Hi
What do you lot think is the most over-powered unit in non forgeworld, non apocalypse Warhammer_40000?

WraithKnight, if non-gargantuan then toss up between grav cent or scatter bikes.

Wraithknight, there was actually a survey on this somewhere.

I say Kairos Fateweaver when near the Grimoire Of True Names and rolling Iron Arm on Biomancy.

http://ftgtgaming.blogspot.com/2015/11/top-10-strongest-units-in-40k.html here it is.

Why bother with the non-FW/Apocalypse category? The Wraithknight wins regardless.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why bother with the non-FW/Apocalypse category? The Wraithknight wins regardless.

No, because I said Fateweaver near GoTN with Iron Arm.

Fateweaver loses. One 6 on the D or stomp and he is gone.

Just about anything with the word "Wraith" in it in general.

Fateweaver's flying.

Why ask a question if you aren't going to listen to what people say? And does flying help protect Fateweaver from D weapons?

Firstly, sorry I didn't mean that be argumentative I just wanted an explanation. Next, because he's flying you've got to Snap Fire, meaning you need a double six to entirely annihilate him straight off.

All you need is one failed grounding test and he's toast.

Re-rollable grounding test.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why ask a question if you aren't going to listen to what people say? And does flying help protect Fateweaver from D weapons?

Name one non-template D-weapon that's not on a Tiger Shark A-X-10, which is disqualified from this competition by virtue of being Forge World.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why ask a question if you aren't going to listen to what people say? And does flying help protect Fateweaver from D weapons?

Name one non-template D-weapon that's not on a Tiger Shark A-X-10, which is disqualified from this competition by virtue of being Forge World.

Any melee Str. D. For that matter, Wraithguard.

... And melee weapons help against a flier... how exactly?

I had forgotten Wraithcannons though, you're right. So used to only hearing about D-scythes, heh.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why ask a question if you aren't going to listen to what people say? And does flying help protect Fateweaver from D weapons?

Name one non-template D-weapon that's not on a Tiger Shark A-X-10, which is disqualified from this competition by virtue of being Forge World.

I was genuinely asking, I'm not overly familiar with the rules for flyers.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Re-rollable grounding test.

And how you manage to do that, prey tell?

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Re-rollable grounding test.

And how you manage to do that, prey tell?

Fateweavers allowed to re roll one D6 per player turn

Wraithknight.

Your fate weaver scenario requires a second unit to buff him, random psychic powers to go your way, and he can't hold objectives unless he lands. If you allowed a second unit and random powers to count for something, then a council throwing invis and guide on the wraithknight is just as fair.

Take away the assist units and you have may-be-good fatey and WILL-be-good wraithknight.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Re-rollable grounding test.

And how you manage to do that, prey tell?

Fateweavers allowed to re roll one D6 per player turn

There are more important things to re-roll, no? Warp Storm Table, a key psychic power, an enemy's save, a charge...

 Vector Strike wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Re-rollable grounding test.

And how you manage to do that, prey tell?

Fateweavers allowed to re roll one D6 per player turn

There are more important things to re-roll, no? Warp Storm Table, a key psychic power, an enemy's save, a charge...

PER PLAYER TURN! Your enemy will be attempting to kill you on HIS turn. The things you listed happen on YOUR turn. There is nothing more important than ensuring future re-rolls.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why bother with the non-FW/Apocalypse category? The Wraithknight wins regardless.

No, because I said Fateweaver near GoTN with Iron Arm.

The Grimmoire is going to be from another unit, and Iron Arm hardly helps Fateweaver.

For the points spent, Wraithknights are much better.

Plus if he's flying, keeping him in range of the grimoire bearer might not be easy.

The Wraithknight. Nothing should be that fast, that manoeuvrable, that tough to kill and that powerful in both shooting and melee phases and cost as little as it does.

Have the Grimoire bearer flying.
T8 as a pose to T5 does make a huge difference.
Fateweaver can re-roll Warpstorm anyway due to his automatic Warlord Trait, Lord of Unreality.

Okay, so what are you going to do with him?

If he's flying, he's just throwing psychic powers. If he's grounded, he is really not THAT nasty in melee, even with Iron Arm.

He's hard to kill, but so what? What damage is he going to do?

Anyway, it seems we only have 2 units in the running. Just wondering how man points a Wraithknight is, I know that for some incomprehensible reason it's cheaper than Fateweaver.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
What damage!?
Last time I checked 2 S8 AP1/2 beams +some extra was quite a lot per turn


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and that's not to mention the free units he can easily summon!

He can't just "easily" summon them. He requires even more Warp Charges, which adds onto his cost when you need to buy more units to contribute.

Wraithknight wins. The Wraithknight is the most disgusting thing to happen in game balance ever.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He can't just "easily" summon them. He requires even more Warp Charges, which adds onto his cost when you need to buy more units to contribute.

Wraithknight wins. The Wraithknight is the most disgusting thing to happen in game balance ever.

I agree that for points the Wraithknight is better.
But it is Easily.
Fateweaver alone gets 4 Warp Charge base, plus D6. With only 3, he can summon a unit of Horrors. Which add one Warp Charge to make the next unit of Horrors easier. Which do the same...same...same...

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He can't just "easily" summon them. He requires even more Warp Charges, which adds onto his cost when you need to buy more units to contribute.

Wraithknight wins. The Wraithknight is the most disgusting thing to happen in game balance ever.

I agree that for points the Wraithknight is better.
But it is Easily.
Fateweaver alone gets 4 Warp Charge base, plus D6. With only 3, he can summon a unit of Horrors. Which add one Warp Charge to make the next unit of Horrors easier. Which do the same...same...same...

In which case you are no longer dealing with *a* unit. If Fateweaver needs to rely on others then he cannot meet what OP asked for, as he specified *unit*. If Fateweaver gets to have friends to help, so does the Wraithknight, in which case Seer Council led by Eldrad throwing Guide, Fortune, and Invisibility on the Wraithknight and restoring a Wound every turn.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He can't just "easily" summon them. He requires even more Warp Charges, which adds onto his cost when you need to buy more units to contribute.

Wraithknight wins. The Wraithknight is the most disgusting thing to happen in game balance ever.

I agree that for points the Wraithknight is better.
But it is Easily.
Fateweaver alone gets 4 Warp Charge base, plus D6. With only 3, he can summon a unit of Horrors. Which add one Warp Charge to make the next unit of Horrors easier. Which do the same...same...same...

You need 5 psychic dice to have a 50% chance at summoning a new unit. I typically use 7-8.
If the only thing that fateweaver is doing is summoning in more units of horrors, you're losing.

Fateweaver is really good, don't get me wrong. Theres a reason that 90% of competitive daemons lists use Fateweaver. His psychic powers do a lot of work. But he's mainly viable for using his re-roll abilities to overcome negatives in the Daemon codex - if you don't need to worry about re-rolling Warp Storm or Grimoire then a kitted out Lord of Change is 305 points and is better in many situations.
At only T5 and with pitiful combat stats, he always wants to be flying and never wants to see combat. Plus he doesn't really *do* anything on his own: he's good at buffing your other squads, but he needs 2 units of horrors to back him up with extra dice to do that, and he needs targets for his buffs. At 300pts he's pretty appropriately costed.

A wraithknight OTOH is fast enough to engage pretty much anything it wants on its terms. It is ridiculously durable with 3+ FNP and possibly 5++, immunity to 90% of small arms fire and 90% of units in combat, and between stomps and either D-cannons or D-sword can take on any unit in the game. It is completely self sufficient and only gets better once you start adding in other units. Its one real fear is grav centurions.Its probably 100pts undercosted.



I think the premise of the entire question is a bit flawed though. No army consists of single units operating independently. Once you start factoring in allies you get 'units' on the table like superfriends / thunderdome, which stack on so many special rules that their points efficiency goes through the roof. Or you get the entire Tau army which is pretty tame when considering individual units, but when you start factoring in the free +1 or +2 ballistic skill they can get just by firing at the same target, and oodles of markerlights handing out BS and Ignores cover...

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
What damage!?
Last time I checked 2 S8 AP1/2 beams +some extra was quite a lot per turn

Meh. Tyranids can do more of those beams with each squad of Zoanthropes. If Warp Blast shenanigans are as deadly as Fateweaver, he's not very deadly.

Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol common now



Edited by RiTides (language)

Dman137 wrote:
Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol Jesus common now

Um considering almost every single person consider him to be the most undercoated model in all of normal 40k; yup

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol Jesus common now

Um considering almost every single person consider him to be the most undercoated model in all of normal 40k; yup

so your saying because hes cheap in points that makes him OP lol its the biggest waste of 295pts and any good player can kill it no problem. its shocking how much hate eldar stills gets even with the new fun tau that came out. havent you people realized this is what 40k is and will always be, get with the times, by the fun stuff and play games. if anything you all should be talking about all the bad units in the game and why you should never buy them. cough cough terminators

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol Jesus common now

Um considering almost every single person consider him to be the most undercoated model in all of normal 40k; yup

so your saying because hes cheap in points that makes him OP lol its the biggest waste of 295pts and any good player can kill it no problem. its shocking how much hate eldar stills gets even with the new fun tau that came out. havent you people realized this is what 40k is and will always be, get with the times, by the fun stuff and play games. if anything you all should be talking about all the bad units in the game and why you should never buy them. cough cough terminators

Sorry, anyone who says a wraith knight is a waste of points loses all credibility lol

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol Jesus common now

Um considering almost every single person consider him to be the most undercoated model in all of normal 40k; yup

so your saying because hes cheap in points that makes him OP lol

That's usually a pretty stark clue...

its the biggest waste of 295pts and any good player can kill it no problem. its shocking how much hate eldar stills gets even with the new fun tau that came out. havent you people realized this is what 40k is and will always be, get with the times, by the fun stuff and play games. if anything you all should be talking about all the bad units in the game and why you should never buy them. cough cough terminators

You aren't actually making any argument here, you're just saying words. You're not backing up a single statement there.

