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 Cytharai wrote:
If you don't give your WK an invuln, you're going to be limited to hugging ruins the entire game. If you want to get those S10 attacks and stomps in, you have to leave ruins. When you're exiting and entering terrain you are attacking at I1 and having to roll move distance. Once you're out in the open, you're mulched by... well all the stuff we've already listed in this thread. Last time I played I was taking 5++/5+++ saves the majority of the time with my sword and board Wraithknight.

The point of my previous comment was, what if the enemy has no high value targets? If they just have a bunch of single wound stuff, or properly hide their high value stuff in a unit that can soak wounds, that Str D counts for nothing. Plinking off two wolves from a superfriends star isn't exactly the best use of wraithcannons, and that wolfstar will pulverize you in CC.

As for my vote on best unit in the game right now... I would have to say Stormsurges scare me the most. They're not the most durable, but an anchored Stormsurge has massive kill potential at high range. Unfortunately I haven't gotten to play against any yet :(

I agree Stormsurge are very good, but you have to remember they are ~435 points when properly kitted out so SHOULD be very good (sidenote: they don't really get any hunter cadre formation benefits.)

I know this thread topic is non Forgeworld, but compare the Taunar to Stormsurge and its laughable how much better Taunar is

Oh yeah, Taunar IMO is the most cost effective unit in the game right now. I had a test game against my buddies TSA + minimum squad of pathfinders, and I took a Barbed Heirodule with two flyrants (about double the points). My nids lasted two rounds :/

 Cytharai wrote:
If you don't give your WK an invuln, you're going to be limited to hugging ruins the entire game. If you want to get those S10 attacks and stomps in, you have to leave ruins. When you're exiting and entering terrain you are attacking at I1 and having to roll move distance. Once you're out in the open, you're mulched by... well all the stuff we've already listed in this thread. Last time I played I was taking 5++/5+++ saves the majority of the time with my sword and board Wraithknight.

As a jump gargantuan monstrous creature the Wraithknight doesn't get slowed by terrain and auto-passes terrain checks. And he only strikes at I1 when assaulting in to terrain, not if he moves out in the movement phase. So you can hide in ruins when you need to in your turn and kill an enemy monstrous creature, then jump out and charge at full initiative. Perhaps if there is something you're assaulting with a WK that the difference between striking at I5 and I1 is going to spell your death, perhaps you're better off shooting it from range and waiting for it to come to you? And again... in my experience, if the reason you're taking 5++ saves out in the open is that you think you'll die if you charge something at I1... in that situation I think its highly likely that you were going to die anyway.

There are a handful of things that can shoot a wraithknight to death with any expediency - Grav Centurions (who are also in the running for 'most OP unit', so that doesn't really say much), various D-weapons (mostly carried by eldar), and a handful of combat units - very few of which are costing 300pts or less.

The point of my previous comment was, what if the enemy has no high value targets? If they just have a bunch of single wound stuff, or properly hide their high value stuff in a unit that can soak wounds, that Str D counts for nothing.

There are very few armies in the game than consist of entirely low value targets. The vast majority of enemies will have some kind of 150+ pt vehicle or monstrous creature that can benefit from a D-shot. There are even fewer armies that can put meaningful wounds on your Wraithknight using low-value stuff.

Plinking off two wolves from a superfriends star isn't exactly the best use of wraithcannons, and that wolfstar will pulverize you in CC.

Yes, a 900pt deathstar is going to mince ANYTHING in the game in combat. Thats why it costs 900pts. If you add the shooting of 600pts of scatterbikes to the Wraithknight he looks a lot better too. Or if you charge 3 wraithknights in to that combat at once, you're going to squish a LOT of wolves.


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 Cytharai wrote:
Oh yeah, Taunar IMO is the most cost effective unit in the game right now. I had a test game against my buddies TSA + minimum squad of pathfinders, and I took a Barbed Heirodule with two flyrants (about double the points). My nids lasted two rounds :/

I think Frontline Gaming's assessment of the Taunar was "Only a little more powerful than 2 Wraithknights for the same points".
So yeah...

Just read that article. I don't know how one can come to the conclusion that T9, 2+ armor, 4++ invuln, and that much shooting only makes it slightly tougher than 12 wounds (equivalent points) of T8, 3+ Wraithknight...

