Howdy. Formation is coming out in Mont'ka. Essentially, the formation allows any remaining members of a unit to enter reserves and be brought back to full strength.
So if you disembark drones, and then enter reserves are they still replaced?
What if one drone was destroyed; Do you come back with one drone ?
This potentially could allow you to get a lot of free drones over the course.
Yes, but that's also under-utilizing the potency of the formation.
If you have a unit of 5 Pirahna that drop off drones, then get killed down to 1 Pirahna, then that one leaves the board: 5 Pirahna come back with 10 drones.
DarknessEternal wrote: Yes, but that's also under-utilizing the potency of the formation.
If you have a unit of 5 Pirahna that drop off drones, then get killed down to 1 Pirahna, then that one leaves the board: 5 Pirahna come back with 10 drones.
Yeah I wasn't asking for some crazy drone OP cheese. Haha
Mainly wanted to understand how the rule would work. Thanks for the comment!
Yes, it does appear that when played correctly, this formation can deliver up to 32 free drones and 32 serker missile per turn that they arrive on the table. It's the "daemon factory" of Tau, it's a ... Drone Factory.
The current tactic people are discussing is combining these guys with the Drone Network formation for masses of BS3 drones with shared special rules.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Yes, it does appear that when played correctly, this formation can deliver up to 32 free drones and 32 serker missile per turn that they arrive on the table. It's the "daemon factory" of Tau, it's a ... Drone Factory.
The current tactic people are discussing is combining these guys with the Drone Network formation for masses of BS3 drones with shared special rules.
SJ
I feel like a mix of Drone Factories and Missile Factories is probably correct within the formation. The Drone Network is already a good deal, giving you almost strictly better Pathfinders, but they also just buff your army in other ways, now that's a good deal.
Honestly, almost all of the formations in the Mont'ka seem rather strong, even the Ethereal one.
I'm definitely going to build an army that all it does it spawn bin-lids. If that's all I use (i.e. minimal on everything else, and only use the drones) it might be a pretty ridiculous army to play with/against, but not necessarily OP.
Tinkrr wrote: The way it's written is that they just get infinite free drones and seekers, and you can make the argument they even regain lost Piranhas.
Why would the Piranhas not be regained? They are part of the unit and unit back to full strength means just that. There is nothing ambiguous about that.
Tinkrr wrote: The way it's written is that they just get infinite free drones and seekers, and you can make the argument they even regain lost Piranhas.
Why would the Piranhas not be regained? They are part of the unit and unit back to full strength means just that. There is nothing ambiguous about that.
Is someone actually arguing otherwise?
You know how it is. Everytime any new rule comes out it's either totally worthless or ZOMG OP CHEEZ.
Yes, this formation can effectively spawn additional Drones. Yes, this formation can effectively resurrect destroyed or otherwise lost Piranhas. No, this will never result in infinite drones or Piranhas. Saying that it does is being a little Hyperbolic.
The reality of the situation is that you're likely to use this ability at most a couple of times. If you do, you'll have to remain relatively close to a board edge. A savvy player will simply keep towards the middle of the board or use overwhelming firepower/assault to wipe out all five Piranhas. They're pretty easy to kill. Massed Bolter fire can easily take out five. They only have 2 hull points each and it's not exactly like they're AV14.
Can not find anywhere aside from flyers where it says you can't enter from reserves and exit into in the same turn.
The formation says just be within 6" at end of movment. If you take 12 pirahna maxing the 3 squads. They could come on, drop drones and leave. Accumulating to 120 drones over 5 turns.
Grizzyzz wrote: Can not find anywhere aside from flyers where it says you can't enter from reserves and exit into in the same turn.
The formation says just be within 6" at end of movment. If you take 12 pirahna maxing the 3 squads. They could come on, drop drones and leave. Accumulating to 120 drones over 5 turns.
A hilarious tau summoning engine.
Remember that they only have a 2/3 chance of coming back on from Ongoing Reserves in the following turn. Rollings 1s and 2s will mean you get nothing for that turn. There is no guarantee that you'll be able to consistently bring the Piranhas back onto the field.
Also, I'm fairly certain Piranha units are 1-5 and not 1-3. I don't have my Codex handy right now. The Formation also comes with 4 units and not 3. That's 20 Piranhas with 40 Drones being dropped off per turn. That's 200 Drones over 5 turns if you roll well for Reserves.
Theoretically possible, but it's a massively expensive undertaking (the extra Drones cost 6 USD each, or 240 USD per turn) that will only ever let you play one game. I can't see anyone willing to put up with something like this more than once. If you were able to successfully dump your Drones every turn for 5 turns, you'd need to spend 960 USD on Drones at full retail (4 turns, since one turn's worth of Drones comes with the Piranhas).
Grizzyzz wrote: Can not find anywhere aside from flyers where it says you can't enter from reserves and exit into in the same turn.
The formation says just be within 6" at end of movment. If you take 12 pirahna maxing the 3 squads. They could come on, drop drones and leave. Accumulating to 120 drones over 5 turns.
A hilarious tau summoning engine.
Remember that they only have a 2/3 chance of coming back on from Ongoing Reserves in the following turn. Rollings 1s and 2s will mean you get nothing for that turn. There is no guarantee that you'll be able to consistently bring the Piranhas back onto the field.
Also, I'm fairly certain Piranha units are 1-5 and not 1-3. I don't have my Codex handy right now. The Formation also comes with 4 units and not 3. That's 20 Piranhas with 40 Drones being dropped off per turn. That's 200 Drones over 5 turns if you roll well for Reserves.
Theoretically possible, but it's a massively expensive undertaking (the extra Drones cost 6 USD each, or 240 USD per turn) that will only ever let you play one game. I can't see anyone willing to put up with something like this more than once. If you were able to successfully dump your Drones every turn for 5 turns, you'd need to spend 960 USD on Drones at full retail (4 turns, since one turn's worth of Drones comes with the Piranhas).
