My son who plays lizardmen is absolutely horrified by what they did. I would have thought they could have used the opportunity to make a positive change, maybe no more aztec lizards, make them something more AoS'y? I am just hoping my vamps dont get similar treatment, but from what I have seen so far (and its not too much yet) AoS is on track to continue to half ass everything.
I play Lizardmen in Mordheim and the fluff for them back then was great. So many miscommunication errors, heaps of odd customs and so on made them so alien to the other factions that it was perfect for interesting and sometimes funny encounters.
I tried getting into warhammer with them but the fluff portrayed the new Lizardmen as dying and crumbling (lame) and then they flew away in space ships.
So what do I think of them now? Well they certainly are nowhere near as interesting as their mordheim equivalents. I think the new fluff is not very "sensible" in terms of making much sense.
This is one I always remember which is why I liked Lizardmen to begin with back in the day:
I believe the humorous tale of the purposeful mistranslation was actually when Marco Colombo was brought to a Slann. They were speaking Bretonnian, which the Skink knew a little of, and Marco as well.
Marco was proposing an alliance where he'd protect the shores, trade, etc. The Slann just kept smiling and such - when Marco finally inquired WTF was being said, the Skink said he's just telling him how good he looks, how his jewels are awesome, how mighty his city is, etc.
The Skink diplomat justified the farce by stating the Slann are far too superior to bother with such petty and trivial matters such as trade, and wasting their cosmos-spanning thoughts on Marco's concerns wouldn't happen. In the end, the Skink brokered the deal for additional security to their shores, and in return they'd provide an 'endless supply of worthless beads' to the humans that Marco saw them using for their abacuses (See: The largest most perfect pearls a human could hope to ever lay eyes on, which the Lizardmen were in the habit of disposing of in the hundreds each day).
Many humans in the expedition built entire dynasties off of these pearls when brought back to the Old World.
The above is not the actual story since it's a pain to fin but someone on dakka retold it. But to me, in that small paragraph we got more information on how the Lizardmen think and feel etc compared to the new vague fluff.
Fluff wise, for me they just don't compare for me. I guess they kind of feel like faceless mooks now. Although I have hardly read much into it since it's not something I can get into.
I kind of like the fluff direction. They retreated to the stars in the End Times, and they are a race that once walked the mortal world but now live in some sort of star heaven. They're still defenders of the mortal worlds, but are beings of the past. It's kind of neat to see a race ascend into daemon/angel-hood.
Nice to get a couple price drops on the boxes but I agree the Saurus Warriors are way too static. Too much finecast in the character range is a turnoff.
The Lizardmen are my favorite army from WFB and in AOS I like the new/updated background story. I do like the variety of colors they painted them and how saturated they are, but I'm pretty disappointed that they didn't get new models. I remember reading somewhere that a rep from Gamesworkshop said that the new races weren't going to look like the old ones when they finally got around to rolling them out. I guess that's changed. I know the Seraphon have modifications such as the op said in terms of them having galaxies swirling around in their weapons, but couldn't there armor look like that too? Or them in general? I wanted something different and updated. By updated I meant the models.
I don't like a majority of the old models, especially the Kroxigor. A 3D modeler felt the same way and sculpted and produced his own models and this was more in line of the quality I was expecting from the " New " Lizardmen.
I guess I was hoping for too much, but I'm still remaining optimistic, since from a lore perspective it does make sense that it's possible they wouldn't look too different, but I have to say if all the other " New" races just get color changes and repacks; I'm done with AOS. Which is a shame because I love the Stormcast Eternals and the new Khorne Models.
They could have at least taken the opportunity to update the Saurus models, those things are ancient.
Yeah but if you hold it against GW every time they rebox an old army instead of updating them with new models that fit the new AoS aesthetics and fluff they are going for we're all going to be here complaining for a very long time.
They could have at least taken the opportunity to update the Saurus models, those things are ancient.
Yeah but if you hold it against GW every time they rebox an old army instead of updating them with new models that fit the new AoS aesthetics and fluff they are going for we're all going to be here complaining for a very long time.
They could have at least taken the opportunity to update the Saurus models, those things are ancient.
Yeah but if you hold it against GW every time they rebox an old army instead of updating them with new models that fit the new AoS aesthetics and fluff they are going for we're all going to be here complaining for a very long time.
Well the question was asked what I think of the new Lizards... I was just answering As my user name might suggest, I am a fan of Lizardmen. My opinion of the Seraphon is that they are in new boxes with round bases, an expensive book, Saurus models need an update and "Seraphon" is a stupid name. That may be the commentary of all armies over the next year or so... but the question was asked so I answered.
I'm not sure what Seraphon is supposed to mean... "phon" = sounds, "Sera" = kinda like Saura? So Seraphon = Sounds a bit like Saurapod? I dunno
I think the name is supposed to be 'Seraph' - an angelic being, and the '-on' suffix is supposed to simply be GW's usual pseudo Latin style or a throwback to the dinosaur sounding naming conventions.
I'm new to the game and Seraphon are frontrunners to be my first army after the starter set. My suggestion would be selling the book at a much lower price point.
I mean as a new player I had no idea models were cheap to make until I read about it online, but an $83 AUD book is obviously expensive. It also makes the low barrier to entry, which was the biggest selling point for me, a lot less appealing.
I can't say anything until the book hits. Their alien aspect was very interesting (akin to the dragonewts of Glorantha which may be the prototype of this behavour, seeing how GW used to make minis for Glorantha) because the people of the old world had to deal with them at some point - there was no escaping their strangeness. I'm kind of wary that their strangeness will morph into mysteriousness and they'll just fly off the battlefield once their work is done - kind of boring... But hey, it is a new game - they have to come up with something new and after the old world anything will look at least a little silly to older players, in the beginning .
Makes Sigmar look like a bit of an ass when both the Stormcast and Seraphon teleport into battle, but once it's over only the Seraphon get to teleport away again and the Stormcast have to walk home instead, haha
For me I have to wait until the book comes out - to me, Seraphon have a chariot of the gods feel - they aren't incorporeal or summoned into existence, they live in spaceships and get teleported to where they're needed.
But that's just my interpretation of what I've read so far.
The images from the book tell that beneath the skin seraphon have only azyryte energy - no blood, muscles or flesh whatsoever. This leads me to think that Slann "cloth" them in corporeal bodies to fight. I think that they do not live as mortal beings do but exist as mythological entities between the stars or are acually represented by the stars themselves - the way Gloranthian deities live in their Mythological realm and are represented by celestial bodies. This would be in lime with the overall feeling of the setting.
Would have been cool if their space ships had some kind of auto pilot and they ended up in a planet from the old ones which had another society of Lizardmen. They found plans closer to the old ones will and then using their new space ships and a new selection of spawning pools along with a stronger force with their new numbers they come back to try finish the plan on the realms.
It's playing on some pretty bad ideas but it would certainly be cooler than god lizards. Maybe the new Lizard Society could be a different aesthetic altogether. We could essentially have 2 styles of Lizardmen that can mix and match along with further options regarding gods etc.
Ultimately it's kinda odd for a fantasy, but I would prefer it that way.
Kilkrazy wrote: If I'm honest, I just don't like the new celestial realms fluff. It doesn't give me anything to care about or connect with.
I have to agree with that. The whole idea of 'good demons' I find very unimaginative and just lacking, the same way I feel the immortal superhumans created by a god to fight his wars are. It's just... boring.
Kilkrazy wrote: If I'm honest, I just don't like the new celestial realms fluff. It doesn't give me anything to care about or connect with.
I have to agree with that. The whole idea of 'good demons' I find very unimaginative and just lacking, the same way I feel the immortal superhumans created by a god to fight his wars are. It's just... boring.
"But they're Seraphs.. Good demons... They're Angels! Get it!
When the book hits (many of) our questions will be answered.
My concern at the moment is that when I look at the models, I think Aztec Lizards and don't really see the through line to what they are in AoS now. If the book answers that, I will be golden. If not... well, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
I'll set some time aside this Friday afternoon to read the book properly and do a review...
I couldn't wait a week. I picked up White Dwarf yesterday to find out more about them but it only left me with more questions haha
From the White Dwarf, the reason the models still look Aztec-y is because they are conjured from the memories of the Slann.
I see the aesthetic changes to AoS coming at a similar speed to 3rd Edition 40k. If you think back to the rulebook the Tyranids were all just the 2nd Edition models with an updated colour scheme. Come mid 3rd edition they finally got a model range reboot.
One area I think it will differ though is, I think we will never see a plastic kit get replaced again with an updated version. Kits will eventually be replaced by different kits (I.e. new models entirely) or a dual kit that can make both a new and old unit.
Bottle wrote: I couldn't wait a week. I picked up White Dwarf yesterday to find out more about them but it only left me with more questions haha
From the White Dwarf, the reason the models still look Aztec-y is because they are conjured from the memories of the Slann.
I see the aesthetic changes to AoS coming at a similar speed to 3rd Edition 40k. If you think back to the rulebook the Tyranids were all just the 2nd Edition models with an updated colour scheme. Come mid 3rd edition they finally got a model range reboot.
One area I think it will differ though is, I think we will never see a plastic kit get replaced again with an updated version. Kits will eventually be replaced by different kits (I.e. new models entirely) or a dual kit that can make both a new and old unit.
So, that's the excuse they used to keep the current model range up and running... If that is so... will the Aelfs be vaguely mythical beings conjured from Tyrion and Teclis' memories aswell?
This reasoning can be applied to every faction... and kinda makes the fluff even worse.
Yep, it would be terrible, but judging from the compendiums where Seraphon are the only race of Order than can be summoned onto the battlefield, it seems very unlikely any other race will have the same excuse.
...the others are just historical reenactment enthusiasts from Sigmaron who suddenly find themselves thrust into real battle. :p
Knowing GW, they will use the "Elves don't like new gak" card and we'll see how Tyrion and Teclis shaped their realm into a perfect copy of how Ulthuan was... and everything is just like it was in the Old World.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Knowing GW, they will use the "Elves don't like new gak" card and we'll see how Tyrion and Teclis shaped their realm into a perfect copy of how Ulthuan was... and everything is just like it was in the Old World.
It will be interesting to see how the fluff writers explain away the Space Magic Slann creating magical golem warriors that look like Aztec Lizard Men riding dinosaurs.
If you like the Lizard Man visual design, though, I shouldn't worry about the fluff explanation.
After reading the books I really enjoy the setting immensly. The different realms remind me of the craziness and epic scale of Greek mythology. Gigantic serpents in the sky spewing silver rivers that solidify at night, floating sentient island with waterfalls that tumble down hundreds of meters to the surface, deserts of iron oxide... it's gone on from High Fantasy to Mythic Fantasy, and I love it. Reminds me of the Death Gate novels, which I love. The fluff just has so much potential, if they could just move on from the Sigmarines and focus some of the books on the other races.
You can't do ultra-bombastic stuff like that in a normal setting so one should come up with a totally over epic one so stuff like this doesn't look stupid. How else the writers could reasonably write about a thing like an endless bridge made of birds chained together above witch hangs a gravity distorting moon? Hmm? I'm actually interested what GW has prepared for the other races
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Knowing GW, they will use the "Elves don't like new gak" card and we'll see how Tyrion and Teclis shaped their realm into a perfect copy of how Ulthuan was... and everything is just like it was in the Old World.
Bottle wrote: White Dwarf seems to suggest both, as they are born on beams of celestial light and are undying, and yet there are "Old Bloods" and mention of cohorts "awaiting" the call of their masters.
Why does everything have to be infinite and/or undying? It kind of takes any risk out of any battle, and means there's essentially no outcome. Just eternal war, with no strategy or tactics. I mean a general really should try and keep his troops alive, but why would he bother doing that in AoS if they are either infinite (Chaos) or immortal (Sigmarines, Lizardmen).
Bottle wrote: White Dwarf seems to suggest both, as they are born on beams of celestial light and are undying, and yet there are "Old Bloods" and mention of cohorts "awaiting" the call of their masters.
Why does everything have to be infinite and/or undying? It kind of takes any risk out of any battle, and means there's essentially no outcome. Just eternal war, with no strategy or tactics. I mean a general really should try and keep his troops alive, but why would he bother doing that in AoS if they are either infinite (Chaos) or immortal (Sigmarines, Lizardmen).
The sense of loss that ruled over FB was kinda thrown away with AoS (deliberately so, I think). Can't have warriors that really die now, can we?
I also think that this is GW adding what they think makes 40k cool - eternal war. The thing is, where the 40k setting has untold trillions of bodies to push to the fore to give the "eternal" feel to it, there is no such thing in the AoS universe with its 9 realms. So they pop up armies of undying warriors.
What GW fails to see, though, is that the eternal war factor is not the main drive behind 40k's popularity.
Bottle wrote: White Dwarf seems to suggest both, as they are born on beams of celestial light and are undying, and yet there are "Old Bloods" and mention of cohorts "awaiting" the call of their masters.
Why does everything have to be infinite and/or undying? It kind of takes any risk out of any battle, and means there's essentially no outcome. Just eternal war, with no strategy or tactics. I mean a general really should try and keep his troops alive, but why would he bother doing that in AoS if they are either infinite (Chaos) or immortal (Sigmarines, Lizardmen).
It is because AoS seems to be very clearly a wargame setting, not a setting setting. They have not really put any thought into expanding into the day to day life of the average person. It is not a setting you can run an RPG in, or write non war-porn books about. Sadly 40k is going the same way and apparently BL are trying to ignore Abnetts stuff with the Inquisitors that showed off much more of the depth and day to day life of the setting.
It's really sad the way GW's fluff writing and BL books seem to be heading really
Actually, I was thinking that if the elves show up again and they are not broadly the same as before, you have to make a post on these forums and say that you are a sour puss and grumpy face
If they are the same, I have to post, oh I don't know, that I can't play Warhammer and I know nothing about games
Actually, I was thinking that if the elves show up again and they are not broadly the same as before, you have to make a post on these forums and say that you are a sour puss and grumpy face
If they are the same, I have to post, oh I don't know, that I can't play Warhammer and I know nothing about games
Allow me.
I am a sour puss and a grumpy pants PLUS I can't play Warhammer and I know nothing about games
Bottle wrote: White Dwarf seems to suggest both, as they are born on beams of celestial light and are undying, and yet there are "Old Bloods" and mention of cohorts "awaiting" the call of their masters.
Why does everything have to be infinite and/or undying? It kind of takes any risk out of any battle, and means there's essentially no outcome. Just eternal war, with no strategy or tactics. I mean a general really should try and keep his troops alive, but why would he bother doing that in AoS if they are either infinite (Chaos) or immortal (Sigmarines, Lizardmen).
It is because AoS seems to be very clearly a wargame setting, not a setting setting. They have not really put any thought into expanding into the day to day life of the average person. It is not a setting you can run an RPG in, or write non war-porn books about. Sadly 40k is going the same way and apparently BL are trying to ignore Abnetts stuff with the Inquisitors that showed off much more of the depth and day to day life of the setting.
It's really sad the way GW's fluff writing and BL books seem to be heading really
But you can write a purely wargaming background whilst still allowing some element of risk. They seem to have deliberately taken all of the excitement out of it to placate the fluff players?
I mean, why couldn't the Seraph remain a dying race that lives on the fringes of a world taken over by chaos, but can summon the powers of their primative gods via sacrifice in order to drive the evil from what remains of their realms? Sure they'll likely fail in the long run, but at least they have a chance of delaying the outcome a bit in the hopes that their gods will come back and save them.
Currently, if they are magic immortals zapped into battle by the power of the Slann to fight an endless foe, why are the Slann even wasting their time on such a futile action instead of creating a new world to live on in peace. What's their motivation?
Hell, at this stage you can just about steal the plot from the Care Bears and change the Bears names to Seraph characters and get a deeper plot.
Ehhh, their fluff is interesting, but a lot of the GW recoloring has left me unimpressed. They just look like Skittles colored Lizardmen, there doesn't seem to be any flourish to match their new "star-worldly" lore. Also, new models or even some star/space decals would have been amazing.
You know I actually always hated the way GW did the whole 'dying race' thing. They overuse it and never actually show their 'dying' races in real danger of going extinct.
Eldar are a dying race, but still seem to be going strong with plenty of craftworlds floating safely in space, a reasonable population that as far as I can tell had no issues reproducing, and the ability to choose most of their battles with their elite soldiers.
Lizardmen were a dying race, who lived alone in a jungle with no one really at war with them, trying to wipe them out, etc. Again, a lack of reproduction problems too as far as I was aware.
High Elves were a dying race too iirc, but again no real explanation why other than they were the dominate power and aren't any more. That seems to be a consistent theme with GW, where a 'dying' just means 'our empire isn't as strong as it was'.