As a jump gargantuan monstrous creature the Wraithknight doesn't get slowed by terrain and auto-passes terrain checks.

To my knowledge, gargantuans only have move through cover, and jump doesn't mean you get to bypass having to make your terrain move distance roll. You can jump over terrain, but if you start in it you're still rolling for distance. Our local FAQ rules that GMC roll three dice, double the highest for their move through cover distance.

 Cytharai wrote:
Just read that article. I don't know how one can come to the conclusion that T9, 2+ armor, 4++ invuln, and that much shooting only makes it slightly tougher than 12 wounds (equivalent points) of T8, 3+ Wraithknight...

And don't forget its special shield reduces the wounds from 1 deathblow result from D weapons in half each turn

Dman137 wrote:
None of those are major GTs lmao sure eldar place well but they don't win big, always the bridesmaid never the bride.

Which is irrelevant. Out of ~200 something players at a big GT, the #1 top spot is largely irrelevant, often determined by a single dice roll in one game. The singular data point you're looking at is hugely variable and not terribly representative. You really want to look at the top ~15-25 spots in these cases, and Eldar typically show far more strongly here than almost any other army.

Who won LVO.? Who won BAO.? Adepticon.? DaboyzGT.? I'll give you a clue it ease the eldar lol

Setting aside the fact that the LVO was still using the previous Eldar book, Eldar composed a gigantic proportion of top table players.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Seriously, the last time I played a wraithknight I killed it with a hemlock.

So...you killed it with another Eldar unit sporting D weapons, capable of inflicting multiple wounds without armor saves and able to completely ignore its toughness and potentially killing it in a single round of shooting, in a way that other armies don't have access to. Not sure what you're pointing out here.

Im trying not to be sarcastic but you guys are making it difficult. Imperials have zero excuses

What exactly to Imperial Guard have that's going to match a WK?

Tau have zero excuses. Really the only one that has difficulty with wraithknights is Nids and Orks, and even then you just have to focus fire. Its not difficult. Big point sink units like the WK are a liability in this game.

Except it's not a big points sink. It's considerably more killing power, resiliency, and mobility than any equivalent investment just about anywhere else.

T8 6 wounds 3+ save, and FNP is not immortal, but to make to flat out state that it's "not hard" is to be disingenuously misrepresenting its resiliency, especially with how easy it can get cover and the psychic support the Eldar army can generate for it.

If 50 people show up with eldar at 100 person event does that means eldar are the best.? Nope. All that matters at a event in terms of how powerful your army is is best general, and eldar haven't won jack since they have come out. But hey man if you really think eldar are that super powerful then that's your opinion.

Dman137 wrote:
If 50 people show up with eldar at 100 person event does that means eldar are the best.? Nope. All that matters at a event in terms of how powerful your army is is best general, and eldar haven't won jack since they have come out. But hey man if you really think eldar are that super powerful then that's your opinion.

You can look at the total proportion of Eldar players showing up and their placing, in most cases, they're placing at the top tables out of proportion to their attendance. You certainly aren't seeing most other armies place anything near the top with anything near the same proportionality.

Again, the top place is so variable that using it as your holy grail of a data point is ridiculous. Having attended my share of events, and even won a few, the "top" place is, more often than not, determined more by either raw luck or someone making a brainfart from amongst the top few. You're over-focusing in a single, highly variable data point, and not really looking at big picture with a much larger sample size and consistent result.

It should also be noted that most large events run house rules that somewhat nerf many of the Eldar's greatest strengths (like Invisibility & D weapons), and they still routinely dominate top placings.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Im trying not to be sarcastic but you guys are making it difficult. Imperials have zero excuses

What exactly to Imperial Guard have that's going to match a WK?

IKTs, of course, due to IOM being a mix & match grab bag. With the proper kit, IKTs are a good asymmetrical counter.


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 Vaktathi wrote:
You can look at the total proportion of Eldar players showing up and their placing, in most cases, they're placing at the top tables out of proportion to their attendance.

This is normal, and completely how things should be. Eldars nearly always overperform relative to the field, because they are a spoiler army getting 80% favorable matchups against typical field opponents, simply due to the typical composition of the field.

