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 Ashiraya wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Just so I can join in, what are the defensive parameters on a wraithknight?

I think it can also put its toe in area terrain to get a cover save, but I am not up to date on the cover rules.

Sadly yes, that is the rules

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Just so I can join in, what are the defensive parameters on a wraithknight?

T8 W6, 3+ armour, can go for the melee loadout (free) to get a 5++. GMC with all that comes (takes d3 extra wounds instead of being IDed, FNP, poison and sniper wounds on 6+, etc.)

I think it can also put its toe in area terrain to get a cover save, but I am not up to date on the cover rules.

Though if it goes with melee loadout, charging into difficult terrain would put it at Initiative 1. You get a free shot at it with any weapons before dying. The melee loadout is not much different from an Imperial Knight so the ranged one wins being one of the cheapest sources of D.

Ranged wraithknight on its own has two shots, hitting on 3+, and if those two shots hit, can possibly kill two models. Although giving up an invuln save to kill two models at range seems pretty meh to me.

Wraithknight easy

Trasvi wrote:
Nurgle Daemon Prince, Wings, Mastery Level 3, 2x Greater rewards, 3x rolls on biomancy. He clocks in at 315pts. If he gets either either Fleshbane or Iron Arm he'll mince the wraithknight in one turn of combat. Eg in a tournament the other day - I have 9 attacks at initiative 11, hitting on 3's with re-rolls, 2's with re-rolls to wound, AP2 instant death. 15 wounds on average.

Questions.

How did you attack at Initiative 11?
Where did you get re-roll To Hit?

I'm assuming you had Warp Speed and Iron Arm up (otherwise how did you get 9 attacks and re-roll To Wound) I'm also assuming you got Fleshbane/Armourbane and a Plague weapon (whatever the Nurgle one is for Greater Rewards).

 Happyjew wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
Nurgle Daemon Prince, Wings, Mastery Level 3, 2x Greater rewards, 3x rolls on biomancy. He clocks in at 315pts. If he gets either either Fleshbane or Iron Arm he'll mince the wraithknight in one turn of combat. Eg in a tournament the other day - I have 9 attacks at initiative 11, hitting on 3's with re-rolls, 2's with re-rolls to wound, AP2 instant death. 15 wounds on average.

Questions.

How did you attack at Initiative 11?
Where did you get re-roll To Hit?

I'm assuming you had Warp Speed and Iron Arm up (otherwise how did you get 9 attacks and re-roll To Wound) I'm also assuming you got Fleshbane/Armourbane and a Plague weapon (whatever the Nurgle one is for Greater Rewards).

Yeah, iron arm, warp speed, touch of uncreation, balesword and hatred (warlord trait). Warp speed is +3 I as well so I was I11 (well 10, but hyperbole is fun). The perfect combo, you're unlikely to get everything, but you have a 66% chance of iron arm OR fleshbane which combined with guaranteed balesword means wounding on 2's or 3's with rerolls and instant death.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cytharai wrote:
Ranged wraithknight on its own has two shots, hitting on 3+, and if those two shots hit, can possibly kill two models. Although giving up an invuln save to kill two models at range seems pretty meh to me.

When you say '2 models' it makes it sound like 2 marines: if you're shooting D-cannon at them then it is pretty meh.
When you consider that individual models can cost 300+ points it paints a different picture. A dead AV14 vehicle each turn. A dead daemon prince. A dead Wraithknight or Imperial knight after 2 turns...

Possibly the best part about Eldar's D-weapons is that they make the perfect complement to Eldar's scatterlasers. Scatbikes can shred any infantry or transports, while D-weapons are perfect against AV13/14/SH/MC/GMC's.

 Cytharai wrote:
Ranged wraithknight on its own has two shots, hitting on 3+, and if those two shots hit, can possibly kill two models. Although giving up an invuln save to kill two models at range seems pretty meh to me.