I prefer the way the Iosian elves are done in the Iron Kingdoms when looking at 'dying races'. Their gods entered the mortal realm and for a while everything was great. Then the began losing their powers and dying off around the same time humans developed magic. There are theories that humans (or a human god) stole magic from the elves and that is what is killing them. As well elves have begun being born without souls. This leads to a situation where the elves have a terrorist organization gaining popularity and essentially taking over as the official military after some significant successes. They have groups both trying to study and understand human magic in order to see if they can prove humans stole their magic, and assassins who specialize in killing mages, hoping that will save their gods. Their leaders have looked at the situation and come to the conclusion that the elven race may have as little as two hundred years left, but they are not just waiting for the end to come, they are doing everything they can to stop it, including having one of the more prominent undead bad guys in the setting who used to be an elf plotting to enter their city and slay the god they have comatose in a temple there in the hopes of sending them back to heaven and saving his former people.
Has anyone else noticed that GW appears to really like this 'teleport into battle' theme? It's cool when Space Marines do it, so I guess the Sigmarines should logically be able to do it...Lizardmen too, now...
I'm going to be highly amused if the AoS version of dwarfs have some kind of mechanical portal network. Maybe give them steampunk-style dreadnaughts, too, so they can shrug off people getting killed as well.
Mymearan wrote: After reading the books I really enjoy the setting immensly. The different realms remind me of the craziness and epic scale of Greek mythology. Gigantic serpents in the sky spewing silver rivers that solidify at night, floating sentient island with waterfalls that tumble down hundreds of meters to the surface, deserts of iron oxide... it's gone on from High Fantasy to Mythic Fantasy, and I love it. Reminds me of the Death Gate novels, which I love. The fluff just has so much potential, if they could just move on from the Sigmarines and focus some of the books on the other races.
Why do you think I like the audiobook series so much? They are using the stormcast properly as a way for a new user travelling to a new realm barely understanding how stuff works or wondering why the realm looks as it does. Plus that "vampire" is telling them whats up with the current realm of death and the shenanigans that occur within it that certain "vampire" would make a good story teller or maybe its just his voice actor. Plus we get a small look into the lives of mortals not under chaos in the second audiobook of the series.
The audio series has two main characters in my opinion that "vampire" and the stormcast Tarsus who I feel is actually a good character for a stormcast since in the second audiobook I really like their interactions they have. Still I really do need to get my hands on the seraphon book what you lot are talking about seems really interesting to read in higher detail.
So, I opened up the app today and noticed they've got the new name, and new names for some of the individual guys on there now. "Skink Starseer", "Slann Starmaster", and so on. Are some of these new? There's a "Saurus Astrolith Bearer" and "Saurus Eternity Warden" in there as well. Name changes confuse me so easily.
All the pictures on round bases now, as well.
Temple Guards are now Saurus Guards, which isn't anywhere near as impressive sounding.
jonolikespie wrote: I can't help but wonder how an army with Aztec themed everything is going to go living in space rather than a jungle..
Terra forming space dust into tropical jungle islands.
In this edition, Lizardmen learn that terraforming can be used for transformation of habitats...
Their space ships carry the plans that hold their technological secrets.
Wow I took a 3 year hiatus from GW and came back cause I liked fantasy but there were no players. Hoping AoS breathed some life into the local community. It hasn't, but I found that for my 9 year old boy it has been an awesome introduction into gaming. That story is just garbage. Are they really on space ships? That's the weakest gak I've ever heard, didn't realize I stepped into Warhammer Stargate. So lame. So glad I play for the gameplay and not the story.
jonolikespie wrote: I can't help but wonder how an army with Aztec themed everything is going to go living in space rather than a jungle..
Terra forming space dust into tropical jungle islands.
In this edition, Lizardmen learn that terraforming can be used for transformation of habitats...
Their space ships carry the plans that hold their technological secrets.
Wow I took a 3 year hiatus from GW and came back cause I liked fantasy but there were no players. Hoping AoS breathed some life into the local community. It hasn't, but I found that for my 9 year old boy it has been an awesome introduction into gaming. That story is just garbage. Are they really on space ships? That's the weakest gak I've ever heard, didn't realize I stepped into Warhammer Stargate. So lame. So glad I play for the gameplay and not the story.
Yea, in the end times Skaven blew up the moon ruining the Lizardmen so they had to flee in their pyramids which happened to be space ships this whole time. They now fight from space as the slann conjure up faceless hordes of ghost demon lizards.
Im sure someone can word it more nicely but that's the gist of it in my eyes.
Do we even know for sure they live on spaceships or are we assuming as much because the last we saw of them their temples where lifting off the ground and leaving the planet?
jonolikespie wrote: Do we even know for sure they live on spaceships or are we assuming as much because the last we saw of them their temples where lifting off the ground and leaving the planet?
According to OP they dwell in almost space, plus they fled in their space ships so I assume that yes they fight on in their space ships.
Did anyone else notice that there is now a Skink Starpriest as well as a Skink Priest? These two models were both listed as Skink Priests before.
Despite the name being a little dull, this actually seems like a pretty cool unit! It allows the Seraphon to have a wizard in small skirmishes where a Slann would be overpowered.
gonna just say I dont think the original warhammer story fluff was the problem...for AoS I think it is just pure garbage spewed out. Black Library has some really talented folks...maybe they need to coup the fluff dept and fix this 4th grade crap. and this from a guy who likes and plays AoS
thekingofkings wrote: gonna just say I dont think the original warhammer story fluff was the problem...for AoS I think it is just pure garbage spewed out. Black Library has some really talented folks...maybe they need to coup the fluff dept and fix this 4th grade crap. and this from a guy who likes and plays AoS
But... when the game as a whole is designed to cater to 4th graders... how do you change that?
Bottle wrote: White Dwarf seems to suggest both, as they are born on beams of celestial light and are undying, and yet there are "Old Bloods" and mention of cohorts "awaiting" the call of their masters.
Why does everything have to be infinite and/or undying? It kind of takes any risk out of any battle, and means there's essentially no outcome. Just eternal war, with no strategy or tactics. I mean a general really should try and keep his troops alive, but why would he bother doing that in AoS if they are either infinite (Chaos) or immortal (Sigmarines, Lizardmen).
I totally agree. I remember White Dwarf Daily shouting the praise of no longer having to battle on the grassy fields of Averland, and while fighting inside a volcano can be fun, they forget that those battles before really MATTERED because there was an Empire city you were protecting just beyond that grassy field.
Bottle wrote: White Dwarf seems to suggest both, as they are born on beams of celestial light and are undying, and yet there are "Old Bloods" and mention of cohorts "awaiting" the call of their masters.
Why does everything have to be infinite and/or undying? It kind of takes any risk out of any battle, and means there's essentially no outcome. Just eternal war, with no strategy or tactics. I mean a general really should try and keep his troops alive, but why would he bother doing that in AoS if they are either infinite (Chaos) or immortal (Sigmarines, Lizardmen).
I totally agree. I remember White Dwarf Daily shouting the praise of no longer having to battle on the grassy fields of Averland, and while fighting inside a volcano can be fun, they forget that those battles before really MATTERED because there was an Empire city you were protecting just beyond that grassy field.
Well, they wanted/needed to create a setting that could support war of any size at any time in any place, much like 40k. And in that, I think, they were successful. That does not mean you cannot have meaningful or well thought out and complex areas of interaction, such as a group of city states. In fact, you can have those pretty much where you like, destroy them all, and the setting will continue. In the Old World, if Middenheim was wiped off the map, it would cause issues later on. So, with this, you can have your cake and eat it.
True, these areas have not really appeared yet (maybe the Brimstone Peninsula, maybe some of the cities described in the fiction), but there is no reason such areas will not grow and become as well known to us as Altdorf or Ulthuan. We are. atfer all, just a few months into this story.
As for generals and tactics... The only infinite troops available to Chaos are the daemons, and the only risk you run in throwing them carelessly into battle is that you might annoy them. That may not be trivial. The mortal Chaos followers are, well, mortal and limited. Though a dedicated Khorne general might be happy throwing his follower's lives away if it meant more blood...
For the Stormcasts, it is not that simple. You have the idea that a great (I won't say ultimate) sacrifice can be made, throwing your 'life' away to create that beach head, slay that greater daemon, etc, that swings the battle. This could very much happen. But throwing lives away?
First, the Stormcasts are good guys, and they have friendships. Once you realise that a dying Stormcast can come back but is going to be 'less' than he was before, it will not be that easy to do to your mates. There is a price to pay for death.
However, we have already seen that, for Stormcasts, there are literally fates worse than death. At the Eternity Fortress, the Chaos Sorcerer was able to trap the souls of the Stormcasts. It did not work out so well for him, but a similar thing happened in the Hammers of Sigmar book - so, we know a Stormcast's soul can be trapped and the reforging stopped. We have also seen that Stormcasts can be corrupted beyond redemption - if a Tzeentch Sorcerer successfully casts a Bolt of Change on a Stormcast, he ain't going to be walking away from that.
As for the Seraphon, well, until we get the book in our hands, we really don't know what is happening there. It may be that we care as little for the individual Seraphon as we do a Bloodletter and instead the focus goes on the leaders and the general ethos of the Seraphon, as you might 'get into' Khorne, for example.
It is not as easy as just pushing the reset button on these guys though. There is a price to pay for death and there are far worse things that can happen to them. That is where the jeopardy lies.
Bottle wrote: White Dwarf seems to suggest both, as they are born on beams of celestial light and are undying, and yet there are "Old Bloods" and mention of cohorts "awaiting" the call of their masters.
Why does everything have to be infinite and/or undying? It kind of takes any risk out of any battle, and means there's essentially no outcome. Just eternal war, with no strategy or tactics. I mean a general really should try and keep his troops alive, but why would he bother doing that in AoS if they are either infinite (Chaos) or immortal (Sigmarines, Lizardmen).
I totally agree. I remember White Dwarf Daily shouting the praise of no longer having to battle on the grassy fields of Averland, and while fighting inside a volcano can be fun, they forget that those battles before really MATTERED because there was an Empire city you were protecting just beyond that grassy field.
Well, they wanted/needed to create a setting that could support war of any size at any time in any place, much like 40k. And in that, I think, they were successful. That does not mean you cannot have meaningful or well thought out and complex areas of interaction, such as a group of city states. In fact, you can have those pretty much where you like, destroy them all, and the setting will continue. In the Old World, if Middenheim was wiped off the map, it would cause issues later on. So, with this, you can have your cake and eat it.
True, these areas have not really appeared yet (maybe the Brimstone Peninsula, maybe some of the cities described in the fiction), but there is no reason such areas will not grow and become as well known to us as Altdorf or Ulthuan. We are. atfer all, just a few months into this story.
As for generals and tactics... The only infinite troops available to Chaos are the daemons, and the only risk you run in throwing them carelessly into battle is that you might annoy them. That may not be trivial. The mortal Chaos followers are, well, mortal and limited. Though a dedicated Khorne general might be happy throwing his follower's lives away if it meant more blood...
For the Stormcasts, it is not that simple. You have the idea that a great (I won't say ultimate) sacrifice can be made, throwing your 'life' away to create that beach head, slay that greater daemon, etc, that swings the battle. This could very much happen. But throwing lives away?
First, the Stormcasts are good guys, and they have friendships. Once you realise that a dying Stormcast can come back but is going to be 'less' than he was before, it will not be that easy to do to your mates. There is a price to pay for death.
However, we have already seen that, for Stormcasts, there are literally fates worse than death. At the Eternity Fortress, the Chaos Sorcerer was able to trap the souls of the Stormcasts. It did not work out so well for thing, but a similar thing happened in the Hammers of Sigmar book - so, we know a Stormcast's soul can be trapped and the reforging stopped. We have also seen that Stormcasts can be corrupted beyond redemption - if a Tzeentch Sorcerer successfully casts a Bolt of Change on a Stormcast, he ain't going to be walking away from that.
As for the Seraphon, well, until we get the book in our hands, we really don't know what is happening there. It may be that we care as little for the individual Seraphon as we do a Bloodletter and instead the focus goes on the leaders and the general ethos of the Seraphon, as you might 'get into' Khorne, for example.
It is not as easy as just pushing the reset button on these guys though. There is a price to pay for death and there are far worse things that can happen to them. That is where the jeopardy lies.
You really are tireless in your defense, aren't you? :p
I think you give way, way too much credit to the GW writing team if you think they can actually conjure up more than "X warriors attack and kill Y warriors" - they have set up the 40k eternal war gimmick on a pseudo-fantasy setting and they have so far managed to slap endless resources - because don't kid yourself, that's what soldiers are in this setting (just like in 40k) - for all of the factions that have so far been fleshed out.
And the "we don't know the full picture yet because the game's only a few months old" excuse will be running out really soon, because already the M.O for AoS fludd is coming to the fore.
If they start adding cities and towns into the setting I will be thrilled. Did you say there are cities in the novels? That sounds interesting. I can't wait to hear more :-)
Bottle wrote: White Dwarf seems to suggest both, as they are born on beams of celestial light and are undying, and yet there are "Old Bloods" and mention of cohorts "awaiting" the call of their masters.
Why does everything have to be infinite and/or undying? It kind of takes any risk out of any battle, and means there's essentially no outcome. Just eternal war, with no strategy or tactics. I mean a general really should try and keep his troops alive, but why would he bother doing that in AoS if they are either infinite (Chaos) or immortal (Sigmarines, Lizardmen).
I totally agree. I remember White Dwarf Daily shouting the praise of no longer having to battle on the grassy fields of Averland, and while fighting inside a volcano can be fun, they forget that those battles before really MATTERED because there was an Empire city you were protecting just beyond that grassy field.
Well, they wanted/needed to create a setting that could support war of any size at any time in any place, much like 40k. And in that, I think, they were successful. That does not mean you cannot have meaningful or well thought out and complex areas of interaction, such as a group of city states. In fact, you can have those pretty much where you like, destroy them all, and the setting will continue. In the Old World, if Middenheim was wiped off the map, it would cause issues later on. So, with this, you can have your cake and eat it.
True, these areas have not really appeared yet (maybe the Brimstone Peninsula, maybe some of the cities described in the fiction), but there is no reason such areas will not grow and become as well known to us as Altdorf or Ulthuan. We are. atfer all, just a few months into this story.
As for generals and tactics... The only infinite troops available to Chaos are the daemons, and the only risk you run in throwing them carelessly into battle is that you might annoy them. That may not be trivial. The mortal Chaos followers are, well, mortal and limited. Though a dedicated Khorne general might be happy throwing his follower's lives away if it meant more blood...
For the Stormcasts, it is not that simple. You have the idea that a great (I won't say ultimate) sacrifice can be made, throwing your 'life' away to create that beach head, slay that greater daemon, etc, that swings the battle. This could very much happen. But throwing lives away?
First, the Stormcasts are good guys, and they have friendships. Once you realise that a dying Stormcast can come back but is going to be 'less' than he was before, it will not be that easy to do to your mates. There is a price to pay for death.
However, we have already seen that, for Stormcasts, there are literally fates worse than death. At the Eternity Fortress, the Chaos Sorcerer was able to trap the souls of the Stormcasts. It did not work out so well for him, but a similar thing happened in the Hammers of Sigmar book - so, we know a Stormcast's soul can be trapped and the reforging stopped. We have also seen that Stormcasts can be corrupted beyond redemption - if a Tzeentch Sorcerer successfully casts a Bolt of Change on a Stormcast, he ain't going to be walking away from that.
As for the Seraphon, well, until we get the book in our hands, we really don't know what is happening there. It may be that we care as little for the individual Seraphon as we do a Bloodletter and instead the focus goes on the leaders and the general ethos of the Seraphon, as you might 'get into' Khorne, for example.
It is not as easy as just pushing the reset button on these guys though. There is a price to pay for death and there are far worse things that can happen to them. That is where the jeopardy lies.
All the fluff I've seen (not much, I haven't gone out of my way to read it) describes the Bloodbound as an infinite horde. The Stormcast as being soulless resurrected beings and locked in an infinite war and now the Seraphim as undying.
Sure if you look into the fluff beyond what GW have written so far, you may be able to find some risk, but from the preview there is none, and that's enough to put people off. The demons exist only to bloodlust their way through the enemy for the gods, the cultists are mindless drones following the will of the gods, the Stormcast are soulless and only existed at the will of a god to fight the bad guys, the Seraphim are hollow beings of energy created by their gods to fight chaos.
There's nothing in that that makes me feel like I should care about which minions are crashing against a horde of enemy minions, or any feeling that any decision I make in the long run will matter. My Stormcast wipe out the foe? Fair enough, the next endless horde will be along in a minute. My Stormcast were wiped out? Oh well, they'll be resurrected and back fighting the endless horde shortly. Does either side eventually fail?
It's a bit like 40K but worse - there's always an endless tide of Orks and always an endless tide of guardsmen with millions of tanks. Even the Space Marines, which are supposedly depleted in number managed to be everywhere and have no interest in self-preservation and always seem to fall to the endless horde of enemies, despite the fact they've been fighting for 10,000 years and have killed countless foes.
Whereas when I play Flames Of War I feel the loss of every unit and there are real consequences - towns are lost, vehicles are not replaced, and so on. A Tiger II is lost in WW2? That's a huge impact on the way. A Thunderhawk is lost at the start of the first Ultramarines Omnibus? No big deal, another one will be there in 4 minutes.
Going further, when I play Malifaux or Empire Of The Dead, using named characters, I always feel a bit guilty for letting one of them die. I've got no attachment to any AoS race. so far.
