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Yep, it would be terrible, but judging from the compendiums where Seraphon are the only race of Order than can be summoned onto the battlefield, it seems very unlikely any other race will have the same excuse.
...the others are just historical reenactment enthusiasts from Sigmaron who suddenly find themselves thrust into real battle. :p
Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-)
Knowing GW, they will use the "Elves don't like new gak" card and we'll see how Tyrion and Teclis shaped their realm into a perfect copy of how Ulthuan was... and everything is just like it was in the Old World.
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Knowing GW, they will use the "Elves don't like new gak" card and we'll see how Tyrion and Teclis shaped their realm into a perfect copy of how Ulthuan was... and everything is just like it was in the Old World.
It will be interesting to see how the fluff writers explain away the Space Magic Slann creating magical golem warriors that look like Aztec Lizard Men riding dinosaurs.
If you like the Lizard Man visual design, though, I shouldn't worry about the fluff explanation.
After reading the books I really enjoy the setting immensly. The different realms remind me of the craziness and epic scale of Greek mythology. Gigantic serpents in the sky spewing silver rivers that solidify at night, floating sentient island with waterfalls that tumble down hundreds of meters to the surface, deserts of iron oxide... it's gone on from High Fantasy to Mythic Fantasy, and I love it. Reminds me of the Death Gate novels, which I love. The fluff just has so much potential, if they could just move on from the Sigmarines and focus some of the books on the other races.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 12:08:22
You can't do ultra-bombastic stuff like that in a normal setting so one should come up with a totally over epic one so stuff like this doesn't look stupid. How else the writers could reasonably write about a thing like an endless bridge made of birds chained together above witch hangs a gravity distorting moon? Hmm? I'm actually interested what GW has prepared for the other races
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Knowing GW, they will use the "Elves don't like new gak" card and we'll see how Tyrion and Teclis shaped their realm into a perfect copy of how Ulthuan was... and everything is just like it was in the Old World.
Care to make a wager on that?
What for? Internet Creds? :p
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Bottle wrote: White Dwarf seems to suggest both, as they are born on beams of celestial light and are undying, and yet there are "Old Bloods" and mention of cohorts "awaiting" the call of their masters.
Why does everything have to be infinite and/or undying? It kind of takes any risk out of any battle, and means there's essentially no outcome. Just eternal war, with no strategy or tactics. I mean a general really should try and keep his troops alive, but why would he bother doing that in AoS if they are either infinite (Chaos) or immortal (Sigmarines, Lizardmen).
Bottle wrote: White Dwarf seems to suggest both, as they are born on beams of celestial light and are undying, and yet there are "Old Bloods" and mention of cohorts "awaiting" the call of their masters.
Why does everything have to be infinite and/or undying? It kind of takes any risk out of any battle, and means there's essentially no outcome. Just eternal war, with no strategy or tactics. I mean a general really should try and keep his troops alive, but why would he bother doing that in AoS if they are either infinite (Chaos) or immortal (Sigmarines, Lizardmen).
The sense of loss that ruled over FB was kinda thrown away with AoS (deliberately so, I think). Can't have warriors that really die now, can we?
I also think that this is GW adding what they think makes 40k cool - eternal war. The thing is, where the 40k setting has untold trillions of bodies to push to the fore to give the "eternal" feel to it, there is no such thing in the AoS universe with its 9 realms. So they pop up armies of undying warriors.
What GW fails to see, though, is that the eternal war factor is not the main drive behind 40k's popularity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 13:00:23
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Bottle wrote: White Dwarf seems to suggest both, as they are born on beams of celestial light and are undying, and yet there are "Old Bloods" and mention of cohorts "awaiting" the call of their masters.
Why does everything have to be infinite and/or undying? It kind of takes any risk out of any battle, and means there's essentially no outcome. Just eternal war, with no strategy or tactics. I mean a general really should try and keep his troops alive, but why would he bother doing that in AoS if they are either infinite (Chaos) or immortal (Sigmarines, Lizardmen).
It is because AoS seems to be very clearly a wargame setting, not a setting setting. They have not really put any thought into expanding into the day to day life of the average person. It is not a setting you can run an RPG in, or write non war-porn books about. Sadly 40k is going the same way and apparently BL are trying to ignore Abnetts stuff with the Inquisitors that showed off much more of the depth and day to day life of the setting.
