The launch time is Tuesday going into Wednesday at Midnight PT.
Shockwork Studio is happy to announce a new Kickstarter Launch Date Wednesday March 16th for BlackRain: Alpha Strain. After lots of great feed back from the community we made some rulebook revisions and a total overhaul of the Kickstarter itself. Making it much simpler and something people are accustomed to Lots and Lots of free models!
If we reach our Stretch Goals our supporters will get access to 1 copy of every model made for NAU and UNAS including Mechanized Infantry units as well as all conversion kits.
Kickstarter Preview! UNAS didn't have a Mecha, right? Well, it has. It's one of the first concept arts for the whole game.
Light Mechanized Infantry for UNAS faction. Exactly like Ulysses it will come in 3 different variants, with different weaponry and role on the battlefield. For now, take a look at a packed image of almost all the parts for this kit.
Hope you like it and see you soon on KS!
Alpha tests! Yup. We would like to invite you to participate in our closed alpha test of BlackRain AlphaStrain. If you are interested in playing the game before anyone else and sharing your thoughts with us, send us a message!
All you need to do is send us a priv message here or send us an email at: shockworkstudio@gmail.com with your email adress, so we could send you a rulebook, some unit profiles, everything you need to play BlackRain AlphaStrain
Ulysses Sidewinder test CAST. Resin, multi part, 70 mm, on Kickstarter really really soon.
We here at Shockwork Studio are proud to announce a launch date for our Kickstarter BlackRain: Alpha Strain
This is an incredibly exciting moment for Shockwork as it is years of Blood, Sweat and Tears for us.
From the beginning we set out to create a game that we would buy ourselves. A game that every aspect we would be proud to show. Something new that the public hasn't seen before at least not like this. I think we've achieved that and it's time to show it.
We a still working out the final details stay posted here for more news very soon
I'm very excited to show all of you Forward Commander Kali with her Godhand Rig in all it's glory for Shockwork Studios flagship game BlackRain: Alpha Strain.
As usual we love input from you the fans and thank you for your support
Hello! We just got back after Christmas with a full preview of our Ulysses! Last time we showed only main parts of the Mech, but this kit is way bigger. It has enough parts to build one of three Ulysses variants: Sidewinder, Bushmaster or Diamondback.
The Bushmaster can punch holes in the wall with its Dual Tiamat Flak Cannons for other troops to advance through, creating new tactical possibilities. Their manipulator arm allows it to operate terminals, open doors, or just punch someone in the face with the enormous strength of a mech.
The Diamondback offers a variety of guided missiles in its Brimstone M.L. 330. If that isn’t enough to crush the enemy, it can always send a Tactical Nuke!
The Sidewinder is the most balanced of the three variants, offering good offence in both short and long ranges. The LGC .50 “lawnmower” cuts infantry down like…well, a lawnmower, while the 20mm AMR “Black Arrow” can snipe irritating targets from afar.
As you can see all of the three types offer something different for your army. But enough talking about it, watch the video and enjoy the renders.
New preview video of S.O.C. Cazador Gutierrez
Again we welcome feedback.
We're always interested in input from our possible future fans.
Updating the top post with more pics and info on Zadruga
First up is a concept of a Deadwinter soldier and his trusty Bukavak
With chameleon weave camo and reliable weaponry a Deadwinter soldier can hold his own.
Bukavaks are monsterous pets of the Zadruga. In numbers these things are capable of taking down Mechanized Infantry.
Zadruga Weapons From the top down
Rainmaker: This is a portable howitzer system with programmable shells. Capable of raining death down on the enemy or punching a hole in a wall only to explode after breach.
Core Impaler: a nasty weapon capable of embedding spikes into its target. Until removed the spikes will continue to effect the target with things such as EMP and Radiation
KA-Marowit 12mm: A 12mm cylinder fed rifle capable of knocking man-sized targets off their feet and lying on your back is not a good place to be when greeted by a Bukavak
Triglav AR: This is the standard issue rifle of Zadruga able to carry armor piercing, flechette or stun rounds. An incredibly versatile weapon
Coda 6 pistol: pistol version of the Core Impaler nasty little handgun.
And on his ankle
Skinning Knives: a little bit more than a standard issue combat knife with its double wound capability
And A couple of nice shots of my personal favorite head
Halloween is upon us once again and we here at Shockwork Studio would like to give everyone a little surprise.
The most horrifying faction in BlackRain: Zadruga.
Haunting the forests that fill the land from Serbia to Belarus from Poland to Russia.
Skeletons, Ancient Ciphers, Gruesome Trophies that cover the tree line stand as warnings to all outsider's.
"Entering this Dark Forest is a prayer for Death."
Shockwork Studio proudly presents
Zadruga
"Skulls, horns, trophies. It’s all just a show, a masquerade… To plant a seed of fear in your miiinds. Don't get intimidated! These are men! They bleed like men, they can be killed like men! They are the ones who fear Us! Lying in wait in their forests. They Fear us! They Hide! and we need to rid ourselves of these peasant boogie men and their mind games once and for all can claim what was once ours."
Lt. Col Koen's speech 5 Mins before Operation Cluj, to the 2nd Battalion, 563 Man strong. All disappeared without a trace after 10 mins inside of what was Chuj Napoca. The single largest loss of EuroLance lives to date.
See: Lost Sons Incident
Please visit our blogspot to read more on Zadruga
Parental Advisory
Adult language
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Shockwork Studio In conjunction with MaxMini EU will soon be bringing you the Ulysses Mech and Special Operations Commander: Cazador Gutierrez
We are trying to get a little bit of steam for the Kickstarter before we announce an official launch date for BlackRain: Alpha Strain
We have many more models on the horizon but for now a sneak peak. Both models have prototypes and are splendid.
We look forward to feedback from you.
Please Visit our Blog and our Patreon
http://blackrainthegame.blogspot.com/ https://www.patreon.com/BlackRain
Update 10/27
SOC Gutierrez parts
[i]SOC Gutierrez head up close
Glad to see you guys are still going at it. I'm also glad to see that you plan on putting out a few releases before doing a kickstarter. Smart move. What's the planned release date for these?
You have no idea how happy that makes me. What you guys don't see as of yet is the amount of time put into the BlackRain universe. We have so much more to show you.
Did I mention Ulysses is multi-part and has optional parts, weapons, heads, reconfigured front end and even stowage?
Barzam wrote: Glad to see you guys are still going at it. I'm also glad to see that you plan on putting out a few releases before doing a kickstarter. Smart move. What's the planned release date for these?
Very soon. We are putting the final touches on the renders before they go into production. I don't want to announce a date and then miss it but once it goes into production you fine folks at Dakka will be the first to know.
Spread the word guys. We're a small group looking to make a few big waves in 2016. We'll take all the help we can get.
You have no idea how happy that makes me. What you guys don't see as of yet is the amount of time put into the BlackRain universe. We have so much more to show you.
Did I mention Ulysses is multi-part and has optional parts, weapons, heads, reconfigured front end and even stowage?
Barzam wrote: Glad to see you guys are still going at it. I'm also glad to see that you plan on putting out a few releases before doing a kickstarter. Smart move. What's the planned release date for these?
Very soon. We are putting the final touches on the renders before they go into production. I don't want to announce a date and then miss it but once it goes into production you fine folks at Dakka will be the first to know.
Spread the word guys. We're a small group looking to make a few big waves in 2016. We'll take all the help we can get.
Excellent! I like the fluff but there are some spelling errors. Good work though!
Excellent! I like the fluff but there are some spelling errors. Good work though!
I noticed those last night.
I'll be fixing them this weekend. Sometimes we all wear so many hats things slip through, death warrants have been issued.
hopefully we'll dropping some more stuff on this post soon. Stay tuned
Love it. Is this the overall look we can expect for the NAU's troops? Gutierrez at least has a definite Post Apocalyptic survivor look to him that I love.
Yes, NAU have some of that post-apo, Vietnam war feel. Usually heavy armor covered with damaged cloth, lots of ammo packs and other stuff hanging on them.
We use word "survivors" to descibe them. That should give a hint.
We'll be uploading more and more stuff soon, so keep an eye on that.
Not crazy about the walker. The torso feels too short and the legs feel like they are out of scale with what is in the concept art. The concept art captures something neat.. that.. we have seen a few times now from Defiance, White Dragon, and that guy that tried to kickstart some battlesuits a few months back.
The trooper is pretty cool. I hope there's a way to get that helmet as a bit, as I could imagine doing a few swaps on some Mantic Enforcers.
Vermis wrote: It all looks very pretty, but are there any prints or casts? Render distrust is hard to shake, especially with some of the kickstarters round here.
I sort of agree with MLaw about the mech, but my confusion is how a pilot fits in there. Or is it explained...?
We have prototypes. Each model is given to the fine folks at Maxmini for checks. I doubt we'll have casting issue and with 2 "house" 3D artist fixes happen pretty fast.
I'm curious as to a more in depth critique on the Ulysses.
MLaw Not crazy about the walker. The torso feels too short and the legs feel like they are out of scale with what is in the concept art. The concept art captures something neat.. that.. we have seen a few times now from Defiance, White Dragon, and that guy that tried to kickstart some battlesuits a few months back.
It may be caused by the render, soon I'll upload more shots, from different angles.
Vermis It all looks very pretty, but are there any prints or casts? Render distrust is hard to shake, especially with some of the kickstarters round here.
I sort of agree with MLaw about the mech, but my confusion is how a pilot fits in there. Or is it explained...?
Below are images of the very first print. Just keep in mind that it is NOT the quality we'll be using. Very very soon we'll have better photos, of the actual cast! We really can't wait for that moment.
And that mech doesn't have a pilot inside. It's a remote with some simple AI inside.
Promised photos:
Ulysses with some first layers of paint on him
Group photo with some other minis (that white trooper is our Zhendu model!)
And one top down view.
Nothing crazy, something for you to know that we are not at the level of 3d models only. We are working really hard to make these models miniatures. that's why we were silent for some time.
Shockwork - I'm a designer myself, it's not the renders I'm talking about. The proportions are the issue I have and they're confirmed in those physical prototypes. Compared to the guns and legs, the "torso" looks tiny.. The guns look gigantic now that I can see them in scale with other models and the legs are way taller and bulkier than needed, especially if it doesn't even transport a person. Look at exsiting robots. The legs are way more light.
The angles on the torso are not as steep as the concept art, adding to the stunty profile. The tops of the legs extend past the hip servos and are wider than the concept art. Proportionally, the height of the torso was used to measure the top of the leg to the knee and the knee to the ankle. That has a nice symmetry to it which did not carry over to the 3d. The guns in the concept art were much smaller and more believable. The muzzle on the minigun is about the same size as the sensor thing on the concept art but almost twice as big in 3d and the muzzle on the autocannon is ridiculously large. Both are thicker and longer than the concept art as well. It's like someone modeled the guns like on the concept art and someone else came along and said "naw dawg, we gotta make those bigger!!!11!!!!!!" and then scaled them 2x and made the muzzles even bigger than that. The width of the foot in the concept art is only slightly bigger than the planar area that the sensor on the torso is resting on (the very middle on the front facing). In the 3d and prototype it's almost 2-3x the size of that area.
Hopefully that was specific enough to illustrate my concerns.
I'm interested in what was shown in the concept art but what you have there as the actual model is something I wouldn't pay $5 for.
I would assume the legs are bulky because it is designed to be fast moving, at least according to the lore I skimmed at. Moving at faster speeds it needs to support, balance the weight and range of motions over multiple terrains so it would be essentially walking legs. Unlike traditional mecha which tend to be slower moving, utilizing treads/wheels for speed. I would guess the gatling is anti-personnel while the tank gun is for other mecha, needing larger legs to fire and stay stable while moving.
The legs don't really bother me nor does the torso so much. If it is a remote, I am more bothered by the large odd shaped cod piece. I don't understand what purpose the dorsal fin serves there since we aren't cramming a pilot inside. It doesn't look like it holds ammo because its too thin, it doesn't really serve as armor. Removing that piece will help the overall profile.
I imagine the GEKKO from Metal Gear Solid was a design influence. The Ulysses seems to be channeling it quite a bit, so I imagine that's why the proportions look the way they do.
You guys are misunderstanding. The concept art has different proportions than the finished model. I like the concept art but the 3d model aint that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here. I took the render and the concept art into Photoshop. I scaled the render up to the same height. The differences should be more apparent now.
