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col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Well then, in order to not break any rules, the C'tan Shard will not be able to re-deploy.

Incorrect. The Conclave rule requires that the Conclave be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed the crypteks are removed right along with it since the Conclave unit at that point cannot be fielded.

Then the Grand Illusion will be able to function correctly - "each unit that is removed in this manner can either be immediately deployed again using the normal Deployment rules, or placed in Reserve."

Conclave does not grant Grant Illusion to the Crypteks, though. You have to pass the first requirement in order to apply the second. And by your own definition, you cannot complete the first step.

Grand Illusion does not need to be granted to the Crypteks.

1) Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver.
2) The Crypteks cannot be fielded and are removed from the field.
3) Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver unit (aka the Conclave formation, the single unit that is comprised of 1 Deceiver and 2 Crypteks) to be immediately deployed again or placed in reserve

You have your orders of operations wrong.

1) Grand Illusion attempts to remove the Deceiver model.
2) Conclave and Coherency rules require that the Deceiver be deployed with the Crypteks, and cannot leave them.
3) Crypteks cannot be removed as they do not have Grand Illusion in order to be "this model", and they cannot qualify as an "other unit".
4) Since the Deceiver cannot be removed from the Crypteks, and the Crypteks cannot be removed, the Deceiver must stay in place.

In order for Grand Illusion to work, it must be able to remove the unit the Deceiver unit, which contains the joined Cryptek models. But Grand Illusions doesn't remove the Deceiver UNIT, it removes the Deceiver model.

Having permission to redeploy the removed units only comes AFTER they are removed, not as a permission to remove the unit the Deceiver is in after the fact.

It would be the same as removing models after successful To-Hit Rolls instead of at least waiting for successful To-Wound rolls.

You keep forgetting that we are doing all of this in deployment. If a single unit cannot be fully deployed then it cannot be deployed at all. Even further the Conclave reinforces this as it requires all the models to be fielded as a single unit.

There is no movement going on so no leaving is actually going on. Deployment is not movement. What happens actually is the single unit is placed into a state that is both deployed and not deployed. The Grand Illusion power can remove the Deceiver model but in doing so it forces the crypteks to be removed off the field since you cannot have a single unit that is deployed and not deployed.

My order of operations is correct.

1) Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver.
2) The Crypteks cannot be fielded and are removed from the field.
3) Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver unit (aka the Conclave formation, the single unit that is comprised of 1 Deceiver and 2 Crypteks) to be immediately deployed again or placed in reserve

col_impact wrote:
You keep forgetting that we are doing all of this in deployment. If a single unit cannot be fully deployed then it cannot be deployed at all. Even further the Conclave reinforces this as it requires all the models to be fielded as a single unit.

I have NOT forgotten that this is in deployment. You do not have general permission to redeploy models after Infiltrators or Scouts during deployment unless you have the rule to allow it. Grand Illusions IS such a rule, but the part that allows the redeploy requires that the Deceiver model and other friendly units that are going to be redeployed are removed FIRST. It is this first step you keep ignoring, and it is this first step that is the problem, NOT the second part.

col_impact wrote:
There is no movement going on so no leaving is actually going on. Deployment is not movement. What happens actually is the single unit is placed into a state that is both deployed and not deployed. The Grand Illusion power can remove the Deceiver model but in doing so it forces the crypteks to be removed off the field since you cannot have a single unit that is deployed and not deployed.

Who said anything about movement? I did not. The rules have not. The model and chosen units must be removed from the table first. Effectively, they are "undeployed", so they can be deployed again just as if it was their first time. This case of being "deployed and not deployed" is never stated.

col_impact wrote:
My order of operations is correct.
1) Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver.
2) The Crypteks cannot be fielded and are removed from the field.
3) Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver unit (aka the Conclave formation, the single unit that is comprised of 1 Deceiver and 2 Crypteks) to be immediately deployed again or placed in reserve

No, it is incorrect.

Your Step 2 is implying that they are waiting to be deployed. When in actuality, all three models have been deployed as a unit. There is no rule that covers what happens if a model in a unit is undeployed, at all, and neither the Conclave rule nor Grand Illusion address this.