I also don't think the endlessness of everything makes a difference to scale - we have imaginations to get round that. Small warbands for small raids around villages, massed armies representing actions by entire cities. There's nothing in the fluff (I assume) to indicate how many Stormcast there are - so what's stopping us assuming it's like humans or Space Marines and they are found in any sized group from 1 to 1,000,000,000? I mean, we've all seen Lord Of The Rings, we can visualize actions anywhere between the Orc raid at the river crossing at the end of Fellowship, up to the defence of Minas Tirith.
Have you done any AoS fluff yet? Is there anything in particular you can point me to that'll give me a better idea of how incorrect my view is?
This reasoning can be applied to every faction... and kinda makes the fluff even worse.
The current Dwarf range warscrolls have the keyword 'Dispossessed', indicating a different faction.
I would imagine that 'New' Duardin stuff won't have this. The Dark Elves have Exiles, the Wood Elves have Wanderer, etc. So it's reasonable to assume that these racial factions will remain.
However, similarly to Dwarfs/Duardin, I don't expect to see new Aelf stuff having these keywords.
The Seraphon have a discrete mechanic based around their fluff (summoning), but nothing indicates the AoS era Aelf & Duardin forces are anything other than residents of the realms.
I mean, even in WFB if you go back far enough in the timeline, there were no Wood, Dark or High Elves - it was just Elves. I'm expecting to see similar logic in reverse for AoS - Aelves united as a single race once more, but still with remnant 'separatist' factions still doing the rounds.
It's not like GW don't have previous for mini-dexes for individual factions in 40K, or the Old appendix lists from 5th/6th Ed WFB.
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Herzlos wrote: The demons exist only to bloodlust their way through the enemy for the gods, the cultists are mindless drones following the will of the gods, the Stormcast are soulless and only existed at the will of a god to fight the bad guys, the Seraphim are hollow beings of energy created by their gods to fight chaos.
...
Have you done any AoS fluff yet? Is there anything in particular you can point me to that'll give me a better idea of how incorrect my view is?
Within the Bloodbound for example, the first novel indicates that the bloodreavers are more subjugated rather than willing.
Khorne is pretty much ascendant in most of the realms because everything else has been crushed underfoot.
The Stormcast arent 'soulless' to begin with, it's just that each successive reforging removes aspects of their humanity.
Overall, the while narrative direction for AoS is the flip of WFB. In WFB, the forces of order fought a battle against Chaos for their own survival.
In AoS, Chaos has already 'won', but now the forces of order are fighting to retake the realms.
To use 40k tropes, Marines are the first ones in to establish a beachhead. The skinny, very mortal guardsmen follow in their wake to do the real work.
The Stormcast arent 'soulless' to begin with, it's just that each successive reforging removes aspects of their humanity.
How long does it take for them to become soulless enough that there's no reason to care about them? 5 deaths? 500?
Assuming a 40K style eternal war, how many of the Stormcast in the fluff have already crossed that point? I get the impression none of them have names or any clear memories? They don't even have their own forms.
The Stormcast and Bloodbound are indeed "endless" insomuch as they're never described in lacking a fresh supply of soldiers. But caught between those two super powers we have the dwarves, elves, men and other races who have been hunted close to extinction, and almost every time we have gained insight into one of the Stormcast's earlier lives it has been in the context of their communities fighting the last desperate battle before being swallowed by chaos. AoS is a post-post-apocalyptic setting and all that could be lost has already been lost, with the exception of Sigmar and the realm of Azyr. The fact that the Stormcast are immortal won't matter if they can't gain a foothold in the realms and prevent them from merging with the realm of Chaos, which was what would've happened had Sigmar waited even a few more days to launch his campaign. Those are the stakes right now in the fluff. After the Stormcast succeed in their reconquest, that's when we'll see communities of mortals returning to their realms, building new cities on the ruins of their former kingdoms.
The Stormcast arent 'soulless' to begin with, it's just that each successive reforging removes aspects of their humanity.
How long does it take for them to become soulless enough that there's no reason to care about them? 5 deaths? 500?
Assuming a 40K style eternal war, how many of the Stormcast in the fluff have already crossed that point? I get the impression none of them have names or any clear memories? They don't even have their own forms.
Even one death is enough for the change to be very noticeable, as seen in one of the novels. The ones who haven't died offer retain quite clear memories of parts of their past, sometimes enough to cause them to doubt who they are; a warrior of sigmar or the blacksmith king of Whateverville? They do have forms, they basically look like beefy dudes, presumably beefier versions of their former selves.
Sorry, by own forms I meant that whatever their existing form (elf, dwarf, human) their new form was presumably a replica of Sigmar. There was outrage about it at the time.
You really are tireless in your defense, aren't you? :p
I know, I apologise. What am I thinking by bringing facts into a discussion?
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: I think you give way, way too much credit to the GW writing team if you think they can actually conjure up more than "X warriors attack and kill Y warriors"
Well, here is the thing, and you can't really get round this: they have already done it. They did it in the Old World, they have done it in 40k.
Now, you might disagree with this but then I have to ask... why are you playing these games if you don't like the background? That would make you very, very unusual...
It really is okay to withhold judgement until you know more - there is no requirement to make any decision and it is probably better if you don't, as it will invariably be wrong.
because already the M.O for AoS fludd is coming to the fore.
I am sorry, I don't know what that means.
Bottle wrote: If they start adding cities and towns into the setting I will be thrilled. Did you say there are cities in the novels? That sounds interesting. I can't wait to hear more :-)
Off the top of my head, there is the city with the Gnawing Gate in the Klaxus stories, a massive (really massive) Khorne complex in Hammers of Sigmar (doesn't give much of a look beyond the big battle outside its walls though), a sorceress who came from an old civilisation in the same story andm, if you like the 'little' people, the Knight of Corruption has, for want of a better word, a pre-Sigmarite monastery.
All the fluff I've seen (not much, I haven't gone out of my way to read it)
If you have taken a quick snapshot of things, how correct do you think you will be? Not just in AoS, but anything. It is not my intention to call you out here, but I imagine you can guess things will be missed if you just take a quick look at things - which is one reason these forums are useful!
You asked about how many Stormcasts there are - this is a little mutable, as they obviously need to leave players room to create their own Stormhosts. However, there is some quite solid info in the Stormcasts' Battletome about how large a Stormhost is. Chaos forces are going to be a lot more variable but, again, the Bloodbound Battletome gives a good picture at how a warband is typically arranged, with proportions of Reavers, Blood Warriors, Skullcrushers, etc, plus the people who lead them.
You mentioned how the Stormcasts seem to be locked into an infinite war - it may very well end up that way (GW need to be selling models in 20 years time!), but that is not how it is being pitched. Sigmar has had enough of Chaos strutting about, and is now launching the counter attack, a grand crusade. Again, the D-Day landings are a good analogy.
The very best source material at the moment is probably the fiction. The best (in my opinion) are the War Storm and Ghal Maraz stories (all linked), though they are concentrating on the 'D-Day landings' and how everyone fights rather than the back story behind them all. Others have little snippets that are interesting. If you accept that some will be better than others, you cannot really go wrong with some of the eshorts - they are both cheap and don't require a huge investment in time.
For the record I enjoy many games without being too bothered about the fluff. My games of 40K feel nothing like the fluff, for instance (read Gaunts Ghosts and then watch your guardsmen get creamed by pretty much anything).
Seriously, I can't understand why people continue to demand exact answers about the setting - there have been only 6 hardback "rulebooks" and 4 hardback novels printed so far . Surely we can wait a couple of years - the game is still young...
On to the topic at hand - while browsing the Seraphon new bundles I found a sentence mentioning that the seraphon's battles will be remembered for eons in many mythologies. It's only a single sentence but from all I've seen things are forming the way MongooseMatt described them - nothing exact and in stone - everyone is fighting everyone forever everywhere so anything goes. I expect short paragraphs, like in the book's timelines, to give players a little inspiration and nothing concrete. It will be a vast universe with many mysterious places, defined by a single sentence somewhere, and a central epic story told in broad strokes - like 40k. I expect Seraphon to be presented in the exact same manner, but I guess I'll see next week.
Herzlos wrote: My bad then, I thought they were warriors from all races.
They were, as far as I know. Some of them were even orcs! Sigmar's a very equal-opportunity employer, so long as you don't mind looking exactly the same as all his other Stormcast after he gets ahold of you. Such a missed modeling opportunity...imagine a jawplate done in Stormcast gold with an orc mask!
The setting is pretty blatantly designed to be an all-out, eternal war sort of thing like 40k has going for it. So far, the fleshed-out factions can either respawn or have all but endless hordes of troops to draw from. They've gone out of their way to avoid detailing major areas of civilization or important areas beyond quick mentions along the line of 'this is the landmark of AdjectiveNoun, they had a huge battle here and lots of people died', but Josh Reynolds has referenced both that the Mortal Realms are basically infinite and that there are supposedly areas uncorrupted by Chaos (despite their victory). It's a deliberate decision to try and get the players to do the background detailing themselves; handled differently, it might even be interesting (GW should absolutely run a 'design a Mortal Realms ruined kingdom' contest!). As it is - and this is no judgment on the authors, rather, it's aimed at the people telling them what to write - it feels like a very lazy, very hands-off design choice.
Back on topic, the Seraphon feed right into that from the snippets I've seen. Obviously the book's still up for preorder, and I'm not going to run out and buy it when it IS released, but we've gotten enough to tell us the general direction of the faction. They have the same adjective-overuse problem as the Stormcast and Khornates, the rank and file are 'summoned memories' or crystallized magic or something rather than actual living, breathing beings that have a life outside fighting Chaos (except the Slaan? Maybe?), and they seem to be wholly focused on war. They fit right in with the other reworked factions and the setting for Age of Sigmar, I'll give them that, but they aren't my cup of tea.
Kilkrazy wrote: If I'm honest, I just don't like the new celestial realms fluff. It doesn't give me anything to care about or connect with.
I have to agree with that. The whole idea of 'good demons' I find very unimaginative and just lacking, the same way I feel the immortal superhumans created by a god to fight his wars are. It's just... boring.
"But they're Seraphs.. Good demons... They're Angels! Get it!
The fact that the rank and file might not be living, thinking creatures is really what might be the final nail in the coffin for me, and I know that's strange. But I really, really dislike that direction.
I liked that the skinks were kind of the citizen soldiers of the lizardmen; that they were individuals with their own personalities, because even in the old setting, a lot of armies didn't have much of that.
And for all the supposed openness of the new setting, everything with the new armies seems to really restrict what kind of people they can actually be.
I think its ok. No new models isn't really an issue grey knights were ok and necrons only got one. I imagine rebranding existing forces getting them a book and getting them out asap is gw's end goal. Once that's done then we may start seeing new updated models which I think is a good way to do it
A stormcast carries a huge price for dying and reading the novels Vandus(The gold guy riding the Dracoth) is quite scared about dying scared enough to ask his Relicator Ionus who is from the realm of death on whats going on. The same Relicator is pretty much still serving nagash in a capacity. Essentially each time they die a part of their spirit is slashed away because death does not really like the stormcast and sigmar defying it. Or it might be nagash trying to grab their souls going by the audiobook. Anyway dying once or twice is not a big deal but the third time? That's when you start turning into a robot a lord celestant from the celestial vindicators has died about 3-4 times and now he cannot even remember Vandus. The same guy who Lamented about the chaos warrior he killed because instead of finding a mutated monstrosity under the helmet he just saw a young man and this is the stormhost obsessed with vengeance mind you.
He essentially is turning into sigmar's robot and he only cares about the defeat of chaos. The question is yeah you fight and die for what you believe in but what happens if you have a form of immortality that strips away everything that you are? You will no longer remember your comrades, your family and those you cared for and it does not help the reforging messes with their memories as well. All you will be is sigmar's little warrior.
Funny enough so far sigmar has shown no inclination in trying to fix this.
It seems the only god that "cares" about their followers is nagash shockingly but you don't annoy him or stuff happens bad stuff and its noted by a mortal pilgrim that largely undead keep to their word apart from "that" vampire no one seems to like him for obvious reasons. Now with the bloodbound their lives suck how they get new people is essetinally joins us ooor we eat you alive choose. In the call of Archeon series a Khornate character named skull gets bloody philosophical about why someone would join chaos as all instead of fighting it and the crux of it is simply pure survival until the dark gods take your mind and you end up us one of their followers. Essetinally the stormcast are killing people that had no choice in the matter and once they become a warrior? Its too late that's the sad thing about it.
Now Seraphon fighting slaaneshi daemons? I need to get this book.... is there any confirmation on this battleplan?
toasteroven wrote: The fact that the rank and file might not be living, thinking creatures is really what might be the final nail in the coffin for me, and I know that's strange. But I really, really dislike that direction.
I liked that the skinks were kind of the citizen soldiers of the lizardmen; that they were individuals with their own personalities, because even in the old setting, a lot of armies didn't have much of that.
People appear to have misread a lot.
I thought I must have missed something, so I've gone back over all the GW blog posts and reread White Dwarf.
Seraphon exist elsewhere, referred to as 'High Azyr, amongst the stars'.
They definitely exist separately from the battlefield, and it's not a daemonic summoning, it's a stormcast-esque teleportation.
It refers to them 'bleeding the stuff of the celestial realm', which might have a deeper meaning.
But nowhere am I getting a lot of what people have been saying.
There's a reference to the skinks and saurus being 'memories' of the former Lizardmen, I believe, brought into being by the Slaan for the purpose of killing Chaos followers. Maybe that's been misinterpreted, or maybe it's another victim of GW's refusal to flesh out their AoS fluff until Battletomes are released. Given the track record, though, I'd bet on them being more war robots.
Metaphorically, I mean. Maybe the Duardin will fill that gap. :p
People appear to have misread a lot.
I thought I must have missed something, so I've gone back over all the GW blog posts and reread White Dwarf.
Seraphon exist elsewhere, referred to as 'High Azyr, amongst the stars'.
They definitely exist separately from the battlefield, and it's not a daemonic summoning, it's a stormcast-esque teleportation.
It refers to them 'bleeding the stuff of the celestial realm', which might have a deeper meaning.
But nowhere am I getting a lot of what people have been saying.
I certainly hope it's a misreading! I guess I should just hold on and wait.
I'm still heck of confused about trying to picture where anything is in these realms, though. But that's a different post.
My opinion on seraphon. If they are memories from the old world and like som good deamons I am done with lizardmen. If they are armies being teleported to the battlefield by the slann I find them still interesting.
Yes, the background of AoS is on a bigger scale than before; no longer are we limited to just one world. Here, open the gates of the Infinite Realms!
Honestly, I like that part in the fluff. It is quite different from the Old World, that's for sure, but it gives such a fantasy picture. And it's not just for Chaos now.
About the "our armies cannot truly die" part, I believe it's part of the game. It's natural to have our precious miniatures/characters painted with love/having a long and detailed background to be somewhat "immortal" - or at least not dying at your first game because he failed a save roll against a puny gob. Since AoS is quite deadly as a game, it's not a bad idea to try to find an explanation about how the hell our armies can still fight if they keep having such heavy losses.
The "infinite hordes" justification is a possible answer. The "we can't truly die" one is another.
That's what I would call "forging the narrative". But of course, you can also write your own stories and your own point of view. What about a Stormcast being truly corrupted (ie forsaking Sigmar)? What if something went wrong in his Forging and he can't ressurect like the others? What if these Seraphons met were actually not Seraphons, but lizardmen-like monsters raiding and pillaging the surrounding as mindless beasts?
Fluff is just here to help us giving a personnality to our collection. Some like to follow it to the letter others would rather change it to their own needs. There are enough "gaps" in AoS's fluff to allow your imagination to fly free.
I certainly hope it's a misreading! I guess I should just hold on and wait.
I'm still heck of confused about trying to picture where anything is in these realms, though. But that's a different post.
My take on it is that the realm of Azyr is 'space'. Azyrheim is depicted as a dyson-sphere type arrangement around the remaining core of the Old World, so I guess space station/moon arrangement. The other realms are planetoid-ish - no idea if actual planets or discworlds - with the realm of death 'below', and the realm of Chaos 'off to one side'.
So the Seraphon coming from 'High Azyr' meens deep space.
As for the Aztec imagery, I'd always taken that as being a result of the Old Ones using that kind of imagery rather than anything distinct to old Lustria.
I certainly hope it's a misreading! I guess I should just hold on and wait.
I'm still heck of confused about trying to picture where anything is in these realms, though. But that's a different post.
My take on it is that the realm of Azyr is 'space'. Azyrheim is depicted as a dyson-sphere type arrangement around the remaining core of the Old World, so I guess space station/moon arrangement. The other realms are planetoid-ish - no idea if actual planets or discworlds - with the realm of death 'below', and the realm of Chaos 'off to one side'.
So the Seraphon coming from 'High Azyr' meens deep space.
I think you're getting confused with Azyrheim and Sigmaron (it is confusing, I'll admit!). Sigmaron is the space station around the Mallus (the remains of the old world). Azyrheim is a city on land. It is built onto a mountainside.
I don't deny that the highest climbs of Azyr are space, but the heart (Azyrheim) is on land.