I don't consider concept art to have to match exactly, most concept art never matches exactly. From the time the concept art is made, to when someone tests and makes modifications in sculpting for various reasons... it usually won't match concept art 100%. People don't tend to recreate new concept art to match the modified sculpt, that is why it is concept art and not final art. They would create final art though based on the finalized version, which may or may not be the concept art but is usually considered the final miniature.
Now whether they want it to match the concept art more closely, that is a question. That is more up to them though. As a designer I can understand how you might want them to match closer, but they might have made decisions to make changes later after the art was created.
Dark Severance wrote: I don't consider concept art to have to match exactly, most concept art never matches exactly. From the time the concept art is made, to when someone tests and makes modifications in sculpting for various reasons... it usually won't match concept art 100%. People don't tend to recreate new concept art to match the modified sculpt, that is why it is concept art and not final art. They would create final art though based on the finalized version, which may or may not be the concept art but is usually considered the final miniature.
Now whether they want it to match the concept art more closely, that is a question. That is more up to them though. As a designer I can understand how you might want them to match closer, but they might have made decisions to make changes later after the art was created.
Actually, I have a 3d modeling background too (including teaching it at the college level) so it kinda irks me when I see stuff like that. 3d modelers have had the ability to bring in art and match models to it for a very long time. In fact it's one of the earliest things taught and considered a standard in training. Modeling from design sheets is a crucial skill. I know it might seem like I'm upset over this or it's a big deal.. I'm really not. They did specifically ask for a critique and that's what I'm offering so please don't read more into this.
As a side note.. when I did the concept on the Dropship for Titanforge, they matched the parts that I detailed to the letter. We were working fast and they only wanted basic shapes for the hull but the cockpit and engines are scary close to the art I gave them. I have had my art not turn out so great at sculpt time too though from others but that wasn't done 3d so I figured it deserved some slack.
Vermis wrote: It all looks very pretty, but are there any prints or casts? Render distrust is hard to shake, especially with some of the kickstarters round here.
I sort of agree with MLaw about the mech, but my confusion is how a pilot fits in there. Or is it explained...?
We have prototypes. Each model is given to the fine folks at Maxmini for checks. I doubt we'll have casting issue and with 2 "house" 3D artist fixes happen pretty fast.
I'm curious as to a more in depth critique on the Ulysses.
MLaw, I find your critique to be overly technical, pedantic, long, and a bit obsessive.
I enjoyed it immensely! Well done.
I still think the... robot drone looks fairly nice, but even before the critique I still think it looks just a tad bottom-heavy (is that a real term?) for my tastes. Sorry.
MLaw wrote: it kinda irks me when I see stuff like that. 3d modelers have had the ability to bring in art and match models to it for a very long time. In fact it's one of the earliest things taught and considered a standard in training. Modeling from design sheets is a crucial skill. I know it might seem like I'm upset over this or it's a big deal.. I'm really not. They did specifically ask for a critique and that's what I'm offering so please don't read more into this.
I know you aren't upset or think this is a big deal. I'm not arguing or debating or even saying that you are wrong, which is why I didn't quote you. You gave an opinion based on concept art matching 3d modeling and your opinion, which is a dislike they don't match. My opinions are based solely on the completed prototype model itself. I honestly could careless about the concept art. I'm not buying the artwork, I'm buying the finished model so what if it matches or how they got to the end look doesn't matter for me. For me it is more on the lines that I don't completely agree on the actual model.
3d modelers have always had the ability to match models to art, whether they do so or not though or even if it needs to is subjective though. From the manufacturing side, 3d modeling can match concept art perfectly, but there are many reasons why it shouldn't and doesn't always. There are many times details that are too thin, shouldn't be done even though it is on the concept art because it causes issue with printing and/or casting in the long run. It isn't about matching but more of a marriage and compromise to find the best route. 2d artwork especially concept and illustrations aren't designed to be exacting. This is most common in 3d game design when certain features and designs on paper and on a non-moving, posed model look great. When they animate it, there can be other issues causing them to need to make modifications. Now if this was final artwork going on a cover, decapitating a battle scene and wasn't concept art then I would have an issue with the art not actually matching the 3d modeling.
I don't necessarily think the above is the case here. The larger weapons in my opinion look better than the smaller ones and I have an issue with the cod piece part on the model. But again that is personal opinion on the actual prototype, not in reference to the concept art and each person will have different opinions on that. There isn't exactly a wrong or right way in that aspect.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vermis wrote: I still think it looks just a tad bottom-heavy (is that a real term?) for my tastes.
Bottom heavy can be a term now... although I'm not sure I'm thinking about it the same way you are. ^_^ I do agree partially, but I also think part of that is because of the bottom cod piece that looks like a dorsal fin, elongating and making stick out more. I think modifying that will help the profile a bit more.
I like it, I just think the weapons need to be scaled back down a little bit and it would be perfect. Since it's a miniature though you can only go so far or I imagine the parts will be too brittle (unless you use brass rod for gun barrels, maybe).
I asked for critique, So I'm not upset at all. I'm hearing you guys about the scales sizing more than anything else.
as for designs I love the design on this its pretty cool too me lots of room to paint icons, logos slogans. there's also room for stowage and alternate parts.
the guns got scaled back mainly in the Gatling to help preserve the Ulysses "Bushmaster" A-Symmetry.
We had fixes by requested at 9 am with fixes done by 1pm
Got 2 pics fo' ya'
Big Gatling
Little Gatling
We're listening.
What do you like more Big gun or Smaller Gun? I like the Smaller gun.
We can do some things but other are design choices we've made or forced by needs of production.
I'm going on a limb with the next few things and Hope Michal doesn't Issue a Death Warrant.
Here's a shots of the parts. This pic is not of the parts after fixes.
I want everyone to understand I'm a modeler first. I'm looking forward so badly to seeing these guys pinned and glued with camo netting, stowage, squatting. Built like a WWII tank kit just decked out. hence the need to keep it a little plain.
I can't wait to get mine an add some Recon weapons, a shovel, some bags, An Ammo box, maybe have a Recon model riding off the back.
That being said you need to build it. 18 Pieces. Including a separate Optic. Again this isn't the final renders or layout just the parts spread out for you to see.
Not kidding about Alternate Parts either (Issue Death Warrant) Click to enlarge the concept.
We have 3 Variants were working on now. All Mechanized Infantry will be like this. Various kits allowing for customization
I'm liking the variants. the symmetry of the Artillery type is nice and I like the little sub arms on the Breecher. Suggestion though, how about a variant with a shield attached? It could be a variant with shields attached that troops could use as mobile cover.
*Death Warrant Issued* traget: ShockworkStudio_Shane reason: uploading not finished artwork.
I'm really glad that you guys like my artwork so much, but it's 3d that's crusial for the production process. We are really thankful for youe opinions, all of them are taken seriously, as you can see with the newest renders. Very soon we'll talk in more detail about Ulysses variants and accessories (yes, what you have seen so far is only 50% of the whole kit), so stay tuned.
Wait what? That concept art is nice! My point was if the sculpt matched that I'd be all over this.. that's like..the opposite of an insult. I was simply saying that the design in the 2d wasn't carried over.
The flow of lines from the top down through the legs is so much smoother in the 2d too. For the 3d it doesn't flow very well.
Anyway, re: the scaling of the guns.. Yes, that helped. The muzzle on the autocannon thing is still OTT but that minigun does look more sensible to me.
Glad you guys are open to critique, both as artists and as a compnay. Both are good signs IMO.
No they're human. More human than most factions in fact...
But if you like the lanky arms look you'll love UNAS.
Hopefully we'll have some renders of the Zadruga soon.
Here's a piece of my concept art shoving one of the versions of Dead Winter unit with it's Bukavac (that beast). I'm not gonna lie, Zadruga is my favorite faction, and I had so much fun designing it. And at last I can show you something with them!
Of course it's not the whole page, for that you will have to wait a little more, till another update. I chose my favorite head design and torso, but there is more.
Like this head design (Shane's favorite btw.), skulpted by our 3d artist, Dario Furlan.
I love the Zadruga antlered skull helmets. They aren't Wendigo, but I get that vibe from them (wilderness horror, savagery, cold stark bone, the inhuman chill of Winter), and I quite like it. Also possibly distant cousins of Rackham's Drunes?
I never would have expected anyone to do a sci fi miniature faction based on this aesthetic, but its one that's close to my icy heart.
If you can make the Zadruga aesthetic work in the final sculpts, and you're not going to fill out their ranks in the future with something stupid like comedic goblins or half-naked women in chainmail bikinis, you've got a future customer.
I'd be curious to know more about this world you're building. I'd like to know more about the Zadruga backstory and what their motivations are, as well as what kinds of other units they have coming. (If they're actually really nice guys behind the masks, you've ruined everything.) More monstrosities like their hounds would be very welcome. I hope you can keep their unique horror aesthetic going strong through the whole faction.
We definitely want to build this faction with a veil of mystery and horror, so alot of their Lore will be written from the perspective of survivors, official reports, etc. We really hope that you'll find it interesting!
ShockworkStudio_Michael wrote: We definitely want to build this faction with a veil of mystery and horror, so alot of their Lore will be written from the perspective of survivors, official reports, etc. We really hope that you'll find it interesting!
That sounds like a very smart approach. Where this brand of horror is concerned, often the more you know, the less scary it is. The moment you get inside the head of a Wendigo and it starts using "I" to tell a story, it's not really a Wendigo story anymore.
It's a strange dance. The reader naturally sees this bizarre, terrifying thing and asks "What is that? Why is it doing this?" If the author replies, "You want to know everything? Well, I'm not going to tell you!", then the reader's response is both a frustrated "*&$(&$!!" and "Aaaah! This is so creepy! I have to read more!"
But if the author then explains too much, the story is dead in the water, not least because the explanation is generally stupid. This is the classic zombie apocalypse problem - it's compelling until they tell you why the zombies are coming back, because there's nothing you can say that makes that remotely plausible. This is why most zombie films start with the return of the Dead as an unexplained given, and why shows like the Walking Dead put off explanations for as long as they can.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess this is fairly early in your design process, but do you have any ideas regarding when some of these miniatures might become available? I image Gutierrez will be first, but it's the Zadruga that capture my imagination.
I'd even be interested in just buying the helmets, if you ever decide to sell bits, though I'd prefer to get the entire models. Would your figures be comparable to Prodos Warzone's in scale, proportion, and material? That's the closest analogue I can think of when I see your designs and the Gutierrez render.
Zadruga do look to be an interesting bunch. I really hope that you will do at least one of them though with those weird, Aeon Flux-esque lanky proportions. That would certainly add to their otherworldly, inhuman look.
IMHO Looks better with the smaller gatling (I like big guns but the big one makes the other cannon look redundant).
The upper body of the walker still looks to small - and the gun arms should be closer to the body instead of sticking out in 90 degree angles.
Perhaps something like this?
We were working pretty hard on the Ulysses, we changes alot of small details here and there. I'll post a new video and images soon, so keep an eye on that;]
Barzam We have some crazy ideas for them, you should not be dissapointed
The Bushmaster can punch holes in the wall with its Dual Tiamat Flak Cannons for other troops to advance through, creating new tactical possibilities. Their manipulator arm allows it to operate terminals, open doors, or just punch someone in the face with the enormous strength of a mech.
I love the mental image of this dude kneeling down, just to punch someone in the face.
Definitely some Metal Gear vibes coming from UNAS. Have you guys settled on a material for Kali yet?
So far, while I'm liking UNAS, I think the NAU are probably my favorites as far as aesthetics go. I like the ragged, survivalist look to them. If Zadruga can pull off the creepy, they'll be a very strong second. All of the designs so far have been awesome though. Keep it up.
There's definitely an MGS vibe. Hideo Kojima and Yoji Shinkawa's work is genius IMHO.
The N.A.U. are probably my favorite we've shown. I can't wait to preview the Engineering Corps probably my favorite from the N.A.U. Line up a this time.
Loving the art direction. Keep on listening, all of the changes you have made so far have been improvements in my eyes (although I liked the originals too).
I don't get interested in many sci-fi settings, but your visuals have really grabbed me.
Again, the art direction is fantastic and very promising.
Unfortunately no.
We initially wished to create the entire line in plastic. But after tons of research checking every possible route to get into plastic production we decided that at this time it wouldn't be feasible. Honestly were too small of a company and we don't have a large enough fan base but its some point we would love to go into full plastic production for our line.
I would love to see our line in the multi-part plastic the conversion possibilities swapping between kits just the mechanized infantry in plastic alone would be incredible.