Indeed, there is no rule that a unit must be deployed in Coherency. Deployment never mentions it. The closest we get in this situation is Unit Coherency in Movement, which states:
"During the course of a game, a unit can get broken up and lose unit coherency, usually because it has taken casualties from incoming enemy fire. If this happens, in their next Movement phase, the models in the unit must be moved in such a way that they restore unit coherency (or get as close as possible to having restored coherency). If the unit cannot move in its next turn, or is unable to restore unit coherency in a single turn, then the models must move to restore unit coherency as soon as they have the opportunity, including by Running if they have that option."

Now, here is where Grand Illusion gets really scary, it only allows the units who have been removed to be deployed again. With the Deceiver model removed, only a third of the unit is undeployed, not all of it. So, the Deceiver, being a model not on the table and out of coherency with his unit still deployed, cannot be deployed again. He is not in Reserves, because the UNIT must be declared in Reserves (and Grand Illusion allows the UNITS to do this).

Note, this is only applying the Rules As Written. And it is obvious that the Writers of the new Grand Illusion never saw it interacting with Conclave. The previous version would not be a problem, as it only addressed D3 Friendly units, and required nothing of the C'tan.

And as I said earlier, if the player wasn't being a jerk, I'd be fine with the entire Conclave unit being removed in this manner, as HIWPI. Heck, just even allowing the Deceiver in to the Conclave is a House Rule!

It seems like this falls into a 'blackhole' type of event because the rule likes to try to interchange model and unit which is just fine if the unit is a single model but is no longer the case. Grand illusion does say it is a "may remove" on the C'tan shard "and/or" (what a horrid short hand in rules THAT statement is) wouldn't the safest way to make sure no rules are broken is to use the ability is to not re-deploy the shard but only other units?

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You keep forgetting that we are doing all of this in deployment. If a single unit cannot be fully deployed then it cannot be deployed at all. Even further the Conclave reinforces this as it requires all the models to be fielded as a single unit.

I have NOT forgotten that this is in deployment. You do not have general permission to redeploy models after Infiltrators or Scouts during deployment unless you have the rule to allow it. Grand Illusions IS such a rule, but the part that allows the redeploy requires that the Deceiver model and other friendly units that are going to be redeployed are removed FIRST. It is this first step you keep ignoring, and it is this first step that is the problem, NOT the second part.

col_impact wrote:
There is no movement going on so no leaving is actually going on. Deployment is not movement. What happens actually is the single unit is placed into a state that is both deployed and not deployed. The Grand Illusion power can remove the Deceiver model but in doing so it forces the crypteks to be removed off the field since you cannot have a single unit that is deployed and not deployed.

Who said anything about movement? I did not. The rules have not. The model and chosen units must be removed from the table first. Effectively, they are "undeployed", so they can be deployed again just as if it was their first time. This case of being "deployed and not deployed" is never stated.

col_impact wrote:
My order of operations is correct.
1) Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver.
2) The Crypteks cannot be fielded and are removed from the field.
3) Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver unit (aka the Conclave formation, the single unit that is comprised of 1 Deceiver and 2 Crypteks) to be immediately deployed again or placed in reserve

No, it is incorrect.

Your Step 2 is implying that they are waiting to be deployed. When in actuality, all three models have been deployed as a unit. There is no rule that covers what happens if a model in a unit is undeployed, at all, and neither the Conclave rule nor Grand Illusion address this.

Indeed, there is no rule that a unit must be deployed in Coherency. Deployment never mentions it. The closest we get in this situation is Unit Coherency in Movement, which states:
"During the course of a game, a unit can get broken up and lose unit coherency, usually because it has taken casualties from incoming enemy fire. If this happens, in their next Movement phase, the models in the unit must be moved in such a way that they restore unit coherency (or get as close as possible to having restored coherency). If the unit cannot move in its next turn, or is unable to restore unit coherency in a single turn, then the models must move to restore unit coherency as soon as they have the opportunity, including by Running if they have that option."