With regards to Seraphon being conjuered memories or real creatures existing outside of the battle, in the OP I mentioned how confusing the fluff is so far. This is from the latest White Dwarf however:
White Dwarf 92 p.16 wrote:
"The Seraphon appear as reptilian warriors, creatures summoned from ancient memory - and indeed that is their origin"
"At a thought the Slann bring mighty war beasts forth from the deepest recesses of their slumbering memories."
Bottle wrote: If they start adding cities and towns into the setting I will be thrilled. Did you say there are cities in the novels? That sounds interesting. I can't wait to hear more :-)
Off the top of my head, there is the city with the Gnawing Gate in the Klaxus stories, a massive (really massive) Khorne complex in Hammers of Sigmar (doesn't give much of a look beyond the big battle outside its walls though), a sorceress who came from an old civilisation in the same story andm, if you like the 'little' people, the Knight of Corruption has, for want of a better word, a pre-Sigmarite monastery.
*snip*
The very best source material at the moment is probably the fiction. The best (in my opinion) are the War Storm and Ghal Maraz stories (all linked), though they are concentrating on the 'D-Day landings' and how everyone fights rather than the back story behind them all. Others have little snippets that are interesting. If you accept that some will be better than others, you cannot really go wrong with some of the eshorts - they are both cheap and don't require a huge investment in time.
That all sounds very interesting! Unfortunately reading the fiction is something that has never been part of my hobby experience and likely never will. Do these cities feature in the main campaign books? Hopefully they will do soon if they don't already.
I totally understand GW's intent to make the setting one of infinite possiblities and it really excites me too. I am having fun with Azyrheim as it is, but I want more cities and towns (especially ruled by Order) to have to bounce ideas off. 40K gives us a great framework with the different types of planets (Forgeworlds, Hive Worlds etc) and then gives us thousands of example planets. I hope they start giving example towns and cities soon in the other Mortal Realms. And for me BL fiction doesn't count :p
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jonolikespie wrote: Wait, Sigi's place in the 'heavens' realm is in space but the realm of 'heavens' itself is actually mostly on the ground?
In the latest White Dwarf it talks about every sky in the Mortal Realms having a vast star scape, and the 'furthest climbs' of the Azyr realm seem to be in Space.
Azyrheim is the heart of the realm of Azyr, but it is spoken of as being built on a mountainside and under the light of Suns and moons (suggesting it is not in space). It is bathed in the golden light of Mallus (the old world) and we have seen Sigmaron (the space station) is built around Mallus.
Sigmaron is where Sigmarine equipment is forged. It's also where the Empire and Bretonnian reenactors hang out (according to the compediums - maybe GW are confused too lol).
I don't thing Sigmar lives in either though. Doesn't he live in Sigmarion? His giant palace?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I imagine the Azyr realm to look like a slice of pizza with Azyrheim being at the narrow tip and the Seraphon living in the cheesy crust of outer space.
Either that or for the Azyr realm to be a sphere of space with a planet at its centre and Azyrhiem being built on that planet.
I certainly hope it's a misreading! I guess I should just hold on and wait.
I'm still heck of confused about trying to picture where anything is in these realms, though. But that's a different post.
My take on it is that the realm of Azyr is 'space'. Azyrheim is depicted as a dyson-sphere type arrangement around the remaining core of the Old World, so I guess space station/moon arrangement. The other realms are planetoid-ish - no idea if actual planets or discworlds - with the realm of death 'below', and the realm of Chaos 'off to one side'.
So the Seraphon coming from 'High Azyr' meens deep space.
I think you're getting confused with Azyrheim and Sigmaron (it is confusing, I'll admit!). Sigmaron is the space station around the Mallus (the remains of the old world). Azyrheim is a city on land. It is built onto a mountainside.
I don't deny that the highest climbs of Azyr are space, but the heart (Azyrheim) is on land.
With regards to Seraphon being conjuered memories or real creatures existing outside of the battle, in the OP I mentioned how confusing the fluff is so far. This is from the latest White Dwarf however:
White Dwarf 92 p.16 wrote:
"The Seraphon appear as reptilian warriors, creatures summoned from ancient memory - and indeed that is their origin"
"At a thought the Slann bring mighty war beasts forth from the deepest recesses of their slumbering memories."
I think Azyrheim got stuck in my head because of, well, Azyr.
The bit about the first quote though is that you need the sentence that follows;
White Dwarf 92 p.16 wrote:
"The Seraphon appear as reptilian warriors, creatures summoned from ancient memory - and indeed that is their origin. Following the death of the sundered world, they fled to the stars."
It's a bit awkwardly written, but if anything it confirms the Seraphon are Lizardmen as we knew them in WFB - they're an ancient memory because no-one has seen them since they disappeared during the End Times, which has been thousands of years.
Second quote, similar - hacky writing.
There's another couple of quotes, but the main one (It's in "Armies of the Stars", don't have the page number)
"Beyond the gaze of mortal men, the armies of the Seraphon muster for war in vast numbers, creatures of celestial magic who await the summons of their masters.
Beneath icons that bear strange and secret meanings, understood only by the Seraphon and their ineffable masters, they muster for war - serried ranks of Saurus, Skinks and war beasts waiting for the call to arms. [..]
Seraphon appear as though from pillars of light or celestial mists, ..."
So there is frequent mention of them being beasts of magic / bleeding the stuff of magic - nothing particularly clear there - but all the writing indicates that Seraphon do 'exist' somewhere else, and are summoned/teleported to battle by the Slann.
I love their design, concept and units for the most part. However, I think that their infanty don't look all that good. Their weapons don't look as impressive as other factions.
toasteroven wrote: That's... good news? Those quotes do sound like they refer to actual living beings.
Only causes for concern for me; they have the keyword DAEMON on their warscrolls, and the references to bleeding the stuff of celestial magic.
Wondering if they are instead a kind of projection rather than direct teleportation, which would explain the fact they definitely exist on a mortal plane but appear intrinsically magical on the battlefield.
Can't think of a decent analogue, except maybe the Star Trek holodeck idea but in reverse - or the Red Dwarf 'Better Than Life' game. Or possibly Avatar?
So the Seraphon exist in 'Deep Space' and whilst Bob the Kroxigor is real enough 'up there', when he's mangling Chaos Warriors in Ghyran he's actually inhabiting a magical facsimile of himself?
It's late, I'm tired, I'm going to bed.
MongooseMatt wrote: I know, I apologise. What am I thinking by bringing facts into a discussion?
Doesn't mean you're not tirelessly white knighting for AoS. End of.
Edit: and that still doesn't stop Sigmarines from having endless resources for warfare purposes, as that is what the AoS fluff is all about anyway.
MongooseMatt wrote: Well, here is the thing, and you can't really get round this: they have already done it. They did it in the Old World, they have done it in 40k.
Now, you might disagree with this but then I have to ask... why are you playing these games if you don't like the background? That would make you very, very unusual...
It really is okay to withhold judgement until you know more - there is no requirement to make any decision and it is probably better if you don't, as it will invariably be wrong.
- Do tell me what you mean by "very unusual" - I do hate euphemistic language; - Do tell me where I've said I play AoS frequently or even like the AoS fluff; - Do tell me where I said I don't like the 40k background; - Do tell me where one is forced to like AoS's silly excuse of a "fleshed out background" just because it's pretty much a pale copy/paste procedure from 40k.
I am making judgements because the three factions fleshed out so far all have endless supplies of warriors - which factions had endless supplies of troops in the Old World?
Four: Chaos, Skaven and the Undead. Who else had - fluffwise - the ability to push forth endless (or nearly so) supplies of resources to dedicate to warfare?
Of course you don't, because you're choosing to ignore the fact that i did a typo there and that Fludd = fluff.
Also, in case you don't know: M.O = Modus Operandi: "a method of procedure; especially : a distinct pattern or method of operation that indicates or suggests the work of a single criminal in more than one crime"
What truly fleshed out faction so far doesn't have endless supplies of resources to throw into battle so far? And I am talking the ruthless calculus of war - able bodies willing (or at least obedient enough) to fight for whatever - I am not talking buddies here.
Doesn't mean you're not tirelessly white knighting for AoS. End of.
Yeah, that is not how discussions work.
I think I have been quite clear that I am a fan of the game. When I come to a forum for it, it is not unlikely I will be talking about the game in a positive manner...
- Do tell me what you mean by "very unusual" - I do hate euphemistic language; .
Well, that is okay, because I was not using any. I actually meant that there would not be many of you, that most people come to these games because they are (initially at least) drawn into the background to one extent or another. To play without paying any attention at all to the background would be, quote, 'very unusual'.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: - Do tell me where I've said I play AoS frequently or even like the AoS fluff; .
I said games, plural - I meant all Warhammer games.
I was using 40k as an example of where the GW writing team had done things you suggested they could not.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: - Do tell me where one is forced to like AoS's silly excuse of a "fleshed out background" just because it's pretty much a pale copy/paste procedure from 40k. .
Is that a serious question? Because this is a game, an option - no one is forced to do anything...
I am making judgements because the three factions fleshed out so far all have endless supplies of warriors - which factions had endless supplies of troops in the Old World?
If we equate large with endless, sure, you could say even the Sylvaneth fit (there are an awful lot of trees, after all). But then I would have to ask, who would that not apply to in the Old World as well? Sure, when a State Trooper dies, his family grieves, but there are way many more to replace him than there are Stormcasts in total.
The setting, by definition, needs armies that can engage in multiple wars against multiple foes.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Four: Chaos, Skaven and the Undead. Who else had - fluffwise - the ability to push forth endless (or nearly so) supplies of resources to dedicate to warfare?
Of course you don't, because you're choosing to ignore the fact that i did a typo there and that Fludd = fluff.
See the thing with typos is that they are not always obvious. I equally had not the foggiest idea what you were on about. For all I knew fludd was just some term that is local to your country, or some 'youthful' term that in my age I haven't heard yet. Trying to somehow shift blame to the reader of your own typo is pretty pathetic.
I noticed that too, but IMO it is a mistake (unless the saurus and skinks truly are materializes dreams and not true lizardmen ) . If you choose the seraphon faction all units are present.
Doesn't mean you're not tirelessly white knighting for AoS. End of.
Yeah, that is not how discussions work.
I think I have been quite clear that I am a fan of the game. When I come to a forum for it, it is not unlikely I will be talking about the game in a positive manner...
- Do tell me what you mean by "very unusual" - I do hate euphemistic language; .
Well, that is okay, because I was not using any. I actually meant that there would not be many of you, that most people come to these games because they are (initially at least) drawn into the background to one extent or another. To play without paying any attention at all to the background would be, quote, 'very unusual'.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: - Do tell me where I've said I play AoS frequently or even like the AoS fluff; .
I said games, plural - I meant all Warhammer games.
I was using 40k as an example of where the GW writing team had done things you suggested they could not.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: - Do tell me where one is forced to like AoS's silly excuse of a "fleshed out background" just because it's pretty much a pale copy/paste procedure from 40k. .
Is that a serious question? Because this is a game, an option - no one is forced to do anything...
I am making judgements because the three factions fleshed out so far all have endless supplies of warriors - which factions had endless supplies of troops in the Old World?
If we equate large with endless, sure, you could say even the Sylvaneth fit (there are an awful lot of trees, after all). But then I would have to ask, who would that not apply to in the Old World as well? Sure, when a State Trooper dies, his family grieves, but there are way many more to replace him than there are Stormcasts in total.
The setting, by definition, needs armies that can engage in multiple wars against multiple foes.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Four: Chaos, Skaven and the Undead. Who else had - fluffwise - the ability to push forth endless (or nearly so) supplies of resources to dedicate to warfare?
Of course you don't, because you're choosing to ignore the fact that i did a typo there and that Fludd = fluff.
I honestly was not making fun of you, I really did not know what you were trying to say, and I do not feel it was obvious.
The 40k setting is spanning an entire galaxy, and it lends some credibility to the whole endless war thing even if not all of the species are able to pump out entire hordes for the ruthless attrition - they are usually the most technologically advanced (Tau/Eldar/Necrons). To me the 9 Magic Realms of AoS don't really equate to 40k's Galaxy when it comes to sheer resource production, which is leading to this whole hordes/undying soldiers on the fleshed out factions. They are a necessity for the obvious copying from 40k's "eternal war" that is taking place.
As for the WHFB setting, I really don't find the "eternal war" thing fits the Old World at all. I mean if you look at the End Times, it becomes increasingly obvious that the hm... "good".... side just can't hold back the sheer numbers set against them, even with Nagash and the Orcs (!) helping them out. In another example, Naggaroth is overwhelmed pretty quickly and without much effort, really, which only further motivates Malekith's invasion gamble. And do notice that this invasion is taking place as Chaos also launches its "test" invasion into the Empire, and has already curbstomped Kislev. And we're not even taking into account the gray areas that are Cathay, Nippon, etc etc...
Of course, quality writers such as Gav Thorpe will always eschew that for the lovely reason of "there will be as many members of X alive as the story demands it"... which kinda counters a lot of the pre-established elf/dwarf/human fluff. (I am unsure about adding Lizardmen to that - I have the distinct memory of reading that the Saurus spawns were becoming lesser and lesser but I am not sure and would actually welcome a refresh on this).
Actually, if you go back to the Golden Age of the Elves the only thing that stopped Chaos from swarming over the Old World all on its own was Caledor's creation of the Vortex. And by this time Aenarion had already taken up the Widowmaker and (arguably) the Elven species was at its military peak.
As I have said before, the WHFB setting is about loss and delaying the inevitable chaos victory for as long as possible, not eternal war. In a way it is the opposite the 40k setting while maintaining the "usual suspects" themes - it's just that in 40k the main "protagonists" are also slowly falling into decay and losing it but that is overshadowed by the eternal war shtick.
On a side note I am note sure if the Greenskins as a whole can pump out as many resources as the Skaven can, even after taking goblins into account.
Out of curiosity, has the AoS fluff covered what happens to a treekin/dryad/treemen when they die? Do they go out like they did in WHFB or do they pull a Groot/Get spirited to a different piece of wood?
toasteroven wrote: That's... good news? Those quotes do sound like they refer to actual living beings.
Only causes for concern for me; they have the keyword DAEMON on their warscrolls, and the references to bleeding the stuff of celestial magic.
Wondering if they are instead a kind of projection rather than direct teleportation, which would explain the fact they definitely exist on a mortal plane but appear intrinsically magical on the battlefield.
Can't think of a decent analogue, except maybe the Star Trek holodeck idea but in reverse - or the Red Dwarf 'Better Than Life' game. Or possibly Avatar?
So the Seraphon exist in 'Deep Space' and whilst Bob the Kroxigor is real enough 'up there', when he's mangling Chaos Warriors in Ghyran he's actually inhabiting a magical facsimile of himself?
It's late, I'm tired, I'm going to bed.
Gosh, considering the whole fluff one might almost be led to think it a half-baked load of toss. But no! Who could be so cynical as to not want to wait 30 years for GW to reveal the full genius of their plan?
Lizard Men they are to me, and Lizard Men they will remain. I care not if they shamble out of the jungles of lost Lustria, or teleport down from a magic SF craft world in Spaaace, powered by Slann. I will not field an army either way, as GW prices are too high to encourage new players to start armies.
Out of curiosity, has the AoS fluff covered what happens to a treekin/dryad/treemen when they die? Do they go out like they did in WHFB or do they pull a Groot/Get spirited to a different piece of wood?
Not that I have read. I just presumed they become compost...
Gosh, considering the whole fluff one might almost be led to think it a half-baked load of toss. But no! Who could be so cynical as to not want to wait 30 years for GW to reveal the full genius of their plan?
You, evidently. With a heavy side of flippant.
Especially as most of this is conjecture until the Battletome drops.
In the grim dark of the infinite 9 Realms, there is only war.......
AoS has great potential, but it is being woefully squandered. So many companies out there can release one rulebook with fluff that has at least adequate info introducing several factions at once to give players a good kickstart on the setting I really wanted GW to as well. Each race could easily have had a page or two of basic setting 'primer', with details of their location, motivations, etc.
AegisGrimm wrote: In the grim dark of the infinite 9 Realms, there is only war.......
AoS has great potential, but it is being woefully squandered. So many companies out there can release one rulebook with fluff that has at least adequate info introducing several factions at once to give players a good kickstart on the setting I really wanted GW to as well. Each race could easily have had a page or two of basic setting 'primer', with details of their location, motivations, etc.
That's because GW are making it up as they go along. All the speculation about GW taking over two years carefully planning AoS is bollocks. The game is clearly a rushed out product in a rather panicked response to the collapse of WHFB and 40K.
The fluff background currently described is as wide open, derivative, undetailed and generic as possible, allowing more or less anything to be spooged in as and when GW get around to repackaging the models for each army.
The last thing GW would ever do is to write everything now, and put it in store for release over the next 30 years. That would be completely inefficient.
It's "clearly" a rushed out product despite there being no evidence of that, and in fact the rumors from ostensible insiders say that it has been planned for many years? Forgive me if I don't put much stock in that...
Oh, and 40k is not "collapsing". WHFB collapsed, 40k not so much.
- Do tell me what you mean by "very unusual" - I do hate euphemistic language; .