Grizzyzz wrote: Can not find anywhere aside from flyers where it says you can't enter from reserves and exit into in the same turn.
The formation says just be within 6" at end of movment. If you take 12 pirahna maxing the 3 squads. They could come on, drop drones and leave. Accumulating to 120 drones over 5 turns.
A hilarious tau summoning engine.
Remember that they only have a 2/3 chance of coming back on from Ongoing Reserves in the following turn. Rollings 1s and 2s will mean you get nothing for that turn. There is no guarantee that you'll be able to consistently bring the Piranhas back onto the field.
Also, I'm fairly certain Piranha units are 1-5 and not 1-3. I don't have my Codex handy right now. The Formation also comes with 4 units and not 3. That's 20 Piranhas with 40 Drones being dropped off per turn. That's 200 Drones over 5 turns if you roll well for Reserves.
Theoretically possible, but it's a massively expensive undertaking (the extra Drones cost 6 USD each, or 240 USD per turn) that will only ever let you play one game. I can't see anyone willing to put up with something like this more than once. If you were able to successfully dump your Drones every turn for 5 turns, you'd need to spend 960 USD on Drones at full retail (4 turns, since one turn's worth of Drones comes with the Piranhas).
We all know we would sell limbs for this hobby! Haha!
I never meant for this to be economical or the best ever. More hilarious and confirming how the formation rules work in the same process.
I think I have about 100 drones. You get 2 per pirahna. 2 per firewaarrior.. 6 per crisis .. commanders, etc, huge box of sprus lying around.
Grizzyzz wrote: Can not find anywhere aside from flyers where it says you can't enter from reserves and exit into in the same turn.
The formation says just be within 6" at end of movment. If you take 12 pirahna maxing the 3 squads. They could come on, drop drones and leave. Accumulating to 120 drones over 5 turns.
A hilarious tau summoning engine.
Remember that they only have a 2/3 chance of coming back on from Ongoing Reserves in the following turn. Rollings 1s and 2s will mean you get nothing for that turn. There is no guarantee that you'll be able to consistently bring the Piranhas back onto the field.
Also, I'm fairly certain Piranha units are 1-5 and not 1-3. I don't have my Codex handy right now. The Formation also comes with 4 units and not 3. That's 20 Piranhas with 40 Drones being dropped off per turn. That's 200 Drones over 5 turns if you roll well for Reserves.
Theoretically possible, but it's a massively expensive undertaking (the extra Drones cost 6 USD each, or 240 USD per turn) that will only ever let you play one game. I can't see anyone willing to put up with something like this more than once. If you were able to successfully dump your Drones every turn for 5 turns, you'd need to spend 960 USD on Drones at full retail (4 turns, since one turn's worth of Drones comes with the Piranhas).
Ongoing Reserves: Units which leave the
board during the game enter Ongoing
Reserves, which arrive automatically the
next turn.
Also, the Drone drop happens in the movement phase, and the Rearm Refuel happens at the end of the movement phase, so unless you're going second, you can make it so that your opponent never gets to shoot at your Piranhas unless they have some form of Early Warning Override and enough range to hit your Piranhas. On top of that don't forget your drones are Jet Packed so they can move in the assault phase and more, and they have equal BS as Fire Warriors if you take the Drone Network detachment.
1. Deploy on table edge.
2. During your first Movement phase, detach Drones and then declare that your Piranhas are entering Ongoing Reserves.
3. During each subsequent Movement phase, move the freshly refitted Piranhas onto the board, detach Drones and then declare that your Piranhas are entering Ongoing Reserves.
Novelty tactic, but I can't see anyone actually doing this. You'd need quite a few Piranhas to have enough Drones to be effective. It would also be a very boring game to play.
When talking about balance, things like "not owning enough of ___" or that it's not exactly fun to play, don't really apply as they don't actually address the underlying issue.
A full Piranha squad is 640pts (16 Piranha), if you count drones at 12pts each they spawn 384pts a turn, if you count them as 14pts each they spawn 448pts a turn. They pay for themselves in under two turns and then net you 400pts of units each turn of the game. Even using the lower drone cost, and assuming a game ends in four turns, you've spawned 1536pts of drones... Heck I'll even make it only three turns because you probably won't benefit from spawning on the last turn but rather use your Piranhas themselves if you think the game will end, which means you've only gotten 1152pts of free drone spawns.
Think about how insane that is, you basically double your army in points if you're playing 1850pts, at the low cost of 640pts...
Heck, I'd do this if only for the novelty of filling an entire table to the brim with Drones. It's not like we don't get free drones in like every box we ever buy. Though really I'm probably going to just run 2x squads of 2-3 Piranhas with Seekers, a squad of 5 Piranhas for drones, and then the mandatory one Piranha.
Tinkrr wrote: When talking about balance, things like "not owning enough of ___" or that it's not exactly fun to play, don't really apply as they don't actually address the underlying issue.
A full Piranha squad is 640pts (16 Piranha), if you count drones at 12pts each they spawn 384pts a turn, if you count them as 14pts each they spawn 448pts a turn. They pay for themselves in under two turns and then net you 400pts of units each turn of the game. Even using the lower drone cost, and assuming a game ends in four turns, you've spawned 1536pts of drones... Heck I'll even make it only three turns because you probably won't benefit from spawning on the last turn but rather use your Piranhas themselves if you think the game will end, which means you've only gotten 1152pts of free drone spawns.
Think about how insane that is, you basically double your army in points if you're playing 1850pts, at the low cost of 640pts...
Heck, I'd do this if only for the novelty of filling an entire table to the brim with Drones. It's not like we don't get free drones in like every box we ever buy. Though really I'm probably going to just run 2x squads of 2-3 Piranhas with Seekers, a squad of 5 Piranhas for drones, and then the mandatory one Piranha.