It's really sad the way GW's fluff writing and BL books seem to be heading really
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Actually, I was thinking that if the elves show up again and they are not broadly the same as before, you have to make a post on these forums and say that you are a sour puss and grumpy face
If they are the same, I have to post, oh I don't know, that I can't play Warhammer and I know nothing about games
Actually, I was thinking that if the elves show up again and they are not broadly the same as before, you have to make a post on these forums and say that you are a sour puss and grumpy face
If they are the same, I have to post, oh I don't know, that I can't play Warhammer and I know nothing about games
Allow me.
I am a sour puss and a grumpy pants PLUS I can't play Warhammer and I know nothing about games
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Bottle wrote: White Dwarf seems to suggest both, as they are born on beams of celestial light and are undying, and yet there are "Old Bloods" and mention of cohorts "awaiting" the call of their masters.
Why does everything have to be infinite and/or undying? It kind of takes any risk out of any battle, and means there's essentially no outcome. Just eternal war, with no strategy or tactics. I mean a general really should try and keep his troops alive, but why would he bother doing that in AoS if they are either infinite (Chaos) or immortal (Sigmarines, Lizardmen).
It is because AoS seems to be very clearly a wargame setting, not a setting setting. They have not really put any thought into expanding into the day to day life of the average person. It is not a setting you can run an RPG in, or write non war-porn books about. Sadly 40k is going the same way and apparently BL are trying to ignore Abnetts stuff with the Inquisitors that showed off much more of the depth and day to day life of the setting.
It's really sad the way GW's fluff writing and BL books seem to be heading really
But you can write a purely wargaming background whilst still allowing some element of risk. They seem to have deliberately taken all of the excitement out of it to placate the fluff players?
I mean, why couldn't the Seraph remain a dying race that lives on the fringes of a world taken over by chaos, but can summon the powers of their primative gods via sacrifice in order to drive the evil from what remains of their realms? Sure they'll likely fail in the long run, but at least they have a chance of delaying the outcome a bit in the hopes that their gods will come back and save them.
Currently, if they are magic immortals zapped into battle by the power of the Slann to fight an endless foe, why are the Slann even wasting their time on such a futile action instead of creating a new world to live on in peace. What's their motivation?
Hell, at this stage you can just about steal the plot from the Care Bears and change the Bears names to Seraph characters and get a deeper plot.
Ehhh, their fluff is interesting, but a lot of the GW recoloring has left me unimpressed. They just look like Skittles colored Lizardmen, there doesn't seem to be any flourish to match their new "star-worldly" lore. Also, new models or even some star/space decals would have been amazing.
You know I actually always hated the way GW did the whole 'dying race' thing. They overuse it and never actually show their 'dying' races in real danger of going extinct.
Eldar are a dying race, but still seem to be going strong with plenty of craftworlds floating safely in space, a reasonable population that as far as I can tell had no issues reproducing, and the ability to choose most of their battles with their elite soldiers.
Lizardmen were a dying race, who lived alone in a jungle with no one really at war with them, trying to wipe them out, etc. Again, a lack of reproduction problems too as far as I was aware.
High Elves were a dying race too iirc, but again no real explanation why other than they were the dominate power and aren't any more. That seems to be a consistent theme with GW, where a 'dying' just means 'our empire isn't as strong as it was'.
I prefer the way the Iosian elves are done in the Iron Kingdoms when looking at 'dying races'. Their gods entered the mortal realm and for a while everything was great. Then the began losing their powers and dying off around the same time humans developed magic. There are theories that humans (or a human god) stole magic from the elves and that is what is killing them. As well elves have begun being born without souls. This leads to a situation where the elves have a terrorist organization gaining popularity and essentially taking over as the official military after some significant successes. They have groups both trying to study and understand human magic in order to see if they can prove humans stole their magic, and assassins who specialize in killing mages, hoping that will save their gods. Their leaders have looked at the situation and come to the conclusion that the elven race may have as little as two hundred years left, but they are not just waiting for the end to come, they are doing everything they can to stop it, including having one of the more prominent undead bad guys in the setting who used to be an elf plotting to enter their city and slay the god they have comatose in a temple there in the hopes of sending them back to heaven and saving his former people.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Has anyone else noticed that GW appears to really like this 'teleport into battle' theme? It's cool when Space Marines do it, so I guess the Sigmarines should logically be able to do it...Lizardmen too, now...