Well, when they can potentially kill anything short of a Reaver titan, they're pretty powerful.

Trasvi wrote:

When you say '2 models' it makes it sound like 2 marines: if you're shooting D-cannon at them then it is pretty meh.
When you consider that individual models can cost 300+ points it paints a different picture. A dead AV14 vehicle each turn. A dead daemon prince. A dead Wraithknight or Imperial knight after 2 turns...

That was exactly my intention though. Two wraithcannons vs a gladius strike force... grats, you might kill two rhinos a turn (and if you use a comped D table, like any sane player does, that's not even a guarantee). So then those two free rhinos spew out their tac marines, of which you can kill two of in the next shooting phase. I get that two d-cannons against high point cost targets do well, but against everything else, well...

A dead AV14 vehicle per turn can be achieved just as easily by a grav squad, or a haywire unit, or really any of the dedicated armor killing units these days.

Just playing devils advocate here, I realize that Wraithknights are a pain, but when I look at the rest of my Eldar, I have nothing else that comes close to being as durable (short of a seer council that rolls the right psychic powers).

 Ashiraya wrote:
Let's do the maths to see how many CSM with Krak grenades it will take to kill it.

324 CSM should suffice if my maths hold. That's 4212 points. Efficiency!

Kriegsmen do it for about half the points, ah!

 Arkaine wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
1 hemlock can do 6 wounds to a WK in one turn and that's just 185pts lol 5 man wraithgaurd unit with a WWP will kill it in one turn. Lol this game revolves around tactics and building your army list is one of the biggest tactics, if your scared that a WK will beat you then make a list to deal with it or find a way to play around it it's not hard, instead of sitting there and crying wolf every time something comes out. The game has evolved and so should everyone else. Every codex is going to get cranked to 11, and if people can't get used to it the. Either play with your fiends and make up rules (boring) or you test yourself and become a better player

So again, you are giving examples from what most people consider the most broken codex. Anyone can find a specific unit to kill any other unit. Thats not the point. The point is comparing a unit, the wraith knight, to other units in an army for its points cost.

you think eldar is more broken then tau... Bahahaha now I know your joking

It's been more broken than Tau for years. Notice how when Tau dominated the tournament scenes it was by taking Eldar allies. But by all means, continue to give examples from Eldar on how to counter Eldar's best unit.

I asked a simple question above. Tell me what under 300 pt units can kill a Wraithknight, what is point effective next to its cost. We've had less than a handful of those, most of them just over the point cost and many others that triple it.

3 centurions in a pod will take care of the Wk.

Already been, anything else than Eldar stuff and Cents can do it?

Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

 Cytharai wrote:
Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

there's no point in telling them man, they just don't understand.

Dman137 wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:
Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

there's no point in telling them man, they just don't understand.

Thats not the point. Every single unit in the game has other units that can beat it. i.e. Rock, Paper, Scissor.

The point is for less than 300 points, there isn't another model/unit out there that will do everything it can do.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:
Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

there's no point in telling them man, they just don't understand.

Thats not the point. Every single unit in the game has other units that can beat it. i.e. Rock, Paper, Scissor.

The point is for less than 300 points, there isn't another model/unit out there that will do everything it can do.

there's just no pleasing you, we can all give you units but you just can't get it threw your head that the WK isent the best unit (most op)

 Bobthehero wrote:
Already been, anything else than Eldar stuff and Cents can do it?

Imperial guard lascannons work fine. Meltaguns too, plasma, anything with rending.

Stick Tigerius in a blob squad, now all your lasguns have rending, ignores cover and reroll hits.

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:
Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

there's no point in telling them man, they just don't understand.

Thats not the point. Every single unit in the game has other units that can beat it. i.e. Rock, Paper, Scissor.

The point is for less than 300 points, there isn't another model/unit out there that will do everything it can do.

there's just no pleasing you, we can all give you units but you just can't get it threw your head that the WK isent the best unit (most op)

Show me another MC/GC that is as survivable for the points: T8, 6W, 3+,(5++), 5+++.
Show me another MC/GC that has 2 Str D shots with decent range each turn for the same points.