"Not owning enough of ___" is a perfectly valid AND practical concern. Can this be done? Absolutely. Does it require the purchase of TONS of Drones at six bucks a pop? Yes, it does. In your example above, you're spending 192 USD per turn on those 32 Drones. That's a lot of money. Sure, some people will spend money like that on a one trick pony army, but the reality is that it'll be wasted money. If the tactic is unsuccessful, you'll never want to play it again. If the tactic is successful in a casual environment, but unsuccessful in a competitive environment, you'll never get a second game against anyone. If the tactic is successful at the competitive tournament level, you might win a game or two before the meta shifts.
And this tactic will never be successful on a tournament level. Drones are entirely ineffective against anything with AV12 or better. You can completely disarm this tactic by throwing a couple of Objective Secured Troops choices into a handful of Land Raiders. Just cruise over to the objectives and start taking pot shots at the Drones for fun since you don't actually need to kill them and they can't hurt you.
As a final comment, several people have said "but the Drones are effectively free since you get a couple in every Tau box". This isn't entirely true. I've been playing Tau for years and there's no way I could field 32 Drones per turn for 5 straight turns. Even if I could, it would be because I'd spent a TON of money on Tau over the years. Whether paid today or in the past, money is money.
"Not owning enough of ___" is a perfectly valid AND practical concern. Can this be done? Absolutely. Does it require the purchase of TONS of Drones at six bucks a pop? Yes, it does. In your example above, you're spending 192 USD per turn on those 32 Drones. That's a lot of money. Sure, some people will spend money like that on a one trick pony army, but the reality is that it'll be wasted money. If the tactic is unsuccessful, you'll never want to play it again. If the tactic is successful in a casual environment, but unsuccessful in a competitive environment, you'll never get a second game against anyone. If the tactic is successful at the competitive tournament level, you might win a game or two before the meta shifts.
And this tactic will never be successful on a tournament level. Drones are entirely ineffective against anything with AV12 or better. You can completely disarm this tactic by throwing a couple of Objective Secured Troops choices into a handful of Land Raiders. Just cruise over to the objectives and start taking pot shots at the Drones for fun since you don't actually need to kill them and they can't hurt you.
As a final comment, several people have said "but the Drones are effectively free since you get a couple in every Tau box". This isn't entirely true. I've been playing Tau for years and there's no way I could field 32 Drones per turn for 5 straight turns. Even if I could, it would be because I'd spent a TON of money on Tau over the years. Whether paid today or in the past, money is money.
1) why does it have to be used in a tournament to be fun?
2) Cost does matter, but to use that we would have to apply it to everything. Riptide wing is 330 dollars .. heavy support is ~400 minimum... List goes on.
3) with enough drones you can take out all those objective secured units with headbutts and pinning
"Not owning enough of ___" is a perfectly valid AND practical concern.
So many games have tried to use this mentality, and it has failed every time, it's not a valid argument because if people want it, they can obtain it. Balance should always come from the rules, not whether someone is or isn't financially stable.
You do understand that you're not only running 16 Piranhas in your army, right? All 16 Piranhas only cost 640pts, that means you have another 1210pts to spend on anything you'd like. I'm pretty sure that in a tournament getting 1500pts+ of free models is always viable when the investment is so low, even if the models aren't amazing.
Additionally the Piranhas come with the initial 32 drones, so that's already a start. I just got back into the hobby and so far I've gotten a small force together, and let's see I got 6 drones from the Crisis Suit box, another 2 from the individual Suit box, 4 from the two Fire Warrior Boxes, and one from the random Stealth Suit model someone threw in for free. That's only 13 drones, yes, but that's also just the start of my army, I'll still need another Crisis Suit box or two because I want to play the Retaliation Cadre so +12 right there, I'm going to need a Commander which is another drone, and at least two Broadsides which gives me 4 drones I can magnetize so I can use them as missile drones or gun drones, I'd say the same for the Riptide drones I have but I'm using them for something else already. As a whole that's another 30ish drones which is a full spawn, so with a basic army I have two turns worth of making drones at basically no extra investment than what I'd buy anyway.
Now, you can say that's only half of what I need, but you're forgetting that drones will be dying each turn most likely and more so as the game progresses, so those will contribute to the Piranha refuels, and realistically you'll only need about 2.5-3 spawns of drones available, because if you need the full four, you've probably already won.
More so, it's kind of silly to use the 6$ per drone model, seeing as you can go on ebay and get them for 3$ or so, and there's also the fact that other people have tons of drones that you can probably obtain for much cheaper.
"Not owning enough of ___" is a perfectly valid AND practical concern. Can this be done? Absolutely. Does it require the purchase of TONS of Drones at six bucks a pop? Yes, it does. In your example above, you're spending 192 USD per turn on those 32 Drones. That's a lot of money. Sure, some people will spend money like that on a one trick pony army, but the reality is that it'll be wasted money. If the tactic is unsuccessful, you'll never want to play it again. If the tactic is successful in a casual environment, but unsuccessful in a competitive environment, you'll never get a second game against anyone. If the tactic is successful at the competitive tournament level, you might win a game or two before the meta shifts.
And this tactic will never be successful on a tournament level. Drones are entirely ineffective against anything with AV12 or better. You can completely disarm this tactic by throwing a couple of Objective Secured Troops choices into a handful of Land Raiders. Just cruise over to the objectives and start taking pot shots at the Drones for fun since you don't actually need to kill them and they can't hurt you.
As a final comment, several people have said "but the Drones are effectively free since you get a couple in every Tau box". This isn't entirely true. I've been playing Tau for years and there's no way I could field 32 Drones per turn for 5 straight turns. Even if I could, it would be because I'd spent a TON of money on Tau over the years. Whether paid today or in the past, money is money.
1) why does it have to be used in a tournament to be fun?
2) Cost does matter, but to use that we would have to apply it to everything. Riptide wing is 330 dollars .. heavy support is ~400 minimum... List goes on.