 Cytharai wrote:

As a jump gargantuan monstrous creature the Wraithknight doesn't get slowed by terrain and auto-passes terrain checks.

To my knowledge, gargantuans only have move through cover, and jump doesn't mean you get to bypass having to make your terrain move distance roll. You can jump over terrain, but if you start in it you're still rolling for distance. Our local FAQ rules that GMC roll three dice, double the highest for their move through cover distance.

Huh. Everyone I've ever played plays that 'move over all terrain freely' means that you're not slowed by terrain at all regardless of if you start or end in it. Though I suppose it doesn't actually say that... which means that jump infantry and MC's of all stripes are slowed to 6" max in difficult terrain. Does your local FAQ apply that for Jump dudes all the time or is it arbitrarily applied to GMCs but not jump infantry?

EDIT: Surely they have to let you ignore terrain completely. Otherwise there would be literally no benefit and guaranteed negativesto using Jump Packs while in/entering terrain. Otherwise you're limited to the same 6" max anyway (regardless of whether your Jet/Jump move is 6" or 12"), and on top of that you're taking difficult terrain checks.

This might just be my experience playing my barbed heirodule, and in general playing many more Nid games than Eldar. When I read the jump infantry rule 'move over all terrain freely' I interpreted it as - you can jump over anything of any height without being slowed, and over models when normally that's not the case. Then pair that with gargantuans following MC movement rules, but getting to move 12'. I could be wrong though, switching between rules systems for the games I play tends to turn my brain to mush.

Re-reading it though, I can see how using your jump pack would let you move full distance, though in many cases I think I would be holding the jump move for re-rolling charge distance (if in range).

 Ravenous D wrote:
The wraithknight is garbage. Its too many points in one place. The D shots aren't blast so its not doing a great deal of damage. And any good player can kill it in 1 turn. Christ my marines can kill 3 or 4 consistently.

I've never killed one. Without grav, which I don't run, it takes a completely ridiculous amount of effort to bring it down, so I found it easier to just let it do what it wants until the game ends while targeting the other stuff. It's functionally immortal any of my tournament armies that I've run.

I've also never lost or tied a game against one, but I guess since I can't kill it turn 1, I must suck due to that sweeping generalization.

OK. If I've done the maths right... assuming a similar offensive profile to an Imperial Knight...

I can kill it in 298 points, in a vacuum, assuming assault range.

On the other hand, it requires mixing and matching units.

Two units of Repentia with an extra Repentia and two priests each. put out 40 S6 AP1 attacks, dealing an average of 6 wounds due to rerolling to hit and to wound on account of the Priests. Sacrificing the Sister Superior and one Priest from each squad to the WK's attacks (Rerollable 6++ and 4++, even if they lose the save rerolls after the priest dies).

 Vaktathi wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
If 50 people show up with eldar at 100 person event does that means eldar are the best.? Nope. All that matters at a event in terms of how powerful your army is is best general, and eldar haven't won jack since they have come out. But hey man if you really think eldar are that super powerful then that's your opinion.

You can look at the total proportion of Eldar players showing up and their placing, in most cases, they're placing at the top tables out of proportion to their attendance. You certainly aren't seeing most other armies place anything near the top with anything near the same proportionality.

Again, the top place is so variable that using it as your holy grail of a data point is ridiculous. Having attended my share of events, and even won a few, the "top" place is, more often than not, determined more by either raw luck or someone making a brainfart from amongst the top few. You're over-focusing in a single, highly variable data point, and not really looking at big picture with a much larger sample size and consistent result.

It should also be noted that most large events run house rules that somewhat nerf many of the Eldar's greatest strengths (like Invisibility & D weapons), and they still routinely dominate top placings.

Oh thank god someone else understands this. Tournaments are fun and all but as far as data goes, the games don't get the frequency needed to tell you anything more than basic army tiers after combining several event results. And those results say that right now, eldar are top tier and, at any sizable event, are gunning for the top spots right alongside the other monsters like war convo, flyrant spam, and gladius.

Once those lists work their way through the field and meet each other at the top, the ball is back in the court of player skill, and the gentle hand of the dice gods. Something as simple as losing the rolloff for picking first turn can mean the end for armies at that level.