You are the ONLY person i know that doesn't think the WK is undercosted... and its kind of funny

The wraithknight is garbage. Its too many points in one place. The D shots aren't blast so its not doing a great deal of damage. And any good player can kill it in 1 turn. Christ my marines can kill 3 or 4 consistently.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:
Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

there's no point in telling them man, they just don't understand.

Thats not the point. Every single unit in the game has other units that can beat it. i.e. Rock, Paper, Scissor.

The point is for less than 300 points, there isn't another model/unit out there that will do everything it can do.

there's just no pleasing you, we can all give you units but you just can't get it threw your head that the WK isent the best unit (most op)

Show me another MC/GC that is as survivable for the points: T8, 6W, 3+,(5++), 5+++.
Show me another MC/GC that has 2 Str D shots with decent range each turn for the same points.

You are the ONLY person i know that doesn't think the WK is undercosted... and its kind of funny

you never asked if I felt it was under costed, you're the one going off on how amazing it is and nothing in this game stands a chance lol like do you even play 40k or just read the fluff.? Sure the WK should be a bit more expensive if say keep it at 295 but you have to pay for the D guns. (40pts each seems fair) but by no means is the WK the most Op hint in the game, if you played competitively you would no that, so pull up your socks and find ways to beat it. Common man it's a pretty easy game to play just have to use your Brain

It gets a 5++ or ranged D. I don't know where these magical Wraithknights are coming from that have both at the same time...

 Cytharai wrote:
It gets a 5++ or ranged D. I don't know where these magical Wraithknights are coming from that have both at the same time...

its all in his head man, it's all in his head lol

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:
Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

there's no point in telling them man, they just don't understand.

Thats not the point. Every single unit in the game has other units that can beat it. i.e. Rock, Paper, Scissor.

The point is for less than 300 points, there isn't another model/unit out there that will do everything it can do.

there's just no pleasing you, we can all give you units but you just can't get it threw your head that the WK isent the best unit (most op)

Show me another MC/GC that is as survivable for the points: T8, 6W, 3+,(5++), 5+++.
Show me another MC/GC that has 2 Str D shots with decent range each turn for the same points.

You are the ONLY person i know that doesn't think the WK is undercosted... and its kind of funny

you never asked if I felt it was under costed, you're the one going off on how amazing it is and nothing in this game stands a chance lol like do you even play 40k or just read the fluff.? Sure the WK should be a bit more expensive if say keep it at 295 but you have to pay for the D guns. (40pts each seems fair) but by no means is the WK the most Op hint in the game, if you played competitively you would no that, so pull up your socks and find ways to beat it. Common man it's a pretty easy game to play just have to use your Brain

Man, i can really see were you get your username from...

If YOU played competitively, you would know that elder lists with wraithknights have been dominating tournaments


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cytharai wrote:
It gets a 5++ or ranged D. I don't know where these magical Wraithknights are coming from that have both at the same time...

Thats why i put the inv. save in parentheses

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:
Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

there's no point in telling them man, they just don't understand.

Thats not the point. Every single unit in the game has other units that can beat it. i.e. Rock, Paper, Scissor.

The point is for less than 300 points, there isn't another model/unit out there that will do everything it can do.

there's just no pleasing you, we can all give you units but you just can't get it threw your head that the WK isent the best unit (most op)

Show me another MC/GC that is as survivable for the points: T8, 6W, 3+,(5++), 5+++.
Show me another MC/GC that has 2 Str D shots with decent range each turn for the same points.