That's why your support of ShockWork Studios is so crucial in order to gain a foothold in the industry.
As Shane said in his last post: unfortunately, we won't be able to produce platic models for now. We decided to start the production in resin with the help of Maxmini, as it is the guarantee of superb quality. Guys from Maxmini are really helpful, making sure that all of our models will be prepared for production even before the Kickstarter campaign.
AlphaStrain rules set is based on small, skirmish, tactical scenarios, so resin production will be best for that. If you'll like the world, the game we have a bigger system already prepared. If we'll get to that point, maybe we'll go back to thinking about plastic production.
Right now we are preparing for the alpha tests of the game, so stay tuned! If you are interested, let us know. We'll post the official news soon.
As I commented on Facebook, I'm looking forward to this. The partnership with Maxmini gives me very high hopes for the quality. What kind of pledge levels are we looking at on this?
Barzam wrote: As I commented on Facebook, I'm looking forward to this. The partnership with Maxmini gives me very high hopes for the quality. What kind of pledge levels are we looking at on this?
Working with Maxmini is great news! Will definitely be backing
Requesting a mechs-only pledge level or way to pledge now (maybe just an add-ons pledge level?).
Thank you for your interest guys! Shane should update the thread name soon;]
Talking about pledges.
As this won't be a huge Kickstarter we can plan the pledges better and easier. There will be 3 basic types of pledges:
1. "Heroes pledge" to get characters models (Kali or SOC)
2. "Infantry pledge" to get troopers (Zhendu)
3. "Mech pledge" to suprise suprise get a mech
Each of these will multiply, so there will be a pledge for 1 infantry model, then another pledge to get 5 infantry. Same with heroes and mech but they will go in 2s instead of 5s.
Will use the remaining days to tease you with remaining stuff for the KS. Yeah, there will be more than we already shown.
Alpha tests should also start soon, so if you are interested contact us at shockworkstudio@gmail.com . We'll get you an alpha version of the rulebook and some unit profiles to play Alpha tests will be closed, but the following beta will be open for everybody.
Thanks for staying with us! We'll get back soon with more stuff to show.
That sounds excellent, Michael! You can also make a draft page of the Kickstarter if you want folks to be able to check it out and give feedback but the plan sounds great to me.
I hate to say it, especially as I love their stuff, but Maxminis own KS has really stalled badly
(partly due to a move, but partly as they seem to be taking on more work than they have staff to do in a timely fashion. I'm sure they'll deliver eventually but the natives are most definitely getting restless),
so if you're working with them you probably need to bake some timeline penalties into the contract
Ulysses Sidewinder test CAST. Resin, multi part, 70 mm, on Kickstarter really really soon.
The poseablitily is something tha tyou should enjoy while building that mech. Running, resting, even jumping Ulysses (if you really want to) are all posible options here.
I don't know if photos will show that, but the legs are poseable in two axises, thanks to the ball joints.
Hope you'll like it.
ah, and if you are wondering why the "eye" on the resin cast is different, it's because it was long in the transportation and I had to make a replacement :\
Alpha tests! Yup. We would like to invite you to participate in our closed alpha test of BlackRain AlphaStrain. If you are interested in playing the game before anyone else and sharing your thoughts with us, send us a message!
All you need to do is send an email at: shockworkstudio@gmail.com (name the email AlphaTests, please), so we could send you a rulebook, some unit profiles, everything you need to play BlackRain AlphaStrain!
Kickstarter Preview! UNAS didn't have a Mecha, right? Well, it has. It's one of the first concept arts for the whole game.
Light Mechanized Infantry for UNAS faction. Exactly like Ulysses it will come in 3 different variants, with different weaponry and role on the battlefield. For now, take a look at a packed image of almost all the parts for this kit.
We have a Kickstarter mock up for you guys! The countdown has started, we are closer than ever t make BlackRain a game we dreamed of.
Take a look at the campaign, at it's pledges and strech goals. If you have any concernes or ideas, let us know. You know that we take your opinions into account.
I see a few grammar and spelling mistakes in the text. I'll make notes of it on the page when I'm able to actually type on a computer instead of my phone.
I do have some questions though. How come you guys have figures that you can pledge for listed as stretch goals? Shouldn't the basic infantry, heroes, and mechs be unlocked from the start? Otherwise, why would I pledge for the two player set if I can't get it until the $30k goal is reached?
My next question is, will you have add-ons? Currently there aren't any listed. If I pledged for the two player box, but wanted a Yin Dao as well, there's currently no way to do that since add-on prices aren't listed.
That aside, the digital sculpts are looking good. NAU continues to be my favorite and I really like those new Zadruga designs.
The miniatures are listed as 35mm, it would be nice to get some comparison shots of them with other miniatures.
Unfortunately the layout of pledges and stretch goals is confusing.
You have pledges for a Hero and Infantry but none of those things look available until they are unlocked with "Stretch Goals". Listing those pledges early can be confusing as they don't look like there are options to choose from until "later".
For example the Two Player Starter doesn't even unlock until $30,000 but you let people pledge at $65. It is a poor design and misleading because the fund goal is $5k. If you only end up funding $6k and you didn't cancel the KS, that means the other pledges don't happen. People will tend to not pledge until it is unlocked if that is what they want, but not pledge and hope it gets unlocked. It also can be a misleading because it can make it seem that even if you fund at $5K, you might cancel if you don't unlock enough stretch goals.
My suggestion is if you are going to go through that route. Then don't list the pledges until they are unlocked, you can add pledges later. In this case if the $5K is for the Ulysses Sidewinder then other than the digital pack, that should be the other pledge. Once infantry is unlocked, then you add a infantry pledge, etc. Otherwise I would suggest a different concept for the campaign.
This looks like an Infinity clone - what's the key differentiator / improvement? What does this do better than Infinity? Why should I gamble on this instead of just buying Infinity?
Thanks for your comments guys, that's why we wanted to get your feedback first, as we knew there would be issues with it.
We showed all of the pledges so you could see how the system works, but yeah Dark Severance, I agree tha there should be an option to pledge for stuff that are unavailable. We'll just gonna add the new pledges as the miniatures gona get unlocked.
Barzam If you could, I'll be thankful Strech goals, and pledges, as I wrote above, there won;t be pledges for not unlocked stuff at the begining. Maybe we'll add additional purchases, but like with strech goals, they will be updating as they get unlocked.
JohnHwangDD For many reasons :
1. This is not a space opera
2. This is not a manga inspired game
3. The gameplay is not that complicated
4. 2D maps with it's own rules, unique events (something like a campaign, but with more replability value)
I think you should like it.
Thanks again for your replies! These are really helpful.
1 is debatable if it is a good or a bad thing, some like the bigger scope some don't and Infinity is not a space opera to begin with.
2 your style seems to be inspires more or less from metal gear and other similar Japanese sci fi/ high tech works like Shirow's work so not manga inspired is again debatable.
3 Since you have no rules present there is no proof in that.
4 Is this a good thing? 2D maps sacrifice vertical 3D gameplay.
Now on actual feedback.
I am hoping the video is a placeholder, its a nice teaser, but bad for the campaign, shows nothing of the game, the models, fluff or scope for the campaign.
"Bloody 35mm cyberpunk, miniature game!" needs a better tagline.
How about fast tactical combat in a dystopian cyberpunk universe?
Some parts of the text are too... friendly? need a bit reworking to sound more profesional.
The scope of the campaign is odd "help us fund a mech and then more miniatures" who are not usable in most other game ranges and then a game, which seems to be an afterthought, since a game is involved the game should be the main course and presented as such or limit this campaign in miniatures only see how it goes and then introduce another campaign for the game itself.
The streach goals need better explanation, Infantry kit, hero kit means nothing and contents are not explained, are infantry kits a single posed miniature are there extra options, how one selects different poses are there different poses available? (the pictures say yes, the text says nothing) same with streachgoals "unlock infantry kit" how about unlock X different poses to chose from or better bundle them as a squad.
Rules As kickstarter has become, if a game s involved backers want rules to be available from day 1 mantic got big flack in their walking dead for not including the rules from day 1 and they have good or bad delivered projects under them, other game projects are simply ignored.
Various observations Shipping is way to generous, many projects got issues especially f they over-succeeded in that department, better double-check, Ulysses Sidewinder Test Cast looks badly cropped and in the worse light it could be presented, better retake the picture, Tape measure in the Alpha Strain box, most of your backers will be seasoned gamers and will have one, Ikea sells one for 99 cents it seems an unnecessary expense, better print one in the same paper the template is printed and bring down the production cost.
Overall, make it more exciting emphasize on the lore and artwork on the strachgoals and take care on the ala cart it creates a huge issue post campaign, kickstarter is notoriously bad on pledge manager and a lot of options will need a third party site to be effectively handled.
First off, your visuals are very heavily manga inspired. The head of the one mech is a direct rip of the EVA-02 from the Neon Genesis Evangelion manga. Your mech and suit designs are very much ripped off from Shirow's Appleseed / Ghost in the Shell manga. Though being fair, you're also ripping off a fair bit from Kojima's Metal Gear designs, tho those are more video games than manga per se. Nothing to be ashamed of, but do claim you're not using other's manga designs is disingenuous at best, and an outright lie at worst.
OK, you say that gameplay is not complicated, what do you mean by that? I've got tactical gameplay down to 2 pages, with another page for game setup/deployment and a page for pre-game -- KOG light's rules run 4 pages total. Are your rules published for backer review? I won't back any game without first reading the rulebook.
Actually, Psychotic Storm just reminded me about something. I would very, very highly recommend that you post a picture that shows one of your figures next to a ruler or tape measure so that backers can get a better sense of the figures' size. Even better if you include a Ulysses in that pic as well. Size comparisons in general would be good to have.
I left feedback. It's confusing as is. I also feel non-pledge stuff should be linked to from the main page. Keep the main page as simple and clear as possible. A little background is fine but past a blurb, link to that as well.
I also made a suggestion. The cool forelimb attachment that adds the little grabby hands.. please make big load bearing arms to go with that replacing gunmounts for that build option. If you can't it's cool, I'll buy a cheap Zaku or something and do a conversion but the option would be nice.
Comparisons will always be made between two similar products in this situation it's a tabletop skirmish game.
I can assure you that the game itself wasn't an afterthought. It was actually designed before concept came to life.
I'm definitely not trying to get into the Shockwork Studio vs Corvus Belli. While we make a similar size game with respect to models and amount of models the gameplay mechanics, art style, concepts and overall content are very different from Infinity. I respect Corvis Belli and all of their products. I actually am a big fan of theirs.
I didn't say it is an afterthought, I said it looks like it.
And this is bad because it can give a wrong impression.
while I am at it, scientific terminology while good for hard sci fi credit, "Kessler syndrome" is something most reader will not understand and may get into wrong impressions instead of understanding that humanity is stranded in earth because of overwhelming swarms of orbiting debris.
Well huh. 4 armed ninja ladies are something I have a distinct lack of.
Always a fan of weird Metal Gear- esque cybernetic boss type characters (even though I'm not much of a MGS fan).
I agree with the sentiment that the KS preview page needs to have the simple easy pledge pictures up at the top, and all the crunchy details and info down towards the bottom.
I don't mind reading through all that, but I'm not the average Kickstarter backer either.
Oh even better Highlord Tamburlaine she has 6 arms.
I appreciate your input Psychotic Storm. As this game is aimed at a more mature crowd due to content like genocide, ethnic cleansing and population relocation I think real scientific terms are also appropriate.
I remember when you would give me advice on how to play Infinity when I first took it up long before you came to Dakka. You were always very helpful. I belive your presence in the Infinity community also landed you a model based on you. I thought that was an incredible thing by them to do for a very supportive fan. Really show their community support. It was inspiring and all game companies should be that in touch.
I know we will be.
We're listening. We have since we announced the project.
ShockworkStudio_Shane wrote: As this game is aimed at a more mature crowd due to content like genocide, ethnic cleansing and population relocation I think real scientific terms are also appropriate.
I just want to say I echo the statement that using Kessler Syndrome will make someone go "huh". It is fine in the storyline, in the books and website to state things that way but for a Kickstarter it is bad. You don't want to have to have someone look something up to figure out what something is or meant. At that point you've lost their interest if they have to 'look things up'. It has nothing to do with maturity as it has to do with target audience, not all gamers are hard scifi fans and this isn't a common terminology used. Ethnic cleansing and genocide are self explanatory by themselves but Kessler Syndome is not.
It is easy to remember KISS (Keep It Stupid Simple).
