is with the conclave you could remove the model, but then you cannot deploy it in any fashion because it is not a unit and you are not allowed to remove the rest of the unit(uless we are counting the rest of the unit as an other unit) so either RAW you cannot remove the model as that would be akin to leaving the unit, or RAW once you remove the model it is simply gone(it has no allowance to be deployed anywhere), while the rest of the unit remains in place as if they had taken a casualty in game(they have already legally deployed)

OR you cannot fully deploy the unit since you cannot deploy the Deceiver and they all go in to Reserves, because it is impossible to deploy the unit (again).

OR you can consider placing the Deceiver on the board as finishing the Deploying of the Deceiver (Conclave) unit, just like if you used two hands to put out the Crypteks, and then went back an picked up the Deceiver model to deploy it.

It's a very weird and confusing mish-mash of rules never meant to work together.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
As to your last paragraph: the rules there are under the standard deployment rules, subheading: not enough room.

No, it does not. That only addresses the inability to do so according to room. Not Enough Room is when it is physically impossible to put them on the field (and yes, I know a local guy who does that with IG, in Apocalypse, across 3 tables, lengthwise). Nothing in there when this is done by choice, or if reversed by choice. Nothing on deploying in deployment in unit coherency, either (though, this part is rather stupid since you'd spend at least one turn trying to get back in to Coherency unless you go second and the out of coherency models get removed).


The biggest problem here is Grand Illusion (not to mention the rules general) never foresaw the need to consider the C'tan Shard of the Deceiver unit as being part of the Conclave. Or that we would Sandbox it out. If this was a computer program, it would probably balk and crash as soon as you selected the Deceiver to redeploy. However, we are more intelligent than a computer and go beyond the programming, thank goodness.

Charistoph wrote:
OR you cannot fully deploy the unit since you cannot deploy the Deceiver and they all go in to Reserves, because it is impossible to deploy the unit (again).

This is the part I find no rules to support.

You have deployed your unit successfully on the table.

Then, after deployment, AND after scout redeployment, you use a special rule to move one model out of coherency from the conclave unit. Nothing I see says "if you use a special rule to move out of coherency, you may place that unit in reserves", and much less do I see any rules saying you can then use that same special rule to put that unit on the board somewhere else.

This is a permissive rule set, and while the Grand Illusion gives you permission to remove the shard from the table, it does not give you permission to move him out of coherency from his unit. So the most logical interpretation of this rules conflict is that he may not be removed from the table because it would move him out of coherency.

If you want to use the Grand Illusion to take the shard off the table, you will only have permission to do so (without breaking any other rules) if you pick his unit as one of the d3 units.

If you decide to break unit coherency rules and just take the shard off the table, then the crypteks are out of coherency and may not perform any action except to get back into coherency as soon as they can, and the shard no longer has permission to return from reserves because we are never given permission for parts of a unit to come on from reserves, so the unit is effectively destroyed until you find a way to get the crypteks into reserves as well, and then the whole unit can come back on the table together. However, no rule yet presented gives the crypteks permission to take a "free ride" into reserves - they were successfully deployed and breaking coherency does not "undeploy" them, it just breaks coherency.