If you have an argument, make it, but just saying "haters LOL" isn't going to exactly convince anyone of your position.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol Jesus common now

Um considering almost every single person consider him to be the most undercoated model in all of normal 40k; yup

so your saying because hes cheap in points that makes him OP lol

That's usually a pretty stark clue...

its the biggest waste of 295pts and any good player can kill it no problem. its shocking how much hate eldar stills gets even with the new fun tau that came out. havent you people realized this is what 40k is and will always be, get with the times, by the fun stuff and play games. if anything you all should be talking about all the bad units in the game and why you should never buy them. cough cough terminators

You aren't actually making any argument here, you're just saying words. You're not backing up a single statement there.

If you have an argument, make it, but just saying "haters LOL" isn't going to exactly convince anyone of your position.

centurions beat wraithknights into the floor, lychgaurd will tie it up forever, a squad of thunderhammer thunder cav will mess it up. but please tell me how its amazing, and breaks them game. or even better my hemlock will kill it and the wriathknight cant do anything about it lol

Dman137 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol Jesus common now

Um considering almost every single person consider him to be the most undercoated model in all of normal 40k; yup

so your saying because hes cheap in points that makes him OP lol

That's usually a pretty stark clue...

its the biggest waste of 295pts and any good player can kill it no problem. its shocking how much hate eldar stills gets even with the new fun tau that came out. havent you people realized this is what 40k is and will always be, get with the times, by the fun stuff and play games. if anything you all should be talking about all the bad units in the game and why you should never buy them. cough cough terminators

You aren't actually making any argument here, you're just saying words. You're not backing up a single statement there.

If you have an argument, make it, but just saying "haters LOL" isn't going to exactly convince anyone of your position.

centurions beat wraithknights into the floor, lychgaurd will tie it up forever, a squad of thunderhammer thunder cav will mess it up. but please tell me how its amazing, and breaks them game. or even better my hemlock will kill it and the wriathknight cant do anything about it lol

wow... just wow lol..

Wraith knight will stomp the crap out of lychguard/Thunder cav
And just because you give one specific example of how grav cent (lol great example, giving another very OP unit) does nothing.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol Jesus common now

Um considering almost every single person consider him to be the most undercoated model in all of normal 40k; yup

so your saying because hes cheap in points that makes him OP lol

That's usually a pretty stark clue...

its the biggest waste of 295pts and any good player can kill it no problem. its shocking how much hate eldar stills gets even with the new fun tau that came out. havent you people realized this is what 40k is and will always be, get with the times, by the fun stuff and play games. if anything you all should be talking about all the bad units in the game and why you should never buy them. cough cough terminators

You aren't actually making any argument here, you're just saying words. You're not backing up a single statement there.

If you have an argument, make it, but just saying "haters LOL" isn't going to exactly convince anyone of your position.

centurions beat wraithknights into the floor, lychgaurd will tie it up forever, a squad of thunderhammer thunder cav will mess it up. but please tell me how its amazing, and breaks them game. or even better my hemlock will kill it and the wriathknight cant do anything about it lol

wow... just wow lol..

Wraith knight will stomp the crap out of lychguard/Thunder cav
And just because you give one specific example of how grav cent (lol great example, giving another very OP unit) does nothing.

yeah because rooling a 6 on the stomp table is good odds lol

Fateweaver isn't close to a wraithknight, certainly not in a head to head and certainly not vs the average things on the table

In a head to head he'll be wrecked if he's not flying, and if he is flying whats he gonna do... throw a few powers a turn that'll take an eternity to kill him and ONE good shot from the knight will kill him

in a normal game he still doesn't have the same capability either

Dman137 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
Hahaha people still think the WK is OP lol Jesus common now

Um considering almost every single person consider him to be the most undercoated model in all of normal 40k; yup

so your saying because hes cheap in points that makes him OP lol

That's usually a pretty stark clue...

its the biggest waste of 295pts and any good player can kill it no problem. its shocking how much hate eldar stills gets even with the new fun tau that came out. havent you people realized this is what 40k is and will always be, get with the times, by the fun stuff and play games. if anything you all should be talking about all the bad units in the game and why you should never buy them. cough cough terminators

You aren't actually making any argument here, you're just saying words. You're not backing up a single statement there.

If you have an argument, make it, but just saying "haters LOL" isn't going to exactly convince anyone of your position.

centurions beat wraithknights into the floor, lychgaurd will tie it up forever, a squad of thunderhammer thunder cav will mess it up. but please tell me how its amazing, and breaks them game. or even better my hemlock will kill it and the wriathknight cant do anything about it lol

Not every army has these things, and even amongst those that do, not all of them include them. Likewise, such assets may have multiple high priority targets and may have to pick & choose what to fight.

Yeah, a TWC deathstar will mess up a Wraithknight, but they'll usually cost 2x or more what the WK does and have to catch it while taking fire on the way it (and the WK moves just as fast). Lychguard can tie it up...but that's probably it, and they have to catch it. DS-ing *grav* Centurions yeah will probably kill it quite quickly, but most people think those are also pretty broken, though if taken with any other weapons combination will probably not be spectacularly effective.

For less than 300pts, it's very difficult to come up with a better investment that will be as capable against the same wide array of targets, with the same threat radius & ability to inflict great harm in both shooting & assault, with the same mobility, and same resiliency, as the Wraithknight.

Can someone make a list of all the sub-300 pt ways that armies can counter Wraithknights with? Not the "50/50" odds type either but weapons with the "It Will Absolutely Die" special rule.

Nurgle Daemon Prince, Wings, Mastery Level 3, 2x Greater rewards, 3x rolls on biomancy. He clocks in at 315pts. If he gets either either Fleshbane or Iron Arm he'll mince the wraithknight in one turn of combat. Eg in a tournament the other day - I have 9 attacks at initiative 11, hitting on 3's with re-rolls, 2's with re-rolls to wound, AP2 instant death. 15 wounds on average. Fun times. Only problem is making sure you get those abilities in the first place, and getting to combat.

20 Seekers of Slaanesh with Rapturous standard come in at 270pts and do 6 wounds to a D-Cannon wraithknight on average. Bump it up to 360 pts and you can add a Herald with re-roll to hit locus, and they now do 8 wounds on average. They're fast enough to catch the Wraithknight turn 2. The problem is that the army with the Wraithknight is also going to contain scatterbikes which are likely to turn the Seekers into fine pink mist.


He needs to take 18 Melta hits / 36 plasma hits / 72 S5/6 AP2/3 HITS to have an average chance of going down. Firewarrior breacher team spam? lol.
Grav centurions are in the very unique (some would say 'broken') position that their weapons get more effective as their target's toughness increases. Everyone else has to throw a LOT of attacks to get past that toughness 8.

Grav Centurions in a pod do just shy of 6 wounds on a WK out of cover and clock in at 275 points. Grav Devastators in a Skyhammer do just shy of 8 wounds, assuming no Combi-Grav, and clock in at 245 (pod included), but require other units to be taken as part of the formation. Outside those two the only other sub-300 point unit I can think of in Codex: Space Marines that can actually kill a Wraithknight in one round outside of melee is a Librarian throwing Vortex of Doom at it, and good luck with that...

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Why ask a question if you aren't going to listen to what people say? And does flying help protect Fateweaver from D weapons?

Name one non-template D-weapon that's not on a Tiger Shark A-X-10, which is disqualified from this competition by virtue of being Forge World.

I was genuinely asking, I'm not overly familiar with the rules for flyers.

Ah, right. Fliers can only be hit by things that roll a D6 and compare ballistic skill, and unless you have Skyfire, you're always BS1.

1 hemlock can do 6 wounds to a WK in one turn and that's just 185pts lol 5 man wraithgaurd unit with a WWP will kill it in one turn. Lol this game revolves around tactics and building your army list is one of the biggest tactics, if your scared that a WK will beat you then make a list to deal with it or find a way to play around it it's not hard, instead of sitting there and crying wolf every time something comes out. The game has evolved and so should everyone else. Every codex is going to get cranked to 11, and if people can't get used to it the. Either play with your fiends and make up rules (boring) or you test yourself and become a better player

Wraithknight wins, Imperial knight wins. Fateweaver ain't exactly good. Anything with a good rate of fire makes him pop like a balloon. Wraithknight mostly wins most annoying due to it's cost and gargantuan rule and because GW has a thing for the D.

Wraithknight without a doubt.

 Arkaine wrote:
Can someone make a list of all the sub-300 pt ways that armies can counter Wraithknights with? Not the "50/50" odds type either but weapons with the "It Will Absolutely Die" special rule.

No, but I can make a list of all the shooting in my army that can kill it:
- 243 Poison Shots, requiring ~21 Venoms (1365pts)
- 27 Darklight Shots, requiring 9 Ravagers (1125pts)
- 17 Osseffactor Shots, requiring 17 Wrack squads (1105pts)

And, that's assuming that the WK has no cover whatsoever, that you get to shoot first, and that everything is in range. There's also basically no margin for error.

Let's do the maths to see how many CSM with Krak grenades it will take to kill it.

324 CSM should suffice if my maths hold. That's 4212 points. Efficiency!

Point for Point it would have to be the Wraith Knight. For what it cost to field one for what it does, I don't see much that will rival it.