3) with enough drones you can take out all those objective secured units with headbutts and pinning
1. I never said it has to be used in a tournament to be fun. I'm not sure where you got that from. In my experience, "loophole" or "one trick pony" lists aren't fun to play against and consequently, aren't fun to play as you run out of willing opponents. Whether or not this is in a tournament setting has little to no impact.
2. Agreed. Many Formations are cost prohibitive for an average player. This isn't really news and is a common theme on this Forum.
3. No amount of Drones is going to take out a Land Raider or the Objective Secured Troops riding inside it.
1. I never said it has to be used in a tournament to be fun. I'm not sure where you got that from. In my experience, "loophole" or "one trick pony" lists aren't fun to play against and consequently, aren't fun to play as you run out of willing opponents. Whether or not this is in a tournament setting has little to no impact.
2. Agreed. Many Formations are cost prohibitive for an average player. This isn't really news and is a common theme on this Forum.
3. No amount of Drones is going to take out a Land Raider or the Objective Secured Troops riding inside it.
Only meant it by you kept saying it wouldn't work in a tournament. And if they have a land raider. Give up the first turn of making drones to blow it sky high with your 12 or more seeker missiles with tank hunter!
And this tactic will never be successful on a tournament level. Drones are entirely ineffective against anything with AV12 or better. You can completely disarm this tactic by throwing a couple of Objective Secured Troops choices into a handful of Land Raiders. Just cruise over to the objectives and start taking pot shots at the Drones for fun since you don't actually need to kill them and they can't hurt you.
Have you ever played in a tournament? You can't tailor your list, and tac squads in land raiders are terrible.
How is it not? Your hypothetical list's strategy would be built around exploiting the ability of this Formation to generate free Drones every turn. If it's not built around having waves of free drones available, then it's probably a little directionless as a list.
How is it not? Your hypothetical list's strategy would be built around exploiting the ability of this Formation to generate free Drones every turn. If it's not built around having waves of free drones available, then it's probably a little directionless as a list.
The free drones are only 640pts, that's a third of your list. The only other support you'd take for those drones is the Drone Network, which isn't that big of an investment as it can just function as your source of Markerlights for the army. After you subtract those two things you have almost 1k points left to spend on your list, whether it be a Hunter Contingent or the FSE using the Retaliation Cadre as a core choice, or even just a basic CAD.
Seriously, if you think a 640pt investment that generates 1500pts of free stuff needs anymore support, that's pretty silly. The direction of the list is pretty simple too, you have what you'd normally bring, and then 1000-1500pts of free drones piled on top for good measure, if you're going all in on the Piranha plan then you're doing it wrong because you're sinking too much into what's otherwise a massive free point generator on its own.
How is it not? Your hypothetical list's strategy would be built around exploiting the ability of this Formation to generate free Drones every turn. If it's not built around having waves of free drones available, then it's probably a little directionless as a list.
How is this different then a demon summoning list? If this is 650 points let's call it.. and its an 1850 tourney you can effectively field a full Dawn Blade Contingent with this formation as an auxiliary.
I would be pretty scared of that to be honest. Or build a FSE CAD or hunter contingent if you want.
Or heck, run the OSC formation to slay all your heavy armor.
Kriswall wrote: This Formation can't generate Marker Drones. Only Gun Drones.
This formation require the Networked Drone formation to work. Also, I was pointing out how asinine it is to assume pulse carbine drones are your only drones in an army.
I wouldn't say it requires the Drone Network, but there's no real reason not to take the Drone Network because of how good it is by itself, and how much it can benefit your drone goodies.
Really, I don't think you even have to think about Seekers, since you'll still have Riptides, Crisis Suits, and more in your list to pick off any large armour targets.
I'm thinking a Retaliation Cadre, a Drone-net, and a Piranah Wing would be fluff fun, actually. Start the network and skimmers on the table, drop drone, marker everything up, and recycle skimmers. Next then drop the Cadre, cycke in more drones, etc. A full on rapid insertion force. Do the drone factory thing for three turns or so, then start dropping seekers and pie plates everywhere.
Pretty much, the FSE with Retaliation, Piranha Wing, and Drone Network will probably be too powerful if left unchanged.
Though I think I'll ultimately not do the 32 drones a turn, since that's a little much, I'll probably just do something like 5 Piranhas in squad one for drones, then two units of 2-3 Piranha that drop drones but also carry seekers since you can't fire seekers and refresh, that way turn one the Drone Network has more utility.
I think I could even sneak in an OSC if I really play around with the points enough, but it'll be pretty tight.
blaktoof wrote: Can't leave the table and or enter it on the same turn.
Um, why not?
Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Flying Gargantuan Creatures all have rules exclusive to their Unit Type that disallows them from leaving the table on the same turn that it entered from Reserve. As skimmers, I'm not entirely sure that the Piranha would have the same restriction.
blaktoof wrote: Can't leave the table and or enter it on the same turn.
Um, why not?
Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Flying Gargantuan Creatures all have rules exclusive to their Unit Type that disallows them from leaving the table on the same turn that it entered from Reserve. As skimmers, I'm not entirely sure that the Piranha would have the same restriction.
That would actually be a really reasonable way to balance this formation, since every other turn does give it more Seeker use while also reducing just how much free stuff it produces. I'm going to wait for the ITC to make a ruling on this issue, and I hope this is the route they take honestly, though as far as RAW goes, if it doesn't specifically mention Skimmers unlike fliers, it means they can do it each turn, which just isn't fair, and this is coming from someone who loves the Piranha model.
Flyers were typically the only units that could leave the table, voluntarily or not. Rules were created to prevent on-again, off-again flyers.
If Piranhas get rules that allow them to voluntarily enter ongoing reserves, they would need a rule that prevents them from pop-tarting in and out of the battlefield, to stop that.
Entering and leaving play in one turn may seem like a blanket rule, but that's only because the units that could previously do so had rules preventing that. "Skyleaping" Swooping Hawks, for example, have rules that prevent them from Skyleaping on the turn they arrive from reserve.