I'm going to be highly amused if the AoS version of dwarfs have some kind of mechanical portal network. Maybe give them steampunk-style dreadnaughts, too, so they can shrug off people getting killed as well.
Mymearan wrote: After reading the books I really enjoy the setting immensly. The different realms remind me of the craziness and epic scale of Greek mythology. Gigantic serpents in the sky spewing silver rivers that solidify at night, floating sentient island with waterfalls that tumble down hundreds of meters to the surface, deserts of iron oxide... it's gone on from High Fantasy to Mythic Fantasy, and I love it. Reminds me of the Death Gate novels, which I love. The fluff just has so much potential, if they could just move on from the Sigmarines and focus some of the books on the other races.
Why do you think I like the audiobook series so much? They are using the stormcast properly as a way for a new user travelling to a new realm barely understanding how stuff works or wondering why the realm looks as it does. Plus that "vampire" is telling them whats up with the current realm of death and the shenanigans that occur within it that certain "vampire" would make a good story teller or maybe its just his voice actor. Plus we get a small look into the lives of mortals not under chaos in the second audiobook of the series.
The audio series has two main characters in my opinion that "vampire" and the stormcast Tarsus who I feel is actually a good character for a stormcast since in the second audiobook I really like their interactions they have. Still I really do need to get my hands on the seraphon book what you lot are talking about seems really interesting to read in higher detail.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/02 16:12:11
So, I opened up the app today and noticed they've got the new name, and new names for some of the individual guys on there now. "Skink Starseer", "Slann Starmaster", and so on. Are some of these new? There's a "Saurus Astrolith Bearer" and "Saurus Eternity Warden" in there as well. Name changes confuse me so easily.
All the pictures on round bases now, as well.
Temple Guards are now Saurus Guards, which isn't anywhere near as impressive sounding.
jonolikespie wrote: I can't help but wonder how an army with Aztec themed everything is going to go living in space rather than a jungle..
Terra forming space dust into tropical jungle islands.
In this edition, Lizardmen learn that terraforming can be used for transformation of habitats...
Their space ships carry the plans that hold their technological secrets.
Wow I took a 3 year hiatus from GW and came back cause I liked fantasy but there were no players. Hoping AoS breathed some life into the local community. It hasn't, but I found that for my 9 year old boy it has been an awesome introduction into gaming. That story is just garbage. Are they really on space ships? That's the weakest gak I've ever heard, didn't realize I stepped into Warhammer Stargate. So lame. So glad I play for the gameplay and not the story.
Thus, After having thus successively taken each member of the community in its powerful grasp and fashioned him at will, the supreme power then extends its arm over the whole community. It covers the surface of society with a network of small complicated rules, minute and uniform, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate, to rise above the crowd. The will of man is not shattered, but softened, bent, and guided; men are seldom forced by it to act, but they are constantly restrained from acting. Such a power does not destroy, but it prevents existence; it does not tyrannize, but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes, and stupefies a people, till each nation is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd
-Alexis de Tocqueville.
jonolikespie wrote: I can't help but wonder how an army with Aztec themed everything is going to go living in space rather than a jungle..
Terra forming space dust into tropical jungle islands.
In this edition, Lizardmen learn that terraforming can be used for transformation of habitats...
Their space ships carry the plans that hold their technological secrets.
Wow I took a 3 year hiatus from GW and came back cause I liked fantasy but there were no players. Hoping AoS breathed some life into the local community. It hasn't, but I found that for my 9 year old boy it has been an awesome introduction into gaming. That story is just garbage. Are they really on space ships? That's the weakest gak I've ever heard, didn't realize I stepped into Warhammer Stargate. So lame. So glad I play for the gameplay and not the story.
Yea, in the end times Skaven blew up the moon ruining the Lizardmen so they had to flee in their pyramids which happened to be space ships this whole time. They now fight from space as the slann conjure up faceless hordes of ghost demon lizards.
Im sure someone can word it more nicely but that's the gist of it in my eyes.
Do we even know for sure they live on spaceships or are we assuming as much because the last we saw of them their temples where lifting off the ground and leaving the planet?