Just so I can join in, what are the defensive parameters on a wraithknight?

Dman137 wrote:
1 hemlock can do 6 wounds to a WK in one turn and that's just 185pts lol 5 man wraithgaurd unit with a WWP will kill it in one turn. Lol this game revolves around tactics and building your army list is one of the biggest tactics, if your scared that a WK will beat you then make a list to deal with it or find a way to play around it it's not hard, instead of sitting there and crying wolf every time something comes out. The game has evolved and so should everyone else. Every codex is going to get cranked to 11, and if people can't get used to it the. Either play with your fiends and make up rules (boring) or you test yourself and become a better player

So again, you are giving examples from what most people consider the most broken codex. Anyone can find a specific unit to kill any other unit. Thats not the point. The point is comparing a unit, the wraith knight, to other units in an army for its points cost.

Wraithknight.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
1 hemlock can do 6 wounds to a WK in one turn and that's just 185pts lol 5 man wraithgaurd unit with a WWP will kill it in one turn. Lol this game revolves around tactics and building your army list is one of the biggest tactics, if your scared that a WK will beat you then make a list to deal with it or find a way to play around it it's not hard, instead of sitting there and crying wolf every time something comes out. The game has evolved and so should everyone else. Every codex is going to get cranked to 11, and if people can't get used to it the. Either play with your fiends and make up rules (boring) or you test yourself and become a better player

So again, you are giving examples from what most people consider the most broken codex. Anyone can find a specific unit to kill any other unit. Thats not the point. The point is comparing a unit, the wraith knight, to other units in an army for its points cost.

you think eldar is more broken then tau... Bahahaha now I know your joking

You need 5 psychic dice to have a 50% chance at summoning a new unit. I typically use 7-8.
If the only thing that fateweaver is doing is summoning in more units of horrors, you're losing.

Fateweaver is really good, don't get me wrong. Theres a reason that 90% of competitive daemons lists use Fateweaver. His psychic powers do a lot of work. But he's mainly viable for using his re-roll abilities to overcome negatives in the Daemon codex - if you don't need to worry about re-rolling Warp Storm or Grimoire then a kitted out Lord of Change is 305 points and is better in many situations.
At only T5 and with pitiful combat stats, he always wants to be flying and never wants to see combat. Plus he doesn't really *do* anything on his own: he's good at buffing your other squads, but he needs 2 units of horrors to back him up with extra dice to do that, and he needs targets for his buffs. At 300pts he's pretty appropriately costed.

A wraithknight OTOH is fast enough to engage pretty much anything it wants on its terms. It is ridiculously durable with 3+ FNP and possibly 5++, immunity to 90% of small arms fire and 90% of units in combat, and between stomps and either D-cannons or D-sword can take on any unit in the game. It is completely self sufficient and only gets better once you start adding in other units. Its one real fear is grav centurions.Its probably 100pts undercosted.



I think the premise of the entire question is a bit flawed though. No army consists of single units operating independently. Once you start factoring in allies you get 'units' on the table like superfriends / thunderdome, which stack on so many special rules that their points efficiency goes through the roof. Or you get the entire Tau army which is pretty tame when considering individual units, but when you start factoring in the free +1 or +2 ballistic skill they can get just by firing at the same target, and oodles of markerlights handing out BS and Ignores cover...

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
1 hemlock can do 6 wounds to a WK in one turn and that's just 185pts lol 5 man wraithgaurd unit with a WWP will kill it in one turn. Lol this game revolves around tactics and building your army list is one of the biggest tactics, if your scared that a WK will beat you then make a list to deal with it or find a way to play around it it's not hard, instead of sitting there and crying wolf every time something comes out. The game has evolved and so should everyone else. Every codex is going to get cranked to 11, and if people can't get used to it the. Either play with your fiends and make up rules (boring) or you test yourself and become a better player

So again, you are giving examples from what most people consider the most broken codex. Anyone can find a specific unit to kill any other unit. Thats not the point. The point is comparing a unit, the wraith knight, to other units in an army for its points cost.

you think eldar is more broken then tau... Bahahaha now I know your joking

It's been more broken than Tau for years. Notice how when Tau dominated the tournament scenes it was by taking Eldar allies. But by all means, continue to give examples from Eldar on how to counter Eldar's best unit.

I asked a simple question above. Tell me what under 300 pt units can kill a Wraithknight, what is point effective next to its cost. We've had less than a handful of those, most of them just over the point cost and many others that triple it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Just so I can join in, what are the defensive parameters on a wraithknight?

T8 W6, 3+ armour, can go for the melee loadout (free) to get a 5++. GMC with all that comes (takes d3 extra wounds instead of being IDed, FNP, poison and sniper wounds on 6+, etc.)

I think it can also put its toe in area terrain to get a cover save, but I am not up to date on the cover rules.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Just so I can join in, what are the defensive parameters on a wraithknight?

I think it can also put its toe in area terrain to get a cover save, but I am not up to date on the cover rules.

Sadly yes, that is the rules

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Just so I can join in, what are the defensive parameters on a wraithknight?

T8 W6, 3+ armour, can go for the melee loadout (free) to get a 5++. GMC with all that comes (takes d3 extra wounds instead of being IDed, FNP, poison and sniper wounds on 6+, etc.)

I think it can also put its toe in area terrain to get a cover save, but I am not up to date on the cover rules.

Though if it goes with melee loadout, charging into difficult terrain would put it at Initiative 1. You get a free shot at it with any weapons before dying. The melee loadout is not much different from an Imperial Knight so the ranged one wins being one of the cheapest sources of D.

Ranged wraithknight on its own has two shots, hitting on 3+, and if those two shots hit, can possibly kill two models. Although giving up an invuln save to kill two models at range seems pretty meh to me.

Wraithknight easy

Trasvi wrote:
Nurgle Daemon Prince, Wings, Mastery Level 3, 2x Greater rewards, 3x rolls on biomancy. He clocks in at 315pts. If he gets either either Fleshbane or Iron Arm he'll mince the wraithknight in one turn of combat. Eg in a tournament the other day - I have 9 attacks at initiative 11, hitting on 3's with re-rolls, 2's with re-rolls to wound, AP2 instant death. 15 wounds on average.

Questions.

How did you attack at Initiative 11?
Where did you get re-roll To Hit?

I'm assuming you had Warp Speed and Iron Arm up (otherwise how did you get 9 attacks and re-roll To Wound) I'm also assuming you got Fleshbane/Armourbane and a Plague weapon (whatever the Nurgle one is for Greater Rewards).

 Happyjew wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
Nurgle Daemon Prince, Wings, Mastery Level 3, 2x Greater rewards, 3x rolls on biomancy. He clocks in at 315pts. If he gets either either Fleshbane or Iron Arm he'll mince the wraithknight in one turn of combat. Eg in a tournament the other day - I have 9 attacks at initiative 11, hitting on 3's with re-rolls, 2's with re-rolls to wound, AP2 instant death. 15 wounds on average.

Questions.

How did you attack at Initiative 11?
Where did you get re-roll To Hit?

I'm assuming you had Warp Speed and Iron Arm up (otherwise how did you get 9 attacks and re-roll To Wound) I'm also assuming you got Fleshbane/Armourbane and a Plague weapon (whatever the Nurgle one is for Greater Rewards).

Yeah, iron arm, warp speed, touch of uncreation, balesword and hatred (warlord trait). Warp speed is +3 I as well so I was I11 (well 10, but hyperbole is fun). The perfect combo, you're unlikely to get everything, but you have a 66% chance of iron arm OR fleshbane which combined with guaranteed balesword means wounding on 2's or 3's with rerolls and instant death.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cytharai wrote:
Ranged wraithknight on its own has two shots, hitting on 3+, and if those two shots hit, can possibly kill two models. Although giving up an invuln save to kill two models at range seems pretty meh to me.

When you say '2 models' it makes it sound like 2 marines: if you're shooting D-cannon at them then it is pretty meh.
When you consider that individual models can cost 300+ points it paints a different picture. A dead AV14 vehicle each turn. A dead daemon prince. A dead Wraithknight or Imperial knight after 2 turns...

Possibly the best part about Eldar's D-weapons is that they make the perfect complement to Eldar's scatterlasers. Scatbikes can shred any infantry or transports, while D-weapons are perfect against AV13/14/SH/MC/GMC's.

 Cytharai wrote:
Ranged wraithknight on its own has two shots, hitting on 3+, and if those two shots hit, can possibly kill two models. Although giving up an invuln save to kill two models at range seems pretty meh to me.

Well, when they can potentially kill anything short of a Reaver titan, they're pretty powerful.

Trasvi wrote:

When you say '2 models' it makes it sound like 2 marines: if you're shooting D-cannon at them then it is pretty meh.
When you consider that individual models can cost 300+ points it paints a different picture. A dead AV14 vehicle each turn. A dead daemon prince. A dead Wraithknight or Imperial knight after 2 turns...

That was exactly my intention though. Two wraithcannons vs a gladius strike force... grats, you might kill two rhinos a turn (and if you use a comped D table, like any sane player does, that's not even a guarantee). So then those two free rhinos spew out their tac marines, of which you can kill two of in the next shooting phase. I get that two d-cannons against high point cost targets do well, but against everything else, well...

A dead AV14 vehicle per turn can be achieved just as easily by a grav squad, or a haywire unit, or really any of the dedicated armor killing units these days.

Just playing devils advocate here, I realize that Wraithknights are a pain, but when I look at the rest of my Eldar, I have nothing else that comes close to being as durable (short of a seer council that rolls the right psychic powers).

 Ashiraya wrote:
Let's do the maths to see how many CSM with Krak grenades it will take to kill it.

