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I certainly hope it's a misreading! I guess I should just hold on and wait.
I'm still heck of confused about trying to picture where anything is in these realms, though. But that's a different post.
My take on it is that the realm of Azyr is 'space'. Azyrheim is depicted as a dyson-sphere type arrangement around the remaining core of the Old World, so I guess space station/moon arrangement. The other realms are planetoid-ish - no idea if actual planets or discworlds - with the realm of death 'below', and the realm of Chaos 'off to one side'.
So the Seraphon coming from 'High Azyr' meens deep space.
I think you're getting confused with Azyrheim and Sigmaron (it is confusing, I'll admit!). Sigmaron is the space station around the Mallus (the remains of the old world). Azyrheim is a city on land. It is built onto a mountainside.
I don't deny that the highest climbs of Azyr are space, but the heart (Azyrheim) is on land.
With regards to Seraphon being conjuered memories or real creatures existing outside of the battle, in the OP I mentioned how confusing the fluff is so far. This is from the latest White Dwarf however:
White Dwarf 92 p.16 wrote:
"The Seraphon appear as reptilian warriors, creatures summoned from ancient memory - and indeed that is their origin"
"At a thought the Slann bring mighty war beasts forth from the deepest recesses of their slumbering memories."
I think Azyrheim got stuck in my head because of, well, Azyr.
The bit about the first quote though is that you need the sentence that follows;
White Dwarf 92 p.16 wrote:
"The Seraphon appear as reptilian warriors, creatures summoned from ancient memory - and indeed that is their origin. Following the death of the sundered world, they fled to the stars."
It's a bit awkwardly written, but if anything it confirms the Seraphon are Lizardmen as we knew them in WFB - they're an ancient memory because no-one has seen them since they disappeared during the End Times, which has been thousands of years.
Second quote, similar - hacky writing.
There's another couple of quotes, but the main one (It's in "Armies of the Stars", don't have the page number)
"Beyond the gaze of mortal men, the armies of the Seraphon muster for war in vast numbers, creatures of celestial magic who await the summons of their masters.
Beneath icons that bear strange and secret meanings, understood only by the Seraphon and their ineffable masters, they muster for war - serried ranks of Saurus, Skinks and war beasts waiting for the call to arms. [..]
Seraphon appear as though from pillars of light or celestial mists, ..."
So there is frequent mention of them being beasts of magic / bleeding the stuff of magic - nothing particularly clear there - but all the writing indicates that Seraphon do 'exist' somewhere else, and are summoned/teleported to battle by the Slann.
I love their design, concept and units for the most part. However, I think that their infanty don't look all that good. Their weapons don't look as impressive as other factions.
"being religious is like playing only Dark Eldar: there's so many things you can't do" -me, 24/2/'16
''I was chosen by Heaven. Say my name when you pray
To the sky,
See Carolus rise.
With the Lord my protector.
Make them bow to my will.
To the sky,
See Carolus rise.''
toasteroven wrote: That's... good news? Those quotes do sound like they refer to actual living beings.
Only causes for concern for me; they have the keyword DAEMON on their warscrolls, and the references to bleeding the stuff of celestial magic.
Wondering if they are instead a kind of projection rather than direct teleportation, which would explain the fact they definitely exist on a mortal plane but appear intrinsically magical on the battlefield.
Can't think of a decent analogue, except maybe the Star Trek holodeck idea but in reverse - or the Red Dwarf 'Better Than Life' game. Or possibly Avatar?
So the Seraphon exist in 'Deep Space' and whilst Bob the Kroxigor is real enough 'up there', when he's mangling Chaos Warriors in Ghyran he's actually inhabiting a magical facsimile of himself?
It's late, I'm tired, I'm going to bed.
MongooseMatt wrote: I know, I apologise. What am I thinking by bringing facts into a discussion?
Doesn't mean you're not tirelessly white knighting for AoS. End of.
Edit: and that still doesn't stop Sigmarines from having endless resources for warfare purposes, as that is what the AoS fluff is all about anyway.
MongooseMatt wrote: Well, here is the thing, and you can't really get round this: they have already done it. They did it in the Old World, they have done it in 40k.
Now, you might disagree with this but then I have to ask... why are you playing these games if you don't like the background? That would make you very, very unusual...
It really is okay to withhold judgement until you know more - there is no requirement to make any decision and it is probably better if you don't, as it will invariably be wrong.
- Do tell me what you mean by "very unusual" - I do hate euphemistic language; - Do tell me where I've said I play AoS frequently or even like the AoS fluff; - Do tell me where I said I don't like the 40k background; - Do tell me where one is forced to like AoS's silly excuse of a "fleshed out background" just because it's pretty much a pale copy/paste procedure from 40k.