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
jonolikespie wrote: Do we even know for sure they live on spaceships or are we assuming as much because the last we saw of them their temples where lifting off the ground and leaving the planet?
According to OP they dwell in almost space, plus they fled in their space ships so I assume that yes they fight on in their space ships.
Did anyone else notice that there is now a Skink Starpriest as well as a Skink Priest? These two models were both listed as Skink Priests before.
Despite the name being a little dull, this actually seems like a pretty cool unit! It allows the Seraphon to have a wizard in small skirmishes where a Slann would be overpowered.
gonna just say I dont think the original warhammer story fluff was the problem...for AoS I think it is just pure garbage spewed out. Black Library has some really talented folks...maybe they need to coup the fluff dept and fix this 4th grade crap. and this from a guy who likes and plays AoS
thekingofkings wrote: gonna just say I dont think the original warhammer story fluff was the problem...for AoS I think it is just pure garbage spewed out. Black Library has some really talented folks...maybe they need to coup the fluff dept and fix this 4th grade crap. and this from a guy who likes and plays AoS
But... when the game as a whole is designed to cater to 4th graders... how do you change that?
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
Bottle wrote: White Dwarf seems to suggest both, as they are born on beams of celestial light and are undying, and yet there are "Old Bloods" and mention of cohorts "awaiting" the call of their masters.
Why does everything have to be infinite and/or undying? It kind of takes any risk out of any battle, and means there's essentially no outcome. Just eternal war, with no strategy or tactics. I mean a general really should try and keep his troops alive, but why would he bother doing that in AoS if they are either infinite (Chaos) or immortal (Sigmarines, Lizardmen).
I totally agree. I remember White Dwarf Daily shouting the praise of no longer having to battle on the grassy fields of Averland, and while fighting inside a volcano can be fun, they forget that those battles before really MATTERED because there was an Empire city you were protecting just beyond that grassy field.
Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-)
Bottle wrote: White Dwarf seems to suggest both, as they are born on beams of celestial light and are undying, and yet there are "Old Bloods" and mention of cohorts "awaiting" the call of their masters.
Why does everything have to be infinite and/or undying? It kind of takes any risk out of any battle, and means there's essentially no outcome. Just eternal war, with no strategy or tactics. I mean a general really should try and keep his troops alive, but why would he bother doing that in AoS if they are either infinite (Chaos) or immortal (Sigmarines, Lizardmen).
I totally agree. I remember White Dwarf Daily shouting the praise of no longer having to battle on the grassy fields of Averland, and while fighting inside a volcano can be fun, they forget that those battles before really MATTERED because there was an Empire city you were protecting just beyond that grassy field.
Well, they wanted/needed to create a setting that could support war of any size at any time in any place, much like 40k. And in that, I think, they were successful. That does not mean you cannot have meaningful or well thought out and complex areas of interaction, such as a group of city states. In fact, you can have those pretty much where you like, destroy them all, and the setting will continue. In the Old World, if Middenheim was wiped off the map, it would cause issues later on. So, with this, you can have your cake and eat it.
True, these areas have not really appeared yet (maybe the Brimstone Peninsula, maybe some of the cities described in the fiction), but there is no reason such areas will not grow and become as well known to us as Altdorf or Ulthuan. We are. atfer all, just a few months into this story.
As for generals and tactics... The only infinite troops available to Chaos are the daemons, and the only risk you run in throwing them carelessly into battle is that you might annoy them. That may not be trivial. The mortal Chaos followers are, well, mortal and limited. Though a dedicated Khorne general might be happy throwing his follower's lives away if it meant more blood...
For the Stormcasts, it is not that simple. You have the idea that a great (I won't say ultimate) sacrifice can be made, throwing your 'life' away to create that beach head, slay that greater daemon, etc, that swings the battle. This could very much happen. But throwing lives away?
First, the Stormcasts are good guys, and they have friendships. Once you realise that a dying Stormcast can come back but is going to be 'less' than he was before, it will not be that easy to do to your mates. There is a price to pay for death.
However, we have already seen that, for Stormcasts, there are literally fates worse than death. At the Eternity Fortress, the Chaos Sorcerer was able to trap the souls of the Stormcasts. It did not work out so well for him, but a similar thing happened in the Hammers of Sigmar book - so, we know a Stormcast's soul can be trapped and the reforging stopped. We have also seen that Stormcasts can be corrupted beyond redemption - if a Tzeentch Sorcerer successfully casts a Bolt of Change on a Stormcast, he ain't going to be walking away from that.