324 CSM should suffice if my maths hold. That's 4212 points. Efficiency!

Kriegsmen do it for about half the points, ah!

 Arkaine wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
1 hemlock can do 6 wounds to a WK in one turn and that's just 185pts lol 5 man wraithgaurd unit with a WWP will kill it in one turn. Lol this game revolves around tactics and building your army list is one of the biggest tactics, if your scared that a WK will beat you then make a list to deal with it or find a way to play around it it's not hard, instead of sitting there and crying wolf every time something comes out. The game has evolved and so should everyone else. Every codex is going to get cranked to 11, and if people can't get used to it the. Either play with your fiends and make up rules (boring) or you test yourself and become a better player

So again, you are giving examples from what most people consider the most broken codex. Anyone can find a specific unit to kill any other unit. Thats not the point. The point is comparing a unit, the wraith knight, to other units in an army for its points cost.

you think eldar is more broken then tau... Bahahaha now I know your joking

It's been more broken than Tau for years. Notice how when Tau dominated the tournament scenes it was by taking Eldar allies. But by all means, continue to give examples from Eldar on how to counter Eldar's best unit.

I asked a simple question above. Tell me what under 300 pt units can kill a Wraithknight, what is point effective next to its cost. We've had less than a handful of those, most of them just over the point cost and many others that triple it.

3 centurions in a pod will take care of the Wk.

Already been, anything else than Eldar stuff and Cents can do it?

Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

 Cytharai wrote:
Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

there's no point in telling them man, they just don't understand.

Dman137 wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:
Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

there's no point in telling them man, they just don't understand.

Thats not the point. Every single unit in the game has other units that can beat it. i.e. Rock, Paper, Scissor.

The point is for less than 300 points, there isn't another model/unit out there that will do everything it can do.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:
Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

there's no point in telling them man, they just don't understand.

Thats not the point. Every single unit in the game has other units that can beat it. i.e. Rock, Paper, Scissor.

The point is for less than 300 points, there isn't another model/unit out there that will do everything it can do.

there's just no pleasing you, we can all give you units but you just can't get it threw your head that the WK isent the best unit (most op)

 Bobthehero wrote:
Already been, anything else than Eldar stuff and Cents can do it?

Imperial guard lascannons work fine. Meltaguns too, plasma, anything with rending.

Stick Tigerius in a blob squad, now all your lasguns have rending, ignores cover and reroll hits.

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:
Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

there's no point in telling them man, they just don't understand.

Thats not the point. Every single unit in the game has other units that can beat it. i.e. Rock, Paper, Scissor.

The point is for less than 300 points, there isn't another model/unit out there that will do everything it can do.

there's just no pleasing you, we can all give you units but you just can't get it threw your head that the WK isent the best unit (most op)

Show me another MC/GC that is as survivable for the points: T8, 6W, 3+,(5++), 5+++.
Show me another MC/GC that has 2 Str D shots with decent range each turn for the same points.

You are the ONLY person i know that doesn't think the WK is undercosted... and its kind of funny

The wraithknight is garbage. Its too many points in one place. The D shots aren't blast so its not doing a great deal of damage. And any good player can kill it in 1 turn. Christ my marines can kill 3 or 4 consistently.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:
Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

there's no point in telling them man, they just don't understand.

Thats not the point. Every single unit in the game has other units that can beat it. i.e. Rock, Paper, Scissor.

The point is for less than 300 points, there isn't another model/unit out there that will do everything it can do.

there's just no pleasing you, we can all give you units but you just can't get it threw your head that the WK isent the best unit (most op)

Show me another MC/GC that is as survivable for the points: T8, 6W, 3+,(5++), 5+++.
Show me another MC/GC that has 2 Str D shots with decent range each turn for the same points.

You are the ONLY person i know that doesn't think the WK is undercosted... and its kind of funny

you never asked if I felt it was under costed, you're the one going off on how amazing it is and nothing in this game stands a chance lol like do you even play 40k or just read the fluff.? Sure the WK should be a bit more expensive if say keep it at 295 but you have to pay for the D guns. (40pts each seems fair) but by no means is the WK the most Op hint in the game, if you played competitively you would no that, so pull up your socks and find ways to beat it. Common man it's a pretty easy game to play just have to use your Brain

It gets a 5++ or ranged D. I don't know where these magical Wraithknights are coming from that have both at the same time...

 Cytharai wrote:
It gets a 5++ or ranged D. I don't know where these magical Wraithknights are coming from that have both at the same time...

its all in his head man, it's all in his head lol

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:
Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

there's no point in telling them man, they just don't understand.

Thats not the point. Every single unit in the game has other units that can beat it. i.e. Rock, Paper, Scissor.

The point is for less than 300 points, there isn't another model/unit out there that will do everything it can do.

there's just no pleasing you, we can all give you units but you just can't get it threw your head that the WK isent the best unit (most op)

Show me another MC/GC that is as survivable for the points: T8, 6W, 3+,(5++), 5+++.
Show me another MC/GC that has 2 Str D shots with decent range each turn for the same points.

You are the ONLY person i know that doesn't think the WK is undercosted... and its kind of funny

you never asked if I felt it was under costed, you're the one going off on how amazing it is and nothing in this game stands a chance lol like do you even play 40k or just read the fluff.? Sure the WK should be a bit more expensive if say keep it at 295 but you have to pay for the D guns. (40pts each seems fair) but by no means is the WK the most Op hint in the game, if you played competitively you would no that, so pull up your socks and find ways to beat it. Common man it's a pretty easy game to play just have to use your Brain

Man, i can really see were you get your username from...

If YOU played competitively, you would know that elder lists with wraithknights have been dominating tournaments


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cytharai wrote:
It gets a 5++ or ranged D. I don't know where these magical Wraithknights are coming from that have both at the same time...

Thats why i put the inv. save in parentheses

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:
Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

there's no point in telling them man, they just don't understand.

Thats not the point. Every single unit in the game has other units that can beat it. i.e. Rock, Paper, Scissor.

The point is for less than 300 points, there isn't another model/unit out there that will do everything it can do.

there's just no pleasing you, we can all give you units but you just can't get it threw your head that the WK isent the best unit (most op)

Show me another MC/GC that is as survivable for the points: T8, 6W, 3+,(5++), 5+++.
Show me another MC/GC that has 2 Str D shots with decent range each turn for the same points.

You are the ONLY person i know that doesn't think the WK is undercosted... and its kind of funny

you never asked if I felt it was under costed, you're the one going off on how amazing it is and nothing in this game stands a chance lol like do you even play 40k or just read the fluff.? Sure the WK should be a bit more expensive if say keep it at 295 but you have to pay for the D guns. (40pts each seems fair) but by no means is the WK the most Op hint in the game, if you played competitively you would no that, so pull up your socks and find ways to beat it. Common man it's a pretty easy game to play just have to use your Brain

Man, i can really see were you get your username from...

If YOU played competitively, you would know that elder lists with wraithknights have been dominating tournaments


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cytharai wrote:
It gets a 5++ or ranged D. I don't know where these magical Wraithknights are coming from that have both at the same time...

Thats why i put the inv. save in parentheses

bags that's why eldar hasn't won a major event yet lmao please tell me one event they won.

Seriously, the last time I played a wraithknight I killed it with a hemlock.

Im trying not to be sarcastic but you guys are making it difficult. Imperials have zero excuses. Tau have zero excuses. Really the only one that has difficulty with wraithknights is Nids and Orks, and even then you just have to focus fire. Its not difficult. Big point sink units like the WK are a liability in this game.

What I think is the most OP model? Probably the dark shroud, 2+ rerollable cover standard and buffs your army incredibly. Sure ignores cover is a thing but you'd be surprised at the number of people that still don't take it.

Another OP model? Flyrants, very difficult to deal with and can be spammed like no tomorrow. Mawlocs are up there too with their amazing ability to counter invisibility, and snipe out characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:


If YOU played competitively, you would know that elder lists with wraithknights have been dominating tournaments

What tournaments?

Daemons, Nids, and dark angels are winning. Eldar are doing well because the book is great, but they aren't winning events.

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:
Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

there's no point in telling them man, they just don't understand.

Thats not the point. Every single unit in the game has other units that can beat it. i.e. Rock, Paper, Scissor.

The point is for less than 300 points, there isn't another model/unit out there that will do everything it can do.

there's just no pleasing you, we can all give you units but you just can't get it threw your head that the WK isent the best unit (most op)

Show me another MC/GC that is as survivable for the points: T8, 6W, 3+,(5++), 5+++.
Show me another MC/GC that has 2 Str D shots with decent range each turn for the same points.

You are the ONLY person i know that doesn't think the WK is undercosted... and its kind of funny

you never asked if I felt it was under costed, you're the one going off on how amazing it is and nothing in this game stands a chance lol like do you even play 40k or just read the fluff.? Sure the WK should be a bit more expensive if say keep it at 295 but you have to pay for the D guns. (40pts each seems fair) but by no means is the WK the most Op hint in the game, if you played competitively you would no that, so pull up your socks and find ways to beat it. Common man it's a pretty easy game to play just have to use your Brain

Man, i can really see were you get your username from...

If YOU played competitively, you would know that elder lists with wraithknights have been dominating tournaments


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cytharai wrote:
It gets a 5++ or ranged D. I don't know where these magical Wraithknights are coming from that have both at the same time...

Thats why i put the inv. save in parentheses

bags that's why eldar hasn't won a major event yet lmao please tell me one event they won.

The top 2 overall ranked people are both elder players. As well as rank 5.