Actually, I really like the every other turn concept, it's a good way to make them produce a lot of free points, while still being reasonable, and it encourages Seeker missiles.
More importantly, it rewards good play so much more than just doing it each turn where it's "Oh, I'll like vomit drones out and put them in reserves because whatever." since it gives you a turn of trying to move and shoot strategically enough to get within 6" of a table edge while still gaining from your movement. Piranhas are pretty fast, being able to deploy drones properly adds a massive skill level that's not make or break, when using this formation, which is always good.
That's really what you want in a game, where something like this can offer a 1-3% advantage if played absolutely optimally, so that it can be fun for weaker players and rewarding for top end players, without creating a massive disparity between the two.
Tinkrr wrote: Actually, I really like the every other turn concept, it's a good way to make them produce a lot of free points, while still being reasonable, and it encourages Seeker missiles.
More importantly, it rewards good play so much more than just doing it each turn where it's "Oh, I'll like vomit drones out and put them in reserves because whatever." since it gives you a turn of trying to move and shoot strategically enough to get within 6" of a table edge while still gaining from your movement. Piranhas are pretty fast, being able to deploy drones properly adds a massive skill level that's not make or break, when using this formation, which is always good.
That's really what you want in a game, where something like this can offer a 1-3% advantage if played absolutely optimally, so that it can be fun for weaker players and rewarding for top end players, without creating a massive disparity between the two.
The way you describe playing the formation and wanting every other turn is already how it works. Since you leave at the end of movement, if you want to shoot that turn you can't leave..so
Turn 1: move, drop drones shoot.
Turn 2 move to edge and leave
Turn 3: enter etc.
If you want a drone engine, then you have that option.
Tinkrr wrote: Actually, I really like the every other turn concept, it's a good way to make them produce a lot of free points, while still being reasonable, and it encourages Seeker missiles.
More importantly, it rewards good play so much more than just doing it each turn where it's "Oh, I'll like vomit drones out and put them in reserves because whatever." since it gives you a turn of trying to move and shoot strategically enough to get within 6" of a table edge while still gaining from your movement. Piranhas are pretty fast, being able to deploy drones properly adds a massive skill level that's not make or break, when using this formation, which is always good.
That's really what you want in a game, where something like this can offer a 1-3% advantage if played absolutely optimally, so that it can be fun for weaker players and rewarding for top end players, without creating a massive disparity between the two.
The way you describe playing the formation and wanting every other turn is already how it works. Since you leave at the end of movement, if you want to shoot that turn you can't leave..so
Turn 1: move, drop drones shoot.
Turn 2 move to edge and leave
Turn 3: enter etc.
If you want a drone engine, then you have that option.
That is if you decide to shoot, which I'd be doing with a limited number of Piranhas armed with Seekers, but if you decide to forgo shooting right now it's just:
Turn 1: Drop drones, leave
Turn 2: Re-enter, drop drones, leave.
Continue for all future turns.
aaron aleong wrote: No one would actually let you play they could leave and come on in the same turn. Seriously.
BRB only restriction for going into ongoing reserves for for flyers. There are many units in the game that have abilities to go into ongoing reserves, such as mawlocs; However, such units also have a clause that say they cannot enter ongoing reserves the same time they come in.
The firestream formation does not have such clause.. probably because as many have said it is an older apoc formation. It is completely possible that at the time it was more clear units could not enter the game and re-enter reserves in the same turn, but that is not currently the case.
I might hope that if someone has the dream to produce 200 drones he might as well find some way to scratch build them themselves. We are talking about a mini that is just a bit more complex then most scenic bases.
Ravenous D wrote: Its also insanely expensive to use this formation so I doubt you'll see it.
For a 1500pt 8 formations of 4 piranhas + 128 additional gun drones is $3000.
Considering that nearly every Tau kit comes with 2+ gun drones, its easy enough to build up the points. Especially as the full cohort of drones is assuming your opponent doesn't kill a single drone all game...
I've got about 70 drones and 10 piranhas at home from my Tau army... I've got to say I'm a bit tempted to try this out.
Ravenous D wrote: Its also insanely expensive to use this formation so I doubt you'll see it.
For a 1500pt 8 formations of 4 piranhas + 128 additional gun drones is $3000.
Considering that nearly every Tau kit comes with 2+ gun drones, its easy enough to build up the points. Especially as the full cohort of drones is assuming your opponent doesn't kill a single drone all game...
I've got about 70 drones and 10 piranhas at home from my Tau army... I've got to say I'm a bit tempted to try this out.
Yeah, you get loads of them I have a couple dozen of the little drone sprues in my pile I've never bothered assembling. And they would be piss-easy to scratch-build.
This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..
Ravenous D wrote:There isn't a chance someone can target that many units. Plus the movement means you'll coat the table.
But lets dial it back.
In its basic 4 Piranha formation its 160pts and generates 24 units in 6 turns. That alone can win objective games.
Drones can't score objectives I thought though? Just want this clarification?
Ceaser wrote:This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..
This ruling has been covered already. BRB flyers may not enter ongoing reserves the same turn they entered. Many of the units you think of have wording in their rules for this situation. This formation however does not and thus can enter and leave at will. As per rolling.... You don't roll for ongoing reserves.. so if they left turn 1 it's auto back turn 2 etc.
Ceaser wrote: This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..
Sorry wrong. They enter automatically from ongoing reserves, drop off drones, and re-enter ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase. Rinse and repeat
Ceaser wrote: This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..
Sorry wrong. They enter automatically from ongoing reserves, drop off drones, and re-enter ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase. Rinse and repeat
How are you moving (coming in from ongoing reserves) which is the movement you are choosing to do with the vehicle. Stopping, choosing to END the movement for that vehicle. Doing an action (dropping off drones) and then choosing to move again (back into reserves) because if this is a loop hole, I sure hope itc gets its hands on it soon
Ceaser wrote: This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..