Well, that is okay, because I was not using any. I actually meant that there would not be many of you, that most people come to these games because they are (initially at least) drawn into the background to one extent or another. To play without paying any attention at all to the background would be, quote, 'very unusual'.
It does seem to me that a fairly large part even of those that do play AoS don't care about the AoS fluff; prefering to imagine their battles taking place in the old world. AoS players as a group don't seem to purchase the background books in any large numbers either; presumably because even they don't find it engaging or well written.
- Do tell me what you mean by "very unusual" - I do hate euphemistic language; .
Well, that is okay, because I was not using any. I actually meant that there would not be many of you, that most people come to these games because they are (initially at least) drawn into the background to one extent or another. To play without paying any attention at all to the background would be, quote, 'very unusual'.
It does seem to me that a fairly large part even of those that do play AoS don't care about the AoS fluff; prefering to imagine their battles taking place in the old world. AoS players as a group don't seem to purchase the background books in any large numbers either; presumably because even they don't find it engaging or well written.
Not for me. Finance is the reason I haven't bought all 5 books they've released in 4 months.
Gosh, considering the whole fluff one might almost be led to think it a half-baked load of toss. But no! Who could be so cynical as to not want to wait 30 years for GW to reveal the full genius of their plan?
You, evidently. With a heavy side of flippant.
Especially as most of this is conjecture until the Battletome drops.
The Battletome dropped. They're all memories except for the Slaan, and everything else is kept as vague as possible, apparently.
Gosh, considering the whole fluff one might almost be led to think it a half-baked load of toss. But no! Who could be so cynical as to not want to wait 30 years for GW to reveal the full genius of their plan?
You, evidently. With a heavy side of flippant.
Especially as most of this is conjecture until the Battletome drops.
The Battletome dropped. They're all memories except for the Slaan, and everything else is kept as vague as possible, apparently.
I think the appropriate reaction would be "oopsie"
Mymearan wrote: It's "clearly" a rushed out product despite there being no evidence of that, and in fact the rumors from ostensible insiders say that it has been planned for many years? Forgive me if I don't put much stock in that...
Oh, and 40k is not "collapsing". WHFB collapsed, 40k not so much.
Mymearan wrote: It's "clearly" a rushed out product despite there being no evidence of that, and in fact the rumors from ostensible insiders say that it has been planned for many years? Forgive me if I don't put much stock in that...
Oh, and 40k is not "collapsing". WHFB collapsed, 40k not so much.
As is quite clear from GW's financials, their year on year profits are dropping. So, we can come to one of two conclusions here- Either the same amount of people are buying less product or lower amounts of product are being shifted due to there being less people playing GW's games.
Anecdotal evidence would suggest the latter because the rest of the wargaming industry appears to be expanding.
Mymearan wrote: It's "clearly" a rushed out product despite there being no evidence of that, and in fact the rumors from ostensible insiders say that it has been planned for many years? Forgive me if I don't put much stock in that...
Oh, and 40k is not "collapsing". WHFB collapsed, 40k not so much.
So, how's the Egyptian river this time of year?
Shhh... it's all a dream...
All a dream...
Oh, don't I wish. If it turned out everything from the End Times on was a fever dream brought on by Greasus Goldtooth eating a Plaguebearer...
Well, GW would probably take a massive financial hit and everyone would be furious, but I'd laugh.
As is quite clear from GW's financials, their year on year profits are dropping. So, we can come to one of two conclusions here- Either the same amount of people are buying less product or lower amounts of product are being shifted due to there being less people playing GW's games.
Anecdotal evidence would suggest the latter because the rest of the wargaming industry appears to be expanding.
I never questioned that GWs sales are dropping (although we have no idea which products are selling less). They clearly are. From there to "40k is collapsing" though, it making quite a leap of logic.
I think the appropriate reaction would be "oopsie"
I wasn't arguing for or against anything - just discussing what info had already been released. So it wasn't an "oopsie".
It's not like KK was actually stating anything either, other than being unusually vitriolic.
That's because GW are making it up as they go along. All the speculation about GW taking over two years carefully planning AoS is bollocks. The game is clearly a rushed out product in a rather panicked response to the collapse of WHFB and 40K.
Mymearan wrote: It's "clearly" a rushed out product despite there being no evidence of that, and in fact the rumors from ostensible insiders say that it has been planned for many years? Forgive me if I don't put much stock in that...
Oh, and 40k is not "collapsing". WHFB collapsed, 40k not so much.
Sales down 25% in three years?
I'm not prepared to put any credence in rumours fmor ostensible insiders.
Mymearan wrote: It's "clearly" a rushed out product despite there being no evidence of that, and in fact the rumors from ostensible insiders say that it has been planned for many years? Forgive me if I don't put much stock in that...
Oh, and 40k is not "collapsing". WHFB collapsed, 40k not so much.
Sales down 25% in three years?
I'm not prepared to put any credence in rumours fmor ostensible insiders.
Sales of what? You specified 40k, have 40k sales dropped 25% in three years?
Mymearan wrote: It's "clearly" a rushed out product despite there being no evidence of that, and in fact the rumors from ostensible insiders say that it has been planned for many years? Forgive me if I don't put much stock in that...
Oh, and 40k is not "collapsing". WHFB collapsed, 40k not so much.
Sales down 25% in three years?
I'm not prepared to put any credence in rumours fmor ostensible insiders.
Sales of what? You specified 40k, have 40k sales dropped 25% in three years?
To repeat:
As is quite clear from GW's financials, their year on year profits are dropping. So, we can come to one of two conclusions here- Either the same amount of people are buying less product or lower amounts of product are being shifted due to there being less people playing GW's games.
The financials do not lie. One of the above is true.
GW sales have dropped 25% in three years. We all know that the majority of sales were 40K, so that fall must be mostly 40K and cannot be pinned on WHFB, especially if people want to claim that GW started preparing AoS over two years ago to cope with the fall off of WHFB sales.
So it's all conjecture. That's what I thought. Hardly enough evidence to talk about a "collapse". GW have three main products, and we have no idea which of them is responsible for which percent of the sales drop. We have no idea what GWs cutoff point for Fantasy was. We have no idea how well 40k sells now compared to three years ago, other then that it's probably selling less. How much less? We have no idea. Again, hardly enough evidence to use such strong language.
Mymearan wrote: So it's all conjecture. That's what I thought. Hardly enough evidence to talk about a "collapse". GW have three main products, and we have no idea which of them is responsible for which percent of the sales drop. We have no idea what GWs cutoff point for Fantasy was. We have no idea how well 40k sells now compared to three years ago, other then that it's probably selling less. How much less? We have no idea. Again, hardly enough evidence to use such strong language.
What's the third, paint? I know you're not talking about Hobbit because they released like 4 finecast blisters with the last movie (after stopping finecast) and never did two of the three starter sets they had initially planned. Plus you can still find the 'limited edition' starters gather dust everywhere. It is a dead game and has been before any of the financials being talked about where relevant.
But lets look at this though, if GW's Fantasy sales were so bad that they decided to nuke the setting some time in of before 2013 then we can assume the impact Fantasy had on the 2013 forward financials was negligible.
Mymearan wrote: So it's all conjecture. That's what I thought. Hardly enough evidence to talk about a "collapse". GW have three main products, and we have no idea which of them is responsible for which percent of the sales drop. We have no idea what GWs cutoff point for Fantasy was. We have no idea how well 40k sells now compared to three years ago, other then that it's probably selling less. How much less? We have no idea. Again, hardly enough evidence to use such strong language.
Well, not speculation, it's based on GW's facts including new releases, new prices, player reaction, and the financial performance over the past decade.
How much less is 40K selling? Up to 25% less.
If we take the 7% sales figure for WHFB that has been quoted by AoS supporters as a reason for canning of the game, then 40K is selling 18% less than three years ago.
Maybe I'm big on the nostalgia of years past, but I much preferred Lustrian Lizardmen over Lizard space-memories.
Lustria inherently gave them a tongue in cheek reason for all the Aztec imagery, much like Tileans being Italian, Brettonians being French, Empire being Austrian, etc. It was part of what I thought was the charm of the Old World, in that it was a fun "Uchronia" of comparisons with Earth.
Now, the whole "memory" angle is a Star Trek "hand-wavium" to ignore the fact that the Aztec imagery has no place in the AoS world/s, which are really not fleshed out at all, giving them a super vanilla feel where the player should not be worrying about such things, only bloody combat between what is right now essentially a war of angels and deamons where normal people are ignored.
It's like mortals are sitting on the sidelines watching as the legendary celestial warriors of all the religions of Earth clash.
Thats a good point- the stormcast really are reminiscent of renaissance christian imagery, and the seraphon not only are named after christian angels but also still have all those aztec sacred imagery. Maybe its my ocd or maybe im looking too much into this, but is this fine, un-p.c. or just lazy design?
Mymearan wrote: It's "clearly" a rushed out product despite there being no evidence of that, and in fact the rumors from ostensible insiders say that it has been planned for many years? Forgive me if I don't put much stock in that...
You mean beyond the quality and depth of it?
I really doubt that if GW had actually spend the suggested 2 years on AoS, they'd manage to come out with anything so blatantly incomplete. 2 Days? Definitely. 2 Weeks? Maybe. 2 years? Not a chance.
Tailessine wrote: Thats a good point- the stormcast really are reminiscent of renaissance christian imagery, and the seraphon not only are named after christian angels but also still have all those aztec sacred imagery. Maybe its my ocd or maybe im looking too much into this, but is this fine, un-p.c. or just lazy design?
There's nothing at all inherently wrong with drawing from Christian imagery. GW has been doing it in both 40k and Fantasy for... most of their existance? How they approach it defines the quality.
Tailessine wrote: Thats a good point- the stormcast really are reminiscent of renaissance christian imagery, and the seraphon not only are named after christian angels but also still have all those aztec sacred imagery. Maybe its my ocd or maybe im looking too much into this, but is this fine, un-p.c. or just lazy design?
First, the Stormcast are obviously based on Greek mythology, right down to Zeus/Sigmar's lightning bolt. Since nobody actively practices Greek or Aztec religions anymore, it's pretty much open season. At least it's not more Tolkien.
Second, political correctness is... a discussion probably best left to other, more progressive forums. Needless to say, not everybody agrees. Personally, I think that if Warhammer had a hero named Jesusmar who turned people's blood into wine and bludgeoned others with an infinite number of fish, I'd think most people who play the game would be fine with that as the majority of fundamentalists, who would be the type to take offense, would have already avoided Warhammer due to devil worshiping, witchcraft, and necromancy. Also, Slaanesh. There's a reason why Sunday mornings are when my FLGS hosts GW games.
toasteroven wrote: I think part of my disappointment with the seraphon is... I just don't really have interest in the Slann. And now they're the only ones?
Whatever, skinks 4 life.
Haha, that's a fair point.
Tailessine wrote: Thats a good point- the stormcast really are reminiscent of renaissance christian imagery, and the seraphon not only are named after christian angels but also still have all those aztec sacred imagery. Maybe its my ocd or maybe im looking too much into this, but is this fine, un-p.c. or just lazy design?
Also take into account the lovecraft nature of the Seraphon that the lizardmen played off of due to their service to the old ones. A species of creatures that travel the cosmos through strange crafts and eldritch powers while creating creatures from pure thought that not only act on their own accord, defying the logic "I think therefore I am", but also evolve and change.
It's very interesting.
Also, not sure why they can't be Aztec anymore. Where did the aesthetic come from in the first place? A number of extremely intelligent beings that traveled through dimensions. Have the servants become the masters in that case?
only bloody combat between what is right now essentially a war of angels and deamons where normal people are ignored.
It's like mortals are sitting on the sidelines watching as the legendary celestial warriors of all the religions of Earth clash.
Not much the mortals can do right now. Chaos controls all the paths between the realms and have corrupted some to just lead to their own realm. Once the Stormcast have gained back most of the realms then we will probably see more mortal activity.
I think the memories thing is neat. But I'm not quite as fussed about having the official fluff be a certain way. I get most of my fluff/feelings on that front from looking at the models and to an extent how they play. I kind of dig the "fever dream" setting of Age of Sigmar.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the sigmarines pretty vague in their fluff too? No one's sure exactly where they come from, blah blah, heroes from beyond, blah blah, save the day?
Assuming the writers aren't talent-less hacks rushing out expensive garbage... I can see how having mysterious things in your lore is great. It captures fans imagination. It creates discussion, theories, arguments. It helps to draw people into your lore, looking for clues, and lapping up the slightest scrap of information.
However, people actually have to give a damn about your universe first. If people don't like your lore, they'll look at your vague handwaving and think you're a talent-less hack rushing out expensive garbage...
*They are great warriors killed by chaos whose souls have been gathered by Sigmar and reforged into new bodies and given armor forged from Sigmarite. The substance from the core of the old world itself.
* The great warrior souls can be from any race or gender.
* They are sent by Sigmar's power to strike as a destructive lightning bolt that allows them to hit at the heart of the enemy.
* Once killed, their souls make their way back to Sigmar's realm to be restored to a new body. The Relictors are important for helping them find their way or the daemons of chaos can devour the wayward souls.
* Upon being reforged they find they have lost some of their memories, emotions and humanity. This stacks with every time they are killed until they are emotionless killing machines.
* This has been revealed to be Nagash's doing for he has been cheated of those souls that rightfully belonged to him, yhe god of death. Only the Relictors are immune as they have come from the realm of death.
*They are great warriors killed by chaos whose souls have been gathered by Sigmar and reforged into new bodies and given armor forged from Sigmarite. The substance from the core of the old world itself.
* The great warrior souls can be from any race or gender.
* They are sent by Sigmar's power to strike as a destructive lightning bolt that allows them to hit at the heart of the enemy.
* Once killed, their souls make their way back to Sigmar's realm to be restored to a new body. The Relictors are important for helping them find their way or the daemons of chaos can devour the wayward souls.
* Upon being reforged they find they have lost some of their memories, emotions and humanity. This stacks with every time they are killed until they are emotionless killing machines.
* This has been revealed to be Nagash's doing for he has been cheated of those souls that rightfully belonged to him, yhe god of death. Only the Relictors are immune as they have come from the realm of death.
I think that sums up everything.
To me that doesn't sound very well fleshed out at all, it sounds like we know about how they were created, fight, and 'die'. Nothing else. Unless there is nothing else in which case they are as fleshed out as they are going to get but are very 2 dimensional and uninteresting.
Do we know if they ever take off their armour and walk around sigmaheim, chatting with the refugees there? There is the trumpet model that has exposed lips so presumably we know they actually are flesh inside the armour, does that mean they eat? What is sigmarine cuisine like? Do they have art? Culture of any sort at all?
*They are great warriors killed by chaos whose souls have been gathered by Sigmar and reforged into new bodies and given armor forged from Sigmarite. The substance from the core of the old world itself.
* The great warrior souls can be from any race or gender.
* They are sent by Sigmar's power to strike as a destructive lightning bolt that allows them to hit at the heart of the enemy.
* Once killed, their souls make their way back to Sigmar's realm to be restored to a new body. The Relictors are important for helping them find their way or the daemons of chaos can devour the wayward souls.
* Upon being reforged they find they have lost some of their memories, emotions and humanity. This stacks with every time they are killed until they are emotionless killing machines.
* This has been revealed to be Nagash's doing for he has been cheated of those souls that rightfully belonged to him, yhe god of death. Only the Relictors are immune as they have come from the realm of death.
I think that sums up everything.
To me that doesn't sound very well fleshed out at all, it sounds like we know about how they were created, fight, and 'die'. Nothing else. Unless there is nothing else in which case they are as fleshed out as they are going to get but are very 2 dimensional and uninteresting.
Do we know if they ever take off their armour and walk around sigmaheim, chatting with the refugees there? There is the trumpet model that has exposed lips so presumably we know they actually are flesh inside the armour, does that mean they eat? What is sigmarine cuisine like? Do they have art? Culture of any sort at all?
Actually, here's a thought - how do dwarf and elf Stormcast get along? Or dwarf and orc Stormcast, for that matter? THAT could provide some interesting storytelling. I know they're supposed to have their memories locked away or something, but it took them all of one novel to show that that can be broken for dramatic effect, so...
I think the problem for me with AoS being 'fleshed out' right now is that I enjoy P&P RPGs, and if I were GMing such an RPG I could not drop a group into the AoS setting right now and have any idea what to do. There is not an established map, with established cities or even established races.
If a player asks to be an Elf what would I tell him?
How am I expected to know what a dwarf town looks like these days?
Or, as Spinner touched on, how would a dwarf town react to an elf walking in their gates?
Having areas to insert your own ideas is great, it's the most fun part of running an RPG in my opinion, but the absolute best settings are the well established ones that still allow you to do that, and also give you a baseline of how X interacts with Y. AoS is far too open with far too much unknowns and 'make it up, the possibilities are endless' kind of talk. At this point I see no reason for me to use AoS as a setting over inventing my own from scratch, and this mentality really carries back over into the wargame too.
Why invent something for AoS when I can invent it for WHFB or KoW if I have to do the creative work myself?
Hmm, well the only thing I can say is to give it time. More time for more fluff to be added and new backgrounds to be revealed.