Powerfists & Psyckers 2 was won by elder (and 3rd place as well)
West Coast Club Challenge was won by eldar
The Storm Surges was won by elder
Jolt Games ITC was won by elder

That was in the last month alone

Imperial Guard Platoon.

It is so OP, GW isn't buffing it at all for the next IG Codex.

None of those are major GTs lmao sure eldar place well but they don't win big, always the bridesmaid never the bride.
Who won LVO.? Who won BAO.? Adepticon.? DaboyzGT.? I'll give you a clue it ease the eldar lol

Last weekends tourney had Gladius strike force and Superfriends with summoning at the top table. Second table was Eldar scatbikes / seer council / WK vs AdMech with BA allies. Next tables were all tau and war convocation (my Eldar wound up lower-middle of the field). Anecdotal evidence sure, but in our experience Eldar has been about even with other armies shenanigans.

 Cytharai wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

When you say '2 models' it makes it sound like 2 marines: if you're shooting D-cannon at them then it is pretty meh.
When you consider that individual models can cost 300+ points it paints a different picture. A dead AV14 vehicle each turn. A dead daemon prince. A dead Wraithknight or Imperial knight after 2 turns...

That was exactly my intention though. Two wraithcannons vs a gladius strike force... grats, you might kill two rhinos a turn (and if you use a comped D table, like any sane player does, that's not even a guarantee). So then those two free rhinos spew out their tac marines, of which you can kill two of in the next shooting phase. I get that two d-cannons against high point cost targets do well, but against everything else, well...

A dead AV14 vehicle per turn can be achieved just as easily by a grav squad, or a haywire unit, or really any of the dedicated armor killing units these days.

Just playing devils advocate here, I realize that Wraithknights are a pain, but when I look at the rest of my Eldar, I have nothing else that comes close to being as durable (short of a seer council that rolls the right psychic powers).

I'm not sure what you're saying here...

If you kill all the high value targets with your D-cannons and you're left shooting at low value things... you're in a fantastic situation anyway and you've probably already won? You can still go around stomping things. In which case you've also run out of targets that really need to be hit with a D-weapon or targets which have a good chance of hurting you, so your native S10 + T8 + stomp is good enough to kill a unit per turn with impunity for the remainder of the game.
The purpose of single-shot ranged D is to take out those high value targets: but then the Wraithknight ALSO possesses the speed, durability and combat ability to function when its optimal targets are dead.

To me, the tradeoff between 5++ and 2 ranged D is easy. Its still 2 more models you kill at range than otherwise (plus you have scatterlasers as well if you really want some more combat punch). Bear in mind that the Wraithknight still benefits from 'toe-in-cover' so it can have 4+ cover saves a lot of the time.
The times when a Wraithknight is under attack, and its combination of T8, 3+, FNP and possibly 5+/4+ cover are not going to save it, but having a 5+ invulnerable will, seem pretty small to me. On the other hand, the times when 2 D-shots can remove an enemy Imperial Knight / Wraithknight / Stormsurge/ Riptide / landraider / etc / etc seem to be in the 'more often than not' category.



RE: Eldar winning tournaments.
The question was 'what is the most OP unit'. Eg, single unit from a single codex. Not which army is doing the best. Which is why I said its a dodgy question in the first place but...
ARMIES are doing well because they manage to stack a huge number of buffs / free points and roll from there. Eg Superfriends with 10 USRs that were never meant to be seen together. Daemons with 2++++s and a dozen free units. War convocation with 500pts of upgrades. Marines with infinity objective secured units. But these are all armies working together.

Eldar are still a force to be reckoned with on the tabletop and they can obviously compete in the top 3 or 4 spots.

If you don't give your WK an invuln, you're going to be limited to hugging ruins the entire game. If you want to get those S10 attacks and stomps in, you have to leave ruins. When you're exiting and entering terrain you are attacking at I1 and having to roll move distance. Once you're out in the open, you're mulched by... well all the stuff we've already listed in this thread. Last time I played I was taking 5++/5+++ saves the majority of the time with my sword and board Wraithknight.

The point of my previous comment was, what if the enemy has no high value targets? If they just have a bunch of single wound stuff, or properly hide their high value stuff in a unit that can soak wounds, that Str D counts for nothing. Plinking off two wolves from a superfriends star isn't exactly the best use of wraithcannons, and that wolfstar will pulverize you in CC.

As for my vote on best unit in the game right now... I would have to say Stormsurges scare me the most. They're not the most durable, but an anchored Stormsurge has massive kill potential at high range. Unfortunately I haven't gotten to play against any yet :(

 Cytharai wrote:
If you don't give your WK an invuln, you're going to be limited to hugging ruins the entire game. If you want to get those S10 attacks and stomps in, you have to leave ruins. When you're exiting and entering terrain you are attacking at I1 and having to roll move distance. Once you're out in the open, you're mulched by... well all the stuff we've already listed in this thread. Last time I played I was taking 5++/5+++ saves the majority of the time with my sword and board Wraithknight.

The point of my previous comment was, what if the enemy has no high value targets? If they just have a bunch of single wound stuff, or properly hide their high value stuff in a unit that can soak wounds, that Str D counts for nothing. Plinking off two wolves from a superfriends star isn't exactly the best use of wraithcannons, and that wolfstar will pulverize you in CC.

As for my vote on best unit in the game right now... I would have to say Stormsurges scare me the most. They're not the most durable, but an anchored Stormsurge has massive kill potential at high range. Unfortunately I haven't gotten to play against any yet :(

I agree Stormsurge are very good, but you have to remember they are ~435 points when properly kitted out so SHOULD be very good (sidenote: they don't really get any hunter cadre formation benefits.)

I know this thread topic is non Forgeworld, but compare the Taunar to Stormsurge and its laughable how much better Taunar is

Oh yeah, Taunar IMO is the most cost effective unit in the game right now. I had a test game against my buddies TSA + minimum squad of pathfinders, and I took a Barbed Heirodule with two flyrants (about double the points). My nids lasted two rounds :/

 Cytharai wrote:
If you don't give your WK an invuln, you're going to be limited to hugging ruins the entire game. If you want to get those S10 attacks and stomps in, you have to leave ruins. When you're exiting and entering terrain you are attacking at I1 and having to roll move distance. Once you're out in the open, you're mulched by... well all the stuff we've already listed in this thread. Last time I played I was taking 5++/5+++ saves the majority of the time with my sword and board Wraithknight.

As a jump gargantuan monstrous creature the Wraithknight doesn't get slowed by terrain and auto-passes terrain checks. And he only strikes at I1 when assaulting in to terrain, not if he moves out in the movement phase. So you can hide in ruins when you need to in your turn and kill an enemy monstrous creature, then jump out and charge at full initiative. Perhaps if there is something you're assaulting with a WK that the difference between striking at I5 and I1 is going to spell your death, perhaps you're better off shooting it from range and waiting for it to come to you? And again... in my experience, if the reason you're taking 5++ saves out in the open is that you think you'll die if you charge something at I1... in that situation I think its highly likely that you were going to die anyway.

There are a handful of things that can shoot a wraithknight to death with any expediency - Grav Centurions (who are also in the running for 'most OP unit', so that doesn't really say much), various D-weapons (mostly carried by eldar), and a handful of combat units - very few of which are costing 300pts or less.

The point of my previous comment was, what if the enemy has no high value targets? If they just have a bunch of single wound stuff, or properly hide their high value stuff in a unit that can soak wounds, that Str D counts for nothing.

There are very few armies in the game than consist of entirely low value targets. The vast majority of enemies will have some kind of 150+ pt vehicle or monstrous creature that can benefit from a D-shot. There are even fewer armies that can put meaningful wounds on your Wraithknight using low-value stuff.

Plinking off two wolves from a superfriends star isn't exactly the best use of wraithcannons, and that wolfstar will pulverize you in CC.

Yes, a 900pt deathstar is going to mince ANYTHING in the game in combat. Thats why it costs 900pts. If you add the shooting of 600pts of scatterbikes to the Wraithknight he looks a lot better too. Or if you charge 3 wraithknights in to that combat at once, you're going to squish a LOT of wolves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cytharai wrote:
Oh yeah, Taunar IMO is the most cost effective unit in the game right now. I had a test game against my buddies TSA + minimum squad of pathfinders, and I took a Barbed Heirodule with two flyrants (about double the points). My nids lasted two rounds :/

I think Frontline Gaming's assessment of the Taunar was "Only a little more powerful than 2 Wraithknights for the same points".
So yeah...

Just read that article. I don't know how one can come to the conclusion that T9, 2+ armor, 4++ invuln, and that much shooting only makes it slightly tougher than 12 wounds (equivalent points) of T8, 3+ Wraithknight...

As a jump gargantuan monstrous creature the Wraithknight doesn't get slowed by terrain and auto-passes terrain checks.

To my knowledge, gargantuans only have move through cover, and jump doesn't mean you get to bypass having to make your terrain move distance roll. You can jump over terrain, but if you start in it you're still rolling for distance. Our local FAQ rules that GMC roll three dice, double the highest for their move through cover distance.

 Cytharai wrote:
Just read that article. I don't know how one can come to the conclusion that T9, 2+ armor, 4++ invuln, and that much shooting only makes it slightly tougher than 12 wounds (equivalent points) of T8, 3+ Wraithknight...

And don't forget its special shield reduces the wounds from 1 deathblow result from D weapons in half each turn

Dman137 wrote:
None of those are major GTs lmao sure eldar place well but they don't win big, always the bridesmaid never the bride.

Which is irrelevant. Out of ~200 something players at a big GT, the #1 top spot is largely irrelevant, often determined by a single dice roll in one game. The singular data point you're looking at is hugely variable and not terribly representative. You really want to look at the top ~15-25 spots in these cases, and Eldar typically show far more strongly here than almost any other army.