Definitely a race between the Wraitknight and Riptide, with the Wraithknight pretty far out front. Riptides being able to be taken in threes does bring them up a ways, but point for point, Wraithknights still edge them out.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Im trying not to be sarcastic but you guys are making it difficult. Imperials have zero excuses

What exactly to Imperial Guard have that's going to match a WK?

IKTs, of course, due to IOM being a mix & match grab bag. With the proper kit, IKTs are a good asymmetrical counter.

That typically cost a good chunk of change more points than a WK does and require another detachment to take however.

This is normal, and completely how things should be. Eldars nearly always overperform relative to the field, because they are a spoiler army getting 80% favorable matchups against typical field opponents, simply due to the typical composition of the field.

I think it has more to do with the fact that they really don't sacrifice anything. They're incredibly mobile, have tons of firepower, and in most cases, aren't any easier to kill or particularly any less numerous than their foes. They do firepower, mobility, and resiliency each in turn as well as anyone else without needing to sacrifice, which, is not really "how things should be"

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
If 50 people show up with eldar at 100 person event does that means eldar are the best.? Nope. All that matters at a event in terms of how powerful your army is is best general, and eldar haven't won jack since they have come out. But hey man if you really think eldar are that super powerful then that's your opinion.

You can look at the total proportion of Eldar players showing up and their placing, in most cases, they're placing at the top tables out of proportion to their attendance. You certainly aren't seeing most other armies place anything near the top with anything near the same proportionality.

Again, the top place is so variable that using it as your holy grail of a data point is ridiculous. Having attended my share of events, and even won a few, the "top" place is, more often than not, determined more by either raw luck or someone making a brainfart from amongst the top few. You're over-focusing in a single, highly variable data point, and not really looking at big picture with a much larger sample size and consistent result.

It should also be noted that most large events run house rules that somewhat nerf many of the Eldar's greatest strengths (like Invisibility & D weapons), and they still routinely dominate top placings.

Oh thank god someone else understands this. Tournaments are fun and all but as far as data goes, the games don't get the frequency needed to tell you anything more than basic army tiers after combining several event results. And those results say that right now, eldar are top tier and, at any sizable event, are gunning for the top spots right alongside the other monsters like war convo, flyrant spam, and gladius.

Once those lists work their way through the field and meet each other at the top, the ball is back in the court of player skill, and the gentle hand of the dice gods. Something as simple as losing the rolloff for picking first turn can mean the end for armies at that level.

Aye, that "top spot" is super variable, I remember getting knocked out of contention in one event because a Daemon Prince couldn't land a single wound out of 6 attacks needing 3's to hit and 2's to wound on a 1 wound warboss.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
OK. If I've done the maths right... assuming a similar offensive profile to an Imperial Knight...

I can kill it in 298 points, in a vacuum, assuming assault range.

On the other hand, it requires mixing and matching units.

Two units of Repentia with an extra Repentia and two priests each. put out 40 S6 AP1 attacks, dealing an average of 6 wounds due to rerolling to hit and to wound on account of the Priests. Sacrificing the Sister Superior and one Priest from each squad to the WK's attacks (Rerollable 6++ and 4++, even if they lose the save rerolls after the priest dies).

The problem with this unit is a wraithknight will take one look at it, go "NOPE" and just run away. It's so much faster than you that you can't really catch it either.
Eldar have a lot of weapons that will remove this type of unit. Avengers do okay, WS, Scat Bikes, Warp Spiders...Spiders and Bikes, and often 2 WS, are seen in most competitive lists, so we can't assume the eldar player won't have them. The WK just has to handle the tough units that the spiders and bikers struggle against, which it does really well.

Good counters are things like Grav cents/grav bikers. They are fast and possess enough weapons to destroy the knight quickly if they roll well. The cents, if taken in a star, can deep strike in and re-roll to hit and wound, easily obliterating the thing. But the centstar is possibly the best...combo?...in the entire game currently, it rarely loses to anything. Even units like orks it does okay against, since it just pumps out so many shots between the bolters and the grav weapons. Marine armies generally have other options for removing hordes anyway.