You are the ONLY person i know that doesn't think the WK is undercosted... and its kind of funny

you never asked if I felt it was under costed, you're the one going off on how amazing it is and nothing in this game stands a chance lol like do you even play 40k or just read the fluff.? Sure the WK should be a bit more expensive if say keep it at 295 but you have to pay for the D guns. (40pts each seems fair) but by no means is the WK the most Op hint in the game, if you played competitively you would no that, so pull up your socks and find ways to beat it. Common man it's a pretty easy game to play just have to use your Brain

Man, i can really see were you get your username from...

If YOU played competitively, you would know that elder lists with wraithknights have been dominating tournaments


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cytharai wrote:
It gets a 5++ or ranged D. I don't know where these magical Wraithknights are coming from that have both at the same time...

Thats why i put the inv. save in parentheses

bags that's why eldar hasn't won a major event yet lmao please tell me one event they won.

Seriously, the last time I played a wraithknight I killed it with a hemlock.

Im trying not to be sarcastic but you guys are making it difficult. Imperials have zero excuses. Tau have zero excuses. Really the only one that has difficulty with wraithknights is Nids and Orks, and even then you just have to focus fire. Its not difficult. Big point sink units like the WK are a liability in this game.

What I think is the most OP model? Probably the dark shroud, 2+ rerollable cover standard and buffs your army incredibly. Sure ignores cover is a thing but you'd be surprised at the number of people that still don't take it.

Another OP model? Flyrants, very difficult to deal with and can be spammed like no tomorrow. Mawlocs are up there too with their amazing ability to counter invisibility, and snipe out characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:


If YOU played competitively, you would know that elder lists with wraithknights have been dominating tournaments

What tournaments?

Daemons, Nids, and dark angels are winning. Eldar are doing well because the book is great, but they aren't winning events.

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:
Well, grav in any of its forms can do it. Anything with fleshbane or rending. Things that wound automatically regardless of toughness (ex: skitarii radium weapons). Wolfstar/superfriends in CC.

there's no point in telling them man, they just don't understand.

Thats not the point. Every single unit in the game has other units that can beat it. i.e. Rock, Paper, Scissor.

The point is for less than 300 points, there isn't another model/unit out there that will do everything it can do.

there's just no pleasing you, we can all give you units but you just can't get it threw your head that the WK isent the best unit (most op)

Show me another MC/GC that is as survivable for the points: T8, 6W, 3+,(5++), 5+++.
Show me another MC/GC that has 2 Str D shots with decent range each turn for the same points.

You are the ONLY person i know that doesn't think the WK is undercosted... and its kind of funny

you never asked if I felt it was under costed, you're the one going off on how amazing it is and nothing in this game stands a chance lol like do you even play 40k or just read the fluff.? Sure the WK should be a bit more expensive if say keep it at 295 but you have to pay for the D guns. (40pts each seems fair) but by no means is the WK the most Op hint in the game, if you played competitively you would no that, so pull up your socks and find ways to beat it. Common man it's a pretty easy game to play just have to use your Brain

Man, i can really see were you get your username from...

If YOU played competitively, you would know that elder lists with wraithknights have been dominating tournaments


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cytharai wrote:
It gets a 5++ or ranged D. I don't know where these magical Wraithknights are coming from that have both at the same time...

Thats why i put the inv. save in parentheses

bags that's why eldar hasn't won a major event yet lmao please tell me one event they won.

The top 2 overall ranked people are both elder players. As well as rank 5.

Powerfists & Psyckers 2 was won by elder (and 3rd place as well)
West Coast Club Challenge was won by eldar
The Storm Surges was won by elder
Jolt Games ITC was won by elder

That was in the last month alone

Imperial Guard Platoon.

It is so OP, GW isn't buffing it at all for the next IG Codex.

None of those are major GTs lmao sure eldar place well but they don't win big, always the bridesmaid never the bride.
Who won LVO.? Who won BAO.? Adepticon.? DaboyzGT.? I'll give you a clue it ease the eldar lol

Last weekends tourney had Gladius strike force and Superfriends with summoning at the top table. Second table was Eldar scatbikes / seer council / WK vs AdMech with BA allies. Next tables were all tau and war convocation (my Eldar wound up lower-middle of the field). Anecdotal evidence sure, but in our experience Eldar has been about even with other armies shenanigans.