Who won LVO.? Who won BAO.? Adepticon.? DaboyzGT.? I'll give you a clue it ease the eldar lol

Setting aside the fact that the LVO was still using the previous Eldar book, Eldar composed a gigantic proportion of top table players.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Seriously, the last time I played a wraithknight I killed it with a hemlock.

So...you killed it with another Eldar unit sporting D weapons, capable of inflicting multiple wounds without armor saves and able to completely ignore its toughness and potentially killing it in a single round of shooting, in a way that other armies don't have access to. Not sure what you're pointing out here.

Im trying not to be sarcastic but you guys are making it difficult. Imperials have zero excuses

What exactly to Imperial Guard have that's going to match a WK?

Tau have zero excuses. Really the only one that has difficulty with wraithknights is Nids and Orks, and even then you just have to focus fire. Its not difficult. Big point sink units like the WK are a liability in this game.

Except it's not a big points sink. It's considerably more killing power, resiliency, and mobility than any equivalent investment just about anywhere else.

T8 6 wounds 3+ save, and FNP is not immortal, but to make to flat out state that it's "not hard" is to be disingenuously misrepresenting its resiliency, especially with how easy it can get cover and the psychic support the Eldar army can generate for it.

If 50 people show up with eldar at 100 person event does that means eldar are the best.? Nope. All that matters at a event in terms of how powerful your army is is best general, and eldar haven't won jack since they have come out. But hey man if you really think eldar are that super powerful then that's your opinion.

Dman137 wrote:
If 50 people show up with eldar at 100 person event does that means eldar are the best.? Nope. All that matters at a event in terms of how powerful your army is is best general, and eldar haven't won jack since they have come out. But hey man if you really think eldar are that super powerful then that's your opinion.

You can look at the total proportion of Eldar players showing up and their placing, in most cases, they're placing at the top tables out of proportion to their attendance. You certainly aren't seeing most other armies place anything near the top with anything near the same proportionality.

Again, the top place is so variable that using it as your holy grail of a data point is ridiculous. Having attended my share of events, and even won a few, the "top" place is, more often than not, determined more by either raw luck or someone making a brainfart from amongst the top few. You're over-focusing in a single, highly variable data point, and not really looking at big picture with a much larger sample size and consistent result.

It should also be noted that most large events run house rules that somewhat nerf many of the Eldar's greatest strengths (like Invisibility & D weapons), and they still routinely dominate top placings.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Im trying not to be sarcastic but you guys are making it difficult. Imperials have zero excuses

What exactly to Imperial Guard have that's going to match a WK?

IKTs, of course, due to IOM being a mix & match grab bag. With the proper kit, IKTs are a good asymmetrical counter.


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 Vaktathi wrote:
You can look at the total proportion of Eldar players showing up and their placing, in most cases, they're placing at the top tables out of proportion to their attendance.

This is normal, and completely how things should be. Eldars nearly always overperform relative to the field, because they are a spoiler army getting 80% favorable matchups against typical field opponents, simply due to the typical composition of the field.

 Cytharai wrote:

As a jump gargantuan monstrous creature the Wraithknight doesn't get slowed by terrain and auto-passes terrain checks.

To my knowledge, gargantuans only have move through cover, and jump doesn't mean you get to bypass having to make your terrain move distance roll. You can jump over terrain, but if you start in it you're still rolling for distance. Our local FAQ rules that GMC roll three dice, double the highest for their move through cover distance.

Huh. Everyone I've ever played plays that 'move over all terrain freely' means that you're not slowed by terrain at all regardless of if you start or end in it. Though I suppose it doesn't actually say that... which means that jump infantry and MC's of all stripes are slowed to 6" max in difficult terrain. Does your local FAQ apply that for Jump dudes all the time or is it arbitrarily applied to GMCs but not jump infantry?

EDIT: Surely they have to let you ignore terrain completely. Otherwise there would be literally no benefit and guaranteed negativesto using Jump Packs while in/entering terrain. Otherwise you're limited to the same 6" max anyway (regardless of whether your Jet/Jump move is 6" or 12"), and on top of that you're taking difficult terrain checks.

This might just be my experience playing my barbed heirodule, and in general playing many more Nid games than Eldar. When I read the jump infantry rule 'move over all terrain freely' I interpreted it as - you can jump over anything of any height without being slowed, and over models when normally that's not the case. Then pair that with gargantuans following MC movement rules, but getting to move 12'. I could be wrong though, switching between rules systems for the games I play tends to turn my brain to mush.

Re-reading it though, I can see how using your jump pack would let you move full distance, though in many cases I think I would be holding the jump move for re-rolling charge distance (if in range).

 Ravenous D wrote:
The wraithknight is garbage. Its too many points in one place. The D shots aren't blast so its not doing a great deal of damage. And any good player can kill it in 1 turn. Christ my marines can kill 3 or 4 consistently.

I've never killed one. Without grav, which I don't run, it takes a completely ridiculous amount of effort to bring it down, so I found it easier to just let it do what it wants until the game ends while targeting the other stuff. It's functionally immortal any of my tournament armies that I've run.

I've also never lost or tied a game against one, but I guess since I can't kill it turn 1, I must suck due to that sweeping generalization.

OK. If I've done the maths right... assuming a similar offensive profile to an Imperial Knight...

I can kill it in 298 points, in a vacuum, assuming assault range.

On the other hand, it requires mixing and matching units.

Two units of Repentia with an extra Repentia and two priests each. put out 40 S6 AP1 attacks, dealing an average of 6 wounds due to rerolling to hit and to wound on account of the Priests. Sacrificing the Sister Superior and one Priest from each squad to the WK's attacks (Rerollable 6++ and 4++, even if they lose the save rerolls after the priest dies).

 Vaktathi wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
If 50 people show up with eldar at 100 person event does that means eldar are the best.? Nope. All that matters at a event in terms of how powerful your army is is best general, and eldar haven't won jack since they have come out. But hey man if you really think eldar are that super powerful then that's your opinion.

You can look at the total proportion of Eldar players showing up and their placing, in most cases, they're placing at the top tables out of proportion to their attendance. You certainly aren't seeing most other armies place anything near the top with anything near the same proportionality.

Again, the top place is so variable that using it as your holy grail of a data point is ridiculous. Having attended my share of events, and even won a few, the "top" place is, more often than not, determined more by either raw luck or someone making a brainfart from amongst the top few. You're over-focusing in a single, highly variable data point, and not really looking at big picture with a much larger sample size and consistent result.

It should also be noted that most large events run house rules that somewhat nerf many of the Eldar's greatest strengths (like Invisibility & D weapons), and they still routinely dominate top placings.

Oh thank god someone else understands this. Tournaments are fun and all but as far as data goes, the games don't get the frequency needed to tell you anything more than basic army tiers after combining several event results. And those results say that right now, eldar are top tier and, at any sizable event, are gunning for the top spots right alongside the other monsters like war convo, flyrant spam, and gladius.

Once those lists work their way through the field and meet each other at the top, the ball is back in the court of player skill, and the gentle hand of the dice gods. Something as simple as losing the rolloff for picking first turn can mean the end for armies at that level.

Definitely a race between the Wraitknight and Riptide, with the Wraithknight pretty far out front. Riptides being able to be taken in threes does bring them up a ways, but point for point, Wraithknights still edge them out.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Im trying not to be sarcastic but you guys are making it difficult. Imperials have zero excuses

What exactly to Imperial Guard have that's going to match a WK?

IKTs, of course, due to IOM being a mix & match grab bag. With the proper kit, IKTs are a good asymmetrical counter.

That typically cost a good chunk of change more points than a WK does and require another detachment to take however.

This is normal, and completely how things should be. Eldars nearly always overperform relative to the field, because they are a spoiler army getting 80% favorable matchups against typical field opponents, simply due to the typical composition of the field.

I think it has more to do with the fact that they really don't sacrifice anything. They're incredibly mobile, have tons of firepower, and in most cases, aren't any easier to kill or particularly any less numerous than their foes. They do firepower, mobility, and resiliency each in turn as well as anyone else without needing to sacrifice, which, is not really "how things should be"

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
If 50 people show up with eldar at 100 person event does that means eldar are the best.? Nope. All that matters at a event in terms of how powerful your army is is best general, and eldar haven't won jack since they have come out. But hey man if you really think eldar are that super powerful then that's your opinion.

You can look at the total proportion of Eldar players showing up and their placing, in most cases, they're placing at the top tables out of proportion to their attendance. You certainly aren't seeing most other armies place anything near the top with anything near the same proportionality.

Again, the top place is so variable that using it as your holy grail of a data point is ridiculous. Having attended my share of events, and even won a few, the "top" place is, more often than not, determined more by either raw luck or someone making a brainfart from amongst the top few. You're over-focusing in a single, highly variable data point, and not really looking at big picture with a much larger sample size and consistent result.

It should also be noted that most large events run house rules that somewhat nerf many of the Eldar's greatest strengths (like Invisibility & D weapons), and they still routinely dominate top placings.

Oh thank god someone else understands this. Tournaments are fun and all but as far as data goes, the games don't get the frequency needed to tell you anything more than basic army tiers after combining several event results. And those results say that right now, eldar are top tier and, at any sizable event, are gunning for the top spots right alongside the other monsters like war convo, flyrant spam, and gladius.

Once those lists work their way through the field and meet each other at the top, the ball is back in the court of player skill, and the gentle hand of the dice gods. Something as simple as losing the rolloff for picking first turn can mean the end for armies at that level.