Just to give an example. One of our scifi games originally had Event Horizon in the title. It was named because of the definition for it. "A point of no return", a point at which the gravitational pull becomes so great as to make escape impossible. It was a representation of the universe environment that got stuck in the cycle of war, no matter the intentions there is no way to escape war because everyone has hundreds of years of death and fighting on their hands, hard set feelings of anger and resentment. It also ties in black holes, which is in part what is incorporated into the drive engines of the space ships allowing them to punch a hole through space and jump to another system. We thought it was smart, intelligent and aptly fit.
Do you know what happened? 90% of everyone who saw it, referred to it, came to learn about it could only tie it into one thing... a really bad horror movie. There was people who were hoping it was a licensed, dark horror themed game. And others who just didn't get the name.
Don't count on "mature" being a defining understanding or reason to do something... chances are you will find that audience is much smaller than you think. We thought it was scientific, people would understand it... and we were wrong. Not saying we're an expert on the matter but it was definitely an interesting lesson we learned.
That's OK. When I read "Black Rain", I was assuming this would be a Hiroshima / Nagasaki thing. Or at least some sort of Yakuza hunt a la Fury of Dracula. I wasn't aware it wouldn't have anything to do with either of those obvious references.
I backed HINT and it's a similar flavor of pudding. They won me over by having a nice balance and good art direction (I like it but there's a LOT of nitpickers).
I highly encourage you to use footnotes at the very least with annotations to direct readers to the definitions. I like science. I like science fiction. I'm moderately mature. I don't have an abundance of time for looking up terms in short stories these days though.
Kessler Syndrome is a word thrown in the fluff that sounds impressive but does not explain why and how it affects the fluff of your world, I can understand its potential a planet stranded from the rest of the universe is faced with continuous reduced resources and no means to escape the death grasp a space expansion could provide.
Plus the issue of not having satellites and any workarounds that may be needed to overcome such a crippling problem.
If you indeed plan on having such a plot element central in your storyline you could introduce it with a fabricated ominous prediction either attributed to kessler (because he has not make any quote ominous enouph yet) or somebody else fictional expanding on his theory.
Always assume that your audience is completely ignorant of any term that has not entered common language or pop culture and introduce your term to them in a small and easy way.
Always assume that your audience is completely ignorant of any term that has not entered common language or pop culture and introduce your term to them in a small and easy way.
Yup.. This is a standard. For fiction the standards are lax but in any technical writing, when you introduce a term that is not common parlance, you're expected to provide a definition or reference at first usage.
I've been involved in a lot of instructional development and creation of learning materials and this was really big. The same stands for acronyms.
Looking forward to seeing the next draft! Any word on my suggestion about the load bearing arms?
It looks like the updated version is up now. There's certainly a clearer sense of what your pledge gets you. Except now there's an $85 pledge that gets you 5 figures. That seems like a lot, especially compared to the starter sets which give 8 figures and additional stuff for $65. What makes the $85 a better deal than the $65 starter? Will stretch goals be added to that? So far, it seems like a poor value, especially compared to the starter. Aside from that, the revision does look better.
BTW, You should have a minimum of $10 or $20 for the a la carte thing. Force people to commit for more than a can of soda.
Please don't do this. I have skipped kickstarters where I really didn't need much or anything but wanted to buy a model to show some support and a minimum buy-in premium on that one model threw it past MSRP before shipping was even involved.
Just wanted to tell that this is not the latest version. I'm still working on it and you should like it even more. You just need to give me a couple of hours and I'll show you need rewards, strech goals, etc.
MLaw We really like the idea! It's something that we wanted to do anyway, but unfortunetely it's not something that will happen on this kicksterter :\ but if you have some reference pictures, or just a drawing of yours, send us that, please. We are definitely interested in doing something like that.
Btw. You asked on KS: why Ulysses over a TAG? First: material, we are using resin, second thing: multi-part. You can glue Ulysses in any pose you want (I'm gonna build a running one as soon as I'll have more time).
I'm getting all this fixed, so you all should be happy, and so you can grab onto models that you want as soon as possible, without taking too much risk by us.
JohnHwangDD wrote: $10 or $20 won't break you if your real intent is to support.
Yeah but it's not just $10 or $20 at that point.. then you add on the $12 mini plus $5-$10 in shipping and now you're in for close to my monthly gaming budget. In the instances where I couldn't buy the minis because of the buy-in I did toss them a couple of bucks. Which.. that passive aggressive implication that I was not being genuine is unnecessary. There's plenty of campaigns where I couldn't afford whatever but wanted to see them do well so toss in a fiver. I'm just not financially set to be able to turn over a ton of cash out of generosity.. and it's not like this is Wounded Warrior or Make A Wish Foundation or whatever..
BlackRain -
I understand where you're coming from. Just keep in mind I can hop on Miniature Market right now and grab a similar mech for $35 and it'll be here next week. I'm not saying that's where you should be just consider that these are things going on inside potential backers heads.
I got that alpha ruleset and will be throwing it together tonight. I have some TAGs and some other robots I can sub for yours and plenty of sci-fi humans (keep this in mind too ;P )
As to my suggestion for the arms.. Below is a picture of the Ghost in the Shell suit I'm talking about. While researching the current market for TAGs I did realize that CB has actually released a few of these types of things for Infinity. Appleseed has similar suits as well called the landmate.
JohnHwangDD wrote: $10 or $20 won't break you if your real intent is to support.
Yeah but it's not just $10 or $20 at that point.. then you add on the $12 mini plus $5-$10 in shipping and now you're in for close to my monthly gaming budget. In the instances where I couldn't buy the minis because of the buy-in I did toss them a couple of bucks. Which.. that passive aggressive implication that I was not being genuine is unnecessary. There's plenty of campaigns where I couldn't afford whatever but wanted to see them do well so toss in a fiver.
Dude, do you even Kickstarter? If your intent is to throw a buck in the jar, you can still do so for "No Reward", simple as that. The passive-aggressive implication that I'm casting aspersions on your lack of character is entirely on you, not me.
Thanks for all the feedback! I think that you should like this version way more. I only touched the written material on it, as I focused on actual strech goals and rewards.
MLaw Something like that...I think Bushmaster's front is the closest thing to what you would like to get.
And about that minimum pledge for add-ons. There won't be any 10 or 20$ minimum. I'm a gamer with a small budged myself, so I understand exactly your point.
Let us know what do you think about the latest Draft and I'll keep working on that. Thanks again for all the help!
MLaw wrote: As to my suggestion for the arms.. Below is a picture of the Ghost in the Shell suit I'm talking about. While researching the current market for TAGs I did realize that CB has actually released a few of these types of things for Infinity. Appleseed has similar suits as well called the landmate.
Keep in mind that GitS and landmates have pilots inside of them, which is why they have their actual arms (the small arms) and the larger hands mirror their movements.
Their mechs, at least these ones, do not have a pilot inside. They are a remote with some simple AI inside. I'm assuming that maybe the other one with arms can have a VR interface for grappling but it is there to allow them to move rubble, punch or do things that would require hands where the others can not. It would seem redundant to put robotic larger arms to replace the weapon mounts and another set of robotic arms.
MLaw wrote: As to my suggestion for the arms.. Below is a picture of the Ghost in the Shell suit I'm talking about. While researching the current market for TAGs I did realize that CB has actually released a few of these types of things for Infinity. Appleseed has similar suits as well called the landmate.
Keep in mind that GitS and landmates have pilots inside of them, which is why they have their actual arms (the small arms) and the larger hands mirror their movements.
Their mechs, at least these ones, do not have a pilot inside. They are a remote with some simple AI inside. I'm assuming that maybe the other one with arms can have a VR interface for grappling but it is there to allow them to move rubble, punch or do things that would require hands where the others can not. It would seem redundant to put robotic larger arms to replace the weapon mounts and another set of robotic arms.
My thought was that the smaller arms would be for more subtle manipulation like opening doors or operating machinery while larger arms would be for melee or heavy lifting.. or... for more rpg or campaign type play.. to have a hardpoint that is versatile.. So.. if it's a large pair of arms, you can put a large rifle, laser cannon, or other heavy equipment without having to actually change the hardpoint.
JohnHwangDD - Perhaps I'm touchy.. that aside.. No Reward is in fact what I did on those others where I tossed them a fiver (thought that was clear in my previous post). I just would like the idea of being able to pick up a souvenir as it were. Thankfully Shockwork understands where I'm coming from
JohnHwangDD wrote: I do not understand the distinction between the $170 tier and the $115 tier. They seem to be the same, so perhaps better to merge them?
The Kickstarter page lists Shockwork Studio as Portland, OR. Is that correct? Is there someone here locally?
MLaw wrote: My thought was that the smaller arms would be for more subtle manipulation like opening doors or operating machinery while larger arms would be for melee or heavy lifting.
Considering cyborgs (being generic general here using GitS as reference) or even just cybernetic arms are able to lift and throw cars like they are cotton candy, having large arms don't really add a value at least to a remote unit. The only real difference between a small arm and a large arm is the amount of strength behind it, but there really isn't a big benefit to having more strength than what would be in the smaller arms/hands. They can already punch a hole through a wall, armor, manipulate and hold small weapons while having on par strength.
The only real reason to add arms is the rule of cool or for someone to utilize the model to represent a different model, for other games. If there was an actual pilot inside then there are other reasons on why that would be beneficial than tank sized weapons and turrets. It is one thing to say they can swap weapons easier without a hard point but that only makes sense if they have giant rifle sized weapons designed. If mechs with hands are the only one that can use those weapons, it makes them less suitable to a mobile unit with different types of mecha because its only useable by one variant. Hardpoints can be complicated or as easy as release and pop in a replacement, with the as the same speed as it would take to pick up a weapon.
However I'm making assumptions based on what they've shown for the world and background so far and using some other references to relate to it.
115$ reward doesn't include Zadruga, you would have to pledge for 170$ to get everything from the KS.
I'll work on it more tomorrow.
Dark Severance you pretty much summed it up. Ulysses is like a walking tank, packed with heavy weapons and layers of armor. It's a fire support platform for the rest of the army. Bushmaster variant, with it's arms, can use terminals, open doors, operate switches. This is very important in scoring Objectives, and at the same time very unique for a Mech of this class (Ulysses is a Medium Mech).
We have more "crazy", almost scrap build mech and bots for other armies of BlackRain, but it will have to wait until we develop the game a little. BlackRain has it's other side, with more post apocaliptic (a little) and "gangsta" look. It is based on North-South (Earth's Hemispheres) conflicts. We'll tackle that topic at some other time.
Thanks for the comments (I'll look into that PsychoticStorm, thanks). If you'll notice anything strange, or hard to understand, let us know.
Dark Severance - Yeah, that's what I was saying before though.. The smaller arms are like T-Rex arms.. they're great for stuff in front but actual larger arms have more versatility.
In actual sci-fi settings.. where continuity has to be considered (why I was talking about campaigns and RPGs) hardpoints are a very important consideration. If you've ever played Battletech or anything where Hardpoints were a PITA to change, having hotswappable hardpoints is a HUGE advantage. Having nice big, long-reaching arms with some bulk means if you want to pick up a rail gun that would normally be mounted on a ship.. you can. If it runs out of ammo, you can drop it and pick up a girder and smack your enemy around with that. If those hardpoints are just missile launchers then when your missiles are out, you're done.
So.. no.. the only real reason is NOT the rule of cool.. As John Hwang DD mentions.. the reach on those T-Rex arms doesn't allow for effective melee, throwing, reaching, climbing, or even to help the mech get up if it's knocked on it's back. They are restricted only to the front arc. Longer arms can reach down, lift the mech up, pull the mech onto higher surfaces, shield the front of the mech from various attacks, swing and throw large objects in an arc that would allow for effective close combat, and in a pinch could provide as a platform for a bunch of infantry to hang on if they need an emergency ride.
I've watched a ton of anime, played a lot of Mechwarrior based games, and just been interested in this type of stuff for 30+ years.. I've seen a lot of things and always thought the dual role arms were neat. There happens to be a real world example of how it works out.. Submersibles have manipulation arms and load bearing arms when they're made for deep sea recovery. Can't remember where the article was but I always really really like the idea.
Anyway.. sorry my suggestion started a bit of a debate. I'll be taking a look at those rules here shortly.
MLaw wrote: If those hardpoints are just missile launchers then when your missiles are out, you're done.
That's why missile units need LOTS of missiles.
And it doesn't hurt to add a fethton of missiles to a regular unit...