Now, here is where Grand Illusion gets really scary, it only allows the units who have been removed to be deployed again. With the Deceiver model removed, only a third of the unit is undeployed, not all of it. So, the Deceiver, being a model not on the table and out of coherency with his unit still deployed, cannot be deployed again. He is not in Reserves, because the UNIT must be declared in Reserves (and Grand Illusion allows the UNITS to do this).

Note, this is only applying the Rules As Written. And it is obvious that the Writers of the new Grand Illusion never saw it interacting with Conclave. The previous version would not be a problem, as it only addressed D3 Friendly units, and required nothing of the C'tan.

And as I said earlier, if the player wasn't being a jerk, I'd be fine with the entire Conclave unit being removed in this manner, as HIWPI. Heck, just even allowing the Deceiver in to the Conclave is a House Rule!

Incorrect. Deployment is an all or nothing stage. Either the unit is legally deployed or not. The Conclave winds up never being deployed if something interferes with it being successfully legally deployed. The Grand Illusion ability puts the unit in an impossible state of being partially deployed and that mandates that the entire unit be undeployed as well. Luckily, Grand Illusion targets the unit so it will effectively redeploy the unit on resolution of the ability.

Grand illusion only targets the unit if the unit is counted as 1 of the other units.

If you do not count the unit as such then the unit as a whole is never removed for redeployment, only the model(which cannot legally be done)

So we are left with the 2 options:
Remove and redeploy the whole unit counting it as one of the other units.
Or
The unit cannot redeploy via grand illusion as it is the same unit that the model is a part of and we have no permission to remove that unit(only the C'tan model).

Both have some RAW validity as while the model is a part of that unit he is not the whole of that unit thus the unit could be an other unit to the model.

col_impact wrote:
Incorrect. Deployment is an all or nothing stage. Either the unit is legally deployed or not.

Rules quote for this please?

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave winds up never being deployed if something interferes with it being successfully legally deployed. The Grand Illusion ability puts the unit in an impossible state of being partially deployed and that mandates that the entire unit be undeployed as well. Luckily, Grand Illusion targets the unit so it will effectively redeploy the unit on resolution of the ability.

It only puts it in that position if the Deceiver model is removed. It is not required to remove the model in the first place, it is only required if you plan on redeploying it. Grand Illusion does not say "remove this unit", it states, "remove this model", as in the model with this rule.

Again, you are putting desired effects as justification for ignoring the first steps. Should I just remove your models since I'm going to shoot at them and not bothering to Roll? Or should I just go straight to the To-Wound rolls and ignore the To-Hit rolls? This is equivalent to what you are saying we should do.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Incorrect. Deployment is an all or nothing stage. Either the unit is legally deployed or not.

Rules quote for this please?

Are you suggesting I can deploy half of a single unit on the field and half off the field? Can I also bubblewrap a unit during deployment around my vehicles and have the bubblewrapping models be 4-5" apart? Do you allow either of these?

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave winds up never being deployed if something interferes with it being successfully legally deployed. The Grand Illusion ability puts the unit in an impossible state of being partially deployed and that mandates that the entire unit be undeployed as well. Luckily, Grand Illusion targets the unit so it will effectively redeploy the unit on resolution of the ability.

It only puts it in that position if the Deceiver model is removed. It is not required to remove the model in the first place, it is only required if you plan on redeploying it. Grand Illusion does not say "remove this unit", it states, "remove this model", as in the model with this rule.

Again, you are putting desired effects as justification for ignoring the first steps. Should I just remove your models since I'm going to shoot at them and not bothering to Roll? Or should I just go straight to the To-Wound rolls and ignore the To-Hit rolls? This is equivalent to what you are saying we should do.

If the Conclave rule states that the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit and the C'tan is removed from the field, then the Conclave cannot be fielded and is removed from the field. Simple and straightforward rule application.

Incorrect; you have no permission to remove the rest of the conclave along with that model(unless you apply the unit as one of the other units) and are told they cannot be separated therefore the rest of the conclave cannot be removed.