Until then, just go with what you're familiar with. Be it in the old world or making a land/town/kingdom in the current setting that's very basic and can grow with the added fluff.
How much time is 'more time' going to be? We're...what, three months in? Four?
Doing things in stages can work sometimes. With a brand new game with ambitions toward giant, expansive background trying to cover a large number of (very expensive!) factions, replacing an older, well-established game with a fairly attached fanbase, dragging things out with 'wait and see' can do far more harm than good. There's too many unanswered questions, and the ones that get answered...tend not to have very popular answers.
Yeah I have to agree there, I think this far into the release of a new game it is perfectly reasonable for people to stop considering 'wait and see' a legitimate answer.
We don't know how long we are supposed to wait for answers, we can't even be sure answers are coming (the lizardmen book sure as hell didn't answer as much as most of us hoped, or even really expected).
Spinner wrote: How much time is 'more time' going to be? We're...what, three months in? Four?
Doing things in stages can work sometimes. With a brand new game with ambitions toward giant, expansive background trying to cover a large number of (very expensive!) factions, replacing an older, well-established game with a fairly attached fanbase, dragging things out with 'wait and see' can do far more harm than good. There's too many unanswered questions, and the ones that get answered...tend not to have very popular answers.
- We're four months into a game that GW intends to support for years to come. So while it isn't too early to form opinions on what is there, it's a bit early to form opinions on what isn't there. Patience is an endangered species on the internet, I know, but come on! Four months! It'll take longer than that for the backlash against the new Star Wars movie to start.
- People complained when GW released two giant $70 campaign guides too closely together. They aren't dragging things out. They are giving people a chance to catch up. I don't intend to buy every AoS release by a long shot, but I'm still catching up on the releases I want from the first few months. And they just released the Seraphon, which I'm very interested in, but can't afford right now. You need time to buy things, assemble and paint them, and play with them before you worry about your next purchases. Flooding the market with new releases when people aren't ready to buy them would negatively affect their sales potential. They have literally released THOUSANDS of dollars worth of stuff in the past four months.
- All the rumors point to a second AoS release window in December and running through early 2016. What's in this window, nobody really knows (other than that sweet looking Archaon model), but GW's secrecy shouldn't be taken as laziness or complacency. Even if the models were done months ago, the models need to be painted and photographed, the lore needs to be finalized, the boxes need to be designed, the novels need to be written, the battletomes need to be laid out, the White Dwarfs need to copywritten. The releases are coordinated across multiple products in multiple mediums. Logistically, it's actually quite impressive and well beyond the capabilities of most other game companies (miniature or otherwise). The fact is, problems happen during this stuff (I'm sure they have back up releases that they specifically hold for these occasions), and by only announcing the stuff when it is literally ready to ship out the door, they avoid the backlash when little Timmy has to wait six months to get his Tau models but was promised them in October - the secrecy issue is a low grumble, but missed promises are a "slap in the face to fans" and one more excuse to insult GW on the internet.
- Why spread the lore out so much? Because they chose to make AoS a campaign orientated game. The campaigns are written for the available models. It could also be that they haven't finished writing the fluff yet, or that they are deliberately building up the mystery to drum up support for new releases. I mean, I don't know what a fyre slayer is, but I'll be glued to rumors section when the model leaks start coming out. I can't tell you their reasons, but I can say, it will all come out eventually. Probably in the next two years or so. And after it is all out, then nobody will be in the dark again. So this is a temporary problem that is best served with patience.
Sqorgar wrote: - We're four months into a game that GW intends to support for years to come. So while it isn't too early to form opinions on what is there, it's a bit early to form opinions on what isn't there. Patience is an endangered species on the internet, I know, but come on! Four months! It'll take longer than that for the backlash against the new Star Wars movie to start.
The flip side of that is that a brand new game was released without adequate support (cos what's a game without fluff) and here we are four whole months later without the proper framework in place any game should have at release. Seriously, two pages of fluff about each faction in your core rulebook, minimum, we got a one or two paragraph blurb covering only the new larger alliances. I'm not sure there is even an official answer yet for if my Dark Elves even exist as a separate faction from elves in general, the only response I have gotten from GW representatives is that I can make up a reason for Dark Elves to be there. This is blatantly insufficient support for a new game.
Sqorgar wrote: - People complained when GW released two giant $70 campaign guides too closely together. They aren't dragging things out. They are giving people a chance to catch up. I don't intend to buy every AoS release by a long shot, but I'm still catching up on the releases I want from the first few months. And they just released the Seraphon, which I'm very interested in, but can't afford right now. You need time to buy things, assemble and paint them, and play with them before you worry about your next purchases. Flooding the market with new releases when people aren't ready to buy them would negatively affect their sales potential. They have literally released THOUSANDS of dollars worth of stuff in the past four months.
If that is indeed their plan, then it is a flawed one, simple as that. Seriously, think about it, someone who does not play any of the 2 armies (or the two half armies) currently featured in the campaign books has 2 choices, spend a ton of money to keep up with a progressing story that does not cover anything they are actually interested in but they need to read to know anything about the setting, or they can sit here in the dark only knowing what little comes up here on the forums and have no bloody clue what's going on until something is released for their faction (if it ever is). Your entire basis for the point of GW allowing people to catch up is built upon the idea that people want to buy every book for AoS, given the prices of those books I daresay it isn't just giving them time to get the money together but a lot of people who might have been interested are just writing it off as too expensive.
Sqorgar wrote: - All the rumors point to a second AoS release window in December and running through early 2016. What's in this window, nobody really knows (other than that sweet looking Archaon model), but GW's secrecy shouldn't be taken as laziness or complacency. Even if the models were done months ago, the models need to be painted and photographed, the lore needs to be finalized, the boxes need to be designed, the novels need to be written, the battletomes need to be laid out, the White Dwarfs need to copywritten. The releases are coordinated across multiple products in multiple mediums. Logistically, it's actually quite impressive and well beyond the capabilities of most other game companies (miniature or otherwise). The fact is, problems happen during this stuff (I'm sure they have back up releases that they specifically hold for these occasions), and by only announcing the stuff when it is literally ready to ship out the door, they avoid the backlash when little Timmy has to wait six months to get his Tau models but was promised them in October - the secrecy issue is a low grumble, but missed promises are a "slap in the face to fans" and one more excuse to insult GW on the internet.
GW's secrecy isn't being taken as laziness or complacency, it is being taken as a policy that is bad for the consumer. No one is questioning their production capacity and speed, we just don't like how long it is taking to get how little we have. Ultimately if the customer deems it unacceptable and doesn't buy the product when it is finally released that's GW's problem and one they might need to address.
Sqorgar wrote: - Why spread the lore out so much? Because they chose to make AoS a campaign orientated game. The campaigns are written for the available models. It could also be that they haven't finished writing the fluff yet, or that they are deliberately building up the mystery to drum up support for new releases. I mean, I don't know what a fyre slayer is, but I'll be glued to rumors section when the model leaks start coming out. I can't tell you their reasons, but I can say, it will all come out eventually. Probably in the next two years or so. And after it is all out, then nobody will be in the dark again. So this is a temporary problem that is best served with patience.
Eventually. Probably. That really doesn't help anyone. This isn't building excitement, it is building frustration. It's funny actually, I think a lot of it could have been avoided if they just took a leaf out of Privateer Press' book and have the ongoing evolving story but make sure every new book release has something for every army in it. How much better would it be if between the two campaign books we have every single race got a little time in the limelight to show what they are doing, how they have changed, and even just prove they still exist?
I loved the lizardmen. They were the first and greatest of all lizard/draconian 28mm armies imho. I always liked their style, the sculpts, the storyline, etc.
I was sad to see the lizardmen end the way they did in the end times. The Seraphon 'reincarnation' works for me. I like the fact that I get the same style, models, more great art, etc. As for the storyline, GW has changed fluff around for years, the new fluff doesn't bother me.
I actually like the fluff in that my lizards are now immortal 'angels' (maybe we will see them in 40k then?). Now your opponent kills your favorite character and does a dance? You can rest well knowing that he was sent back to the heavenly realm only to be remade and summoned back to the mortal realms!
I am sad to see special characters go away. I am assuming this is a thing of the future, as the only army to have named characters still living is chaos (both demons and warriors). I did enjoy special characters...
I am sad to see special characters go away. I am assuming this is a thing of the future, as the only army to have named characters still living is chaos (both demons and warriors). I did enjoy special characters...
Spinner wrote: How much time is 'more time' going to be? We're...what, three months in? Four?
Doing things in stages can work sometimes. With a brand new game with ambitions toward giant, expansive background trying to cover a large number of (very expensive!) factions, replacing an older, well-established game with a fairly attached fanbase, dragging things out with 'wait and see' can do far more harm than good. There's too many unanswered questions, and the ones that get answered...tend not to have very popular answers.
- We're four months into a game that GW intends to support for years to come.
Are you sure about that? I mean, up until the last book of End Times, there were no official statements that WHFB was being canned, and even then, it was just a vague, faux-portentous statement in the back (a herald of stylistic choices to come...)
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the space marine statue has retaken his place outside GWHQ in a couple years.
I have no problem with campaigns. I love campaigns. There needs to be a basic framework, though. You can't just toss people into this deliberately vast new setting with all these factions and expect them to continually shell out lots of money for campaign books that probably don't involve their army of choice over and over again. That is not going to draw more players than WHFB. That is not going to make more money than it did. And it's not going to motivate people to stick with the company.
I mean, it's been a while since I've kept up with it, but Magic: the Gathering switched settings every few releases, and they made damn sure people could learn about the setting if they wanted. They had free articles on their website delving into the world, the major players, the different factions and what they each wanted, even the design choices and major themes of the release block...and I would argue that the background is far, far less important than it is in a miniatures game like GW sells. If they could do it, why not GW? Hell, GWused to do it. Why stop when they're trying to get a new game off the ground? Why shoot themselves in the foot like this?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the sigmarines pretty vague in their fluff too? No one's sure exactly where they come from, blah blah, heroes from beyond, blah blah, save the day?
Assuming the writers aren't talent-less hacks rushing out expensive garbage... I can see how having mysterious things in your lore is great. It captures fans imagination. It creates discussion, theories, arguments. It helps to draw people into your lore, looking for clues, and lapping up the slightest scrap of information.
However, people actually have to give a damn about your universe first. If people don't like your lore, they'll look at your vague handwaving and think you're a talent-less hack rushing out expensive garbage...
Just caught sight of this, and I'm honestly not sure that we can fault the writers on this one. I (and a number of people in this thread, I'd guess - congrats again to Matt!) tried my hand at the freelance author ad GW put out, and the experience was fairly eye-opening with regards to their creative process. They want a very, very specific type of fluff, with a set list of checkboxes that have to be filled, and I can see how complying with their guidelines can lead to the flaws in the 'GW style' pretty easily. I wouldn't think it's impossible to work around, but I'd also think that quite a bit of the frustrating vagueness is dictated from on high.
jonolikespie wrote: []The flip side of that is that a brand new game was released without adequate support (cos what's a game without fluff) and here we are four whole months later without the proper framework in place any game should have at release. Seriously, two pages of fluff about each faction in your core rulebook, minimum, we got a one or two paragraph blurb covering only the new larger alliances. I'm not sure there is even an official answer yet for if my Dark Elves even exist as a separate faction from elves in general, the only response I have gotten from GW representatives is that I can make up a reason for Dark Elves to be there. This is blatantly insufficient support for a new game.
Please remember that GW went out of their way to provide FREE rules for EVERY existing faction in the game at launch. You can play your Dark Elves right now. For free. That seems like "adequate" support to me. You can learn some patience regarding the fluff. The world doesn't revolve around you and the armies you play.
If that is indeed their plan, then it is a flawed one, simple as that. Seriously, think about it, someone who does not play any of the 2 armies (or the two half armies) currently featured in the campaign books has 2 choices, spend a ton of money to keep up with a progressing story that does not cover anything they are actually interested in but they need to read to know anything about the setting, or they can sit here in the dark only knowing what little comes up here on the forums and have no bloody clue what's going on until something is released for their faction (if it ever is). Your entire basis for the point of GW allowing people to catch up is built upon the idea that people want to buy every book for AoS, given the prices of those books I daresay it isn't just giving them time to get the money together but a lot of people who might have been interested are just writing it off as too expensive.
They can play with their hundreds of dollars worth of models without paying a single additional cent. But if they do want to buy every book, as I do, then they need time to do so. GW isn"t going to put out several years worth of releases in one month. It"s selfish to expect that.
GW's secrecy isn't being taken as laziness or complacency, it is being taken as a policy that is bad for the consumer. No one is questioning their production capacity and speed, we just don't like how long it is taking to get how little we have. Ultimately if the customer deems it unacceptable and doesn't buy the product when it is finally released that's GW's problem and one they might need to address.
You mean like, killing a game and replacing it with another game that has broader appeal? You guys don"t seem to care for that either. Rome wasn't"t built in a day. Patience, young grasshopper. A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.
Eventually. Probably. That really doesn't help anyone. This isn't building excitement, it is building frustration. It's funny actually, I think a lot of it could have been avoided if they just took a leaf out of Privateer Press' book and have the ongoing evolving story but make sure every new book release has something for every army in it. How much better would it be if between the two campaign books we have every single race got a little time in the limelight to show what they are doing, how they have changed, and even just prove they still exist?
The first WMH book had 4 factions with about 12 units each, released over the course of a YEAR. Even now, with 12 or so factions, they are not treated equally. Months go by without releases for some factions. PP is releasing a new book, but some factions still haven"t gotten their models from the last one. And it took two years for Convergeance to get their entire lines of models, and they haven"t got an update since. Again, you want everything yesterday and don"t want to wait for it. You are comparing AoS to games that have been out for a decade, but had similarly constrained supply when they just started. GW is still moving at a rate and in a quantity that the other guys can"t touch, but you can"t wait 4 months for even the second release window without bitching.
Sqorgar wrote: Please remember that GW went out of their way to provide FREE rules for EVERY existing faction in the game at launch. You can play your Dark Elves right now. For free. That seems like "adequate" support to me. You can learn some patience regarding the fluff. The world doesn't revolve around you and the armies you play.
Seriously, Jon. The world doesn't revolve around you; it revolves around the Stormcast Eternals and Khornate Bloodbound. Haven't the last four months been enough to convince you of that? What can you possibly be thinking?
Sqorgar wrote: You mean like, killing a game and replacing it with another game that has broader appeal? You guys don"t seem to care for that either. Rome wasn't"t built in a day. Patience, young grasshopper. A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.
...does it have broader appeal? I've seen a few people who, like yourself, weren't interested in WHFB, pick up the game...but I've seen far more people quit. That's not broader, that's shifting and narrowing the focus.
Sqorgar wrote: They can play with their hundreds of dollars worth of models without paying a single additional cent. But if they do want to buy every book, as I do, then they need time to do so. GW isn"t going to put out several years worth of releases in one month. It"s selfish to expect that.
Sqorgar wrote: The first WMH book had 4 factions with about 12 units each, released over the course of a YEAR. Even now, with 12 or so factions, they are not treated equally. Months go by without releases for some factions. PP is releasing a new book, but some factions still haven"t gotten their models from the last one. And it took two years for Convergeance to get their entire lines of models, and they haven"t got an update since. Again, you want everything yesterday and don"t want to wait for it. You are comparing AoS to games that have been out for a decade, but had similarly constrained supply when they just started. GW is still moving at a rate and in a quantity that the other guys can"t touch, but you can"t wait 4 months for even the second release window without bitching.
People aren't asking for full releases for every faction within a few months, although that would have gone a long way toward keeping interest in the game. People are asking for more than a paragraph about their army. People are asking to get better than "OOOOOH where is the Dark Prince?!" when they ask what their faction is doing. People are asking for a story hook to hang their metaphorical hat on - a hat, by the way, that they have invested a great deal of money and time in.
jonolikespie wrote: []The flip side of that is that a brand new game was released without adequate support (cos what's a game without fluff) and here we are four whole months later without the proper framework in place any game should have at release. Seriously, two pages of fluff about each faction in your core rulebook, minimum, we got a one or two paragraph blurb covering only the new larger alliances. I'm not sure there is even an official answer yet for if my Dark Elves even exist as a separate faction from elves in general, the only response I have gotten from GW representatives is that I can make up a reason for Dark Elves to be there. This is blatantly insufficient support for a new game.
Please remember that GW went out of their way to provide FREE rules for EVERY existing faction in the game at launch. You can play your Dark Elves right now. For free. That seems like "adequate" support to me. You can learn some patience regarding the fluff. The world doesn't revolve around you and the armies you play.
We literally do not know if Dark Elves will exist in the setting outside of the cop out answer of 'they can be if you imagine it', how can you possibly call that adequate support unless you of all people are suggesting the fluff is meaningless and it is the rules that are important.
jonolikespie wrote: Eventually. Probably. That really doesn't help anyone. This isn't building excitement, it is building frustration. It's funny actually, I think a lot of it could have been avoided if they just took a leaf out of Privateer Press' book and have the ongoing evolving story but make sure every new book release has something for every army in it. How much better would it be if between the two campaign books we have every single race got a little time in the limelight to show what they are doing, how they have changed, and even just prove they still exist?