Spoiler:
lol, yeah.. if Mechwarrior Online has taught me anything it's that however many missiles you think is enough.. 10x that is still not quite enough. I can't tell you how many times I've blown through my entire salvo and had to fight using the small lasers on my torso hardpoints... or had one of my launchers blown off (or both on a catapult) and been reduced to a derp-a-tron. Ammo detonations are the worst though.
Shockwave - I'm already into the rules and there's definitely need for some heavy proofreading. There's lots of errors in grammar and spelling and a few places where the wording is iffy. I understand the intent in those places (so far) but clarity is definitely not optimized. EDIT: Also.. I'm not an alcoholic or anything but using Captain Morgan as your example in that one spot has made me thirsty
MLaw wrote: If you've ever played Battletech or anything where Hardpoints were a PITA to change, having hotswappable hardpoints is a HUGE advantage.
Battletech didn't have hardpoints. Yes you can customize a mech, but that isn't what the Lore supported. That was why swapping out weapons took weeks to do because it required a partial rebuild. Actual hardpoints weren't introduced until Clan omnipods, where swapping out weapons was a snap and click. To be fair the main reason was because it was all Lostech until much later, it wasn't a cyberpunk type genre but Battletech is a poor example to use in this situation.
I'll admit I can understand about the TRex arms.
MLaw wrote: sorry my suggestion started a bit of a debate.
Naw it isn't really a debate, there isn't a wrong or right answer. It is just a discussion about difference of opinions.
I personally just don't want to see them do something to make something 'more like' something that already exists. I like what they have, where each unit is specialized and has their strengths and weaknesses as drones. They are intermixable but when you start adding arms, suddenly it changes the dynamic nature of the mecha, designs. Now they start losing their unique flavor they have and become more of other things. Not to mention If you have one with arms and using large rifles, weapons because of versatility then why have the other versions.
MLaw wrote: If you've ever played Battletech or anything where Hardpoints were a PITA to change, having hotswappable hardpoints is a HUGE advantage.
Battletech didn't have hardpoints. Yes you can customize a mech, but that isn't what the Lore supported. That was why swapping out weapons took weeks to do because it required a partial rebuild. Actual hardpoints weren't introduced until Clan omnipods, where swapping out weapons was a snap and click. To be fair the main reason was because it was all Lostech until much later, it wasn't a cyberpunk type genre but Battletech is a poor example to use in this situation.
I'll admit I can understand about the TRex arms.
MLaw wrote: sorry my suggestion started a bit of a debate.
Naw it isn't really a debate, there isn't a wrong or right answer. It is just a discussion about difference of opinions.
I personally just don't want to see them do something to make something 'more like' something that already exists. I like what they have, where each unit is specialized and has their strengths and weaknesses as drones. They are intermixable but when you start adding arms, suddenly it changes the dynamic nature of the mecha, designs. Now they start losing their unique flavor they have and become more of other things. Not to mention If you have one with arms and using large rifles, weapons because of versatility then why have the other versions.
Points taken. Having a versatile (arms) option vs having specialized loadouts is the difference between a specialist and a jack of all trades. If you're toting a missile launcher with arms.. you probably don't have that much ammo and your systems are geared to support the arms and higher level manipulation and load bearing so targeting systems aren't dedicated to indirect flight path and trajectory prediction algorithms (so less accurate). If the unit is intended to be rear line fire support through indirect fire, then the trade off would be acceptable. If you have a variable role mission and sidewinders are meant to provide dynamic support for a shifting front, then at a moment's notice they could be on the front-line or the nature of their mission could change..so versatility would be desirable. This scenario is similar for any payload type ammunition or anything where you have ammo to tote around period.
Energy weapons on the other hand are a different situation.. Different weight requirements, heat dispersion, energy drain, and linear line of sight requirements..
Anyway.. on to the actual rules..
I see rules for mechanized infantry but I do not see the sidewinder's card. Is this an oversight? My book ends at Tactical Points.. the page just stops after the heading. As a suggestion.. a quickplay sheet would be supremely helpful to introduce the most basic concepts. Strip out the more detailed ideas and add them in.. build on it. I'll try to give this a go as it is but it's pretty stretched out. There's lots of rules about how to do things, but it's presented so far from the other ideas that the sections just read like nebulous rules. How are they meant to work together? The Beginning The Game (there's a typo in the pdf for the title, you've got it as Beggining The Game) has a LOT of stuff in it and really needs to be tightened up as far as organization. How do you win the game? I don't see this.. but I could've missed it.
In short.. organization.. that's the biggest issue to me. You seem to have most of what you need here in the book (I think) it just needs tidying up and an example of how one plays and wins.
Hope that was helpful (and that it's okay for me to post this here in this thread)
EDIT: I did find the section on a summary of game play..it's at the very beginning. I had read it but the VP section somehow eluded me. It's still not very detailed in that regard. There's a lot of other things I'm seeing but I feel like going through a full on list in this thread might not be appropriate to the nature of the thread..
@MLaw - as you've looked through the rules in some detail, if you were to sit down with a newbie, do you think you could get them playing within a half hour?
JohnHwangDD wrote: @MLaw - as you've looked through the rules in some detail, if you were to sit down with a newbie, do you think you could get them playing within a half hour?
Negative ghost rider.. The current level of organization has me unable to get myself going in a half-hour.
I'm throwing it over to my tablet so I can read over it more tonight but the formatting, huge graphics, wordy descriptions for stuff, and having to try to hunt down critical gameplay concepts without bookmarks caused me to have to step back and look at it from an editorial standpoint.
Also, it requires the use of a mission deck according to the summary which is not provided. There is an assortment of unit cards but those need to be seriously trimmed down. I think the font on all of this stuff is more than a bit oversized so it causes things that should only take up a paragraph or two to occupy an entire section. With the columnar formatting this means the 80 page rulebook should be closer to maybe 20 or 30 pages if I had to take a wild guess.
My takeaways.. D10 based. IGOUGO but on a unit level.. determined by a d10. Strategic goals (mission based) are the way to earn VPs.. so if you don't have a kill-based goal combat is highly optional. There is a lot of granularity and some of the structure strikes me closer to a light rpg feel. Army building is.. very..very confusing.. costing hexes and.. I .. yeah.. that part lost me. Model height actually impacts gameplay but it looks like it's standardized based on height classification.. so conversions are not going to hurt the models gameplay. LOS does use bases but is also factored by size. Modifiers.. holy.. crap.. there are so many modifiers. Dropship insertion is a thing but I don't see dropship rules so I assume it's just a method for entry (though you can botch the drop). Units have coherency rules.. it's spread out really far..so don't ask me what they are. Fireteams and coherency and some huge diagrams.. that's all I got out of that part. Templates are kinda like old school 40k but with added crits. Scatter sucks in this.. if your shot misses the opponent gets to move the scattered shot.. srsly??? When you get into the armory that's where the modifiers go into high gear.. There's like 3 or four pages of ammo types that all have different effects. There's psychology but the section on that is also in the section that describes how to start playing the game so .. I dunno.. MOvement.. basically = modifiers. I think movement is interesting because it does take into consideration "how" you're moving so that's cool but more modifiers.. There's where we get into some crazy special move type stuff that seems very very RPGish. It honestly reminds me a bit of Warmachine but more involved. Then you get into a basic action phase, a ranged combat phase, cover which is more modifiers, melee, and then.. the section that caught me a bit off guard.. Classes. It's not very long and doesn't actually clarify what they are. Then we have damage (10s are crit fails and 1s are crit hits or damage according to the book...???).
Next up is armor saves and energy field saves, stealth, more armor and field saves, a section on mechanized infantry (the sidewinder but no stats), more classes (???), and Tactical points. Tactical points are perks you get from doing stuff. In Shadowrun they would be like Karma points kinda... but they give advantages.. so maybe closer to Sisters of Battle Faith Points.. or Black Ops 3 Streak Rewards..
I know that was long but I wanted to try to break it down and help myself and others see the structure (for better and worse). It's very RPish. I haven't picked up Infinity so I can't draw comparisons.
@MLaw - First, thank you very much for your capsule summary. That was more than enough information for me to recognize that this is very likely not the game for me.
Second, ouch. This reads more like a RPG review than a TTWG brief, which is not so good when the industry is moving to lightweight gaming. That's why I asked whether one could get started in a half hour. Or even an hour. ____
@Shockwork - the ability to quickstart a game is pretty critical, because that basically determines how easily you can get new blood into the game. If the minis are nice enough, people will want to play. So rules and setup needs to be streamlined and structured to get a basic game going within minutes, not hours. Consider how easy it is to start playing 40k or Flames of War or X-Wing...
Dark Severance wrote: The Kickstarter page lists Shockwork Studio as Portland, OR. Is that correct? Is there someone here locally?
I am local Dark Severance. PM me your number we could set something up.
MLaw wrote: If those hardpoints are just missile launchers then when your missiles are out, you're done.
Unless your Commander spends Tactical Points to Drop in an Ammo Dump allowing {X} models to resupply weapons with “Limited Ammo”
MLaw wrote: In short.. organization.. that's the biggest issue to me. You seem to have most of what you need here in the book (I think) it just needs tidying up and an example of how one plays and wins. Hope that was helpful (and that it's okay for me to post this here in this thread)
No please do MLaw… I’m into feedback from you guys. It’s the only way to get proper refinement this needs. There is a light RPG feel I think once things are tightened up a little you guys will be surprised with game play.
I’m planning on designing a more inclusive cheat sheet, besides a Modifiers summary what else would you like to see on it?
Some of the content is missing and I know it’s frustrating but we’ll have the cards and tokens finished soon.
MLaw wrote: IGOUGO but on a unit level.. determined by a d10
I’d like to mention The Tactical Point Abilities Overwatch and Return Fire allow you to react to your opponent. Things like Overwatch Backpedal and Overwatch Waylayer allow for options other than firing.
With Backpedal you can move away from the Enemy and Waylayer allows you to interrupt their turn with a Melee Charge. So when played many unexpected things can happen if you spend the TP (Tactical Points)
MLaw wrote: Scatter sucks in this.. if your shot misses the opponent gets to move the scattered shot.. srsly???
I know it seems weird but imagine when it’s not you on the receiving end but your opponent and he misses by 8. It can get a little crazy. I think it’s fun.
@MLaw I really appreciate the Input. We should talk more. I’d like to see what you think after having the rules for a few days as you actually seem to really be reading the rules which is why we have them in your guys hands
JohnHwangDD wrote: @MLaw - First, thank you very much for your capsule summary. That was more than enough information for me to recognize that this is very likely not the game for me.
Second, ouch. This reads more like a RPG review than a TTWG brief, which is not so good when the industry is moving to lightweight gaming. That's why I asked whether one could get started in a half hour. Or even an hour.
____
@Shockwork - the ability to quickstart a game is pretty critical, because that basically determines how easily you can get new blood into the game. If the minis are nice enough, people will want to play. So rules and setup needs to be streamlined and structured to get a basic game going within minutes, not hours. Consider how easy it is to start playing 40k or Flames of War or X-Wing...
@JohnHwangDD- I wouldn’t be so disheartened any new game system has a bit of a learning curve. It does have a few modifiers. but your also not using huge armies. This is why we have such an early preview.
Even things like the Echelon System and recruiting your force is very different from the norm. I’ll get into that at a later point.
Shockwave - No problem but I think the philosophy behind the presentation of the book is the root of the problem. I don't know that there really was one.. it just seems like things were tossed in as the were written.
Organizing it so that you start off explaining what the game is.. Maybe something like a battle report but watered down a little. As that progresses, introduce key concepts including unit cards. Then start getting under the hood. The early stuff needs to be the lightest to process mentally.
As for cheat sheet. The old 40k sheets were GOLD. I learned most of the game from those and most of the time people had them on standby back in the day. This system is perhaps a little more complicated than 3rd and 4th ed 40k though.. so aspects of a D&D DMs screen also seem a bit necessary.
In short.. it should have an overview of the turn. Modifier charts, important page numbers (obviously this will not be possible until the organization is tightened up). The more tricky aspects of combat. Tactical points overview, ranges for things. I would honestly have the mission be by roll on a chart so people don't have to tote around a mission deck. You could release expansions later with different mission configurations.
The stuff you just posted.. the reaction stuff. That should have a subheading or something. People need to have clear cut rules for how out of sequence activations like overwatch or reactions unfold. I've played games with similar functions and if the rules are not clear it's a disaster. I can't even remember what system the one encounter was but we both had a load of units on overwatch.. and all these units started firing.. mine reacting to his and his to mine.. and.. we had NO CLUE how that all resolved so basically we just said it's all inclusive and basically all the wounds were resolved at the same time meaning very few models were left on the field after that bloodbath.