Sorry wrong. They enter automatically from ongoing reserves, drop off drones, and re-enter ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase. Rinse and repeat
How are you moving (coming in from ongoing reserves) which is the movement you are choosing to do with the vehicle. Stopping, choosing to END the movement for that vehicle. Doing an action (dropping off drones) and then choosing to move again (back into reserves) because if this is a loop hole, I sure hope itc gets its hands on it soon
The ITC has actually brought this up in a video recently, the main issue with the wording is that it doesn't say they move off into reserves, but rather they're just removed and go into the reserves. The movement range of the Piranha is also greater than the required drop off rate, which is strange.
Personally I think if they just FAQ it to be every other turn, it'll be a very solid formation that isn't broken. It would also mean it can focus on Seekers more than just pumping out drones. Oh, and I should mention I don't think it should rebuild lost Piranhas, only wounds on those that survived and their drones/seekers. It's not like Seekers need line of sight for firing with Markerlights, so it shouldn't be that hard to hide your Piranhas tactically.
Ceaser wrote: This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..
Sorry wrong. They enter automatically from ongoing reserves, drop off drones, and re-enter ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase. Rinse and repeat
How are you moving (coming in from ongoing reserves) which is the movement you are choosing to do with the vehicle. Stopping, choosing to END the movement for that vehicle. Doing an action (dropping off drones) and then choosing to move again (back into reserves) because if this is a loop hole, I sure hope itc gets its hands on it soon
The ITC has actually brought this up in a video recently, the main issue with the wording is that it doesn't say they move off into reserves, but rather they're just removed and go into the reserves. The movement range of the Piranha is also greater than the required drop off rate, which is strange.
Personally I think if they just FAQ it to be every other turn, it'll be a very solid formation that isn't broken. It would also mean it can focus on Seekers more than just pumping out drones. Oh, and I should mention I don't think it should rebuild lost Piranhas, only wounds on those that survived and their drones/seekers. It's not like Seekers need line of sight for firing with Markerlights, so it shouldn't be that hard to hide your Piranhas tactically.
See I can agree with that. It allows the formation to still be very solid, while not being broken like invisibility.
Ceaser wrote: This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..
Sorry wrong. They enter automatically from ongoing reserves, drop off drones, and re-enter ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase. Rinse and repeat
How are you moving (coming in from ongoing reserves) which is the movement you are choosing to do with the vehicle. Stopping, choosing to END the movement for that vehicle. Doing an action (dropping off drones) and then choosing to move again (back into reserves) because if this is a loop hole, I sure hope itc gets its hands on it soon
The vehicle can end its movement from coming onto the board within 6" of the board. Attached drones are counted as being embarked passengers, and can thus be dropped off at the end of the movement. Finally, the Firestream has a special rule that if at the end of the movement phase, the unit is within 6" of any board edge, it can be immediately removed (not moved) to ongoing reserves for repair and resupply.
Ceaser wrote: This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..
Sorry wrong. They enter automatically from ongoing reserves, drop off drones, and re-enter ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase. Rinse and repeat
How are you moving (coming in from ongoing reserves) which is the movement you are choosing to do with the vehicle. Stopping, choosing to END the movement for that vehicle. Doing an action (dropping off drones) and then choosing to move again (back into reserves) because if this is a loop hole, I sure hope itc gets its hands on it soon
The vehicle can end its movement from coming onto the board within 6" of it. Attached drones are counted as being embarked passengers, and can thus be dropped off at the end of the movement. Finally, the Firestream has a special rule that if at the end of the movement phase, the unit is withing 6" of any board edge, it can be immediately removed (not moved) to ongoing reserves for repair and resupply.
Thank you, that makes more sense. I thought that people were attempting two movements in one phase. As stated above, an itc faq of every other turn would be a great addition. Would definitely help bring this into a proper power
Ceaser wrote: This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..
Sorry wrong. They enter automatically from ongoing reserves, drop off drones, and re-enter ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase. Rinse and repeat
How are you moving (coming in from ongoing reserves) which is the movement you are choosing to do with the vehicle. Stopping, choosing to END the movement for that vehicle. Doing an action (dropping off drones) and then choosing to move again (back into reserves) because if this is a loop hole, I sure hope itc gets its hands on it soon
The ITC has actually brought this up in a video recently, the main issue with the wording is that it doesn't say they move off into reserves, but rather they're just removed and go into the reserves. The movement range of the Piranha is also greater than the required drop off rate, which is strange.
Personally I think if they just FAQ it to be every other turn, it'll be a very solid formation that isn't broken. It would also mean it can focus on Seekers more than just pumping out drones. Oh, and I should mention I don't think it should rebuild lost Piranhas, only wounds on those that survived and their drones/seekers. It's not like Seekers need line of sight for firing with Markerlights, so it shouldn't be that hard to hide your Piranhas tactically.
See I can agree with that. It allows the formation to still be very solid, while not being broken like invisibility.
Exactly, I'm with you on that, when I first heard about it, it sounded insane. If you go a page or two back in this thread I actually did the math and the free points from the drones is absurd when looking at a four turn game, yet less any game that goes beyond that.
I know I'll still field the formation even if it's every other turn, as it's basically a group of better Skyrays when combined with a Drone Network.
Ceaser wrote: This formation seems fun.. Competitively? Eh. Not the best, or even near it. We will see what the future holds for it. I never have heard of any unit period being able to 'pop tart' in and out on the same turn.. So if this skimmer could enter reserves and leave reserves at the same time, that's weird, as reserves are rolled at the beginning of the players turn and the. Movement is done after reserves have been brought it.. So turn 1 unload and leave.. Turn 2 come back on.. But since you entered, you can't exit.. Turn 3 leave again.. Turn 4 enter.. This is all if you don't roll a 1 or 2 on the reserve roll..