As for the Seraphon, well, until we get the book in our hands, we really don't know what is happening there. It may be that we care as little for the individual Seraphon as we do a Bloodletter and instead the focus goes on the leaders and the general ethos of the Seraphon, as you might 'get into' Khorne, for example.
It is not as easy as just pushing the reset button on these guys though. There is a price to pay for death and there are far worse things that can happen to them. That is where the jeopardy lies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/03 12:52:37
Bottle wrote: White Dwarf seems to suggest both, as they are born on beams of celestial light and are undying, and yet there are "Old Bloods" and mention of cohorts "awaiting" the call of their masters.
Why does everything have to be infinite and/or undying? It kind of takes any risk out of any battle, and means there's essentially no outcome. Just eternal war, with no strategy or tactics. I mean a general really should try and keep his troops alive, but why would he bother doing that in AoS if they are either infinite (Chaos) or immortal (Sigmarines, Lizardmen).
I totally agree. I remember White Dwarf Daily shouting the praise of no longer having to battle on the grassy fields of Averland, and while fighting inside a volcano can be fun, they forget that those battles before really MATTERED because there was an Empire city you were protecting just beyond that grassy field.
Well, they wanted/needed to create a setting that could support war of any size at any time in any place, much like 40k. And in that, I think, they were successful. That does not mean you cannot have meaningful or well thought out and complex areas of interaction, such as a group of city states. In fact, you can have those pretty much where you like, destroy them all, and the setting will continue. In the Old World, if Middenheim was wiped off the map, it would cause issues later on. So, with this, you can have your cake and eat it.
True, these areas have not really appeared yet (maybe the Brimstone Peninsula, maybe some of the cities described in the fiction), but there is no reason such areas will not grow and become as well known to us as Altdorf or Ulthuan. We are. atfer all, just a few months into this story.
As for generals and tactics... The only infinite troops available to Chaos are the daemons, and the only risk you run in throwing them carelessly into battle is that you might annoy them. That may not be trivial. The mortal Chaos followers are, well, mortal and limited. Though a dedicated Khorne general might be happy throwing his follower's lives away if it meant more blood...
For the Stormcasts, it is not that simple. You have the idea that a great (I won't say ultimate) sacrifice can be made, throwing your 'life' away to create that beach head, slay that greater daemon, etc, that swings the battle. This could very much happen. But throwing lives away?
First, the Stormcasts are good guys, and they have friendships. Once you realise that a dying Stormcast can come back but is going to be 'less' than he was before, it will not be that easy to do to your mates. There is a price to pay for death.
However, we have already seen that, for Stormcasts, there are literally fates worse than death. At the Eternity Fortress, the Chaos Sorcerer was able to trap the souls of the Stormcasts. It did not work out so well for thing, but a similar thing happened in the Hammers of Sigmar book - so, we know a Stormcast's soul can be trapped and the reforging stopped. We have also seen that Stormcasts can be corrupted beyond redemption - if a Tzeentch Sorcerer successfully casts a Bolt of Change on a Stormcast, he ain't going to be walking away from that.
As for the Seraphon, well, until we get the book in our hands, we really don't know what is happening there. It may be that we care as little for the individual Seraphon as we do a Bloodletter and instead the focus goes on the leaders and the general ethos of the Seraphon, as you might 'get into' Khorne, for example.
It is not as easy as just pushing the reset button on these guys though. There is a price to pay for death and there are far worse things that can happen to them. That is where the jeopardy lies.
You really are tireless in your defense, aren't you? :p
I think you give way, way too much credit to the GW writing team if you think they can actually conjure up more than "X warriors attack and kill Y warriors" - they have set up the 40k eternal war gimmick on a pseudo-fantasy setting and they have so far managed to slap endless resources - because don't kid yourself, that's what soldiers are in this setting (just like in 40k) - for all of the factions that have so far been fleshed out.
And the "we don't know the full picture yet because the game's only a few months old" excuse will be running out really soon, because already the M.O for AoS fludd is coming to the fore.
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
If they start adding cities and towns into the setting I will be thrilled. Did you say there are cities in the novels? That sounds interesting. I can't wait to hear more :-)
Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-)
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