I'm not suggesting you go inclusive on resolving reactions for simultaneous removal.. just that.. if you DO it needs to be extremely explicit. Same for if there's a sequence to resolving reaction order.
I have a lot of ideas and a lot of feedback but I think maybe people who are in the thread for just the news might prefer we take this to e-mail or PMs. If you want, shoot me a PM and I'll give you my e-mail and we can talk that way.
It sounds like pretty involved gameplay that will require having a few cheat sheets on hand. Shockwork, I'm curious if it's possible to produce a cut down, bare-bones quickstart set of rules? Basically, leave out all of the more complicated things like variant ammunitions, special deployments, etc. Something that you could fit onto one, maybe two pages and allow new players to easily grasp the basic gameplay rules before they start adding in the fun stuff.
Rule are Shane's thing, but I'll comment on that a little as I'm helping hi anyway.
1. Modifiers, cheat sheets. You won't really need much for that. Everything you need is on the card: different ammo types for a weapon? It's listed on the card, so you just use the profile with that ammo, without looking how much POW does hollow point ammo have.
2. Quick Start Rules. That's a standard now, so of course we'll have it. I want to do something more than that: Tutorial Missions. Lesson by lesson, teaching all of the gameplay mechanics, by slowly adding more gameplay elements.
3. Rulebook. Yeah, it is messy, but that's why it is called alpha It is for looking at the basics, see how that plays. With another round of tests we'll add more cards, 2d map play mechanics, etc. But right now Shane will have to polish the basics.
Can you guys show some comparison pictures to other companies miniatures? The ones on the first page are too small and blurry to actually see anything.
I like your overall design and wouldn't mind grabbing few miniatures and add ons like helmets to add them to my infinity collection.
1. Modifiers, cheat sheets. You won't really need much for that. Everything you need is on the card: different ammo types for a weapon? It's listed on the card, so you just use the profile with that ammo, without looking how much POW does hollow point ammo have.
2. Quick Start Rules. That's a standard now, so of course we'll have it. I want to do something more than that: Tutorial Missions. Lesson by lesson, teaching all of the gameplay mechanics, by slowly adding more gameplay elements.
3. Rulebook. Yeah, it is messy, but that's why it is called alpha It is for looking at the basics, see how that plays. With another round of tests we'll add more cards, 2d map play mechanics, etc. But right now Shane will have to polish the basics.
Thanks for the feedback!
lol, first you guys are like "feedback good" now, after I spent hours of my life reviewing your game it's "eh.. you're pretty much wrong about everything". I'm just trying to tell you.. I can't learn to play your game from that alpha document. Have fun with your project.. I'm thinking I'll be elsewhere.
ShockworkStudio_Shane wrote: @MLaw I really appreciate the Input. We should talk more. I’d like to see what you think after having the rules for a few days as you actually seem to really be reading the rules which is why we have them in your guys hands
JohnHwangDD wrote: @MLaw - First, thank you very much for your capsule summary. That was more than enough information for me to recognize that this is very likely not the game for me.
Second, ouch. This reads more like a RPG review than a TTWG brief, which is not so good when the industry is moving to lightweight gaming. That's why I asked whether one could get started in a half hour. Or even an hour.
____
@Shockwork - the ability to quickstart a game is pretty critical, because that basically determines how easily you can get new blood into the game. If the minis are nice enough, people will want to play. So rules and setup needs to be streamlined and structured to get a basic game going within minutes, not hours. Consider how easy it is to start playing 40k or Flames of War or X-Wing...
@JohnHwangDD- I wouldn’t be so disheartened any new game system has a bit of a learning curve. It does have a few modifiers. but your also not using huge armies. This is why we have such an early preview.
Even things like the Echelon System and recruiting your force is very different from the norm. I’ll get into that at a later point.
See, that's the problem in a nutshell. It shouldn't take "a few days" for an experienced wargamer to wrap their head around a game system. The guts of a game system should be understandable within an hour. Your game is supposed to be small and fast. That means you should be looking at a quick, light rules system with fast, simple resolution. If it takes more time than DnD 5E, then you've basically failed. 20 years ago, I might have had the patience to unravel a complex RPG-like game. But now? No way. I'm not "investing" hours of time to try and figure out how to play a game when I can pull a variety of games off the shelf and get rolling in under an hour.
How you choose to do this is up to you. As you're going into production, I recommend custom d6 dice a la Super Dungeon Explore. Not something akin to early BattleTech or Heavy Gear Tactics.
MLaw Of course everything you just said is taken seriously. Thank you for your time and feedback. We'll try to get the next book better so you could actually enjoy it. I didn't say anywhere there that ou are wrong, I see your point, we are working on it.
We are sitting on this with Shane right now, trying to get this game be better.
Come down to the game design subforum, we have plenty of discussion about such things there with many approaches and people interested might give a helping hand.
ShockworkStudio_Michael wrote: MLaw Of course everything you just said is taken seriously. Thank you for your time and feedback. We'll try to get the next book better so you could actually enjoy it. I didn't say anywhere there that ou are wrong, I see your point, we are working on it.
We are sitting on this with Shane right now, trying to get this game be better.
Have you guys played test games with your rules?
Just so we're clear.. I'm not saying I'm 100% right but the point was to have a discussion about the state of the alpha document and your replies were not conducive to that in the slightest.
If you do take PsychoticStorm up on his offer to start a thread in the design subforum please link here. If constructive dialog is able to happen, I will help if able.
I'm agreed with PsychoticStorm - if you really want rules review and analysis, the Dakka Design forum is a better place to do that.
I can tell you that my biases lean very strongly toward streamlined and simplified, and can probably advise if that's the direction you want to go. The problem is that it seems that your current design is very far on the other side of the complexity spectrum, so there would be a lot of "editing" (i.e. cutting) required to bring it in line with the sort of game that I would prefer to play.
MLaw wrote: Have you guys played test games with your rules?
To be fair that is the point of having Alpha Tests and why testing groups outside of the design circle is important. The main reason is because what doesn't make sense to you, makes sense to them because they wrote it. Even if they are poorly written, they are able to fill in the gaps because they know the game. That is how often rules get released that seem like they haven't been tested because "new people" have different perspectives and understandings. They are often able to point out where there is a disconnect or a places that need clarification. It is also how game groups get stuck into thinking they have "streamlined and easy rules" but when they pass it out, it is more complicated than they think to a new person.
As an example it is often the difference between giving directions to someone's house. Someone local is who drives it everyday in most situations is most likely to say, "Drive up Powell until you see Fred Meyer's, making a left at the light." vs "Take Powell eastbound for 2 miles, making a left at the light." or even "Make a left onto E Powell traveling eastbound for 2 miles. You will have had driven through 2 stoplights and at the 3rd stoplight we will be making a left".
All of them are easy to follow for me being local and used to doing it over and over. Someone who hasn't been in the area or knows the area or out of town, might not even know what Fred Meyer's is or won't notice it on the left, until after they have passed it. Another person might not be paying close attention to miles and have passed it. I know not the best example but you get the idea.
MLaw wrote: Have you guys played test games with your rules?
To be fair that is the point of having Alpha Tests and why testing groups outside of the design circle is important. The main reason is because what doesn't make sense to you, makes sense to them because they wrote it. Even if they are poorly written, they are able to fill in the gaps because they know the game. That is how often rules get released that seem like they haven't been tested because "new people" have different perspectives and understandings. They are often able to point out where there is a disconnect or a places that need clarification. It is also how game groups get stuck into thinking they have "streamlined and easy rules" but when they pass it out, it is more complicated than they think to a new person.
Totally agreed. It is entirely possible (likely) that the first draft was even more complicated and convoluted.
Although, there is a certain complexity limit tied to page count. If one's rules are only a few pages, there is something of a limit to how complicated the game can possibly be, simply due to the brevity of the ruleset. For example, consider a 1-page ruleset like what you'd have for Chess, Backgammon and/or Go. The rules are relatively compact, and that allows someone to start playing rather quickly. That doesn't mean they will play well - I'd love to play cash Backgammon against a newbie... But it does mean that the smaller volume of rules is something that they can absorb in a relatively short amount of time. It's the reason why my KOG light and GW's Age of Sigmar were designed as 4-page rulesets.
Being able to streamline the rules down to the core is a good thing, because it helps clarify what's really important in a ruleset. To that end, getting the quickstart rules together should be a priority. And then have a clean version of the quickstart be the final, official ruleset.
Guys.. I get that.. I do.. but if you read them.. it doesn't even make sense. I legitimately think they wrote down arbitrary rules and haven't actually had ANYONE play through them..
I have quite a few of my own rule sets over the years trashed by my local community, I learned the hard way that beyond any bias the play testers may have, that writing a rules set is completely and entirely different from writing normally.
One can have played the game tested it and still deliver a text that is bad as far as a rules textbooks go, because it is written normally.
The fact that the (pre-?) alpha rules are 80 pages, with 3-4 pages of ammo types and d10s was enough for me to say "no". Even if it formats down to 20-30 pages, that's still double what I want to play. If they can get it down to a dozen pages of 2-column 12-point text, I might reconsider.
I'm going to be honest, I'm a hobby guy first and foremost. The rules, I don't care about. It feels harsh to say that considering someone has obviously put effort into writing them, but I'm really much more interested in having really cool looking figures. If the figures end up getting used in any games, it will probably be as Authorized Bounty Hunters and TAGs in Infinity or they will wind up being used in generic rulesets like Song of Blades and Heroes.
I would actually be perfectly happy if they just ignored the rules right now and focused on getting the minis produced. Back when they originally began teasing the line, I suggested producing a handful of figures to get yheir name out in the community first and then start pushing for the game. I still stand by that idea, too. That's what Shieldwolf ddid, it's what Dreamforge did, and it's what Minion Miniatures did. So, I think maybe just leave the rules out for now, focus on figures, and work on the rulebook later.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Well the market has places for many different styles of game design.
Besides a game developer can turn an 80 pages rules into a dozen pages without loosing the essence of the game.
I really think if they decide on a more concise presentation philosophy it'll help. Dropping the font size down to 12pt will help. Reducing oversized diagrams in size will help. It's very likely that it could get down to the 12-20 page range with effort. That said.. the essence of the game is still along the lines of Mordheim or as I mentioned a light rpg.. maybe World of Darkness type stuff. This is ignoring that they're not done adding things to the rules though.
I want to be clear, I don't think it's a failure. If your rules guy got that as the takeaway, I apologize entirely. I have no clue if the intended system is successful or fun or manageable. At no point did I mean to criticize that. It's why I pointed out that my review was more from an editorial standpoint. That's a very very important distinction.
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Barzam wrote: I'm going to be honest, I'm a hobby guy first and foremost. The rules, I don't care about. It feels harsh to say that considering someone has obviously put effort into writing them, but I'm really much more interested in having really cool looking figures. If the figures end up getting used in any games, it will probably be as Authorized Bounty Hunters and TAGs in Infinity or they will wind up being used in generic rulesets like Song of Blades and Heroes.
I would actually be perfectly happy if they just ignored the rules right now and focused on getting the minis produced. Back when they originally began teasing the line, I suggested producing a handful of figures to get yheir name out in the community first and then start pushing for the game. I still stand by that idea, too. That's what Shieldwolf ddid, it's what Dreamforge did, and it's what Minion Miniatures did. So, I think maybe just leave the rules out for now, focus on figures, and work on the rulebook later.
I think that's a good idea if they're planning on going into production soon. Work on the rules quietly in the background with community input and playtesting and then do a new KS or product launch when the rules feel tight enough to launch as a published rulebook.
In my mind this is very cyberpunk/hard sci-fi and that's a genre I hold near and dear.. so if I can help I don't mind it.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Well the market has places for many different styles of game design.
Besides a game developer can turn an 80 pages rules into a dozen pages without loosing the essence of the game.
I agree with both points, although I think the essence of a game should be distillable into 8 pages. Or less. ___
Barzam wrote: they will wind up being used in generic rulesets like Song of Blades and Heroes.
I would actually be perfectly happy if they just ignored the rules right now and focused on getting the minis produced. Back when they originally began teasing the line, I suggested producing a handful of figures to get yheir name out in the community first and then start pushing for the game. I still stand by that idea, too. That's what Shieldwolf ddid, it's what Dreamforge did, and it's what Minion Miniatures did.