 Cytharai wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

When you say '2 models' it makes it sound like 2 marines: if you're shooting D-cannon at them then it is pretty meh.
When you consider that individual models can cost 300+ points it paints a different picture. A dead AV14 vehicle each turn. A dead daemon prince. A dead Wraithknight or Imperial knight after 2 turns...

That was exactly my intention though. Two wraithcannons vs a gladius strike force... grats, you might kill two rhinos a turn (and if you use a comped D table, like any sane player does, that's not even a guarantee). So then those two free rhinos spew out their tac marines, of which you can kill two of in the next shooting phase. I get that two d-cannons against high point cost targets do well, but against everything else, well...

A dead AV14 vehicle per turn can be achieved just as easily by a grav squad, or a haywire unit, or really any of the dedicated armor killing units these days.

Just playing devils advocate here, I realize that Wraithknights are a pain, but when I look at the rest of my Eldar, I have nothing else that comes close to being as durable (short of a seer council that rolls the right psychic powers).

I'm not sure what you're saying here...

If you kill all the high value targets with your D-cannons and you're left shooting at low value things... you're in a fantastic situation anyway and you've probably already won? You can still go around stomping things. In which case you've also run out of targets that really need to be hit with a D-weapon or targets which have a good chance of hurting you, so your native S10 + T8 + stomp is good enough to kill a unit per turn with impunity for the remainder of the game.
The purpose of single-shot ranged D is to take out those high value targets: but then the Wraithknight ALSO possesses the speed, durability and combat ability to function when its optimal targets are dead.

To me, the tradeoff between 5++ and 2 ranged D is easy. Its still 2 more models you kill at range than otherwise (plus you have scatterlasers as well if you really want some more combat punch). Bear in mind that the Wraithknight still benefits from 'toe-in-cover' so it can have 4+ cover saves a lot of the time.
The times when a Wraithknight is under attack, and its combination of T8, 3+, FNP and possibly 5+/4+ cover are not going to save it, but having a 5+ invulnerable will, seem pretty small to me. On the other hand, the times when 2 D-shots can remove an enemy Imperial Knight / Wraithknight / Stormsurge/ Riptide / landraider / etc / etc seem to be in the 'more often than not' category.



RE: Eldar winning tournaments.
The question was 'what is the most OP unit'. Eg, single unit from a single codex. Not which army is doing the best. Which is why I said its a dodgy question in the first place but...
ARMIES are doing well because they manage to stack a huge number of buffs / free points and roll from there. Eg Superfriends with 10 USRs that were never meant to be seen together. Daemons with 2++++s and a dozen free units. War convocation with 500pts of upgrades. Marines with infinity objective secured units. But these are all armies working together.

Eldar are still a force to be reckoned with on the tabletop and they can obviously compete in the top 3 or 4 spots.

If you don't give your WK an invuln, you're going to be limited to hugging ruins the entire game. If you want to get those S10 attacks and stomps in, you have to leave ruins. When you're exiting and entering terrain you are attacking at I1 and having to roll move distance. Once you're out in the open, you're mulched by... well all the stuff we've already listed in this thread. Last time I played I was taking 5++/5+++ saves the majority of the time with my sword and board Wraithknight.

The point of my previous comment was, what if the enemy has no high value targets? If they just have a bunch of single wound stuff, or properly hide their high value stuff in a unit that can soak wounds, that Str D counts for nothing. Plinking off two wolves from a superfriends star isn't exactly the best use of wraithcannons, and that wolfstar will pulverize you in CC.

As for my vote on best unit in the game right now... I would have to say Stormsurges scare me the most. They're not the most durable, but an anchored Stormsurge has massive kill potential at high range. Unfortunately I haven't gotten to play against any yet :(