Simple application of the rules.

col_impact wrote:
If the Conclave rule states that the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit and the C'tan is removed from the field, then the Conclave cannot be fielded and is removed from the field. Simple and straightforward rule application.

And the rule quote that a unit must deployed in coherency is?

Keep in mind, the main problem isn't that the Deceiver is being removed, it is that the Crypteks are not part of "the model" in regards to the Deceiver Model, nor possess Grand Illusion in order for "this model" to apply to them.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Incorrect; you have no permission to remove the rest of the conclave along with that model(unless you apply the unit as one of the other units) and are told they cannot be separated therefore the rest of the conclave cannot be removed.

Simple application of the rules.

You are told the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan is removed, the Conclave cannot be fielded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If the Conclave rule states that the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit and the C'tan is removed from the field, then the Conclave cannot be fielded and is removed from the field. Simple and straightforward rule application.

And the rule quote that a unit must deployed in coherency is?

Keep in mind, the main problem isn't that the Deceiver is being removed, it is that the Crypteks are not part of "the model" in regards to the Deceiver Model, nor possess Grand Illusion in order for "this model" to apply to them.

Are you suggesting I can deploy half of a single unit on the field and half off the field? Can I also bubblewrap a unit during deployment around my vehicles and have the bubblewrapping models be 4-5" apart? Do you allow either of these?

Which means the C'tan cannot be removed.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Which means the C'tan cannot be removed.

No we are still in the deployment phase. When the C'tan is removed from the field, the Conclave cannot be fielded and is removed along with the C'tan.

No, you have already deployed your unit.

You are now attempting to remove a single model from an already deployed unit and claim that now the already deployed unit has to be removed because that is not a legal deployment completely ignoring the fact that you cannot split up that unit.

It would be helpful if you actually knew the rule you are trying to argue.

Grand illusion happens after all deployment and scout redeployment.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No, you have already deployed your unit.

You are now attempting to remove a single model from an already deployed unit and claim that now the already deployed unit has to be removed because that is not a legal deployment completely ignoring the fact that you cannot split up that unit.

It would be helpful if you actually knew the rule you are trying to argue.

Grand illusion happens after all deployment and scout redeployment.

Grand Illusion grants a 'do over' of deployment, not a second deployment. When the C'tan is removed from the field to redo its deployment, the Conclave must be removed as well since it can no longer be fielded and we are still in deployment.

col_impact wrote:
Grand Illusion grants a 'do over' of deployment, not a second deployment. When the C'tan is removed from the field to redo its deployment, the Conclave must be removed as well since it can no longer be fielded and we are still in deployment.

No... The unit's original deployment has already been established. The removal happens after regular deployment, Infiltrator deployment and Scout redeployment. Can you provide the general permission from the rulebook to redeploy anything at this point?

Can you provide where it states that removing a model from a unit during deployment causes the whole unit to be removed automatically along with it?

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Grand Illusion grants a 'do over' of deployment, not a second deployment. When the C'tan is removed from the field to redo its deployment, the Conclave must be removed as well since it can no longer be fielded and we are still in deployment.

No... The unit's original deployment has already been established. The removal happens after regular deployment, Infiltrator deployment and Scout redeployment. Can you provide the general permission from the rulebook to redeploy anything at this point?

Can you provide where it states that removing a model from a unit during deployment causes the whole unit to be removed automatically along with it?

The Conclave rule specifies that the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed during deployment, the remainder Conclave is no longer legally fielded and must be removed from the field.

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave rule specifies that the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed during deployment, the remainder Conclave is no longer legally fielded and must be removed from the field.

And you still haven't found the rule that requires the rest of the unit to be removed because it cannot be legally fielded, yet?

Grand Illusion grants no such thing, it grant a redeployent just like scouts, excepting in this case you have much greater range for the redeployment and the option to instead be placed in reserve.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave rule specifies that the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed during deployment, the remainder Conclave is no longer legally fielded and must be removed from the field.