TWC cav might do it, depends on the loadout and how many SS and high strength weapons they take, because he's IDing them each, and the wraith knights loadout can include an invul save. I believe each wolf causes ~1 wound assuming a 5++ invul and having a power fist equivalent. The wraith knight, however, can kill a few before they swing the good weapons, so it's a toss up over who will win. This is assuming the obligatory 20 scat bikes don't fire into the wolves and ignore the SS.

I did say 'in a vacuum and assuming assault range'.

To make it work in real terms, you'd need to park them in a couple of land raiders, which pushes them back above the 300 point mark, and at that point you make as well max out both squads and guarrantee the kill.

Even the land raiders wouldn't work very well, as the knight can easily remove 2-3 land raiders before turn 3, when you'd be able to assault it. Not to mention Hawks or fire dragons.

Are Repentias considered a competitive choice? I don't think I've ever seen them on the table before, in pretty much any edition, but sisters are not a popular army around here.

Repentia aren't competitive for exactly the reasons you're naming. They have an insane damage output (Hatred, WS4, S6 AP1 Armourbane with 4 attacks each, although at I1) for 17 ppm, but they're nigh impossible to get anywhere - they lose Fleet if you give them a priest, and they're T3 models with nought but a 6++ invulnerable to keep them on the table.

If you get them into combat, there is almost nothing better for making things dead with that profile - two Priests and a Mistress give them one wound of rerollable 3+/6++ and two wounds of rerollable 4++ before they start losing combat effectiveness, even without their 3++ once-per-game Feel no Pain - but getting them there is a nightmare.

text removed.

reds8n

 Vaktathi wrote:
It should also be noted that most large events run house rules that somewhat nerf many of the Eldar's greatest strengths (like Invisibility & D weapons), and they still routinely dominate top placings.

Still, for under 300 points there isn't much that is as points efficient, even with nerfs.

 Cytharai wrote:

As a jump gargantuan monstrous creature the Wraithknight doesn't get slowed by terrain and auto-passes terrain checks.

To my knowledge, gargantuans only have move through cover, and jump doesn't mean you get to bypass having to make your terrain move distance roll. You can jump over terrain, but if you start in it you're still rolling for distance. Our local FAQ rules that GMC roll three dice, double the highest for their move through cover distance.

Jump units have to make dangerous terrain checks if they start/end in terrain. If they still had to make a roll for their move distance, that would be absolutely stupid. I don't have access to my rulebook at the moment, but I am 99% sure jump units aren't slowed by terrain, they just make dangerous checks. It's in that movement table near the index.

MC's and GC's have move through cover. No dangerous terrain check either. A jump mc literally moves at max distance at all times with no downsides except for I1 in assault.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I think it has more to do with the fact that they really don't sacrifice anything. They're incredibly mobile, have tons of firepower, and in most cases, aren't any easier to kill or particularly any less numerous than their foes. They do firepower, mobility, and resiliency each in turn as well as anyone else without needing to sacrifice, which, is not really "how things should be"

Add to that the fact that most of the "counters" suggested use units that ignore Toughness entirely to wound the Wraithknight, attacking either against Initiative, Armor saves, or using D-weapons. Other armies used to have such a method... it was Poisoned, which Gargantuan MCs are almost immune to. Having your GMC murdered by 4+ poison attacks that grant saves was not okay but dying to 3+ AP2 grav attacks is fine. Psychic Shriek is perhaps the most common source of multiple ignores Toughness wounds but a lot of luck is required to pull it off, as well as somehow getting the caster within 18" of it without it running away. Volume of fire is expensive and Powerfist spam blob can be obliterated by one of its Stomps. Heck, even the Thunderwolf Cavalry will be attacking at I1 and must pray that it doesn't get stomped into oblivion. They may take out the Wraithknight with them but at a heavy price and only after it has already done several D-shots worth of harm.

Truly an excellent unit with almost no reason not to take one, leading to 5 Wraithknight lists with Warhost detachment shenanigans.

 Arkaine wrote:


Truly an excellent unit with almost no reason not to take one, leading to 5 Wraithknight lists with Warhost detachment shenanigans.