Sorry wrong. They enter automatically from ongoing reserves, drop off drones, and re-enter ongoing reserves at the end of the movement phase. Rinse and repeat
How are you moving (coming in from ongoing reserves) which is the movement you are choosing to do with the vehicle. Stopping, choosing to END the movement for that vehicle. Doing an action (dropping off drones) and then choosing to move again (back into reserves) because if this is a loop hole, I sure hope itc gets its hands on it soon
The ITC has actually brought this up in a video recently, the main issue with the wording is that it doesn't say they move off into reserves, but rather they're just removed and go into the reserves. The movement range of the Piranha is also greater than the required drop off rate, which is strange.
Personally I think if they just FAQ it to be every other turn, it'll be a very solid formation that isn't broken. It would also mean it can focus on Seekers more than just pumping out drones. Oh, and I should mention I don't think it should rebuild lost Piranhas, only wounds on those that survived and their drones/seekers. It's not like Seekers need line of sight for firing with Markerlights, so it shouldn't be that hard to hide your Piranhas tactically.
See I can agree with that. It allows the formation to still be very solid, while not being broken like invisibility.
Judging by the feedback from some very vocal tau players on the coordinated fire issue, I can only imagine the rage if this were nerfed shortly after. Would be entertaining to watch all the "fury of 1000 suns" posts.
"How do you wish to play this formation? Do you want to play it as written or do you want to make it completely useless by not allowing the unit go to reserves on the turn it comes to play, requiring normal reserves roll and to top it off not allow it to come back at full strength?"
"How do you wish to play this formation? Do you want to play it as written or do you want to make it completely useless by not allowing the unit go to reserves on the turn it comes to play, requiring normal reserves roll and to top it off not allow it to come back at full strength?"
ITC, you can use this directly.
That is a bit of a straw man argument as having the unit go into normal reserves is not what was being discussed, or even suggested. The only thing being touched on is if the formation should be allowed to leave the board the same turn it arrives since the other units that could leave the board are prevented from doing so.
Its more that the CF question was incredibly poorly written, IF the intent was to not bias the respondents towards a particular result.
ITC should not vote on this until, unlike CF, some tournaments actually occur to see fi this is an issue. Knee jerk reactions, like CF, dont help the game. (Where was the knee jerk +100 points to a WK, for example?)
It was not a straw man, it was made to help ITC formulate a question to put those whiny Tau players to their proper place!
I would not play it so I'd come and go during the same turn. I don't think it was the intent but it would also not allow me to fire the seeker missiles. That said, I also do not plan to get any Piranhas.
More like "fury of a thousand cheetos stained neckbeards".
Except less than a thousand. Like 20.
CFP was poorly written, and absurdly broken. The ITC call makes for better balanced, and actually competitive, games.
The drone factory isn't that broken. If you are using it, you are also consigning 200ish points of Piranhas to not attack. And you get... a lot of drones. Useful, especially for contesting/fighting/bubblewrapping in your back field. Turn 1 and 2 drones would be good for doing things in your enemies side of the table.
But none of them score, and you can't use missiles or guns on the Piranhas if you want to drone it up.
Additionally, a smart opponent will interceptor the drones when they arrive. Killing 10 drones is a lot easier than killing 5 jinking Piranha. If they succeed, then you've just wasted an entire turn of Piranhas.
The drone factory isn't comparable to CFP. It isn't even as broken as Send In The Next Wave was before the IG forgot their name. It's a powerful tool, yes, but not nearly as stupid broken as, say, 3x double tapping Riptides at BS5, or Darkstrider firing a gunrig and instagibbing EVERYTHING T6 and below, or you know, most of the Eldar book. You have to know how to use it, you can't just set it on the table and win. I don't think it will be called for a nerf.
ITC should not vote on this until, unlike CF, some tournaments actually occur to see fi this is an issue. Knee jerk reactions, like CF, dont help the game. (Where was the knee jerk +100 points to a WK, for example?)
Also, THIS. Playtime will show that no, it isn't that bad.
You guys do know the LVO is only a couple months away, right? The hasty vote and ruling was to give people the ability to build and play test for the LVO correctly, so that they didn't have to re-do their whole game plan the night before if the vote was delayed as some suggest.
So the whole point of the vote was to alter the rules for an army before anyone has even playtested properly - 2 bad bat reps dont count - or had any actual tournament results?
Rushing the vote now was for one reason only, and putting up such an objectively bad question that leads the respondents in one direction naturally also suggests there was only one reason behind the poll.
You dont knee jerk BEFORE you have ANY objective evidence. Thats *very* poor practice. Especially when the actual *known* "real" values for Eldar (what the studio wanted to change the points costs to, but were overruled) units were not errataed in.
Why don't they count as kill points? If they aren't kill points, they aren't a unit. If they aren't a unit, they don't exist. Per the rules.
Because they don't.
Codex: Tau Empire 7e wrote:Drones that started the game attached to a vehicle do not award Victory Points when destroyed.
Hmm this is definitely another to do for the itc. Number 1: make it to where the vehicles can only enter every other turn. Number 2: make drones worth kill points.
Why don't they count as kill points? If they aren't kill points, they aren't a unit. If they aren't a unit, they don't exist. Per the rules.
Because they don't.
Codex: Tau Empire 7e wrote:Drones that started the game attached to a vehicle do not award Victory Points when destroyed.
Hmm this is definitely another to do for the itc. Number 1: make it to where the vehicles can only enter every other turn. Number 2: make drones worth kill points.
I doubt the ITC would change the drone rule as it has deep consequences every Tau vehicle, not just the Firestream, effectively nerfing their intended uses as a disposable body blocker for their Vehicles. If the Firestream drone factory somehow becomes as prevalent as Invisibility, then there may be a case.
At the moment, the guys at Frontline Gaming/ITC think the Firestream is powerful, but the only thing they feel they need to FAQ is if Piranha models come back as well.
There was a thread on that in YMDC. No one could provide support that "unit at full strength" did not mean that the number of piranhas was also included. So again it would not be a FAQ or a rule clarification but a complete rule change.