And you still haven't found the rule that requires the rest of the unit to be removed because it cannot be legally fielded, yet?

The Conclave rule. If the Conclave is illegally fielded, can it remain on the field? No.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave rule specifies that the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed during deployment, the remainder Conclave is no longer legally fielded and must be removed from the field.

And you still haven't found the rule that requires the rest of the unit to be removed because it cannot be legally fielded, yet?

The Conclave rule. If the Conclave is illegally fielded, can it remain on the field? No.

The Conclave rules does not state this requirement at all. Yes, it requires them all to be fielded as one unit. But the Conclave rule doesn't say that if the whole unit cannot be deployed, or if you remove one model in deployment, you remove the whole unit.

Since the Conclave rule doesn't state this, you must have the rule from the rulebook. So, where is it?

You are attempting to break the conclave rule by removing 1 model, then trying to justify that with a claim that since you broke the rule then the rest of the unit gets to redeploy as well. That is not how that works.

Once your forces are deployed they are deployed, you cannot go changing the deployment for units after this point(say while infiltrators are being deployed, or scouts are redeploying, or while Grand Illusion is then redeploying) without specific allowance.

The conclave does not have allowance unless you take it as one of the other units(and again, the shard model is optional not required to redeploy for the other units; or at all really). Without the allowance the unit has to stay and the model must stay with the unit per the conclave rules. The only workaround is to use one of the other units(which again are optional) allowances.

Trying to claim the unit gets dragged along is the exact same as claiming a SM Captain on a bike can turboboost out his full distance from an infantry unit he is attached to and then the rest of the unit gets dragged along with him(yes turboboost is model-by-model, and the unit must stay in coherency) since the unit must stay in coherency and he cannot leave the unit in the shooting phase.

As soon as you take the C'tan in this formation, Grand Illusion is effectively no longer usable. It's really only usable when the C'tan is by itself.

Grand Illusion grants permission to remove the C'tan (this model) from the board and up to D3 OTHER units (i.e., units that are NOT the unit the C'tan is part of). At no point does Grand Illusion grant permission to remove the rest of the C'tan's unit from the board.

I imagine it like this... Pants on Fire Fred is a C'tan Shard of the Deceiver. Fred is wily. Normally, when you run into him on the battlefield, he might sort of flicker a little and reappear somewhere else before the fight gets started. Today, however, Fred is being guided by two Crypteks, Wedge and Biggs. Now, Wedge and Biggs have done their homework. They know Fred is wily. They know he likes to flicker. They also know that Overlord Bob is going to be super pissed if they lose Fred. Hence, Wedge and Biggs have some cool tech that prevents Fred from flickering. So long as they're around - and they're definitely around at the start of the battle - Fred can't do his flicker trick. Wedge and Biggs have effectively locked him down to where he started.

Not and, and/or.

Grand illusion is absolutely still useable; it is just whether or not the model can bring his unit with him as one of the other units.

I say yes he can bring them as an other unit because of the vaguery in formations that force-combine units, especially with separate battlefield roles.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Not and, and/or.

Grand illusion is absolutely still useable; it is just whether or not the model can bring his unit with him as one of the other units.

I say yes he can bring them as an other unit because of the vaguery in formations that force-combine units, especially with separate battlefield roles.

Grand Illusion grants no permission to remove the Crypteks from the board after deployment. It only grants permission to remove the C'tan. If the C'tan and the Crypteks must remain together, the only possible outcome is that the C'tan can't use Grand Illusion.

Imagine that Bob and John are standing together in a line. I tell Bob that he has permission to skip to the front of the line. I also tell Bob that he must stay with John. I do not tell John that he can skip to the front of the line. Is Bob able to skip to the front of the line? Nope. He has permission to do so, but in doing so he would have to leave John and that's not allowed. John has no permission to skip to the front of the line, so Bob and John must stay where they are. Same exact situation with the C'tan. C'tan has permission to redeploy. C'tan must remain with Crypteks. Crypteks don't have permission to redeploy. Ergo, C'tan never experiences a situation where he can redeploy.