I am making judgements because the three factions fleshed out so far all have endless supplies of warriors - which factions had endless supplies of troops in the Old World?
Four: Chaos, Skaven and the Undead. Who else had - fluffwise - the ability to push forth endless (or nearly so) supplies of resources to dedicate to warfare?
Of course you don't, because you're choosing to ignore the fact that i did a typo there and that Fludd = fluff.
Also, in case you don't know: M.O = Modus Operandi: "a method of procedure; especially : a distinct pattern or method of operation that indicates or suggests the work of a single criminal in more than one crime"
What truly fleshed out faction so far doesn't have endless supplies of resources to throw into battle so far? And I am talking the ruthless calculus of war - able bodies willing (or at least obedient enough) to fight for whatever - I am not talking buddies here.
Sigmarines? Check
Chaos? Check
Seraphon? Check
Hm....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/05 09:53:11
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Doesn't mean you're not tirelessly white knighting for AoS. End of.
Yeah, that is not how discussions work.
I think I have been quite clear that I am a fan of the game. When I come to a forum for it, it is not unlikely I will be talking about the game in a positive manner...
- Do tell me what you mean by "very unusual" - I do hate euphemistic language; .
Well, that is okay, because I was not using any. I actually meant that there would not be many of you, that most people come to these games because they are (initially at least) drawn into the background to one extent or another. To play without paying any attention at all to the background would be, quote, 'very unusual'.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: - Do tell me where I've said I play AoS frequently or even like the AoS fluff; .
I said games, plural - I meant all Warhammer games.
I was using 40k as an example of where the GW writing team had done things you suggested they could not.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: - Do tell me where one is forced to like AoS's silly excuse of a "fleshed out background" just because it's pretty much a pale copy/paste procedure from 40k. .
Is that a serious question? Because this is a game, an option - no one is forced to do anything...
I am making judgements because the three factions fleshed out so far all have endless supplies of warriors - which factions had endless supplies of troops in the Old World?
If we equate large with endless, sure, you could say even the Sylvaneth fit (there are an awful lot of trees, after all). But then I would have to ask, who would that not apply to in the Old World as well? Sure, when a State Trooper dies, his family grieves, but there are way many more to replace him than there are Stormcasts in total.
The setting, by definition, needs armies that can engage in multiple wars against multiple foes.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Four: Chaos, Skaven and the Undead. Who else had - fluffwise - the ability to push forth endless (or nearly so) supplies of resources to dedicate to warfare?
Of course you don't, because you're choosing to ignore the fact that i did a typo there and that Fludd = fluff.
See the thing with typos is that they are not always obvious. I equally had not the foggiest idea what you were on about. For all I knew fludd was just some term that is local to your country, or some 'youthful' term that in my age I haven't heard yet. Trying to somehow shift blame to the reader of your own typo is pretty pathetic.
I noticed that too, but IMO it is a mistake (unless the saurus and skinks truly are materializes dreams and not true lizardmen ) . If you choose the seraphon faction all units are present.
Doesn't mean you're not tirelessly white knighting for AoS. End of.
Yeah, that is not how discussions work.
I think I have been quite clear that I am a fan of the game. When I come to a forum for it, it is not unlikely I will be talking about the game in a positive manner...
- Do tell me what you mean by "very unusual" - I do hate euphemistic language; .
Well, that is okay, because I was not using any. I actually meant that there would not be many of you, that most people come to these games because they are (initially at least) drawn into the background to one extent or another. To play without paying any attention at all to the background would be, quote, 'very unusual'.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: - Do tell me where I've said I play AoS frequently or even like the AoS fluff; .
I said games, plural - I meant all Warhammer games.
I was using 40k as an example of where the GW writing team had done things you suggested they could not.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: - Do tell me where one is forced to like AoS's silly excuse of a "fleshed out background" just because it's pretty much a pale copy/paste procedure from 40k. .
Is that a serious question? Because this is a game, an option - no one is forced to do anything...
I am making judgements because the three factions fleshed out so far all have endless supplies of warriors - which factions had endless supplies of troops in the Old World?
If we equate large with endless, sure, you could say even the Sylvaneth fit (there are an awful lot of trees, after all). But then I would have to ask, who would that not apply to in the Old World as well? Sure, when a State Trooper dies, his family grieves, but there are way many more to replace him than there are Stormcasts in total.
The setting, by definition, needs armies that can engage in multiple wars against multiple foes.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Four: Chaos, Skaven and the Undead. Who else had - fluffwise - the ability to push forth endless (or nearly so) supplies of resources to dedicate to warfare?
Of course you don't, because you're choosing to ignore the fact that i did a typo there and that Fludd = fluff.
I honestly was not making fun of you, I really did not know what you were trying to say, and I do not feel it was obvious.