Aye, that "top spot" is super variable, I remember getting knocked out of contention in one event because a Daemon Prince couldn't land a single wound out of 6 attacks needing 3's to hit and 2's to wound on a 1 wound warboss.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
OK. If I've done the maths right... assuming a similar offensive profile to an Imperial Knight...

I can kill it in 298 points, in a vacuum, assuming assault range.

On the other hand, it requires mixing and matching units.

Two units of Repentia with an extra Repentia and two priests each. put out 40 S6 AP1 attacks, dealing an average of 6 wounds due to rerolling to hit and to wound on account of the Priests. Sacrificing the Sister Superior and one Priest from each squad to the WK's attacks (Rerollable 6++ and 4++, even if they lose the save rerolls after the priest dies).

The problem with this unit is a wraithknight will take one look at it, go "NOPE" and just run away. It's so much faster than you that you can't really catch it either.
Eldar have a lot of weapons that will remove this type of unit. Avengers do okay, WS, Scat Bikes, Warp Spiders...Spiders and Bikes, and often 2 WS, are seen in most competitive lists, so we can't assume the eldar player won't have them. The WK just has to handle the tough units that the spiders and bikers struggle against, which it does really well.

Good counters are things like Grav cents/grav bikers. They are fast and possess enough weapons to destroy the knight quickly if they roll well. The cents, if taken in a star, can deep strike in and re-roll to hit and wound, easily obliterating the thing. But the centstar is possibly the best...combo?...in the entire game currently, it rarely loses to anything. Even units like orks it does okay against, since it just pumps out so many shots between the bolters and the grav weapons. Marine armies generally have other options for removing hordes anyway.

TWC cav might do it, depends on the loadout and how many SS and high strength weapons they take, because he's IDing them each, and the wraith knights loadout can include an invul save. I believe each wolf causes ~1 wound assuming a 5++ invul and having a power fist equivalent. The wraith knight, however, can kill a few before they swing the good weapons, so it's a toss up over who will win. This is assuming the obligatory 20 scat bikes don't fire into the wolves and ignore the SS.

I did say 'in a vacuum and assuming assault range'.

To make it work in real terms, you'd need to park them in a couple of land raiders, which pushes them back above the 300 point mark, and at that point you make as well max out both squads and guarrantee the kill.

Even the land raiders wouldn't work very well, as the knight can easily remove 2-3 land raiders before turn 3, when you'd be able to assault it. Not to mention Hawks or fire dragons.

Are Repentias considered a competitive choice? I don't think I've ever seen them on the table before, in pretty much any edition, but sisters are not a popular army around here.

Repentia aren't competitive for exactly the reasons you're naming. They have an insane damage output (Hatred, WS4, S6 AP1 Armourbane with 4 attacks each, although at I1) for 17 ppm, but they're nigh impossible to get anywhere - they lose Fleet if you give them a priest, and they're T3 models with nought but a 6++ invulnerable to keep them on the table.

If you get them into combat, there is almost nothing better for making things dead with that profile - two Priests and a Mistress give them one wound of rerollable 3+/6++ and two wounds of rerollable 4++ before they start losing combat effectiveness, even without their 3++ once-per-game Feel no Pain - but getting them there is a nightmare.

text removed.

reds8n

 Vaktathi wrote:
It should also be noted that most large events run house rules that somewhat nerf many of the Eldar's greatest strengths (like Invisibility & D weapons), and they still routinely dominate top placings.

Still, for under 300 points there isn't much that is as points efficient, even with nerfs.

 Cytharai wrote:

As a jump gargantuan monstrous creature the Wraithknight doesn't get slowed by terrain and auto-passes terrain checks.

To my knowledge, gargantuans only have move through cover, and jump doesn't mean you get to bypass having to make your terrain move distance roll. You can jump over terrain, but if you start in it you're still rolling for distance. Our local FAQ rules that GMC roll three dice, double the highest for their move through cover distance.

Jump units have to make dangerous terrain checks if they start/end in terrain. If they still had to make a roll for their move distance, that would be absolutely stupid. I don't have access to my rulebook at the moment, but I am 99% sure jump units aren't slowed by terrain, they just make dangerous checks. It's in that movement table near the index.

MC's and GC's have move through cover. No dangerous terrain check either. A jump mc literally moves at max distance at all times with no downsides except for I1 in assault.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I think it has more to do with the fact that they really don't sacrifice anything. They're incredibly mobile, have tons of firepower, and in most cases, aren't any easier to kill or particularly any less numerous than their foes. They do firepower, mobility, and resiliency each in turn as well as anyone else without needing to sacrifice, which, is not really "how things should be"

Add to that the fact that most of the "counters" suggested use units that ignore Toughness entirely to wound the Wraithknight, attacking either against Initiative, Armor saves, or using D-weapons. Other armies used to have such a method... it was Poisoned, which Gargantuan MCs are almost immune to. Having your GMC murdered by 4+ poison attacks that grant saves was not okay but dying to 3+ AP2 grav attacks is fine. Psychic Shriek is perhaps the most common source of multiple ignores Toughness wounds but a lot of luck is required to pull it off, as well as somehow getting the caster within 18" of it without it running away. Volume of fire is expensive and Powerfist spam blob can be obliterated by one of its Stomps. Heck, even the Thunderwolf Cavalry will be attacking at I1 and must pray that it doesn't get stomped into oblivion. They may take out the Wraithknight with them but at a heavy price and only after it has already done several D-shots worth of harm.

Truly an excellent unit with almost no reason not to take one, leading to 5 Wraithknight lists with Warhost detachment shenanigans.

 Arkaine wrote:


Truly an excellent unit with almost no reason not to take one, leading to 5 Wraithknight lists with Warhost detachment shenanigans.

/barf
I saw a guy trying to play a game with that, no one would really go through with it or try to get him to change his list once he told him what he was going to use.

notredameguy10 wrote:
Show me another MC/GC that is as survivable for the points: T8, 6W, 3+,(5++), 5+++.
Show me another MC/GC that has 2 Str D shots with decent range each turn for the same points.

You are the ONLY person i know that doesn't think the WK is undercosted... and its kind of funny

A tyranid scythed heriodule has the same defensive stats and costs 240 more in points. I don't think its extra attacks or its flamer weapon really justifies that many extra points. Pretty much everyone thinks that the WK need an approx 100 point increase at minimum. If you don't see that then you're just being incredulous to troll people.

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:

As a jump gargantuan monstrous creature the Wraithknight doesn't get slowed by terrain and auto-passes terrain checks.

To my knowledge, gargantuans only have move through cover, and jump doesn't mean you get to bypass having to make your terrain move distance roll. You can jump over terrain, but if you start in it you're still rolling for distance. Our local FAQ rules that GMC roll three dice, double the highest for their move through cover distance.

Jump units have to make dangerous terrain checks if they start/end in terrain. If they still had to make a roll for their move distance, that would be absolutely stupid. I don't have access to my rulebook at the moment, but I am 99% sure jump units aren't slowed by terrain, they just make dangerous checks. It's in that movement table near the index.

Right. Jump units not using their jump packs roll 2d6-2 for their difficult terrain roll. You can use a jump pack to move 12 in the move phase, OR re-roll charge distance in the assault phase, not both. So what I had said before, was that I would be having to make distance rolls coming out of terrain if I wanted to charge something, assuming I wanted to keep the re-roll for charge distance.

A tyranid scythed heriodule has the same defensive stats and costs 240 more in points. I don't think its extra attacks or its flamer weapon really justifies that many extra points. Pretty much everyone thinks that the WK need an approx 100 point increase at minimum. If you don't see that then you're just being incredulous to troll people.

Kinda hilarious right? My bio-titan is sitting over there like "hey guys, my minimal firepower and ability to get mulched by grav is totally worth the 1000 points right?"

 Cytharai wrote:

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:

As a jump gargantuan monstrous creature the Wraithknight doesn't get slowed by terrain and auto-passes terrain checks.

To my knowledge, gargantuans only have move through cover, and jump doesn't mean you get to bypass having to make your terrain move distance roll. You can jump over terrain, but if you start in it you're still rolling for distance. Our local FAQ rules that GMC roll three dice, double the highest for their move through cover distance.

Jump units have to make dangerous terrain checks if they start/end in terrain. If they still had to make a roll for their move distance, that would be absolutely stupid. I don't have access to my rulebook at the moment, but I am 99% sure jump units aren't slowed by terrain, they just make dangerous checks. It's in that movement table near the index.

Right. Jump units not using their jump packs roll 2d6-2 for their difficult terrain roll. You can use a jump pack to move 12 in the move phase, OR re-roll charge distance in the assault phase, not both. So what I had said before, was that I would be having to make distance rolls coming out of terrain if I wanted to charge something, assuming I wanted to keep the re-roll for charge distance.

A tyranid scythed heriodule has the same defensive stats and costs 240 more in points. I don't think its extra attacks or its flamer weapon really justifies that many extra points. Pretty much everyone thinks that the WK need an approx 100 point increase at minimum. If you don't see that then you're just being incredulous to troll people.

Kinda hilarious right? My bio-titan is sitting over there like "hey guys, my minimal firepower and ability to get mulched by grav is totally worth the 1000 points right?"

The problem with your final sentiment is that if you had instead spent 1000 points on gaunts, the grav would be almost entirely wasted. So the Marine players have a dilemma: To grav or not to grav?

Sadly, the way their armies are laid out, they usually pick grav. So punish them for it and take 1000 points of 6+ saves!

The problem with your final sentiment is that if you had instead spent 1000 points on gaunts, the grav would be almost entirely wasted. So the Marine players have a dilemma: To grav or not to grav?