If they again put that under a popularity vote we know what will happen :(
Naw wrote: There was a thread on that in YMDC. No one could provide support that "unit at full strength" did not mean that the number of piranhas was also included. So again it would not be a FAQ or a rule clarification but a complete rule change.
If they again put that under a popularity vote we know what will happen :(
Can you quote the rule that specifies it's full strength, to include already destroyed vehicles? Specification please, not just the rule that states the units come back at full strength, which rai is obvious they mean what is leaving the table, not things that have been destroyed. When you provide that rule, it will show if the itc does a rules clarification, cause that's what it is, that it'd be a change. But it isn't, I agree the other thing was, this wouldn't be. Don't flatter the tau to much, we are all lucky to have people like Reece who know how to nerf them competitively since gw messed up their wording and the players feel a need to shove their interpretations as fact down our throats
Naw wrote: There was a thread on that in YMDC. No one could provide support that "unit at full strength" did not mean that the number of piranhas was also included. So again it would not be a FAQ or a rule clarification but a complete rule change.
If they again put that under a popularity vote we know what will happen :(
Can you quote the rule that specifies it's full strength, to include already destroyed vehicles? Specification please, not just the rule that states the units come back at full strength, which rai is obvious they mean what is leaving the table, not things that have been destroyed. When you provide that rule, it will show if the itc does a rules clarification, cause that's what it is, that it'd be a change. But it isn't, I agree the other thing was, this wouldn't be. Don't flatter the tau to much, we are all lucky to have people like Reece who know how to nerf them competitively since gw messed up their wording and the players feel a need to shove their interpretations as fact down our throats
In an IG/AM formation (not an IG player, so I don't have the book in front of me) with the exact same wording, it specifically states in parenthesis that the vehicles in the unit that were lost come back as well. The rational is that identical wording has an identical effect on the rules. This will most likely have influence on the ITC group voting on it.
Naw wrote: There was a thread on that in YMDC. No one could provide support that "unit at full strength" did not mean that the number of piranhas was also included. So again it would not be a FAQ or a rule clarification but a complete rule change.
If they again put that under a popularity vote we know what will happen :(
Can you quote the rule that specifies it's full strength, to include already destroyed vehicles? Specification please, not just the rule that states the units come back at full strength, which rai is obvious they mean what is leaving the table, not things that have been destroyed. When you provide that rule, it will show if the itc does a rules clarification, cause that's what it is, that it'd be a change. But it isn't, I agree the other thing was, this wouldn't be. Don't flatter the tau to much, we are all lucky to have people like Reece who know how to nerf them competitively since gw messed up their wording and the players feel a need to shove their interpretations as fact down our throats
A unit that was 5 and is now 3 is not at full strength.
Full strength is just that. missing parts is not full strength.
Naw wrote: There was a thread on that in YMDC. No one could provide support that "unit at full strength" did not mean that the number of piranhas was also included. So again it would not be a FAQ or a rule clarification but a complete rule change.
If they again put that under a popularity vote we know what will happen :(
Can you quote the rule that specifies it's full strength
This is what Mont'ka says about the rule: Rearm and Refuel: If all of the surviving models from a unit in this Formation are within 6" of a table edge at the end of their Movement phase, the unit can enter Ongoing Reserves. When it returns to play, it does so at full strength with any damage repaired and Drones and seeker missiles replaced.
"surviving models from a unit", "the unit can enter Ongoing", "it returns to play", "it does so at full strength". That all point to the unit, not an individual model. So what constitutes of a unit? I have 1 unit of 5 Piranhas. How many did I have at the beginning of the game? Q: When is my unit at full strength? A: When it has the original number of models.
, to include already destroyed vehicles? Specification please, not just the rule that states the units come back at full strength, which rai is obvious they mean what is leaving the table, not things that have been destroyed.
The requirement for being able to leave to Ongoing reserves is that all surviving models from the unit are within 6" of the table. When the unit returns to play, it does so at full strength. The state of the unit is there in the rule, at full strength.
When you provide that rule, it will show if the itc does a rules clarification, cause that's what it is, that it'd be a change. But it isn't, I agree the other thing was, this wouldn't be.
Um no, there's nothing ambiguous in that rule. Care to tell us what your definition for a unit being at full strength means?
Don't flatter the tau to much, we are all lucky to have people like Reece who know how to nerf them competitively since gw messed up their wording and the players feel a need to shove their interpretations as fact down our throats
You are one of the reasons why anything ITC decides should not be a popularity vote.
Naw wrote: There was a thread on that in YMDC. No one could provide support that "unit at full strength" did not mean that the number of piranhas was also included. So again it would not be a FAQ or a rule clarification but a complete rule change.
If they again put that under a popularity vote we know what will happen :(
Can you quote the rule that specifies it's full strength, to include already destroyed vehicles? Specification please, not just the rule that states the units come back at full strength, which rai is obvious they mean what is leaving the table, not things that have been destroyed. When you provide that rule, it will show if the itc does a rules clarification, cause that's what it is, that it'd be a change. But it isn't, I agree the other thing was, this wouldn't be. Don't flatter the tau to much, we are all lucky to have people like Reece who know how to nerf them competitively since gw messed up their wording and the players feel a need to shove their interpretations as fact down our throats
In an IG/AM formation (not an IG player, so I don't have the book in front of me) with the exact same wording, it specifically states in parenthesis that the vehicles in the unit that were lost come back as well. The rational is that identical wording has an identical effect on the rules. This will most likely have influence on the ITC group voting on it.
Herpa freaking-derp. It wasn't IG it was the 6e Apocalypse Tau Firestream formation.
The rule was copy and pasted from the original formation which included the note that lost vehicles were also returned in parenthesis.
Its not like GW has removed clarifying rules for things that they think everyone knows *cough*Gargantuan Creatures firing multiple weapons and Earth Caste Pilot Arrays for Riptides*cough*.