The 40k setting is spanning an entire galaxy, and it lends some credibility to the whole endless war thing even if not all of the species are able to pump out entire hordes for the ruthless attrition - they are usually the most technologically advanced (Tau/Eldar/Necrons). To me the 9 Magic Realms of AoS don't really equate to 40k's Galaxy when it comes to sheer resource production, which is leading to this whole hordes/undying soldiers on the fleshed out factions. They are a necessity for the obvious copying from 40k's "eternal war" that is taking place.
As for the WHFB setting, I really don't find the "eternal war" thing fits the Old World at all. I mean if you look at the End Times, it becomes increasingly obvious that the hm... "good".... side just can't hold back the sheer numbers set against them, even with Nagash and the Orcs (!) helping them out. In another example, Naggaroth is overwhelmed pretty quickly and without much effort, really, which only further motivates Malekith's invasion gamble. And do notice that this invasion is taking place as Chaos also launches its "test" invasion into the Empire, and has already curbstomped Kislev. And we're not even taking into account the gray areas that are Cathay, Nippon, etc etc...
Of course, quality writers such as Gav Thorpe will always eschew that for the lovely reason of "there will be as many members of X alive as the story demands it"... which kinda counters a lot of the pre-established elf/dwarf/human fluff. (I am unsure about adding Lizardmen to that - I have the distinct memory of reading that the Saurus spawns were becoming lesser and lesser but I am not sure and would actually welcome a refresh on this).
Actually, if you go back to the Golden Age of the Elves the only thing that stopped Chaos from swarming over the Old World all on its own was Caledor's creation of the Vortex. And by this time Aenarion had already taken up the Widowmaker and (arguably) the Elven species was at its military peak.
As I have said before, the WHFB setting is about loss and delaying the inevitable chaos victory for as long as possible, not eternal war. In a way it is the opposite the 40k setting while maintaining the "usual suspects" themes - it's just that in 40k the main "protagonists" are also slowly falling into decay and losing it but that is overshadowed by the eternal war shtick.
On a side note I am note sure if the Greenskins as a whole can pump out as many resources as the Skaven can, even after taking goblins into account.
Out of curiosity, has the AoS fluff covered what happens to a treekin/dryad/treemen when they die? Do they go out like they did in WHFB or do they pull a Groot/Get spirited to a different piece of wood?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/05 14:41:20
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
toasteroven wrote: That's... good news? Those quotes do sound like they refer to actual living beings.
Only causes for concern for me; they have the keyword DAEMON on their warscrolls, and the references to bleeding the stuff of celestial magic.
Wondering if they are instead a kind of projection rather than direct teleportation, which would explain the fact they definitely exist on a mortal plane but appear intrinsically magical on the battlefield.
Can't think of a decent analogue, except maybe the Star Trek holodeck idea but in reverse - or the Red Dwarf 'Better Than Life' game. Or possibly Avatar?
So the Seraphon exist in 'Deep Space' and whilst Bob the Kroxigor is real enough 'up there', when he's mangling Chaos Warriors in Ghyran he's actually inhabiting a magical facsimile of himself?
It's late, I'm tired, I'm going to bed.
Gosh, considering the whole fluff one might almost be led to think it a half-baked load of toss. But no! Who could be so cynical as to not want to wait 30 years for GW to reveal the full genius of their plan?
Lizard Men they are to me, and Lizard Men they will remain. I care not if they shamble out of the jungles of lost Lustria, or teleport down from a magic SF craft world in Spaaace, powered by Slann. I will not field an army either way, as GW prices are too high to encourage new players to start armies.
Out of curiosity, has the AoS fluff covered what happens to a treekin/dryad/treemen when they die? Do they go out like they did in WHFB or do they pull a Groot/Get spirited to a different piece of wood?
Not that I have read. I just presumed they become compost...
Gosh, considering the whole fluff one might almost be led to think it a half-baked load of toss. But no! Who could be so cynical as to not want to wait 30 years for GW to reveal the full genius of their plan?
You, evidently. With a heavy side of flippant.
Especially as most of this is conjecture until the Battletome drops.
In the grim dark of the infinite 9 Realms, there is only war.......
AoS has great potential, but it is being woefully squandered. So many companies out there can release one rulebook with fluff that has at least adequate info introducing several factions at once to give players a good kickstart on the setting I really wanted GW to as well. Each race could easily have had a page or two of basic setting 'primer', with details of their location, motivations, etc.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/11/06 12:05:14
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
These are just the same models with a new name and a new box, right?
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
AegisGrimm wrote: In the grim dark of the infinite 9 Realms, there is only war.......
AoS has great potential, but it is being woefully squandered. So many companies out there can release one rulebook with fluff that has at least adequate info introducing several factions at once to give players a good kickstart on the setting I really wanted GW to as well. Each race could easily have had a page or two of basic setting 'primer', with details of their location, motivations, etc.