 Kriswall wrote:
Grand Illusion grants no permission to remove the Crypteks from the board after deployment. It only grants permission to remove the C'tan. If the C'tan and the Crypteks must remain together, the only possible outcome is that the C'tan can't use Grand Illusion.

It should be stated when that the Deceiver cannot use it on himself without breaking Cohesion. The other D3 units should still be available.

But you can move the Deciever fine?

So for example, I deploy my two Crypteks out in front, but see that I've left myself open to being melta'd in the face, so I re-deploy the Deciever to provide enough bubblewrap or at least to take the melta shots, while still maintaining coherency?

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Conclave rule specifies that the Conclave must be fielded as a single unit. When the C'tan shard is removed during deployment, the remainder Conclave is no longer legally fielded and must be removed from the field.

And you still haven't found the rule that requires the rest of the unit to be removed because it cannot be legally fielded, yet?

The Conclave rule. If the Conclave is illegally fielded, can it remain on the field? No.

The Conclave rules does not state this requirement at all. Yes, it requires them all to be fielded as one unit. But the Conclave rule doesn't say that if the whole unit cannot be deployed, or if you remove one model in deployment, you remove the whole unit.

Since the Conclave rule doesn't state this, you must have the rule from the rulebook. So, where is it?

From Reserves BRB



My order of operations is correct.
1) Grand Illusion removes the Deceiver.
2) The Conclave cannot be fielded and is placed in Reserve.
3) Grand Illusion allows the Deceiver unit (aka the Conclave formation, the single unit that is comprised of 1 Deceiver and 2 Crypteks) to be immediately deployed again or placed in reserve


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Trying to claim the unit gets dragged along is the exact same as claiming a SM Captain on a bike can turboboost out his full distance from an infantry unit he is attached to and then the rest of the unit gets dragged along with him(yes turboboost is model-by-model, and the unit must stay in coherency) since the unit must stay in coherency and he cannot leave the unit in the shooting phase.

That example isn't comparable at all. A somewhat comparable situation occurs in the context of a squadron of flyers that have a special rule where they must be fielded as a single unit and cannot leave the unit. In that situation when one of the flyers in the squadron leaves the battlefield to go into ongoing reserves then all of them would go along with that flyer into ongoing reserves.

That example is the exact same situation; your unit is already deployed, you are trying to remove a model from deploy as a by-model special rule(same as turbo-boost), you are then claiming that the single model that you have removed allows you to remove the rest of the unit as this would place them out of coherency(same as moving the rest of the unit into coherency with the turbo-boosting bike).

You were able to deploy the conclave so the reserve rules there do not take effect; removing 1 model from the unit does not mean you are now unable to deploy the unit: you already did that.

You are not applying the rules you are scrambling for a justification for why you "must be right". You are wrong; accept it, it happens.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
That example is the exact same situation; your unit is already deployed, you are trying to remove a model from deploy as a by-model special rule(same as turbo-boost), you are then claiming that the single model that you have removed allows you to remove the rest of the unit as this would place them out of coherency(same as moving the rest of the unit into coherency with the turbo-boosting bike).

You were able to deploy the conclave so the reserve rules there do not take effect; removing 1 model from the unit does not mean you are now unable to deploy the unit: you already did that.

You are not applying the rules you are scrambling for a justification for why you "must be right". You are wrong; accept it, it happens.

Wrong. You are comparing movement to deployment. Coherency has nothing to do with it. Whether or not the unit can be fielded or not is what is at stake here. Find an example involving deployment and then we can maybe compare. You are just making a straw man argument. Another comparable example would be in a squadron of deep strikers with a similar rule requiring them to be fielded as a single, unleavable unit. The first 2 deep strike in fine, but the last one mishaps and goes into reserves. Even though the first 2 were deployed, the rules to field them as a single unit forces them all into reserves.

The Conclave is still in the deployment phase and a model in its unit is removed putting the Conclave into an undeployable state. The span of the rule that kicks in to put the Conclave in Reserves is broad in scope, as it covers the whole deployment phase and 'any reason'.