The first WMH book had 4 factions with about 12 units each, released over the course of a YEAR. Even now, with 12 or so factions, they are not treated equally. Months go by without releases for some factions. PP is releasing a new book, but some factions still haven"t gotten their models from the last one. And it took two years for Convergeance to get their entire lines of models, and they haven"t got an update since. Again, you want everything yesterday and don"t want to wait for it. You are comparing AoS to games that have been out for a decade, but had similarly constrained supply when they just started. GW is still moving at a rate and in a quantity that the other guys can"t touch, but you can"t wait 4 months for even the second release window without bitching.
I meant the fluff. I don't know how it was from Mk1 but I can pick up the current core book and get a good bit of intro fluff for each faction. I can then read the campaign narrative going on which will touch upon all of those factions and more rather than ignoring half of them in favour of the two fighting at the moment. It is the same with all the supplement books, each get their own fluff piece as well as being relevant to the progressing story (with the exception of convergence, because they were always intended to be a small side army that was never intended to be part of the main books).
This is a significantly better system than GW's current one.
Taking into consideration that the new big leak is Archaon on a new mount, I am almost completely convinced this Xmas will be completely and utterly about Chaos.
Which fluffwise will mean nothing new as Chaos is, ironically the big immutable shtick in whatever game GW sticks it in.
I guess Archaon coming will mean Chaos start winning and going on the counter offensive. Possibily opening the story for more Order factions to be introduced.
Bottle wrote: I guess Archaon coming will mean Chaos start winning and going on the counter offensive. Possibily opening the story for more Order factions to be introduced.
To be honest they should just make this xmas a huge Chaos bundle and get Chaos Daemons, Beastmen and Mortals all done in one huge go. It's not like they can't be used for 40k as well :p
Bottle wrote: I guess Archaon coming will mean Chaos start winning and going on the counter offensive. Possibily opening the story for more Order factions to be introduced.
Because they've not been there all along (right?), that there is a massive narrative fail.
We literally do not know if Dark Elves will exist in the setting outside of the cop out answer of 'they can be if you imagine it', how can you possibly call that adequate support unless you of all people are suggesting the fluff is meaningless and it is the rules that are important.
I'm not a fluff bunny by any stretch of the imagination. But I think options and variety are important, and a game which emphasizes narratives in scenarios in order to provide that variety is a good thing. So sick of playing Steamroller rules in WMH, over and over and over again.
As for the Dark Elves, they have rules and you can play them. The four pages of rules have no fluff whatsoever. They are a ruleset for playing the game. The fluff comes from the campaign books and the unit profiles. The Dark Elves have all the rules necessary to play them along with 30 years of preexisting fluff. If you want to play AoS in the Old World, there is literally nothing stopping you. But the fluff going forward may not support the Dark Elves. Life is change. Go with the flow.
I meant the fluff. I don't know how it was from Mk1 but I can pick up the current core book and get a good bit of intro fluff for each faction. I can then read the campaign narrative going on which will touch upon all of those factions and more rather than ignoring half of them in favour of the two fighting at the moment. It is the same with all the supplement books, each get their own fluff piece as well as being relevant to the progressing story (with the exception of convergence, because they were always intended to be a small side army that was never intended to be part of the main books).
Mk1 begins with a 20 pg story (not a very good one), with 4-5 pg faction intros, and a few paragraphs about each unit. Warmachine was also a spinoff of PP's DnD campaign setting (Monsternomicon, Witchfire Trilogy) so it had extensive background material before WMH was even a twinkle in their eye, so WMH had a distinct fluff advantage over most new settings. Even then, it was still considerably LESS than AoS provides, as AoS provides two 150 pg campaign books, four battletomes, a dozen novellas or so, and so on.
The problem is, AoS has a dozen factions but is choosing to focus on just a few right now - kind of like how it took a few years before Hordes showed up as playable factions, or Retribution (which was part of the Mk2 relaunch). The Sigmar universe is not a fully formed society with countries, pre-existing heroes, borders and landmarks, and so on. It is a universe destroyed, all civilization destroyed and all heroes taken by Sigmar into his rebellion. Right now, there's just not a lot of lore to speak of because this is how the writers chose to write the fluff. And while that may be frustrating to you, personally, it's not a bad direction for a game with long term support.
With the campaign focus, the players get to be part of rebuilding the world after the tides of Chaos have been pushed back. They get to be there when cities are founded and heroes are created. They get to watch as alliances are formed and broken. Every betrayal and conflict, the players get to see happening as it happens. You don't just read about the history of this fictional world, you help create it. And I think that's pretty cool.
For one thing, I have trouble reading history lessons on imaginary worlds. These guys were mad at these guys, then these other guys came and beat everyone up, until centuries later, those first guys decided to work together to fight back using technology given to them by one of the ascended twins, and then there was an angry dragon... That's just backstory. But to play scenarios where the enemies come in and defeat my army? To be there when alliances are formed? To gain new units based on stolen technology, and field ascended beings in my army directly? That's cool. I like that. And maybe not everybody does, and that's okay. The Iron Kingdoms RPG has source books which describe the phases of the moon and each of the seasons, so there's something for everyone in this crazy world.
We literally do not know if Dark Elves will exist in the setting outside of the cop out answer of 'they can be if you imagine it', how can you possibly call that adequate support unless you of all people are suggesting the fluff is meaningless and it is the rules that are important.
I'm not a fluff bunny by any stretch of the imagination. But I think options and variety are important, and a game which emphasizes narratives in scenarios in order to provide that variety is a good thing. So sick of playing Steamroller rules in WMH, over and over and over again.
As for the Dark Elves, they have rules and you can play them. The four pages of rules have no fluff whatsoever. They are a ruleset for playing the game. The fluff comes from the campaign books and the unit profiles. The Dark Elves have all the rules necessary to play them along with 30 years of preexisting fluff. If you want to play AoS in the Old World, there is literally nothing stopping you. But the fluff going forward may not support the Dark Elves. Life is change. Go with the flow.
See, I just find that to be a really insufficient answer (even if it is better than the one I got from GW themselves). There is literally nothing stopping me playing 8th ed either, or using my dark elf models in KoW. When it comes down to it there is literally nothing stopping me doing a lot of things. You know what else there is literally nothing of? An incentive to play my Dark Elves in AoS.
jonolikespie wrote: You know what else there is literally nothing of? An incentive to play my Dark Elves in AoS.
I'm a parent. I have kids who won't get dressed in the morning without the promise of a treat. But I'm assuming you are an adult and don't need other people to encourage you to do the things you want to do. The whole Skinner Box approach to game design is a failed experiment (lucrative though it may have been), and the idea that a game designer must give you a reason for you to play a game in a particular way - that you would BLAME them for lacking it - speaks volumes.
The problem with extrinsic motivation is that ultimately, you end up engaging in behavior for the reward rather than for the behavior. If, at some point, the rewards dry up, then your motivation for doing something ceases to exist. I'm starting to feel like some miniature gamers are horses that have been raised in captivity, knowing how to feed themselves only when the carrot or stick tells them to. Age of Sigmar releases them free into the wild, where nobody beats them but nobody rewards them either, only for them to starve to death within a week. As they lie there, light fading from their eyes, they look back upon the beatings they received with fondness - it was the structure they desired.
jonolikespie wrote: You know what else there is literally nothing of? An incentive to play my Dark Elves in AoS.
I'm a parent. I have kids who won't get dressed in the morning without the promise of a treat. But I'm assuming you are an adult and don't need other people to encourage you to do the things you want to do. The whole Skinner Box approach to game design is a failed experiment (lucrative though it may have been), and the idea that a game designer must give you a reason for you to play a game in a particular way - that you would BLAME them for lacking it - speaks volumes.
The problem with extrinsic motivation is that ultimately, you end up engaging in behavior for the reward rather than for the behavior. If, at some point, the rewards dry up, then your motivation for doing something ceases to exist. I'm starting to feel like some miniature gamers are horses that have been raised in captivity, knowing how to feed themselves only when the carrot or stick tells them to. Age of Sigmar releases them free into the wild, where nobody beats them but nobody rewards them either, only for them to starve to death within a week. As they lie there, light fading from their eyes, they look back upon the beatings they received with fondness - it was the structure they desired.
...
How, uh.
How is putting a modicum of effort into producing a game more than a handful of people want to play a Skinner Box?
jonolikespie wrote: You know what else there is literally nothing of? An incentive to play my Dark Elves in AoS.
I'm a parent. I have kids who won't get dressed in the morning without the promise of a treat. But I'm assuming you are an adult and don't need other people to encourage you to do the things you want to do. The whole Skinner Box approach to game design is a failed experiment (lucrative though it may have been), and the idea that a game designer must give you a reason for you to play a game in a particular way - that you would BLAME them for lacking it - speaks volumes.
The problem with extrinsic motivation is that ultimately, you end up engaging in behavior for the reward rather than for the behavior. If, at some point, the rewards dry up, then your motivation for doing something ceases to exist. I'm starting to feel like some miniature gamers are horses that have been raised in captivity, knowing how to feed themselves only when the carrot or stick tells them to. Age of Sigmar releases them free into the wild, where nobody beats them but nobody rewards them either, only for them to starve to death within a week. As they lie there, light fading from their eyes, they look back upon the beatings they received with fondness - it was the structure they desired.
...
How, uh.
How is putting a modicum of effort into producing a game more than a handful of people want to play a Skinner Box?
For some people, it is.
Clearly
Automatically Appended Next Post: I find it interesting that apparently now we are moving to the notion that players who prefer FB over AoS are clearly lacking in motivation and are automatons that need to be commanded by someone.
It's obvious that we can't choose a specific game design over another just because we prefer that one, right? That's obviously why we are all embracing what GW is trying to shove down our throats... we are mindless.
jonolikespie wrote: You know what else there is literally nothing of? An incentive to play my Dark Elves in AoS.
I'm a parent. I have kids who won't get dressed in the morning without the promise of a treat. But I'm assuming you are an adult and don't need other people to encourage you to do the things you want to do. The whole Skinner Box approach to game design is a failed experiment (lucrative though it may have been), and the idea that a game designer must give you a reason for you to play a game in a particular way - that you would BLAME them for lacking it - speaks volumes.
The problem with extrinsic motivation is that ultimately, you end up engaging in behavior for the reward rather than for the behavior. If, at some point, the rewards dry up, then your motivation for doing something ceases to exist. I'm starting to feel like some miniature gamers are horses that have been raised in captivity, knowing how to feed themselves only when the carrot or stick tells them to. Age of Sigmar releases them free into the wild, where nobody beats them but nobody rewards them either, only for them to starve to death within a week. As they lie there, light fading from their eyes, they look back upon the beatings they received with fondness - it was the structure they desired.
It is late here so I am not braining at 100% but I can't seem to make sense of this. Your whole argument seems to be based on the underlined part. I know many a people who would disagree with you about my status as an adult, but your entire argument seems to be built on that one little assumption that I want to play AoS. I don't, because I have no incentive to play. Because nothing is motivating me, but I am not starving in the wild, I am quite happy in the next field over playing Warmachine or Infinity.
jonolikespie wrote: You know what else there is literally nothing of? An incentive to play my Dark Elves in AoS.
I'm a parent. I have kids who won't get dressed in the morning without the promise of a treat. But I'm assuming you are an adult and don't need other people to encourage you to do the things you want to do. The whole Skinner Box approach to game design is a failed experiment (lucrative though it may have been), and the idea that a game designer must give you a reason for you to play a game in a particular way - that you would BLAME them for lacking it - speaks volumes.
The problem with extrinsic motivation is that ultimately, you end up engaging in behavior for the reward rather than for the behavior. If, at some point, the rewards dry up, then your motivation for doing something ceases to exist. I'm starting to feel like some miniature gamers are horses that have been raised in captivity, knowing how to feed themselves only when the carrot or stick tells them to. Age of Sigmar releases them free into the wild, where nobody beats them but nobody rewards them either, only for them to starve to death within a week. As they lie there, light fading from their eyes, they look back upon the beatings they received with fondness - it was the structure they desired.
That's an interesting analogy! Thank you for explaining to us why we are so stupid, that we cannot feed ourselves, and miss getting beaten while we die out in a field.
In the entire breadth of my wargaming experience, I have never done anything other than pitched battles at tournaments, and now I know why I'm lost and angry!
Its good to finally know that my issues with AoS have nothing to do with my age and experience, but rather I have the intelligence of your child who will only get dressed with the promise of a treat. I'm glad you took the time out from your day to explain to me why I'm so dumb.
BRB, gonna go eat some crayons before screaming about my missing blanky.
Yeah, sure. you come on this board right around the time AoS drops and just act like anyone that doesn't see the brilliance of it is an idiot. You refuse to see any other point of view, and just basically start fights with your pedantic, judgmental attitude.
Hell, I hate AoS but I'm still trying to make it work, I'm not just complaining to complain.
You just type like you're teaching an English 101 class in a community college to a bunch of freshman who don't care. A lot of the people you are talking too have several decades of wargaming experience across many games and game companies, as I'm sure you do too. Stop acting like we are 12.
jonolikespie wrote: You know what else there is literally nothing of? An incentive to play my Dark Elves in AoS.
I'm a parent. I have kids who won't get dressed in the morning without the promise of a treat. But I'm assuming you are an adult and don't need other people to encourage you to do the things you want to do. The whole Skinner Box approach to game design is a failed experiment (lucrative though it may have been), and the idea that a game designer must give you a reason for you to play a game in a particular way - that you would BLAME them for lacking it - speaks volumes.
The problem with extrinsic motivation is that ultimately, you end up engaging in behavior for the reward rather than for the behavior. If, at some point, the rewards dry up, then your motivation for doing something ceases to exist. I'm starting to feel like some miniature gamers are horses that have been raised in captivity, knowing how to feed themselves only when the carrot or stick tells them to. Age of Sigmar releases them free into the wild, where nobody beats them but nobody rewards them either, only for them to starve to death within a week. As they lie there, light fading from their eyes, they look back upon the beatings they received with fondness - it was the structure they desired.
Yeah, sure. you come on this board right around the time AoS drops and just act like anyone that doesn't see the brilliance of it is an idiot. You refuse to see any other point of view, and just basically start fights with your pedantic, judgmental attitude.
Hell, I hate AoS but I'm still trying to make it work, I'm not just complaining to complain.
You just type like you're teaching an English 101 class in a community college to a bunch of freshman who don't care. A lot of the people you are talking too have several decades of wargaming experience across many games and game companies, as I'm sure you do too. Stop acting like we are 12.
First, seeing one's point of view and agreeing with it are two different things.
Second, there are plenty of posts mentioning "if you don't like reading AoS critique, you're acting childish - suck it up, it's a free forum". It goes both ways.
There are a lot of instances where offense is being taken without any need. This is one. There is a report button, there are mods.
Third, I hope no one takes offense at this, but - someone may be acting like he's speaking with 12 years old because he perceives they're acting as such.
Fourth, it's mighty time for me clicking the report button so a mod stops this before it's too late.
In fairness, his latest point appears to be 'you're all abused farm animals', which isn't exactly conducive to polite discussion.
I would have gone for a Harley Quinn/Joker analogy, myself. We knew GW was nuts, and WE were nuts for letting them manipulate us into spending more and more for the same stuff while things just got crazier and crazier, but we went along with it anyway because we were having too much fun. And then one day they just snapped and blew up everything...so we're off hanging out with AMantic Waller and Ivyfinity, and despite the obvious flaws, we're better off for it.
I'm not sure who the people still playing AoS are in this comparison, but I'll let you know when I've figured it out!
Spinner wrote: In fairness, his latest point appears to be 'you're all abused farm animals', which isn't exactly conducive to polite discussion.
I would have gone for a Harley Quinn/Joker analogy, myself. We knew GW was nuts, and WE were nuts for letting them manipulate us into spending more and more for the same stuff while things just got crazier and crazier, but we went along with it anyway because we were having too much fun. And then one day they just snapped and blew up everything...so we're off hanging out with AMantic Waller and Ivyfinity, and despite the obvious flaws, we're better off for it.
I'm not sure who the people still playing AoS are in this comparison, but I'll let you know when I've figured it out!
Yeah, sure. you come on this board right around the time AoS drops and just act like anyone that doesn't see the brilliance of it is an idiot. You refuse to see any other point of view, and just basically start fights with your pedantic, judgmental attitude.
That's just not true. I'm not pedantic.
Look, I believe that the best way to understand your beliefs is to test them. It's one thing to just buy into a belief, but it is another to pit it against another in debate. Only when a belief has been battered and beaten by the opposition and come out stronger and more assured can you truly say that you believe it with all your heart. The fact is, maybe Age of Sigmar isn't a great game, and maybe the reason I like it simple subjectivity. The only way that I can know whether or not I know that Age of Sigmar is every bit the game I believe it to be is to constantly test that belief. Which I do. Because I do like the game and I do think that the choices it made were brave and interesting. And I'm willing to test that belief on the field of battle.