That's because GW are making it up as they go along. All the speculation about GW taking over two years carefully planning AoS is bollocks. The game is clearly a rushed out product in a rather panicked response to the collapse of WHFB and 40K.
The fluff background currently described is as wide open, derivative, undetailed and generic as possible, allowing more or less anything to be spooged in as and when GW get around to repackaging the models for each army.
The last thing GW would ever do is to write everything now, and put it in store for release over the next 30 years. That would be completely inefficient.
It's "clearly" a rushed out product despite there being no evidence of that, and in fact the rumors from ostensible insiders say that it has been planned for many years? Forgive me if I don't put much stock in that...
Oh, and 40k is not "collapsing". WHFB collapsed, 40k not so much.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/11/06 14:40:22
- Do tell me what you mean by "very unusual" - I do hate euphemistic language; .
Well, that is okay, because I was not using any. I actually meant that there would not be many of you, that most people come to these games because they are (initially at least) drawn into the background to one extent or another. To play without paying any attention at all to the background would be, quote, 'very unusual'.
It does seem to me that a fairly large part even of those that do play AoS don't care about the AoS fluff; prefering to imagine their battles taking place in the old world. AoS players as a group don't seem to purchase the background books in any large numbers either; presumably because even they don't find it engaging or well written.
- Do tell me what you mean by "very unusual" - I do hate euphemistic language; .
Well, that is okay, because I was not using any. I actually meant that there would not be many of you, that most people come to these games because they are (initially at least) drawn into the background to one extent or another. To play without paying any attention at all to the background would be, quote, 'very unusual'.
It does seem to me that a fairly large part even of those that do play AoS don't care about the AoS fluff; prefering to imagine their battles taking place in the old world. AoS players as a group don't seem to purchase the background books in any large numbers either; presumably because even they don't find it engaging or well written.
Not for me. Finance is the reason I haven't bought all 5 books they've released in 4 months.
Gosh, considering the whole fluff one might almost be led to think it a half-baked load of toss. But no! Who could be so cynical as to not want to wait 30 years for GW to reveal the full genius of their plan?
You, evidently. With a heavy side of flippant.
Especially as most of this is conjecture until the Battletome drops.
The Battletome dropped. They're all memories except for the Slaan, and everything else is kept as vague as possible, apparently.
Gosh, considering the whole fluff one might almost be led to think it a half-baked load of toss. But no! Who could be so cynical as to not want to wait 30 years for GW to reveal the full genius of their plan?
You, evidently. With a heavy side of flippant.
Especially as most of this is conjecture until the Battletome drops.
The Battletome dropped. They're all memories except for the Slaan, and everything else is kept as vague as possible, apparently.
I think the appropriate reaction would be "oopsie"
Mymearan wrote: It's "clearly" a rushed out product despite there being no evidence of that, and in fact the rumors from ostensible insiders say that it has been planned for many years? Forgive me if I don't put much stock in that...
Oh, and 40k is not "collapsing". WHFB collapsed, 40k not so much.
So, how's the Egyptian river this time of year?
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Mymearan wrote: It's "clearly" a rushed out product despite there being no evidence of that, and in fact the rumors from ostensible insiders say that it has been planned for many years? Forgive me if I don't put much stock in that...
Oh, and 40k is not "collapsing". WHFB collapsed, 40k not so much.
So, how's the Egyptian river this time of year?
Shhh... it's all a dream...
All a dream...
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
As is quite clear from GW's financials, their year on year profits are dropping. So, we can come to one of two conclusions here- Either the same amount of people are buying less product or lower amounts of product are being shifted due to there being less people playing GW's games.
Anecdotal evidence would suggest the latter because the rest of the wargaming industry appears to be expanding.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/06 17:52:06
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Mymearan wrote: It's "clearly" a rushed out product despite there being no evidence of that, and in fact the rumors from ostensible insiders say that it has been planned for many years? Forgive me if I don't put much stock in that...
Oh, and 40k is not "collapsing". WHFB collapsed, 40k not so much.
So, how's the Egyptian river this time of year?
Shhh... it's all a dream...
All a dream...
Oh, don't I wish. If it turned out everything from the End Times on was a fever dream brought on by Greasus Goldtooth eating a Plaguebearer...
Well, GW would probably take a massive financial hit and everyone would be furious, but I'd laugh.
As is quite clear from GW's financials, their year on year profits are dropping. So, we can come to one of two conclusions here- Either the same amount of people are buying less product or lower amounts of product are being shifted due to there being less people playing GW's games.
Anecdotal evidence would suggest the latter because the rest of the wargaming industry appears to be expanding.
I never questioned that GWs sales are dropping (although we have no idea which products are selling less). They clearly are. From there to "40k is collapsing" though, it making quite a leap of logic.