The notion of licensing or partnering for generic rules is a good one, and I don't understand why more minis companies don't go that route. Someone has already done the heavy lifting in making a workable ruleset, so all that's left is to assign stats, which one would have to do anyways.
Dreamforge should also be looking at generic rules, as the game design thing has kind of been sitting in the background as a huge, expensive to-do. I'm not sure Mark's at Alpha for the DFG game. Sure, there's an IP thing, but what's the payoff compared to minis that just sell? DFG makes good stuff, and that counts for a lot.
There is a distinct difference in a company making miniatures and a company making miniatures intended for their own wargame, in the second case, the rules must be solidly established so the miniatures can depict what the wargame includes.
So I think in BR case the ruleset is important.
Now that I realize how close the launch day is I wonder if a delay would help.
JohnHwangDD - The generic rule thing is my ideal solution to a lot of these miniature ranges as well.. but they have each accumulated vocal fanbases that are rabid about how they want their own special snowflake of a ruleset.. I hate to be cynical but these vocal folks tend to be darling to smaller companies so they listen to them
Barzam wrote: I would actually be perfectly happy if they just ignored the rules right now and focused on getting the minis produced.
That is what we plan to do with out line to a degree. We'll be doing a line of miniatures to establish us more but still providing rules, they will just be free. That will allow community testing for those that want to and playability, while getting the miniatures out and letting others choose what to do with them.
MLaw wrote: Dropping the font size down to 12pt will help. Reducing oversized diagrams in size will help.
Oh if that is how many pages it is at a larger font and not even a dual column book, then it is much smaller than 80 pages. Most books are font 10, sometimes 11, 12 tends to be a bit too big and at least double columns is the better layout. That should definitely compress it down to a much smaller size.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The notion of licensing or partnering for generic rules is a good one, and I don't understand why more minis companies don't go that route. Someone has already done the heavy lifting in making a workable ruleset, so all that's left is to assign stats, which one would have to do anyway.
Although there are good rules and bad rules out there, I don't think settling on the quick and easier path is necessarily the right path. Although admittedly I would like the ruleset to be generic. That was one thing that made us go back and question each step, asking why did we decide X over Y for our rules that we're working on. For me I can admit the main reason is I haven't found a set of rules that I like 100%.
As the gaming community gets older, and their eyes get worse, 12-point should be the standard font size. 10-point gets to be something of a strain.
It's not a question of "quick and easier", it's a question of playable vs unnecessarily reinventing the wheel. That's what the overwhelming majority of rulesets do. Except they then decide to "improve" the wheel by mounting it off-center. Or adding bumps. Or changing the shape from a circle to a square. And then there's this ridiculous push for exotic d10s, just to be different. Newsflash: if the game engine is actually good, it works just fine with d6s and doesn't need d10s.
That isn't to say that your game is going to be bad. But a lot of these games are bad due to the addition of "features" to make their game more "special".
JohnHwangDD wrote: It's not a question of "quick and easier", it's a question of playable vs unnecessarily reinventing the wheel. That's what the overwhelming majority of rulesets do. Except they then decide to "improve" the wheel by mounting it off-center. Or adding bumps. Or changing the shape from a circle to a square. And then there's this ridiculous push for exotic d10s, just to be different. Newsflash: if the game engine is actually good, it works just fine with d6s and doesn't need d10s.
That isn't to say that your game is going to be bad. But a lot of these games are bad due to the addition of "features" to make their game more "special".
That is true, often times what one person may think is streamline adds other complications. I use D10s mainly because it is easier to adjust stat lines, at least for me. Although Personally I'd rather use D20 but they become bulky if you are going to roll more than 4 at a time.
Hey Guys. Sorry for not commenting but we spend whole night with Shane working on the rulebook. Shane will post his thoughts as well soon. All of your feedback is taken seriously and it's helping to shape this game to what we wanted it to be.
I want to ask you some questions from a graphic designer perspective.
Right now the rulebook is a 14x18,2 cm format (5,6 x 7,5 inch) using 8 point font size.
1. Would you rather get a standard A4 format rulebook? I could fit more on the page.
2. Are the examples are too big? Could I shrink them down to save room? It's a question for people who actually got the book, MLaw, what do you think?
3. What would you like to see considering graphic material? As many examples with graphic representaion? or just where it's really needed?
4. Any other stuff that you would like to see, let me know.
We'll post a thred in the dakka Game Design subforum as soon as I finish the new pdf.
From a designers standpoint, use standardized format it helps cut down costs a lot as it does not need custom tooling and does not create waste paper.
While it has been passed in the collective consciousness that small font type and serifs make the text more "adult or important" (in reality because it saves space and makes books cheaper) reality is 12 points type font and sans serif are ideal for reading especially as the age grows.
I do not understand 3, but if the question how many pictures for examples one should have the answer is as many as possible, pictures can save paragraphs of text, but they must be correctly constructed.
As for 4 I am not sure one can really comment without looking at a working draft of the rules.
Looking forward seen you in the Game Design subforum.
Honestly I wouldn't worry too much about graphic material until the rules are more in a finalized format. Once those are more concise, then it becomes easier to do. First you add graphics for diagrams for clarity and in places that the concept is harder to give without a visual representation. The rest of the graphics are really added to give ambiance to certain parts of the book. Then additional images depends on if you need something to fill space to move paragraphs around so spacing isn't weird.
For example if you are finishing a Chapter but the left page upper column stops at one paragraph. There is a lot of wasted space on the page. It is sometimes weird to start a new Chapter on that page, so it would be moved to the right page. Then you add graphics to places within the first Chapter so that eventually that 3/4 empty page is full. It doesn't mean just add a graphic to that page, but to other parts causing text to shift around to fill spaces. Does that make sense?
1. Would you rather get a standard A4 format rulebook? I could fit more on the page.
2. Are the examples are too big? Could I shrink them down to save room? It's a question for people who actually got the book, MLaw, what do you think?
3. What would you like to see considering graphic material? As many examples with graphic representaion? or just where it's really needed?
4. Any other stuff that you would like to see, let me know.
We'll post a thred in the dakka Game Design subforum as soon as I finish the new pdf.
I do not like 8-point font, but I understand if you are doing an A5 format "free" rulebook. If this is the case, I'd still like to see a 9-point minimum font size for readability. Really, you should not go smaller than the text on a Magic : the Gathering card. That should be considered the absolute minimum font size for any game, and rules text should be at least a half point larger yet again, since you're not limited to a tiny box on a 2.5" x 3.5" playing card.
1. Standard A4 format books / pamphlets are ideal; however you should not look to fit more on the page. You should look to enlarge the standard font size to 12 points on 1.15 spacing so that people can more easily read it, with an 11 point minimum for notes and such. 2 column layout on most rules pages.
2. Examples should be large enough so that people can read and see what they are. If it needs to be a quarter page, make it so!
3. I'm not sure what this question asks.
4. I like to see overall organization of core rules / background / force selection so that each section stands on its own.
ShockworkStudio_Michael wrote: Hey Guys. Sorry for not commenting but we spend whole night with Shane working on the rulebook. Shane will post his thoughts as well soon. All of your feedback is taken seriously and it's helping to shape this game to what we wanted it to be.
I want to ask you some questions from a graphic designer perspective.
Right now the rulebook is a 14x18,2 cm format (5,6 x 7,5 inch) using 8 point font size.
1. Would you rather get a standard A4 format rulebook? I could fit more on the page.
2. Are the examples are too big? Could I shrink them down to save room? It's a question for people who actually got the book, MLaw, what do you think?
3. What would you like to see considering graphic material? As many examples with graphic representaion? or just where it's really needed?
4. Any other stuff that you would like to see, let me know.
We'll post a thred in the dakka Game Design subforum as soon as I finish the new pdf.
1. Was the copy I saw using 8 point because if so.. it's either that typeface or the resolution or something else.. the text was massive. This resulted in sections stretching over many pages making just reading about how to move a matter of flipping pages. Try to format in a way that the main idea for the mechanic the unit is based on are contained within a page or two if possible. Then if explanations or elaborations are required, that part can go past.
2. The graphic examples are in fact very large. Using detailed 3d renderings for the graphics and trying to preserve every detail in those is not serving the actual purpose of those images. Simplify what's in the graphics so you can reduce them without creating a visually busy graphic. The ideas they're explaining aren't always that complex and some of the graphics felt repetitive. Check the text and make sure you've simplified the concepts before applying graphics.
3. Well.. two things on this. IF you're going to have illustrations.. include the placeholders (usually just a big rectangle with an X and a bit of description about what the graphic will be). This helps you get the formatting without having to deal with the art side. Don't go overboard. If you've had a few pages without anything but text.. yeah.. break that up a little. If you have 4 images on a 2 page spread.. maybe look at what's really necessary for that section. I do graphic design work and illustration (for comics as well as miniature companies) and when you get there we can work something out if you need.. though it does look like you have staff that's capable of this already. As far as graphics for explaining complex materials.. On that, I think using vector graphics that are simplified versions of the actual models is the way to go. This means, clear printing but also.. people looking at a PDF can zoom in and out and the image should retain all of it's detail.
4. Organization is the big thing again. In my mind, start at the base level of explaining the simplest of mechanics.. Line of sight, movement, measuring. Then the unit card. The unit card will lead to discussion about stats. That's a good intro to the basics of combat and perhaps an opening for a tutorial session for a combat turn or something. This gets largely into the philosophy of how you guys want to present this.. and it's your baby just make sure that there is a flow to how everything is presented. Something as an artist and even as a writer that I do pretty often is look at what's out there. Reference other material for a sense of direction. Don't rip them off.. but learn from their approach and make decisions from an informed standpoint. Stabbing in the dark and hoping for a few brave souls (who .. I might be the only one who has read the rules..) to offer help.. that will only take you so far. Crack open some books from Gates of Antares, Gruntz, 40k, Infinity, Void (it's a free download from Scotia Grendel), Warmachine, etc. Look at who they format. How they use graphics. The ways they use tables and charts. There is usually a rhyme and reason.
Finally.. there was a lot of talk here about streamline, complex, rp or tabletop wargame, etc. I also have preferences but IMO, follow your vision. As an artist, one thing I've learned (through hard knocks no less) is that your audience/customer doesn't always know what they want. Very often they think they want one thing until you show them what you actually have. Remember that people's perception only exists based on what they know or expect. The call for a super compact ruleset might not be the vision or dream you guys have.. if it's not.. remember that it's your vision. Having said that, I would urge you to aim for elegance. IF it's not a fast play type game, then make sure it's elegant in concept, flow, design, and presentation so that people have as few barriers to play as possible.
MLaw wrote: Finally.. there was a lot of talk here about streamline, complex, rp or tabletop wargame, etc. I also have preferences but IMO, follow your vision. As an artist, one thing I've learned (through hard knocks no less) is that your audience/customer doesn't always know what they want. Very often they think they want one thing until you show them what you actually have. Remember that people's perception only exists based on what they know or expect. The call for a super compact ruleset might not be the vision or dream you guys have.. if it's not.. remember that it's your vision. Having said that, I would urge you to aim for elegance. IF it's not a fast play type game, then make sure it's elegant in concept, flow, design, and presentation so that people have as few barriers to play as possible.
The push for conciseness is coming from me, specifically, because I have noticed that conciseness tends to correlate pretty strongly with clarity and simplification, which makes it a lot easier for me to pick up and teach someone new. I have seen multiple games with nice minis that I passed or stopped playing because the rules and mechanics were too clunky. I have focused on simpler games that become a joy for the ease of setup and play.
If the true vision is for something grander, that is fine, but be sure that everything supports that vision. Usually, a big chunk can be culled so that the vision becomes clearer. There is a tendency for rules to bloat, because it is generally easier to add stuff than to make decisions over which items to keep. If there are two (or more!) similar things, just pick the "best" one and re-use it. It is very rare that one needs to distinguish something as fine-grained as .40 cal from 10mm in a gaming context. Heck, in most cases, one won't even have to distinguish a .22LR pistol from a Desert Eagle. If it's going to be big, then organization and presentation becomes even more important.
JohnHwangDD - Sorry if it came across as a criticism of your call for conciseness. My message to them was, if that fits in their vision.. great.. run with that. If not.. don't try to make it that.
I agree with what your saying for what it's worth. Infinity looks super cool to me but every time I try to read the rules for it my eyes roll back into my skull and I start drooling down my chin.
That's kind of why I said no matter what, strive for elegance. Something can be complex but if it's handled gracefully, it flows so smoothly that the complexity is diminished by how logically everything flows together.