/barf
I saw a guy trying to play a game with that, no one would really go through with it or try to get him to change his list once he told him what he was going to use.

notredameguy10 wrote:
Show me another MC/GC that is as survivable for the points: T8, 6W, 3+,(5++), 5+++.
Show me another MC/GC that has 2 Str D shots with decent range each turn for the same points.

You are the ONLY person i know that doesn't think the WK is undercosted... and its kind of funny

A tyranid scythed heriodule has the same defensive stats and costs 240 more in points. I don't think its extra attacks or its flamer weapon really justifies that many extra points. Pretty much everyone thinks that the WK need an approx 100 point increase at minimum. If you don't see that then you're just being incredulous to troll people.

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:

As a jump gargantuan monstrous creature the Wraithknight doesn't get slowed by terrain and auto-passes terrain checks.

To my knowledge, gargantuans only have move through cover, and jump doesn't mean you get to bypass having to make your terrain move distance roll. You can jump over terrain, but if you start in it you're still rolling for distance. Our local FAQ rules that GMC roll three dice, double the highest for their move through cover distance.

Jump units have to make dangerous terrain checks if they start/end in terrain. If they still had to make a roll for their move distance, that would be absolutely stupid. I don't have access to my rulebook at the moment, but I am 99% sure jump units aren't slowed by terrain, they just make dangerous checks. It's in that movement table near the index.

Right. Jump units not using their jump packs roll 2d6-2 for their difficult terrain roll. You can use a jump pack to move 12 in the move phase, OR re-roll charge distance in the assault phase, not both. So what I had said before, was that I would be having to make distance rolls coming out of terrain if I wanted to charge something, assuming I wanted to keep the re-roll for charge distance.

A tyranid scythed heriodule has the same defensive stats and costs 240 more in points. I don't think its extra attacks or its flamer weapon really justifies that many extra points. Pretty much everyone thinks that the WK need an approx 100 point increase at minimum. If you don't see that then you're just being incredulous to troll people.

Kinda hilarious right? My bio-titan is sitting over there like "hey guys, my minimal firepower and ability to get mulched by grav is totally worth the 1000 points right?"

 Cytharai wrote:

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:

As a jump gargantuan monstrous creature the Wraithknight doesn't get slowed by terrain and auto-passes terrain checks.

To my knowledge, gargantuans only have move through cover, and jump doesn't mean you get to bypass having to make your terrain move distance roll. You can jump over terrain, but if you start in it you're still rolling for distance. Our local FAQ rules that GMC roll three dice, double the highest for their move through cover distance.

Jump units have to make dangerous terrain checks if they start/end in terrain. If they still had to make a roll for their move distance, that would be absolutely stupid. I don't have access to my rulebook at the moment, but I am 99% sure jump units aren't slowed by terrain, they just make dangerous checks. It's in that movement table near the index.

Right. Jump units not using their jump packs roll 2d6-2 for their difficult terrain roll. You can use a jump pack to move 12 in the move phase, OR re-roll charge distance in the assault phase, not both. So what I had said before, was that I would be having to make distance rolls coming out of terrain if I wanted to charge something, assuming I wanted to keep the re-roll for charge distance.

A tyranid scythed heriodule has the same defensive stats and costs 240 more in points. I don't think its extra attacks or its flamer weapon really justifies that many extra points. Pretty much everyone thinks that the WK need an approx 100 point increase at minimum. If you don't see that then you're just being incredulous to troll people.

Kinda hilarious right? My bio-titan is sitting over there like "hey guys, my minimal firepower and ability to get mulched by grav is totally worth the 1000 points right?"

The problem with your final sentiment is that if you had instead spent 1000 points on gaunts, the grav would be almost entirely wasted. So the Marine players have a dilemma: To grav or not to grav?

Sadly, the way their armies are laid out, they usually pick grav. So punish them for it and take 1000 points of 6+ saves!

The problem with your final sentiment is that if you had instead spent 1000 points on gaunts, the grav would be almost entirely wasted. So the Marine players have a dilemma: To grav or not to grav?

Sadly, the way their armies are laid out, they usually pick grav. So punish them for it and take 1000 points of 6+ saves!

Haha right? I need to figure out a way to move that many gaunts within the time constraints of tournament play