I've argued things in this forum that I don't personally agree with. And I've argued against things that I absolutely do. Understanding doesn't come from agreement, but disagreement. It is only when you question your assumptions and tip your sacred cows that you see things for what they really are. So when a game comes out that undermines trusted truths, my ears perk up. No points you say? No balancing limitations? Micro rules? Sudden death? I previously had ideas of what wargames were, formed largely from Warmachine, and Age of Sigmar took a dump on all of them. But rather than getting defensive and angry, I saw an opportunity. What does it really mean to play a wargame? Age of Sigmar showed me things that I didn't expect or know I wanted, and it turned out that I like wargames more now than I did. I've taken a significant portion of my budget every month and now apply it to miniature games, where before I did not. As a writer and a game designer, I want to understand why that is better, and to do so, I must challenge myself, and be challenged, to find out.
I do, sometimes, have a little too much fun with my arguments. Sometimes, I see an exposed bit of flesh and I do sometimes take a bit of joy poking at it with a sharpened stick. I shouldn't, I know, but what good is a debate if you can't have fun?
The truth is, I'd get just as much out of arguing against AoS as I would arguing for it, but there's no shortage of opinions against it. I absolutely do see your point of view on Age of Sigmar, but I don't feel like that belief needs to be tested because it is ENTIRELY gut feeling. It's not objective or considered at all. How can someone hate the gameplay of a game they've never played? How can someone be objective about a game that replaced their favorite game that they've invested thousands into? How can someone give something a fair chance when they curse GW's very existence with every breath? They can't. I see your opinion, but I also see your opinion for what it really is. And I can't and don't share it because I can't and don't have the same biases.
There are really compelling arguments against AoS, but thus far, they've been rare in this forum. It has mostly amounted to "it sucks because I don't like it", with "I don't like it" largely being about transgressions that GW committed.
Yeah, sure. you come on this board right around the time AoS drops and just act like anyone that doesn't see the brilliance of it is an idiot. You refuse to see any other point of view, and just basically start fights with your pedantic, judgmental attitude.
That's just not true. I'm not pedantic.
Look, I believe that the best way to understand your beliefs is to test them. It's one thing to just buy into a belief, but it is another to pit it against another in debate. Only when a belief has been battered and beaten by the opposition and come out stronger and more assured can you truly say that you believe it with all your heart. The fact is, maybe Age of Sigmar isn't a great game, and maybe the reason I like it simple subjectivity. The only way that I can know whether or not I know that Age of Sigmar is every bit the game I believe it to be is to constantly test that belief. Which I do. Because I do like the game and I do think that the choices it made were brave and interesting. And I'm willing to test that belief on the field of battle.
I've argued things in this forum that I don't personally agree with. And I've argued against things that I absolutely do. Understanding doesn't come from agreement, but disagreement. It is only when you question your assumptions and tip your sacred cows that you see things for what they really are. So when a game comes out that undermines trusted truths, my ears perk up. No points you say? No balancing limitations? Micro rules? Sudden death? I previously had ideas of what wargames were, formed largely from Warmachine, and Age of Sigmar took a dump on all of them. But rather than getting defensive and angry, I saw an opportunity. What does it really mean to play a wargame? Age of Sigmar showed me things that I didn't expect or know I wanted, and it turned out that I like wargames more now than I did. I've taken a significant portion of my budget every month and now apply it to miniature games, where before I did not. As a writer and a game designer, I want to understand why that is better, and to do so, I must challenge myself, and be challenged, to find out.
I do, sometimes, have a little too much fun with my arguments. Sometimes, I see an exposed bit of flesh and I do sometimes take a bit of joy poking at it with a sharpened stick. I shouldn't, I know, but what good is a debate if you can't have fun?
The truth is, I'd get just as much out of arguing against AoS as I would arguing for it, but there's no shortage of opinions against it. I absolutely do see your point of view on Age of Sigmar, but I don't feel like that belief needs to be tested because it is ENTIRELY gut feeling. It's not objective or considered at all. How can someone hate the gameplay of a game they've never played? How can someone be objective about a game that replaced their favorite game that they've invested thousands into? How can someone give something a fair chance when they curse GW's very existence with every breath? They can't. I see your opinion, but I also see your opinion for what it really is. And I can't and don't share it because I can't and don't have the same biases.
There are really compelling arguments against AoS, but thus far, they've been rare in this forum. It has mostly amounted to "it sucks because I don't like it", with "I don't like it" largely being about transgressions that GW committed.
OK, so you like structured arguments and playing devils advocate, taking a contrary stance to further spirited debate.
Here's the thing, I play AoS. I've played it against enthusiastic newcomers, I've played against nieces and nephews as their first wargame, I've played linked campeign games against an opponent that I've played many times in the past, and I've played pickup games against strangers. I was out of fantasy for a while, I never played 8th or End Times, so I was looking forward to a new game. I literally had no skin in the game aside from time. If AoS sucked, all I have is a massive skaven army that I hadn't used in years anyway.
I also am a story driven player, my main thing in my local GW shop is encouraging new and old players alike to get their models painted. (one of my few pet peeves, painted models and terrain makes for a more enjoyable game, IMHO.) I haven't been to a tournament in years. I build large diorama-like models, I only play in a GW store, and only play/collect GW miniatures. I feel like I was 100% the target audience for AoS, and I feel it fell short.
All that being said, I have opinions and thoughts on the flaws on AoS. Does my current and past experiences not have any bearing at all? does the fact that I think it could really use a tune up make me wrong?
jonolikespie wrote: Yeah... would a chaos counter offensive not *reduce* the story options for introducing more factions too?
Not necessarily - absolutely not whiteknighting here either.
Chaos (primarily Khorne) have had the run of the mortal realms for thousands of years, but we know that all the other mortal factions are still there, most likely in hiding or some kind of fortified positions where they can hold out.
The Stormcast land in the Realm of Fire, giving Chaos a bloody nose for the first time in living memory. They press the advantage, push into the Realm of Life - assisting the Sylvaneth in fighting off the corruption of Pestilens and Nurgle - and assault the Realm of Metal to get Ghal Maraz back.
The Stormcast are the first crack in the dam, and sensing a weak spot, the Seraphon re-emerge/appear/whatever to fight the common foe.
From the Ghal Maraz recovery and a few other incidentals, the next plan in Sigmar's crusade to eradicate chaos is the All-points. I have no idea what this is, but given Archaon's just reappeared on a ridonkulous beastie, willing to bet it's a pretty big deal.
Chaos, recovering from the initial shock at a credible resistance, recover and begin to push back, focussing their forces.
In a situation like that, the mortal races coming out of hiding to lend their assistance works very well - the downtrodden people rising up in great numbers guided by a smaller liberating force is quite a worn trope, after all.
For example, the Aelf faction (even in previous incarnations) are pretty good with stealthy movement and are quite happy in areas naturally saturated with magic. Thematically they'd be right at home basing themselves out of the realm of shadow as hiding is more their forte rather than facing a siege, so a narrative move into the realm of shadow could see them appearing.
Seraphon appearing now lends to this I guess, as they don't 'live' anywhere - effectively you just flick a switch and they appear, so they don't have a home or other vested interest to protect.
Bottle wrote: I guess Archaon coming will mean Chaos start winning and going on the counter offensive. Possibily opening the story for more Order factions to be introduced.
Because they've not been there all along (right?), that there is a massive narrative fail.
Not quite sure what you mean to be honest.
And there's lots of narrative possibilities that open up, like the Duardin of Azyrheim deciding to sally forth into the other Mortal Realms and kick some butt and retake some lost holds. Of Aelves emerging out of hiding. Or the Cult of Sigmar following in the Stormcasts wake like a giant pilgrimage.
There could be many factions that have just knuckled down and weathered the storm through the age of chaos. When the chaos forces regroup under Archaon's banner it gives them some breathing room and courage to strike back.
Can't wait to be honest. So far AoS has focused on factions I don't care about. Other Order factions getting involved is exactly what I want :-)
If you can't play nice in here, I'm going to take your toys away.
Specifically: if you don't want to argue the other person's position politely, then your best option is not to post. Posting rudely is going to have negative implications on your continued ability to participate in any forum discussions.
OK, so you like structured arguments and playing devils advocate, taking a contrary stance to further spirited debate.
Absolutely.
Here's the thing, I play AoS. I've played it against enthusiastic newcomers, I've played against nieces and nephews as their first wargame, I've played linked campeign games against an opponent that I've played many times in the past, and I've played pickup games against strangers. I was out of fantasy for a while, I never played 8th or End Times, so I was looking forward to a new game. I literally had no skin in the game aside from time. If AoS sucked, all I have is a massive skaven army that I hadn't used in years anyway.
I also am a story driven player, my main thing in my local GW shop is encouraging new and old players alike to get their models painted. (one of my few pet peeves, painted models and terrain makes for a more enjoyable game, IMHO.) I haven't been to a tournament in years. I build large diorama-like models, I only play in a GW store, and only play/collect GW miniatures. I feel like I was 100% the target audience for AoS, and I feel it fell short.
All that being said, I have opinions and thoughts on the flaws on AoS. Does my current and past experiences not have any bearing at all? does the fact that I think it could really use a tune up make me wrong?
I'm sorry, but I don't remember what your specific complaints against AoS are, other than a hazy feeling of disappointment in its direction. I know you've stated a couple times that you do play and do try to enjoy it, but that it just isn't working for you - if I'm remembering that wrong, please correct me.
I think the thing to remember is that, ultimately, we are slaves to our own expectations, and when things don't meet those expectations, irregardless of objective qualities, we still walk away disappointed. And some of those expectations simply come from personal taste. We know what we like. It's comfortable, it's enjoyable, and the cost in money and time required to appreciate something different may ultimately not be worth it. People are having fun with AoS, but it may not be in a manner that you, yourself, can share, for whatever reason. And that's nobody's fault. Sometimes, things just don't align right.
I'm reminded a bit of One Piece, actually. It is constantly at the top of popularity lists and respected world over, but it doesn't really get good until the Arlong arc, which is a good 10 volumes in, or 50ish episodes. How much are you willing to put into it on the chance that it becomes really good later? 50 episodes? $100 worth a books? As it turns out, I did invest that much and yeah, now One Piece is one of my favorite works of all time. But I wouldn't begrudge anyone who didn't want to put in that sort of time, or decided that after 25 episodes they couldn't see the potential. But I can say that it isn't One Piece's fault. Not liking One Piece isn't about the objective quality of the manga, but about what you bring to watching it, and what you expect to get out of it.
And that's how I see Age of Sigmar. For the people it clicks with, it really clicks. We are few, at the moment, but I suspect that as we continue defending the game and learn to articulate our enjoyment better - it is a new kind of game and requires new kinds of persuasive arguments - the audience for AoS will grow. Right now, I think AoS fans are concerned less with promoting the game than simply learning how to best interact with it. Because even though we like it, we still may not have mastered it yet (like the best way to handle summoning).
But if it doesn't click for you, or you don't want it to click for you, or even if you are secretly afraid of it clicking, then there's not much I can say at the moment. I can tell you what I like about the game, but even that would only be half understood appreciations of bits I don't yet completely comprehend. I can't put the game into perspective for the players when I'm not truly sure about perspective for myself. And that's the major reason why I'm here, entering these debates. I am paying attention to what arguments work and don't work, for others and for myself, and getting to the heart of the conflict that is preventing people from seeing AoS clearly. One day, these debates will form the basis of explaining Age of Sigmar to others.
Until then, it's basically just me going, "you say you don't like it for this reason, but maybe it's this other reason instead", and poking and prodding along those lines, trying to understand behaviors that may be inherently subjective and personal.
I will say that I don't think you are the target audience for AoS. I think AoS is meant for people who aren't GW fans, who are a bit more adventurous in their gaming, and who are willing to put up flaws now in the hopes that there's a better future in store. I think AoS, as it stands, is for early adopters. It's for people who realize that there isn't 30 years of models and fluff, and that support systems haven't been built yet, and that the game won't be fully formed for another dozen release windows, at least. If we are still having these discussions two years from now, then I'll admit there is problem. But I think Age of Sigmar is, first and foremost, for the gaming optimists. The ones who see the good in every game and every opponent, and who believe they can help others see that good as well.
Because GW thinks they can copyright it and use said copyright to keep anyone else from making vaguely Aztec-themed Lizardman models that just so happen to be compatible with GW kits.
It's the same reason there are no skeletons, orcs, or dwarfs in Age of Sigmar; instead, we get deathrattlers (urgh), orruks, and duardin.
Spinner wrote: Because GW thinks they can copyright it and use said copyright to keep anyone else from making vaguely Aztec-themed Lizardman models that just so happen to be compatible with GW kits.
It's the same reason there are no skeletons, orcs, or dwarfs in Age of Sigmar; instead, we get deathrattlers (urgh), orruks, and duardin.
Don't forget those oh so copyrightable Aelfs *Rolls eyes*
Spinner wrote: Because GW thinks they can copyright it and use said copyright to keep anyone else from making vaguely Aztec-themed Lizardman models that just so happen to be compatible with GW kits.
It's the same reason there are no skeletons, orcs, or dwarfs in Age of Sigmar; instead, we get deathrattlers (urgh), orruks, and duardin.
GW can copyright the name Seraphon as it relates to specific categories of products, but that does not enable them to prevent other companies from making Lizard Men, or figures or parts that are "compatible with GW's AoS Seraphon(tm)".
Copyright differs in various jurisdictions, but generally you cannot copyright a single word, even if you invented it, so changing the name to seraphon is unlikely to be about the name and copyright.
Talking about IP together with categories of products is usually referring to trademarks.
I find it odd that it seems Lizardmen are the only race with an explanation of how they fit into the mortal realms. I guess that's why several races have gotten the reboxing/basing treatment but no book to go along with it.
Why the races we are all familiar with are populating the mortal realms seemingly unchanged from their Old World incarnations is the oddest facet of the new setting.
Did they survive the apocalypse? Or have they always been here? Why hasn't thousands of years of history here shaped them in any noticeable sense?
I'm actually okay with the name change because wasn't calling them Lizardmen like calling humans hairless monkeys? Why would they care to be associated with men who they consider far beneath them.
Though I suppose they never called themselves that.
@Eldarain, though I expect future fluff and background books to nicely fit the other races into AoS, the main reason they came to be there was due to Sigmar finding their souls surrounding the old world's remains and using his power(and probably the power of the other incarnates)to build a city around the core and to give life to the old races.
He then put them throughout the mortal realms where they could begin building new civilizations. The Aelves were notably few in number which lead Teclis and his brother to search them out and the former elf queen resigned herself to the realm of life, grief stricken with how much life was lost, where she began recreating the Sylvaneths.
I believe the orruks and Ogors were sent to the realm of beasts to cull the dangerous and supernatural creatures there.
There's alot more to the background than that but I'm just summing things up. Hope that helps!
I just look up every site that has anything to do with AoS. Warhammer forums, 1d4chan, tropes wiki, Warseer and this site.
I obsess over the fluff more than most ($600+ worth of rpg books just for information attests to that) and constantly keep my ear to the ramblings around the net.
they probably just read these sites and laugh at you guys. Aelfir and duardin have been around a long time. They are nordic words. Shadowbane an online video had a race of aelfir and guess what: they were elves. These words are nothing new. However when i think of elves and dwarves the goofy ones from dungeons and dragons come to mind. Maybe they wanted the races to sound more distinct and not as kiddy
Dreadnok89 wrote: they probably just read these sites and laugh at you guys. Aelfir and duardin have been around a long time. They are nordic words. Shadowbane an online video had a race of aelfir and guess what: they were elves. These words are nothing new. However when i think of elves and dwarves the goofy ones from dungeons and dragons come to mind. Maybe they wanted the races to sound more distinct and not as kiddy
If you put out a name your customers don't know and think is silly you can feel free to pat yourself on the back about how clever you are but at the end of the day your customers think it is silly.
Dreadnok89 wrote: they probably just read these sites and laugh at you guys. Aelfir and duardin have been around a long time. They are nordic words. Shadowbane an online video had a race of aelfir and guess what: they were elves. These words are nothing new. However when i think of elves and dwarves the goofy ones from dungeons and dragons come to mind. Maybe they wanted the races to sound more distinct and not as kiddy
Dreadnok89 wrote: they probably just read these sites and laugh at you guys. Aelfir and duardin have been around a long time. They are nordic words. Shadowbane an online video had a race of aelfir and guess what: they were elves. These words are nothing new. However when i think of elves and dwarves the goofy ones from dungeons and dragons come to mind. Maybe they wanted the races to sound more distinct and not as kiddy
Shh... It's ok... Soon it will all be explained to you. It's time you understand us "evil haterz" are not mocking the names themselves... Just the stupidity that led them to be adopted - for pure copyright purposes. Kinda like the Spots the Space Marine incident, this is a symptom of the underlying levels of insanity reached by GW on its IP protection campaign.
Also, you should really star worrying about what word you consider childish, as the word dwarf, for example, when searched on wikipedia gives the two following results:
- Dwarf (mythology), a being from Germanic mythology and folklore
- A person or animal with dwarfism
Now... do you really wanna adjectivise a term refering to a rather popular part of Germanic folklore or a person suffering from a medical condition caused by slow growth as childish? Hm...
Good'un