Sadly, the way their armies are laid out, they usually pick grav. So punish them for it and take 1000 points of 6+ saves!

Haha right? I need to figure out a way to move that many gaunts within the time constraints of tournament play

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The problem with your final sentiment is that if you had instead spent 1000 points on gaunts, the grav would be almost entirely wasted. So the Marine players have a dilemma: To grav or not to grav?

Sadly, the way their armies are laid out, they usually pick grav. So punish them for it and take 1000 points of 6+ saves!

And that's the meta in a nutshell, which focuses on heavily armored mega-units that make Grav and WKs efficient.

If the meta were more like the stories with massive hordes of Boyz, Gaunts, Cultists and Guardsmen, then Blast and WKs would kinda suck.

 Cytharai wrote:

The problem with your final sentiment is that if you had instead spent 1000 points on gaunts, the grav would be almost entirely wasted. So the Marine players have a dilemma: To grav or not to grav?

Sadly, the way their armies are laid out, they usually pick grav. So punish them for it and take 1000 points of 6+ saves!

Haha right? I need to figure out a way to move that many gaunts within the time constraints of tournament play

Fantasy's been doing it for ages, use movement trays!

All armies possess enough small arms fire that hordes of T3 5/6+ save models are going to be wiped from the board without doing anything. Those hordes of models lack the firepower or abilities to meaningfully effect the game.

Grab cents not only possess grav weapons (which still kill a lot with rerolls to wound) but also bolters. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 4-model grav star put down 15-20 gaunts per turn. A wraithknight will happily be immune to their damage while stomping 10+ per turn as well.
Things like scatter bikes and broadsides are standard fare which excel at taking down vehicles and hordes alike.
At that rate of casualties, the physical size of the horde becomes a problem: units are getting in each others way so you can't charge in 200 models at once, but every round of shooting you lose 6" of ground.

Unfortunately you can't go counter-meta with a horde of basic infantry because the meta excels at killing hordes as well as taking out high priority targets.


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 Cytharai wrote:

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:

As a jump gargantuan monstrous creature the Wraithknight doesn't get slowed by terrain and auto-passes terrain checks.

To my knowledge, gargantuans only have move through cover, and jump doesn't mean you get to bypass having to make your terrain move distance roll. You can jump over terrain, but if you start in it you're still rolling for distance. Our local FAQ rules that GMC roll three dice, double the highest for their move through cover distance.

Jump units have to make dangerous terrain checks if they start/end in terrain. If they still had to make a roll for their move distance, that would be absolutely stupid. I don't have access to my rulebook at the moment, but I am 99% sure jump units aren't slowed by terrain, they just make dangerous checks. It's in that movement table near the index.

Right. Jump units not using their jump packs roll 2d6-2 for their difficult terrain roll. You can use a jump pack to move 12 in the move phase, OR re-roll charge distance in the assault phase, not both. So what I had said before, was that I would be having to make distance rolls coming out of terrain if I wanted to charge something, assuming I wanted to keep the re-roll for charge distance.

Yes, but as Monstrous Creatures with Move Through Cover, Wraithknights aren't slowed by charging through terrain. Plus the MAXIMUM charge range of 6" +2D6 re-rolled is less than the average charge range of 12"+2D6 normal, and the AVERAGE charge range of 6"+2D6rr is less than the minimum charge range of 12"+2D6, so you're always better off using your jump packs in movement for the Wraithknight.
Ie, The wraithknight can safely hug ruins/craters all game and get a 4+/5+ cover save, meaning that the dual D weapons are nearly always the superior option.

Trasvi wrote:
Yes, but as Monstrous Creatures with Move Through Cover, Wraithknights aren't slowed by charging through terrain. Plus the MAXIMUM charge range of 6" +2D6 re-rolled is less than the average charge range of 12"+2D6 normal, and the AVERAGE charge range of 6"+2D6rr is less than the minimum charge range of 12"+2D6, so you're always better off using your jump packs in movement for the Wraithknight.
Ie, The wraithknight can safely hug ruins/craters all game and get a 4+/5+ cover save, meaning that the dual D weapons are nearly always the superior option.

Maximum charge distance of 6" + 2D6... where is that coming from? Gargantuans charge just like MCs, 2D6. Since there is no book rule for Gargantuans moving through cover, we use 3D6, double the highest roll, so you will reliably be moving 8-12" even with the roll. There's nothing the WK has as a Gargantuan or Jump unit that lets it get longer charge distance, or re-roll charges besides using the jump pack. I would rather save the jump pack for that, so snake eyes don't ruin a 3" charge for me, but I guess YMMV.

And yeah, playing gaunts was a joke. Obviously horde armies don't work in the current meta. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Gladius Strike Force, and that works because you get a bunch of free transports to ride in. Movement trays for about 4 square feet of gaunts just doesn't work.

Double the highest? No, you just discard the lowest and add the other two together.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Double the highest? No, you just discard the lowest and add the other two together.

Doubling the highest result is GW's errata for Super Heavy Walkers, but for whatever reason they did not also clarify Gargantuan MC's to work this way.

Pan Fo Desolators

Centurions in a drop pod....that's two units. The drop pod removes one of the major disadvantages of the centurions.

Median Trace wrote:
Centurions in a drop pod....that's two units. The drop pod removes one of the major disadvantages of the centurions.

Whats the points cost on the optimal load out for that?

Wraithknight is rubbish because each shot is only aloud to target one model. I could hide Chaos Lord with Murder Sword amongst 35 cultists and you couldn't do anything.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Wraithknight is rubbish because each shot is only aloud to target one model. I could hide Chaos Lord with Murder Sword amongst 35 cultists and you couldn't do anything.

You could charge them...

 vipoid wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Wraithknight is rubbish because each shot is only aloud to target one model. I could hide Chaos Lord with Murder Sword amongst 35 cultists and you couldn't do anything.

You could charge them...

Oh yeah, the Wraithknight will be SO afraid of Instant Death...oh wait.
BUT the Lord will strike at I5...oh wait.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Wraithknight is rubbish because each shot is only aloud to target one model. I could hide Chaos Lord with Murder Sword amongst 35 cultists and you couldn't do anything.

Sorry buddy. you just lost all credibility.

Wraithknight... rubbish... lol

scatter bikes will slaughter that unit of cultists. Stomp attacks will whip out hordes of things and one attacking getting through will kill lord.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Wraithknight is rubbish because each shot is only aloud to target one model. I could hide Chaos Lord with Murder Sword amongst 35 cultists and you couldn't do anything.

You're right, I can only kill 2 models, which can total up to 2000 points, that really sucks, there is no way anyone would ever bring something with the *potential* to kill 6x it's cost in one round of shooting.

Granted killing 2k worth of models requires an insane ammount of luck, but when your argument is that killing 2 models is useless then I'd gladly play a game where you start with 2k less, because it's not important.

WK threat range from 6 - 2000 points killed per turn, assuming it kills 2 models.

Breaking this down further, list of 2 models likely to be killed.

2 cultists, for some reason you shot at cultists, <20 points killed.
2 marines again, for some reason <40 points
2 scatter bikes <50
2 grav cents <100 Now we're getting into value territory, you make your points back in 3 turns.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Below this line is where the wraithknight is profitable, (assuming it couldn't move or charge, and was just a stationary gun platform)

2 razorbacks (assuming they survive any nearby scatterbikes) <110
2 ghost arks <210 , you make back your points in 2 turns, and kill the only thing scatter bikes cant hurt on the field
2 monoliths <400 points. 1 turn
2 land raiders <470
2 Imperial knights <800 , Yes you are right , there is absolutely no reason ever to kill 2 models, ever.
2 Tesseract vaults <1100
2 heirophants <2000 points, technically possible.

Saying "you can only kill 2 models" is absurd (it also has scatter lasers) , there are very few armies that don't have 2 models worth D-ing off the table.
Gladius? see razorbacks, assuming your bikes cant remove the AV11, you can write 1-2 off each turn.
Decurion? crack open the AV 13 ghost arks.
Eldar? kill the other WK
Imperial knights? obvious

Hordes? stomp everything

Realistically people have to commit more than 300 points to killing a wraithknight, unless they are running specific counters (grav usually)
Take necrons, there are 2 things to kill a wraithknight, Destroyer cult / deathmarks, If they are not in your list, you will have to spend well above 300 points of firepower to kill it.

In a vacuum the WK is very powerful, and cheap for it's power.
In an army, it fixes the shortcomings of units like scatter bikes, solving AV 13 spam.

Fortunately other armies can also combo things , like deathstars, and formation combos to perform on equal footing, that still doesnt make the wraithknight bad.

harkequin wrote:

Fortunately other armies can also combo things , like deathstars, and formation combos to perform on equal footing

I'd argue that a lot of armies can't do this.

 vipoid wrote:

harkequin wrote:

Fortunately other armies can also combo things , like deathstars, and formation combos to perform on equal footing

I'd argue that a lot of armies can't do this.

Absolutely right, but those armies aren't usually the ones we see at the top of the scoreboards.

I was just handwaving the "other armies win tournaments therefore eldar aren't strong" argument.

I play necrons,I lose to draigo stars, Adamantium lances , deamons etc.
If we both build competitive lists it's pretty even because these armies have lists that circumvent their weaknesses, and use specific tactics to win.
If we play fluffy, necrns tend to destroy due to their innate power, and the fact that otherwise competitive armies, require specific thought out tactical builds to win.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He can't just "easily" summon them. He requires even more Warp Charges, which adds onto his cost when you need to buy more units to contribute.

Wraithknight wins. The Wraithknight is the most disgusting thing to happen in game balance ever.

Nope....

2++ grot banner waver, most op thing ever!!!!!'''''