I didn't take it as a criticism of any sort, no apology necessary. I just wanted everyone to be clear that this was just my single lone voice speaking for myself, rather than some formal representative of a larger movement. The extent to which they're looking for backers like me will determine the extent to which they incorporate my suggestions going forward. And as always, if they can communicate the rules in an elegant and graceful way, then that would be fantastic.
Hi everyone.
Thanks for being patient with us as we try to get feedback from everyone and give some true thought to things.
So far all the feedback even if a little negative has been really good for us. We’ve taken a little more time to look over how we’ve presented the project and is maybe we’ve tried to cram too much in all at once making the format a bit hard to understand as far as the rules are concerned as well as the KS itself.
We’ve decided with heavy heart to delay the Project for a little while we regroup and take all of this in. as of right now the KS has been reformatted and we are deciding on a final layout.
The book has been revamped with a lot of things removed or simply relocated to other aspects of the game. Really the feedback has helped us so much and we thank each and every one of you for it.
I’m positive the time we take will end with a better product. It was a real eye opener.
As a creator we tend to become so entwined in our creations we take it for granted that other will see and understand “our” vision (rules, designs etc.) Sometimes it’s better to introduce this vision in smaller, more comprehensible pieces instead of trying to pack 10lbs of in a 5 lbs bag…
Knowing this now we've made some very positive changes and I'm even happy with the direction.
Please if you have other thought or question we are here…
Hey Shane, sorry it came across as negative. It was always meant as constructive criticism... so please don't take it personally. The fact that people are putting energy into posting should show you guys that you're in a ball field people are looking to play on, you just gotta get your vision a bit more clear before we can do it
Keep in mind Shane, that a lot of times gamers don't know what they want until you give it to them. Or rather, they think they want something too close to what they already have.
Here's something important to remember, and a point towards trying to keep things a little different:
40k, Infinity, Dark Age, etc... they all already exist and have existed for a long time. If you try to be like them, you won't be getting their audience, you'll just be something that isn't that game and why would anyone bother switching?
Sure, refine the rules for clarity and game flow, but try to keep what makes your game unique and you will find players if the quality is there otherwise. You already have miniatures that are of a good enough quality that you won't have trouble getting people to buy.
Yes other games have failed and they were different, but I look at them and see that most of them tried too hard to be just like the others in a big way.
Infinity, on the other hand, had abysmal rules translations and questionable early sculpts, but they've made it pretty big over time.
MLaw wrote: Hey Shane, sorry it came across as negative. It was always meant as constructive criticism... so please don't take it personally. The fact that people are putting energy into posting should show you guys that you're in a ball field people are looking to play on, you just gotta get your vision a bit more clear before we can do it
Looking forward to it!
None of it was personal. There was even input on design ideas and people going back and forth about gorilla arms on a Ulysses. Now i want to see what it'd look like even if it breaks the Design Style of the North American Union.
I was thinking a Character Mech maybe some gear head drug runner mech for higher from Sinaloa...
Which leads me to
Vertrucio wrote: Keep in mind Shane, that a lot of times gamers don't know what they want until you give it to them. Or rather, they think they want something too close to what they already have.
Here's something important to remember, and a point towards trying to keep things a little different:
40k, Infinity, Dark Age, etc... they all already exist and have existed for a long time. If you try to be like them, you won't be getting their audience, you'll just be something that isn't that game and why would anyone bother switching?
Sure, refine the rules for clarity and game flow, but try to keep what makes your game unique and you will find players if the quality is there otherwise. You already have miniatures that are of a good enough quality that you won't have trouble getting people to buy.
Yes other games have failed and they were different, but I look at them and see that most of them tried too hard to be just like the others in a big way.
Infinity, on the other hand, had abysmal rules translations and questionable early sculpts, but they've made it pretty big over time.
Thank you so very much for those words.
BlackRain: Alpha Strain is a very cool project. We didn't change anything from a design perspective. We just took a look at a better way to present it.
After the feedback Michal and Myself spent a few days (15+ hour) rewriting/editing the original Doc.
Michals also adding more picture examples of rules explanations we both feel this would really help the learning process as someone mentioned. [who?]
All the big game companies had to go through there birth pains too.
Heres the crazy part... I want to make the coolest games ever. I want you guys to all play them and I want it to be the footprint I leave. Thats why we brought it here in all of its bloody cyberpunk glory. You guys can help us make this game -
It will be interesting to see how the feedback shaped the project.
I have to ask a few details, what is the vision of the project? what is the size? squad based, platoon based? , what do you think is the "eye catching" aspect of it?
As a general advice the following things are considered helpful for kickstarter projects, rules in a good but not necessarily complete state, physical models shots of prototypes (I see you added one of those with a ruler, nice), comparison shots with models of other ranges and a clean layout of the pledges and streachgoals that is clear on what each includes and a good introductory video that is short and points out the key points of why the project is awesome.
As a personal advice I would give the following, reevaluate your shipping, even consider a tiered shipping, big projects can offset expensive international shipping but even those have reverted to more practical shipping, plan a cut off point if the project becomes a runaway success, see what you can deliver and don't get tempted to add more, don't do ala cart, it may generate a few more pledges, but the logistics will cost more than you will gain, Zhendu A is problematic, too problematic, most will not see a cool dynamic pose they will see a model with just one small contact point and an easy to break model, if you do not want to change it, don't have it as a "poster boy" model, the renders are on non standard bases, if these are not the bases you intent to supply change them on the bases you intent to supply, if these are the bases you intent supplying there better be a good gameplay reason for the extra cost it will cost you over getting standard normal bases from a supplier, bigger pictures of the test prints and test sculpts, nothing says more "I am confident" than showing big pictures, a few more test casts would be nice to have too, don't be afraid to delay the project a couple of months.
I would also advice you to see a few vids and blogs about kickstarter, Dicetower has a series of videos centered around business from some designers and publishers than can give some impact,Jamey Stegmaier from Stonemaier games has extended articles and resources on crowdfunding which can be useful and the series of articles on beasts of war from shattered earth and how their preparation translated in reality can give valuable hindsight.
As always, if you want, come to the game design subforum for feedback on your game, which can be for more than just the rules.
Looking forward to this Kickstarter! It would be better to focus on getting the miniatures out first and refining the ruleset later, since it's the miniatures that people want.
Looking good.. I'm hoping the UNAS mech's pose is just a placeholder though. Otherwise, very excited. If you're running a revised alpha let me know and I'll give it another dive.
I didn't think so but thought I would double check Arguably, the mech in the upper left of the group shot does look like he's ready to hug me.. with stubby arms and giant guns but still
New rulebook version to download, new cards. If you are interested in the gameplay of BlackRain: Alpha Strain, leave a feedback in that new topic, please.
Rulebook is 32 pages now (raw text, without the cover), alot of stuff has been deleted, more simplified. Same with Model's cards. We really hope you'll like it! Very soon I'm gonna prepare a Quick Start Rules Set as well.
Looks like I'm backer #1. That's a first for me. Good luck guys, I hope this does well. Hopefully you can get some additional promotion on other sites as well.
Thanks for the support. Spread the word.
We really hope this grabs everyones interest. Tell someone, make a Facebook post, tweet it. Just let someone else know
ShockworkStudio_Shane wrote: We really hope this grabs everyones interest. Tell someone, make a Facebook post, tweet it. Just let someone else know
I'll see what I can do in my feeds
Really only interested in the Zadruga myself, though I am quite interested in them Would be all about more Kali sculpts / armaments as well, though I've a thing for gals with multiple arms
Kali is the epitome of Preta Class UNAS Forward Observers. So They'll be more of this in the future.
It was a long conversation about what 2 forces to focus our initial energy on. NAU was a given, but Zadruga or UNAS ended up becoming the focal points for second army.
The Monsters are Bukavac they are the Wartime "pets" of the Zadruga. ATV Hunting units. Enmass they can drag a large mech to the ground.
This is roughly the correct size when compared to its Zadruga master
Check our gallery.
If by mini Metal Gear you mean the Ulysses cool. Its a sweet easy to build on multipurpose frame. We already have 4 variations. The Sidewinder, Cottonmouth, Diamondback, and Bushmaster. Calls for Magnets IMHO.
You made the correct choice for the first 2 forces.
Also, the pets are a lot smaller than I had expected (the KS pics have it 5' at the shoulder). While a 10,000 Megatherium would have been an awesome basis, I was at least thinking 2,000 lb Kodiak bear-sized, as a living equivalent of a mech. Oh, well, I'll keep watching.
Giant Sloth... Sick.
Zadruga make use of genetically engineered animals and them using much larger creatures is already in the works. We are kicking around the idea if mounted Dead Winter.
We have so many things in the works for BlackRain. Funding is very important. Kickstarter truly was created for companies like ours.
I can't express how important your support is. Please continue to spread the word
Has the word gone out on facebook about this campaign, I feel like it needs more traction? There's also someone I can point you to on Beasts of War that might do something for it.
I wish you good luck, but... I won't pledge... :( (see below why)
Here's my feedback...
What I like
- some infantries/characters design
- Zadruga! (but not the dogs...)
- the narrative and atmosphere
- alternative weapon and bits kit for every faction
What I don't like
- resin instead of metal
- mecha (I love landmates, and instead I see remix of the Battletech "Rifleman")
- dice based game system
It's of course a matter of taste. Unfortunately, for me, Black Rain is a mix of positive and negative aspects, where resin was decisive. "Human Interface" (which I actually bought) comes in metal, why don't you?...
That said, again, good luck. Some of the infantries look really beautiful, some are simply amazing. You are a talented team with strong creative energy and I want you to succeed!
If you are ever to make some limited edition metal miniatures, I'll pick some.
michel3105 wrote: What I don't like
- resin instead of metal
- mecha (I love landmates, and instead I see remix of the Battletech "Rifleman")
- dice based game system
Metal vs resin are subjective and mixed opinions depending on the person. I can understand the preference.
You really see a Rifleman? None of these designs look remotely like a Rifleman so I find that rather strange but ok.
What non-diced based miniature games are there out there that are popular?
@JohnHwang I'm attached to metal, especially for sturdiness. Protruding parts in resin tend to break so easily. Last I broke was a sniper rifle barrel... exactly from MaxMini... yay!...
@Alpharius Mine is not exactly hate... It's more a kind of lack of interest and excitation for yet another dice based skirmish system. Cards have more potential.
Burning Games made a very interesting and innovative card based RPG.
But, back to cyberpunk miniature games, Human Interface also uses cards... We will see if they are put on good use when the time comes to play it...
ShockworkStudio_Shane wrote: @michel3105
Did you come to Dakka from the Infinity forums just to bash our product?
Why all the very negitive from Infinity fans?
Shane, why you say so?!
First of all, I don't "come from the Infinity forum"... It's not my homeland, ok?...
As for my opinion about Black Rain, how can you call it "bashing"?
I was the one to post its kickstarter on data-sphere immediately after I saw the news on tabletopgamingnews, a thing that I would have never done if something about Black Rain didn't impress be positively. I said that it's an interesting project, I honestly wrote why I personally wouldn't pledge and stated what I think it's cool and what I think it isn't about it.
http://www.data-sphere.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=51&start=360
Then, I saw that in dakka the discussion was more lively, and came here to say exactly the same things I said on data-sphere and to confront myself with the other members of the forum. I just stated my opinions (including the positive ones), and did it politely, so how can you call it "bashing"? I even said that if there's a limited run in metal of some miniatures, I would buy them.
I'm sorry if you thought that I was somewhat attacking Black Rain. If it's so, I beg you and all the team behind Black Rain to accept my apologize, but, please, read my posts again and evaluate if they are really... "bashing"...
Finally, as for your last question, there's no way I know the answer, I just vouch for myself only.
I noticed those last night.
srsly??? When you get into the armory that's where the modifiers go into high gear.. There's like 3 or four pages of ammo types that all have different effects. There's psychology but the section on that is also in the section that describes how to start playing the game so .. I dunno.. MOvement.. basically = modifiers. I think movement is interesting because it does take into consideration "how" you're moving so that's cool but more modifiers.. There's where we get into some crazy special move type stuff that seems very very RPGish. It honestly reminds me a bit of Warmachine but more involved. Then you get into a basic action phase, a ranged combat phase, cover which is more modifiers, melee, and then.. the section that caught me a bit off guard.. Classes. It's not very long and doesn't actually clarify what they are. Then we have damage (10s are crit fails and 1s are crit hits or damage according to the book...???).
in a 5 lbs bag…
